Shorten speaks up for equality

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten believes in God – and marriage equality.

Shorten speaks up for equality

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten has backed marriage equality during a speech he delivered to the Australian Christian Lobby (ACL) in Canberra on Saturday.

"I believe in God and I believe in marriage equality," he said. "I'm a Christian and a supporter of marriage equality under the law."

The ACL has campaigned strongly to prevent the passing of marriage equality laws, but Mr Shorten believes that religion shouldn't be used as an instrument of division when it comes to who we love.

"I believe our current law does exclude some individuals it says to them that your relationship is not equally valued by the state, that your love is less equal under the law," he said. "We currently have a law that discriminates against adult couples on the basis of who they love."

Mr Shorten also said that he doesn't buy into the argument that marriage equality leads to polygamy, bigamy or bestiality. He also acknowledged that his ideas may not be popular among other members, but he couldn't remain silent about faith being used as a justification for discrimination.

His speech comes on the heels of a US Government decision to allow gay marriage in a further six states, bringing the total number of US states which recognise marriage equality to 32.

Mr Shorten voted in support of gay marriage in 2012 and said he would continue to push for marriage equality in Australia, even though it is a polarising issue for many people.

"When I see people hiding behind the bible to insult and demonise people on the basis of who they love, I cannot stay silent. I do not agree," he said.

Watch the video of Shorten’s speech to the ACL.

Read more at TheAge.com.au

Opinion: A brave move

Mr Shorten should be applauded for having the courage to speak on behalf of a community which has been clearly marginalised for some time. The fact that he did it in front of one of the biggest opponents to marriage equality is even more admirable.

It’s refreshing to see one of our leaders actually publically oppose the conservative establishment. I, like many Australians, would like to see more of this type of ‘backbone’ from our politicians.

Whether we agree with the sentiment or not, the fact that he took a stand instead of toeing the same old party line, gives hope that Mr Shorten may be the type of leader we need. After all, that’s what leadership is all about.

The Australian Government has often been accused of cow-towing to the US when it comes to certain policies. The majority of US states now recognise gay marriage. It will be interesting to see if our government follows its lead this time.

Public opinion on gay marriage is changing. At the end of the day, recognising gay marriage is about respecting the liberties of all Australians, gay or straight. Conservatives who do not support gay marriage reform may risk alienating not only same-sex couples but also a number of their constituents who have no issue with the reform.

Do you support marriage equality? Do you see Mr Shorten’s speech as an indicator of him being a strong leader? Or is it more political manoeuvring? What do you think?





    COMMENTS

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    JudyMac
    27th Oct 2014
    10:21am
    Marriage equality is a fancy name for gay marriage. And gay marriage is a man-made agenda, not found in the Scriptures. I am all for equality! But marriage is a sacred institution not to be tampered with. I have been campaigning for a long time for equality in civil unions for everyone, whether gay or straight. Everyone SHOULD have equal benefits and respect. But marriage , being a sacred institution, should actually not be under government jurisdiction at all. Other countries do civil union ceremonies and it works just fine - why not Australia?
    Stoker
    27th Oct 2014
    10:32am
    Agree with your comments JudyMac, but in adding mine, the word GAY no longer represents the original meaning and was 'stolen' beside 'they are not gay they are sad, then they have 'stolen' the rainbow as their representation, it is NOT theirs it is everyones beauty and colour, and now they are stealing 'marriage' NO that's not on Civil Union ceremonies fine.
    ghoti
    27th Oct 2014
    4:03pm
    Australia DOES do civil union ceremonies, JudyMac. Call them marriages or call them something else, legally they are exactly the same.
    The oldies on this forum are, for the most part, on the wrong side of history. Most young people don't understand what the fuss is all about. Gay, straight, black, white, brindle, whatever, unless people are hurting others, let 'em do their thing.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    4:42pm
    Spot on both JudyMac and Stoker. "Marriage" has been hijacked and a gay person is no longer a 'happy' person but rather a homosexual.
    The issue at the heart of this argument is rarely about discrimination but rather that 'marriage' was what a man and a woman entered into before God. But given that society has becomes atheistic I can understand what has happened. And now homosexuals are running a campaign to get their rights.
    The sad revelation about Shorten is that he is seeking the homosexual vote whilst Tony Abbott appears to be after the Muslim vote. And readers wonder why often refer to politicians as 'prostitutes'. Well here it is yet again. Sold out for a handful of votes.
    KSS
    27th Oct 2014
    7:22pm
    So Mick who is looking after the gay Muslims?
    Kato
    28th Oct 2014
    6:15pm
    KSS The Taliban.
    MICK
    28th Oct 2014
    9:38pm
    Is there such a thing KSS? Off with their heads (sic).
    wally
    27th Oct 2014
    10:27am
    The fact that six more US states have given same sex marriage the green light has nothing to do with the US federal government. What American states do in this matter should have no more bearing on Australia's attitude toward this issue than Iran's.
    Idontforget
    27th Oct 2014
    10:32am
    It is great that the author of this article believes that we should follow the policies of states in the USA and that no doubt means that we should bring capital punishment back in again. Yep. Hurray, as soon as possible.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    4:45pm
    Society is being worn down by the ongoing demands of the homosexual community. Looks like it is working!
    Idontforget
    27th Oct 2014
    10:27am
    And you have forgotten to mention that Shorten and the Labor Party have cow towed to fringe groups just to get a vote or two.
    Sen.Cit.90
    27th Oct 2014
    11:35am
    I would suggest the ALP will also lose a lot of votes. I'm consider myself a 'swinging voter'; voting on policies.
    tia-maria
    27th Oct 2014
    12:17pm
    ldontforget, Dont all politicial parties do the same to get the votes they want
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    4:46pm
    And Abbott is wooing the Muslim vote. So is one better than the other????
    Both are disreputable....so vote for an Independent and send your message!
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    4:47pm
    Or grin and bear it. YOU voted for the bastards!
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    11:10am
    Idontforget, send a message to all of them and vote ALA.
    wally
    28th Oct 2014
    5:49pm
    mick, I admire your advocacy of supporting independent candidates in Parliament, but the problem is that you do not know what you are going to wind up with after election day. Which of the current crop of Independents in Federal Parliament would you say would be a "good 'un"?
    MICK
    28th Oct 2014
    9:47pm
    Fair point wally. But look at what we end up with now.
    My suggestion to pick a decent Independent is:

    1. to go through the local candidates and see what they are offering
    2. if possible get together a group of like minded folk to cut down on the work
    3. attend question and answer forums in your electorate to suss them out
    4. then make a decision.
    5. If you horse is a nag DO NOT RE-ELECT THEM....that way they do not get the taxpayer funded hand shake.
    I see your apprehension wally but remember the old saying 'if it don't work then fix it' and 'if it ain't broke then leave it alone'. Politic in this country is broken and it does need fixing....and you won't fix either side of politics until they are put outside the igloo and go hungry for a few elections.
    Hope we agree on the solution wally. I can see no other.
    Troubadour
    27th Oct 2014
    10:48am
    I agree totally JudyMac. Certainly a Civil Union is fine, but marriage is as you say a sacred union, not just the Bible but the Dictionary states this clearly:- condition of man and woman legally united for purpose of living together and procreating lawful off-spring.
    Pass the Ductape
    27th Oct 2014
    11:42am
    Funny, but I always understood that one might 'marry' a great many things together Troubadour! You can marry two pieces of metal with a weld...as you can marry together, many other things in life.

    But having said that - I feel for the future of any child brought up within the confines of a same sex marriage - however they might be obtained! There will come a day of reckoning and in many instances, it's not going to be pretty! Every child deserves to have both a mother - and a father!
    Adrianus
    27th Oct 2014
    10:52am
    The labor party is obviously willing to stand up to Christians and make a ruling against their religion and long held beliefs. However, not all religions benefit from Bill Shorten's view for change.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    4:50pm
    You Liberal Party troll Frank. We all know that the Labor Party can never do anything right. Is that how your script goes?
    Adrianus
    27th Oct 2014
    5:44pm
    Well mick, they did support the national security measures.
    KSS
    27th Oct 2014
    7:25pm
    And they have admitted that the stop the boats policy is working and that they 'might' continue it should they regain power.
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    11:54am
    Only the rusted on true believers will believe that they will be capable of keeping it working KSS. So might doesn't count.
    MICK
    28th Oct 2014
    9:52pm
    I heard last night that the 'official' Labor policy on asylum seekers/immigrants has not changed. Unless it comes out and says that it will not change the current policy then it deserves to remain in Opposition. I sent Shorten an email to that effect yesterday. It will be interesting what comes out as election date approaches.
    Adrianus
    29th Oct 2014
    7:19am
    Yes Marles was corrected. He got turned back himself. The question is by whom????
    Polly Esther
    27th Oct 2014
    11:25am
    Paleface speaks with forked tongue, ugh!
    Kato
    28th Oct 2014
    6:18pm
    So said Chief Wild Eagle.
    swatts
    27th Oct 2014
    11:54am
    I am a Christian and some Christians don't seem to read the same Bible that many of us do.

