Cashless welfare card to be trialled

The government will trial a cashless welfare card in some areas later this year.

Cashless welfare card to be trialled

A cashless welfare card designed to stop welfare recipients from spending their taxpayer-funded income on drugs, gambling and alcohol will be trialled in some states by the end of the year.

The card, a brainchild of mining magnate Andrew ‘Twiggy’ Forrest, aims to combat rising levels of domestic violence against women and children, and to prevent parents from spending their welfare income on ‘vices’ instead of food and clothes for their children. The trial locations will be decided through community consultation.

“Firstly, [ideal locations would be] where there is high welfare dependence and high harm caused by welfare-fuelled alcohol and drug abuse”, said Parliamentary secretary Alan Tudge. “Secondly, where there’s some community leadership which is at least open to trialling the card in their community.”

The biggest problem facing disadvantaged communities is alcohol abuse. Heavy drinking is a factor in half of all reported child abuse and domestic violence cases.

The welfare card would operate as a normal bank debit card, working similarly to VISA, Mastercard and EFTPOS. Cardholders will not be able to purchase alcohol in pubs, clubs or liquor outlets or on gambling.

“You could use it for anything, you could use it anywhere – but you simply could not purchase alcohol or gamble with it,” said Mr Alan Tudge.

“The objective is to address the enormous social harm of welfare-fuelled drug and alcohol use,” he continued. “I think this reform could absolutely change the lives of some women and children. This could have a dramatic impact on the community in terms of rates of violence and rates of assaults, particularly against women.”

Social Services Minister Scott Morrison says there are no plans to use the ‘Healthy Welfare Card’ in the wider community, but has confirmed the government will commence trials in both indigenous and non-indigenous disadvantaged communities later this year.

Mr Morrison said, “It’s there as a key tool to target particular areas of disadvantage and to see whether it can make the big difference that we believe and hope that it can.”

Read more at The Daily Telegraph

Read more at www.abc.net.au

Opinion: What do our friends say?

When I first read about the ‘Healthy Welfare Card’, my immediate reaction was that, if effectively managed, it could be good idea. At the same time, I think it is a little scary that a system such as this is being introduced and trialled in our community, specifically for the purpose of reducing the likelihood of alcoholism, domestic violence and child abuse. I mean, is a card really going to solve those problems?

Wouldn’t some sort of compulsory education and training system be more beneficial to disadvantaged people in the long run? Wouldn’t such a system also create jobs and also make people on welfare more attractive to employers? Wouldn’t people who are desperate enough for drink and drugs then turn to illegal methods in order to satisfy these needs?

Maybe I’m just being sceptical. To be honest, I’m not quite sure what I think about this new welfare payment system. But then I thought: “why not see what some of our Facebook friends are saying about this new cashless welfare card?” Here are some responses:

Please note: some comments have been slightly edited for readability.

Sally-anne Byrne says: “I think that if a welfare recipient has been charged with drug or alcohol offences, then it should be mandatory.”

Marian Cross says: “What an awesome idea. That way the taxpayers will only have to help the truly needy and not the addicts of unnecessary [items such as] drugs, alcohol, smokes and gambling. For those addictions they will have to find some other means, preferably not illegal.”

Fred Petersen says: “Does this include aged pensioners and disability pensioners? You know they already suffer enough hardship and an occasional drink never hurt anyone.”

Gina Winning says: “Demeaning to those already demeaned by unfortunate job loss, or other circumstances forcing them to have to collect welfare. It’s easy to write people off as collecting free money, but lots have worked, paid taxes and [still] been unfortunate to have something go wrong [of which] they have no control. Meanwhile, rich companies and shareholders [employ] creative accounting to ensure they pay very little tax, and no-one blinks an eye. The government push bad attitudes as [it] suits them so society can have a scapegoat on which to blame their poor management, and we keep accepting it. Could be anyone of us to lose our job next. Is this how you want to be treated?”

Colleen Mesiti says: “After they get control of your welfare, they will go after the working class tax paying people. They want control of how you spend your money too.”

Valerie Haigh says: “Sounds good in theory – I like the idea. The thing that frightens me is the fact that our crime rate will most likely sky rocket due to desperate people needing their drug or alcohol fix. Not saying everyone on welfare is in that category. I know a few people who have tried for work but there are few jobs available in country areas even if you are trained.”

Seems to be quite a polarising subject. What’s your opinion? Do you think a cashless welfare card is a good idea? Do you feel that a system such as this may benefit some but not others? 





    COMMENTS

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    8th Jun 2015
    9:40am
    Great idea why should the Government pay for pensioners or dole bludgers excesses they should only be allowed to pay for the necessities of life, the rest needs to come from there own money.
    Sen.Cit.90
    8th Jun 2015
    11:09am
    Robbo; I'm a 86 y o pensioner; never lost a days work (by choice) in all my working years including military service., I paid for the Government all those years, that is why the Government should now support me.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:20am
    The card is the first sensible idea I have heard for a long time to combat the apparent 'rights' to abuse welfare. For too long some welfare consume have spent taxpayer money on booze, gambling and other pursuits which have nothing to do with what the payments were designed to support.
    I can already hear the cries of 'rights' from those affected...with no acknowledgement of the reality that welfare come from somebody and that it needs to be used for SURVIVAL, not addiction and pleasure.
    I applaud the introduction of such a system and can only hope that it is not killed off by those who will use the individual rights rhetoric to continue the abuse of the welfare system which has needed reform for so many years but which has been ignored because both sides refuse to get a bipartisan agreement and both sides fear reprisal through the ballot box. But then what is government all about: getting re-elected or governing the country properly? I believe that making the right call will gain more votes than it will lose.
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    11:21am
    I agree all people on welfare should be given one. The pension should be used to sustain life not be used to play the pokies or any of the other vices not necessary to live.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    11:22am
    Agree, Sen.Cit.84. My 90-year-old mother has been a pensioner for years, after working very hard for 40+ years, serving in the Land Army, and doing tens of thousands of hours of charity work. She has always been a responsible person, a good parent, and a careful financial manager, but she LOVES her sherry. Why the hell should someone like her be denied her only pleasure in life because some arrogant, self-opinionated privileged people think they have a right to dictate how pensions are spent? And who the hell are bureaucrats to decide who is a ''dole bludger'' and who is an unfortunate or disadvantaged person struggling to find a place in a cruel and uncaring society. Oh, but what does it matter what someone is suffering, Robbo. Punish them anyway, because the privileged want to ensure that they are the only people who can enjoy life. Can't have the disadvantaged actually getting pleasure out of existing in this world of vile elitists.

    I hope you never fall on hard times, mate!
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    11:30am
    Sorry Mick and Bonny. You are living in la-la land. Obviously you have no comprehension of the problem and no idea about solutions. It's not about the ''rights'' of those affected, nor the ''rights'' of taxpayers. It's about how you fix a problem. The most important factor in assisting someone who makes poor spending choices is building their self-respect and letting them feel empowered to improve. Give them education, guidance, and support - not a stick that demeans them and destroys their faith in human nature and their incentive to try. I do not support the ''individual rights'' rhetoric. I just want to see common sense applied and working solutions devised - not wild fantasy ideas dreamed up by some privileged person who has no comprehension whatever of the problem and doesn't give a damn for the welfare of those it affects.

    Andrew Forrest is the last person we should look to for advice about a problem from which he is so far removed that he might as well live on Mars. We need to talk to the people who work with addicts and spendthrifts every day - or people who have experienced the problem and beaten it, not idealists who see waving a big stick as the solution to every ill.

    Or perhaps the goal isn't to help the affected at all? Perhaps it's all about protecting the interests of the privileged, and doing that at any cost? In that case, the idea still fails because it's been evidenced to cost more than it saves.
    tia-maria
    8th Jun 2015
    11:37am
    Sen.Cit 84.....your spot on mate yes we deserved the right and the respect to have our pensioner..........as far as some of you goodie goodie that are able to support yourself not every one was so lucky in life.........BUT I say the younger generations who are the dole bludgers this type of card is an excellent choice for them
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    11:40am
    I certainly wouldn't want to be that woman abused because I would give some over powering man my welfare payment in cash. If it's not in cash then that is one less problem I have to deal with and my kids might just get a bit of what they need. Cash is the big problem here and no amount of education can fix that one.
    tia-maria
    8th Jun 2015
    11:42am
    Bonny I am not sure that your suggesting the retired pensioners she be given one if so .......what age group are you??? because show the retired pensioners with respect please.............many on this post are return veterans went with out a lot by protecting our country.
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    11:55am
    Good heaven if saying that people who get the privilege of welfare should get it with strings attached is not showing respect then I am not showing respect.

    If people do the right thing then I can't see any problems with all welfare payments being attached to such a card.
    Pablo
    8th Jun 2015
    12:15pm
    I totally agree Robbo. What a lot of people in this country do not seem to realize is that the dole and single parent pension are there ONLY to tide you over until you get a job. It is not meant to be a handout that you can live the high life on. Restricting dole and single parent pensions to payment by a cashless welfare card is an absolutely excellent idea which should be extended to all dole & single parent recipients. Why should hard working tax payers have to fork out tax payments so that those who won't work can bludge on the rest of us????
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:20pm
    Rainey: if you want to fix the problem then cut off cash for the addiction. That is a start.
    Your spiel about Andrew Forrest shows little understanding. Has Forrest not EMPLOYED many Aboriginal workers to help this society?
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    12:27pm
    You can't cut off the cash to an addict, Mick. That's what addiction is. They will do ANYTHING to get their fix. And I don't care how many Aboriginal workers Forrest has employed, or what he has done to help society, he still doesn't understand the problem he purports to be trying to solve. Hiring a few Aboriginals doesn't give you an appreciation of the problems of the kind of people who are unemployable and desperate.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    12:34pm
    Obvious you know nothing of the life of women who are abused by addicted husbands, Bonny, or you'd know that they will be beaten senseless if they DON'T HAVE CASH TO HAND OVER WHEN IT'S WANTED. The card isn't going to help these poor women at all. It will make their situation far, far worse.

    And as for ''strings'' attached to the ''privilege of welfare'', that's an elitist attitude from someone who clearly has no empathy for the vast majority of people who are on ''welfare'' through no fault of their own, but generally through the gross failure of a sick elitist society. Good heavens, we even say people who worked for a pathetic pittance (making the more privileged rich!) and paid taxes for 40+ years and are now too old and crippled to work are on ''welfare''. This disgustingly elitist society of egotists can't even acknowledge that our veterans and those who gave a lifetime working for their country have an ENTITLEMENT, let alone recognize the entitlement of those who were born disabled or suffer serious illness, or those who - try as they may - simply CANNOT find anyone to give them a chance to work in a cruel and evil world. Clearly, compassion and empathy are in short supply in this selfish world we live in.
    tia-maria
    8th Jun 2015
    12:46pm
    Bonny cool down a little maybe we don't agree but to be tarnish as to the dole bludgers......drugo.......gambling.....etc..... I do take this as an insult..........full stop.
    marto
    8th Jun 2015
    12:58pm
    Is ok with me we like most pensioner spend it on the right things

    what is that old saying some times you have to be cruel to be kind

    its only those that abuse the system and neglect their children that need to be brought into line the rest of us do a good job
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    2:25pm
    Personally, I'd rather pay taxes for someone to spend on grog or gambling than for some rich and privileged person to get a tax cut for investing in negatively-geared property, or to pay for tax concessions on superannuation to someone earning $250,000 a year. If it's about savings money for taxpayers, there are a thousand more effective and fairer ways to do that. Why are we always attacking the disadvantaged, when it's the greed and excesses at the top that are the real problem?
    Hasbeen
    8th Jun 2015
    2:44pm
    Not only a great idea, but essential. There is no reason young families, struggling with the cost of mortgages & kids should be asked to pay for pensioners or bludgers to waste money they didn't'\t earn.

    I live like a king on the pension, because I own everything I want, & don't drink, smoke or gamble. It is so good I sometimes feel a little guilty at how much fun I have. I can chose any of my 3 old sports to go for a drive, & have no trouble maintaining them. They are not all that valuable models, but are great fun.

    Of course, I did own them before retirement, & can do most of the regular work myself. I have tried to get my 30 year old son, who is just a little jealous of the better one, to see it is worth about 2 years of his drinking & smoking expenditure, & I think he does.

    It is his choice to spend his hard earned that way, but it should never be someone else's choice to spend his money that way.
    moke
    8th Jun 2015
    4:41pm
    Robbo are you trying to say that pensioners who have worked all their life but were unfortunate enough not to be in the superannuation time or work for the government should not be allowed to have a little leisure or entertainment sounds like you have a decent bank account and maybe a little small minded.
    moke
    8th Jun 2015
    4:45pm
    Robbo I think you will find that the problem is mostly with the unemployed, I worked with them for about five years trying to help them gain employment and the things I heard and saw would make one wonder why food coupons etc were not used instead of cash for unemployment benefits.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    5:00pm
    It is not welfare, it is social security, and is not a privilege or a gift - it is a bought and paid for Right out of a portion of income tax. I've posted that for you before - try to keep up in class.

    In that case, no government may decree how it is spent. If someone would prefer to starve than usetheir money for food etc.. that is their problem.

    There MAY be an argument - a very limited argument - for having such things for drug addicts and where it is a proven fact that dependents are missing out as a result. Otherwise there is no justification for this neo-Nazism of the poor.

    I'm with Sen.Cit.84.....
    Doug
    8th Jun 2015
    5:47pm
    A lot of assumptions being made about the unemployed by some very over opinionated people on this thread.
    Firstly the vast majority of the unemployed ARE NOT abusing children, they are not abusing drugs, they are not abusing alcohol.
    This fact alone destroys the accusations made attacking the unemployed with thoughtless generalisations and outright lies.
    The broken moral compass of these cretinous "I'm alright jack" crowd here is disgusting.


    Judge Not - There, But for the Grace of God, Go I OR YOU!
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    5:56pm
    Thank you, Doug and Trebor. You are absolutely correct.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    6:00pm
    TREBOR
    I agree... it is neo-fascism.

    This proposal for a CashLess Card is only the first step - forcing social security recipients on this card (Pensioners will also be the next inclusion) - will give this fascist government absolute control over all social security recipients.
    The next step is to force others in the community on to this cashless card system, those that are in the lower echelons... again absolute control. The next step is to force everyone into a CASHLESS SOCIETY which gives absolute control to the likes of Abbott and is fascist mule carriers. I can image Dutton & Morrison & Hockey sitting with their snouts in the pig trough wallowing in OUR incapacity.

    IF you buck the system, your cashless card stops working for a day, week, month, year, forever!!! No one will know about it and if it does get out, they simply turn to their corporate controlled media mates and pump out some 'terrorist' story.

    It seems as if they are using George Orwells 1984 as a GUIDE, don't you think.

    Oh! TREBOR you picked up an excellent example of Orwell 1984 tactic.... changing the title of 'social security' to WELFARE. It has a brilliant effect doesn't it! Taking away our rights and the governments obligations towards some of the biggest tax contributors into bludger HANDOUTS, with a simple change of name!!

    The wealthy the smallest contributors to Australia's coffers screaming the loudest to stop US the PEOPLE from providing for OUR OWN.

    For goodness sake people, do NOT get roped in, YET AGAIN!
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:39am
    Why, Citizen Smith! I'm shocked.. just SHOCKED that you would compare our Benevolent Leader, Ministry of Truth etc with 1984...

    (**tongue in cheek**)

    In some ways 1984 has been upon us for a very long time, and we just haven't noticed it... what we are seeing here is the stirrings of wakefulness... the Kraken may not be loosed yet, but it is definitely stirring..... rising knowledge and understanding by the many has created a nightmare for politicians these days....

    The words of the Prophets are written on the Internet walls.........
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:41am
    TREBOR
    Indeed, 1984 has been with us "For a Long Tome" now and many mechanisms of control are already "In Place".
    They just need the final pieces of "THE MATRIX" INSTALLED after which EVENT the "Pin if Pulled" and the Grenade is "Set to explode" in ONE FOUL SWOOP.
    We just won't know what hit us!

    HELLO SERFDOM & SLAVERY
    particolor
    12th Jun 2015
    7:21pm
    Please Explain their own money ????
    Patriot
    12th Jun 2015
    7:35pm
    particolor
    I think that some don't see that, when these young-ones are refused entry into the "work Force" the MUST rely on the Government to supply the basics & that Goct money Rightfully becomes theirs.
    After all, Their & Our Servants have "Sold Them OUT" and - by supporting the ELITES - deprived them of the HUMAN RIGHT to be able to support themselves & a Family.
    In other words they deprived them to: "Have a Future"!!!
    Possum
    8th Jun 2015
    9:46am
    Personally, I would like to know what gives our Government the power to dictate how individuals live their lives.
    This card is not a means to an end, it is a means to so many other problems.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:21am
    The answer is WHO PAYS. The public certainly has a right to demand that welfare is not abused.
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    11:24am
    If you rely on welfare then the Government has a right to have a say in how you spend the money and not abuse it.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    11:42am
    Bonny, we first should ask WHY a person relies on welfare. If it's because of flawed Government policies, a failed social structure, stupid bureaucratic decisions, illness, disability, old age, or a multitude of other reasons that DO NOT reflect in any way on the person's integrity or decency, then why should they forfeit their self respect and access to a few simple pleasures? It's sad how privileged elitists judge and condemn without considering their own role in creating problems and with neither compassion not empathy for the victims of a cruel world and a very flawed system.

    When it comes to those few who really don't have a moral entitlement to ''welfare'' money, you have two choices: use the policeman and stick approach to compound problems and drive them to desperate measures like selling food and clothing or stealing; or get creative in offering support, education and guidance while allowing them to preserve their self-respect and feeling of having control over their own lives. The stick will fail every time!
    Theo1943
    8th Jun 2015
    1:13pm
    Totally agree Rainey. The Gov't is (pretty successfully it appears) trying to demonise all people who receive money from the Gov't coffers unless it is giving handouts and tax relief to people who already have more than 2.5 million in their Super accounts.
    You really can't dictate how people spend their Gov't payments. Maybe they should extend this to more Gov't payments. Who wants their Tax Return cheque in food stamps then?
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    5:05pm
    It's not welfare, people - it's bought and paid for social security....

    Let us begin by affirming that social security is a right in any civilised society, and as many, many times, has been shown to come from a part of income tax.

    Now you may argue that some have never worked - thank you for offering to my grand-children the title of 'dole bludgers' when they leave school and can find no work (they will - most likely in film work) - but the argument for a portion of Income Tax having been levied in the past to cater for social security, says that it come from the general revenue of income tax, and offers benefits to all of society. therefore the issue of whether or not a person has paid income tax yet, or even ever does, has no place in this discussion.

    Again - are you suggesting that the severely disabled girl whose parents care for her should pay income tax?

    Not only that - but most of you miss the point that income tax is only a portion of total tax....... EVERYONE is a taxpayer whenever they spend in any way.
    Doug
    8th Jun 2015
    5:34pm
    Mick and Bonny are acting out the new motto of Kick Down Kiss Up.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    6:03pm
    Doug

    Very, very nicely put!
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    7:42pm
    mick,
    The pension is NOT the public's money !!
    It is rightfully theirs (as they have saved for it for many years)
    They should - within limits - be allowed to do with it as they like.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    7:44pm
    Theo & TREBOR
    Both VERY CORRECT !!!
    JOHN T
    8th Jun 2015
    9:51am
    The welfare card is a goody two shoes way of trying to sweep a problem away with out trying to prevent the communities problems in the long term.
    W hat is to stop the card holders selling the items they can buy with card
    and buying acohol with the money they get ?
    John T (QLD)
    Sen.Cit.90
    8th Jun 2015
    11:03am
    JOHN T; selling off was my immediate thought; I wonder who would buy?
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:22am
    Good point. But would you sell your food and clothing if you could only get a pittance for it? Hard one though and no accounting for those who CHOOSE to destroy their lives and that of their families.
    Nanna52
    8th Jun 2015
    11:34am
    Many years ago when I was teaching some children were given some new clothes as they only had a coat. Next day they arrived in the coat again. Dad had sold the clothes for alcohol.
    Misty
    8th Jun 2015
    11:51am
    John that is exactly what I thought, or maybe even swopping food items for drugs and alcohol.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:21pm
    Your account Nanna52 is not the norm.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    12:35pm
    Actually, Mick, Nanna52's account IS the norm. It's EXACTLY what will happen if this card is introduced.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:38pm
    Some Rainey. Not all.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    1:00pm
    Oh, that's okay then Mick. A few families might benefit, but many will suffer and violence and crime will rise, but that's fine because NOT ALL victims of this cruel proposal will respond by selling the kids' clothes or tucker or bashing someone to steal his wallet. Only SOME will respond that way, so that makes it okay.

    And you, of course, know the numbers? So you can tell us exactly how much benefit there will be vs the cost, yeah?
    Theo1943
    8th Jun 2015
    1:16pm
    I predict some people will be able to buy their food with a welfare card they bought from someone at $0.50 in the dollar. This is how to make poor people poorer and easier for the rich.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:09pm
    Sen.Cit - there's a nice cottage industry in getting viagra from a DVA doc, and then selling it on.... offered that I laughed.
    particolor
    12th Jun 2015
    7:29pm
    JOHN T.. And that is exactly what they will do with it !! :-) The only way to beat them is to make them line up at the Soup Kitchen ! And no Take Away's !! :-) :-)..for future Sales ! :-)
    Dotty
    8th Jun 2015
    9:53am
    Well for starter's, I also thought it a good idea as I have a neighbor next door to me that drinks all day and is drunk by lunch time !! She has four children of those, three are still at home and the other went off the rails when he was only 15 yrs old as he had no parent figure to encourage him otherwise ! I now have a feeling the the second eldest is heading the same way as the older sibling!
    The Mother is on the single Parent pension and I don't think has worked a day in her life, although her youngest is now going on 11 yrs old ! She has male visitors there every day and drinks with them consistently every day ! !
    So I thought to start, that this would be a great idea for someone in that situation!, But on further thoughts, I feel that this would cause her to then go to stealing etc to compensate for the lack of monies for Alcohol I I have since noted that there already seems to be a few of the later hanging around as I have noticed this type of underhanded passing off and monies being handed back in exchange !
    So the rot has already set in ! So where does that leave this new card ?? I wonder if it would solve the drug and Alcohol problem !! I think not !
    Dotty
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:26am
    It is a good idea for people like the above. Crime is pursued through the proper channels and children in these sort of families possibly need to be removed. There are plenty of people wanting to adopt children and unfit parents need to make a choice.
    Can't win whatever you do I guess.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    12:19pm
    Mick, can I suggest you read ''The Pencil Case: They Stole Us White Kids too''? (It's on Amazon). It might enlighten you as to what happens when you empower bureaucrats to take children from ''these sorts of families''. There are hundreds of thousands of instances of seriously damaged individuals out there today - many precisely the kind you are suggesting need to be ''policed'' - because privileged elitists presumed to be capable of judging who was and who wasn't fit to be a parent, and who should and who shouldn't be entitled to receive money from the taxpayer to spend as they pleased.

