Trade agreement signed

Australia and China have signed an historic trade agreement

Australia and China have signed an historic trade agreement which will see the two countries more commercially aligned. The initial three-year deal, marked by the signing of a ‘declaration of intent’ by the two trade ministers yesterday, will eventually remove the barriers to Australia exporting dairy products and will open up China’s booming services sector for those Australian companies looking to enter the Chinese market. In return, Australia will immediately remove tariffs on most imported goods, with a phase-in for textiles, car components and steel.

The higher threshold for scrutiny of private investment has also been removed, however, Australia refused to change its practice of having the Foreign Investment Review Board scrutinise all investment by state-owned Chinese businesses. In return, Australia failed to secure tariff reductions on rice, wheat, cotton, sugar and oilseeds.

Chinese president Xi Jinping said the agreement “will provide a higher level platform ... for our economic cooperation”. While Tony Abbott said the agreement would “add billions to the economy and create jobs.” Opposition leader Bill Shorten also welcomed the deal, but he stated that he was keen to see the detail and was disappointed that the tariff on thermal coal was not being immediately removed. Under the agreement, the three per cent tariff on coking coal will be removed immediately, but the six per cent tariff will remain for two years.

While exact details of the deal signed by Trade Minister Andrew Robb and his counterpart, Gao Hucheng, have yet to be revealed or fully modelled, it has been hailed as a win by the president of the National Farmers Federation, Brent Finlay. Mr Finlay said the agreement was at least equal to the deal struck by New Zealand and China six years ago.

However, the Labor opposition could still throw a spanner in the works, with two contentious points remaining which may impede the passage of the legislation. These are the provisions for temporary entry of Chinese workers and those which allow investors to take dispute settlement proceedings against the government of the country in which they are investing.

While some of the tariffs are being removed immediately, the full agreement will not be signed until next year. It is estimated that at this time, the percentage of Australian exports entering China tariff-free will rise to 85 per cent, increasing to 93 per cent within four years and 95 per cent when fully operational within 10 years.

Read more at TheGuardian.com.au 

Opinion: Don’t count your chickens…

Although the new trade agreement with China may only be a ‘declaration of intent’, we may soon be counting the real cost of any such deal.

I’m a great believer that you get nothing for nothing and while on paper the trade deal with China seems a boon to Australian industry, I can’t help but think the lack of actual economic modelling before signing may come back to bite. Sure, having increased exports of commodities, such as beef and wine, an emerging nation requires may help our struggling dairy farmers and wine producers, but an increase in Chinese investment in Australia doesn’t necessarily translate to an increase in jobs for Australians. Nor does the increase in less expensive imports from China help our already battered manufacturing sector. It will spell the end of the Australian steel industry.

Chinese-owned companies, which invest in overseas countries, are known to simply fly in the staff they need, pay them the commensurate salaries of what they would earn in China and offer little or no employment opportunities for ‘outsiders’. So anyone hoping for an employment boom on the back of Chinese companies investing in Australia may be seriously disappointed.

And given the outcry surrounding our property market being buoyed by Chinese investors, affording a home anytime soon isn’t going to get any easier for your average Australian. The Chinese accounted for 91 per cent of applications and 86 per cent of grantees for Significant Investor Visas last financial year. The visa allows foreigners investing at least $5 million, which can include property investment, to qualify for residency in Australia. With the removal of the higher threshold for investment which is subject to scrutiny by the Foreign Investment Review Board, this basically opens the door for Chinese investors to jump the visa queue.

So, by all means let us enter mutually beneficial trade agreements with other countries, but perhaps we should go into them with our eyes open and the proper economic modelling carried out.

Given the failure of previous Australian trade agreements, do you think that this arrangement is as good as we’re being led to believe? Or does increasing our trade with China leave us vulnerable, with too many eggs in one basket?





    COMMENTS

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    Wstaton
    18th Nov 2014
    10:47am
    I fear this type of agreement. I believe we are setting ourselves up to eventually be bullied by China by becoming to independent of them. We have already seen the problems being caused with 457 visa's. China is starting to make themselves a military super power and I can see the day when if we try to rein back the excesses of cheap labour, reining back the buying of our land and investments then they will really put the pressure on.

    I personally see our greedy corporations being part of the problem by buying from China cheap products made by cheap labour most of the time selling here at a prices far greater than the cost of producing them but still comparatively cheap than that can be produced locally.

    We allow overseas countries to buy up are land but are denied being able to buy land in return in those countries. We are after quick money for quick returns and selling off our future generations land that have been fought for in the past. Do what a lot of countries do lease the land and get a continuous income and at least have to opportunity of it returning to us when the lease runs out. Isn't that how private enterprise works. A lot of people in Australia lease land/properties to Australians the government should only allow this for overseas investors.

    Oh pray for me Australia.
    Grateful
    18th Nov 2014
    11:26am
    Investments less than $1 billion do not require F.I.R.B. approval. Says it all for mine. China TAKES!!!
    But, just heard a wonderful speech to our Parliament by P.M. Doni. Now, THEY are the ones we want a FTA with, yet, our trade with India dropped 20% last year.
    That is where we should be working our hardest.
    PM Doni would be the most impressive person to have graced our Parliament for decades. Contrary to all those other "leaders" in the G20, highlighted by the actual prime agenda set by Australia, P.M. Doni, in wanting growth and infrastructure, doesn't want it just for the sake of growth, he wants it to improve the quality of life of his people, not, just their bank balances!!!! What a refreshing change to what we have had stuffed down out throats for the past 18 months.
    nightie
    18th Nov 2014
    2:43pm
    I agree with you Wstaton, China is only interested in China and what it can get out of the world, it has not floated its currency which will affect Australia negatively, If China is considered a developing country how come it has the money to invest in Australia's prime real estate and water supply. We should stop buying food from China because that industry is not regulated like ours and anything goes, the world consumption of cheap goods is increasing landfill and detrimentally bad for the environment.China has no recognition of trademarks or copyright and continues to make the cheapest copies of branded goods. I try to buy as little as possible anything that is made in China.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    8:40pm
    Agree. Read my post further down. This is a serious matter and I think that we are being sold down the gurgler.
    Paddles
    19th Nov 2014
    10:16pm
    I can see it now..........an updated version of the old "Yellow Peril" syndrome.
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    11:49pm
    I hope they know what they are doing with that Yellow Peril He is selling them ??
    Oldie87
    18th Nov 2014
    11:01am
    I am now waiting to see the visceral hatred of PM Abbot appearing on this page.
    I am not an economist so I can't voice an authoritative view here, but I find it interesting that we are directed to the 'Guardian' newspaper for further information. One of the most leftwing publications there is.
    DavidB
    18th Nov 2014
    12:22pm
    Oldie81, can't agree more. By the way, I wouldn't read the Guardian in a fit... I have though, hence my attitude towards it.
    Anonymous
    18th Nov 2014
    12:48pm
    Guardian , Fairfax , Abc Crickey , we need a Fox News in Australia as balance ...
    dougie
    18th Nov 2014
    2:52pm
    The Guardian is good, you can cut it into squares a string through one corner and hang it in the thunderbox for general use. Be aware it stains!
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    3:18pm
    I'm half way through the Advanced coarse !. *^%@)!L^* #$@!(&^I%&# ! It says I wont be left behind ....
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    8:40pm
    Read my post further down. This is a serious matter and I think that we are being sold out.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    9:00pm
    I could have told You that 5 Years back Mick !! I think I did ?..
    dougie
    18th Nov 2014
    11:05am
    How can we comment? Show us the total facts and then let us decide whether coup or blunder.

    Todays words will be full of hatred and viscaral comment on Tony Abbott over this agreement. Surely the administrators of this site can show some responsibility and monitor comments to ensure fairness of discussion.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    12:10pm
    Yes! Please save all Smutty comments until the New Land Owners have Settled Comfortably onto their New Properties .. Thank You !!
    Anonymous
    18th Nov 2014
    2:59pm
    In the meantime particolor you'd better start your mandarin lessons!
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    3:36pm
    Answer Above ^ The Page Moved !!..
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    8:43pm
    I agree with fairness. I also agree with honesty and not attacking the poor whilst rewarding the richest amongst us.
    Please read my post below before you defend those who continue to sell us out.
    wally
    18th Nov 2014
    11:28am
    I hope that Australia's agreement with China is more beneficial to Australia than Free Trade Agreements made with other countries have been. When Mr. Abbott says that this FTA with China will be worth Billions and create jobs, I sure hope he means these benefits will accrue to Australia and not elsewhere. Considering that the Chinese still maintain tariffs on rice cotton, oil seeds wheat and cotton, it would seem that the agreement is not exactly a level playing field. I would hope that the bureaucrats that did the actual preparation and presentation of the agreement have been thorough in their efforts to secure the best deal for Australian producers.
    Should the Senate approve the agreement, it might be a good time to fire up the Foreign Investment Review Board and reduce the threshold at which overseas purchases are more closely scrutinised and even rejected.
    After all, it is time our leaders and their bureaucratic "Sir Humphries" work for the benefit of all Australians who pay to keep them in jobs.
    Grateful
    18th Nov 2014
    12:15pm
    Wally. They are INCREASING the threshold for F.I.R.B. to $1billion!!! Australia might be winning extra "$billions" from the deal, but, I bet it will also COST us $billions in lost assets and employment.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    8:47pm
    The problem with this 'agreement' wally is that nobody yet knows the full extent of what is in it. We have not been told. And that on its own is a reason for concern.
    You need to be aware that the FIRB is a rubber stamp and that it knocked back one deal in 10 years. That tells a story.
    Please read my comment below as the purchase of our farming land by the Chinese government grants real benefits for the Chinese. This does not appear to be a good deal but I await the details...if we are ever told.
    wally
    18th Nov 2014
    11:32pm
    mick, I think we are in accord on this one. The bureaucrats of ivory tower fame and their "political masters" have treated us all like mushrooms for decades. Even before the Lima Accord of the 1970's the "mandarins" of the public service have entrenched themselves in the running of the country and seem to regard the ministers (supposedly) responsible for these departments as merely "blow ins" and interlopers who will only be a temporary inconvenience as the BBC Yes Minister made clear.
    With this bit of background info laid out, I think that the process of keeping us all in the dark while the powers that be carry on (as before) in the "business as usual" will continue. We can only hope that the Civil Service Mandarins are acting in Australia's best interests. Whether these hopes prove to be justified or not is yet to be seen. The bureaucratic penchance for stuffing things up for the betterment of us all makes me have my doubts.
    Tom Tank
    18th Nov 2014
    11:43am
    Is this FTA all about looking after sectional interests?
    It has to be a real concern if Chinese workers will be allowed to come in to this country and get paid Chinese wages when we are desperate to find work for our own people.
    It also begs the question of will Australia have any say who comes in? Will that leave us open to undesirable elements being able to walk in?
    We currently spend millions of dollars controlling our borders preventing any Tom, Dick or Harry entering Australia and will this FTA ride roughshod over that?
    Given the politics involved perhaps we have a right to be concerned that this deal will adversely affect the ordinary Australian.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    12:14pm
    I'm Desperate !! Ill work for a Gallon of Milk a Month !!
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    8:49pm
    Governments of both persuasion have been doing things for which neither have had any mandate. This is because some of these deals are against the national interest.
    read my comment below for more information.
    Paddles
    19th Nov 2014
    10:24pm
    Tom Tank