    Marriage traditions in Biblical times were very different from today. Marriage was neither a religious nor a civil matter, and the couple was considered married when the union was consummated. However, once married, the laws and customs of the time strongly prohibited adultery and provided physical and financial protections for the spouses and their children (Exodus 20:14, Leviticus 18:20, 20:10 Deuteronomy 25:5-6, Proverbs 22:6, Malachi 2:13-16, Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:2-12, Romans 7:2, Hebrews 13:4, Ephesians 5:22-25, 6:4, 1 Timothy 5:8). In today's world, it is the legal marriage that provides similar protections. Merely having sex or living together does not provide the legal protections for spouses and children that the Biblical model of marriage provided and that couples in same sex relationships seek today.

    It's also not easy to forget that King Soloman had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
    Now, I'm not saying that was a good thing. However it's an example, and there are many others where things were different than 'today' in the Bible.

    If we take a literal reading of the bible then Adam and Eve's children would have had to have sex in order to continue pro-creation. If a man was to die without an heir, his brother was required by law to take his brothers widow as a wife and procreate with her.

    The family of Biblical times had the husband as "lord" of the household and the wife as his helper. The husband worked diligently to provide material needs and protection while the wife worked diligently at domestic chores. In this New Testament passage, the need for a strong, healthy marriage is expressed in terms of the idealized family of the ancient world:
    Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. (NIV, 1 Peter 3:1-4, 7)

    Many would agree that contemporary marriages may follow the Biblical model or may be quite different.

    Christianity, nor an English dictionary has a trademark on marriage.
    You don't have to look hard at history to see that.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions

    At the end of the day, same sex relationships are real relationships.
    The people in them want to be afforded the same recognition and legal status as everyone else does.

    It wasn't that long ago that women were allowed to vote, to be recognised and allowed to have a real voice. To be treated as a full person.

    This really isn't very different.
    tia-maria
    27th Oct 2014
    12:22pm
    swatt, gosh mate LIGHTEN UP
    Hasbeen
    27th Oct 2014
    1:10pm
    God you've got to feel sorry for King Soloman, a thousand times sorry.

    No wonder he turned into a raving ratbag.
    Hasbeen
    27th Oct 2014
    1:13pm
    As for Shorten, he's just a disgusting bit of muck, badly advised by his media arm, the ABC. The ABC, & Labor obviously think the community has the same ratio of homosexuals as they do.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    4:58pm
    The feminists would have you on toast Swatts.
    I am not sure that you read ALL of the bible as homosexuality is described as a perversion. My memory does not recall homosexuality being anything other than that but maybe I am wrong...and I await more learned people in this area to tell me otherwise.
    particolor
    27th Oct 2014
    6:14pm
    Well Ill go back and read that Sodom and Gomorrah bit again !!!..
    swatts
    27th Oct 2014
    8:29pm
    Mick & for others open to look a little further into things.

    http://vimeo.com/97717088
    http://www.freedom2b.org/support/faith-religion/#bible
    http://www.forthebibletellsmeso.org/film.htm
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    10:10am
    Well said swatts.
    Kato
    28th Oct 2014
    6:21pm
    Is Bill a Fop.
    ballaratboy
    27th Oct 2014
    12:17pm
    Call me old fashioned, but I believe that marriage is between one man and one woman, to the exclusion of all others. The institution of marriage has been around thousands of years and has served us well. What worries me is that Churches will be forced to marry same sex couples, should this become law. A challenge in the UK against the Church of England for refusing to marry a same sex couple has begun, even though the Politicians said this could not happen under the legislation. Anyway, interesting times we live and HOW MUCH has our society changed in my lifetime. I wonder what it will be like in another 50 years?
    Innyoo
    27th Oct 2014
    3:18pm
    agree. My husband is an Anglican minister and does lots of marriages, but would not want to do a same sex one, so should have the freedom to be able to say 'sorry can't do that for you', same as schools and churches should be able to hire who they want based on whether they share the same beliefs. I am sure a Moslem community would not want an evangelical Christian to lead their mosque....
    Adrianus
    27th Oct 2014
    4:29pm
    ballaratboy, I have long suspected that gays had a hidden agenda of attacking the church because it is the last hurdle in legitimising gay union. Your comment is interesting regarding the legal challenge.
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    4:39pm
    Innyoo. I agree a minister must retain the right not to marry same sex couples. Unfortunately should homosexual marriage be legalised, then anyone refusing to conduct a marriage under these "circumstances"will almost certainly be in conflict of the law. Then what? And I am certain that these same "couples" will seek out ministers to marry them, knowing full well that it against the beliefs of celebrant. Their agenda goes much further than "marriage".
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:02pm
    I share your concerns ballaratboy. If churches are compelled by law to marry homosexuals then I hope that there are enough Christians left in our society to refuse this demand, even if it is accompanied by a threat from the legal system........which has failed us for such a long time.
    tia-maria
    27th Oct 2014
    12:19pm
    I feel for the couples that are Gay as they have the same rights to fall in love with who they want to,........... my husband I had great neighbours in a gay couple.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:04pm
    There is no argument that some homosexuals can be great neighbours but that is not the issue. And what would you say if a man fell in love with his sheep (sic)?
    Sorry about the rather obtuse analogy but I am taking your proposition (sic) to the nth degree to make a point, nothing more.
    wally
    28th Oct 2014
    6:15pm
    The term "marriage equality" is such a vague term that it really verges on being meaningless. If the gays can use the term to push their agenda, could child molesters demand that they be allowed to wed underage children? Just as pre= pubescent girls were engaged and promised to future husbands in old European aristocratic families for dynastic and political reasons as recently as a couple of centuries ago, does not means we should endorse this practice today. A recent case in the Hunter Valley region of NSW saw a 12 year old girl offered up by her father to marry a 26 year old foreign national in a religious ceremony. The father and the cleric who performed the wedding ceremony claimed it was legitimate. So is this the way the term "marriage equality" should be observed in the 21st Century? Does this term mean anything you want it to mean?
    Can the term be stretched to include, as mick has suggested, animal lovers? Does Mr. Shorten support child marriage,then? Maybe he would like to lower the voting age so the child brides can vote Labor. I doubt that sheep and the other beasts of the field would attract Mr. Shorten's support in this "stretched" definition of marriage equality, though!
    dougie
    27th Oct 2014
    12:28pm
    What does Bill Shorten have to respect about marriage. He did not even respect his own vows so how can he be the arbiter of wisdom on marriage Gay or otherwise. Bill when you can do the right thing by your own family then talk to me about what is right for the community.
    Ming
    27th Oct 2014
    12:31pm
    Too true, as I say, weather vein Bill. Labor must be desperate for support.
    Anonymous
    27th Oct 2014
    3:38pm
    I keep hearing it said by social commentators that the majority of Australians are in support of Gay marriage.

    Are they??? No one has polled me or any of my friends.

    I would like to see a proper poll done on this.
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    5:06pm
    Whatever poll, they always put leading questions. I do not know anyone, family, friends or associates that agree with this marriage "concept".
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    10:17am
    Well absolutely everyone I know supports gay marriage. So there you go. We choose our own friends don't we.
    particolor
    28th Oct 2014
    12:14pm
    Well that comment nearly took Me Aback !!
    Kato
    28th Oct 2014
    6:22pm
    Aback to another time perchance.
    Ming
    27th Oct 2014
    12:29pm
    Good old weather vein Bill, I will be impressed when he fronts up at a Mosque and expands his theory on marriage. It is easy to confront Christian religions, the Muslims are somewhat more aggressive in their responses to confrontational approaches.
    dougie
    27th Oct 2014
    12:36pm
    Poor old Bill he can't get it right. Sure he bearded the Christians in their den, now let him do the same with Budhists - Muslims and any other religion, that will show true courage and respect for we Australians. Bill is a little man with little ideas and little support in the ALP.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:06pm
    Yes. I dare say Tony Abbott will not be expounding such views. So do we now add "discrimination" and "homophobia" to this section of Australian society?
    tj
    27th Oct 2014
    12:39pm
    Cannot see how just because a politician believes in gay (can't ever accept that word in this context)marriage) deserves to be heralded ,especially this one as, a leader of a country
    EELS
    27th Oct 2014
    12:49pm
    Give us a break. If anyone believes Shorten is 'sincere' about anything they have a serious lack of any kind of intuition or assessment of someones character. The guys a mouthpiece for anything that 'seems' to be what the particular audience wants to hear. This is just another bandwagon he has hitched a ride on for the time being.
    tj
    27th Oct 2014
    12:56pm
    Dead right about that,speaking of grandstanding did you see Sarah hanson young's latest pathetic rant?
    Anonymous
    27th Oct 2014
    3:40pm
    If you want to get me fired up mention Sarah Hanson Young LOL.