    I've seen dozens of families that I would remove children from, if I hadn't seen, first hand, just how much harm it does to deprive a child of their family, their heritage, and their sense of belonging. We are apologizing to the ''Stolen Generation'' and ''Forgotten Australians'' and dealing with demands for reparation from the people whose lives were destroyed by the very same policies you advocate. Have we learned nothing at all? Are we so damned self-righteous that we think we can ignore the lessons of the past and continue to play God, deciding who is and who isn't entitled to enjoy the pleasures of life and on what terms? Who will decide who is ''unfit''? I'd love to make more children available for adoption. There are lots of people out there who desperately want, and deserve, a child to love. But even kids brought up in the best adoptive families often suffer hideous psychological damage through removal from their ''roots'', and I've seen kids dragged up in homes I would consider a disaster who grow up healthy, happy and well-adjusted.

    No, you can't win, sadly! But please don't advocate another Stolen Generation!
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:23pm
    I am all for removing children from families where they are being abused. But 'education' by their parents is for the most case a waste of time because they do not want to change their way of life. That was my point.
    minnie
    8th Jun 2015
    12:28pm
    I agree this card won't stop this Dotty, it will escalate it and give a rise to crime. If this Mum is so bad have DOCs been informed, is there family or some organisation to help her and her kids? If she can't get the alcohol then she'll get the kids to steal from her neighbours to get money.

    It seems to be forgotten in countries such as the US that deal mainly in 'food stamps' that there's more crime. And in one US state they now say food stamps can't buy certain foods, such has steak or certain potatoes or shell fish. How much more do the haves want to bash the have nots?

    Personally I don't want a cruel demeaning society, I want a more compassionate one and one that when people need help they get it without demeaning them. It's hard enough for some to have to go to Centrelink and ask for help without this current attacking.

    While we like to think everyone is 'rorting' the system, the hard facts don't bear that scream and our government yells 'get a job bludger' the truth is their aren't enough jobs and industry and business are closing, and this government is bringing in record amounts of FIFO and 457 visa workers. So spare a thought everyone for those trying hard to get a head who are getting slapped down by a cruel and nasty government.
    minnie
    8th Jun 2015
    12:33pm
    Spot on Rainey!

    mick when kids are taken from parents they can't just be adopted! Even fostering these days leaves a lot to be desired, where some kids are moved from home to home until 18 and then they have no-where to go but the streets. Obviously there are parents that need help and kids sadly that need to be cared for until the parents are able to, and kids want their parents.

    It's so easy to point the finger at someone that we don't have a clue what's going on, and no not everyone is deserving but boy we have to try don't we?
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:40pm
    I think you are talking about older children minnie. This needs to happens when they are young and wanted by a permanent family, not one which is just after carer payments.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    12:48pm
    Mick, how the hell would you know who does or doesn't want to change their way of life?

    Yes, please remove abused children. Except in the past we've removed them to places where they suffered far worse abuse and deprivation. And kids were removed who weren't being abused, but they sure copped abuse after removal. And today... well, we don't really know what we've removed them to. We'll find out when they grow up and tell us. What we do know is that a lot of them are being shuffled between foster homes and have no stability at all. And we know that even if parents are pathetically inadequate, kids love them and want to be close to them - and to their siblings. People want to grow up in the world they were born into.

    We also know that the ''deadbeats'' you refer to nearly always have a sad story to tell about how society's ills and evils pushed them to where they are today.

    Maybe if the privileged elitists took a little more responsibility for the social wrongs that they perpetrate and support, instead of judging the victims so harshly, we could improve things a bit? But that would involve being less selfish and greedy, and that's never going to happen. Much easier to simply deny the victims of social wrongs any level of pleasure or self-respect. Sad thing is it doesn't actually benefit anyone. ''The Card'' has been shown to cost more than it saves!
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    7:49pm
    Withholding alcohol does not FIX an alcoholic but just stimulates WORSE CRIME
    survivor
    8th Jun 2015
    9:57am
    Very Scary. IT is turning time back to the days where you had no pride and went to what was called the washhouse or workhouse. I agree that some people abuse the system, but if it is rolled out it will become the norm and another hard won freedom will be gone. Why punish the innocent because of a guilty few. We need to be vigilant where freedom is threatened. years ago wives did not receive welfare payments directly it was paid to the husband, and then when women started getting paid directly this was meant to stop this abuse of money being spent on smokes and alcohol and used instead to buy food for the kids. Looks like it did not work, but to co cashless is just another form of control,that does not address the real problem, lack or meaning for many when there is no work and no hope
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:28am
    Some people have no pride. What do you do?
    Maybe the card needs to be forced onto people via the courts only. That way you do not target those you are not misusing taxpayer funded welfare.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    12:07pm
    Some people have no pride, Mick? So let's take away any chance they might have of developing some, shall we? Maybe we should resort to the American system of food stamps for the poor. No doubt the privileged elitists would LOVE that!

    Restricting the card to those who are evidenced to be misusing taxpayer funded welfare would be an improvement, for sure, but not a solution to anything. What we need to do is change our attitudes. How about we start by asking why people have no pride and what we, as a society, can do to help them develop some? What about we ask what is wrong with our society that drives people to make stupid and self-destructive choices and to lack personal pride. (Hmmm. We could start with institutional child abuse, sex abuse, bureaucratic bungling or political corruption that persecutes innocent people, government-condoned fraud that robs people of their savings, exploitation and abuse in the workplace... shall I go on?)

    I would much rather see work-for-the-dole programs introduced, and compulsory work programs for single parents (with childcare provided), so that recipients of taxpayer-funded payments (I refuse to call it ''welfare'', because that's demeaning!) gain an understanding of the relationship between work and reward and can feel a sense of achievement. Then, give them access to education programs and budgeting advice. Show them what they can attain if they change their lifestyle, but don't deprive them of everything that makes their current miserable life tolerable for them. All that will do is drive up suicide rates, crime rates, and domestic violence, and create an even more desperate underclass.

    Education, support and guidance won't work every time, but it will do far less social damage than the policeman and stick approach.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:27pm
    Rainey: your 'education' rhetoric is the flavour of the month. Politicians of all sort love to use this rhetoric. All it does it to continually increase the workload of teachers who have to rob a real education from their classes.
    Provide a solution. Not a feel good rhetoric.
    I do agree with you about society and working for the dole. But you cannot fix society through feel good talking as those who abuse the system just laugh at that. A bit of hard love and the control of what funds can be used for are not out of order.
    minnie
    8th Jun 2015
    12:38pm
    I've always said for the few that 'rort' I'm happy if being on Centrelink means, they stay out of crime and aren't on the street knocking people on the head for their purses. The same as I was happy that the unmarried mothers pension came in and girls could keep their babies, yes some do the wrong thing, but I think of the girls I knew who had to give up their babies and the children now looking for their birth parents.

    I didn't have kids so why should I care, because my level of compassion for others isn't limited to my life and what I have it's wanting everyone to have enough.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:45pm
    Fair enough minnie but the annual welfare budget just keeps growing. Perhaps you have a solution when schools, hospitals, police and all other social institutions are cut to the bone because THERE IS NO MONEY LEFT. I guess when you pension goes down you will then see red.
    The above issue is one of many in the welfare debate and there are many Australians who believe that governments in this country need to do something other than talk and pander to those who do not want proper change.
    It will be interesting to see what the above trial achieves. If for one think it is long overdue and believe that if properly administered there will be improvements. But the jury is out and we'll have to wait and see.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    12:58pm
    Actually, Mick, the welfare budget in Australia is very small by comparison with other OECD countries. We have the most well-targeted and lowest cost system in the developed world, and our total spending on welfare is more than acceptable within the parameters of our federal budget. To reduce it, we need to create jobs - not hit the victims of social failure over the head. As to health and police spending etc., there would be plenty if the rich were taxed fairly and government waste stopped. It's not welfare spending that's the problem. That's just a convenient lie told by politicians who don't want to take responsibility for the real issues.

    Hockey is also saying the aged pension isn't affordable and young people will suffer if retirees continue to receive pensions. Except he forgot to say that there was a multi-billion dollar ''Welfare fund'' set up and paid into for generations to cover the cost of providing ALL retirees with a generous, non-means-tested pension. Only the Fraser Government stole all the money, didn't they? And now it's suddenly the fault of retirees that the country is in a mess and they have to sacrifice.

    If only people stopped believing politicians' lies and started examining reality! Welfare fraud will never be wiped out. Like shoplifting, it's a cost we have to live with in order to preserve the benefits of the system. But it's a relatively small cost, and whacking addicts over the head with a stick isn't going to reduce it. But it WILL drive up violence and crime.
    minnie
    8th Jun 2015
    1:32pm
    Yes Travellersjoy totally agree.
    minnie
    8th Jun 2015
    5:28pm
    Interesting Mick that you assume I'm on a pension because I care for other. Just goes to show those that only think about their own situation and don't give a damn for anyone else. Rainey is spot on with our 'welfare budget'. Maybe Mick if they stopped giving money to mining companies and big business and investing in our country we would see things improve. The 'trickle' needs to go up as it never comes down. People on low income or welfare spend all that money, normally locally and keep business going, unlike those with big money who spend more on their luxury cars, boats and overseas trips giving money to other countries tourism.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    7:53pm
    Rainly
    In My humble opinion, you understand the "Social Interactions" & associated issues very well.
    This is - ONCE AGAIN - a trick by Tony & Joe to OFFICIALLY get total control of the Australian population and deliver us into the "Hands of the Evil BANKSTERS".
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:14pm
    One thing I admire about older people of all kinds, is the way they have the pulse on issues such as where money goes.

    Well said, Minnie and Rainey as usual.
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:32am
    Discussion of the possibility that police etc could be cut.... never happen since it is a nice little earner for government, but still...

    Anyone stop to consider how, with all the plethora of 'laws' around these days, and the biting the pillow by the 'courts' to police assertions - a massive number of p0eople are rendered 'unemployable'?

    As before - I run Australia's Wrongfully Convicted - and it is a fact that some in that business run around ruining other people's lives for no real reason.

    Operation Just Cause - Just 'Cause We Can!
    Travellersjoy
    8th Jun 2015
    9:58am
    They haven't advanced beyond the 1884 Poor Laws in England.

    Removing people's citizenship rights and responsibilities is a pattern with this government.

    Next we will have people and not quite people. Now, just who did that last century? And where did it lead?

    I sure hope robbo never needs assistance from his fellow citizens, for, say, health care, or any of the other myriad problems that can blight a life. I would really really hate him to go without his tight little superiority security blanket.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    11:05am
    Well said, Travellersjoy. My thoughts exactly! Robbo clearly has no concept of how decent people can end up, through no fault of their own, in difficult circumstances - and indeed, may even resort to unwise habits that develop addictions out of desperation, because they are not shown respect and given access to help when it is needed, but rather demeaned, ridiculed, and punished.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:29am
    Some people should lose their rights. The children of some people have no rights...and should have the right to being properly fed and looked after.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:31am
    Rainey: decent people should not be a target of this sort of card. Only the deadbeats should have it forced on them. Welfare is not meant for grog, cigarettes and gambling.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    12:22pm
    I agree, Mick, but the ''deadbeats'' are precisely the people who will not accept the limitations of this sort of card but will steal, defraud, bash and cheat to get around the obstacles it presents.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:29pm
    So what do you do? Stand by and do nothing because some people are going to break the laws of the land. As much as I do not like jailing people there is a place for hard love and perhaps some education programs run in jails.....and a mandatory job when they get out.
    Its not a perfect world but there need to be rules and boundaries for all of us!
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    1:14pm
    I'm the first to agree with ''tough love'', Mick, but it needs to be LOVE, not tough hatred, abuse, and degradation. Yes, we need jails. Society must be protected. But you don't protect anyone by stopping an alcoholic from being able to buy that bottle of wine he craves or by barring the gambling addict from accessing coins to feed the poker machine if doing so makes the victim feel persecuted and punished. And education is much better BEFORE jail than inside it.

    Of course we need rules and boundaries. But they have to be implemented with an understanding of the problem we are dealing with and the consequences of particular measures, and with compassionate provision of viable alternatives for the people the measures affect. There needs to be quantifiable BENEFITS offered for compliance with rules and boundaries. That's why I proposed a budget program rather than the Card. Similar cost to implement, but with clear benefits and something for people to strive for, and without the social stigma attached to it.

    The first essential to help people who can't help themselves is to acknowledge society's role in creating the problem and treat them compassion and respect. When you can say ''I'm sorry. It's unfair that you suffer so, and I don't blame you for feeling downtrodden and helpless. The world has dealt you a cruel blow'' you have taken the first step to encouraging someone to help themselves up. When you say ''It's your fault, deadbeat, and you must be restrained'', you might as well put your foot on them and grind them into the dirt like you would an ant.

    As for mandatory jobs, oh how we wish they were available! We'd have a far lower ''welfare'' bill if we could offer jobs to people who need and want them. But instead, we brand them ''bludgers'' and ''deadbeats'' and threaten to withdraw the few small life pleasures they enjoy.
    minnie
    8th Jun 2015
    1:31pm
    mick before we start about what 'welfare' is for, maybe we should look at the Politicians and ask they refrain from drinking when representing us, and maybe even attend Parliament when issues are discussed, we are after all paying them!

    You seem to have your very own judgement of what a 'decent person' is and what 'well fed and looked after' entail. Who are you to say a person isn't feeding and caring for their family very well, and as a celebration of say Christmas or Birthday or Anniversary want to buy a bottle of bubbly or wine aren't allowed to do that. This is wrong wrong wrong and it's wrong wrong wrong that a billionaire miner is able to have our government do this! And also to displace people from the ancestral lands so he and Gina can mine it.

    Read what this is actually achieving Mick, you may be next or down the line but you will be on their list one day, never think you're too special or privileged for that.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    1:35pm
    Bravo, Minnie. Well said. Nice to see someone with both compassion and common sense.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:02pm
    Travellersjoy
    You are so correct.
    Mick - On this issue I fiercely oppose your thinking!!!
    Rainy & Minni - So right!

    Please watch the 3 minutes on the link below.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16K6m3Ua2nw
    It provides a view of the USofA NOW - and sad enough, we are NOT FAR BEHIND
    If CRAP like this is implemented we'll be "Right up There" very soon.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:18pm
    Many of our institutions, such as party-elected head of government, tax laws and concessions, industrial relations, and so forth, are stuck in the good old days of when only those with property could vote.

    Someone forgot to tell them that Australian men had universal suffrage in 1896 (from memory) and by the next election had voted for universal female suffrage as well. Bunch of chauvinists.... NOT!

    Now - how about a government of the people, for the people and by the people? and I'm not necessarily talking about a Republic here - same thing, different style.

    Simple enough - every election we hold a vote for Prime Minister and
    Deputy.. they can run as a team if they wish....

    At this point I doubt there is one politician who would get the nod.....
    Kato
    8th Jun 2015
    10:17am
    Wouldn’t some sort of compulsory education and training system be more beneficial to disadvantaged people in the long run? How long is a RUN some in the area I live have been on compulsory learning programs so long that it has become there career. A family who live down the road from me are losing there Government house because since there Mother passed away the Father keeps all the money what long term affect is that going to have on the children. So yes I support a welfare card.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:33am
    Another job fro teachers? They just keep piling up.
    This has nothing to do with "education" because some people have decided how they are going to live. The trouble is that taxpayers are of the opinion that welfare is not designed for abuse and should be used for living. I am with taxpayers who provide the funding, not those who consume and have 'rights'.
    Doug
    8th Jun 2015
    6:10pm
    Mick you don't like Rights?
    If I stood on your neck you'd change your mind about that.
    Oh you meant Rights for anyone poorer than you?
    You're a grub.
    No one owes you a damn thing prick.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:04pm
    Doug,
    They are "On the way" to "put the "boot on Mick's neck".
    Unfortunately, We won't escape either!!!
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:28pm
    Amazing.. simply amazing..... the Russian Revolutionaries.. a middle class bunch.. even in their outstanding rhetoric of freedom for the people.... deemed those of their class and more to be 'The People' - the serfs were not included.

    An astonishing form of elitism from a group allegedly seeking freedom for all on equal terms.. and something that remains in vogue with the 'middle classes' etc to this day.

    The Peasants Don't Count.. what Rights do they need other than to eat and breed for work?

    I think some here and elsewhere need some very serious mind-rectification.....
    Giles
    8th Jun 2015
    10:21am
    Excellent idea! It won't cure domestic violence, but even a little help is a move in the right direction. And it's not trying to control people "how you spend your money." It's telling people "how NOT to spend OUR money!"
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    11:08am
    It is likely to increase domestic violence, and crime. Have you any idea what lengths addicts will go to to get their ''fix''? Obviously not! Restrictions and penalties NEVER work to stop an addict spending ''our money''. They need guidance, education, support, and above all else to be treated with respect and allowed to make their own choices and decisions and to feel proud of their achievements when they make good ones. Anyone who understands addiction will not support this draconian, expensive, and inefficient proposal.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:35am
    Unlikely Rainey. If people are not constantly drunk and/or on drugs it is probably going to have the opposite effect.
    Good post Giles.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    12:24pm
    You don't get it, Mick. They WILL be constantly drunk or on drugs because addicts ALWAYS find ways around every obstacle. They will cheat, bash, defraud, steal, sell necessities - ANYTHING to get their fix. You cannot control an addict by taking his fix away. All you do is drive him to desperation.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:30pm
    Make it harder. Much harder. As long as you provide money for drugs and alcohol abuse YOU are the problem!
    Batara
    8th Jun 2015
    12:32pm
    Mick, get real mate. Rainey is right on the money and today you are acting like a true Abbott squaddy. Deadbeats, as you call them, will do anything for money to buy grog. Step into the real world.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:46pm
    So lets do nothing? How do you stop the rot? Not education!
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:48pm
    For the record Batara, read some of my other posts if you think that I am an "Abbott squaddy". You'll be surprised!
    Doug
    8th Jun 2015
    6:16pm
    Mick you clearly feel entitled to attack those less well off than you.
    It doesn't take Plato to know that you have no moral high ground.
    fancy attacking those of the under class.
    The world doesn't need more people like you either.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:06pm
    Mick,
    You are very wrong & actions proposed will be very COUNTERPRODUCTIVE for ALL OF US.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:34pm
    The causes of FAMILY violence are manifold and pretty much equal from both men and women, and occasionally children. Let us not fall into the current mode of assuming, with no evidence whatsoever, that 'domestic violence' is purely the domain of violent men towards women.

    Ask any man who's been married - how many times has HE been attacked physically.. whether he responds or not? How many times has he endured unbearable verbal attacks that can go on for days?

    This is an issue best left to the side here - we are talking about poverty and the constant and perpetual drive by government for Uberkontrol of the people, something that I've synthesised elsewhere as The Perpetual Civil War Between Elected Government and People, and The Divine Right (or otherwise) of Elected Government.

    DOES elected government enjoy the same Divine Right that caused the drive to elected government in the first place? Or is ALL government just a mirror of what it overthrew and merely a manifestation of the desire of a few to Uberkontrol others?
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:38pm
    Oh - for the thinking person - the current mode of approach to FAMILY violence is one foothold in the door for that same government to derive one avenue of Uberkontrol.. the placing of legal sanctions on innocent people at whim and with recourse to Law.

    I was pleasantly surprised that A Man Named Vanstone came out against arbitrary cancellation of citizenship for 'POSSIBLE terrorists - and said that it suffered the total lack of recourse to Law and to any oversight.

    Yet I will guarantee that she would unliterally support putting men in the cells for any possibility of violence in a dispute with a woman.

    We need to be ever vigilant so as to ensure that government does not achieve Uberkontrol... the price of Liverty is eternal vigilance.. and far too often the blood of many....
    Al1955
    8th Jun 2015
    10:31am
    I think this is a great move and although it wont stop the problems, it will at least encourage better spending of welfare money. We all really want welfare funds to be spent on the essentials of life to give children and disadvantaged the nutrition and shelter they need.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:07pm
    Al1955
    OLD age Pension is NOT WELFARE but a right that every pensioner has saved towards their whole working life!!!
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:40pm
    Hear, hear....
    particolor
    12th Jun 2015
    7:37pm
    I've had My petrol pinched again !! So they are not spending their Welfare on Gasoline !!
    Renny
    8th Jun 2015
    10:33am
    We're living in an increasingly fascist country where it's all about government control. It's a slippery slope and we're sliding faster every day. I'll fight this one tooth and nail.
    MILA
    8th Jun 2015
    10:43am
    have you ever lived....experienced a fascist country? just wondering!!
    survivor
    8th Jun 2015
    10:46am
    Yes it is happening in bits and pieces and most of us are too blind to see. The opal card is also taking a little piece of our freedom as well. What is that saying ,evil happens when good people stand by and do nothing
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:37am
    So are YOU paying taxes Renny? You fail to appreciate that SOMEBODY is paying and that this money IS MEANT FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE. Excessive grog, drugs, cigarettes and the Tab ARE NOT THE PURPOSE for which welfare has been made available. Never was.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    2:28pm
    Somebody is paying more so privileged negatively-geared property owners can pay less and to top up the superannuation accounts of $250000 a year salary earners, too, Mick. But I don't hear you whining about that. We could save a lot more by addressing that than by hitting out at a few unfortunate addicts. But just keep attacking the disadvantaged. There's nobody to lobby for them!
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    2:28pm
    Somebody is paying more so privileged negatively-geared property owners can pay less and to top up the superannuation accounts of $250000 a year salary earners, too, Mick. But I don't hear you whining about that. We could save a lot more by addressing that than by hitting out at a few unfortunate addicts. But just keep attacking the disadvantaged. There's nobody to lobby for them!
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    6:28pm
    Good on you Renny, survivor, & Rainey....

    mick it is NOT welfare...

    the wealthy elite and their corporations TAKE a great deal 'more' from government coffers than the they put in - remembering that taxes that corporations do pay are then removed by the shareholders of those same corporations (the owners) as Imputed Franking Credits - so they give with one hand and take back with the other!!

