How Poor is Poor?
There is a lot of talk about widespread poverty in Australia...I would like to point out that for a relatively affluent country like Australia, the meaning of poverty is quite different from the absolute deprivation or subsistence poverty which exists in many developing countries. The World Bank has defined poverty as an inability to attain a minimal standard of living (World Bank, 1990, p.26). This is a general definition which can be applied to different national situations according to the specific meaning given to the concept of a standard of living and how the minimal level is determined.
I feel that to talk of endemic poverty in Australia is an insult to the millions of people overseas experiencing genuine privation...people who have to live in many instances on less that a dollar a day...if they're lucky.
Knowing full well that I will probably receive a bashing for saying this...heck..I will say it anyway...Australia's problem is not poverty but a socially and economically destructive addiction to welfare.
Fleur,
I can recall being not so well off in my early years of employment. Apprentice wages were pitiful then. I had a take home pay of less than $10 a week. My board took a fair slice of that, bus fares for work some more.
Petes Centennial Park was where I wandered to pass time as I had little money to do much more. On the outside looking in.
I can recall being quite hungry at times when the money ran out before payday as it sometimes did.
I was 19 before my situation had any meaningful improvement.
It is not pleasant being poor. I do not reccommend it to anyone.
Take it easy.
SD
I agree with you SD...it's no fun being poor and many people have gone through very hard times...but you are living proof that it does not have to remain that way...from what I've seen in your posts you have managed to bring up a family to be proud of and have achieved...many don't do that instead we see situations where several generations are on welfare.
Funny thing Fleur I cannot recall even hearing of welfare until many years later. It was possibly about way back but I cannot recall any recipients.
I have to admit in my leaner years i often wondered why some tradesmen had such big lunches which they never managed to eat in total, passing the extra sandwich or similar over to me and grumbling that the missus always packed too much lunch for them.
There are a lot of kind people out there, not only did they look after this young blokes hungry belly but his pride as well.
Oft times pride is all you have when you are scratching.
Take it easy.
SD
You are right SD about there being many a kind person in the world...I always remember this story my Dad told. When they left their homeland Germany and settled in Yorkshire there wasn't much work around...so my father then only 17 took himself off to London...got a job as a clerk and moved in with a Welsh family...although they hadn't a lot themselves...the wife always bought extra groceries and would leave them in his room...something he never forgot.
when i started work at a new job in 1962 i earned 5 pound 12 shillings and 6 pence a fortnight. Out of that I paid 5 pound board the bus fares to work plus food did not leave anything.
I had saved a few quid from a previous job in a store which saw me able to at least eat and have an occasional beer.
At no stage did I think I was poor or living in poverty. I accepted that I had to start somewhere and that things would get better , and they did. I had that job for many years and rose up th ranks as far as I wanted to but stopped when the next step up the ladder was not to my liking..
I feel most Australians are lucky but some who suffer events beyond their control can do it tough. I don't look down on them as I do not know their circumstances just as I don't look up to the ones at the top of the ladder as I don't know what they did to get there.
Hasn't my typing improved ? haha , feeling proud :)
I so agree with you Gerry that people have to start somewhere...my father's story is very similar and he told us many a time he never felt poor...he always looked forward.
Yes...there are many whose lives are horribly derailed by circumstances beyond their control...and for those I am thankful we do have a system in place that can help...on the other hand...we have those who just want to abuse the system.
BTW your typing gets top marks...a new computer can work wonders!
Gerry, that is so funny. I earned exactly the same wage when I started work in the NAB in the mail department in Queen street Brisbane.
I was at 15 years of age living in a private hotel in a room the size of a large cupboard. Room for the bed, a small wardrobe at the end and I could lie in bed and touch the wall and my window overlooked the Storey bridge. My parents lived in the country and they entrusted my well being to two ladies who ran the place (they knew them personally). I had very little left over from my wages and breakfast was the only meal provided and I had to go down into Fortitude Valley every night with others who lived there and we ate out every night.
The first year I worked I saved $100; how I did it I do not know but I did. Uniforms were provided thankfully and I only had a few clothes in a suitcase provided by my parents when I began work.