    I think the woman is a screw loose.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:11pm
    And Tony Abbott is sincere? The biggest political liar I have ever had the misfortune of seeing as the leader of our country.
    They're ALL insincere.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:11pm
    And Tony Abbott is sincere? The biggest political liar I have ever had the misfortune of seeing as the leader of our country.
    They're ALL insincere.
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    5:12pm
    Mr Abbott has morals, that's good enough for normal people.
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    10:21am
    Phoney Abbott has morals??? Oh my! Do you know what a moral is niemakawa?
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    1:47pm
    a mushroom?
    wally
    28th Oct 2014
    6:20pm
    At least in Abbott's case, people do not say that he dumped his first wife to take up with another, as Robiconda's hero Shorten is reputed to have done.
    Kato
    28th Oct 2014
    6:26pm
    Yes Frank can you be more specific next time. A swiss brown' or a field. Shitaki perhaps
    Seagull
    27th Oct 2014
    12:58pm
    If Bill shorten is so brave, let him go to lakemba mosque and support homosexual lifestyle.
    Now that would be courageous . That would not happen, i can just see Tony Burka going ballistic
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    1:27pm
    I think he would like to keep his head!
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:12pm
    I'd like to see that Seagull.
    EELS
    27th Oct 2014
    7:56pm
    Good point.
    goldenoldie
    27th Oct 2014
    1:00pm
    if politicians are genuinely agreeing in marriage equality for ALL people, not just the gay lobby, then the next approval could perhaps be islamic multiple marriages; or mormon multiple marriages. that surely is equality all round. shorten is looking for votes and there are a lot in the gay community. i dont think he was brave ..i think he just got on a popular bandwagon of the moment. the people to whom he 'so bravely' spoke may well become so alienated by his comnents he could lose a whole swathe of voters! political correctness is destroying all the democracies - there are few really brave politicians who don't got the way of PC. additionally, why applaud shorten for being brave to state his beliefs but damn abbott for his! be fair people. golden oldie
    Anonymous
    27th Oct 2014
    3:41pm
    I love my cat and my dog but I dont want to marry them.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:14pm
    Spot on Radish. That is the short answer to the Hanson Young heartstring jerkers. In the end can any of us force our beliefs onto the rest of the population when those beliefs do not sit well.....even after several decades of softening us all up.
    Aurora60
    27th Oct 2014
    1:10pm
    I'm all for gay marriage. If two consenting adults are in love with each other and want to share the rest of their lives together in a state of wedded bliss regardless of religion (which is the cause of all wars), then let them. They are not hurting anyone, and anyone who criticises them for wanting to be happy, well there's something wrong with you. Good on Bill Shorten, I hope he gets elected on this.
    HOLA
    27th Oct 2014
    1:40pm
    couldn't agree with you more AURORA60. Friends of ours are Gay and you couldn't ask for better friends. How dare people sit in judgement on the way other people choose to live, whilst others condemn pe0ple who wish to end their lives in a dignified manner.
    nan
    27th Oct 2014
    3:57pm
    I'm all for 'guy' people having eqaul rights, but you can't have two left foot shoes and call them a pair. By all mean give let guys have a civil union ceremony, but don't call it marriage. And I do believe it is not fair to deliberatly deprive a child of a mother of father.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:16pm
    Well said nan.
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    10:24am
    Very well said Aurora60 and HOLA.
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    11:47am
    I agree nan, lets stop trying to put a square peg in a round hole!!!
    mangomick
    27th Oct 2014
    1:17pm
    Sorry Bill but I think the Greens have already beaten you to the "gay vote". But there is a lot of us "over 60s" out here if you want to try to butter us up.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:19pm
    I don't vote Liberal or Labor at the best of times. They won't be buttering me up mangomick. I'm with you....break out the mango juice.
    Where's particolor when you need him.
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    11:44am
    Yes mick, you will tango to that tune.
    particolor
    28th Oct 2014
    1:13pm
    Nobody is Buttering Me Up !! Why, the Butter might be Infidel Butter and not Halal Butter !!!!!.. If I haven't paid My Muslim Tax on the Butter I don't want it !! Ide hate to see all those Islamic Projects go without Funding from All !!
    mangomick
    28th Oct 2014
    5:35pm
    C'mon Particolor......... Are you sure you wouldn't enjoy a Last Tango in Paris.
    wally
    28th Oct 2014
    6:22pm
    Or Oxford Street?
    Kato
    28th Oct 2014
    6:28pm
    Or Hershey highway .
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    1:19pm
    I do not support marriage between same sex couples. I would say that the majority of Australia oppose such a union. Bill Shorten is looking at his political gain by his comments. But I dare say another minority group ( "Gays" this time) will win out.
    ghoti
    27th Oct 2014
    4:05pm
    Apparently the majority of Australians DO support same-sex marriage. But I dare say another minority group ( "Christians" this time) will win out.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:20pm
    And Tony Abbott is buttering up the Muslim vote. They are both prostitutes with little integrity between them.
    EELS
    27th Oct 2014
    8:53pm
    The majority of Australians DO support same-sex marriage do they ghoti? I for one do not and I am probably not alone. Do not make sweeping statements for others.
    ghoti
    27th Oct 2014
    11:04pm
    EELS: I was simply quoting a statistic I saw once and was not making sweeping statements for others.
    mangomick
    28th Oct 2014
    8:52am
    Yes Ghoti that "statistic" is brought out every time this "proposal" is mentioned and like EELS, I'd like to see where they get that statistic from. I always say if they really have the support of the country have a referendum but the Gay community who say the majority of Australians are in favour of Gay marriage never want a referendum???? I don't really believe at this point in time the majority of Australians are in favour of lowering moral standards by allowing gay marriage.
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    10:28am
    There have been many polls on this issue and they all get the same result that the majority of Australians support same sex marriage.
    mangomick
    28th Oct 2014
    11:32am
    Well Robiconda Polls are easily manipulated as well you know. Go to the Sydney North shore and ask if the wealthy should be taxed more and then go to the western suburbs and ask the same question and see the difference. Most polls are conducted by the gay lobby so naturally the result will be swayed that way. Maybe it's coincidence but I have never been asked my opinion but then I guess I live in an Industrial blue collar town and the result that the polls would be looking for would probably not be forthcoming here.The most conclusive poll is indeed a referendum.
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    11:42am
    mangomick I agree with you on that!! Given that people naturally reject change of any kind it is hard to see a vote in favour of attacking the church.
    Tom Tank
    27th Oct 2014
    1:22pm
    This has brought out all the LNP brigade as well as the believers in religious dogma. The Churches are ones who called marriage "sacred" and insist on their rules being followed. It is all about protecting their own vested interests in controlling their flock.
    My formative years were spent in a household of women. This was not their choice as it was in wartime Britain. I never met my father until he got home at the end of 1945, he was in France at the start of 1940 and was sent to wherever the army wanted him to go. It hasn't seemed to do me any harm and in fact I have more respect for women than most of the blokes I know. I am not intimidated by them either as so many men are resulting in violence against women. I don't for a moment pretend to understand them however.
    I cannot understand this incredible intolerance toward same sex marriage. If two people are committed to each other through love and respect then that is the true basis of marriage.
    Lets be honest the original basis of marriage was all about property and ensuring that ownership was retained by the "right" sort of people.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:27pm
    Need to get off the booze Tom. You are all over the ship mate.
    Whilst the church, and more specifically the Catholic Church, have a lot to answer for the broader Christian community serves God...and the church is but the instrument of delivering the word to the masses.
    Your assertion about "controlling their flock" is not on the mark.
    I saw the shorts for one of the 'Who Do You Think You Are' series recently where a rather obnoxious and nasty homosexual man stated "there is no God" in the most condescending voice you could imagine and made it sound as though his belief were fact. Funny how homosexuals have all of these supposed and self determined 'rights' and those who have alternative beliefs are criminals.
    Jennie
    27th Oct 2014
    8:58pm
    Well said Tom Tank. Those of us who are tolerant are receiving flak from bigots.
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    10:33am
    Well said as usual Tom Tank.
    Observer
    27th Oct 2014
    1:33pm
    Marriage is for a man and a woman, not the same sex. If same-sex couple want to form an alliance, let them do so, but don't confuse it with marriage.
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    5:00pm
    Normal being the operative word.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:30pm
    It is 'different'.
    We have a Christian heritage which held our society together for hundreds of years. Christianity was the glue. Now people are self destructing with God removed from many of our lives. I dare say the impact is there for all to see.
    justjanet
    27th Oct 2014
    1:43pm
    Wow what a hornets nest has been stirred up mostly good points as everyone has a right to there opinion .the only one that got up my nose was from dogsbody get a grip man I think I may have a solution to the saga Mmm next elections the " gay "party can stand for parliament and have the rainbow ( pride flag ) on all there campaign literature
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    4:46pm
    Dogs Body, when we are all "converted". Long live the hetero.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:34pm
    Dogs Body: I think you have spoken for many on this website. What you are alluding to is that OUR RIGHTS seem to be missing when we are told that this is what is happening. That is why voters need to think hard before they mark their ballot paper.
    Whilst you have probably heard me plug Independents ad nausium perhaps one needs to go as far as determining a candidates sympathies with respect to 'marriage'. Clearly some Independents also would be off the list.
    Hope you make a good choice.
    EELS
    27th Oct 2014
    8:55pm
    Well said Mick and Dogs Body.
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    2:58pm
    Put it to the people by way of a referendum. Can't trust any political party to do as its voters want.
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:36pm
    I love it. Even though a referendum is not binding it is easy to run when an election is occurring anyway.
    The problem is that politicians refuse to do this because they may not want to have their hand forced. I mean you wouldn't want to lose the votes of the homosexual community because the rest of the nation wanted a specific outcome.
    Gee Whiz
    27th Oct 2014
    3:19pm
    What homosexuals do in the privacy of their own home is their business even though it is unnatural to me.