    These wealthy elite/corporations are parasitical and extract as much as possible which means ensuring that the people who do pay much, much more into government coffers, get less and less..... they consider that the people are also easier to control then, when they are on the bones of their a*ses and those that are in the middle are made to be terrified of having to join them, so become VERY malleable.

    It's a neo fascist game, to keep everything for themselves. The neo fascists throw about the terms "freedom and democracy and equality" as if they are lollies to pacify the majority. The same majority that are productive, pay for infrastructure, pay for education system, pay for health system, pay for our social system, pay for community services and benefits.

    Corporate controlled media (mostly foreign), spew forth ONLY what they want you to THINK.... mick.... try to look further mate, these bast**ds will fill your head with so much contradictions you won't know whether you are arthur or martha which is showing in your comments.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:10pm
    Mussitate & Others
    You've got the Opposition "Nailed & Done for".
    It's just that they don't seem to "want to admit" and "Hit the Canvas".
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:42pm
    I will rpeat this in this germane post:-

    "we are talking about poverty and the constant and perpetual drive by government for Uberkontrol of the people, something that I've synthesised elsewhere as The Perpetual Civil War Between Elected Government and People, and The Divine Right (or otherwise) of Elected Government.

    DOES elected government enjoy the same Divine Right that caused the drive to elected government in the first place? Or is ALL government just a mirror of what it overthrew and merely a manifestation of the desire of a few to Uberkontrol others? "

    "I was pleasantly surprised that A Man Named Vanstone came out against arbitrary cancellation of citizenship for 'POSSIBLE terrorists - and said that it suffered the total lack of recourse to Law and to any oversight.

    Yet I will guarantee that she would unliterally support putting men in the cells for any possibility of violence in a dispute with a woman.

    We need to be ever vigilant so as to ensure that government does not achieve Uberkontrol... the price of Liverty is eternal vigilance.. and far too often the blood of many.... "

    Mila - we have zero desire to EVER live in a fascist country... that is why we are here..... and why many here speak out without fear or favour.. in the eternal hope that such things will never come to that pass if we speak out now.
    Misty
    8th Jun 2015
    11:49pm
    Trebor it was not a man named Vanstone but a woman, formerly a Liberal politician named Amanda Vanstone who wrote that article about citizenship.
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:21am
    Could've sworn they said "A Man Named Vanstone" - I thought it was one of those old Richard Harris movies...

    Thanks for correcting me over A Man Named Vanstone actually being Amanda Vanstone..... though I preferred the former....

    (**tickles your ribs**)
    MILA
    8th Jun 2015
    10:42am
    good it is: something similar should apply to politicians : some spend and spend from visiting burdellos to excentricities. As for those on the dole and getting plenty of social/health benefits....time to find jobs: cleaning toilets....parks, beaches, whatever: let them earn the benefits and give them a sense of accomplishement by contributing back to our society
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:41am
    You have just gotten more people off side than my posts above MILA. Chuckle...
    But you have touched on the what upsets many taxpayers: the fact that a growing number of people are on welfare and then spouting their 'rights' so that they can abuse the whole intention of these payments.
    All Australians should contribute something in their lifetime other than consuming and I agree with you about giving something to society other than pain and growing social security bills.
    Doug
    8th Jun 2015
    5:55pm
    Mick you're a dunce. There reason there are more unemployed is because most jobs have gone for good.
    got that in your pea brain?
    Was that too hard for you?
    800000+ unemployed and only 180000 jobs for them.
    You can do math right mick?
    Count it out on your five thumbs your drongo.
    Not enough jobs to go around.
    Older people are not being rehired as they are let go.
    Not everyone has had you opportunity in life you insulated wanker.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:14pm
    Doug, And it is ALL on PURPOSE so that we - the remaining - will become "All Confused" and accept the CRAP they CONTINUOUSLY are ATTEMPTING TO "RAM down our Throats" in One form or Another.
    That is - until we weaken of course.
    From there on it "will be easy" for them!!!!
    SGW
    8th Jun 2015
    10:52am
    It's just another way the government can spy on people's life, i know there are problems with drugs and alcohol but it needs to be sorted out by other means. It's quite easy to say O but it's only for troubled communities, but thats just the thin end of the wedge. Bad idea.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:44am
    So how else do you stop abuse and misuse of TAXPAYER FUNDING. The problem with those who abuse welfare is that they fail to recognise that this money comes from those who get out of bed every day and go to work. Welfare money does not fall out of the sky.
    I do, however, believe that only the courts should decide who has this card and who does not because not all welfare recipients do the wrong thing.
    Doug
    8th Jun 2015
    5:58pm
    Mick no one's "abusing welfare".
    You're abusing oxygen though you nasty dog.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    6:54pm
    mick

    You start with the politicians to get them to stop fraudulently extracting 'extras' in the form of travel money and housing allowances, etc.

    Our own PM after taking his PM position fraudulently did not declare 'benefits' (over $50,000) such as a scholarship for his daughter that was not available to anyone else other than the PM's daughter and who was also exempted from paying any fees or charges for the course taken. The GIVER of this scholarship and added benefits, was a large DONOR to the Liberal Party and the RECIPIENT of GOVT. FUNDS. Murdoch's daughter also was one of the ONLY recipients of Govt. Funds for the arts group that she was in charge of. More corruption..... as if Murdoch didn't get enough help when Abbott sacrificed the whole of Australia's future with swapping Labor's audited $37b NBN for the utter rubbish $120++b NBN that is so slow, it is being pulled out all around the world..... why not upgrade it.... sorry, you can't because it is utter rubbish and will act to put Australia 20 years behind the rest of the world instead of 20 years in front.

    BEFORE Abbott become PM his misuse and abuse of govt. benefits was in the vicinity of $85,000 (taking himself, family and friends to AFL, Aust. Open, weddings - hiring private jets to these and many other PRIVATE events and functions) and he wasn't even on the bones of his a*se, he had plenty and STILL chose to rip off Australia..... you see he thought it was his right! His fraud did not arise until just before he became PM and as soon as he did, it was referred to in-house examination and disappeared. Although he was FORCED to repay money for the wedding incident. Compare this to Slipper who had crossed Abbott.... he used $954 on taxi fares to wineries ..... Slipper's case was anonymously (joke joke) reported to the Federal Police and taken to court twice before Abbott became PM. First court threw it out, the second refused to pass judgement and then Abbott became PM and he then force a new court hearing and got a conviction in 2014 which was overturned in an appeal in 2015.

    Now mick, how about talking about these greedy, greedy abuses by our own PM who thinks he is ENTITLED to privileges BEFORE you start putting down those that are on the bones of their a*ses that abuse the system, who in effect are an abnormality and not the rule.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:48pm
    Mick - for the last time - we are ALL taxpayers.... there's no special group of "I Pay income tax, so I run the show".... everybody pays tax.. the guy at the boozer sloshing down his pensions pays tax with every schooner.... his choice...
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    7:49am
    Doug and Mussitate, you need to get out of your comfort zone and have a look around. You could learn something.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:58am
    Mussitate
    Good to see you in this FIGHT!
    Frank -- Doug and Mussitate ARE
    Sum1
    8th Jun 2015
    10:59am
    Sorry. My conscience has toured this territory numerous times. Like most of you, I have paid taxes and stumped up the loot to charities to help the "forever needy".The wide-eyed boy-child in welfare housing with one parent we saved, 20 years or so ago, is now a low IQ drug induced moron, demanding his rights and siring children whenever the whim takes him and blaming the world because he is uneducated, poor and left behind. There is no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory and dysfunctional economic, social and sexual system but I do not know what it is. There is, on the other hand, every reason not to write a post like this. It will win no friends and will provoke the self-righteous wrath of, well, the self-righteous hand wringing, letter writing wrathful individuals; a species which never fails to contaminate almost every debate in Australian life with its sneers and its moral superiority. We have promoted a lifestyle of entitlement without expectation...without respect...The benefits of a welfare card are obvious to any reasonable thinking person.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    11:12am
    The ''benefits'' are an illusion, Sum1. Anyone who understands addiction of any kind knows that a welfare card won't help, but will exacerbate the situation and drive crime and domestic violence up. Addicts need to feel empowered and treated with respect, or they simply give up. They need guidance and support, education, and, above all else, help to develop self-respect. This proposal cheats them of all of that and grinds them down to a level that will discourage any effort to reform. The obvious last resort is to steal and cheat to get the fix they need, and believe me, they will!
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:49am
    You are very perceptive Sum1 and much of what you say is spot on.
    Sadly the do gooders, who are happy to destroy our way of life so that their illogical conscience can feel good, are with us always.....led by Sarah Hanson-Young one might think.
    And you wonder why anybody would want to be a politician.
    Misty
    8th Jun 2015
    11:58am
    Next thing will be compulsory Castration and Hysterectomies of men and women to stop them siring and giving birth to more welfare recipients Sumi, where does it end?.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:34pm
    Misty: welfare ending for some. Welfare is not available in every country and perhaps the wider family, what exists of it in this country, needs to take a lot more responsibility.
    Its all too easy to sweep the problem under the carpet, but something needs to happen other than the ongoing 'talk' circle where the do gooders claim nothing works and hold up every attempt to fix a festering issue which needs to be properly addressed.
    Sum1
    8th Jun 2015
    12:48pm
    The political intelligence of the bulk of the Australian voting public is heading to absolute zero, Labor and the Greens depend directly on that.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:49pm
    So does the current government Sum1. Otherwise it would not have been elected.
    That you Frank?
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    2:45pm
    Pity ''welfare'' would end for the real leaners who are stuffing up this country. Let's give all the retired politicians a ''basics card'', shall we?
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:03pm
    Rainey - you have my vote....
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:20pm
    Misty,
    It's here
    Fluoridation of the drinking water
    Toxins in our food
    Chem Trails
    Vaccination
    etc., etc., etc.,
    May we're not infertile but the younger generation might just be "To Nackerred & to Ill" to do any more than "Hang in front of the Idiot box" and be continuously (re)programmed!
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    8:04am
    Sum1 it's time someone said that. Good for you. There has to be a way of getting equal rights for your Mr Example without reducing the living standard and equal rights of people footing the bill and raising the benchmark.
    The way I see it is.....why not encourage more people to raise their standard rather than drag those down to a lower level. If ever we were facing "the greatest moral dilemma of our generation" it could be now and it could be at the ballot box.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    8:10am
    Frank,
    YES.Yes,YES - I'm so glad I - for once - can agree with you.
    We are facing the "Greatest dilemma of our generation"
    So start seeing gambling & other addictions as an illness and facilitate "treatment rather than" a SLEDGE HAMMER attempt at controlling it and creating a Society that will be MUCH worse off for it!!!

    8th Jun 2015
    11:02am
    I don't agree with the idea. I believe it will increase crime rates. It is a well-known fact that alcoholics and drug addicts will go to great lengths to obtain ''a fix'''. They will buy food and then sell it. They will sell furniture and clothing. They will beat family out of frustration because they can't get the fix they need. I've witnessed, first hand, a drug addict selling furniture and her children's clothing to get cash. I witnessed Aboriginals in NT paying people to buy grog for them, and I saw people compelled to give in reluctantly because they feared assault if they didn't. The proposer and supporters of the idea obviously have no concept of how addiction operates.

    The idea is also demeaning to people who are capable of making sensible choices most of the time, and will discourage efforts to reform by lowering self-esteem and leaving people feeling distrusted and lacking the right to implement their own remedies. There are far better ways to target the problem.

    I also fear that this sets a dangerous precedent and ultimately the idea might be extended to the genuinely unemployed, sick, disabled, and even elderly.

    We need to focus on education and constructive help for people who have given in to the temptation to drink, gamble or take drugs. It should be obvious that they have problems and need help. They need to guidance and empowerment, not restrictions and put-downs. One solution I saw work well some years ago was to sit down with them in their sober moments and discuss their financial problems and help them draw a budget, then have them VOLUNTARILY sign an agreement to transfer $X from their benefit cheque each fortnight into a special ''bills'' account that they couldn't touch. They then present all electricity, gas, registration, rent bills etc. to the manager of the account for automatic payment, and the balance in the account (minus a startup allowance for the following year) is paid to the account holder as a Christmas bonus each year. The result of this was startling. People felt empowered by it. The Christmas money gave them a sense of achievement and delight, and the capacity to buy nice gifts for loved ones gave them incentive to try harder to stick to a budget and fight their addiction.

    The ''carrot'' ALWAYS works better than the stick for alcoholics and addicts. Support organizations recognize that addicts need respect, guidance, and support - not punishment or demeaning restrictions.

    Sadly, it's an idea that will appeal to the ill-informed. It's superficially attractive, but it's fundamentally flawed and doomed to fail. And it will be expensive to implement.
    Sen.Cit.90
    8th Jun 2015
    11:14am
    Rainey; I think you have outlined the situation very well
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    11:59am
    Rainey: I think that what you are saying is that pension benefits should keep heading lower so that we can pump an ever increasing amount of money into a welfare system which remains totally UNACCOUNTABLE.

    Your issues one at a time:

    If there is no money to spend on grog and drugs then addicts may in time dry out. Certainly advocating paying them to do drugs is no solution at all because they will still turn to crime as drug addicts require an ever increasing supply of drugs which welfare money can never fund.

    Education, education, education? This is the catch cry of contemporary society but you are assuming that problem welfare recipients want to be educated and want to change their way of life. MAY DON'T!! I prefer a bit of RESPONSIBILITY and the big stick of controlling what addicts can spend their money on. Drugs should NEVER be an option.

    The 'carrot' is good but what do you do when that fails....as it will with many who prefer their 'rights'?

    It appears to me that your position is untenable and you offer no viable solution to a growing problem and one which has been with us for a long time now. We need a solution, not a bandaid. I applaud this initiative but understand that it will have a heap of opposition. Lets hold fire until the trial has run a while and it becomes more obvious if it is working. My understanding is that it did work in Aboriginal communities with mothers now able to buy their children food because the drunken men are no longer able to use welfare payments for grog.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    1:32pm
    Actually, Mick, it's been trialed and failed dismally, and costed at far more than it saves. It isn't a solution to anything, and it certainly won't make the welfare system more accountable - although we currently have the most accountable (and affordable) welfare system in the world. I agree we need a solution. This ISN'T IT. You simply cannot stop people buying grog or drugs or gambling by this method. There are too many ways around the restriction, and the fact that the restriction is demeaning encourages the use of those ways to sidestep it plus it creates frustration that leads to violence.

    No approach will succeed in every case. That's a given. But this method has been shown to fail AND to result in more violence and crime.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:54pm
    Easy enough - I'm a pensioner with a small job... all my bills are paid upfront out of my pension, and I spend the rest on petrol, food and then the Five P's - some piss, pokies, pussy-chasing, ponies and puppies.... as I choose.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    8:55pm
    Oh - BTW - I help support someone else by paying out of my wages for his help in house building. He gets no support from Colonel C'Link.
    tia-maria
    8th Jun 2015
    11:07am
    My personal opinion on this a excellent idea for the younger generation to trail on...........BUT our government should show respect the pensioners who worked hard paid taxes all their lives.......not to attack us.........we have earn the right to live our lives with out too many disrespect from these politicians..........who have a different set of rules for them selves
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    11:14am
    Why should our young people not be treated with respect and allowed to make choices? So, they haven't yet paid tax for a lifetime. Is that a reason to demean them and deny them a few simple pleasures? The desperate will get what they want by any means (thus driving up crime rates and violence). Those who accept the restrictions will feel disenfranchised, disrespected, and discouraged - and that can ONLY be a bad thing.
    tia-maria
    8th Jun 2015
    11:48am
    Rainey, gee mate don't treat us seniors the same as the younger generations..........as many are dole bludgers drink gamble and deal with drugs and their young families go with out...if this a better way to help the kids of the dole bludgers so may it be
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:01pm
    Agree tia-maria. This should NOT be a blanket approach but rather targeted at those who abuse payments. As I have said a number of times above only the courts should be permitted to impose this card on recipients. That way you do not catch people in the net who use entitlements as they were intended to be used.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    1:40pm
    Tia-maria, there are a minority of bludgers, drinkers, gamblers and addicts in EVERY generation - no more so in the young of today than in any other. We are being lied to about ''dole bludgers'' to hide the awful reality that there just aren't jobs for vast numbers of people. The number of ''bludgers'' is very small indeed. And nobody is going to help the families of bludgers or addicts by stopping their access to a few life pleasures. They WILL get their fix, by whatever devious means are required. Watch for the opportunists paying 50c for $1 worth of goods bought on a ''Basics Card''. It WILL happen. This is a fairy land proposal from someone who has never lived in the real world and hasn't a clue what life is like for the masses.
    tia-maria
    8th Jun 2015
    4:27pm
    Rainy............wake up mate this is a different generations to my day ........many younger people prefer to be on the dole (so we known them as dole bludgers) full stop..................Rainy many of us senior worked bloody hard paid taxes.......we were never Dole Bludgers.........I say stop the dole after 6 months and make them find work I we all did...........PS we are all entitle to ones opinion
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    6:06pm
    Tia-maria, obviously you don't pay attention to the facts. There are 800,000 unemployed people, officially, but only about 120,000 job vacancies. And anyone who works an hour a fortnight is classed as ''employed'', so the real unemployment figure is probably closer to 1.5 million, or more! It's rather arrogant and very nasty to call people ''bludgers'' because they can't win a contest against at least 14 other applicants for a job - especially given that half those strugglers probably haven't had the opportunity to acquire the skills and education required. I worked bloody hard too, and paid taxes, but I was fortunate that there were jobs available to me - and so were you. Stop condemning the less fortunate and start counting your blessings and showing gratitude.

    I knew people in my generation who preferred to be on the dole. There will always be a small number who make that choice. Perhaps you should stop to ask why. Often, they are people who have taken so many knocks that they just can't muster strength to fight anymore. They've given up. They might be so lacking in self-esteem that they can't believe anyone would ever hire them.

    All these judgmental elitists here really turn my stomach! Walk a mile in the shoes of those you condemn before you judge them. You might find it's a painful walk, and one that will change your perspective dramatically.
    tia-maria
    8th Jun 2015
    6:58pm
    Rainy...........don't blame me for the ones who wont work mate as their plenty out there............you have an attitude to say the least.cheers
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:22pm
    Rainy,

    You win this argument once again!
    Not much more I can add.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    9:00pm
    Exactly, Rainey - my grand-children will soon hit the Jobless Market..... and I would expect them to be treated with a little respect.

    Amazing - you can cite the number of unemployed and under-employed a thousand times, and the really, really low number of available jobs... and some will stil come out with the old worn out 'won't work'!

    "Creation of 200,000 jobs annually"? Most of those go to people already in jobs who transfer, leaving the really out of luck out of luck.. again!

    Government don't 'create' jobs with their policies - the net number of jobless to jobs constantly rises - yet they never take credit for 'creating joblessness' with their policies.

    Stop reading propaganda and lies.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    9:14pm
    TREBOR
    Anything else in the papers or on the TV than "Propaganda & Lies?????"
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:18am
    Oh YES!! Shows like "I married a stranger at first sight" (who GAF?) and cooking shows with dramatic music, that go on endlessly night after night when the whole deal could be resolved in one show...

    Wouldn't miss 'em for the world! Nearly caused a huge blue in the house tonight when I got off the computer after MKR finished - and there was "Married At First Sight" on.... I nearly exploded.... like polishing your teeth with an angle grinder... night after night...... and then to hear complaints of no more than three football matches over two nights?

    THEM'S fighting words!
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:33am
    TREBOR
    That's why I don't turn on the Idiot Box and don't read papers.

    The WHOLE lies are easy to pick & Weed Out.
    The problem is with the 1/2 truths because they - to a certain extend - make sense.
    I just watch the alternative news channels and get details that are MUCH MORE LIKELY to represent reality!!
    buby
    12th Jun 2015
    2:05pm
    and ya know what rainey, when i was connected to centrelink, even though i worked but only as a casual, even then, i was made to STOP my Job, and do a course, before i was only a casual, then after finishing my course i had a stroke, Lost my Job, then became disabled, cause i couldn't function, for ages and ages......but anyway thats just one story, i wanted to work. Its weird now they would pay somebody to find me a job, probably one i didn't like. and perhaps I didn't want to give me a bloody card to survive on.....I probably could, as i don't drink, don't smoke....Hell i got a halo on me head, but i'm sure i could find a way to crack it?> only sorry don't do drugs either.......But boring i'm not......Gee the worlds gone to pot
    Adrianus
    12th Jun 2015
    2:24pm
    Rainey, you are starting to sound an awful lot like Sarah Hanson Young. It is you Sarah isn't it? I knew it!! I think you and mick should spend a week together and leave us poor folk to contemplate our misery.
    Janus
    8th Jun 2015
    11:24am
    There are some cases where people simply cannot manage their money, where it might be a small benefit. It must be on a case by case basis, based on carefull individual assessment.