The dole was something unheard of by me and I only found out about it when I was 26 when I arrived home from overseas and had no job. I was on it for about 2 weeks until I started work.
So interesting reading about your early years and how you managed Radish...just goes to show that it can be done. Amazing even with the help some people have today...they find it so difficult to manage...maybe it's because when things are given freely some people tend to expect more.
I guess there are different aspects of poor, and really poor and destitute.
There are people I feel sure who believe the world owes them, and hence willing to live from other's working.
I believe in help until people get through a bad patch and find work. I also believe the rent people pay is often almost as much as the help they receive. Terrible!!!
Third World Countries have desperation, Starvation and hopelessness - yes this really is Poverty at it's absolute worst.
I wonder why all the oranges and other fruit we destroy along with the trees and the amount of surplus wheat etc., is not shipped to these Countries, as this would also be a boon if the Government would pay our Farmers for it.
Couldn't anything be done with our wasted Desert re pipes to carry water and then crops grown and seeds also to give the starving masses to grow their own food?
Wouldn't food be better given to these Countries rather than money, as our Farmers could be paid to grow it, so a double help.
I love your post Phyl...and your description in the first line of the aspects of "poor"...couldn't have said it better. Like you...I believe people should be helped over a bad patch especially if they are themselves trying their utmost to get out of the rut.
It just breaks my heart too when I see all the waste in some countries...ours included...when there are so many dying of starvation. The sad thing is the more one helps...the more help is needed. I honestly believe it's good to teach people to fish...then they can learn to fish for themselves.
Phyl,
Yes like many I have see the hopelessness in some countries.
It will always take more than donations whether it be in money, food, technology or whatever to solve these problems.
In the majority of these countries those that rule do not do so for the betterment of their fellows and until this changes little else will. Money will disappear, food will disappear and so forth.
The culture itself needs to change before assistance from others will have any long term effect.
Like many I donate here and there but I do really wonder if my few dollars has any real effect at all.
Take it easy.
SD
I agree Fleur that there are varying degrees of poverty in the world and that some people play the system in Australia. However there are no stats on how many people deliberately do that and it certainly is not across the board. The simple fact is there are not enough jobs and there are many reasons why people cannot find work. Many of us experienced tough times financially in the past but back in the 60's there were more jobs than people so our psychology about getting ahead was different. When I was just 18 I took myself off on a trip to Alice Springs with $10 in my pocket. It was all I had left after paying my train fares but I wasn't worried because I knew I would find a job as soon as I got there and on the day of my arrival I was offered 2 jobs. Very different story today with no jobs and high rents. In my region youth unemployment is well over 20%. Self esteem and confidence which may be low at the outset dives even further when people can't find work and depression, drug use and 'giving up' is a danger. I do think work or study for the dole is a good idea providing people aren't exploited and still have opportunity to escape welfare. What Hockey proposed though, 6 months on and 6 months off was atrocious and I hope it never happens. My view is to not judge people, stay compassionate toward those who struggle for whatever reason and accept that some will use the system. There have always been users and there always will be but we lose our compassion when we tar everyone with the same brush and judge people, even the users who may have feelings of hopelessness and worthlessness.
Well said Robi.
SD
yes, you have explaiined it well Robi.
I was going to ask you for another hug but then thought that the chardonnay might be working so maybe it would be better if it gave me a good nite sleep :)
Gerry reckon Robi and I want you to have a good night sleep so all you get tonight is a Cyber hug!
Robi I agree with you, we were fortunate in the 60s also then people in their 60s were sure of maintaining a job until they retired -not anymore. Our children and our grandchildren will be very fortunate if they are in full continuous employment and never made redundant. Of course there are some abusers but many are desperate for jobs now and stand to lose their homes.
Overseas there is extreme poverty but to in any way use that as a yardstick to justify how fellow Australians could be treated in this country is a non-argument, no one here should, by government tinkering with the welfare system, ever be reduced to extreme poverty just because it happens in other countries IMO.
Gerry, big cyber hug for you. Now get a good nights sleep.
Viv, your last paragraph is so spot on. I don't think anyone could argue against what you have said there.