    But i draw the line on them getting married and being able to adopt children. Once again this is unnatural to the true order of things.

    Bill Shorten is backing them because he can smell a few votes he hopes will get the Labor party back into power.

    He is barking up the wrong tree and this decision will come back to haunt him at the next election.

    27th Oct 2014
    3:39pm
    The labor party will do anything for a vote
    MICK
    27th Oct 2014
    5:38pm
    And so will the Liberal Party Solomon. You didn't mention that Abbott is sucking up to the Muslim community of late..........to get their vote?
    You a such a troll Solomon. A private opinion you say? Yeah right. Cash for comment is the reality.
    Anonymous
    27th Oct 2014
    6:44pm
    In case you havent heard, Tony is against same sex marriage.
    The man has principles unlike Shorten.

    People should send labor a loud and message at the next elections by again voting LNP in with an even bigger majority. Its the only way we will have real progress and dig ourselves out of the mess labor left.
    MICK
    28th Oct 2014
    10:41pm
    You are working the crowd again Solomon. I respect an opinion based on fact but detest a troll who sells his soul for the few bucks this government is paying you.
    Your assertion about Abbott having "principles" leaves me laughing on the floor......ok, back again. Your boss lied his way into government and has been lying ever since (I'd call that being a congenital liar, wouldn't you?). And you say he has principles????? Maybe you mean that he directs school principals.
    MB100D
    27th Oct 2014
    3:40pm
    There will never be peace in the world until the last politician is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    5:10pm
    Or Imam.

    27th Oct 2014
    3:47pm
    Just ban marriage altogether. It's an outdated concept.
    Adrianus
    27th Oct 2014
    4:21pm
    rather than ban it altogether, why not try to improve it? Would it help if polygamy was banned and limited to say 4 partners at any one time?
    Anonymous
    27th Oct 2014
    4:57pm
    Shorten has to be the most insincere member of the Gillard gang...
    miss aisle
    27th Oct 2014
    5:20pm
    I think there is something beautiful & sacred about a man & woman truly committing to each other (not keen on the "honour & obey" bit), in the presence of God, family & friends.
    There seems more concern & confidence in that type of relationship.
    But, marriage is for one man, one woman & children.
    I can't see why a civil union is not happily accepted by homosexuals.
    Definitely do not agree with children being brought up with one-sex couples.
    Adrianus
    27th Oct 2014
    5:41pm
    Pete, I formed that opinion as well.
    Adrianus
    27th Oct 2014
    5:53pm
    miss aisle hang onto that thought, it will never go out of fashion. There is bound to be a conflict of opinion during sex education classes. And that is only a minor issue.
    Anonymous
    27th Oct 2014
    6:49pm
    Nonsense miss aisle

    were adam and eve married, or did they have b&St%rd children?

    the concept was invented by some fool clergy
    miss aisle
    27th Oct 2014
    7:09pm
    solomon, a tradition brought about providing structure & security for communities.
    Because of many of our traditions, we have come thus far.
    Anonymous
    27th Oct 2014
    7:18pm
    well if you're so insecure then s'pose its ok for you.

    but you last statement about traditions and progress - makes no sense. do you just mouth off stuff without thinking ?
    miss aisle
    27th Oct 2014
    7:40pm
    Try putting your brain into 1st gear !
    Adrianus
    27th Oct 2014
    10:15pm
    Solomon, are you saying there can be no progress while upholding tradition?
    Anonymous
    27th Oct 2014
    10:46pm
    i am saying there is no correlation.
    some traditions keep you backward

    like the wearing of the hijab, like believing in religion
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    8:36am
    If you are suggesting that by dismantling the institution of marriage we will face a brave new world, then I would say to you nature will fight against it. Homosexuality is statistically promiscuous when compared to Hetero relationships. I would imagine you could see a slight shift to promiscuity but the law of nature will survive. You will still need a contractual arrangement between a man and a woman. That would not change if the church blessed 2 billion gay marriages.
    Reeper
    27th Oct 2014
    5:21pm
    Hello, hello, testing 12345...can you hear me at the back? Nothing the Amazing Shorten said was new from an ALP point of view. The only thing new'ish was the Amazing Shorten's delivery which I suspect he thought was 'gut-wrenching', I thought was contrived and pathetic. On the subject itself, I am not religious but do find the use of 'marriage' should be between two persons of the opposite gender as I believe it implies procreation. I have no problems with same gender civil unions as others have said it works in many other parts of the word. Those campaigning for 'same gender marriage' are in many cases just stirring the political pot with a cause which doesn't need government intervention
    EELS
    27th Oct 2014
    8:59pm
    His delivery of these sorts of speeches is always contrived and pathetic. He never gets the inflections in his sentences right. A dead giveaway.
    Jennie
    27th Oct 2014
    5:44pm
    I am shocked at the homophobia on display in this forum. Those of you who are homophobic need to be aware that medical research shows that homophobics have ambivalent feelings about their own sexuality. If you are truly, fully comfortable with your own heterosexual preference then you have no reason to oppose the marriage union between two human beings who love each other and who wish to make a ritual commitment.
    We are not talking about having sex with animals - don't be ridiculous. That would be cruel as animals are not consenting.
    With regards to what god might think, first you have to prove that god exists and that it has opinions. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    10:56am
    Well said Jennie. There is a lot of ignorance being displayed too and not much real intelligence. Personally I would say that most homophobic attitudes are built on ignorance rather than internalised homophobia although that can play a part too for some.
    Foxy
    27th Oct 2014
    5:46pm
    I have never ever read such bigoted and biased comments from a lot of "Seniors" than I have "bothered/skimmed thru'" to read today!!! I have thought to myself for a long time actually - that - when this older "generation" finally "die off" - there will be a lot more happiness in the world - because the younger generation don't care one iota- as long as people are happy!!

    It is absolutely NO ONE'S BUSINESS WHATSOEVER what other people choose to do with their lives!!! Is it affecting YOUR life??? - doubt it!!! NO - I am NOT gay - but I have some wonderful gay friends - and let me tell you something - they would put a lot of you people to shame! Shame! Get over it - mind you own business and get on with your own obviously pathetic lives !!!!!
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    5:50pm
    and you get on with yours. People who oppose marriage between same sex couples have a right to do so. I know many young people that that have similar views.
    Adrianus
    27th Oct 2014
    6:00pm
    Foxy, what is it exactly that you are upset about?
    You can always spot the lefty nutters. There the ones who will throw one big word at the discussion as if to throw one big bucket of water on a fire.
    Jennie
    27th Oct 2014
    6:22pm
    Thank you Foxy. Bigots, please also read my comment above Foxy's.
    Adrianus
    27th Oct 2014
    6:49pm
    Jennie, I didn't bother reading past word no. 6.
    miss aisle
    27th Oct 2014
    7:02pm
    In general, the one word that the older generation try to live by is "loyalty".
    They like the tried, traditional, solid structures of life, but do "go with the flow" with many new ideas.
    The one word that the younger generation want to live by is "choices".
    Choices are good, but, with too many, people lose their identity & end up like lost sheep.
    Anonymous
    27th Oct 2014
    7:42pm
    Agree with the points you made Jennie (5.44 pm) and Foxy (5.46pm). And miss aisle have known of many from older generations who didn't try too hard "to live by loyalty". And as I understand it Royalty and the aristocracy have been bed-hopping for centuries and treated marriage as a contract of political alliances, in-breeding and land grabs, and don't think love or compatability got much of a look in...
    miss aisle
    27th Oct 2014
    8:29pm
    I was speaking "in general" shetso
    For many generations in the past,nearly all couples stuck to traditions when it came to marriage/work/children.
    During the last 40 to 50 years, some traditions have been pushed aside & more
    couples/singles made their own choices.
    That's what I meant!
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    11:08am
    Exactly what age group are you talking about miss aisle? Many of us oldies were young adults and teenagers in the 1960's when we rejected so much rigid traditional nonsense.
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    11:34am
    Robiconda, are you saying that you didn't grow out of that rebellious type behaviour like the rest of us did? I like tradition. What is wrong with tradition?
    miss aisle
    28th Oct 2014
    12:36pm
    Tradition provides a solid base, a sense of belonging, sense of security, & I believe, make communites stronger, but even free spirited people need to have directions
    to follow sometimes.
    wally
    28th Oct 2014
    6:39pm
    I tend to agree that what people do in their lives is their own business. I agree that what happens in "X" should stay in "X" and not be broadcast wholesale in an effort to justify certain behaviour patterns. As Queen Victoria said, they can do what they want in private, but they shouldn't do it in the street and frighten the horses!
    I do not like being told what to think by any one, minority or not, politically correct or not as I think people are intelligent enough to form their own opinions. Should those views be of a particular political, religious or sexually oriented persuasion, I think we should be free to think and express our thoughts without having some sort of politically correct thought police running around silencing debate.
    Fready
    27th Oct 2014
    5:56pm
    Next we will have Bill Shorten and the ABC grooming us to accept incest by saying it was condoned in the Bible via Adam and Eve. When I was a teenager, laws on homosexuality were based on religious teachings of the day and homosexuality was illegal. Seems to me that the Church changes it's stance to remain relevant (if indeed it ever was) and the lawmakers follow.
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    6:00pm
    Homosexuality has and always will be part of any society regardless of religious beliefs. However a marriage is only between a man and a woman and should not be extended to other "couples".
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    7:59am
    There are no Homosexual Islamists. Why isn't Bill Shorten trying to introduce Homosexuality into the Islamic faith?
    Foxy
    28th Oct 2014
    10:42am
    How do you know that Frank? None at all? Ridiculous statement!! ROFL
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    11:10am
    Just more ignorance. Frank is full of it.
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    11:25am
    Treatment of homosexuals within Islam:

