Koko, I agree with you to the extent that I very rarely even read politically based posts on Forums these days, much less respond to them. In my mind, the chief problem is that people are seldom swayed by "facts". They form an opinion of a politician/party/incident etc and rather than do true research, they simply look for "facts" that support their already formed opinion.

In reality, the most unreliable of sources sometimes get their info right and conversely, the most conservative and professional news services also get it wrong. One of my favourite quotes is "opinions are like bums.....everybody has one".

If we simply assume that all politicians are liars and cheats, EVERY party will promise ANYTHING to get elected and then recant later, all news services contain at least SOME element of bias and finally, that the man-in-the-street is powerless to influence events at a global, national or even regional level......... we have a logical explanation for the overwhelming apathy you have noted. So, why "beats your gums" over aspects of life that you have no real chance of getting accurate data on...... and couldnt affect, even if you really did understand the factors at play? After all, what are "facts" if not the reported experiences or interpretations of events?......always prone to misrepresentation, misunderstanding and human error.These days, "spin" is the language of politics.



Thanks for that Kfchugo.



I don't fully agree that ALL pols are liars and cheats, though. There are many who are in the game because they genuinely want to serve the people. That's just my opinion and observation. And I might add..on both sides.

The late Senator John Button was a man I admired. And Kim Beasley I feel is a decent person.



But this fellow we've got in charge now, well I agree 100% with BigVal...he is the worst in my lifetime, and I think he lacks depth of character, and has a very shallow approach to the office, as I describe in some of my post above.



I'm reminded to add to that list...the day of Sen Button's funeral, a true icon of the Labor Party...(I met him once) Rudd couldn't attend the funeral...but found time to visit Cate and her baby!



I also agree with BigVal in that if we stop speaking up and voicing our opinions, we genuinely deserve the govt we get.

I concede that many people have entered politics to "serve the people" or try to change the system or just generally to do good. It is the nature of politics that brings them all undone in my view. You can do nothing unless you can get elected and to do that you have to do deals, make promises, enter into "arrangements" etc, etc. Having gotten elected, you then have people to whom you owe some "quid pro quo"....... and there goes your true independance.

There have been some great politicians who have done much good, but there is no denying the dirty, underhanded and sometimes dishonest things they have had to do, just to get into or stay in office. Some might say it is a necessary evil.....e.g., a good soldier is also a murderer. Government, like religeon is an invention to control the people and we are limited, constrained and regulated ever more closely......... all for our own good, naturally.

How much of that apathy is down to the fact that they have tweaked the system to suit the politicians so that they don't have to work to get our votes?



After all it started off as non-compulsory voting which means that you only get those interested in politics casting a vote.



Tthen they brought in compulsory voting with how to vote cards for those with no political views or just followed what Dad did and vote Labor or Liberal



then they introduced that the candidate had to 50% of the primary vote straight off and if not it could then go to preferences.



Preference voting means it is a from of corruption in that exchanges of ideas and agenda take place and the voter has to fill in the form.



Makes absolute nonsense of the one man one vote one value which is the basis of the Westminster system.



It also facilitates that the two major parties Libs and Labs are either in government or opposition and any other party has Buckley's which suits their purpose.



Whilst we do get independents voted in they usually have a high profile in their area which helps them in.

some of these have been top notch - like the one who got the super changed down to 9% same as workers instead of the 69% it was before - only affects from that date so older members have big super.

I don't believe you can be an honest man and a politician as well--and if you are you are a very rare soul

I can't agree with you PlanB. We have had & still have some politicians who I believe, are honest. I can't remember all the names, but Cater, from Nth Queensland, Pauline Hansen, the Member for Tamworth or New England & the 1/2 aboriganal gentleman from West Australia, are just a few who come to mind. I would even be game enough to suggest that the Tasmanian Senator who held the balance of power in the upper House for a few short years, was honest.

There was also a bloke on the Sth coast of NSW and he was the most honest of them all--wish I could remember his name. Yes I think Pauline was honest as well--and many might go in with good intentions BUT most don't stay that way.