    Just because you need welfare, doesn't mean you are a dole bludger or a drug addict or violent. Some people simply cannot work effectively or efficiently, for whatever reason, but might contribute in other ways. Some people live in an area of high unemployment, but own their home and can't move. Do we have to throw them all on the scrapheap because they don't fit some some bigot's attitude, a politician's ideal, or some economist's pseudologic?
    ray from Bondi
    8th Jun 2015
    3:12pm
    yep, most people except those unemployed do not seem to know that there is only one job for 10 unemployed, and that is the way the neolibs want it as it forces wages ever downward, so those saying "get a Job" have no idea, I hope one day when they are over 45 they have to look for work, then it will be the hand out very quickly looking for help.
    ray from Bondi
    8th Jun 2015
    3:12pm
    yep, most people except those unemployed do not seem to know that there is only one job for 10 unemployed, and that is the way the neolibs want it as it forces wages ever downward, so those saying "get a Job" have no idea, I hope one day when they are over 45 they have to look for work, then it will be the hand out very quickly looking for help.
    CindyLou
    8th Jun 2015
    11:26am
    We are almost a cashless society now so I don't see the big problem...tough luck if people have to buy food instead of cigarettes or alcohol. The only exception I would make is to aged pensioners as I believe they deserve the right to spend their allowance as they choose.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    9:03pm
    A cashless economy and a class-less society was the aim - success on both fronts!!

    Look at the class of those currently running the show in all areas.... jumped-up peasants with grasping dirty paws.... the damned lot of them...
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    9:20pm
    CindyLou
    Who will get Access to the Cash available on those cards???
    The Big businesses & Corporations.
    If you were making a living with a "Market Stall" on a Sunday Morning, How would you fare to get some of this money even if you were selling organic "Fruit & Veg"????
    How much are the BANKSTERS Going to "Skim Off" from YOU the Consumer???

    How many "Small Business" will it Send BUST despite Joe & Tony giving them some of OUR money at the moment???
    What about those who are (god forbid) making a "Little Bit extra" on the side just to "make ends meet??".
    The "Rabbit Hole" is a lot deeper than appears "on the Surface".
    yippie
    8th Jun 2015
    11:31am
    What a load of crap this card would be .All you do with the card go to the Butchers load up your trolly with meat paid for with the famous card & take the meat over to the nearest pub (Friday night especially for the meat raffles) sell them the meat or to the patrons (half stung)leave & bob's your uncle we have a load of cash & the tax man misses out.This used to happen in the sixty & seventies when food vouchers used to be issued.Nothing has changed except the degree of brain power with in our Govt.(it appears to be less).You can use this system of changing the cards value for any product you require to make cash.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:03pm
    Certainly possible. Lets wait and see. Maybe Meals on Wheels then needs to be rolled out. I'd like to see them offload this for cash.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:23pm
    No Mick,

    This IS Predictable.
    Let's JUST NOT go THERE!!!
    dougie
    9th Jun 2015
    8:36am
    If the penalty is big enough it will certainly reduce the number of sly groggers swapping grog for groceries or cash. Twiggy Forrest probably has more knowledge of the Aboriginal culture than all contributors put together. He has lived worked and been a part of their life and is just trying to do something to help the families. Others do not seem to have any ideas other than "let them starve" or "throw more cash at them."
    Twiggy at least wants to try to give them the most important thing in life "pride in themselves."
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    9:06am
    dougie
    Pride is generated by Freedom & Dignified independence.
    NOT VIA THE MECHANISM OF CONTROL.
    Not withstanding these remarks: "I hear you".
    PRIDE is VERY IMPORTANT!
    And yes, I agree, the Aboriginal People are "Getting the rough end of the stick".
    Young Simmo
    8th Jun 2015
    11:33am
    I can see it now, all the people in Alice Springs, Katherine and Fitzroy Crossing, etc, etc, running around in Lamborghinis.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    2:28pm
    Spot on Young Simmo.

    I have been to Fitzroy Crossing, Wilcannia and lived in the NT for over 20 years and have seen firshnad the drinking problem.

    People who have never visited these places have no darn idea how bad it is. Here is a link which gives an insight into how bad it is in Wilcannia. A google search will be most enlightening.

    Whether this card will work or not I don't know but people always find a way around things and this will be no different...goods will be traded for money to buy grog, cigarettes and to gamble.

    If people want to drink/drug themselves to death there is little anyone can do about it.

    No one has the answer and billions have been thrown at the problem over many years without very much success.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    5:16pm
    Yeah - but what else can people do there?
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    10:43am
    I went to a bottle shop in Katherine. There were drunks lying over the footpath shouting what I thought was abuse. Occasionally I like to buy cask wine, it's of reasonable quality and has less tax than bottle wine. I couldn't buy 2 because they had a limit of 1 per person. As I was leaving an Aboriginal man staggered to the staff and yelled "you see, it's not just us black fellows who get on the grog, it's the white trash too!" I was dressed in my usual casual gear but I had been on the road for a few months and grown a beard, but I thought I looked ok, well, sober at least. About 30 metres away I could see 4 uniformed police carrying what appeared to be M16's or AR15's. I would think the sight to be a sobering pause in this argument too Radish.
    Young Simmo
    9th Jun 2015
    2:16pm
    Yeh Frank, Katherine is a good place, just be careful if you go to Coles at 8am, that you don't trip over the people sleeping on the lawn at the road side. We overnighted at the caravan park in Willcania, we were the only van in the park and a couple of darkie kids tried to sell us a couple of 6 inch long River Perch, also a visit to the local Supermart was an experience we still remember 20 years latter.
    There are a lot of people commenting in here, that have no idea what is outside their own town boundries. I wont use that word ignorance as I am in a KIND MOOD.
    suz56
    8th Jun 2015
    11:37am
    My concern is how is that parent going to pay schools for any excursions for their kids.. being on an extremely low income that the pensions are how will one go buy those cheap items of clothing or toys for their family from garage sales, facebook sites or cheap fruit and veg from the weekend markets... There will never be a totally cashless society so why demand people on pensions are reduced to a card that can only be used where there is eftpos??..Yes we need to stop people from wasting their pensions on drugs.. not all people on pensions are drug users or alcoholics and to be labelled such just because you are on a pension is an insult and slap in the face to an already humiliated pensioner...I paid taxes all my life nearly $30,000 each year and to get a pittance and go through all the humiliating demands from centrelink when I became disabled was just plain disgusting... there has to be a different way to tackle the drug and alcohol problem not just for pensioners but for all society....Cashless will never work
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    11:46am
    No problem with school excursion as most schools now take credit card payments and some even direct debits. It's not difficult to get card processing for weekend markets and garage sales either and in fact I know of people who have done a lot better with their garage sales by having them available.

    Cashless will never work for only one reason people are using cash to hide their income.
    suz56
    8th Jun 2015
    12:04pm
    I do not know where you live Bonny .. but where I live a lot of our buying is done with cash... I buy my honey local..cash... I buy my eggs local...cash... I buy my fruit and veg from the roadside..... cash.. I buy second hand clothes from garage sales and facecebook.... all cash.. Most pensioners do not have a credit card You try getting one when you are on the pension earning less than $16,000 per year I tried nearly 10 different banks even Woolworths....Nope I could not get one.. I have never ever been to a stall at weekend markets that has eftpos.... Cashless will never work for many reasons... If I was given a cashless card I would have to shop for everything food wise from a supermarket and pay full price..I am trying to budget and every item I buy cheap means I need cash
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:05pm
    Always grey areas. So how would the same parents have paid these when the payments were spent on grog?
    The reality is that the people we are talking about NEVER pay school fees of any sort and are carried by the school. When has it been otherwise.
    suz56
    8th Jun 2015
    12:07pm
    Also I do not do drugs I do not drink and I do not do the pokies so why should I be penalised for those that do?? So sick and tired of people putting us all in the same basket ...walk a week in my shoes ...
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    12:31pm
    Every item you buy from markets etc with cash is not contributing to your future pension payments either. Is that fair? When the card is bought in it won't be long before these so called cheap places to buy stuff will be forced to go cashless and in doing so will help pay for your future pension payments too.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:35pm
    You shouldn't be suz56. Only problem families should be targeted.
    downunder
    8th Jun 2015
    11:40am
    I think it is a good idea, properly trialed - why not- but pls don't make it another ad-hoc decision
    Young Simmo
    8th Jun 2015
    11:42am
    All people on Gov't handouts are not spending their own money, they are spending government money, so why shouldn't the Gov't set the rules.
    When somebody comes to my house they do it my way, when I go to somebody else's house I do it their way. Pretty simple really.
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    11:57am
    I agree.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:07pm
    You are missing the point. Read all of the above posts. This card is being trialled but it should never apply to all and it is my hope that governments do not force it on to people who do the right thing. Certainly not your mates in ALice Springs in their Lamborghinis.
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    12:18pm
    No not missing the point the card should replace all welfare payments and stop all those abusing the system including those using the cashless economy so that they hide their income and assets. It's not just the ones which spend the money on the vices of life that are hurting the economy.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:37pm
    What does the bible say about the devil: his number will be 666? Keep checking the back of your card Bonny. We are getting there.
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    1:25pm
    666 is my favorite number. OK I know the bible is the biggest selling book of fiction in the world and for the believers 666 is the devils number. However I have nothing to fear from the devil myself so it's just not a concern. The future of our country is and big changes need to be made. Welfare card is a good one to start with and then the house needs to be included in the pensioner assets test.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    2:44pm
    Pray you ever fall on hard times Bonny. It can happen to anyone, you know! It's obvious you are blind to the difficulties some people have to try to overcome, and heartless as well. Sad.
    survivor
    8th Jun 2015
    8:56pm
    IT may well start with those experiencing problems, but down the track it will then be deemed easier for everyone to get paid this way. Already with the so called basics card businesses tendered for places where it could be used. There goes freedom of choice of where i can shop. Will it be woolies Coles or aldi that gets the tender. Wake Up it is a dangerous precedent to set. The few who abuse the system will still find a way no matter what happens and it will once again be the innocent who suffer
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    9:07pm
    Totally wrong, Young Simmo. This is OUR house and we allow the government to live in it - and very well, too, might I add!

    Since we've all paid the rent for our social security, it is an inalienable right... not the plaything of ideologues in government at any given time....

    They can go find their necessary elsewhere.. plenty out there to be found, and plenty of good solid leads from this forum...

    Otherwise they can leave our house and take their ideology with them....

    Throw the baggage OUT!
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    9:11pm
    TREBOR
    Them's Fighting Words
    I hope others are understanding them and "lining Up"
    I certainly am!!!!!!
    NOW OR NEVER - the LAST CHANCE !?!?!?!?
    Otherwise - DECEND into SLAVERY !!!
    The B's keep pushing at us from EVERY ANGLE and have been since they CAME TO POWER.
    Are they trying to find our weak spots and "Break Through"?
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:13am
    Patriot - they've been doing it from both 'sides' since the start of the 'feminist revolution' - that first foot in the door.... and the immediate punishing of men for being too 'pushy' etc in such arenas as the public service, leading to 70%+ women public servants now and you can see the results in the teaching outcomes etc.... and in the supine nature of a public service 'owned' by those who have no need to perform to get ahead and those who will not get ahead no matter how they perform.....

    Bad Boys, Bad Boys ('n Girls) - Ain't nobody gonna come for you...
    Misty
    8th Jun 2015
    11:46am
    Bonny I worked until 64 and paid my due tax all those year and I spend my part pension wisely, ( I do have a small super annuity as I did not take it in a lump sum and spend it on holidays etc as some others have done ) I for one do not want to see all welfare recipients given this card. Triall it by all means in places and communities where the Govt thinks it will work and see how things pan out.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:08pm
    Me neither. It needs to be targeted at specific recipients. Not too hard.
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    12:24pm
    I for one hardly ever use cash now so I can't see a problem with using such a card. I don't drink, smoke or gamble either so maybe that's why I don't need cash any more.
    Misty
    9th Jun 2015
    12:01am
    Bonny I don't like cards of any sort, I have 2 credit cards that I keep for emergencies only but I prefer to use cash when I can, each to his own, just because you prefer card only doesn't mean everyone else has to.
    Young Simmo
    9th Jun 2015
    12:13am
    Yes you can be smart or stupid with credit cards. At age 62 in 2002 we went on the internet and wanted a visa card. We hadn't had a credit card for about 20 years before that. We took out a $500 limit Visa and pay it off every pension day and haven't payed a cent in interest, just the annual fee, in 15 years. If we want to use it to buy a washing machine or fridge etc, we just put the extra $1,000 or so in to jack it up. That way we still get the free kettles and toasters etc from the awards.
    EASY REALLY.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:27am
    Young Simmo
    Go to your bank and suggest that you might have to cancel your card because you cannot afford it!
    They the, will offer NO ANNUAL FEE just to keep your card going!
    Misty
    9th Jun 2015
    12:57pm
    Really Patriot?, and which bank would that be?
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    1:20pm
    Misty
    ANZ offered me a "Fee Free" card when I rang to cancel ( & did) my existing one with them.
    My current WestPac VISA also has NOT got an annual fee!

    8th Jun 2015
    11:56am
    Leon, I'm heartened that you put disadvantaged between quotation marks, as we all know this is one of the biggest charades in this country - other than people pretending to be honest, sincere, hard-working, truly interested politicians. So many of these so-called advantaged are so because they choose to be because of laziness, upbringing, colour, nationality, race, or, and primarily, government's laissez faire, lackadaisical attitude to making social welfare benefit requirements more stringent. This, together with the government's fear of "offending" certain social or racial strata and losing votes accordingly, keeps this ever-increasing sector of the "voluntary unemployed" in the dole queues. This is a situation which feeds on itself and passes this "I'm entitled" attitude to family members and their offspring for generations. Until the government has the "balls" to take a realistic stance on combatting this issue things will not change and the "hand out with palm up" mentality of those who think they should get something for doing nothing will only worsen.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:11pm
    You've got my vote Eddie. This pretty well tells the story but it will offend some who lives with this 'rights' word firmly lodged in their mind whilst the 'responsibility' word is nowhere to be seen. I often wonder how some people get to think like that.
    Misty
    8th Jun 2015
    12:18pm
    What about Pollies like Joe Hockey getting x amount of $'s Living away from Home Allowance. (Tax Payer's Money ) and then living in his wife's house, probably an investment house, this is where Tax Payer's hard earned dollars can be saved too don't always pick on the most vulnerable with the inability to fight back.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    4:35pm
    Mick, I think this is a trait, so to speak, handed down by parents to their children either actively through conversation or passively by their actions and attitudes in everyday life. "Gimme, gimme" becomes ingrained in their daily vernacular, unemployment is the norm, and and it becomes their "right" to be appeased by the government because "it's always been that way". Not until the handouts stop and people made to pull their weight by the government will we see steps in the right and "fair to ALL" direction. Unfortunately, mate, I don't think our subsidising of the deadbeats will lessen during our lifetimes, or ever, unless we have politicians with brains, hearts, and spines, and this is very doubtful.
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:05pm
    Could it be as simple as those generations live in an area where there is no work, and because there is no work, they are viewed as unemployable bums?

    There aer entire suburbs in Greater Sydney like that.
    pate
    8th Jun 2015
    11:56am
    How ridiculous it is ok to spend the money at Macca's on so called food but don't dare ask for anything with alcahol in it, real good for the kid's health I dare say.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:14pm
    Better at Maccas than Dan Murphy...and then coming home and assaulting the family, or worse.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    9:11pm
    What's wrong with Dan Murphys? As a Vet I drink every night and the old girl hasn't been slugged yet.....

    Generalising.. generalising...
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    9:22pm
    TREBOR
    Repeat one or two incidents "over & over" and we ALL become tainted with it.
    Ancient & Old tactics. Very effective though as we see!
    Ruby
    8th Jun 2015
    12:00pm
    Grounds good. The only problem is that in other countries where this is done. Drug dealers take the cards and force the users to give their purchases to pay for drugs and other debts
    ray from Bondi
    8th Jun 2015
    3:06pm
    and that is exactly what will happen the disadvantaged and there are some heartless people commenting on this who have no idea at all, I am sure they are living in comfort. the crims will take advantage of it, that is what they do, and the addicts will only receive a small token of the real value.
    Ruby
    8th Jun 2015
    12:00pm
    Grounds good. The only problem is that in other countries where this is done. Drug dealers take the cards and force the users to give their purchases to pay for drugs and other debts
    Lookfar
    8th Jun 2015
    12:02pm
    I can see the benefit only for those on Newstart, that is specifically for helping a person get a job, whether by starting their own business or by finding employment helping someone else, but whether Grandpa wants to drink himself to death or not is nobody else's business, in fact he will probably die earlier so save Tax payer's money.
    There are many risk taking activities, - e.g. people die bushwalking all the time, should pensioners lose their right to catch a bus because they might go to a place where they can go Bushwalking? Should they be forbidden buying Sugar in any form in case they make home brew with it? It is a pandora's box we would be better to leave closed.
    particolor
    13th Jun 2015
    7:37pm
    Thank for the Home Brew Tip !! :-) :-)
    Young Simmo
    8th Jun 2015
    12:04pm
    Try this one on.
    I live in one of these outback towns and I happen to be friends with the local shop owner.
    I give him my shopping list and he rings up all the vegies tinned food and washing powder etc.
    It comes to $105.23. He gives me a 50 dollar note to go to the bottle shop, and he has a 50 dollar note to go to the bookie shop.
    No, don't believe that, I was waffling.
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    12:08pm
    I could just stand outside Woolies too and offer to pay for someone's groceries with my card for some cash too. It too is open to abuse but there is another step to be made to get the cash which is the real problem.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:17pm
    Always around any rule Young Simmo. But your take at the very least gets a lot less cash into grog. And if all else fails put addicts on Meals on Wheels.
    I guess it is hard to protect some folk from their 'rights'.
    minnie
    8th Jun 2015
    12:15pm
    I'm totally opposed to this card, how dare Andrew Forrest have such sway in our Parliament, who's running the country?

    Everywhere this card has already been trialled has found it was more than difficult for the person to access needed items. So they start with alcohol and tobacco (last time I knew drugs were illegal so a card can only access legal drugs or can it?) what next pet food?

    What about Farmers Markets and Farmgate for cheaper better quality produce, small local stores and other places like op shops etc. These places will not be accessible with these cards it's for big business to get more. What about petrol, will the small independent servo be able to access the card so you can get petrol?

    Where people want to buy drugs etc they will swap for money to be able to, this doesn't stop domestic violence it puts more pressure on women to come up with the goods with the money they have and when their abusive husband/partner doesn't get his smokes, her and the kids will cop it.

    I can see a rise in crime as well. This government couldn't give two hoots about helping the poorest in our society nor assisting to break the cycle of domestic violence, they are interested in big business getting as much as possible and breaking the small producers.
    LiveItUp
    8th Jun 2015
    12:34pm
    You have to ask yourself why such businesses only use cash. The answer lies in the fact that people can get cash to buy things. When the card becomes available it won't take these businesses long to accommodate it too.
    Adrianus
    8th Jun 2015
    12:32pm
    What doesn't make sense is parents spending what little income they get on alcohol while the kids are forced to go to the neighbours for a meal.
    On a recent trip through NT, I was told of a widow receiving $9k to bury her husband. She spent the money, mostly on booze while her husband lay iced in the morgue for weeks waiting for a burial. A card would have seen the poor man buried and in the usual few days, avoiding the drunken arguments that went on for weeks.
    I agree with Sally- anne Byrne on this. Rather than introduce the concept to a whole community the system could be targeted at individuals who have a chronic problem.
    Lookfar
    8th Jun 2015
    12:38pm
    I agree with Frank only if an independent person was the decision maker and the person getting the limited card was given some sort of hearing, or even better it could be an extra option for those coming before the courts on alcohol related problems - as they often do.
    Lookfar
    8th Jun 2015
    12:38pm
    I agree with Frank only if an independent person was the decision maker and the person getting the limited card was given some sort of hearing, or even better it could be an extra option for those coming before the courts on alcohol related problems - as they often do.
    Batara
    8th Jun 2015
    12:45pm
    And just who is it that identifies the individuals who have a chronic problem Frank? Would that be the courts or a bureaucrat or perhaps a minister - there's an idea - Peter Dutton will have the experience of taking away the citizenship of terrorists so he would be ready to take on this job. However, it probably falls into the bailiwick of former Monster of Manus turned social services luvvy, Scotty.
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:54pm
    Sorry you cannot agree with me Frank but this is what I have been saying above.

    Batara: the courts need to assign this card. Not any one individual who has a vested interest. Certainly not somebody like Dutton.
    Your post is more a vindictive rant than a discussion of a solution. Sorry.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    2:53pm
    Mick, the courts took 92,000 children from good but poverty-stricken homes and put them in institutions where they were criminally abused and deprived, and they grew up seriously damaged as a result. That's WHITE children. Stolen Aboriginals were in addition to that number, and equally often taken for little or no good cause, but because someone assume superiority and greater capacity to determine what was right and good for someone else's children.

    The courts have frequently convicted innocent people of crimes and have let real criminals go free to cause serious harm.

    You trust the courts to judge people? Dream on!
    Adrianus
    8th Jun 2015
    9:56pm
    Batara are you seriously suggesting that the individuals with a chronic social disorder, who should get a card are hard to recognise??? Goodness me!!! You don't have to parrot Bill Shorten. Think like an adult. You too Rainey.
    Adrianus
    8th Jun 2015
    10:00pm
    mick, your first sentence makes no sense? If you said the exact same thing then I agree with you and you agree with me. But why be so disagreeable about it?
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:08am
    Trust the courts? I run Australia's Wrongfully Convicted (amongst other things), and I estimate the rate of Wrongful Conviction at around 50%.

    When the very vast majority of 'convictions' are made on the basis of verbal evidence alone without substantial corroboration - you open the way to convictions that are both Wrongful and False... the difference being that False is a calculated act, and I've drawn the difference from Wrongul per se.