    The proposed FTA or any other bilateral agreement in the area of trade cannot, and will not, have any bearing upon other legislation such as Border Protection. We have a system of 457 visas which imposes stringent conditions upon those seeking to bring foreign workers into the country.
    particolor
    20th Nov 2014
    9:32pm
    AH !! They'll waver that Like everything else lately !!
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    12:17pm
    I like Oldies81 Comment !! As I don't see many Lefties here yet I cant Wait !..
    Oldie87
    18th Nov 2014
    1:06pm
    Maybe they are still asleep.
    Don't worry, it's early yet. :-)
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    1:55pm
    While they are Sleeping ! I'll put a FOR SALE Sign on Australia and put it on E/Bay !!
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    2:50pm
    Old King Coal has gone Very Quit ? I hope the Food at the Banquet didn't disagree with Him ?
    Polly Esther
    18th Nov 2014
    4:20pm
    they're busy waving their red flags at all the bullshit.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    8:49pm
    I'll be cynical: they have clocked off for the day maybe.
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    3:23pm
    Ill be Sarcastic and say they never Miss a Bloody Word on here Mick !!
    Might cop a Pay Cut ??
    Young
    18th Nov 2014
    12:24pm
    I did not hear any outcry when the declaration of intent between USA and China over climate change was made,and China is going to use our coal and pollute for another 16 years before it commits.What a laugh.
    Many groups will benefit from this great deal,as many will benefit from our deals with Japan,Korea and soon India.Great news.
    wally
    18th Nov 2014
    11:44pm
    This was a major Obama "masterstroke of diplomacy" and typical of his grandstanding which is all blow and no show. It took the Yanks six years to wake up to the fact the man is a fraud, as shown by the fact that a lot of his fellow Democrats (due for re=election earlier this month) did not want to be seen with him as they sought voter support. This is something our media talking heads who think they know what is best for us have failed to recognize. No wonder Abbott and the other G 20 leaders showed little interest in Obama's prattling on about climate change and stuck to the task of tweaking economies to greater job growth and prosperity for their people.
    MICK
    19th Nov 2014
    8:59am
    Obama is more a toothless tiger than a fraud. I mean who do you think owns the game in the US? The fact that Obama failed at even getting background checks in for gun purchasers tells a fairly obvious tale.
    Its not that he was ever a "fraud" but just that he is a powerless figurehead. Had he started a war anywhere then Obama would have been given the go ahead.
    KSS
    18th Nov 2014
    12:40pm
    While I am all for governments assisting its industries by making it easier to trade overseas (in both directions) there are some things I am not comfortable with regardless of the nationality of the 'other side':

    1. Allow investment in but keep control of Australian businesses/inductries
    2. Allowing an 'investment visa' for Chinese (or anyone else) should not mean the ability to buy a $5 million dollar harbour front mansion (or 10 $1/2 million dollar residences for that matter). This benefits no-one except the property owner. How is that an investment in Australia?
    3. Allow the purchase of agricultural products (dairy, fruit, veg, meat etc) but do not allow the purchase of the land it is grown on or the water supply it needs.
    4. Allow temporary work visas but they must have a time limit e.g. say 1- 3 years after which no application for residency or migration can be made unless the applicant returns to their country of origin and makes their application from there. All workers accessing these visas should be able to read, write and speak English before they come. They must be able to train an Australian to take over their job when the term of the visa expires. They must also be paid at the appropriate Australian rate for the job.
    5. Anyone wanting to set up an enterprise in Australia must employ a minimum 50% Australian employees at start-up and increase to say 95% over say 5 years.
    6. Any goods imported under these agreements must comply with ALL Australian standards - including those for agricultural products (no more importing vegs grown in human waste or treated with banned chemicals). Australia cannot allow itself to be a dumping ground for dangerous cheap goods of any kind.
    7. Allow the purchase of raw materials but not the businesses that supply them i.e. sell the coal but not the mine.
    8. All enterprises set up in Australia by foreign nationals must comply with all Australian legislation an equal Australian enterprise is subject to, including the payment of tax.

    There are many more suggestions I could make but the important thing is that yes we can and should have investment in Australia to create more opportunities for Australians. It must not mean the selling off of Australia's assets, the exclusion of Australians in the workplace or becoming the dumping ground for inferior and dangerous products.
    Anonymous
    18th Nov 2014
    12:58pm
    Where will get the money to develop our country.
    The US followed by the Brits are by far the biggest investors in Australia . We have to compete with many countries to attract capital .
    This has made us the richest people n the world.
    Now India is joining in and creating the biggest coal mine in the world with an eleven billion dollar investment.
    KSS
    18th Nov 2014
    1:02pm
    Investment is fine. Ownership of Australia's assets is not! What will we do when everything is sold off?
    geomac
    18th Nov 2014
    1:15pm
    That Indian mine is so good it cannot attract commercial investment banking and Newman is going to use taxpayer to help fund it.
    Tom Tank
    18th Nov 2014
    1:19pm
    I'm with you on this KSS.
    We should not sell off Australia and as for having the biggest coal mine in the World!!! Apparently the developers want to import all their own labour. This mine also threatens our Great Artesian Basin and no proper Environmental Impact Study has been done on it.
    I am no Greenie but if there is a threat to the bore water supplies of out inland then that must be seriously examined.
    Australia for far too long has been in the grip of "development" for development's sake without proper consideration given to the future consequences. Capitalism gone made, Adam Smith would be turning in his grave.
    Adrianus
    18th Nov 2014
    3:42pm
    If we don't sell it now they will come and take it later. It's human nature to do what it takes to survive. We have an obligation to do what we can to enrich the lives of the poverty stricken world wide.
    Grateful
    18th Nov 2014
    4:39pm
    Tom Tank. I hope you heard P.M. Doni's address to our Parliament. His difference in attitude to that of our government and most others that we heard, was absolute!! Whereas the other "leaders", sadly, especially ours, were all talking about countries as being "lucrative markets" and "economically very attractive", i.e. "how much money can we screw out of them", P.M. Doni was looking to improve the living conditions of his people, give them all electricity, but, the power would not be detrimental to the environment and not harm nature, Quality of life for people, caring for the environment, not, how much profit can be made out of them.
    Remarkable how "capitalism", "materialism", so dominates the world. More remarkable the outright hypocrisy of the likes of China. Supposedly an un-democratic, communist state, yet, hell bent on making as much money and getting whatever they can at the best price, as possible.
    What we make out of our relationship with India will be counteracted by our nett loss to China. Bet on it!!!
    Grateful
    18th Nov 2014
    4:39pm
    Tom Tank. I hope you heard P.M. Doni's address to our Parliament. His difference in attitude to that of our government and most others that we heard, was absolute!! Whereas the other "leaders", sadly, especially ours, were all talking about countries as being "lucrative markets" and "economically very attractive", i.e. "how much money can we screw out of them", P.M. Doni was looking to improve the living conditions of his people, give them all electricity, but, the power would not be detrimental to the environment and not harm nature, Quality of life for people, caring for the environment, not, how much profit can be made out of them.
    Remarkable how "capitalism", "materialism", so dominates the world. More remarkable the outright hypocrisy of the likes of China. Supposedly an un-democratic, communist state, yet, hell bent on making as much money and getting whatever they can at the best price, as possible.
    What we make out of our relationship with India will be counteracted by our nett loss to China. Bet on it!!!
    KSS
    18th Nov 2014
    7:13pm
    When you are starting from a low base like India, feeding your people and provision of electricity, sanitation and housing would obviously be high on the list. Along with the elevation of women to human beings and not possessions. "The power would not be detrimental to the environment" no because he is going to increase nuclear power just like China (and many other countries) but not Australia. Once they have fed, housed, provided electricity and so on, watch what happens next. The population has more money, they spend more, want more, get more, travel more see more want more.... Just like China. Only problem is, Australia will have nothing left to sell!
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    8:57pm
    KSS: whilst some of your writings are similar to posters like Frank (whose motivations are suspect) I am pleased that you show some patriotism (if that is the right word to use in Australia).
    The nation has been sold out by the political process for decades as everything that should be Australian owned passes, one by one, into the hands of foreigners. First our best companies. Then our resources. And now our freehold farming land........the land which feeds us and which should feed a much larger population in the future.
    We are now up to the next phase where FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS are permitted to buy our ports and our farming land. This is suicide and it is my hope that all on this blog do not roll over as the impact on future Australians will be unlike anything we have ever seen.
    Looking on the bright side is akin to sticking one's head in the sand and hoping that 'Tones' (???) will deliver a good outcome is insanity. This is a time bomb. Maybe read my post below for further information before I get a broadside from the usual left wingers.
    Paddles
    19th Nov 2014
    10:31pm
    Grateful

    Your support for India does you credit but you should agree that probably the best thing that we could do for India would be to provide them with the world's largest vasectomy clinic.
    geomac
    18th Nov 2014
    12:44pm
    The USA deal which was much lauded at the time has resulted in a six billion surplus their way. The devil is in the detail and politicians will always paint a rosy picture so only time will tell. However its worth noting that the China deal was ten years of negotiations so whats been given up to get it over the line ? What have we given away that previously was considered not in our interest to do so ?
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    2:43pm
    You'll Never Know !!
    Grateful
    18th Nov 2014
    4:45pm
    They can buy anything they like up to $1 billion!!!!!! Goodbye Australian owned gas explorers, goodbye family homes for young families.
    Note how Gina Rinehart just put her "hard earned" into a powdered milk processing business, BEFORE the F.T. agreement with China was even signed!!
    Inside information???
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    4:50pm
    Insider Trading ? Tut Tut !!... He! He !!
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    8:59pm
    Agreed geomac. And the Chinese are amongst the best business people on the planet. Be assured that their strategy has been thought through and costed. Also be assured that Australians will be done over AGAIN. The script is well rehearsed.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    9:19pm
    Who was the Idiot who gave Abbott a Pen ?
    KSS
    18th Nov 2014
    9:41pm
    Sorry particolour, it wasn't Mr Abbott who got the pen.
    wally
    18th Nov 2014
    11:47pm
    Yes, I agree that the Devil is in the detail. Or more to the point, the Devils are tweaking the details for their own ends.
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    10:18am
    TWEAK ! TWEAK !!
    Go Rokin Robin Cause Ya Really Gonna Rock Em Tonight !!
    Fred
    18th Nov 2014
    1:13pm
    How will Australia make billions? The Chinese will own the farms, bring in their own workers, own the transport companies and the shipping lines. Are Australian politicians really so stupid? If we run more cattle in the north we will create a desert to feed China. Watch the price of produce go up for us when exports ramp up, as with gas. And watch more industries go to the wall. Politicians are very short sighted and seem not to give a damn for the working people of this country.
    Wstaton
    18th Nov 2014
    1:43pm
    They will own the farms, bring in the labour then ship the stuff back to China at no profit and then sell it there at a profit. Just like these other multinationals moving their profits to tax havens.

    Am I nuts but where does this help Australia with no taxes being applied.
    Adrianus
    18th Nov 2014
    1:56pm
    Fred if a Chinese owned coal mine is using Chinese labour, building roads and rail to ship coal to Chinese vessels at port, what dose it really matter? They have paid very high land prices which will be back to normal when the coal is removed. They have increased jobs for support services. They have paid taxes and royalties which otherwise would not have been paid. The workers have paid taxes and will possibly become new citizens raising their families and enriching our multicultural society. It's a win win all round.
    Wstaton
    18th Nov 2014
    2:25pm
    Frank,

    What a load of crap. The Chinese would buy existing mines, sack all the current workers then bring in their own labourers. These paid a a lower rate than the original workers probably would pay very little income tax compared to the Australian workers.

    The royalties are our right it is our coal and we should get paid for it irrespective of who owns the mining license.

    You should have read my comment above. The resultant coal would be shipped at cost to China paying no taxes on profits after all most of the Chinese companies are state owned. The Chinese labourers would probably ship most of their money home buying very little locally whereas Australian workers would spend, buying food, houses and all.