Thank you Robi for an excellent post. I agree that the situation was different in the '60's and it was easier for people to find jobs. Today certainly there are fewer jobs...but then again..do people expect more in the way of employment. I am a great advocate for work or study for the dole and also would like to see these avenues explored without exploitation.
I would like to see young people given more of an opportunity to better their situations and more government programs to enable this to happen...having said that...it's no secret that some would rather live off the dole and let others foot the bill.
I certainly don't wish to tar every one with the same brush... and I'm not sure of the stats here...but there is too large a number of families where two or three generations are on the dole. In these circumstances...it's very hard for a young person to escape and pursue a different lifestyle...even if they try they are blocked by the environment in which they live.
Fleur. Family narratives about things like low worth, low ability, low expectation and stymied hope do sink very deep into the psyche of growing children and yes, some kids have a lot stacked against them in terms of environment and guidance. The main problem is that there are not enough jobs and an individual's psychology will determine how hard one tries to get one from what is available. Availability of work is crucial to our well being, security and developing independence and our society has gone the other way. Everything has become about maximising profits and cutting staff. Kids are encouraged to stay at school regardless of ability. They feel failures if they leave before year 12 and failures if they stay on but fail to meet the curriculum demands. I don't think the generational unemployed want less than anyone else. I think it is more likely that they are the first to give up when finding work seems impossible. They perhaps were never given enough belief in themselves to try very hard in the first place and all knock backs be it in finding work or any other way just reinforces the family narrative of struggle and hopelessness.
Again..a great post Robi and I agree with everything you've said. I believe in some cases though, people are caught in a trap and can't find their way out...spirits get low as you point out and all sorts of problems arise. The simplest example I can give to get my point across is the spectator sees the game...the players don't...and that's why I feel government bodies do have to step in and lift people out of the hole they're in... whether dug by themselves or through the fault of society.
Yes...everyone is made up differently...some have the strength to escape a "poverty" trap and I use that word loosely when referring to Australia. Others however need help not only financially but in other areas as well.
PS: Gerry must be covered in lipstick by now...and loving it no doubt!!!
Covered in lipstick? That must be Viv or is it you? I don't wear the stuff. Hey, it could even be Foxy? - unbelievable!!!!
Hmm Gerry must really be appealing to the Nurses - hope he got some sleep last night.
Quote: "Overseas there is extreme poverty but to in any way use that as a yardstick to justify how fellow Australians could be treated in this country is a non-argument, no one here should, by government tinkering with the welfare system, ever be reduced to extreme poverty just because it happens in other countries IMO."
Viv...there was no suggestion that the government should tinker with the welfare system...and I was not using extreme poverty in third world countries as a yard stick..I was simply indicating that ..in my opinion those who suggest that there is widespread poverty in Australia are not painting an accurate picture.
Having said the above...I do believe that the welfare system could be improved to enable those people who are in most need receive a helping hand and those who are rorting it prevented from doing so.
Fleur your Topic heading "How Poor is Poor" and subsequent comparative statements would suggest a yardstick?
Regardless to the the normally well off Australian some are comparatively poor by our standards. Agreed it is not widespread as in many areas a reasonable housing accomadation is unaffordable to those who are on welfare but go to other areas where private housing is just affordable on those who are on any form of subsidy, and most would have little left over for good food. Some people end up with children living and sleeping in cars or in tents in caravan parks because of lack of housing. That is not by choice. Lack of reasonably priced Housing in this country has forced people into "Poor" ghettos and that comes down to successive governments who have not recognised a need. Latest cutbacks have left gaping holes and there is not enough emergency housing for those in need.
Education which to my mind one of the primary building blocks has not been focussed on the special needs of the poorer areas but on the average, without that concentration by whatever needs necessary to raise the "poor" to a good level of education there is no way the majority will be elevated out of the cycle of poverty.
No point in naming and shaming and saying I achieved so why can't you, the question that needs to be considered, answered before a solution is found is where is our system going so wrong that some are locked into a negative life cycle.
Robi has quite rightly pointed out there are many causes and they need to be dealt with for things to alter.
Don't blame it on the chardonnay Gerry...stop flirting with Robi!!