    Then we have the looming spectre of 'created criminals' - the people who drive over the lowest PCA rate in the world - the DV 'order' breakers (first you whack a person with an order based on nothing of substance, then you punish them as a 'criminal' for not upholding it by the same standard - it's called Convicting The Innocent As A Matter Of Policy) - the firearms owner with licence.... there are many such at this time.
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    1:15pm
    Interesting TREBOR! I didn't realise it was that high? Are you saying that facing a court are people who are mostly innocent? Not everyone who faces the courts is convicted so therefor if assay 100 people face the court and say 80 are convicted, you are saying that 40 are innocent? Therefor of the 100 court attendees 60 are innocent or are the courts letting some guilty perpetrators off as well? Can you just run that by me again please?
    ray from Bondi
    8th Jun 2015
    12:33pm
    it wont work, the despicable whom prey on the disadvantaged will get around it and supply whatever drug the poor are addicted too at a price. there will always be corrupt people who will only see the dollars
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:55pm
    So there's a real solution ray.
    The card may not be a panacea but it is a start. Do nothing and you just get a growth in the problem.
    Hillbillypete
    8th Jun 2015
    12:48pm
    ROBBO IS A WANKER FULL TERM, he is just sitting back and looking at all the comments, must be nice to be rich ROBBO! how about giving me $100.000 so we can get on with our life before its to late!
    MICK
    8th Jun 2015
    12:57pm
    Need a facelift first methinks....and then get on with life. But stay off the drugs in future....chuckle, chuckle.....
    Sum1
    8th Jun 2015
    5:11pm
    Hillbilly...I was very lucky early in life as I found a full proof method of making money...it was called work. and it worked every time.
    Misty
    8th Jun 2015
    6:14pm
    They were the good times Sum 1 but the work has dried up unfortunately, why don't all you people here advocating, as well as the govt, that these welfare recipients find work when it is non existant in a lot of places and very scarce in others, THE JOBS ARE JUST NOT THERE ANY MORE and with new technology becoming scarcer every day.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    6:18pm
    And now, Sum1, you who are so ''holier than thou'', condemn people because jobs aren't as easy to find today, and some people can't secure the opportunities you were lucky enough to enjoy. I worked hard too, but I'm not so arrogant as to assume that when there are well over 1 million people needing jobs and only 120,000 to go around, those who miss out are ''bludgers'' or deserving of condemnation.

    Maybe you could suggest a method to improve the economy so that jobs are available, instead of supporting the idea of persecuting the victims of our social failure? Maybe we could start by reducing the wasteful practices of indulging the rich with obscene tax breaks and letting the likes of Forrest import cheap foreign labor, instead of attacking those who are hurt by these policies?
    Hillbillypete
    9th Jun 2015
    7:44am
    Sum1, you would have NO idea what a person has done in life or how they are trying to live today, you also must have a pocket full of money! I HAVE BEEN WORKING SINCE THE AGE OF 14 I AM NOW RETIRED HAVE A MORTGAGE LOOKING AFTER A SICK WIFE, LOOKING AFTER A 16 YEAR OLD GRANDCHILD THAT THE PARENTS DON'T WONT TO KNOW ANYMORE AND I DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY AND CENTRELINK WILL NOT HELP, YOU COME AND STEP IN MY SHOES AND SEE HOW YOU GO! I DON’T DRINK OR SMOKE OR GAMBLE!
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:10pm
    I'm astounded that you receive no help Pete.. something wrong there. I'm in a very similar situation with mortgage, sick DSO (n grand-kid), and bearing the costs of house building as well, though pension and my small job work out fine.

    There must be something - you are talking to the wrong flunkey. Go talk to Colonel C'Link again and if they won;t come to the party - go higher.
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:12pm
    You should get something for caring for the grand-kid - I'm in the same situation re caring for the DSO, and as far as I know there is no extra top-up for that burden - which can be extreme at times.

    Pensioner carers are the cheapest in the land......
    Hillbillypete
    9th Jun 2015
    5:54pm
    Trebor, have been trying to get Family tax benefit since February and they would not talk to me in the office and said go on line, so I did and filled in all the forms, 1 month later I emailed them in Canberra and asked why they were not talking to me as this child needed to see a doctor and also get some teeth fixed, they rang me ( would you believe) and promised to send me some more forms as they don’t believe the boy is living with us, it’s been another 2 weeks and no form! So I sent them the information they asked for and still no response, THEY ARE A WAIST OF TIME!
    buby
    12th Jun 2015
    2:42pm
    If THAT IS the case Hbpete, i would contact your local MP and stick it to him, and put something in your local rag, complaining about it??
    Budwah
    8th Jun 2015
    12:58pm
    Before it gets imposed on the unfortunate. Maybe it should be issued to politicians and Andrew Forest to see how it could work.
    Just because a person is on welfare is not a prerequisite for them being violent, drunk etc. So called Middle class and Wealthy people can be worse in the way they treat their children, wives and others. But there is no talk of imposing spending restrictions on them.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    2:53pm
    Hear hear!
    Sum1
    8th Jun 2015
    5:14pm
    Budwah...right on ...it is the middle class and the wealthy people who are causing all of societies problems..keep up those well balanced and insightful posts. Luvem.
    Adrianus
    8th Jun 2015
    5:45pm
    I would imagine Forrest has had plenty of time to consider the challenges faced by those in remote communities as many would be employees. It would not benefit him in any way to pay well only to see that money destroy families.
    I like the work he and his wife Nicola have done to help free many people from slavery. He is one of the good guys.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:28pm
    Budwah
    Now there's an idea
    Willing "Guinea Pigs" they'll be I bet!?!?!?!
    vckkpts
    8th Jun 2015
    1:05pm
    You don't honestly think the real culprits of drug and alcohol and violence abuse are not going to continue in black market transactions as the money they get on welfare is a joke anyway..... helloooooooooo Whatever the govt does will be a bandaid method. As in most cases. Reality check..
    vckkpts
    8th Jun 2015
    1:05pm
    You don't honestly think the real culprits of drug and alcohol and violence abuse are not going to continue in black market transactions as the money they get on welfare is a joke anyway..... helloooooooooo Whatever the govt does will be a bandaid method. As in most cases. Reality check..
    Snowwhite
    8th Jun 2015
    1:20pm
    It's one of the worst ideas this neoliberal Govt has come up with yet!! Particularly as the idea comes from a billionaire who wouldn't have a clue how disadvantaged and indigenous famines have to cope. Do they really believe that they will stop or reduce the incidence of child abuse and domestic violence? Abuse happens at all levels of society both rich and poor. To target the disadvantaged will only marginalise them further and lower their self esteem that's if it can get any lower. Everyone should get out of their ivory towers and wake up and realise these people need help and education and better housing. Try supplying a few of these services first before going for the jugular!! If the current Federal Govt was more interested in helping lower income people they might have a chance. Instead the Feds are cutting every program to help the disadvantaged and indigenous communities. The Govt refuses to force Corporations to pay their fair share of tax and continues to give fuel subsidies to their mining billionaire friends. Please explain how that is fair.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:29pm
    So right !
    Snowwhite
    8th Jun 2015
    1:23pm
    Sorry about the typo error. It should read families not famines!!
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    11:41pm
    You mean there's a difference these days?

    Just poking at a very real weeping sore on society....
    rtrish
    8th Jun 2015
    1:27pm
    Not all people of welfare should get one. many people are frugal and manage their money well. I don't see how the card will reduce domestic violence and child abuse, which is not all due to alcohol. It might be slightly more likely that purchases can be made of food and medications instead of gambling, drinks and smokes. But those who are determined to get alcohol and drugs are getting to get them by criminal activity.
    Priscilla
    8th Jun 2015
    2:00pm
    It is the Liberal government who decided to make taxpayers fund pensions when in 1952 they used pensions funds for their own needs. If they had left the pension fund alone we would have trillions in our super fund the same as in the UK and taxpayers would not be paying for this! NO TO CARDS!!
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    11:43pm
    Can you link me to that, Priscilla? Every bit of information on this and relevant issues is another nail in the coffin of 'government' in this country.

    We really need to get rid of the current lot and get some people in who actually know how to do things... they're called 'old' people.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:14am
    TREBOR
    OLD - NO ACADEMICS - you mean????
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:15pm
    Yeah - pretty much - trained social science monkeys really have never grasped an issue firmly with the iron hand of reality... too lost in theory and statistics.

    Just sensible people - many of them here. Would make a change.

    The Government Of Elders.. the Senate..-a Band of SENior Statespeople.... who know the ropes.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    1:06pm
    TREBOR
    I'm sure my local Rep here would be delighted with your excellent plan!
    He - like the rest of them - thinks that at 10: Hrs of the night of election day the newly elected government gets a cheque book full of signed cheques to last them for the next 3 years.
    No sense of Accountability at all!

    8th Jun 2015
    2:17pm
    What next from the self-opinionated elite and privileged? Should we restrict investment in the stock market for those who lose money and then need a pension? We can't have people who can't make wise spending decisions putting their hand out for pensions, can we? What's the difference between wasting it on a bad investment and playing pokies or betting on racehorses? If we are going to sanctimoniously ban gambling for a pensioner, why allow it for an ''investor'' who might lose all his money and claim a pension.

    Perhaps we should block eBay and Gumtree accounts too, so Basics Card holders can't sell the stuff they buy on the Card? And how about we stop people buying cheap cars that might need ongoing maintenance, or signing up for Internet accounts that might permit them to become addicted e-buyers? What about we ban retirees from buying a house with more than 1 bedroom or valued at more than $250,000, so they don't put their hand out for pensions after sinking all their money into an expensive mansion?

    Where do we draw the line? Do we want a total ''Nanny state'', where personal freedoms just don't exist anymore. No? We just want to restrict certain excesses. So who is going to judge which excesses to restrict? If those on welfare can't buy grog, why should we allow politicians and bureaucrats to drink on expense accounts paid for by the taxpayer? Why should we give ''Twiggy'' tax concessions that he might use to buy alcohol for his family parties? Can't have the taxpayer encouraging drinking alcoholic beverages, can we? Oh, yes, it's okay if it's someone privileged who we can all pretend is more responsible than the poor down-and-out drunk who wouldn't be a drunk if someone had treated him with respect and given him a fair opportunity to be something else.

    All I hear from this Government and its supporters is how to make someone else's life less tolerable to save taxpayers' money so the privileged can be better off. Cut pensions. Cut health care. Cut education. Cut unemployment benefits. Cut child care. Cut disability payments. Cut cut cut cut cut. But as soon as someone suggests cutting obscenely generous tax benefits to the rich, they scream ''no, no, no, never.''

    We are being lied to, to convince us that our economic woes are due to welfare costs. They ARE NOT. We have the best targeted and least expensive welfare system in the world, and it's highly affordable. Our budget woes are due to over-indulgence of the rich and privileged. Thirty billion dollars in tax cuts was given by the Howard Government, and 80% of that went to the richest 10%. Without that excess, Swan would have run a surplus! We are being lied to in order to keep further enriching the rich and make the poor and middle class accept that they have accept less because ''there isn't enough to go around''. But it's all a huge hoax!

    All Forrest is proposing is to increase inequality and punish the disadvantaged for being disadvantaged. But he's doing it with a deceptive promise to the privileged that it's going to be a good thing for those it affects and a good thing for the country. Only it is a deceptive promise. It's made with no comprehension of reality - or maybe with plenty of comprehension of reality but an unwillingness to confess to the truth.

    Look, I'd love to stop people wasting money on gambling, grog and drugs - not just welfare recipients, but EVERYONE (because the others will probably become welfare recipients in due course if they continue their bad habit!). But you cannot do it by means of a card that lets someone buy food and clothing and furniture that they can then sell for cash! You cannot do it by taking an addict's fix away, unless you recognize that many will resort to violence and crime in response. Addicts go to great lengths to get their fix. A little ol' card that they can't use in a grog shop isn't going to stop them! Solution is simple. Buy food. Sell food for half what you paid for it. Presto! Cash! Family is WORSE off than if you were allowed to buy food in the first place. Whoops! Wife holds the card. Simple. Beat her until she hands it over, or just steal the food she bought with it. Only a blind fool would presume that an addict will go without his fix because of such a small inconvenience!

    This is a DUMB proposal that is superficially attractive, and can be made to look smart with ill-informed arguments, but at the end of the day it is DUMB. It will cost more than it saves, and it will do virtually nothing to solve a problem that we could actually solve much better by stopping people like Forrest from importing cheap labor, by making multi-nationals and the fabulously wealthy pay fair taxes, and by stopping the importing and exploitation of cheap foreign labor and preserving jobs for Australians.

    We would all be far better served demanding that the Government start fixing the social problems that government waste and indulgence of the elite have created - so that there are less people who fall on hard times and need ''welfare'', and more people enjoying the rewards of work and wise spending and a greater incentive for people to strive.

    Sadly, it's just too damned easy to lie about the problem and blame the victims of social failure.
    Sen.Cit.90
    8th Jun 2015
    3:13pm
    Rainey; As before I feel you have(as before) outlined the situation very well; I hope others read it fully and digest.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:31pm
    Rauny,
    APPLAUS!
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    11:43pm
    Well said.. again!
    Yutcha
    8th Jun 2015
    2:36pm
    Hear, hear Rainey! If a fair level of tax was collected in relation to areas such as superannuation and negative gearing and wasteful government spending was reduced then this country would be able to pay all citizens who had worked and paid taxes all their lives a non means tested government pension as in the cases of England and I believe New Zealand and no doubt other countries as well. Also eligible age pensioners should be able to spend as long as they wish overseas each year without penalty!
    jlhf43
    8th Jun 2015
    2:57pm
    I have been working as a volunteer in the Emergency Relief sector for several years now, and I visit some homes and see clients in the office as well. I also keep the record of how often people visit our outlets, report back to the DSS which funds us - I have to stress STATISTICS ONLY - and I have a very good idea what goes on in the sector. Twiggy Forrest didn't dream this up at all. The last Labor government introduced "Money Management" several years ago, in certain areas of the country, which have always been known for their disadvantaged residents. The rent was paid directly to state housing authorities and some money was left accessible for clothing, transport etc, with a separate card for food purchases at designated stores. When I first heard about it, I thought "How dare they!" Like many who have commented here, I was horrified at the prospect of "the government telling me what to do with MY money!"
    In reality it was not across the board as most of you seem to think.
    After my years working in ER, I believe this should be applied to specific people, based on the ER sector being able report their concerns to DSS. I say this, because we see quite a few clients on disability pensions, who have mental health conditions and just can't handle their money. The problem lies with family and friends who know this and coming around on pension day, suggesting lunch. When they finish lunch or whatever, they walk away, leaving the DSP client to pay the bill with their own card and getting nothing from the freeloaders for their meal. This is a very frequent event for many clients, and often involves several people. These people need protection from such nasty pasties and I would see it as an across the board practice. For the rest of us who CAN look after our own money, it should be as it is. How should the government decide who gets which type of pension/allowance? Check out the credit files of everyone and those who don't have a bad record continue as they do now. For those who DO have a problem, they are asked to visit Centrelink for a review and they go to an accredited financial counsellor and continue with training and supervision for say 6 months until they can show they have mastered their money problems. For those who fail that, they have their rent and other regular payments paid direct to the organization, the food card which could include a small amount for clothing. The rest would be left in their debit card account for telephone calls, entertainment etc. Most of the clients have a mobile phone only because a land line is not affordable in their eyes. I am an Age Pensioner, so I’m not rolling in money, nor do I have any superannuation to top me up, but I manage. By the way, I am NOT worse off under this government, despite the leftards saying we all are and anyone who says they are is not being honest, or they have taken on more Radio Rentals or Rent-the-roo! My agency is setting up a network where we operate, to support our clients by referrals to appropriate specialists, such as financial counsellors, social workers, GPs, Drug and Alcohol counsellors etc.
    Misty
    8th Jun 2015
    3:11pm
    Jlhf43 superannuation has been compulsory for some time now so surely you must have got some when you retired? from your job.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    11:47pm
    You're not 'worse off' courtesy of the Senate. The issue is that the changes mooted are long term, and you wil only feel the bite slowly, and the Senate saw through that.

    "The sword of time will pierce our skin,
    It doesn't hurt when it begins,
    But as it makes its way on in,
    The pain grows stronger, watch it bring...

    Suicide is painless,
    It brings on many changes,
    And I can take of leave it if I please."
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:16am
    TREBOR

    Love the poems.
    They convey the truth so well
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:19pm
    Theme from MASH - the words of the prophets are often written on the walls of music as well....

    I'm very fond of posting 'North Country Blues' by Bob Dylan whenever the issue of mining comes up... how prophetic (not his original - it's an Irish/Scots miner in the US thing - from the Molly Maguires kind of era)...

    'That it's much cheaper down,
    The South American Town,
    Where the miners work almost for nothin'"...kinda sings, neh?
    HarrysOpinion
    8th Jun 2015
    3:13pm
    Hey robbo, I will tell you why the Government should pay for pensioners...because we as past taxpayers paid for your or your kid's education and HealthCare. We paid for the roads that were build and the footpaths that you walk on and we paid for the defence and security of this country out of our taxes and risking our lives in Vietnam . During all those hard years of our hard working life and high taxes plus levies we really had hoped for a better generation of people like you who would respect their age pensioner elders, THAT’S WHY robbo!
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    11:49pm
    .. and not one of us even queried the Right of our elders to retire on a Pension.... which came out of our tax, as the pensions of those before came out of theirs.....

    I recall NOT ONE person even asking the question or considering it somehow a 'bite' on the taxpayer to pay for our grand-parents etc, and that includes the disabled.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    11:50pm
    Frankly this current attitude - and even the attitude of some older people towards those 'young bludgers' - is absolutely disgusting.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:22am
    TREBOR
    It's a problem that has been "ON PURPOSE" by ALL previous governments.
    It happened on OUR WATCH.
    So, WE MUST STAND UP to STOP & CORRECT it!!!
    The whole 'DESIRE for TOTAL CONTROL" by government STINKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I think RUSSIA is becoming a FREER country than we are as COVETED CONTROL is running RAMPANT in Australia.
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:26pm
    Ah - you have been looking at my "Perpetual Civil War Between State and People" (to determine who actually has power and in what ratios).. and "The Divine Right (or otherwise) of Elected Government"....

    Perhaps it is in some for of psychic thing.... that deep underlying Truth that people know in their water... something is wrong.... terribly wrong...... and some can articulate it (which is their job in life)...

    "You know - it's just come to me, though I've known it all along.... this entire operation is a cock-up from start to finish. I don't think many of us.. if any .. are going home again! I can almost feel the Reaper reaching out to gather in The Div. I can feel it in my water."

    - Zeno (The Cauldron)... about Operation Market Garden, 1944, British 1st Airborne Division at Arnhem - 82% casualties over nine days.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    1:11pm
    TREBOR
    Those poor blighters (in the battle of Arnhem & Nijmegen) were just "Gunfodder" as those in power new that there were 2 "fully rested panther divisions just nearby (less than 30 kms away).
    They were KNOWINGLY sacrificed !!!
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    8:01pm
    II SS Panzer Corps - 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions resting at Arnhem. I wrote a fictional story along the same lines as one book in my WW IV series.... the battles in the book series are based on historical battles and sort of out of their time and place. I've read extensively about Arnhem, and the tactical failings involved, especially the extreme difficulty of relying totally on aerial resupply - as the French did at Dien Bien Phu. After Arnhem I would have thought nobody would go there again.
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    8:01pm
    II SS Panzer Corps - 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions resting at Arnhem. I wrote a fictional story along the same lines as one book in my WW IV series.... the battles in the book series are based on historical battles and sort of out of their time and place. I've read extensively about Arnhem, and the tactical failings involved, especially the extreme difficulty of relying totally on aerial resupply - as the French did at Dien Bien Phu. After Arnhem I would have thought nobody would go there again.
    jlhf43
    8th Jun 2015
    3:27pm
    Robbo, I have worked all my life, (nearly 55 years) only taking time out to have children. I've EARNED my Age pension - and I'm STILL WORKING as a volunteer, so your comments are most offensive. I have no excesses and I am just as entitled to the necessities of life as those who have "there own money". I think you mean "their own money"!
    tia-maria
    8th Jun 2015
    5:30pm
    JLHF43.......just maybe Robbo maybe is working for the Liberal Party PM Abbott???.............and being paid to be far to out spoken in this article.........to give us retired pensioners unnecessary offensive comments.
    Misty
    8th Jun 2015
    5:55pm
    Surely you must have got the compulsory super jlhf43 if you worked all those years or did you work for yourself and not pay into a super fund?.
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    11:54pm
    It's actually LESS 'their own money" than the Pension. As I've explained many times, the Pension is fully paid for out of a fully taxed portion of Income Tax over a life's work, whereas superannuation has received three layers of concession.

    Super receives a concession for putting it away; then it gets a concession via franked dividends from fund investments; then it gets a tax-free ride when taken as an annuity.

    Three big bites of the cherry - so it is hardly 'their own money', is it?

    Yet there is a massive outcry over any suggestion to tax EXCESSIVE income from super - while at the same time forcing pensioners who continue to work to pay tax on Pension as well as earnings.