    You just don't know what the Chinese would ship back in empty coal boats to make it cheaper to have their workers here.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    2:53pm
    AH ! NO !! Not Bricks to build another Great Wall of Australia to Keep us OUT ??
    Adrianus
    18th Nov 2014
    3:31pm
    Wstaton, You should have mentioned all this before the government put in all that effort!
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:05pm
    Wstaton: I have many times accused Frank of being a paid troll for this government. The latest is more of the same. and as you said a load of crap.
    Read my post below. Alan Jones attacked his mate Tony Abbott on radio yesterday stating that 6o Victorian dairy farms were already either owned or in the process of being sold to the Chinese government. This is sickening reality and I have been warning Australians about this for several years. I do not know of other countries which permit their food producing land to be owned by foreign governments. It is insanity of the worst kind and any government which supports this sort of treason should be removed. By that yardstick neither this government nor its predecessor deserve to govern.
    Read my post below.
    crazy one
    18th Nov 2014
    1:15pm
    This agree is going to end up costing Australia money but this person that says that he is a Australian only whats it to appear that he is doing good and how can we make money with the low prices that china is selling for already. This is going to be another great laugh at our expense so how about getting out and let someone do the job with brain.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:07pm
    Get this crazy one. The farm is owned by the Chinese. Labor is flown in and the 'wages' will go back to China. The port belongs to the Chinese government as well, as do the ships. And now there are no tariffs for the Chinese to export to themselves.
    Australians get zero. Nothing. Welcome to starvation as this will be the result for our descendants.
    lindy
    18th Nov 2014
    1:16pm
    Do you honestly think we are allowed to use Australian builders in China under visas!! No way. Australian workers on Australian work sites first please. They dont want us our safety standards are first rate. SOLD US OUT. What would Abbott care.!
    KSS
    18th Nov 2014
    1:21pm
    Lindy have you seen workers on Chinese building sites? Bare footed on bamboo scaffolding. I doubt many Australian workers from the building industry would be lining up to go!
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:10pm
    lindy is making a valid point KSS. She is alluding to a one way deal.
    Have you heard the old saying 'a fool and his money are quickly parted.' It makes a case against us all that we are not in the streets demanding the resignation of the government.
    blessed
    18th Nov 2014
    1:24pm
    i totally agree with your comments. this agreement is selling ourselves short and as far as creating jobs. Do our politicians have rose coloured glasses on. We need to realign our values. we need to realise that we can do everything ourselves. we dont need others to invest in our manufacturing industry or our resources. we have it all. the people, the technology and the know how but what we lack is trust in ourselves, good honest patriotic politicians and people as well. WE SHOULD STAND ON OUR OWN TWO FEET AND NOT BE DEPENDENT ON ANY OTHER COUNTRY....BECAUSE WE DONT HAVE TOO.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:12pm
    We have sold off almost everything blessed. Currently our jobs and our farming land are in the process of going into overseas ownership. Guess what? Farming land feeds its population. The best of ours will be gone in not too many years.
    moke
    18th Nov 2014
    1:32pm
    I think our Government must shop with blindfolds on or perhaps they don' t shop in Australia, for the simple reason it is difficult to purchase anything now days that isn't made in China. A recent purchase of an article imported from USA was made in China and many of our Australian Souvenirs are made in China if they can have companies in Australia it will be made in Australia by China no difference EH!
    KSS
    18th Nov 2014
    1:58pm
    Except there is a 'chance' that they would be made by an Australian in Australia. Of course if there are temporary visas that may not be the case. Hopefully the consensus from G20 may eventually mean the Chinese owned Australian souvenir company in Australia may have to pay tax here. Lots of 'mays' not many 'wills'.....
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    2:25pm
    I like watching Puppies chasing their tails !!
    dougie
    18th Nov 2014
    4:36pm
    So if they supply all of our current needs, how can such an agreement be to their advantage? Politics ! Politics ! Politics is crap!
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    9:31pm
    We have turned into America !!
    geomac
    18th Nov 2014
    1:42pm
    This is why the Productivity Commission basically doesn't rate FTAs particularly highly: "improvements in national income from bilateral preferential agreements are likely to be modest", it concluded. It specifically criticised the most famous FTA, that concluded by the Howard government with the United States, for its draconian Intellectual Property provisions (and US data shows that the AUSFTA coincided with a big rise in Australia's trade deficits with the US). The Productivity Commission also noted the "investor-state dispute settlement provisions in some BRTAs for which there appear to be few benefits and considerable risks" to Australia. And, yes, there's an ISDS provision in the ChAFTA.

    For such reasons, the Productivity Commission recommended that "[b]efore entering negotiations with any particular prospective partner, it should undertake a transparent analysis of the potential impacts of the options for advancing trade policy objectives with the partner. All quantitative analysis and modelling should be overseen by an independent body."

    Did that happen for the ChAFTA? Did anyone do a full modelling of the benefits and costs of an agreement with China over the last decade? Not under the Howard government that began negotiations, not under the Rudd and Gillard governments that continued them, and not under the Abbott government that concluded them. Yesterday, Trade Minister Andrew Robb -- who has diligently and successfully pursued the government's ambitions to sign a number of FTAs as rapidly as possible -- said they there hadn't been "time" to do any modelling.
    Crikey paywall
    Wstaton
    18th Nov 2014
    1:56pm
    How irresponsible is that not doing a modeling before signing an agreement. What's going on here.

    I say bring back the tariffs which will make it easier for our manufacturers to compete. No point in importing all these chines goods if we cannot compete with equivalent exporting of kind. Stuff it if they want to put on tariffs in return that affect their importing of coal and such. All that seems to benefit is the conglomerates.

    Australia should be able to support itself from within. It is shameful that we do not make our own cars, manufacture our own T'V's and more we do not even make our own matches anymore all because we are selling ourselves up. It will only get worse and we will not be a rich country for much longer at this rate we will end up with our workforce slowly going down to Chinese level of wages.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    2:20pm
    Made In.... The PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF AUSTRALIA.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:18pm
    geomac: your reasoning is one reason why I sometimes have to wonder if this country is a country of simpletons. Any individual with single digit IQ would work out the pros and cons of any FTA before signing. It appears to me that governments of the day sign off on deals which their counterparts have worked so that we are done over. The next one is headed our way whilst Tony Abbott will get in front of the cameras and tell us what a wonderful opportunity it is fro Australians. This is why we need to see the full deal and let academics work it through.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    9:29pm
    They are not Politicians they are Businessmen !!
    KSS
    18th Nov 2014
    9:47pm
    God forbid the academics in their ivory towers get their hands on it. They are so far removed from the realities of the real world they have forgotten what real work is. They are great theorists but totally unable to translate them into practice. They leave that to rest of us and write learned papers from the sidelines.
    KSS
    18th Nov 2014
    9:47pm
    God forbid the academics in their ivory towers get their hands on it. They are so far removed from the realities of the real world they have forgotten what real work is. They are great theorists but totally unable to translate them into practice. They leave that to rest of us and write learned papers from the sidelines.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:55pm
    Why are you afraid of the academics picking such a document to pieces KSS? That is one thing they do well. Perhaps there is something in it you might like to confide to us all as I would have thought you'd let those with no vested interests in a FTA be the ones to find the poison?
    KSS
    18th Nov 2014
    10:03pm
    When academics have more than theories to impart, I will be in the front row all agog. They exist to formulate theories, they do not concern themselves with implementation. That is their nature and we need more than theories. We need action.
    MICK
    19th Nov 2014
    8:55am
    Sounds like the same bias you have towards climate science scientists.
    Whilst you may have an opinion about the role of academics, and their shortcomings, this is the place where you will get an unbiased analysis. You know that government employees will not tell you the bad bits and you know the inept media will beat up bits whilst not seeing the obvious. It sounds like you may have had a bad experience during your school years wally. Academics are what they and rarely exist in the real world, but they are good at what they do.
    Adrianus
    18th Nov 2014
    2:07pm
    It's ironic that in the year Protectionist should win the Melbourne Cup Australia has made huge advancements in Free Trade with the worlds biggest consumers. This government is finishing the work started by Paul Keating, although I doubt if he would have liked it to go this far. Australia is definitely open for business because with trade comes better communication, which may even include more openness with political decision making.
    Did anyone notice that Russia was not in a hurry to enter into FTA negotiations?
    Like many posters here negativity will sour your life. A much better option is to try and enrich the lives of others.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    2:23pm
    Would You like a Banana Republic Bananana Frank ??
    Adrianus
    18th Nov 2014
    3:37pm
    I'm a realist parti. I would much prefer a peaceful takeover by China, USA, UK, India, Japan. Than a hostile muslim takeover at a cost to our high standard of living. I was referring to Keating's floating of the $AUS.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    3:49pm
    Strewth ! Did You have to mention them !! We've got enough Troubles without them Stirring the Jam !!
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:24pm
    "Negativity"? Because your employer is getting some heat for his ongoing stupidity and sell out of us all you call it "negativity"? Yeah right!
    The level playing field only exists in one country in the world that I know of: Australia. Other countries protect their own interests. Not us. Everything is for sale: come on in spinner!
    Read my post below for more information.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:55pm
    I can see you have clocked off for the day. Does Tony not pay you overtime Frank?
    wally
    18th Nov 2014
    11:57pm
    Frank, It is interesting to read that you think it is better to enrich the lives of others. I think the Chinese would wholeheartedly agree with you as long as the "others" are Chinese. Or Japanese, Brits, French, Germans or Yanks, depending on their view of which "other" is going to be enriched. I doubt that a lamb having its jugular being torn out by a wolf would regard its demise as enriching the life of the wolf.

    18th Nov 2014
    2:55pm
    Abbott has probably sold Australia to the Chinese for a $1.50 !
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    3:28pm
    + GST !!
    Kato
    18th Nov 2014
    3:52pm
    Don't forget a co-payment.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    4:04pm
    Who Publishes that Hereal Sun Kato ?? I was just reading the Headlines on line ! And it reads like the Best Deal since Canned P**S !!
    Polly Esther
    18th Nov 2014
    4:15pm
    He's not quite that stupid, although I've noticed the way he sometimes dresses.......
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    4:59pm
    Or Not !!
    Rob
    18th Nov 2014
    4:16pm
    It is always refreshing to see that there are some bright lights amongst all the negativity that usually appears in the posts on this site. It would be a lot more refreshing to see those whose first resort is to be negative about any change would offer some constructive views around issues rather than just attacking individuals.

    It would be nice to see people get excited about concepts and improvements rather than adopt an idealogical viewpoint to an issue.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    4:39pm
    Yes !! I've just skimmed around other web sites and Newspapers and its much the same !! Big Wineries in Victoria Lifting their Glasses for a Toast to Tony like they are going to sell a Squillion Gallons of Plonk to China !! And Ten Thousand Gallons of Milk a Minute ??..And not a Mention of they have to sell them the Farm First ?? Thousands of Jobs Created ? I just cant wait to see all this Development !! I've changed My Mind about Tony !!.. And I'm a None of them Voter !!
    Adrianus
    18th Nov 2014
    5:35pm
    Yes, well said Rob!! FTA's with Korea, Japan, China can only be good for Australia. It just would not benefit anyone if we continued down the road of protectionism. You can only live in a bubble for so long.
    Sour grapes from a few will not change this sort of success.
    Tom Tank
    18th Nov 2014
    5:59pm
    Barnaby Joyce has admitted now that our food price will be going up because of this FTA.
    Success???
    Adrianus
    18th Nov 2014
    9:00pm
    I expected food prices to rise in the short term but it should be temporary. What you should notice is white goods and any other imported Chinese goods becoming cheaper over time as Australian retailers become more competitive. The Dairy farmers will be happy they no longer have such reliance on the big supermarkets.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:28pm
    So here is the next "negativity" poster, the word of the day from who knows whom. So who do you represent Rob...or whatever your normal (poster) name is?
    Your post is that of the simple minded. You have to wonder how Australia has managed to exist for as long as it has when you have folk who want to 'look on the bright side' and say things like 'she'll be right' when we are being done over by smart nations who do their homework and get a net gain from any deal.
    AUSTRALIA ALWAYS LOSES. Work it out.
    wally
    19th Nov 2014
    12:07am
    This, as with other FTA's, is going to produce losers as well as winners. It is no surprise that those responsible for putting the FTA through are going to talk up the positives for the winners and sweep the losers under the carpet at the same time. That is all part of the great "Fool the Public" trick the politicians and bureaucrats play on the Australian public so whose ox is the one to be gored? Time, as usual, will tell.
    Adrianus
    19th Nov 2014
    6:51am
    Spot on wally. I would also add that simply having the FTA in place is not going to make Australia a winner. The FTA is simply the bridge to opportunity. This is what many posters like mick fail to see. It will now be up to Australians to take advantage of the government's initiative. This is a difficult concept for lefties to get their head around, but many Aussies are celebrating.
    Tom Tank
    19th Nov 2014
    8:45am
    Does anyone seriously think that if the Chinese goods are imported at a lower price that this will result in cheaper prices for the consumer?
    If they do they are living in La La land.
    Prices are not based upon the cost but on what the market will pay. Lower import price higher profit. That is the way businesses operate these days.
    MICK
    19th Nov 2014
    8:51am
    Frank: talking up the government. As usual. Of course the previous trade deals where we are the losers never get mentioned whilst history will most likely repeat itself. From what I have seen from this government ordinary Australians will be the losers again. But being a fair minded person I await the devil in the detail....which is likely not going to be released until after the deal is done.
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    9:47am
    Frank for VICE President of La La Land .. Seem to know how the Company Operates ?
    Adrianus
    19th Nov 2014
    8:16pm
    I would rather look at the positives.
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    8:35pm
    Tom Tank For CEO He really knows how the Company works !!
    Adrianus
    19th Nov 2014
    9:01pm
    Tom the Tank, you seem to know a lot about how a business operates. How many businesses have you operated?
    Young
    18th Nov 2014
    4:30pm
    Totally agree Rob.
    Never much positive enthusiasm on this site.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    4:42pm
    I'm Smiling look > :-)
    Fred
    18th Nov 2014
    5:05pm
    When this government comes up with some positive ideas I'll be dancing in the street.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:31pm
    I have to admit to being a 'glass half empty' type of guy. But then when you look at what has been happening in the country for the last 30 years and when you look at the shrinking part of Australia which Australians actually own then you have to do other than kid yourself Billy.
    "Show me the money" and show me the deal. Funny how the details are not available for scrutiny isn't it?
    KSS
    18th Nov 2014
    9:59pm
    In case you haven't seen it Wstaton posted the link to the published agreement on the dfat website. See below. I doubt there is much more detail to be had at this very early stage. Yes early stage even after 10 years negotiation.
    Wstaton
    18th Nov 2014
    5:12pm
    Here you are people some bedtime reading if you want to know all about it.