Just, out of interest, PlanB, don't you think that Turnbull is honest? I am not a particular fan, but I do believe that he is honest. Actually, I hate to say it, but I think KRudd is honest, misdirected & useless, but honest. God help me! BigVal will kill me for that observation.

Sort of a grey area re Turnbull--as I don't know of anything he has been outright dishonest about but I think he is cunning--very cunningand I also think he could be a very dangerous man. As far as Rudd goes I really think he has done the right thing and it seems to be working so far, time will tell

I honestly cannot accept that ANY politician is honest - that would be a basic contradiction of the whole concept of politics. Just look at ANY interview of ANY politician. They rarely answer direct questions but rather give the answer to the question that THEY want to answer. They are slippery, ambiguous, deceitful and single minded in their responses. Even John Howard, whom many hold up as a "beacon of honesty" was virtually unable to admit when he was wrong. He went to extraordinary lengths to avoid admitting to errors........ such is the nature of politics.

Sure, they may use "honesty" as a tool when it suits them, but to qualify for the title of "Honest", one needs to be honest all the time........which politician can claim that?.

........which politician can claim that?.

--

MAybe the one on the Sth Coast--but what you say is VERY true

Actually, I hate to say it, but I think KRudd is honest, misdirected & useless, but honest.



Proof no 3.





Ask the Low family for starters, then see my earlier post above.



Even his compliant and sycophantic media are slowly waking up to him.

Just, out of interest, PlanB, don't you think that Turnbull is honest? I am not a particular fan, but I do believe that he is honest. Actually, I hate to say it, but I think KRudd is honest, misdirected & useless, but honest. God help me! BigVal will kill me for that observation.



Turnbull paid his wife his overnight rent money - that was a stupid mistake for a so called honest man and means I am right to feel he is not that trustworthy - he has 178 million according to Financial Review but he still has to rort his overnight money - poor judgement.



Rudd has accepted a free car and looks like he has recommended that the taxpayer funded scheme for car dealers give succour to the very one who gave him the free car and pays for his licence and rego - I mean he earns $330,000 a year plus perks and lurks and his wife who incidently doesn't bear his name - and not a Doctor either - usual explanation - she Ms Reign earns more than the Bond CEO women over $1.8 million per year - we taxpayers also pay for a nannie and a valet as she is working and cant see to her child nor to her hubbies clothes - so don't call him honest he is rorting the system and should pay for his own staff to take care of what his wife cant as working or she should. Not the taxpayer. Free car and what else?



Yes Rudd let the $90 a week for every pollie go through knowing he had said due to GFM couldn't pay the pension rises more - a defacto pay rise they spend without any checks on who or what and probably goes into their own pockets except for a bit of largesse buy a few raffle tickets to fee good and not even taxable!



Every pollie took it - laughing all the way to the Bank and then said all earnestly we paid the pensioners $30 a week - completely ignoring the fact that the married and gay couples get $5 each a week when prices are roaring up in the food and energy departments.



So both Leaders are on the nose as far as I am concerned and we need to see decent Leaders who are are honest enough not to rip off the taxpayers.



John Howard was honest enough - no hint of greed or rorting of the system - and yes he didn't listen enough when it suited his purpose not to - but that is the way it is - pity is he should have gone earlier and given the liberals a chance to stay in government.



Then we wouldn't be in the mess we are in - not having to look down the barrel at decades to pay off debts run up in mere months in a panic because the Labor team was inexperienced when the GFM started and they wouldn't listen or ask for advice just charged onwards as usual band aid fixes.



Same as they are doing with the ETS when it is so obvious that global warming was a porkie - which they acknowledge by the not so subtle change of name to climate change - also the NASA computer modelling was based on incorrect data which was probably put in on purpose in order to get the hoi polloi to pay out billions to the elite by way of huge rises in energy prices. Led by one Al Gore who had his Company up and running as he backed the movie which started off the hare running on a false path.