    Daylight robbery.....
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:24am
    TREBOR
    Once again -- SO CORRECT!!!
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:29pm
    Oh - and I left out this obvious point. Someone receiving unemployment benefits, is an investment in the future of that person, when at some point they return to the workforce and begin to pay income tax again or start paying income tax. Same with students - it's an investment - not a gift.
    Jilly B
    8th Jun 2015
    3:42pm
    I have worked in numerous indigenous communities in Australia and other places overseas and on what was called Pay Day Thursday many of the staff were not at work or for a few hours until the pays were dished out. After that they were under the trees playing cards for money, drinking, and fighting. The children were with the grandmothers who were given no money to feed the children and they stayed there until Monday morning when parents surfaced usually still drunk and broke. This does not apply to all of course but to far too many. A scheme that was trialed whilst I was in Australia's north was to put 50% in credit at the local shop and it could not be used for cigarettes etc, and there was also a scheme voluntary to elect to put the 50% into the shop account. Both had limited success as some of the mothers did elect to do this but then family and partners abused them when they had no money for drink etc. This is a very difficult one as people with little experience of this will write about rights etc so please let us know what you would do if you were the grandmother?
    Jilly B
    8th Jun 2015
    3:43pm
    I have worked in numerous indigenous communities in Australia and other places overseas and on what was called Pay Day Thursday many of the staff were not at work or for a few hours until the pays were dished out. After that they were under the trees playing cards for money, drinking, and fighting. The children were with the grandmothers who were given no money to feed the children and they stayed there until Monday morning when parents surfaced usually still drunk and broke. This does not apply to all of course but to far too many. A scheme that was trialed whilst I was in Australia's north was to put 50% in credit at the local shop and it could not be used for cigarettes etc, and there was also a scheme voluntary to elect to put the 50% into the shop account. Both had limited success as some of the mothers did elect to do this but then family and partners abused them when they had no money for drink etc. This is a very difficult one as people with little experience of this will write about rights etc so please let us know what you would do if you were the grandmother?
    Doodarding girl
    8th Jun 2015
    4:17pm
    Don't lets kid ourselves that only 'bad people' will be subject to this totalitarian measure. People expecting a pension are the new 'bad people": Do you want your spending limited to whatever someone else approves?
    'First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Socialist.
    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.' Martin Niemöller.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    6:12pm
    YES! This is exactly what we are facing, but too many are wearing blinkers and will never believe that they will ever come for them. They will!
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:35pm
    Doodarding girl

    VERY TRUE & FRIGHTENING
    We are not far off that situation!
    survivor
    8th Jun 2015
    9:13pm
    This is where we are heading if I do not speak out and there will be no one to blame but me. It is scary
    survivor
    8th Jun 2015
    9:13pm
    This is where we are heading if I do not speak out and there will be no one to blame but me. It is scary
    Savo
    8th Jun 2015
    4:26pm
    This is just a updated idea to the coupons that use to be handed out to the indigenous people where I grew up in SA in the 60s before they got the doll given to them. Some for meat and others for groceries, as soon as they gave them the doll and the right to drink mum and dad collected the cash at the Council office and walked across the road and blew it all on grog leaving all the businesses in town trying to feed the kids. Great idea as it will stop all the drugos and alchos from blowing the money.
    Anonymous
    9th Jun 2015
    1:23pm
    Taken from www.abc.net.au
    dated 10 May 2008

    Labor were the first to introduce this card.

    "Former Labor prime minister Bob Hawke famously backed away from his proposal to give Australians a national ID card in the 1980s.

    Now the Rudd Labor Government is finally going to deliver on a version of it - an electronic national welfare card for parents who may be neglecting their children.

    Federal Family and Community Services Minister Jenny Macklin says the debit card is an attempt to control how welfare money is spent, ensuring it is not frittered away on alcohol, drugs, gambling or pornography.

    "The Federal Government is working with our state and territory colleagues and the child protection authorities will be able to recommend to Centrelink that those parents who aren't properly looking after their children will have some of their welfare payments income managed," she said.

    Ms Macklin is not yet prepared to nominate a percentage of parents that the card would apply to.

    "That will be worked out with the state child protection authorities... It really is something that will be targeted at those parents who are not properly caring for their children," he said.

    She says the program will rely on stores registering to be involved with the welfare cards program.

    "That is the purpose of having this personalised, PIN-protected debit card," she said.

    "Each of the stores who want to be involved with this system will be able to be licensed so we would hope that a wide variety of businesses will join the system and they will have to agree.

    "The stores will need to agree that they won't provide cash on these cards so the cash can't be used for gambling and so on,etc...."
    dougie
    8th Jun 2015
    4:40pm
    Great idea. If you have ever worked with the people that this is aimed at you will understand that the initiative is not there to punish but to help those who are unfortunate enough to not know how to handle money or who have a habit which they need to feed at the expense of their family. The funds are still available to these people but available in such a way as to provide for family food and necessities which are not available otherwise. I have seen people who receive their benefits overnight and by lunchtime have to attend an assistance centre to obtain bread and margarine for lunch. Money all gone and a bleak two weeks ahead. Then more of the same. Good vibrations on this one. Help those who can't or will not help themselves.
    Doug
    8th Jun 2015
    5:39pm
    Problem is that this is Scott Morrison and the Abbott Government.
    Attacking and demonising the poor is all this is about.
    jlhf43
    8th Jun 2015
    6:35pm
    Dougie, you are right. I know this situation so well, with my volunteer job in Emergency Relief. Trouble with some of these people is that they forget the facts and figures we record and just how many times does their car "blow a gasket", or "the washing machine died on me" in a few months?
    Doug
    8th Jun 2015
    4:45pm
    This is called Poor Shaming. It is also collective punishment.
    How long till the likes of "Mick" "robbo" "Bonny" and the rest of the "I'm alright Jack" mob demand that the unemployed should just rot or be put into some sort of prison for the poor?
    because it's the sort of what I get from their callous and ignorant rants and attacks on people they clearly have zero knowledge. of.

    What sort of ethics and morals does it take to kick someone in the guts who is already down on their luck.
    jlhf43
    8th Jun 2015
    6:56pm
    Doug, this is just not the case with most people who ask for government assistance. Bear in mind, most of the "welfare" (Emergency Relief) agencies are government funded. I'm on a pension, but I make ends meet. Parents with a few kids have parenting payments or a combination of other benefit and the Family Benefits scheme. The truth is, many parents spend far too much time at Maccas, KFC, Hungry Jacks etc. If they started buying FOOD and cooked at home, they would have more money and wouldn't need to see us. These people are double dipping - i.e. getting their Centrelink benefit, then go to the ER agencies for help. There are times most of us could do with a bit of help, I accept that, but when you are seeing these people weekly or fortnightly, you have to ask questions. We are limiting our assistance to 3 helps per year, except in verifiable circumstances. Many think they are "entitled" to this assistance and regard it as a top up for their pension. One client pays over $330 per fortnight to a rental company. I reckon if her rent weren't to go to the housing authority before she gets her hands on it, she would be in arrears in no time! I am not mean - she gets more than I do in allowances, but she keeps adding to her rentals list. Because she pays her money regularly, she gets more from them. I've told her no more until she has budget advice and supervision for 6 months, with a success rate and then we'll see. She regularly uses two different organizations I am associated with and I know there are others she goes to. We don't kick these people in the guts. We are expected to show them a better way of existing by being responsible with their money. We have some success and some failures, more successes, thankfully!
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    4:55pm
    How can I back down from my stated and proven position that Social Security is a paid for Right..... if someone is foolish enough to drink it away, that is their problem.

    Claims that poverty in isolation are the root causes of such things as FAMILY violence, from both men and women, and sometimes children, overlook the total gamut of issues that are at the root of these problems.

    The solution to poverty is to improve real chances for long term work and a fair return for work, and that is, in my view, something totally beyond our current government of The Tag Team of LNP and Labor.
    Young Simmo
    8th Jun 2015
    4:55pm
    Boy I am sick of all the boring, monotonous comments with a slight word rearrangement.
    Can anybody answer the following questions?
    How many unemployed people in Australia?
    How many Jobs available in Centrelink and the Newspapers etc?
    TREBOR
    8th Jun 2015
    5:20pm
    Over 800,000 unemployed..... add in about times 1.5 for under-employed who would prefer more...

    Around 120,000 jobs... many demanding qualifications that those without funds cannot get.

    So maybe a minimum of fifteen applicants for every vacancy, and that does not include those unqualified, who would be massively higher in number to apply for any job at all.
    Adrianus
    8th Jun 2015
    5:26pm
    Hard to say Young Simmo. Roughly speaking there could be around 200,000 to 250,000 job vacancies. The unemployment figure is easy enough to calculate it would be 6.1% of the total workforce which is around 13m, therefor roughly 790,000. We create around 200,000 new jobs pa but our population is growing at around 400,000 pa. mostly from migrant intake, say 240,000. This means that our migrant intake is too high by roughly 40,000. It also means that around 40,000 people are added to our welfare bill every year.
    When Chris Bowen was Immigration Minister he was asked "why don't we take more refugees? He answered honestly in my opinion, "because we cannot afford to."
    Young Simmo
    8th Jun 2015
    5:50pm
    Thanks for that TREBOR and Frank. Now I can say to all the Infantile Mental Retards saying everybody should get a job, go and get Mummy to wipe your nose.
    Young Simmo
    8th Jun 2015
    5:53pm
    Also the ratio of jobs in Hall's Creek and Fitzroy Crossing etc, etc, to the ratio in the Cities would be slightly different.
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    5:54pm
    Officially 800,000 unemployed, but anyone who works an hour a fortnight is classed as ''employed''. There are hundreds of thousands unsatisfactorily employed and looking for opportunities. Only about 120,000 vacancies at any given time.

    And the elitists still rant on blaming the unemployed for their plight, talking about cutting benefits and denying the unemployed lifestyle choices, and calling these poor unfortunates ''bludgers''. SICK!
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    6:08pm
    excellent comments and contributions.... enjoyed.
    Misty
    8th Jun 2015
    6:23pm
    Young Simmo do the maths, if there are roughly 800,00 unemployed and only 200,00 vacancies how on earth are all these unemployed people going to find work, may be everyone with a full time job will have to job share so as to give long time unemployed a chance to work, not that I can ever see that happening.
    Adrianus
    8th Jun 2015
    6:27pm
    Agreed, there could be officially around 12% or more unemployed if we discount those working an hour or two. But the interesting statistic is that there are only 13m workers from a population of 23m. In Chile I think it is they recently lowered the working age to 10. Which was how old I was when I first started working. I agree, its a bit rich for the elitist lefties to rant about the unemployed. They're ok most are working for the PS.
    Adrianus
    8th Jun 2015
    6:41pm
    There are no jobs at the Old Halls Creek unless you want to do a spot of prospecting. If you work hard I reckon you could earn a decent wage.
    Young Simmo
    8th Jun 2015
    6:46pm
    Misty you are the one that needs to do some maths. To start with make a giant leap forward and put another naught on your numbers. That will take away the blond stigma.
    Also I didn't say they are going to find work, you said it, TUT.
    Misty
    9th Jun 2015
    12:14am
    Ok Young Simmo so I left a couple of zeros off, apologise for that mistake but I never said they were going to find work so maybe you can apologise for that remark.
    Young Simmo
    9th Jun 2015
    11:42am
    Sorry Misty, I am a bloke and that means I am always right.
    Oop's
    Oop's
    Oop's
    Oop's
    I said sorry.
    Misty
    9th Jun 2015
    1:03pm
    Apology accepted Young Simmo.
    particolor
    13th Jun 2015
    7:47pm
    Ay Simmo ..I know who the Mental Retards you are referring to are !! :-) :-)
    jlhf43
    8th Jun 2015
    5:22pm
    Dotty, if the woman you mentioned has an 11 year old in the house, she would have to be on New Start, as mothers have to go on New Start when their youngest child turns 8, but this woman could possibly on a disability pension, not parenting payment, although she wouls still be getting portion of Family Tax Benefit.

    8th Jun 2015
    6:05pm
    It is neo-fascism.

    This proposal for a CashLess Card is only the first step - forcing social security recipients on this card (Pensioners will also be the next inclusion) - will give this fascist government absolute control over all social security recipients.
    The next step is to force others in the community on to this cashless card system, those that are in the lower echelons... again absolute control. The next step is to force everyone into a CASHLESS SOCIETY which gives absolute control to the likes of Abbott and is fascist mule carriers. I can image Dutton & Morrison & Hockey sitting with their snouts in the pig trough wallowing in OUR incapacity.

    IF you buck the system, your cashless card stops working for a day, week, month, year, forever!!! No one will know about it and if it does get out, they simply turn to their corporate controlled media mates and pump out some 'terrorist' story.

    It seems as if they are using George Orwells 1984 as a GUIDE, don't you think.

    Oh! an excellent example of Orwell 1984 tactic.... changing the title of 'social security' to WELFARE. It has a brilliant effect doesn't it! Taking away our rights and the governments obligations towards some of the biggest tax contributors into bludger HANDOUTS, with a simple change of name!!

    The wealthy, the smallest contributors to Australia's coffers, screaming the loudest to stop US the PEOPLE from providing for OUR OWN.

    For goodness sake people, do NOT get roped in, YET AGAIN!
    Adrianus
    8th Jun 2015
    6:33pm
    I haven't carried much cash around for years. I have a card or two and I am restricted as to what I can use them on. Unlike Craig Thompson and his mates.
    Doug
    8th Jun 2015
    6:47pm
    Abbott & Co think it's a Cashless society already. they've never had to pay for anything in their entire over entitled lives.
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    7:43am
    If you want to see what a cashless society looks like give Labor a couple more terms.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:57am
    Frank,
    Labour NEVER has pushed the "LEAST WELL OFF" of our Australian community with AS MANY issues RELENTLESSLY (DAY AFTER DAY BOMBARDMENT) as have the Liberal/Nationals.
    That is not to say that they do not have the SAME AGENDA.
    May be we're at a "Point of Culmination" where their Collective Efforts are now providing the "Final Push" for the BANKSTERS to OWN US ALL!!!!

    I'm NOT religious but the JW's are correct.
    We're in the FINAL DAYS of HUMANITY as I do not classify SLAVERY as HUMANITY as such an existence if NOT DIGNIFIED.
    The 144,000 must be the number of Politicians Globally !?!?!?! You think?
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    12:09pm
    I prefer Paul & Linda McCartney's Nineteen Hundred and Eighty Five.......
    bup bup bup da da ta ta da da...
    On no one left alive in nineteen hundred and eighty five will ever do
    She may be right, she may be fine
    She may get love but she won't get mine
    'Cos I got you

    Oh, I, oh, I
    Well, I just can't enough of that sweet stuff
    My little lady gets behind

    On my mama, said the time would come
    When I would find myself in love with you
    I didn't think I never dreamed
    That I would be around to see it all come true
    bup bup bup da da ta ta da da...
    Nurse more please?
    Anonymous
    9th Jun 2015
    5:22pm
    Frank
    your last comment is really off beam or simply pathetic.... you losing it mate? Or simply unable to defend an indefensible mob of hyenas put into govt by Foreign interference and abject bias media.
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    5:38pm
    Mussitate
    That's a right you're not losing. The right to bash the government and bully other posters who disagree with your attitude by name calling.
    Anonymous
    9th Jun 2015
    7:27pm
    I thought this "mob" were put into office by the voters of this country who were sick and tired of Rudd then Gillard then Rudd...the revolving door of the Labor Party.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:32pm
    Radish (F)
    They were voted in by US - Collectively!!!
    SOME did not believe that the promises they made would be - generally - BLATANT LIES.
    And yes, you're correct about Labour's "revolving (or should that be revolting) Door".
    Anonymous
    12th Jun 2015
    5:15pm
    Frank
    Your kidding, aren't you..... breaking into chorus is obviously nasty but because you didn't say so, that is alright. I met someone like you recently.... put people down vehemently for mild cusses but then proceeded to demolish a sweet person for no reason other than to show her superiority and she did it without raising her voice or uttering one swear word. I know which is worse and who is the bigger bully and the nastiest and it certainly is not the plain speaker or the cusser.

    Radish (F)
    Again the Corporate Media TOLD the people day in and day out that Rudd & Gillard were bad. Even though they put Australia's economy at the very top of the world... smashing the USA & UK and beating China & Russia. First time EVER our currency was included in the world mix and the First time EVER Australia received a triple AAA rating...to name just a few mega achievements. BUT YOU WOULD NEVER HEAR ABOUT IT FROM our CORPORATE OWNED (foreign) MEDIA! Murdoch ran out of horribles and even put a front page of Rudd with a fly or bee or something in his hair calling him flybrain or something.... how frigging pathetic and disgusting is that.

    All we have had from YOUR ABBOTT and the other pigs in the tough (Morrison, Hockey and Dutton) is LIES, abject incompetence, gross mismanagement and fascist style manoeuvring. Not to mention the adoption of megacorp wish lists as their economic policies and selling out Australia by swapping Labor's NBN which was STATE of the ART and would have put Australia 20 years ahead of the world, instead we are 20 years behind with a NBN that will cost well in excess of $120b (Labor's was only $37b) to instal/maintain and which was OUT of DATE even before they started talking about it (other countries were pulling it out) AND it can't be upgraded. Example of how useless this NBN is.... my speeds for uploading and downloading will be SLOWER than what I have now.

    I don't like a lot of what Labor is doing right now.... supporting sycophantically Libs removal of our civil rights; giving carte blanche to spy on Australians; internet restrictions, etc BUT they were in the very least VERY competent managers FOR Australia AND for all Australians BECAUSE:

    THEY (Labor) were able to keep the Govt Debt LOW; interest rates at a healthy level; maintain benefits and services; undertake major (future proofing) infrastructure; AND provide for our disadvantaged and pensioners.... all done in the height of the GFC.

    THE LIBS have BEEN totally UNABLE to do ANY of these things and have dragged Australia done to the possibility of looking at a Recession.

    Oh Well! Murdoch and his foreign (plus some local) megacorp (super rich) mates have and are still FILLING THEIR POCKETS, so I suppose it is okay that the rest of Australia is a mess. With LIES, abject incompetence, gross mismanagement and fascist style manoeuvring of the treasonous pigs - Abbott, Hockey, Morrison & Dutton - continuing to wallow in the troughs provided for them by Murdoch and his cronies.
    Young Simmo
    12th Jun 2015
    5:22pm
    Well, Well, Well. look who has just crawled out of his mucky whole in the ground. Get ready for some one eyed rubbish everybody.
    POTATO HEADS best friend.
    Patriot
    12th Jun 2015
    6:25pm
    Young Simmo
    NO need for name calling and Intimidation. Deal with THE FACTS that are presented (as perceived by the Poster) RATHER THAN fight/intimidate/Bully the individual. PLAY THE BALL NOT THE MAN !!!
    In my life, I have seen attitudes similar to what you're displaying currently many times and – almost always – the individual who launched the attack could NOT disprove the issues presented. Just because YOU cannot discredit them (but don't like them all the same), please DON'T "Take the next action" and attempt to discredit THE PERSON via the mechanism of intimidation, bullying &/or exclusion!!!.
    That's what GOVERNMENTS, POLITICIANS & ELITISTS are generally doing. VERY NASTY !!! So, SHOW SOME COMPASSION & MATURITY please !?!?!?
    Just remember: “You don't OWN this forum” so, if you cannot be respectful of other peoples Opinions & Postings, DON'T become like a Government TROLL.
    Just go elsewhere to “Vent Your Frustration, Anger & Ego”!
    JUST BEHAVE or “LEAVE us ALONE” !!!
    Young Simmo
    12th Jun 2015
    6:40pm
    Patriot, what Kindergarten do you go to? Mussitate and I have been joisting for about 18 months, and I find that more entertaining than listening to all you dull boring know it alls. So you crawl back down your hole and go back to sleep.
    When Mussitate sees the light and becomes a LNP supporter, I will find somebody else to have fun with, but,,,,,,,, I am not holding my breath.
    All you Potato Head lovers are the same.
    Adrianus
    12th Jun 2015
    6:59pm
    Patriot why don't you take your own advice???
    Sounds like you may be from the SNP?
    Young Simmo is quite entitled to have opinion.
    Patriot
    12th Jun 2015
    7:21pm
    Frank
    YS is quite entitled to have his opinion about any one contributor to this forum. I know he certainly has about me.
    IF you read my post correctly, I am INVITING YS to express his opinion on the issue that he respond to.
    IF you analyse my post, you will discover that I resent the introduction of "Lack-of-Respect" whilst attacking the person not the issues.
    jlhf43
    8th Jun 2015
    6:08pm
    You are right Misty. I did get a small amount of super when I left the company I had worked at for 15 years after moving here. Don't forget that employers only paid 3% when the SG was introduced, increasing in small increments to 9% in 2009, where it remained until I left in 2007. What happened to it? I bought a modest Hatchback care - ex demo - for $15,000, replaced my old clothes-dryer and washing machine, paid off a store card, not much on it and my credit card, also not much on it. The rest was spent on repaying a loan I took out to get into a housing scheme, devised by someone my co-workers & I trusted - you know the sort of thing where you are expected to actually do a lot of the work yourselves, overseen by a qualified tradie, for whatever you happen to need at the time. One of the group got their house, one sold his partly built house because he couldn't cope with being ripped off and the rest of us just got ripped off. Then we had to pay a solicitor to have it investigated, court fees and guess what? Got not a brass razoo back. Disillusioned? You bet. The instigator was found to be not guilty of deception and not liable to repay the $40,000 (X 10). He was told he should have researched better and had advice from reputable and qualified tradesmen. Leave me pretty disillusioned again? Yes? Am I still upset? Yes, I am, but I won't let it destroy the rest of my life. But he WILL get his one day. He is living in comfort somewhere in Queensland.
    Misty
    8th Jun 2015
    6:29pm
    Maybe you would have been better off to have left it where it was and take a small annuity jlhf43 as I have done, it does provide a measure of security, but we can't all look into the future and know what is best at the time so I hope things work out for you in the future.
    jlhf43
    8th Jun 2015
    6:27pm
    tia maria, don't think Robbo would be working for Mr Abbott. He can't spell, poor grammar - he'd be more likely to be a troll for Billy Shorten!
    Anonymous
    9th Jun 2015
    5:28pm
    jlhf43

    Disagree, if, as you say, Robbo can't spell and has poor grammar, then he definitely belongs in the Abbott camp.... they are all substandard greedy morons or sycophants.
    Young Simmo
    9th Jun 2015
    6:06pm
    OK I see Mussitate is back, and he hasn't changed hands.
    Oh well it will brighten things up a bit, and it will be good to have a fanatical LNP supporter spreading the word.
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    6:47pm
    Yes still the same company!
    Anonymous
    12th Jun 2015
    5:29pm
    Young Simmo

    I know you are a Lib but thought you would be as disgusted with the fed. govt as I am.