    http://dfat.gov.au/fta/chafta/fact-sheets/key-outcomes.html
    Young
    18th Nov 2014
    5:13pm
    Mr/mrs.Particolour.Mr or whoever sarcastic.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    9:05pm
    Sarcastic Me Bum !! I've just got a different way of saying things !
    wally
    19th Nov 2014
    12:09am
    Sarcastickally?
    wally
    19th Nov 2014
    12:11am
    Sourcasticly?
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    10:08am
    Sour Cream and Chives !
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    8:37pm
    Thanks Debbie for putting this on the agenda. Your assessment of what is in this for Australians is quite valid.
    The possibility of the Chinese flying in their own workers in is only a part of what is unfolding. The Chinese own their own ships and are buying Australian ports. Quite unbelievable.
    You may have also caught an on air attack on Tony Abbott by his mate Alan Jones. This came as quite a surprise but Jones has been batting for a fair go for farmers for some time and stated on air that 60 Victorian farms are either Chinese government owned or are in the process of going through the sales process. So the free trade agreement may well be little more than the total elimination of Australian interest in growing food for overseas requirements.
    I would love to know where our (supposed) 'free media' is. Australians need to be told.
    I have been writing about the sale of our freehold farming land to foreign governments for some time. I found an article which claimed that ex pollies Bob Hawke and Alexander Downer were involved in this and whilst I do not know if this is true or not I state that if true then the media is hiding this from the public. This would amount to a betrayal of the nation and something needs to be done before Australians cease to own anything, including their food producing land in their own country.
    This is a serious matter which all decent Australians need to embrace irrespective of which side of politics they are on.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    8:55pm
    Mick I've been saying this in a Joking sort of way for ages now !! But everyone thinks I am a Joke, I think ? .
    Maybe their Nigh Nighs is over now and they have a good look at the goings on !! ..
    Have Fun ..
    KSS
    18th Nov 2014
    9:33pm
    Mick I don't know what you read but foreign ownership of of both agricultural land and water rights has been in the media for a few years now. So much for your pot-shot at the "free press". It has been there for quite some time. Shame you seem to have missed it.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:41pm
    You make some pertinent comments in a non confrontational manner particolor. I am an 'all guns blazing' sort of guy who hates crooks, corruption and political trolls...as I am sure you have noticed.
    My greatest concern about the FTD is that the truth may be intentionally hidden from the public whilst we continue to be fed garbage from the big business media outlets whose aim is to keep us entertained lest we take a real interest interest in the world around us.
    Whilst I am hopeful that this deal is fully scrutinised by non government bodies I hold my concerns that this is the next decree from a dishonest leader and that the negative sections may be hidden from us all until it is a done deal and too late to change. Such is my distrust of this government.
    MICK
    18th Nov 2014
    9:49pm
    KSS: I acknowledge what you say and of course you are correct. My point is that the sale of our FREEHOLD FARMING LAND TO FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS gets little or no oil from the media which would prefer not to report this issue at all.
    This issue is a bit like men's health issues on the 7 and 9 media: hardly ever mentioned. I am sure that not many Australians are aware what is going on.
    particolor
    18th Nov 2014
    9:57pm
    Mick.. I have always been a wake up to all that's going on in this Once Great Nation ! An Avid News Listener and One eyed Talk back shows Sometimes But not lately as Its all cash for Comment !! Mention The Labor party and Suddenly the announcer says its a bad line and they are Cut Off !! He! He !!.. That went on even when Labor was in Power ! Mention the Liberal Party and the Announcer Starts Drooling !! Its so noticeable its Sickening !! I vote for NONE of the Crooks and haven't for Bloody Years now !! We had Good Independents once ? But even they have gone now ?. Or they are Stooges ? :-(
    Grateful
    19th Nov 2014
    10:11am
    Free TRADE agreement. "Trade" is an oxymoron. With threshold for buying increased to $1 billion before F.I.R.B. involvement, you can count on there being far more buying than trading!!! Chinese businesses and individuals have access to $trillions, say no more!!
    Anonymous
    19th Nov 2014
    10:19am
    Why does Australia need foreign investment?

    Foreign investment supplements Australia’s domestic savings to enable us to expand our economy. Foreign investment fills the gap between what Australia saves and what Australia invests each year. In 2013, 85 per cent ($317 billion) of Australia’s capital flow was sourced from domestic savings while 15 per cent ($55.6 billion) was sourced from overseas (ABS catalogue 5204.0, 2013). Without foreign investment Australia would be unable to build our economy to its full potential and would have less funds available to spend on hospitals, schools, roads and other government services.

    http://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/investment/faq.html

    This is a good read and will dispel many myths ...
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    10:23am
    ''l'll see Your Billion and raise You a Quadmultidillion !!"
    Not Senile Yet!
    19th Nov 2014
    10:29am
    Free Trade Agreements are never published until they are signed and therefore irreversible!!!
    So any agreement is a secret.......Yes A Trade Secret!!!!!
    Free Trade only assists both sides if it does not create unemployment for both parties......sadly when the parties concerned do not have equal pay and economic dollar values....then it generally favours the larger economy...in this case China!!!
    Anyone who does not see that the population and scale of China can and will totally dominate any other economy is definitely Blind and without a Brain that functions clearly!!!!
    The Devil is in the details......and China has more people to scramble those details into goble de gook than we have to translate it........thus they will get their way........regardless!!!
    I do not believe that either Party of Government in Australia will do what is right for Australia.......but will pursue their own ideals at our (average citizen) expense.
    Free Trade Agreements only work for Large Corporations and Independent Capitalists who have the finance to rip off everyone!
    Governments allow and encourage them so they can get their cut in taxes.
    America's Agreements always include Import Protection Tariffs to protect their own Industries....always have!!!!
    We however, have politicians who sell our industries out by refusing to put those protections in place.
    Suggest you all downsize quickly...sell the car...get a bike!
    Sell the house...buy a campervan!!!!
    Because inside 20yrs....your dollar is going to devalue to hell!!!!
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    3:28pm
    Before the Ink Dries even !!
    Not Senile Yet!
    19th Nov 2014
    10:32am
    Better still......liquidate everything......learn Chinese.....and immigrate to China.!!!
    Maybe your dollar might last longer over there!!!!
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    10:42am
    Take a warm coat !! It get Chilli in China in the winter !!

    19th Nov 2014
    10:32am
    The problem with FTA's is that the benefits are completely uneven, and merely shift wealth to the already wealthy, who manipulate the allocation of huge amounts of funds to areas that benefit them alone, or their companies or corporations.

    Ask the Americans where the benefits are, of any FTA's that they have entered into. Their FTA between America and Mexico has only facilitated the transfer of jobs, industries and wealth to Mexico - whilst ordinary Americans have suffered accordingly as their local industries and jobs disappear. With the jobs and industries went ordinary Americans wealth and security.

    The move by China into an FTA with Australia is merely a rapacious move by China, and one designed to ensure easy and unfettered access to the raw materials and food that the Chinese so desperately need, to guarantee their future.

    The end result will be nothing less than the rapacious efforts of British wealth in company operations in Australia, during the late 19th century and early 20th century.

    The British companies moved into Australia in that period and mined huge amounts of our richest gold, harvested our finest timbers, and reaped a harvest of meat and wool from their huge rural companies - all of which made Britain even more exceptionally wealthy.

    Our finest jarrah timbers were used in every British port and dock, our gold wealth was recirculated into fine British buildings, and the British lived well on our meat and were clothed well in our wool.

    In the meantime, ordinary Australians got a pittance in return for the rape of our national assets. The exact same thing will now happen with the Chinese.

    The Chinese will mine our important finite resources and we will get virtually nothing in return - except cheap rubbishy Chinese-manufactured goods, that do little more than expand our already-huge landfill sites within a couple of years!
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    10:40am
    Any wonder the Jolly Swagman had to steal a Jolly Jumbuck ??
    Anonymous
    19th Nov 2014
    1:24pm
    Gee it didn't work very well Australia now the richest people in the world...
    geomac
    19th Nov 2014
    1:52pm
    Australia does not make the top ten in richest people in the world according to this list.

    http://www.pfhub.com/top-10-countries-with-the-richest-people-in-the-world/

    Maybe pete means we have the the richest one percenters.
    geomac
    19th Nov 2014
    1:57pm
    here is another
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_the_number_of_US_dollar_billionaires

    Maybe this is what pete is about.

    Australians remain the richest people in the world, by one measure at least.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/aussies-the-worlds-richest-people-credit-suisse-20131009-2v7qy.html#ixzz3JTmyQ4wY
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    3:19pm
    Yes !! Geomac !! 99% of us are having our Money held in Trust by 1% of the Population !!..
    Paddles
    19th Nov 2014
    10:15pm
    Debbie

    Introducing a topic with the complexity of this one is merely an open invitation to our flock to express their ignorance, xenophobia and irrational hatred of any initiative of the current Govt and I doubt, will result in any meaningful or insightful contribution.

    I am a person of considerable intelligence and commercial experience but I would not risk embarrassing myself by commenting on a scheme devised by people with access to the necessary data to formulate such an agreement.
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    11:44pm
    Yes But it keeps us off the Streets !!
    geomac
    20th Nov 2014
    12:01am
    Modesty it would seem is not a virtue you value Paddles. Are you suggesting that we should have no opinion or that current news items should not be discussed ? Now it is true we have little knowledge but thats because the govt is not making the details very public other than the usual spin that accompanies these deals. Remember the USA deal that was going to deliver so much ?
    wiki
    In the year following the agreement, Australian exports to the U.S. declined,[dubious – discuss] while U.S. exports to Australia increased. This followed the International Monetary Fund's prediction that the Australia-United States FTA would shrink the Australian economy marginally because of the loss of trade with other countries. The IMF estimated $US5.25 billion of extra U.S. imports entering into Australia per year under the FTA, but only $US2.97 billion of extra Australian exports to the U.S. per year.
    Anonymous
    20th Nov 2014
    10:19am
    Paddles: I had to put on my sunglasses to read your post. Such blinding praise for oneself!! But tell me, if ordinary citizens do not form opinions, if they don't keep in touch with what's happening in their own backyards, if they don't discuss with others, HOW are they going to be well informed enough to vote sensibly when election time comes around?
    Oldie87
    20th Nov 2014
    10:30am
    You are all correct. I stated at the beginning I did not have the knowledge to add to the debate. Some of the information conveyed was/is enlightening and informative. And yes debate should take place, but 90% of it published on this page is excruciating dwaddle.
    Wstaton
    20th Nov 2014
    10:36am
    geomac and Micha. Thanks for putting those people in place those who would like us to remain in ignorance by not querying things that may have a profound affect on our lives.
    Wstaton
    20th Nov 2014
    10:55am
    Apart from this I am getting sick and tired with Governments hiding agreements under the guise of "Commercial In Confidence" and other nefarious ways of keeping us uniformed what they are doing and our behalf. This is not only federal but state as well. Why? because they know damn well that a great many of them probably would not past muster. Unfortunately once the agreements are signed it is too late.

    A typical example is the recent East/Westlink in Melbourne everything commercial in confidence. Pushed through just before the election was called by the "Liberal" government (again). Was to cost $8.5B latest estimates are now $17B No-one wanted the freeway, it hadn't been justified to anyone. Over 60% of people wanted money spent on public transport.
    particolor
    20th Nov 2014
    6:36pm
    I wonder Who's got heaps of Shares in the Construction Companies ??
    particolor
    20th Nov 2014
    6:38pm
    The goings on in this Country are getting beyond My Comprehension ??
    Paddles
    20th Nov 2014
    9:10pm
    geomac

    It is true that I have found that hiding one's light under a bushel does not bring much in the way of rewards so I am comfortable with declaring my level of intellect and, by the way, it has been measured by accepted means on more than one occasion.