    According to a pamphlet produced by Al-Fatiha, there is a consensus among Islamic scholars that all humans are naturally heterosexual. 5 Homosexuality is seen by scholars to be a sinful and perverted deviation from the norm. All Islamic schools of thought and jurisprudence consider gay acts to be unlawful. They differ in terms of penalty:

    The Hanafite school (currently seen mainly in South and Eastern Asia) teaches that no physical punishment is warranted.

    The Hanabalites, (widely followed in the Arab world) teach that severe punishment is warranted.

    The Sha'fi school of thought (also seen in the Arab world) requires a minimum of 4 adult male witnesses before a person can be found guilty of a homosexual act. Al-Fatiha estimates that 4,000 homosexuals have been executed in Iran since their revolution in 1979. 10 public executions of homosexuals have been performed in Afghanistan by the Taliban army.
    miss aisle
    28th Oct 2014
    1:31pm
    foxy & robiconda - you obviously do not know much about islam.
    Foxy
    28th Oct 2014
    5:53pm
    Don't need to or want to miss aisle - all I want is for people to mind their own business - let other people be happy and to have happy lives and not have bigots try to ruin other people's lives! Simple!!! What right do you have miss aisle to tell other people (strangers) what to do with their lives??? Tell me what right you have - and it may be possible to reason with you!?? (doubt it though) lol lol lol
    miss aisle
    28th Oct 2014
    7:02pm
    foxy - if you don't need to or want to read about islam rules - OK, BUT
    don't say "ridiculous statement" to someone who DOES know about
    islam. You mouth off but haven't got a clue!
    Ny19
    30th Oct 2014
    9:39am
    There is a big difference between Islamic rules and Frank's statement "There are no Homosexual Islamists." May as well say "there are no homosexual Christians". I hope this makes it clearer for you to understand why I call Frank's statement ignorant miss aisle.
    miss aisle
    30th Oct 2014
    2:32pm
    You make it clearer to understand that you only see what you want -
    don't like reality much do you ??
    Never mind, stay in your hazy fog.
    Adrianus
    30th Oct 2014
    3:22pm
    Robi, there is a big world out there. It's ok to be interested in your own little circle but political policy is about what is best for the wider community.
    I was merely eluding to the hypocrisy of Shorten's argument. In one suburb we have a push for gays to be married, in another we have gays staying in the closet because under their law they are usually killed. Just goes to prove how tolerant Christians are that they would encourage a platform for such a speech from Shorten, but then my guess is that most in the audience were gay Christians?
    BC.
    27th Oct 2014
    6:18pm
    Surely people can see through Bill Shorten ( short on votes) is the only reason he has taken this avenue. He is not speaking me or the community at large as SUGGESTED. Anything to get him into the lodge and bugger the rest of the community and what they think. I think he is weak and not concerned about the morals of the community in Australia. Short but sweet.
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    6:24pm
    Politicians alone must not decide. It is an issue that concerns the social structure of our society. The People must have a voice and vote through a binding referendum.
    Incognito
    27th Oct 2014
    6:43pm
    What does it matter, let them be married, it is not religious anymore, very few hetrosexuals are virgins and the brides still wear white, it is all hypocritical these days. It is mainly for the rights of the partner if one dies he/she will have more protection legally, that's what it is really about otherwise a commitment ceremony would suffice.
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    6:47pm
    They can already register as a same sex couple and all the rights that you mention will be available them. So why is the formal term "marriage" required? Civil union will suffice, surely.
    Incognito
    27th Oct 2014
    6:51pm
    You tell me, I don't know why people want to marry anyway.
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    6:55pm
    Why not convert all existing marriages and rename them Civil Unions. Then same sex couples can use the term "marriage" Will that satisfy them? After all it is "marriage" they want.
    Anonymous
    28th Oct 2014
    12:09am
    All marriages are technically civil unions.
    particolor
    28th Oct 2014
    1:38pm
    Now this has given another meaning to an Old Saying !!..
    If You cant Beat them "JOIN THEM !!"

    27th Oct 2014
    6:45pm
    Tony is against same sex marriage.
    The man has principles unlike Shorten.

    Australia should send labor a loud and message at the next elections by again voting LNP in with an even bigger majority. Its the only way we will have real progress and dig ourselves out of the mess labor left
    Adrianus
    27th Oct 2014
    6:51pm
    Solomon, I was just thinking the same thing this morning. We need to give the Abbott Government an even bigger majority so they can get the job done!!!
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    7:00pm
    It is a lay down misere.
    Adrianus
    30th Oct 2014
    7:08pm
    Labor have gone to sleep in the passenger seat. Last week Albo suddenly realised he may have a problem with the new security measures. This week Shorten has awoken from his slumber to replace Conroy with Claire to further discuss 35p.
    ballaratboy
    27th Oct 2014
    7:42pm
    Of course the real issue here in the long term, is whether or not we will retain religious freedom in this Country. As sure as night follows day, there will be a clash between the Church and the Gay lobby at some stage in the future, if the Labor Party ever enacts this proposed legislation.
    niemakawa
    27th Oct 2014
    7:46pm
    Love hurts.
    Adrianus
    27th Oct 2014
    8:24pm
    It's strange we have not heard from the grand mufti regarding Shorten's speech?
    miss aisle
    28th Oct 2014
    12:42pm
    Too busy sorting through money from food extortion, to have a chat with
    Shorten, Frank.
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    2:06pm
    They are one. They are united in their goals to extort money from businesses. Shorten is simply doing the work of Sharia law and attacking the ACL.
    MICK
    28th Oct 2014
    10:44pm
    miss aisle and Frank: so is this a Liberal Party tag team? Sounds like it. So Abbott goes to suck up to the Muslim community and you attack Shorten for some supposed crime. I did not know that anybody other than Frank and Solomon were Liberal Party stoolies trolling for their daily bread.
    miss aisle
    29th Oct 2014
    9:17am
    mick - it is possible to have strong views on govt. policies without being a troll.
    If Labor had the ideas/good planning/expertise in running a country, I would vote for
    them, BUT unfortunately, they're hopeless with finances, good ideas & following
    through with their plans.
    If voting for an independent, sometimes it's not clear which major party will end
    up with it, so that's not much good either.
    margie
    27th Oct 2014
    8:01pm
    I would like to see Mr Shorten give his speech at a mosque, bet you the farm he wouldn't. Mr shorten says whatever is expedient and wherever he thinks he can have the greater impact. Having said all that I really do not know why this is such an issue and agree ALL people should have the same rights, and be respected for who they are.
    Flindersbar
    27th Oct 2014
    8:35pm
    There is already civil partnership available, so they are being treated as adults and should leave it at that. As far as I can ascertain marriage means devoting oneself to the person you marry . Now if a gay couple want children they must go outside of the marriage to procreate and by definition be unfaithful willfully . Maybe they know something I don't? They should leave it be , no use buying a pair of shoes for a goldfish.
    Anonymous
    28th Oct 2014
    12:05am
    Can we buy a pair of shoes for an elephant then?
    Aurora60
    27th Oct 2014
    11:20pm
    Most of you are a bunch of one-eyed old fogeys and it's about time you were open to change. There's nothing wrong with same sex couples committing to each other - their sexuality is none of anyone's business but their own. Wake up - the world is changing -for the better!
    Anonymous
    28th Oct 2014
    12:02am
    Wow I think I like you. Who invented the word marriage anyway,the meaning of words change as time moves on. Who cares whether a partnership is called a marriage or civil union,they both mean the same thing in today's language.
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    11:15am
    Agree with you wholeheartedly Aurora60.
    Foxy
    28th Oct 2014
    5:56pm
    Agrees with Aurora60 - simple but great comment!!!
    speakup
    28th Oct 2014
    4:34am
    Your right on the ball Mick its all about votes with any world leaders,just look at all the countries in Europe with all the problems with Muslims,if Political leaders can obtain the votes from Muslims and Gays they are well ahead,the rest don't matter.When i was younger it was always Adam & Eve not Adam & Steve
    speakup
    28th Oct 2014
    4:45am
    Jennie writes "With regards to what God might think first you have to prove that God exists & that it has an opinion" if that is the case then why do they all want to get married in the eyes of God.Let them marry under their own laws.End of problem
    Anonymous
    28th Oct 2014
    8:11am
    Shorten will say and do what he perceives is the populist thing to do. He is, after all, a politician.