    This lot of Libs produce nothing but LIES, abject incompetence, gross mismanagement and fascist style manoeuvring by the treasonous pigs - Abbott, Hockey, Morrison & Dutton - who continue to wallow in the troughs provided for them by Murdoch and his cronies.

    Many decent Liberal members have resigned from the LNP and many others have spoken out against their disgusting megacorp policies and methods.

    Surprised that YOU are a PARTY CLONE!??

    My support for the previous Labor Govt. was due to their excellent management during the height of the GFC but I am very wary of Shorten (see him as a USA stoolie), although he has some excellent core people. I will be looking at policies of all parties and what they mean to Australia next election BUT that will NOT include the LNP because the line up will undoubtedly be the same treacherous CLOWNS, that are currently running amok.
    Patriot
    12th Jun 2015
    6:29pm
    Mussitate
    Whilst I do not agree with you GFC management issue 100%, what you say about it "has some merit".
    The rest is - In my humble Opinion - "Spot On".
    Patriot
    12th Jun 2015
    6:31pm
    YS,
    DO NOT intimidate other POSTERS Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Just because YOUR opinion is OBVIOUSLY not "In Line with Mussitate's Prove Him WRONG.
    DO NOT B***DY BULLY !!!!!
    Adrianus
    12th Jun 2015
    6:34pm
    Does anyone know why Albo looks so happy?
    Adrianus
    12th Jun 2015
    7:02pm
    Gee I think that constant cocky smile of Shorten's is starting to look like a nervous snarl. Does anyone else see that?
    Young Simmo
    12th Jun 2015
    7:16pm
    Yeh Frank that smile indicates to me Shorten is in fantasy land, and when you are on a definite downhill run, smile and pretend.
    In fact he is so bad at his job, I won't be surprised to see the Labor Party dump him before the next election, because they will be staring at disaster.
    Adrianus
    12th Jun 2015
    7:47pm
    If I was Albo I would be wondering how many labor people can fit in a post office box. Because 60% didn't do it. But then again looks like Albo nay just have the support of the AWU now?
    Doug
    8th Jun 2015
    6:32pm
    Well will see this and other ultra-conservative governments think that this will be a great way to create, attack and exploit a deeper under class of people in Australia.
    This Government hates the poor.
    This Government hates public services.
    This Government Hates Responsibility.
    This Government Loves to KICK DOWN AND KISS UP.

    We don't live in a cashless society.
    Forcing a section of Australians to be forced like pariahs into income management is sad.

    That said, this is another example of an attempt to demonise a minority of people.
    You see the Government has failed with refugees.
    They have failed with Muslims.
    They have failed with pensioners.
    They have failed with Terrorism.
    They have failed to distract Australians with all sort of boogimen.

    And so they have gone back to the deadly "dole bludgers". OOooooo Sooo scared...

    Yet the Government has cut billions from Mental Health care, Community Services, Public Health Care Services and Education.

    And where are the Million jobs Tony Abbott promised?
    Oh right he never said they would be paid jobs did he?

    Yet people still trust this reptile Government.
    Sure attack the poor, the down and out, the single mums, the druggies, the alcho's, the homeless, the mentally ill.
    But just remember you're next on the list.

    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Socialist.
    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
    Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)
    Adrianus
    8th Jun 2015
    6:37pm
    Then they came for you, the poor welfare recipient who couldn't give a ..... and spends his families money on booze. So now its time to speak up aye?
    Anonymous
    8th Jun 2015
    6:59pm
    Arrrhhh Frank.... can't find anything intelligent to say so simply attacks those that are way, way more intelligent and who actually THINK! Belligerent and inane comes to mind when I read your comments?

    Doug.... that mate, was so frigging spot on.... brilliant.
    rinob
    8th Jun 2015
    7:31pm
    As I have worked in communities where a similar card is used I feel that if not abused ,this can be done ,it will help with essential food ,medicinal etc instead of take away ,porn ,booze and or drugs.
    The places that I have worked the overall health of the people improved markedly
    Having seen both ways of receiving money this is by far the most encouraging and should be encouraged
    Bouncer
    jlhf43
    8th Jun 2015
    7:36pm
    The allowances paid initially to any man who reached the age of 65 and women 60 and to those who were not physically capable of working, were instigated in 1901, but not legislated for until 1908, but not paid until 1908 and women had to wait until 1910. All states agreed to this and some states had their own schemes to assist various needs, which were eventually legislated for at a federal level, such as The Maternity Allowance in 1912. Nanna & Rainey, do either of you have first hand, personal experience in what you refer to as "welfare"? Welfare is what is known as the Emergency Relief Sector (ER) today and not as you and others here have termed "welfare", meaning government pensions and allowances.
    gravy
    8th Jun 2015
    7:44pm
    When this is implemented it isn't just about unemployed it is about all those who receive Welfare payments (this includes Age Pensions, DSP, Carers Pension, Carers Allowance, Tax Benefit A & B, and so on). So if you are for instance an Age Pensioner who is entirely dependent on your Centrelink payment with no other income source and you wish to buy a bottle of Rum for your Christmas pudding, beer for your beer batter, wine for your Risotto or any type of alcohol for your enjoyment, for those of you who smoke your weekly ration of cigarettes, and those of you who like to buy a scratchie or a Gold Lotto quick pick you will not be able to.

    Now I for one don't like smoking, gambling, and drinking alcoholic beverages (but I like rum in my plum pudding before it is cooked and wine used in making my Risotto) but I do not then impose my dislike on anyone else by limiting their choices. I agree that violence and other abuse must stop but you just have to look at the old USA in the prohibition era to see that imposing a blanket prohibition on a society or a reasonably large section of society does not fix the problem but rather creates a "black market" which can be far worse than the original issue.

    Using the card to ban the purchases of the prohibited items will just force the sales "underground". I am sure that some will buy the yeast, sugar, bucket and so on to create alcohol. Some people will smoke wild tobacco and start growing tobacco in their backyards. Some will on-sell what they make or grow for example backyard booze (like in Bali it could be possibly cut with Metho), some will trade the food and goods they bought with the card for the very items this policy seeks to prohibit and most probably the items they then purchase will be at very inflated cost. Others I am sure will sell the goods for deflated prices to Black Marketeers to obtain money so they can gamble. Or as others have stated they will rob and steal to obtain what they once would have purchased.

    How do we fix the underlying issues? I am not sure what the answers are but quality education and ensuring it really is free, creating self-worth by developing real industries that are Australian owned and operated so that long term employment is again readily available and providing well-funded and strong support services (rather than cutting or under-funding them) would be a great start instead of always welfare bashing and slashing.

    Just remember, if the Government then thinks that something else needs to be prohibited and that you should not be partaking of it because they pay your income they can easily implement that by just changing what can be purchased with the card with a stroke of the pen.
    Patriot
    8th Jun 2015
    8:49pm
    One CLEAR solution I can see to resolve Alcohol Abuse is to ration Alcohol.

    It certainly is not an Essential" and whilst it restricts other sectors of the community, it might also do them some good as ALCOHOL is a much stronger DRUG with MUCH stronger ADDICTION than others (like pot) that are illegal.

    However, this idea does NOT have a chance of acceptance I think as it would deprive the CARTELS of their profits (Alcohol & associated resources) and also reduce tax revenue.

    So it is as usual - STUFF THE PEOPLE - Let's pray to the MONEY DEMON some more!!!!
    geomac
    8th Jun 2015
    9:36pm
    Why stop at a card and just put the welfare people in reservations and just feed and clothe them from govt provisions. House them in barracks and fence them off. I think there would be support for that with this govt.
    After all they are trashing jobs in industry while relaxing entry for 457 visa arrivals who have no voice and can be underpaid. The govt is creating jobless while whacking them for not having a job. 25% of nursing jobs going to 457 foreigners while newly educated nurses go on the dole. Yeah those leaners don,t have to take on new graduates but can hire 457 arrivals and save on giving aussies a job and experience. Those nurses can go into the compound too as they might be needed as assistants to the govt guards.
    Abby
    9th Jun 2015
    1:05am
    Geo
    I think that already happens when you get put into Nursing Home ... they take all your money and drug you so you are compliant.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:07am
    geomac
    Just some of the problems governmentSSSSS have created during the past 70 years or so.
    It all seems to have been done purposely !!! They just could NOT be that STUPID.
    I then ask: "WHAT IS THE PURPOSE???"
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    8:54am
    Abby that's so true. And some in the nursing home are clever enough to somehow get the door code and escape to a freedom which is also dangerous.
    Geo, I would rather see the foreigners working than on welfare.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    9:09am
    Frank
    Does that mean that you're OK with drugging Old People and then get "Robbed Blind"?
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    10:18am
    Patriot it's not an ideal situation but for many of us that is what happens. We work our buts off, pay heaps of tax, help Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers and Accountants to pay off their investment properties. Then eventually we get stored in a home, usually run by a religious group, where the rest of our money is taken from us. If we die sooner then a little finds its way to our estates. We are squeezed like a lemon! I say yes I would rather be dosed up on morphine while my pocket is being picked.
    Anonymous
    9th Jun 2015
    5:33pm
    Abby
    That made me laugh out loud... so true.

    Frank
    Bugger me, I agree with you AND it was a well written comment.
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    6:39pm
    Err, I'll pass on that but thanks anyway.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    6:57pm
    Frank
    Have you been "On the road to Damascus" and whilst travelling, "Did you a vision occur during this TRIP"
    I agree with Mussitate - such a deviation from your usual responses ! A pleasant surprise!
    BTW - I can understand you're turning his invitation down though !?!?!?
    Anonymous
    12th Jun 2015
    5:38pm
    Patriot

    Hey.... what invitation?????? Now you are frightening me!

    I may be many things BUT when someone's comment is good, I will say so. I have learned that you can disagree vehemently on one topic but be totally aligned on another AND I don't usually take 'real' offence at comments, although I can get very passionate about certain topics.
    Patriot
    12th Jun 2015
    6:38pm
    Mussitate
    I think Frank passed on your "bugger me" suggestion. For once, him and I align on this issue!
    I agree that you're passionate on some issues and suggest that this is because you have actually "Felt the boot on your neck.
    That's the same BOOT that the ELITE - once again - is "lining Up" for us.
    I can remember the FEAR of the family when tanks rolled into Budapest in 1956.
    Not much different now, except that - in our case - tanks have been replaced with DOLLARS.
    Anonymous
    12th Jun 2015
    6:52pm
    Patriot
    Ooooops! Use that term without even thinking of the non-australian meaning. You have put the fear of ...... in me, now!

    The rest of your comment is spot on and explains things without the need for verbosity which is a skill, you have, it seems.
    Adrianus
    12th Jun 2015
    7:11pm
    Mussitate
    I Know someone like you. You put people down vehemently for mild cusses but then proceeded to demolish a gentle person for no reason other than to show her your superiority and she did it without raising her voice or uttering one swear word. I know which is worse and who is the bigger bully and the nastiest and it certainly is not the plain speaker or the cusser.
    Anonymous
    12th Jun 2015
    8:54pm
    Frank
    You have repeated my words about what I observed personally .... your point?

    It is a bit childish but if that's your thing, go for it.

    By the way, I am not capable of accepting that sort of behaviour and speak up loudly and clearly against it. I also oppose those that are deceitful about their support of the wealthy elite over ordinary people who bear the brunt of the tax burden and I do so strongly. However, I do not and never would uphold fascist, unfair and cruel policies designed to feed the wealthy with the blood of the poor.

    Come on Frank, when you 'unconditionally' support a distinctly derelict and malfunctioning govt. to the hilt whilst spitting poison at others who do NOT support that same party, you lose ALL respect.

    Remind me NOT to compliment any comment you make when I find it intelligent and well written..... it only seems to bring out the worst in you.
    Peterrj
    8th Jun 2015
    9:48pm
    What a pack of misinformed whingers you lot are: 'How can I buy rum for the Christmas Cake Boo Hoo etc?' Sorry, it has nothing to with what most of what you are all whinging about. Here is a quote from the report, 'I recommend that this scheme be implemented so that an individual’s welfare payments, other than age or veterans’ pensions, would be paid into a savings account drawn on with a Healthy Welfare Card.' It's about welfare payments OTHER than age or veteran pensions!!!! But I don't blame you for your misdirected thoughts .... Leon Della Bosca, you lit the fire. How about telling us if Welfare Payments includes 'our' pension payments????? And in the future YLC try and stop misleading your readers, it's not good for their blood pressure. If I am wrong then surely YLC MUST add some defensive comment in rebuttal and if silent then that must be an admission of guilt? Over to you YLC....
    Adrianus
    8th Jun 2015
    10:09pm
    Peterrj, you read it correctly but that Leon's job. He has no call to justify that part of his job. This could unravel to be another one of those "the greatest moral dilemma of our generation" type of changes and you want Leon to justify why he is very successfully generating some opinions?
    gravy
    9th Jun 2015
    1:13am
    I didn't say I couldn't pay for my rum for the pudding nor would I be so upset I would cry about it as was inferred by your comment (your attempt to belittle valid commenting). In the previous incarnation of this idea (Basics Card) it was originally said that it would only affect the people receiving Newstart, Sole Parents Pension and similar payments. But when it actually started it affected all Centrelink recipients including those on Age Pensions.

    My reference to Age Pension was incorrect in the examples I used and I stand corrected. However to cut to the above quote from the report it only removes two types of pension from the list, those being Age and Veterans, and still leaves Carers, Disability and other pensions affected. When further reading is done the Social Services Minister, Scott Morrison, advises that "There's no suggestion at this stage that the card will have mainstream application," please note he says "at this stage". This scheme has not been finalised and these will only trials at the moment which may result in further changes to those who have to use this card and the areas. My comment was about the broad removal of choices from others and how I did not support such broad application. If broadly implemented then the ramifications could be very undesirable to our society.

    There is the ability to withdraw small amounts of cash but at a level that would, they say, restrict the ability to purchase drugs. But as a point on the cost of drugs I refer to an article in the Canberra Times by Stephanie Anderson on 20 May 2013:

    "According to statistics provided by ACT Policing, ecstasy (MDMA) prices were among the cheapest in the country - Canberra users pay $20 to $40 for a cap, compared with up to $60 in the Northern Territory.

    Ice users also paid some the cheapest prices in the country, at $50 to $80 for the typical street deal of 0.1 gram. Users in the Northern Territory and Western Australia paid up to $200 for the same amount, while Queenslanders recorded prices of to $150.

    Commission chief executive John Lawler said Australia’s robust economy and a high rate of disposable income could be responsible for the hefty street prices.

    “Australian users have traditionally paid premium prices in world terms for illicit drugs, making importation highly profitable,” he said."

    So if this scheme ends up affecting all Centrelink and possibly Vet Affairs payments Australia wide and if this cash amount is supposed to be so low that drugs are not able to be purchased easily then the amount of that cash withdrawal would be very low indeed. When the available cash goes down this may be reflected in lower street prices of drugs (In the article this current high cost of drugs could be a reflection of high disposable incomes and a robust economy) and if drug prices remain high then crime could increase or as I noted an underground market could emerge.

    Paternilistic attitudes by Governments have very rarely generated good outcomes. What brings about the greatest changes are when the populace become well educated, well employed and when society support those who are less fortunate.

    Unfortunately there has been a steady decline in industries that provide employment, a large decrease in access to free education (public schools are not free, there are substantial costs involved in sending children to school these days). Universities no longer are as cheap and accessible as they once were. They are becoming more elitist so more prospective but financially constrained students cannot afford to attend.

    Health services have become poorly funded, and so have support services such as counselling services.

    Charities such as St Vincent De Pauls have more seeking assistance and Governments have cut their own services and have expected the Charity Organisations to pick it up.

    The are some of the things that need fixing rather than using the old line that Welfare is the problem. The increasing welfare cost (both financially and socially) is not the problem, it is the symptom and the result of successive Governments making poor decisions at the Local, State and Federal levels to pander to a few at the expense of the many. When you give people hope and a future then many of the ills we see today start to disappear. I am not saying that there will not be drug abuse, violence and such but it will be greatly reduced.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:04am
    Peterrj
    I think we ALL recognise that there are some problems when these payments are squandered on grog, pokies, drugs etc. We all understand that this squandering causes innocent people (partners & offspring) to suffer unnecessarily.

    HOWEVER, when a dog - no matter what breed -is beaten the CRAP out every day as a corrective matter, it will eventually correct the problem he's beaten for. SURE!
    Unfortunately, you'll also get a very vicious dog that "Slinks away & Behind you" and attempts to bit you every time you get near it. This dog now cannot be trusted, and will bit you and/or every body else at every opportunity it gets.
    SO, has the problem been fixed?
    The initial problem MAY have. BUT, you have stimulated a diversity of problems - most worse than the initial one - as a result.

    The same with kids who have been beaten relentlessly as corrective measures/punishment. It is seldom that these individuals become “Full & Dignified” members of our communities due to the trauma they have been subjected to.

    The same with people (Caucasian, pensioners, welfare recipients, aboriginal, Asian, Muslims etc. whatever TAG you want to put on them). If you elect to "Hit them with a big stick" the problem you hit them for might stop BECAUSE of FEAR.
    However, a multitude of other (usually even more unpalatable) problems will surface as a result of your BARBARIC initial actions.

    What the solution to the problems we're discussing is, I don't know and I am "Not Paid enough" to be a Specialist in this area. What I do know is that introducing CONTROL MEASURES cannot be the proper & dignified answer.

    “SLEDGE HAMMER approaches NEVER WORK !!!!
    Sledge Hammers should only be used to BREAK UP things like rocks & Concrete !!!
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    1:10pm
    Perhaps we could put the entirety of the peasantry on cards top ensure they all do the right thing with their wages.... of course we would exclude the elite.....

    Anyone who fails become liable for selection for The Hunger Games.
    guyra2
    8th Jun 2015
    10:19pm
    Really good idea and a lot more benefits than at first realised
    butcherbird
    8th Jun 2015
    10:26pm
    what is to stop people from buying clothes etc then selling them for money to get their liquor and drugs
    Peterrj
    8th Jun 2015
    11:00pm
    Ever tried selling clothes?
    ray from Bondi
    8th Jun 2015
    11:08pm
    you have the right idea, there will be low lifes who will trade the cards in for half there value to give the helpless whatever they want
    carmencita
    9th Jun 2015
    12:24am
    At a certain point it is good if it is truly to address drug and alcohol abuse. On the other hand it takes away a person's dignity and the right to self-determination. Overall it is a short sighted strategy. Surely, with too many highly paid think tanks they could think of a better way.
    Jezemeg8
    9th Jun 2015
    12:25am
    Assuming that every pensioner or welfare recipient spends their money on things such as illicit drugs/alcohol/gambling etc is very wrong. Just because some do doesn't mean that everyone does...it's akin to saying that because some lawyers abuse their privilege ergo everyone in that profession does.
    I think the card would be useful where there is a history of not being able to manage one's benefit appropriately (as in unpaid rent etc) but where there is no history of misuse of one's benefit then one should continue to get the benefit as usual.
    As to Robbo's continued lumping of pensioners living off the taxpayer, well Robbo, I've been paying taxes since age 15, never shirked them my responsibility to do so. Unfortunately when I was able to work there was no such thing as superannuation, when I was forced to retire because of disability my 'golden' handshake was less than $1000, not even what I had contributed during my lifetime of work. But then in those days it was considered that it was not important for women to have any security after they left work, after all they'd be covered by their husband's right? I was forced to retire in the same year that universal super covered permanent part timers and contract workers. Frankly I feel that as I've paid my taxes diligently throughout my working life, working 3 jobs, 18 hours a day 7 days a week to put a roof over my children's head and educate them when their father decided to leave us, that claiming welfare now when I have need of it is not a burden on the taxpayer, many of whom I supported with my taxes whilst they were growing.
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:41am
    Again a wonderful array of comments and obviously thought-out views....

    The hope for any future for this country rests with its elders...... time for us to stop reading the runes and start leading.....
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:43am
    Trebor,
    Have you had a look at the Mature Age Party.
    This MIGHT be the tool to be used !?!?!?
    Adrianus
    9th Jun 2015
    8:12am
    Trouble is TREBOR, you Greenies are a little wacko. Sure some of you sound intelligent but that's only because of being career academics. Have you ever listened to Sarah Hansen Young? I mean really listened? I don't know that their is one adult in the Greens.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    8:25am
    Frank
    First we were all labour supporters. Now we're greens supporters.
    Frank, Make up your mind.

    I can only speak for myself but I am NOT supporting ANY CURRENT politician as - with A FEW EXCEPTIONS only - they are committing TREASON the AUSTRALIA & its PEOPLE by SELLING US OUT to the ELITISTS & BANKSTERS!!!

    We have very MATURE ideas just that they oppose YOUR Immature Ideas!
    I, once again, cannot speak for the others but I certainly AM NOT a career academic.
    Yes I hold 2 University Degrees in different diciplines and am working on a pHD currently.
    However, such DOES NOT Blinden me to what is going on around me!!!
    Reality = Reality!
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    12:52pm
    Me.. a Greenie? Or a Labor supporter? ROFLMAO.... I oppose ALL parties at this time - read my postings here and you wil see clearly that I stick it to Labor as much as I do to the LNP -The Tag Team ( a term I created for the essential coalition of Labor (the Labour Party without U in it) and the 'Right' wing party BTW)...
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    1:07pm
    I will allow that being a Professor Emeritus in two disciplines might make me an academic.... but I can assure you my life experience is practical... to the max....

    If there are seven circles of hell to be negotiated to reach Nirvana or whatever - I've passed through maybe five of them in this life..... yet I remain the Bright Shining Hope for you all (snuckle).....
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    1:18pm
    TREBOR
    Academic or not does not make a difference and does not mean that you HAVE TO BE TOTALLY "DISCONNECTED".
    Unfortunately though, That is the ONLY THING most Universities are good at these days: "Disconnecting individuals from the HARS (SH) realities of Life".
    Anonymous
    12th Jun 2015
    8:38pm
    frank

    Actually, I have looked at the Greens Party policies and I have become 'interested' because they reflect more than just the environment.