    Your contention that the quality of input to this forum is a result of the lack of information from official sources I rebut. I am more inclined to the notion that much of what we have to wade through here is the confused, irrational, illogical, ideologically drivel of people who are completely out of their depth both in regard to their information and their powers of reasoning.
    geomac
    20th Nov 2014
    11:01pm
    Paddles
    I made no comment on the quality of input in the forum. I made reference to the govt not giving details.
    " Now it is true we have little knowledge but thats because the govt is not making the details very public other than the usual spin that accompanies these deals. "
    Oldie87
    20th Nov 2014
    11:02pm
    Paddles I love it. We need more of you. Nail on the head et al.
    particolor
    21st Nov 2014
    9:37am
    I know Nussing !!
    Shultz...
    ice-cold
    20th Nov 2014
    6:25pm
    Ah well once again I must comment, I've just read a few comments on this subject, Lets all bend over, Put your head between your legs & kiss your arse goodbye...Coz we've been duped once more, or is sold out AGAIN more appropriate...who's pocket is being lined this time ? It's another case of FUJIA...Think about it !!
    particolor
    20th Nov 2014
    6:33pm
    Aint Mine ??
    particolor
    20th Nov 2014
    9:30pm
    Maybe Greenbottle has a good Explanation ??
    unicorn
    22nd Nov 2014
    11:10am
    Until the Chinese are stopped dead in their tacks of buying lND nd houses in Australia it is definitley BUG NISTAKE TELL ME Can you go to China & buy into LAND OR BUILDINGS OVER THERE? < Pardon capslock. pls >.
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    11:18am
    Pardoned !!... Lease it to them Like all SENSIBLE COUNTRIES !!
    Where Does this End ??.
    miss aisle
    22nd Nov 2014
    12:58pm
    There's a much bigger threat than the Chinese !
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    1:23pm
    I've Noticed !! But tell us about it !!..
    unicorn
    22nd Nov 2014
    11:25am
    Heard a good poem this a.m. on the radio it said in part that they couldn't bet us by weapons (meaning in the wars) so they have decided take our country anyway. Talking of these agreements & what a fool our PM is.
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    11:35am
    The Japanese said that at the End of WW2 !! If we cant take it by force Well Buy It !!
    That was sadly Disappointing to them when We had Governments with a few Brains !!
    But now we are Swamped by Pea Brains !!.. ER ! WOT ?
    miss aisle
    22nd Nov 2014
    12:56pm
    unicorn - Same may be said about the muslims - extorting $millions every year,
    from our groceries, etc., - they collect from many different brands milk, bread, biscuits, vegemite, chickens, chocolate, ......... Even from pork!, & many, many more items bought in our Aussie shops every day.
    We pay extra because of this extortion & it's put into a muslim bank a/c. to do with, as they please. Then demanding sharia law.???
    So, we can take our pick ??
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    1:19pm
    Missile ..I would have liked to have said that Only I would have been far More Vulgar in the Telling of it ..Thanks !! ..
    Now back to My Halal PORK and PICKLE Sandwich !! YUMMO !!
    geomac
    22nd Nov 2014
    4:10pm
    miss aisle
    Extorting ? A business gets certification to increase sales both here and for export. Same as they donate to the heart foundation to get a health tick sign on the label. You know about it because its there on the label. You however do not know anything about the proposed trade deal because we have not been informed other than vague all good no bad spin. Food companies tell us if nuts are in food preparation and halal means that Jews and Moslem people can eat the product knowing it has products in it that they do not wish to eat.
    Your taxes go to pay 249 million for religious school chaplains but a school cannot get funding for a qualified counsellor ? Taxpayer money goes to private schools to do with as they want yet millions of parents cannot afford the fees those private schools charge. I take it you are outraged at that situation miss aisle ?
    Certification means a contract to supply Emirates Air with food products or a SA beef mob to sell to Indonesia or Malaya. What would certification add to a jar of vegemite ? One twentieth of a cent maybe. Meanwhile Chinese firms ( govt sponsored ) can buy up to a billion dollars no questions asked. 200,000 457 workers yet we have 6.1 rate of unemployment. I suggest there may be better things to concern yourself with regarding Australia and its future prospects.
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    4:27pm
    Well said !! Do we have... Able to be eaten by Christians... all over their Food and other Products ??
    geomac
    22nd Nov 2014
    5:28pm
    particolor
    I do not follow any religious creed though raised as a catholic. No meat on Friday and latin mass I remember. More strength to believers if it gives them comfort or guidance. Vegemite is vegemite , certified or not because the process to make it aligns with certification requirements. Now I reckon there are some sects but the majority of the various christian faiths are allowed to eat anything they like cept fellow humans. Wonder if the bible covers that situation , never considered it before ? So what would be the point of saying that on a label ? Food I mean not humans eating humans.
    Keep up the quips parti. Despite some bagging you I enjoy your take on topics.
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    5:50pm
    Well I put it this way, We never had a problem with our food and we are still here, and we Were here when they came here, and we are not Sickly and Pallid ! And if they don't like our food Build their own factories and eat their own products I promise not to put My Infidel Mouth near the Stuff !! Its Bloody Extortion and Nothing Less ! And I don't care if it IS only Half a cent as someone said !! They wont Build their own factories as they are too Bone Idle to work in them ,Its easier to Demand money than work! Besides it will interfere with the Street racing and Doughnut rubber pollution ! They cant do that in Hot Desert Sand !!So why are they allowed to do it here ?
    miss aisle
    22nd Nov 2014
    5:54pm
    partcolor - just telling it how it basically is...
    miss aisle
    22nd Nov 2014
    5:56pm
    I must have hit the jugular vein - missile !
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    6:06pm
    I Feel Better Now !!
    ( Stolen from Medicare )
    miss aisle
    22nd Nov 2014
    6:21pm
    geomac. - Because we are not a muslim country, I strongly object to buying, bread, milk, etc. etc. with the halal sign on it.
    Muslims are receiving big $'s from companies/producers p.a.
    raising the prices for us.
    Who knows what these $millions ar ear-marked for?
    Because of public outcry, many companies are not stamping the halal sign
    on their products. This should be compulsary if companies & producers are
    paying these yearly fees. ($40,000 p.a. just from one chicken farmer).
    website : - Boycott halal in Australia
    miss aisle
    22nd Nov 2014
    6:30pm
    particolor 5:50pm
    Agree with every word you say!
    Adrianus
    22nd Nov 2014
    6:52pm
    parti I agree with you 100%. The only people who eat vegemite are Aussies and Kiwis. It's an ANZAC tradition just like ANZAC cookies. Why do we have a foreign religion taxing it on top of our government taxes?
    geomac, who do you think eats the 22 million jars and tubes of vegemite?? And another thing! I would prefer 200,000 of 457 WORKERS than 200,000 dole bludgers!!
    Adrianus
    22nd Nov 2014
    7:08pm
    I have the app on my iPhone. I just scan the item barcode and I get heaps of information. Such as, the name of the company, the family tree and the address of their HQ. For example ; how many of us know that Kraft Foods is now owned by British American Tobacco P.L.C. ???
    geomac
    22nd Nov 2014
    7:12pm
    ,iss aisle
    I think you are repeating what you have read not what you have researched or know. Can you cite a source that can be verified for your claims of big dollars ? Do you not trust our tax office or security agencies when they say they have no concerns relating to halal certification ?
    Can you identify one company that should stamp a food as halal if it has not bothered with certification even if it could be. That is ludicrous. Do you realise how silly that sounds. Getting certification just means certain foods are not used in production and there are thousand upon thousands that would qualify and not bother to because it would not increase their market share.

    Smith is not able to point to any company that has raised the price of its goods as a result of signing on to Halal, and is at a loss to explain why non-Halal competitors aren’t coming along and undercutting their opponents’ apparently inflated prices.

    Given Fleurieu paid just over $1,000 for their certification, is there really any reason to think this expenditure could be forcing companies like Cadbury to secretly up their prices?

    “Well that sounds like a bargain,” Smith says, in relation to Fleurieu’s fee.

    “That’s not consistent with other reports that we’ve heard. But either way, the cost, that’s one factor and one thing that upsets consumers. I’m trying to represents all the concerns of customers. Others don’t want anything that has to do with any religious practice on their area where they do grocery purchases, you know, there’s a lot of issues here.”

    Cost is, indeed, just one factor. Problem is, none of the others seem to stick too well either.

    Smith is concerned profits from Halal could be used to fund terrorism and she points to overseas examples as evidence of the risk.

    Yet when approached by New Matilda, the Australian Crime Commission had this to say in regards to its recent Eligo National Taskforce, which found some financial links in Australia to groups including Hezbollah:

    “The task force has identified direct links between serious and organised, money laundering and terrorism funding. However, the Australian Crime Commission is not aware of any direct links between the legitimate Halal certification industry and money laundering or the financing of terrorist groups.”

    Terrorism links have not emerged in Australia, and the proliferation of Halal certification organisations, seen as suspicious by Smith, seems to have some fairly mundane causes.

    The Federal Department of Agriculture, for example, needs to use a range of Halal certifiers when exporting beef to countries like Indonesia, Malaysia and Saudi Arabia, where the import standards are not uniform.

    https://www.facebook.com/australianwelfarenews?hc_location=timeline

    Thats what you get when you google

    Try this Gippsland meat producer
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-20/4899142
    I visited the site against halal and had a chat with some people. One said a producer was forced/charged to pay a sum of money for certification and when I checked it out it was quoted and the firm did not pay. Quoted becomes charged and the figures become tenfold what are actually charged. Last time I checked I had no further replies/rebuttals.
    By all means have your opinion or views but do not parade bias or chatter as facts. As I understand it we are supposed to be a sectarian country with religious tolerance. Yet our govt funds chaplains of questionable qualifications and religious schools at the expense of public schools. I went to a catholic school/schools and have no gripe with them but my parents paid for the entry and it was their choice not the taxpayer. I sent my kids to primary catholic school but it was our choice not my fellow taxpayers to fund that schooling.
    The Exclusive Brethren gets school funding and that to me is bizarre. Things like ped priests or ministers get me fired up regarding things that should be addressed. Your concerns are of little import in comparison. Actually according to the authorities your concerns are of no import at all.
    geomac
    22nd Nov 2014
    7:20pm
    Frank
    Vegemite was developed in the 1920s so was not around for ANZACs to eat. I dont eat ANZAC biscuits ( cookies ? ) because I do not like them . too hard. I prefer timtams or shortbread creams. Why use the term cookies and what does it matter who owns Kraft as long as the food is safe ? I worked at Kraft in the seventies and hygene etc was top notch and expect it has retained that standard.
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    8:06pm
    Geomac ..I'm not on about the Cost factor, I'm on about the Dishonest Principal of it !!.. How Weak are the CEOs and Managers of the Companys and Factories to pay them anything at all ? They should be Charging them if they want their Funny Thing on the Products !!. If a Bloke in a Nightie walked into My factory Demanding 40 Grand to Bless My Products Id tell him to Beat it before I call the Cops !!
    geomac
    22nd Nov 2014
    8:17pm
    particolor
    They do it to increase sales. Its the same thinking that has food manufacturers against better nutrition information on food labels ie traffic lights. They would not depart with one dollar if they did not think it would increase sales.
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    8:42pm
    They Win some, They Lose some !! So leave it alone !! I know people that wont eat a certain Brand od Chook now !! And the funny part is they change Me ! I found a better one and Cheaper ..He He !!
    miss aisle
    22nd Nov 2014
    8:53pm
    geomac - why then is money extorted from piggeries - they don't eat it.
    Because they want money from every source possible.
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    8:59pm
    OINK !!
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    9:01pm
    And guess what ? We are still on Subject ! Trade Agreements !
    geomac
    22nd Nov 2014
    9:48pm
    Can you name this piggery miss aisle as google has not been much help ? What is the name of the piggery that has paid for a certification that is useless if it applies to pork ? It seems like an oxymoron. Like having alcohol content on a non alcoholic drink. You ask a question but give no details of the piggery in question. You can understand my confusion as it makes no sense. Seeing as you have mentioned it a few times I am sure you know the name of the firm or firms.
    geomac
    22nd Nov 2014
    9:49pm
    Taiwan has some concerns it seems with trade deals or at least its citizens do.

    http://www.theage.com.au/world/sunflower-power-stalls-taiwan-trade-deal-20141122-11rl8d.html
    Abby
    23rd Nov 2014
    7:58am
    Geo
    If a company has to pay an additional $40th for certification surely you cannot believe that the costs of the same is not passed onto the consumer other Australians.