    With the smell around his own behaviour I take no notice of this man.
    Anonymous
    28th Oct 2014
    11:05am
    Short one , is nicknamed "pants man" by his own colleagues and is I no position to lecture the rest of the community on ethics .
    He does seem on a suicide mission to offend middle Australia . By his support of minority groups , re imposing a Co2 tax, giving decisions on our successful turn back the boats policy , to a foreign power. Etc etc etc
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    11:19am
    I think most would choose to be married by a celebrant or in a registry office speakup. Not even a lot of heteros choose to be married in churches these days.
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    2:24pm
    Pete, Shorten is an accomplished master of the pseudoscience of victimology. This is what he has trained for all his life. This is all he knows. God forbid, if he ever became PM he would encourage all of Australia to protest as victims.
    MICK
    28th Oct 2014
    10:50pm
    Pete: I would actually vote for Labor if it put up the Carbon Tax again. You and troll Frank defy logic as the tax was working well. ALL Australians are now paying $8 billion a year to the coal, oil and gas industry whilst the rest of the developed world is bringing in their own versions of a price on carbon. Poor soul. You do have not followed the money trail.
    I'll give you credence for the boat people policy. I have been beating that drum for at least 4 years.
    Adrianus
    29th Oct 2014
    9:34am
    mick what about the 2.5 million living below the poverty line? How will increased electricity and other prices pushing up the cost of living benefit low income earners and those who rely solely on welfare?
    mangomick
    28th Oct 2014
    9:05am
    Like most Australians what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is their business but the question I once posed was ,where does changing the moral standard stop. Homosexuality was not that long ago a criminal offence but the law was made to allow consenting adults the right to do what they want in the privacy of their own homes but if society now accepts Gay marriage what is the next thing to change? The age of consent,the right of a dirty old man to fondle a consenting child,sex in the streets. Where does society draw that final moral line. Do we take that moral line back to the days of the early Romans where society lived in a sexual free for all and if we do............ where do I sign up
    alfie
    28th Oct 2014
    9:25am
    How short minded this person is.... if I had a mistress and LOVE is all there is for marriage then I will push for the next MOVEMENT to be able to also marry my mistress because I LOVE her. Nature made us a male or female and to live other than that is a LIE. Hollywood has changed this around with movies and other propagandas that if you don't live the life you feel then you're lying to yourself of who you really are. There are people I know who feel the same as gays but have chosen to take up the challenge and live like a man just as nature has made up. What is their excuse if others can do it?
    alfie
    28th Oct 2014
    9:26am
    Just like Obama, simply a vote buying exercise.
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    9:56am
    I have new found respect for Bill Shorten. Yes, his speech to the Christian Lobby was an act of true leadership. Australia is dragging the chain with granting marriage equality. Bring it on - the sooner the better!
    Anonymous
    28th Oct 2014
    11:19am
    The use of the words marriage equality is a typical Orwellian use of the language by lefty politically correct.
    Homosexuals have legal equality in every sense of the word .
    The fact that they want to invade yet another institution , designed by society to encouraged faithfulness and the raising of children ,
    Personally I find the sexual acts of homosexuals abhorrent , but if they wish to perform these acts within their own home so be it . But I don't want their views on how to live life given oxygen ..,
    Ny19
    28th Oct 2014
    11:29am
    More homophobic ignorance! More unintelligible nonsense!
    MICK
    28th Oct 2014
    10:52pm
    I'm with you on this post Pete.
    Adrianus
    30th Oct 2014
    4:18pm
    Yes, well said Pete!
    Adrianus
    30th Oct 2014
    4:20pm
    I haven't changed my view of Bill Shorten following his speech.
    Kopernicus
    30th Oct 2014
    11:35pm
    Times are a changin. Today I heard a description of the 1975 Royal Commission into Family life which covered areas like DV, child abuse, homosexuality, single parents 'defacto' families, divorce. Boy, did that stir the pot then and how all those issues would not be questioned today.
    Most Australians support gay marriage - all you fogies as Aurora described most of you, get with it.
    Adrianus
    31st Oct 2014
    6:59am
    Kopernicus, I will never become gay. Just because everybody does it , it does not make it right.
    Jennie
    31st Oct 2014
    10:40am
    You do realise Frank that being gay is not a choice? It's genetically determined. You did not choose to be heterosexual, it's how you were born.
    Adrianus
    31st Oct 2014
    3:26pm
    Thank you Jennie!
    Are you saying that I got just the right amount of testosterone when I was in the womb? That's possible I guess? I do have a long ring finger.
    I think scientists agree that during foetal development our sex determines the 'cut off' point of testosterone received.
    You may have something though because a 'Homosexual' gene has been identified in men but not in women who enjoy the company of other women. I don't know how much of an influence our environment is but it would be interesting to see statistics of both male and female adoptions to gay couples in adulthood.
    Adrianus
    31st Oct 2014
    6:00pm
    Does anyone know of a male couple who have adopted a female? Just asking?
    Abby
    31st Oct 2014
    6:40pm
    Many identical twins are born with one being homosexual and the other heterosexual - born that way ???
    Kopernicus
    1st Nov 2014
    6:39am
    Frank, your response is shallow. No one is asking you to 'become' gay. My suggestion to you is live and let live.

    By the way Abby, I've met numerous gay individuals (no, I am not gay myself), I have yet to meet one who 'chose' to be gay - a popular opinion among those who don't have a clue.
    Adrianus
    1st Nov 2014
    7:44am
    Kopernicus, it is interesting that you have met numerous gay individuals and discussed with them how they became gay.
    I have not met anyone who will own up to voting for the previous government either.
    Kopernicus
    1st Nov 2014
    7:59pm
    I don't think it's that interesting. Perhaps it's you that lives an the closet, get around a bit.
    Katie
    28th Oct 2014
    2:33pm
    I agree, marriage is , amongst other thing, about raising children in a secure relationship, and preservation of mankind.
    These gay relationships are valid as relationships, but are not marriage.
    It may not sound fair, but men can't have babies, is that fair? Or is it just a fact of nature that needs to be accepted? That doesn't amount to " lack of recognition", it's just how it is.
    Adrianus
    28th Oct 2014
    2:50pm
    Katie, simply and beautifully put!! We will be nothing without our family values. Children learning and growing need roll models. The word equality has a different meaning now than it had when I was going to school.
    The labor party is full of homosexuals seeking so called equality. Their equality goes much further than having pedestrian crossings painted rainbow and laws to change religious traditions.
    Stoney
    28th Oct 2014
    3:33pm
    I don't particularly care one way or the other about peoples' sexuality, but for the life of me, I can't make sense of the word 'marriage' being used to explain the joining together of two people of the same gender. Give it different name - 'joining', 'intimate union', 'coupling', 'uniting', or something - then we can all forget about the political pointscoring, and get on with our lives without the never-ending drum-beating of the various homosexual groups.
    Anonymous
    30th Oct 2014
    9:15am
    The wording of the Marriage Act does not say marriage is between a man and a man or a woman and a woman.
    It says "between a man and a woman".
    So nothing will change until the Act is changed.
    Ny19
    30th Oct 2014
    9:58am
    If memory serves correct it was John Howard who introduced the wording "between a man and a woman" into the Marriage Act not so long ago. The way homosexual couples live their lives together is in fact "a marriage" of two people, in spite of the fact that the law does not recognise it as such. Their unions are no different in terms of love and commitment than heterosexual couples. The fact that their unions are not recognised as equal marriages is discriminatory.
    miss aisle
    30th Oct 2014
    4:44pm
    If homosexuals want to live together - OK, but it can never be marriage, as such.
    A vagina has a differenct function from an anus.
    Anonymous
    30th Oct 2014
    6:45pm
    Anal Sex Safety and Health Concerns
    http://www.webmd.com/sex/anal-sex-health-concerns
    Adrianus
    30th Oct 2014
    7:23pm
    miss aisle, that is an undeniable fact and puts the argument into perspective.
    Ny19
    30th Oct 2014
    7:58pm
    Appears that some of you think marriage is only about sex? Marriage is about loving relationship, couples supporting each other in union, building their lives and futures together. Sex is one small part of that union and how it is consensually expressed between people is their own business. Heterosexual couples may indulge in anal intercourse too (and do) and Lesbians don't.
    Anonymous
    30th Oct 2014
    8:35pm
    Research conducted by the Australian Research Centre in Sex, Health and Society (ARCSHS) at La Trobe University in 2003, has shown that of the 20, 000 people surveyed, about 1.2% of adults identify as homosexual (gay or lesbian). Among men, 1.6% identify as homosexual, and among women, 0.8% identify as lesbian, while 1.4% of women and 0.9% of men identify as bisexual (see the graphs below). An overview of the study can be found on the ARCSHS website and a four page summary of the study's results can be found here: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/ashr/papers/Sex%20In%20Australia%20Summary.pdf.
    Adrianus
    30th Oct 2014
    8:39pm
    Robiconda sex is not the most important thing in life, but it is not far behind oxygen, water, food, security, love, and a lamb roast. You know a lot more about the subject than I do though.
    Anonymous
    30th Oct 2014
    8:41pm
    So 98.8 percent of us are to dicktated to , as I said personaly I find homosexual sex abhorrent but if they want to practise inside their own homes so be it. But don't expect me to compare their union and family to my own.
    I would not like any children to be brought up in such an environment and for it to be considered normal it's not its a very very tiny minority ..,
    Anonymous
    30th Oct 2014
    10:02pm
    What doesShorten think he will gain, by confronting the majority with inner city trendy views, they aReady vote for him,,
    Adrianus
    30th Oct 2014
    10:37pm
    Shorten is being dictated to by the grand mufti. It is a show of support for his pals at Lakemba, by bringing pressure to bear on ACL. It has nothing to do with the Homos. labor did this when they were in government. They changed their target audience each week, turning groups against each other and dividing the nation.
    Kopernicus
    1st Nov 2014
    8:37am
    Little miss aisle, donno why you point this conversation below the belt. However, you may be happy to note that 30% of heterosexuals have practiced anal sex and 75% oral sex. My guess would be that these numbers would be much higher in a young cohort. Seems like the vagina does get a bit of a rest in 'straight' sex.