Don't be a killjoy Fleur. You're probably just jealous. If Gerry wants hugs he'll get hugs. Here's another one Gerry :) but you're probably asleep by now. At least I hope you are. You can catch it at your usual time at 3am when I hope I'll be asleep.
Night Fleur. Night everyone.
Got it a bit late thanks (3:20am) :)
Good topic
Recently someone was complaining about cuts in pension and said we were becoming a"third world" country; which to me was quite ridiculous.
If you want to see real poverty have a look at these photos. I know where I would want to live.
When I started work in 1951, I got -- 1 pound and 76 shillings a week myself and Mother struggled -- she was working also as Dad had died when I was 9 -- but we made it and built a humble fibro home -- on weekends --took 3 years darn hard years but we got there. It has taught me to be careful and not waste money, it was a good leson learnt -- if people get things too easy they do not appreiciate them.
I do agree with you Plan B ... the saying "easy come easy go" is quite a valid one these days. Years ago people saved up for items they needed...not many went on credit schemes. Today however..there are too many organisations telling people they need this or that and offering these wretched "Buy now Pay later" plans. Banks offering people credit cards and loans when they can barely afford repayments. The result: people can't make payments and get caught in yet another trap and the downward spiral starts.
Until the government steps in and puts a stop to these easy credit schemes there will always be problems and more and more people will end up on welfare.
totally agree with your comment "if people get things too easy they do not appreciate them".
I have said before on this site that a woman who runs an Op shop and supplies goods free to those who really need them had an article in the paper that she is seeing the same people coming in time and time again wanting furniture, household goods, etc.
She is now wondering if she is doing the right thing providing all this free as it is not taken care of and no value is put on the donated goods at all.
So very true if they are getting them for nothing, I know sometime back there was a free food place run by some help site and they had people pulling up in BMW cars etc time and time again.
I am all for helping those in real need but not to bludgers
I am not sure whether you can compare the feeling of being poor and in poverty, in one country, to those in another country.
Here in Aust. to get any sort of help or assisstance is there not some form of criteria that is needed before any help is granted?
You will always get those who want everything for nothing, they should be sorted out, which should be relatively easy if they are not in need.
I lived in a suburb adjoining Mount Druitt (Rooty Hill) for many years and so know the area and its people. 40 years ago, I was serving summonses for a living in Mt Druitt and it was known as "Dodge city" everyone was dodging debt collectors. In recent years, it is not at all uncommon to see Porche's, Mercedes, BMW's etc in shopping car parks. Many people there have overcome their humble beginnings and have prospered - just look at median house prices in the area. The same goes for Liverpool and other "poorer" areas of Sydney.
Sure there are still pockets of poverty, unemployed, single parents, pensioners etc, all of whom are probably doing it tough. It is unfair and unrealistic to pick an area and say that its people are deadbeats, bludgers, druggies etc as these types are in EVERY community.
Seth,
Yes poor in one country could be seen as wealthy in another. It is relative to those around you.
Poor also changes over time.
Those experiencing the depression would have seen me by comparison as quite well off when I thought I was struggling. Likewise I saw my teens as a far better place to be than the institution I grew up in. I was short of a quid in my teens but I was free.
There is a big difference difference between poor and destitute. I was never destitute. I had a future, I knew that, it was only time before I moved up the scale a bit.
Take it easy.
SD
SD as one growing up through the depression I realise it is hard for anyone to realise what it was like, it did not matter being poor, everyone was in the same boat, as kids after school we would go into shops for stale cakes, or buy a pennyworth of broken biscuits, the soup cart would come to the school so we could get a bowl of hot soup. I don't remember any misery or depression at the time and we were a large family, I had four sisters, two brothers, and my parents had taken into the family, a boy and three girls, whose parents had both died,
No measure of poverty if viewed objectively can be termed "right", but to suggest widespread poverty is rampant in a country like Australia, where obesity rather than genuine want is more prevalent among lower-income households, is ridiculous..in my opinion.
Our welfare system has become so generous that it discourages employment and self-reliance...and if we were to stand back and look at it objectively..it would be as clear as crystal. Our welfare system is one of the greatest improvements this country has ever seen...but the dark side is...it has probably worked towards creating a permanent underclass of some welfare recipients whose numbers feature prominently in crime statistics.