    The Halal symbol should not be forced onto companies through extortion rather it is the Muslims should have to pay for it - why should the Taxpayer have to supplement that.
    Adrianus
    23rd Nov 2014
    8:39am
    geo, It is extortion. These people make the unions look like a charity organisation.
    I use the term cookie because that's what they are called in Byron Bay.

    While you were working at Kraft did you see a man in a night shirt blessing the cheese? Or a team of scientists researching the ingredients of vegemite?
    If the halal certifiers knew what was in vegemite then it would be no longer a trade secret.
    Do you see anything wrong with a 'religion' that not only doesn't get taxed but imposes taxes?
    These taxes are estimated to total around $1.5 trillion and climbing.
    This 'tax system' may have already reached a critical point in it's growth whereby the honest hardworking self employed have no choice but to pay up or be ostracized by those paying the tax.
    particolor
    23rd Nov 2014
    9:27am
    beware when the Sheriff of Halalemite and His thugs ride into the Village !!
    particolor
    23rd Nov 2014
    9:47am
    What sort of a Sham De Doo Dah is that ? I was watching a UK video on Y/T where the Robed Ones had taken over the Turkey Factory for Halal Extortion ! The poor Birds were hung upside down on hooks then an Idiot turned them to face Mecca and another Clown with the Imam Whatsydoodle came along and cut the poor Birds Throats ???..I'm Quiet Sick now ! And wont be Having Turkey again EVER !!
    What sort of Malarkey is that ??
    Adrianus
    23rd Nov 2014
    10:15am
    parti, while the animal rights activists are concentrating their energy on the piggeries the other animals are subjected to a cruel end. No stunning, just a throat cut and bleed out! I cannot help but think what benefit there is in eating an animal killed this way? The animal will have a lot of adrenalin pumping through it's blood and into the flesh. How does that change the lamb chop? Or the sirloin?
    particolor
    23rd Nov 2014
    10:53am
    It wouldn't and doesn't !! But its a Great Sauce of Free Money !!.. We are still on Subject.. Foreign Investment !!..
    Adrianus
    23rd Nov 2014
    12:43pm
    Yes, someone mentioned foreign investment earlier.
    I say for those who are concerned about our FTA with China, just take a look over the Tasman at our Kiwi mates?
    While we were stuck in a rut with your labor pals screwing our country upside down parti, the Kiwis were busy getting their economy back on track.

    New Zealand's FTA is only part of a very successful return to a strong economy, but a key component none the less.
    NZ are now urging Kiwis to return home and fill job vacancies and so far 15,000 kiwis have done just that.
    particolor
    23rd Nov 2014
    12:57pm
    My Labor Party ? Get a Life !! I wouldn't vote for any of the Clowns !! When is the Country going to get some Politicians that know what day it is !!..All they know now is where the Honey is Stored ?? ..
    Adrianus
    23rd Nov 2014
    1:13pm
    Ha Ha Ha....I would disown them too if I were you! The older we get the worse our politicians become. Why is that?
    particolor
    23rd Nov 2014
    1:18pm
    I just looked up the NZ Trade Agreement ! It was Ok as long as China Ran The Show from what I could make of the Billions of Pages ?? ..
    Adrianus
    23rd Nov 2014
    1:29pm
    parti, do you realise positive people live longer and that's because they are healthier?
    grumpy!
    particolor
    23rd Nov 2014
    1:40pm
    I've NEVER Clogged up the Doctors Waiting Room In all My Long Life ! And I've done My 3 Score Years and Ten !! I've got My Battery Clip on the Red terminal +.
    But I don't vote that Way !!
    Adrianus
    23rd Nov 2014
    3:04pm
    ok, just as long as you're aware B+ is not just a blood group.
    miss aisle
    23rd Nov 2014
    4:33pm
    geomac. - Google "ABC News It is National Mosque Open Day Around Australia.

    (&written underneath) "Why not take the opportunity & visit a mosque or even
    speak to a muslim to find out.......... I then asked them why are piggeries now
    being halal certified, when............
    geomac
    23rd Nov 2014
    2:35pm
    Frank
    When I worked at Kraft I was kept too busy too see much of anything. It was process work but with variation and I should have stayed but left because of shift I was on , afternoon shift. This bless stuff is news to me as halal is about the method and ingredients used in food. Next you will be saying they have communion wafers like the micks.
    One job I had at Port Melbourne which was not enjoyable and I quit after two weeks was at a chicken factory as a forky. The chickens were strung upside down on a conveyor line and went into a enclosed section where the throats were cut and then somehow the feathers were removed. This was in the mid seventies and doubt the process has changed much because it was so efficient at getting product through. Excuse the pun but compared to Kraft it was like chalk and cheese. The chicken joint was every man for himself and at Kraft it was working as a team. The point is its preparation and ingredients that matter in gaining certification. Animals are slaughtered according to Australian laws and regulations.
    geomac
    23rd Nov 2014
    2:44pm
    The coalition lauded the USA free trade deal and we are about 6 billion the yanks way ever since every year. Lab or Lib both tend to want these deals but the libs seem to give more away without gaining enough to warrant the deal. SIDs are something Labor was avoiding because it means a multinational can sue a govt if it passes a law that protects farms from contamination say while a company might say it diminishes its business model. Things like fracking and genetical modified genes or even enforcing laws about river pollution can cause litigation.
    particolor
    23rd Nov 2014
    2:45pm
    Well they used to be until the Boogy Men took over !!
    geomac
    23rd Nov 2014
    9:47pm
    miss aisle
    After going through the five top hits I finally found what you were referring to and it provided as much info as you have , zero. A comment on a Facebook page means nothing but the replies did. Did you read them ?
    Gary Reed i visited a mosque today, just to see if the would answer some of my concerns. I asked about Halal, what it meant, they answered me politely. I then asked them why are piggeries now being halal certified, when everyone knows, pork is a big NO NO. He said something in arabic, and called me a racist. A couple of their men then escorted me out calling me racist again. I just thought the open mosque was to show us how honest they are. whoops, my mistake.
    10 · October 25 at 12:24am · Edited

    Linda Harvey what a surprise - not
    2 · October 25 at 12:31am

    Geraldine Trevarthen If you can't see how a comment like that could be construed as offensive then you aren't too bright.
    Name one halal certified piggery.
    October 25 at 4:22am

    Quillan Brodie Liar.
    1 · October 25 at 2:11pm

    Vicky Giles Here you go Geraldine Trevarthen.... Our Products | Coral Park
    Coral Park
    coralpark.com.au
    October 25 at 3:46pm

    Vicky Giles look them up
    October 25 at 3:46pm

    Geraldine Trevarthen They supply other meats as well as pork. It doesn't say the pork is halal at all.

    At Coral Park Pastoral we supply a full range of cartons meats. We specialise in Veal, beef, pork lamb and poultry. Our ever expanding range includes, Wagyu Beef, Black Angus, MSA accredited beef along with a range of turkey and pork products. We also supply a full range of Halal products. We are the NSW distributors for Murray Valley Pork. The team at Coral Park Pastoral have experience from all sectors of the Australian meat industry. This experience ranges from processing to foodservice through to retail meat specialists. Talk to one of our friendly team members or come and visit us at the Sydney Meat Centre at Strathfield South.
    October 27 at 10:18am

    Gary Reed I have received an email, all meat products are halal certified, as it is all killed in same abbatoir
    October 27 at 10:21pm

    Gary Reed Why do you think the imam threw me out, i had proof, he refused to answer , Was nothing racist about my question, but I was accused of it .
    October 27 at 10:22pm

    Geraldine Trevarthen No Muslim will pray over pork so it is not halal. Just because it is killed in a halal certified abattoir does not make it halal. Obviously either you or the person who sent you the email was confused.
    October 28 at 2:07am

    Sophie Hellemons For anyone thinking of going, you should always be welcome to the mosque anytime!! Peace
    10 · October
    geomac
    23rd Nov 2014
    10:00pm
    Now I get it. Garry got an email so it must be true. The mob that process the meats gives the answer and there you have it. To have believed that story regarding pork would be like saying a hospital cleaner is a doctor because they both work in the same place.
    Miss aisle surely you doubted that info as it just does not gel to any rational person that a food that is against any faith teachings would at the same time have certification.
    This is why I bother to reply to things like this. Not because I support any faith though I don,t bag followers who do either. Not too keen on those sorts who bag people of faith because its none of their business what creed people choose to follow. I just do not like false statements being put out as fact to advance a bias or prejudice. Surely if you have a reasonable gripe you do not need made up stuff to advance your argument ?
    Adrianus
    23rd Nov 2014
    10:28pm
    geo, BE Campbell is a piggery which has Halal Certification I saw a copy of their certificate signed by Dr Mohammad Anas. Don't take my word for it you can phone Peter Do on 02 8887 3004.
    geomac
    24th Nov 2014
    12:07am
    Frank
    Thanks for that info. I checked out their web site and they do indeed have halal certification as well as numerous certificates for export, hygene etc etc. They sell beef and chicken as well as pork so certification is no mystery.

    Welcome to B.E. Campbell
    B.E. Campbell wins “Best Meat Supplier” at Woolworths 2012 Annual Supplier
    of the Year Awards.

    One of Australia’s largest family owned meat wholesalers with a proud history of providing
    Australian consumers, butchers, supermarkets and the food service industry at large with
    the highest quality meat products including pork, beef and chicken. Established in 1969 by
    Bruce and Marie Campbell with a commitment to quality and service continues today under
    the stewardship of Managing Director, Ted Campbell and family.

    http://www.becampbell.com.au/index.html
    Adrianus
    24th Nov 2014
    11:42am
    None the less, it is a piggery with Halal Certification. Thanks for keeping us up to date with what is written on newmatilda.com, but many of us would like to know what you think.
    geomac
    24th Nov 2014
    12:12pm
    Frank
    Not sure about New Matilda as I pasted the comments from ABC Facebook page and did not visit New Matilda. I would agree and disagree with your none the less ie it is a meat wholesaler with a piggery and has a halal certification for its nopn pork meats. Hows that for meeting half way ?
    miss aisle
    24th Nov 2014
    12:38pm
    If you google Halal Choices - Halal products..
    There are different lists there of aussie products

    Halal products/ Non halal products
    halal products certifiied but may not be stamped, etc.

    Below are just a few examples of items that are halal certified butsurely do not need the certification.
    It 's simply a proven way to extort money from manufacturers/organizations.

    black & gold - easter buns Vegge Chips
    Coffex - coffee Kettle - chips
    Nescafe - coffee Zymil - milk & many other brands
    Smooze - fruit ice SPC - fruit
    Cape Grim water C. Saxa salt
    Tassa - salmon Eclipse - mints
    Splenda - artif. sweetener Cornwells - malt vinegar
    Dilmah Kellogs - JustRight/SpecialK/
    Blackmores (vitamins) -Frosties/Crispix
    grape seed forte
    cold combat
    cholesteral health
    flaxseed oil
    vitamin C
    I believe that if money can go into muslim coffers, they will halal everything
    possible.
    geomac
    24th Nov 2014
    12:50pm
    miss aisle
    A food does not have to be meat to be certified. I am not sure exactly what products are to be avoided in processing but things like alcohol for cleaning or inclusion of certain foods would void certification. Its a bit like saying no presence of peanut substance in a food item but naturally not as harmful for a person who has adverse affects. Personally I think all religious baggage is pointless and fail to see how it relates to living a good life. You don,t need religion to lead a good life and treat each other decently.
    miss aisle
    24th Nov 2014
    1:22pm
    geomac - firstly, so sorry about your time visiting the mosque -
    but, they are really not going to part with any info showing them up as extorting
    money unnecessarily.

    Visited that site again - halal choices- products.

    - Headline - "Easter eggs & cat food - where money meets religion."
    Why do cat food companies need to pay for certification ?
    Why are Cadbury's Easter product range need to be certified ?

    I wonder where we'll be with all this unnecessary certification in several years
    time?