    As to why should one entertain sexual fantasies of what same sex couples do in the bedroom (don't forget there are lesbians), beats me. What happens in a bedroom between consenting adults should remain there in my view.
    miss aisle
    1st Nov 2014
    10:01pm
    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
    I think you better read what this blog is all about so you have more of an idea.
    You've got a few things out of context.
    Anonymous
    3rd Nov 2014
    12:27pm
    Miss Aisle I was brought up to be well mannered. However, my well manners were preceived as being weak when I did not respond to nastiness directed at me during my lifetime and there were occasions when people walked all over me.

    However, that is not the situation now as I have gained more experience in life and if someone makes a nasty uncalled for remark I will respond and not just walk away as I did for many many years.

    One does not have to be rude in the response but you can make it known that you will not stand for uncalled for nastiness. I have found it works.
    Kato
    29th Oct 2014
    7:00pm
    http://www.partyforfreedom.com.au/2014/10/28/south-africas-white-genocide-why-is-the-world-silent/
    miss aisle
    31st Oct 2014
    7:58am
    Through family visits, I have watched boys grow up -
    one whose father basically ignored him - no bond at all...
    another whose father was excessively strict - emotionally...
    Both had homosexual outcomes.
    There must be many boys who, for whatever reason, have been unable to form a loving bond with their fathers.

    When adolescents/adults, sadly, many are on a constant quest (subconscious) for their
    father's love & acceptance; and are drawn to men.
    If only these young boys could get expert help when they needed it.
    Anonymous
    31st Oct 2014
    9:06am
    Have known a fair few HETEROSEXUAL men - even within my own family - who have experienced pretty lousy fathering.......
    miss aisle
    31st Oct 2014
    9:21am
    The results of bad parenting show up in a variety of different ways & results in
    a variety of different behaviours.
    Childhood sexual abuse survivors share similar feelings, but, result in a variety of
    different behaviours.
    It's all about trying to survive......
    Adrianus
    31st Oct 2014
    11:28am
    I think it's possible that many young men would struggle with the true meaning of love and it's relationship with human behaviour. It helped me when I was growing up to recognise the different types of love and how each one plays a significant roll in people's lives. The person I mainly turned to for help in understanding was Erich Fromm and his book "the art of loving." Probably not typical reading for a young male but I was hungry and had no body to ask.
    Interestingly, 25 years later having reread the book I found it more relevant and gave it to my son. I still think the best thing you can do for your children is to teach them how to think, not what to think.
    Ricky Martin said recently that his little boy asked him 'dad did I come out of your tummy?' I guess it's all part of the way you want to think?
    Anonymous
    31st Oct 2014
    5:31pm
    Good post Frank and good reading too. I particularly like this quote by Fromm:

    Why should society feel responsible only for the education of children, and not for the education of all adults of every age?
    miss aisle
    31st Oct 2014
    6:12pm
    Very sad for children when life is confusing & there's no-one to ask, (or tell).
    You must have realized, even at a young age, if you need info to go & find it.
    I'm amazed sometimes at human nature - why some actively go after what they need while some probe in different, more harmful directions.
    Have read a book called A Child Called "It" written by
    Dave Pelzer - How he could rise above the torture he endured... touched my very soul. Made my childhood ordeals seem insignificant.
    Did it make a big impression on your son, as well?
    miss aisle
    31st Oct 2014
    6:14pm
    Erich Fromm's book, I mean.
    Anonymous
    31st Oct 2014
    6:30pm
    Frank, after your saying that you've read Erich Fromm's book twice, I am surprised that you can then turn around and say this:

    Kopernicus, I will never become gay. Just because everybody does it , it does not make it right. (Frank 31st Oct 2014)

    People do not become gay Frank-they are born that way.
    Abby
    31st Oct 2014
    6:52pm
    Explain identical twins one is heterosexual and the other is homosexual ???

    Some men are heterosexual and have a family ... only to become homosexual late in life ???

    There more to it than just saying they were born that way.
    Adrianus
    31st Oct 2014
    7:12pm
    miss aisle, I cannot understand why people bring children into the world and are not prepared to have a red hot go at getting them ready to leave the nest. Some children learn to survive regardless of their parents. The lazy option is to go with the flow and not question things. I have been very interested in human endeavour and how people triumph regardless of what life throws at them. I have more respect for someone who has succeeded through adversity. Dave Pelzer appears to be a real survivor. You sound like you have a story to tell too? My son has his own timeline on his self educating and that's ok he can take his time. I'm just loving that we have such a great relationship.
    Adrianus
    31st Oct 2014
    7:24pm
    Micha, thanks for the compliment. :)
    In answer to your question, It's my humour. I was reacting to the fact that we have a lot of pro Homosexual media but no pro heterosexual. I find that a little unusual? We don't have politicians encouraging heterosexual marriage so why the encouragement for gay marriage? I'm not being anti gay. I am just making an observation. I love that quote you posted. Here's one that I like and I think Fromm is touching on his description of mature love, which I feel is important for younger people to understand.

    “Love is a decision, it is a judgment, it is a promise. If love were only a feeling, there would be no basis for the promise to love each other forever. A feeling comes and it may go. How can I judge that it will stay forever, when my act does not involve judgment and decision.”
    ? Erich Fromm, The Art of Loving
    Adrianus
    31st Oct 2014
    7:31pm
    Abby, there are environmental factors to consider as well as lifestyle influences. For many I would say it is a conscious decision.
    miss aisle
    31st Oct 2014
    8:05pm
    Will have to put Erich Fromm's book on my list of books to read !
    Good descriptions of thoughts & love put simply.
    When parent & child form a bond & enjoy a great relationship -
    Well, that's an endless love story....
    Anonymous
    31st Oct 2014
    8:41pm
    Another great quote Frank thanks! What I take from it is that we are first attracted to someone because of a chemical compatability but as time goes on, passion starts to fizzle and either turns into love or the relationship ends. That’s why I believe that a healthy long lasting relationship, requires respect, friendship and commitment. Could be the reason why many marriages fail these days because lots of couples are not friends only lovers (but this is all going off topic). Cheers.
    Adrianus
    31st Oct 2014
    9:07pm
    It cannot be off topic if we are talking about marriage? You could put it that way. I always thought he was describing the difference between lust and love. ;)
    miss aisle
    31st Oct 2014
    10:50pm
    Abby - good points! I've heard of men & women marrying, having children & then
    discovering same sex relationships.
    Wondering whether the marriages were just an act to appear normal,
    while having secret dreams, or
    whether boredom suddenly took hold in marriages & led them to something new.
    Must be devastating & confusing for the family members left.
    Anonymous
    1st Nov 2014
    5:44am
    miss aisle, Seems strange in 2014 to hear someone say something like

    "Wondering whether the marriages were just an act to appear normal".

    So what's normal miss aisle? It wasn't that long ago when it was 'normal' for women not to have the right to vote - and they had to fight long and hard to get that right. Likewise up until the 1967 referendum it was considered 'normal' for the indigneous people of this country not to be even included in the census.

    But given that there is diversity in sexual orientation, and no expert on the subject, but think history would show this has always has been the case, it's very likely the person in question was bi-sexual.

    Similarly the fact that homosexuality wasn't decriminalised in this country until the 1970s and then only finally in Tasmania in 1997. It surely can't come as any surprise given the discrimination/stigma attached to being homosexual in times past, that someone would hide this sexual orientation with marriage and having children, as an option to avoid persecution in the hope of gaining societal acceptance thus appearing as you say 'normal'.
    miss aisle
    1st Nov 2014
    10:55am
    shetso - I'd say in 2014 it's pretty well NORMAL to express one's feelings any way one sees fit.