    Frank - Thank You!
    particolor
    24th Nov 2014
    1:28pm
    Its even on Women's Personal Products ! WTF ??
    miss aisle
    24th Nov 2014
    1:52pm
    suppose it will purify the bi-products, parti...??
    geomac
    24th Nov 2014
    1:54pm
    miss aisle
    There seems to be some confusion. I have never visited a mosque or a synagogue for that matter. Maybe yoy are referring to that Gary Reed mentioned in the FB ABC page. " geomac - firstly, so sorry about your time visiting the mosque - "
    If you recall thats where you directed me to get info on your piggery.
    A legal contract is not extorting. A business makes a commercial decision or a PR decision but always with its future sales in mind. Is certification a business tax deduction same as I imagine advertising is , part of the expense of doing business ?
    extort |ik?stôrt|
    verb
    obtain (something) by force, threats, or other unfair means: he was convicted of trying to extort $1 million from a developer.
    particolor
    24th Nov 2014
    2:06pm
    So if it is a Business TAX REDUCTION I suppose that means the Public is still paying in a Round About Way ?? YEP !!
    miss aisle
    24th Nov 2014
    2:52pm
    geomac - Like the dictionary says - ".......or other unfair means "
    Why are so many Aussies up in arms at what is happening with our products ?
    Because - "unfair means".
    Where will it end?
    Many are angry that this procedure is allowed to happen - on principal.
    Many are playing hard to have this stopped.
    Sorry about the misunderstanding.
    geomac
    24th Nov 2014
    3:40pm
    miss aisle
    Extort means illegal as far as I am aware. A business can decide if it wants certification or it does not. Now if you mean unfair pressure to influence a decision I would think a site devoted to a boycott on a product because it is halal certified would fit that meaning.
    So miss aisle which is it ? You see you cannot have it both ways especially when the only pressure a certification group can bring to bear is refusal to grant said certificate. On the other hand the anti halal group with their Facebook are using boycott tactics as a threat. Which do you think would more likely be said to extort ?
    In saying what I said I reckon if people wish to boycott a product thats up to them as long as they are well informed and their intentions are what they say they are. I think the govt is going to bring in laws against boycotts which to me smacks of big brother.
    No worries about the misunderstanding miss aisles. Typos and the format of the forum plus my style do not always make for easy reading or following text.
    particolor
    24th Nov 2014
    7:38pm
    Where do they get the AUDACITY to even Ask for a handout ?? My parents told Me eat What I was Given ?? And be thankful !!.. Not go down the Factory and tell them I cant eat their Product because of some Tripe !!
    miss aisle
    25th Nov 2014
    7:59am
    Unfortunately, there are moral issues as well as legal ones, geomac.

    Frank went to great lengths to provide info for you, - even a phone no.
    Then, when presented with facts you appear to be indifferent.

    For muslims, only meat, blood & alcohol require halal.
    (And they know before arriving here about our standards with food.)

    While you dwell in your naive/blase attitude, there are many fighting hard
    to have rules changed, to stand up for what we believe in, to point out the injustice of moral dilemmas, before it gets out of control.
    Too much tolerance, too much looking the other way, too much giving, will all
    have a detrimental affect on our future.
    There's obviously a problem here that requires fixing.
    geomac
    25th Nov 2014
    3:46pm
    miss aisle
    I thanked Frank for his info and went to the meat wholesaler site and posted that along with pork it also has beef and chicken from the site. I would not call that indifferent.
    " For muslims, only meat, blood & alcohol require halal. "
    Now that statement neglects the use of alcohol for instance in cleaning or pork for fat as an example. It does not mean the product has pork or alcohol in it but was used in the production or cleaning process. Apparently kosher and halal rules also rule out shellfish and some sort of cloven hoofed animals or is it the other way round. Anyway certain seafoods and some animals.
    The main problem as I see it miss aisle is wanting everyone to be like you or similar minded people. It is never going to happen and Australians in the 1920s or 1950s were diverse in what they liked or did and are so now. My brother wouldn,t eat hot chicken and I wouldn,t eat sweets/cake with raisins in them. some people drink in moderation while others don,t drink at all and some are binge drinkers. Some are bible bashers and some just live a good life without needing the bible read every day. Some like me don,t follow a creed in name or practice but live what some would describe as a christian way of living , treating others as we would hope to be treated.
    In responding to your posts and others how can say I am blase or naive when I look up the info and actually take the time to find out whats accurate and what is rumour ? There is not too much tolerance but quite the opposite. 10 years for a journo doing their job revealing govt cover ups ? MPs claiming taxpayer money for weddings ? QLD bikie laws that make one citizen receive longer jail terms than another citizen for the same crime. Thats an insult to the concept of a democratic ideal and equality. Reith gets to pay back 50 grand and Slipper gets charged for 900 bucks ? Even Abbott paid back ten grand. Yes miss aisle something stinks alright.
    particolor
    25th Nov 2014
    5:32pm
    Yes !! If I didn't like something I didn't use nor eat it !! But I never cared Who Else might Enjoy it. Good Luck to them !!..
    I wonder if they have hit the Catholic Church yet ? To Halal their Wafers !!
    Anonymous
    25th Nov 2014
    6:52pm
    Great post Geomac. Think you have a handle on the situation.
    miss aisle
    25th Nov 2014
    10:58pm
    I find it hard to understand why it was important for you to find out - ?
    as the results did not make much of an impression on you.

    Frank looked into websites, found that there is indeed, a piggery with halal
    certification (with a phone no. to confirm it!).
    You reply "I would agree & disagree with you none-the-less..."
    It's like you enjoy playing games. ??
    "..wanting everyone to be like you or similar minded people." I don't think so.
    You obviously don't care about the halal certification, (& that's OK) but why carry on as though you do?
    It's your attitude that's confusing, not that you don't think as I do!
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    11:03am
    They even Halaled the Toilet Rolls ?? How many of them can You eat in one Sitting ??
    miss aisle
    26th Nov 2014
    11:19am
    They'll extort money from whatever they can.
    Surely, there must be a politician worth his salt, to think this is important enough
    to at least, attempt to alter this rule.?
    miss aisle
    26th Nov 2014
    11:21am
    particolor - would you like chips with your rolls ? halal, of course!
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    11:31am
    Not if the Chips are Inedible ! And haven't had a Good Seeing Too by the Imam of Nottingham ! ..
    All our Pollies are very fond of their Head ! So You wont Hear nothing from them !!
    geomac
    25th Nov 2014
    12:40am
    So why did he do it? The obvious answer is the free trade agreement, but can Australia's geopolitical alignment really be brought so cheaply? For all the hoopla, the agreement is unlikely to do more for Australia's economy overall than the equally-hyped US free trade agreement has done - and that is, according to the government's Productivity Commission, exactly nothing. The government estimates the effect of a free trade agreement with Chinais a possible GDP increase of 0.039 per cent a year, which is so near to nothing that it doesn't matter.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/abbott-clueless-on-how-to-handle-us-and-china-20141124-11sko3.html#ixzz3JzdQ04xD
    Adrianus
    25th Nov 2014
    8:39am
    Hugh White is like you geomac, looking hard to find a negative spin on the China FTA. Only the young wide eyed Uni Students were impressed with the content of Obama's speech. Those with the benefit of experience and free thinking have heard it all before. Kevin Rudd made a lot of those speeches. Uplifting and emotionally charged but without commitment and further action by the speaker. Obama has left the building, what now?
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    11:36am
    We want the Half a Billion Back !! Its Half the Next Payment on the Nation Debt !!
    geomac
    26th Nov 2014
    1:34pm
    miss aisle
    " Frank looked into websites, found that there is indeed, a piggery with halal
    certification (with a phone no. to confirm it!).
    You reply "I would agree & disagree with you none-the-less..."
    It's like you enjoy playing games. ?? "
    I responded to the info Frank gave me and checked it out. Surely thats what Frank expected me to do and why he provided the info. I agreed it was pork wholesaler and supplied info it also dealt in chicken and beef which is where halal comes in. Thats not playing games but giving Frank a respectful reply and the logic behind a meat wholesaler having certification. To ignore his info and reject his piggery comment would have been playing games. If it was a piggery and had no beef and chicken sales I would have agreed entirely with Frank. Why do you seem to have trouble with me providing and wanting facts out in the open ? You can have your views but you cannot and need not promote incorrect assumptions or fabrications as facts. That is my interest.
    Even now you fail to include the beef and chicken side of the wholesaler in the above quote. Its as if I never disclosed the info from the site or its web address. I am not playing games but you have pretended I did not reveal the beef side of the wholesaler which is the basis for it to have certification. You may not like the facts but you can hardly ignore them and still make a fuss about falsehoods can you ?
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    2:23pm
    They Supposedly came to this Country after Fitting through Many Safe Muslim Country's for Asylum, to Escape Repression in their own Country ? Crap !!
    They Bought It With Them !!
    The First thing they did was say Our Food Stinks and needed Blessing for a Price ?
    Now that We have the Loot from that, You Infidels can learn how to Pray Proper Like, and get some Corns on Your Knees !!, Grow a Big Sweaty Beard and Hide Your Women in a Tent !!..Now You look Civilized !! 7th Century Civilized !!
    miss aisle
    26th Nov 2014
    2:40pm
    All I can say, - You acted like a kid asking for a lolly,
    then, when you receive a lolly, you say,
    Don't want it now, - just wanted to see if you'd give it me !!
    Obviously, you don't care about halal certification - & that's OK,
    but stop playing silly games.
    miss aisle
    26th Nov 2014
    2:44pm
    Yes, particolor, They don't want to stay in their own country - no benefits -
    Don't want to stay in the nearest muslim country to them - no benefits -
    But western countries will do just fine -
    we'll have lots wives, lots of children, lots of benefits, & their goal -
    sharia law !
    geomac
    26th Nov 2014
    2:59pm
    particolor
    Who are the they you refer to ? The Afhgan cameleers ? who helped the overland line or the 70s immigrants from Turkey. I have yet to read an article or see a news clip where our food has been said to stink but maybe you are using grammatic licence or whatever its called. I don,t know about this blessing thing as its what I associate with catholics , holy water or communion wafers. Certification is to say a product does not contain certain foods or material and has been prepared a certain way depending on the food/product. MLA I think it is collects money from farmers to look after their beef interests yet it failed to do so when Indonesian firms were filmed using methods unacceptable and causing a stir. Now the farmers were mandated by govt to pay that levy ie no choice. Howard from memory introduced it and I remember Katter giving MLA a bollocking when the proverbial hit the fan for taking money and doing nothing to earn it.
    What is the percentage of islamic people in Australia ? From memory , not reliable , its about 2% or 500,00 and of that population like any other creed you have slack and strong followers. On top of that like christians you have various branches and creeds such as catholics and protestants , sunni and shia.
    parti nobody is going to get me to a church , synagogue or mosque unless its to attend a wedding or funeral I want to attend. Even then it would be celebrate a union or mourn a life departed not to practice a creed. Its one man one vote in Australia and a divided 2% of the vote spread over the land is never going to achieve much at state or federal level. It takes a Gina , Rupert or Palmer to exert influence beyond the one vote ideal to distort things via the IPA or splashing advertising dollars at elections.
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    3:02pm
    Not to cause any Fear I hope !
    But that lot of Ungrateful Louts Haven't even started on us yet !! ..We will end up like the UK, Israel and US !! Eyes in their Backsides ! .
    I just read a Book about them ! and The Good News ! World Domination is the Aim !!.
    How wonderful that would be getting Rocks Rained down on You from a herd Troglodytes in Nighties because You looked Sideways at the Caliph !!
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    3:13pm
    Geo ..Those People Who came here in the Early days were Peaceful Folks !! Not like this lot of War Mongers now !!.
    I like Your last Paragraph !!
    miss aisle
    26th Nov 2014
    3:38pm
    geomac - Still playing silly games - you know full well we were not referring to
    the Afghan camelleers.
    Always sidestepping the issue at hand.

    I've read that too, particolor - World Domination is clearly in their sights.
    geomac
    26th Nov 2014
    3:39pm
    miss aisle I have acted as one is expected to act in a forum with regard to posters and rules of respect. I have looked at points raised by posters and responded with out accusing them of playing silly buggers. You may not like or appreciate that I have dispelled some myths but surely you appreciate that I did not resort to name calling in doing so. I play the ball not the man ie address the topic not the poster. At least thats my aim and hope I have done so.
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    3:50pm
    Yes !! I can hardly wait until each of their Dozen Children has a Dozen Children !! With Benefits !!
    Adrianus
    26th Nov 2014
    3:51pm
    geomac,

    " Howard from memory introduced it "
    it being halal certification was introduced during the Hawke government!!
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    3:58pm
    O Boy !!! Something else to Blame Labor for !! I don't care Who's got a Certification for What ! But Charging for IT ???
    geomac
    26th Nov 2014
    4:04pm
    Frank
    I was referring to the the levy placed on beef farmers that went to the MLA in respect to live meat stock exports. My purpose was to compare a compulsory charge imposed by the govt to the option of having halal. I do not know when halal certification came into being or became common practice but no govt input would be needed. Food safety yes , certification no. at least thats my understanding. After all its just a way of saying it is kosher or halal acceptable to use.
    Adrianus
    26th Nov 2014
    4:07pm
    geomac the problem miss aisle and others would have with your response is that you are trying to turn a piggery into a sheep station!!
    They slaughter 8,500 head of pigs per month!!! how many sheep or cattle do they slaughter??
    You were given the information in good faith but you were not happy with it and attempted to transform that information into something it is not!
    I put it to you that you tried to make a purse from a sow's ear!!!
    geomac
    26th Nov 2014
    4:10pm
    Maybe the certification is as useful as egg packs saying free range. I care about what I eat in two ways , it tastes ok and doesn,t make me sick. I remember the cold cuts trouble with devon etc some years ago.
    Adrianus
    26th Nov 2014
    4:10pm
    geomac, if you check Hansard you will see that the matter was raised in parliament during the Hawke reign.
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    4:25pm
    I don't care if they are trying to make Used Chewing Gum into Sho Glue !! What has it got to do with Some Foreign Religion or Any Religion for that Matter ??
    geomac
    26th Nov 2014
    4:33pm
    Thats an unfair and inaccurate comment Frank. I provided the info direct from the wholesaler web site. I did not alter anything or provide figures. By using the information on the wholesaler site the use of certification was obvious ie beef. I repeat that I agree with you that the firm sells pork and I repeat that it also sells beef which is why the firm has certification. Now that is straightforward and requires no word games. If you recall my query was why would a piggery require certification as it made no sense. Well the firm in question processes beef as well so is not a piggery alone.
    Which is the accurate assertion Frank ? A piggery that has halal certification or a meat wholesaler that deals in beef , chicken and pork has halal certification. I think its a bit of a stretch to accuse me of trying to play word games or being loose with the truth.
    I think miss aisle has a problem with the idea that I have shown the piggery halal myth as just that and nothing else. Why I am not sure as it does not stop any debate or points of view but it does remove a falsehood from clouding discussion.
    geomac
    26th Nov 2014
    4:38pm
    Frank
    What has hansard got to do with it ? Any thing can be discussed in parliament from dung beetles to space travel. I don,t doubt your accuracy and no way am I going to wade through hansard for something that as far as I am aware has nothing to do with any govt action or ruling. Hansard would be almost as bad as trying to get info from the Telstra web site.
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    4:44pm
    I can remember when all the Food in this Country made us all Violently ILL !! I don't know how We all survived before the Saviour of Halal Certified food Befell us !! !!
    Adrianus
    26th Nov 2014
    5:22pm
    Remember the old days....it started with a kiss?
    Well halal started with a cow and now it has grown to the point that it is looking like everything will eventually be halal certified. The question we should be asking is .... What is the real purpose? and is it good for Australia?

    Let me start off by saying that the only purpose I can see is the tax revenue.
    If this is true then we can stop right there! Because we should only have one tax regime in this country.
    miss aisle
    26th Nov 2014
    5:48pm
    geomac - your words -
    ".....my query was why would a piggery require certification as it made no sense."

    Well, WHY would toilet paper, ice blocks, vitamic C require certification ??

    It all boils down to money, doesn't it - going into their treasure chest.

    I tried to point these things out to you but you didn't want to listen.
    Money is being made from certification from products - products which do not
    require it! But you kept going off the beaten track, dismissing facts.

    Frank is right about the halal starting in the Hawke era.
    But, of course, you don't want to believe those facts OR check up on it.

    Why ask for facts, if the only way you want to respond, is with doubt,
    & sidestepping.
    miss aisle
    26th Nov 2014
    6:02pm
    geomac - egg packs, cold cuts, devon ?? what on earth do they have in common
    with halal certification of products not needing it ?
    Why do you keep sidestepping away from the issue at hand?
    Adrianus
    26th Nov 2014
    7:10pm
    Very good questions miss aisle!! Some people don't understand that their mind is closed and that is why they are held back. They don't realise that anything they desire is available to them if they just open their minds to the possibilities. I see this all the time. Geomac reminds me of some of these people I have met. He is denying the facts because he does not like the messenger.
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    7:17pm
    Well I don't Care what anyone says ! And no further correspondence will be entered Into !!..ITS BULLSHIRT !!
    Let one of Them come to Me and explain how that Crap alters the Taste ,Texture Safeness or Wellbeing of any Product ! And I will let Him Hallal My 48 Pack of No Name Date Rolls Roll, By Roll !!... GOOD BYE !!
    geomac
    26th Nov 2014
    7:34pm
    miss aisle
    "
    I tried to point these things out to you but you didn't want to listen. "
    I responded to why those items may get halal and it would seem it is you who does not want to heed what is said. Halal can be because no alcohol or pork based product is used in cleaning or the production process and probably other stuff I dont know about. I have mentioned this a few times miss aisle so how come you missed it ? You seem determined to have a go at me while ignoring what I have shown to be incorrect assertions.
    Now tell me why it is significant when halal started and if you know when it in fact did start ? Why should I check hansard and in any case stated I would take Franks word for it as its irrelevant. You will recall Frank said it is mentioned in hansard ie the matter was raised. Frank did not say Hawke started it or legislated it and most natural food is halal without any label or certificate anyway.
    I am not sidestepping and have been quite clear in relation to halal and pork. You on the other hand keep nitpicking. Is there any reason I cannot say free range eggs labels and halal labels may not mean much ? Am I restricted from making an opinion or idle chat because you think it is sidestepping.
    You have yet to agree that a pork product does not get halal certification even though it is obvious that it does not. After all thats what kicked off most of this chat. You boycott or buy halal certified stuff, thats your concern not mine. You say a pork product gets halal certification then I get involved because its an obvious and absurd notion that needs to be corrected.
    You can bag me all you like , no sweat. The one thing I set out to correct I have achieved and for that small point I am satisfied. I have no desire or ambition to change your views just to make you realise what is wheat and what is chaff. If that annoys you or disturbs your world view , stiff cheddar. Surely you would rather be correct in saying something than be open to ridicule for saying something blatantly false. With that in mind just remember I have not ridiculed you but tried to show you in a civil way that the pork halal question is incorrect.
    geomac
    26th Nov 2014
    7:37pm
    Frank
    It started with a kiss is the opening line in a song , eighties ? I was thinking Fine young Cannibals but maybe another english group with a coloured lead singer ? Is that what you were referring to or has it a different origin ?
    particolor
    26th Nov 2014
    7:46pm
    What's Next ?? Coming around in Mobs to Halal Your Tap Water, House, Car and Pushbike ??.
    For 50 Bucks or so per Item ??
    miss aisle
    26th Nov 2014
    11:02pm
    Yes Frank, some minds are locked up tightly.
    I know sometimes I get things wrong - & after posting & re-reading, look at my
    mistakes &........ sigh; but, boy oh boy..... talk about the impenetrable hide of a rhino ?

    particolor - Your words have once again, enlightened, & lightened my mood.

    Appreciated the company while travelling down an unfamiliar road.
    Adrianus
    27th Nov 2014
    8:19am
    We all get things wrong sometimes. That is why we form group think tanks to get the best possible outcomes. Making mistakes is one of the joys of life...he he.
    I really don't understand Tony Abbott not being his usual honest self and admitting when he has made a mistake. The bladerunner admitted to making a mistake and saved himself some serious gaol time. Ronald Regan admitted that he either made a mistake and forgot about it or may not have made a mistake and not forgot about it, which saved him from impeachment on the Iran contra business.
    particolor
    27th Nov 2014
    9:30am
    Its not only Me !! Have a look on Twitter !
    Terrorists may be Hiding in Your Vegemite !!
    Adrianus
    27th Nov 2014
    10:00am
    “Vegemite has never integrated, it’s never mixed well. So frankly I’m not surprised that Islamic State has chosen this item as cover for its next mission”.

    If the Chinese take a liking to vegemite how do we explain the additional tax?
    particolor
    27th Nov 2014
    10:08am
    We will just have to explain to them that it tastes (terrible) without the Middle Eastern Ingredient ??
    miss aisle
    27th Nov 2014
    11:19am
    particolor - 26th - 7:46pm
    Your comment may sound a little crazy, even extreme !
    But not to EXTREMISTS making plans now !
    Adrianus
    27th Nov 2014
    11:23am
    Yes parti, miss aisle, I agree! If they can halal a delivery driver then they can halal anything!
    particolor
    27th Nov 2014
    11:26am
    The Power Poles and Electricity are Next !! It will replace the Carbon Tax !!
    miss aisle
    27th Nov 2014
    11:33am
    Frank - 27th - 8:19am
    These think tanks are just - invaluable -
    The amount of info exchanged - well, the sky's the limit!

    Yes, Tony has sursprised me as well, -
    Refreshing & highy unusual for a pollie to admit he got something wrong..
    Hope he gets back on track, -
    In general, more people are more understanding with honesty.
    Adrianus
    27th Nov 2014
    12:08pm
    miss aisle, I think the muslim riots in September 2012 really sealed Labors fate for the 2013 election. Signs reading "behead all those who insult the Prophet."
    It was a violent display and a portent of a future under labor.
    Adrianus
    27th Nov 2014
    10:18am
    This is one politician's view.....

    "Australian businesses are being pressured to sign up for certification, and we are talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars here – $27,000 a month for an abattoir, $40,000 a year for a chicken processor, $5000 a year for a small suburban kebab shop.

    And yet there seems to be little transparency in the halal certification business. The profits derived from certification could be going anywhere.


    Surely consumers, who are increasingly being forced into buying halal-certified foods as more and more food manufacturers jump on the halal bandwagon, are entitled to know where the money goes. Surely consumers are also entitled to know which groceries in their shopping trolley have passed on a religious tax.

    George Christensen is the Federal Member for Dawson and the chairman of the House of Representatives Standing Committee for Social Policy and Legal Affairs."
    particolor
    27th Nov 2014
    10:44am
    I want every Religion in the Country to put in a bid for Certification ( Cough Up) on Food stuffs Etc. !!.."We cant eat this Vegemite it hasn't been to Mass !!" ETC.........
    miss aisle
    27th Nov 2014
    11:11am
    Large amounts of "religious" tax derived from Australian businesses & organizations,

    ON TOP of regular tax to ATO........is outrageous in the extreme !

    At least we know one lot goes to Australian govt., for Aussie projects...
    BUT, our money, disguised as a religious tax, (like you say Frank)
    could be going anywhere...?

    I admire the Federal Member for Dawson for bringing up the issue,
    & hopefully, will continue on from there.

    Hopefully, in the not too distant future,
    we will know where this "religious" money goes -
    & just as important, - which groceries have this particular tax added to them.

    I sincerely hope the public will heed your informative comment, Frank,
    & stand up for TeamAustralia...........
    particolor
    27th Nov 2014
    11:19am
    Just Google... Halal Certified Products... !! And don't get a SHOCK !! Nothing is Sacred !! And if You decide You are not going to buy any of them now !! I'm Afraid You Are Going To STARVE !!
    Adrianus
    27th Nov 2014
    11:48am
    I did get a shock even though I braced myself!!!
    I honestly think they would not know what they are eating. There is a lot of pork in chocolate for example.
    I notice Sara Lee has emulsifier (1412) in their apple pies which are halal certified. But do the Australian certifiers know where the ingredient comes from? And if so why don't they inform the public? And if so why are the certifiers privy to this information and not the consumer?
    particolor
    27th Nov 2014
    12:00pm
    I cant eat this Vegemite !! It hasn't had Holy Smoke waved over the top of the jar, and Walked 7 times around the Temple Clockwise on the back of an Ass ??
    Adrianus
    27th Nov 2014
    12:10pm
    It's like pecks paste. I'm still working my way through this big jar! I thought I was saving money. I put it everything I cook and still not making an impression. ugrhh!!
    particolor
    27th Nov 2014
    12:21pm
    I tried to get out of it to by Getting DEVILLED HAM (They wont go near that Stuff I thought ?) !! But to no avail !! They Attacked that too ??.. It must have been Devilled on machinery that Sacred Chickens had to roll over ??
    geomac
    27th Nov 2014
    12:27pm
    http://www.halal-australia.com.au/fees-and-charges/
    Basic info so not helpful as to costs as it varies. Interesting was the page that this mob started in 2004 and is AQIS accredited.
    http://www.halal-australia.com.au/professionals/

    1412 emulsifier is approved by the vegan site for vegetarians

    http://www.vnv.org.au/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=286&Itemid=102


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