    It wasn't that long ago that the death penalty was normal -
    But, what's that got to do with the price of eggs!

    If women & men started growing 2 sets of genitals - then I would say -
    "engaging in sexual activities with either sex - IS NORMAL!!
    Anonymous
    1st Nov 2014
    11:13am
    As usual the majority are expected to change for the minority. I understand that between 10% to 20% of the world population is gay.
    Anonymous
    1st Nov 2014
    11:22am
    Humans are not just born male and female. There are at least six biological sexes that can result in fairly normal lifespans. Science tells us that there are actually many more than six but they result in spontaneous abortion as the body knows the fetus won’t be viable so it is flushed out of the system in a natural process meant to minimize the amount of nutrients and metabolism devoted to growing non-viable offspring. This is just one site but there are dozens of scientific sites anyone can visit if they need more information.

    http://www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/
    Anonymous
    1st Nov 2014
    11:29am
    Miss aisle: With all the scientific and medical knowledge around and quite available for you to view, I would suggest that your statement:

    ("If women & men started growing 2 sets of genitals - then I would say -
    "engaging in sexual activities with either sex - IS NORMAL!!)

    is totally misguided and completely without foundation. Your views on the subject is simply that, your views do not constitute scientific fact.
    Adrianus
    1st Nov 2014
    11:31am
    Strange post Shetso1, firstly you criticise miss aisle's post then you agree with it in the same post?
    I could be wrong, but I don't think there is conclusive scientific evidence that someone is born homosexual. And we certainly don't need a scientist to tell us that people will behave in accordance with the expectations of others. This obiously can be good or a bad depending on the outcome. When it comes to a physical act a person makes a choice. I have noticed over the years that quite a few people don't think they have choices in life and look for reasons to confirm that logic.
    Anonymous
    1st Nov 2014
    11:49am
    Scientists say they may have discovered why homosexuality exists.Researchers from the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis have said the genetics that makes a person more likely to be gay are passed from fathers to daughters and mothers to sons.They suggest the answer lies in epigenetics, or how the expression of genes is controlled by ‘temporary switches’, such as how a gene behaves, known as epi-marks.Gender-specific epi-marks are usually ‘erased’ from generation to generation, but when they do not and they pass from a parent to a child, it can result in homosexuality.
    miss aisle
    1st Nov 2014
    12:50pm
    Micha - sometimes, just basic common sense is all the fact needed.
    Of course it was said "without foundation" - 99.99....% do not have 2 sets of genitals.
    If they did, (using basic imagination) at least the normal organ would find the normal receiving end.
    Also, with homosexuality, I think there are more waiting answers in "nurture"
    than "nature".
    Adrianus
    1st Nov 2014
    1:40pm
    Micha, if that were the case then why would people spend years agonising? Why not just get Pathology to tell you if you are gay?
    I may look at it differently when a blood test confirms and instructs a person on their sexual activity. As far as I'm concerned the penis goes into the vagina and that is how babies are made. Anything else can be left to your imagination.
    Anonymous
    1st Nov 2014
    1:55pm
    Miss aisle: this might come as a surprise to you as it did me many many years ago when I first read about it.A hermaphrodite (or intersexed person) is someone who has some or all of the primary sex characteristics of both genders (for example, a penis and a vulva). There are three types of hermaphrodites: true, male pseudo and female pseudo.

    A true hermaphrodite is someone who has both ovary and testicular tissue. The genitalia can vary from completely male or female, to a combination of both or even ambiguous looking. Female pseudo means that a person has XX chromosomes with normal female internal organs but with masculanised genitalia, while male psuedo means that person is born with XY chromosomes. Such a person has testes which are usually hidden in the abdominal cavity. The external genitalia are usually female.
    Apparently this situation is more common than you or I might suspect. Do a bit of googling. Do you subscribe to any medical websites? A lot of info can be obtained on this subject matter.
    Anonymous
    1st Nov 2014
    2:08pm
    Frank: We live in a society where people are not quite free to be who they are and in many instances people would rather live with the knowledge that they are "different" rather than risk being demonised. A lot of gay people realise they are gay from a very young age and many still live at home. They are even afraid to tell their parents so going to Pathology for blood tests would be a problem for them. Besides, I don't know how much Pathology can tell from one blood test or whether it requires a prolonged series of tests. Regardless of all of this, I don't think anyone would choose to be gay, even today, when society is so much more accepting.
    miss aisle
    1st Nov 2014
    4:16pm
    Micha - Was aware of hermaphodites, but thanks for the explanation.
    I could understand if these people had problems relating to one gender or the
    other. Guessing that they'd choose the gender dominating in their mind.
    Scientific views seem to vary on most topics - climate change, gays, etc.,
    so, I suppose it depends on which side one is drawn to, as to which view one
    agrees with.
    On the TV serial "A Place to Call Home" shown earlier, it showed what some institutions did to homosexuals - shock treatment with images to look at.
    (In the 1950's, I think)
    Pretty bad, & if I remember right, don't think it worked 100%, even though
    the guy was married with a child & He desperately wanted his marriage to work.
    Have you known anyone where a psychiatrist was able to help after therapy?
    Anonymous
    2nd Nov 2014
    12:12am
    Miss aisle: In answer to your question, I have not personally met anyone who has been in this sort of therapy with a psychiatrist. My wife however is a retired clinical psychologist and has on many occasions counselled troubled people of all ages including homosexual young men and women. From what she tells me the aim is not to try and cure anyone, but to help provide them with the tools to live their lives as fully as they are able to within the confines that society has placed them in.
    miss aisle
    2nd Nov 2014
    9:06am
    Thanks Micha. It's just that after decades of expert help, I was able to develop
    self esteem (some). I realize, - different circumstances.
    Now when I receive criticism, I make it a point to answer back,
    (even if I don't feel like it) so I don't fall back into the habit of retreating into my shell. Never ever thought I'd be able to interact socially, but miracles happen.
    Anonymous
    2nd Nov 2014
    11:37am
    Miss aisle: I admire your honesty and am glad that you're doing so well. Criticism has proved to be an excellent tool for me during my life because on many an occasion it has enabled me to see things in a different light. I like this quote by Winston Churchill:

    “Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body; it calls attention to the development of an unhealthy state of things. If it is heeded in time, danger may be averted; if it is suppressed, a fatal distemper may develop."

    Cheers.
    miss aisle
    2nd Nov 2014
    2:40pm
    Excellent quote! Have written it down.
    Adrianus
    2nd Nov 2014
    9:41pm
    Miracles do happen, but only because people who are in need of a miracle draw on their inner strength and find the courage to bring about the change required to achieve their goals. Good for you miss aisle. :)
    miss aisle
    3rd Nov 2014
    8:39am
    Thank you so much Frank!
    Was told my tenacity was moving me forward.
    Despite a few phobias, feel like broken wings have mended, now I can fly.....
    ballaratboy
    4th Nov 2014
    11:15am
    In reply to GHOTI (27/10/14), the reason many older people object to same sex marriage is because we were brought up in a time when there was more morality in our world. No one wants to discriminate against gays, but they have high jacked the institution of marriage and are demanding that what has been the norm for centuries, must be changed, just to satisfy their demands. With the weak, jelly spined leaders we have in our country nowadays, I am afraid same sex marriage is only a matter of time.
    miss aisle
    5th Nov 2014
    4:46pm
    I really cannot understand how same sex couples can compare what they're
    experiencing to marriage?
    What's wrong with accepting the big difference between the 2 & be satisfied with
    living together.
    It wasn't so long ago that gays would have been over the moon just to have
    homosexual acts de-criminalized.

    4th Nov 2014
    9:12pm
    Pete
    30th Oct 2014
    8:35pm
    Research conducted by the Australian Research Centre in Sex, Health and Society (ARCSHS) at La Trobe University in 2003, has shown that of the 20, 000 people surveyed, about 1.2% of adults identify as homosexual (gay or lesbian). Among men, 1.6% identify as homosexual, and among women, 0.8% identify as lesbian, while 1.4% of women and 0.9% of men identify as bisexual (see the graphs below). An overview of the study can be found on the ARCSHS website and a four page summary of the study's results can be found here: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/ashr/papers/Sex%20In%20Australia%20Summary.pdf.
    Anonymous
    4th Nov 2014
    9:15pm
    We are talking about a very tiny minority of people ..
    rtrish
    5th Nov 2014
    2:10pm
    As well as speaking in support of gay marriage, Bill Shorten also spoke about "blended families", and this is a topic which might affect far more of us than gay marriage. Blended families comprise all sorts of people, some of whom won't be amenable no matter what the circumstances. But it is pleasing to see many people putting aside their differences, celebrating teach other at events like birthdays and graduations, and supporting other family members in hardship or illness.
    Charlie
    31st Oct 2017
    11:48am
    There is no such thing as marriage equality in Australia because it is not an equality issue.

    It is called "same sex marriage" Any future laws about it will refer to same sex marriage.

    There has been a lot of stupidity and idealism about how the principle of equality can be applied to things.
    It certainly doesn't include anything and everything because throughout our workplace and our lives we have examples of inequality that exist for very good reasons


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