    The Liberal Parties megacorp 'wishlist' policies, makes the Greens Party's policies look totally sane and make the Liberal Party look more like treasonous cockroaches, willing to feed off ordinary and disadvantaged Australians.

    Come on Frank, when you 'unconditionally' support a distinctly derelict and malfunctioning govt. to the hilt whilst spitting poison at other parties, you lose ALL respect.
    Peterrj
    9th Jun 2015
    1:29am
    Hey, don't you people go to bed at night?? There are soo many 'late' night comments!!!!
    Misty
    9th Jun 2015
    10:01am
    Why are you up so late then Peterrj?, same could be said about you but maybe people find this topic interesting enough to keep them out of their bed so late.
    particolor
    15th Jun 2015
    7:09pm
    Not up late, is up early ! went to bed at 5pm ! :-)
    Pass the Ductape
    9th Jun 2015
    6:36am
    In some situation it could work, but applying the concept to every situation would be ludicrous! I.E. - A scheme such as this should not apply to aged pensioners unless the government is prepared to deal with a massive disruptive element in the way people progress through their lives in their latter stages. I could see a backlash - the likes of which governments could never contemplate - if an attempt is made to introduce such a hairbrained scheme.
    It's obvious that the scheme - dreamed up by Andrew Forrest - is one that he himself will never have to concern himself with - being that he is such an overpaid twit to begin with!
    MJM
    9th Jun 2015
    7:33am
    My debit card allows cash out... Can this happen?? and when this card begins are government bodies including police ready for the hold ups and home break ins for items they can pawn for cash to buy drugs / alcohol ready for the increase in domestic violence when they are suddenly taken off their dependency. Will they have medical ,social outlets available to deal with sudden change? Need to go a little deeper I feel.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    7:49am
    MJM
    I believe that this SCAM is the first entrant on the road to a Cashless Society in which everything is monitored & Controlled by the Evil BANKSTERS.
    OUR Elected reps are just working for THEM and not for US!!
    In fact, they are working AGAINST US & the BEST INTEREST of AUSTRALIA!!!
    Should that be called TREASON.
    gravy
    9th Jun 2015
    2:04pm
    MJM Yes the card will allow for small cash withdrawals. But they, the politicians, have stated that it will be at a level that will not allow a person to easily buy drugs (this by it's stated aim would then have to be a very low amount). No actual figure of this amount has been given yet and they state that negotiations are still ongoing with the banks as to how this will work.
    Yutcha
    9th Jun 2015
    7:59am
    As it seems is always the case with government policies made 'on the run', the missing link is the question is 'what are the likely repercussions of the introduction of a so called 'healthy welfare card'? As many have commented already, addictions are an illness and therefore need to be treated as such. If addicts cannot purchase what they need with their own money then they will likely resort to crime in order to feed their addiction. Is this what we want? A more desperate and less safe society? We need to identify and treat the addictions and I don't see how the 'healthy welfare card' can assist in this.
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    8:05am
    Yutcha
    Spot On!!!
    Chris B T
    9th Jun 2015
    10:11am
    The Idea is good, implementing would take up to much time and divert resources.
    The posts on this site explain some of the shortfulls, when and if it was passed there would be many more.
    I belive it has to be The Receiptants To Make The Right Choices.
    A Big Stick Approach was ruled out of schooling, this is a similar way of dealing with a problem. :-(
    student
    13th Jun 2015
    12:38pm
    right choices?? By whose standards??
    elephants
    9th Jun 2015
    11:05am
    bring back NATIONAL SERVICE we have so many out of work to teach various trades ,if u leave school u go straight in if u r out of work or can't find work in 6--12 months ur in.
    2/ This card is a must for a large portion of welfare recipients.My only concern is that some will steal to get what they want..3/ the justice system has to an arrangement about this.The police r sick of arresting continuing repeat offenders & the courts let them go with another slap on the wrist.. 4/ comes back to national service these go into it after drug rehab etc. The goodie to shoes that say it's against peoples rights to go into N/S. Wake up this country is going down hill fast. Come up with an answer
    buby
    12th Jun 2015
    1:19pm
    Yes Elephants somethings gotta give. PPl really gotta wake up
    Highlander
    9th Jun 2015
    11:06am
    May be reasonable if directed to individual appropriate cases & can only be determined by a trial. Is not appropriate as a general solution for reasons previously given. Addicts will resort to crime. Some necessities require cash. Responsible pensioners should be entitled to enjoy an alcoholic drink in moderation. It would prevent a pensioner saving some cash over a period of time towards a desired purchase. Also it does not prevent someone drawing cash when buying groceries at the supermarket as is the case with debit cards.

    9th Jun 2015
    11:27am
    Taken from this report by the National Commission of Audit.
    http://www.ncoa.gov.au/report/phase-one/part-b/7-1-age-pension.html

    'In the Commission’s view the Age Pension should be regarded primarily as a social safety net, with the objective of providing security for older Australians who are unable to support themselves in their retirement. Older Australians with the resources to fund their own retirement should do so.'
    Lookfar
    9th Jun 2015
    12:43pm
    Ah, Radish, thanks for that, another group to control, those on the Superdole, i.e. the Public Service, - they receive an even larger, much larger, amount from the Public Purse, and boy do they drink!
    No Public Servants should be allowed to drink, it is unseemly, and can lead on to all sorts of other corruption.
    While we are at it, a special politicians card might work out all right too, there is a right bagful of sins that group seems to be heir to, perhaps best if they have to apply for each payment individually and have to have receipts for everything they buy, - audited fortnightly with random inspections and audits
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    1:00pm
    'primarily as asocial safety net' - depends on the fine print, don'cha think?

    What a self-interested and lop-sided 'commission of audit' - which has no power BTW and is not something we have to accept - means by a 'social safety net' means something entirely different from the proven fact that Pension is a paid for and fully funded by past income tax contribution Right.

    If they are discussing the reality that those with a retirement income over a certain amount should not be gett a pension - what's new there?

    It seems to me the statement is to move the pension from being a Right to being an optional privilege.

    I think we could do with some genuine commissions of audit - from those parties directly involved and affected for a change - and not some bunch of fat cats with no idea.
    Anonymous
    10th Jun 2015
    9:56am
    The old aged pension has not been a" right" for quite some time.

    If it was a" right" there would be no "income" or "assets" test ; everyone over 65 or whatever would automatically be getting it.
    Patriot
    10th Jun 2015
    10:05am
    Radish (F)
    That's how they are NOW programming us - Quite successfully to I might ad!
    Adrianus
    10th Jun 2015
    10:56am
    Patriot we have been advised of this for more than 30 years. When do you think people will get with the program?
    Patriot
    10th Jun 2015
    11:08am
    Frank,
    Our Servants (Politicians) have now become OUR MASTERS and therefore most people have "Gotten already with the program".
    Me, I'll never be programmed to "Get with the Program".
    I recognise them for "what they are".
    Irishwolfhound
    9th Jun 2015
    12:27pm
    What a stupid idea! How on earth did they think this doozy up? The first thing the drug or gambling addict will do is buy up on groceries or clothing or whatever they are allowed to buy, and then go round the corner to sell them for "real" money to gamble with!
    guyra2
    9th Jun 2015
    12:40pm
    As with all ideas that seemed a good idea at the time the card needs testing by those proposing it ....a few weeks with their use of limited income.....bound by a card that says none of lifes extras.......not meaning their useage of drugs and alcohol instead of feeding and clothing the family...those demands would be adequately covered I'm sure........but Try it those in power......try it to prove just how livable it is .......Don't question the needs of pensioners..........reexamine where funds not paid into by taxs are now being so thoughtlessly dispersed both overseas and from those that came here from overseas.
    Who among those opening their minds and ideas in here are dedicated enough to start the "TRY IT" party???
    TREBOR
    9th Jun 2015
    1:01pm
    Test run on politicians? Sounds good to me... nothing like a little first hand knowledge.
    Jake
    9th Jun 2015
    1:18pm
    I'm a pensioner also and don't believe this will affecy the aged pension and is going to be directed at those on the dole etc. The card would allow the family to buy the things that welfare is designed to provide, food and lodgings.
    Anonymous
    9th Jun 2015
    5:48pm
    Jake
    1. it is NOT welfare it is social security which is taken from those who pay taxes and the majority of that is from ordinary taxpayers
    2. corporations may pay tax BUT their owners (investors) take it ALL back again in Franking Credits (the wealthy elite do everything through corporations)
    3. others in the higher echelons simply buy property after property and get us the people to pay their mortgages through the reduction of their taxes to zilch.
    4. why can't those who are having a hard time, not be allowed to sacrifice throughout the week to allow a glass of wine or beer with their meal.
    5. the corporate (foreign) media want all of us to turn on your own, rather than the REAL GREED of the wealthy elite. They want you to think of ALL social security recipients as bludgers and that appears to be what you have proceeded to do... given your comment.
    6. the aged pension is definitely the NEXT to be put on a cash card with similar limitations.
    7. it is control of the masses that is sought by the corporations/wealthy elite (who hold Abbott & Co's leashes). Getting us to fight amongst ourselves and forcing cashcards/cashless society onto us, are a way of doing just that.

    It is all carefully designed propaganda that they feed us, that sounds okay but when you try to put it all together, just doesn't fit.

    Words, they are a virus..... wasn't there a song about that??
    Peterrj
    9th Jun 2015
    3:45pm
    'Eight out of 10 income taxpayers go to work just to fund Australia’s $150 billion welfare bill each year.' And you want more and criticise the Govt for trying to stop it being 9 out of 10 tax payers working just to pay for the ever growing Welfare Bill? Why stop at 9 out of 10, let's try and put in a 100% effort???? This comment is about as relevant as most of the other comments on this subject!!! Incidentally Jake has got it right ... This article and most of the above comments has nothing to do with how the Aged Pension is to be paid and spent!
    Patriot
    9th Jun 2015
    4:02pm
    Peterrj
    Not yet at this stage anyway!!! That is in relation to OA Pensions
    Anonymous
    9th Jun 2015
    6:08pm
    Peterrj

    Tutt... $150 billion is nothing! This USELESS TREASONOUS govt. decided to throw away the best NBN in the world at an audited and costed amount of $37b, to put in a totally useless, backward and pathetic NBN (that cannot be upgraded) for an unaudited amount of $100++b. That does NOT include the $12b paid to Telstra for 100year old copper that is in a disgusting state of decay NOR the $100b over 30 years for Telstra to maintain the copper for the govt NOR the billions, necessary for the extra power to cool the stupid nodes on every block to the equivalent of TWO NEW POWER STATIONS. Putting Murdoch's Foxtel profits ahead of Australia's future. Labor's NBN would have put Australia ahead of the world by 20 years, ensuring Australia's innovative future, to support us instead of relying on coal and sheep which is where we are condemned to stay with the LIB/MURDOCH NBN which puts us behind the rest of the world by 20 years.... at massive cost.

    Also, what about the religious institutions who do NOT pay any taxes on their BUSINESS activities.... that alone is in the billions

    Also, what about the sucking out of PUBLIC coffers billions and billions to flow into the PRIVATE non-taxpaying pockets of PRIVATE education institutes for the wealthy and well off (many of those paying these taxes, can't afford to send their kids to these schools, especially when they have doubled their fee structure, so are rolling in money).

    Also, what about the sucking out of PUBLIC coffers billions and billions to flow into the PRIVATE pockets non-taxpaying pockets of PRIVATE health institutes for the wealthy and well off.

    Also, what about corporations who effectively pay NOTHING in taxes because the OWNERS & INVESTORS take back ALL the taxes paid by these corporations.

    Also, what about big FOREIGN corporations, especially in mining, paying no taxes but receiving huge REBATES for their power and water.... paid for by the average Australian. Taking their profits overseas and not contributing anything to Australia, except piddly mining lease fees (I myself could afford 10x square hectares easily for each five years) and pathetic royalties.

    The list goes on and on, Peterrj!

    So what were you saying about the people who pay the bulk of the taxes and therefore are the ones who have paid for - the infrastructure of this country..... hospitals, schools, roads, libraries, parks, etc; - the services provided.... health, education, public facilities; etc, etc

    Were you saying that we can not afford to look after our own because they cost a lot????

    REALLY!
    wisearse
    9th Jun 2015
    5:28pm
    only if the people have an addiction maybe this will work but I fear not as they will only find a nother way to get the money more crime. Maybe some counciling would work better than making these people feal worse than they already do. Or is it another way of the government to controll where we spend.
    Anonymous
    9th Jun 2015
    6:19pm
    wisearse
    yes, good point, only those with addictions are a problem and should be easily established as such and a program provided to deal with it.

    Why should every one else be PUNISHED just because a few have problems, especially when a reasonable programme can be put in place to assist those with addictions.

    No, this cashcard is merely a start to turning our economy into a cashless society, so that the 'plebs' (who pay most of the taxes, mind) can be controlled by the wealthy elite, through their 'pets' (Abbott and the other hyenas).
    Not Senile Yet!
    9th Jun 2015
    9:36pm
    What???? Only a Card with restrictions on spending!!!!
    Why doesn't the Government make them wear Badges......you know....like the Nazis did to the Jews.....so then everyone knows who they are......so everyone will know that they are useless Welfare Bludgers!!!!!
    This Liberal Government is moving very quickly towards the Right Wing Neo-Nazis Government of the past!
    Stopping cash completely compounds the very problem that they say they wish to address......and will lead to more crime to gain access to the cash!!!
    Only agree with a card system to help people navigate budgeting problems....and then ONLY IF VOLUNTARY!!!!
    Otherwise it is a cleverly disguised Jew Bashing Campaign only this time it is aimed at those who are on Welfare......whether they chose to be or not!!!!
    Patriot
    10th Jun 2015
    6:50am
    NSY,
    You "Hit the Mark".
    Nazi Criminals that's what they are!!!
    Anonymous
    12th Jun 2015
    5:40pm
    Patriot
    You jest, yes? You would call people who are disadvantaged Nazi's would you?

    Not Senile Yet
    Once again.... top notch comment!
    Patriot
    12th Jun 2015
    6:40pm
    Mussitate
    Refers to OUR pollies!
    Anonymous
    12th Jun 2015
    7:14pm
    Patriot

    Aaarrrhhh!... Now that makes more sense.

    Cheers
    guyra2
    9th Jun 2015
    10:15pm
    BTW,,,,,Hats off to Dick Smith..........You did us all proud mate
    Patriot
    10th Jun 2015
    6:49am
    guyra2
    Would be nice to see a person who - in my opinion - will have an UNWAVERING integrity in Parliament!
    Ruralnurse
    10th Jun 2015
    9:38am
    Dumb idea. The burglary rate will skyrocket in places like South Hedland.
    Patriot
    10th Jun 2015
    10:03am
    It will SkyRocket anywhere in Australia
    Adrianus
    10th Jun 2015
    10:46am
    Welfare terrorism?
    Dollars over Respect?
    10th Jun 2015
    1:39pm
    Think about this suggestion:
    Druggies, alcoholics, can apply for this cashless welfare card (because if you are a drug or alcohol addict, CASH is your ENEMY). With it, applicants get free (govt paid/supported) access to a professional program (or help appropriate to their individual needs) to ensure they can get the best opportunity to resolve their addictions (if they have kids, govt care facilities provided also for those families involved), BUT as long as the addict remains in the program and demonstrates a continued commitment to progress to a successful outcome). Once they successfully deal with their addiction they then go into a program where they can get professional assistance to find a ‘real’ job - one that pays enough to support them (and the family if they have one) - maybe as ‘mentors in the program’ who actually demonstrate that the program can work! If you can’t get a ‘paid’ job, how can you ‘earn’ a living, how can you possess pride in your ability to provide for yourself (and your family)?

    And ‘yes’ this will need to be administered intelligently. Respectfully please, no ‘Nanny-state’ comments necessary.

    Like many commenting here, I have personally seen the plight of our Aboriginals in places like Katherine, Fitzroy Falls, Coober Pedy and the hapless individuals living hard (zonked out) in the dry river beds of Alice Springs. It is, and would be, soul-destroying for any human being. These people have virtually no hope of escaping out of this cycle. Like the rest of us, they have the same desires and needs as we do, who, fortunately, weren’t born black.

    Heck, surely, our Aged Pensioners, in the autumn time of their life, and after paying taxes all their working life, should be able to spend their ‘meagre’ pension as they see fit - especially if their frugality elsewhere means they are able to have their glass of ‘sherry’ when they want one!
    Anonymous
    12th Jun 2015
    5:42pm
    Dollars over Respect

    Very well written and an excellent comment.... thank you.
    buby
    10th Jun 2015
    6:13pm
    Sally-anne Byrne says: “I think that if a welfare recipient has been charged with drug or alcohol offences, then it should be mandatory.”

    yes i think it a good idea if they have had those offences against them.
    Adrianus
    11th Jun 2015
    7:29am
    I agree with that buby. The operative word of course is "charged" not "convicted."
    Patriot
    11th Jun 2015
    7:37am
    buby,
    I hereby CHARGE you with "Abuse of Alcohol & Drugs".
    So, Now you are "Forced onto the CashCard".

    How sad.
    Anyone can have a vendetta against someone else and accuse them of CRAP.
    If the story is "Good Enough", that person than will be charged.
    CONVICTED MUST be the word and even than I will STAND for this deplorable "Grab of POWER" by our Politicians NEVER to be implemented!!!!
    Patriot
    11th Jun 2015
    7:42am
    It we allow/promote introduction of this, then the LAW is changed from: "Innocent until proven guilty" to "Guilty when Charged" !!!

    Just remember, this WILL APPLY to ALL of US!!!!!!
    Patriot
    11th Jun 2015
    7:51am
    ONCE THE TOOLS OF TYRANNY ARE AVAILABLE - AS HISTORY TELLS US - THEY WILL BE USED!!!
    Adrianus
    11th Jun 2015
    9:07am
    Patriot, I thought that would wake you up this morning :)
    Like it or not there will come a time when police will be given more power to deal with an out of control situation. It is inhumane to do nothing. It is even more cruel to justify that apathy by wrapping it in a "Human Rights" sanction to self destruct and destroy families. I would rather see police carry cards than AR15's.
    buby
    12th Jun 2015
    2:46pm
    Ah Patriot, do you have paper work to prove it, Where is the PRove Man!!!
    I really don't think it would be quiet that easy Patriot!!!
    buby
    12th Jun 2015
    2:48pm
    Eh Wheres the PROOF.....and you making it seem that they would just slap this on me....Me thinks you full of something this morning.......or afternoon!!!
    Patriot
    12th Jun 2015
    3:48pm
    buby
    The only PROOF I have is Two-Fold:
    1 I have seen this "Type if Thing" happening at close range develop & Unfold quite some years ago
    2 I - obviously - cannot impart the perception of those experience and so, the only proof I have is the FUTURE.

    Are you - for the sake of your (grand)kids - willing to take the risk that I (and others) are correct???
    Or are you conscientious enough to ensure that I WILL BE WRONG !!!
    I hope the latter is the case!!!
    Anonymous
    12th Jun 2015
    7:30pm
    buby

    The Proof is in HISTORY and is pretty solid stuff. You could trawl through Wikipedia... this will give you some insights to what is really happening around the world.

    If these facts have wetted your appetite, then maybe you would be interested in looking at the WikiLeaks site..... ALL their information is backed up with written FACTUAL documentation!

    Example:
    How the USA supports murderous fascist groups to take over Ukraine ousting a democratically elected government when that fascist group were unable to get democratically elected; how the USA supports genocide of Palestinians by Israel; how the USA supports murderous dictators in South America; how the USA supported AlQaeda and ISIS (both groups created by Saudi Arabia) with weapons, training, money and special forces AND is still assisting these groups in SYRIA and is not doing a lot to support the current Iraqi govt against ISIS incursions. Saudi Arabia is spreading its empire ... has Egypt and Libya and now wants (along with the USA, to fully control Syria and Iraq through the use of ISIS).

    You won't read any of that in our FICTION driven Corporate (foreign) Media but it is true! The truth and verified facts are out there, you just need to look for it.

    Enjoy!
    Patriot
    12th Jun 2015
    8:45pm
    Mussitate.
    Wonder know how many people know the following paragraphs which are a "Cut & Paste" from the 1939 New York Times:

    NEW YORK TIMES SHOCK HEADLINE - SEPTEMBER 7, 1939 - 'FRENCH INVADE REICH'

    The headlines 3 days later read:
    FRENCH ADVANCE AGAIN: GOERING MAKES BID (a plea for peace)TO PARIS; BRITISH CABINET PREPARING FOR A 3 YEAR WAR

    The Victors are writing the history books and there are few who are willing to validate such reports as portrayed in those documents!

    NOW, I am NOT glorifying Hitler in the 2nd world War. TO THE CONTRARY !!! I AM JUST PRESENTING SOME "LITTLE KNOWN FACTS" and must ask: "Have things changed or are they still the same".
    Patriot
    13th Jun 2015
    11:00am
    In other words:
    Germany was invaded by France 8 months before Germany declared WAR!!!
    UK was preparing for war on a "Massive Scale" before Germany fired the first shot of aggression!

    These FACTS can be verified from the New York Tomes papers printed at that time!
    Midge
    11th Jun 2015
    2:26am
    I am a pensioner (age) I don't drink, gamble or take illegal drugs. I use my pension to live, paid my bills and try o keep up with the maintenance on my home. My pension goes into my bank account, I take out enough for food, petrol, for a fortnight the rest stays in my account to pay for rates, electric, insurances, phone etc. what worries me is how can I still do that with a cashless card, will I be able to take the card to the bank and say can you take $400 off of this and put it in my account please, and if I can then so can everyone else including the people they are trying to stop abusing the welfare. Life is hard enough as it is without some multi-millionaire trying to make it harder I wonder if they will consider people having and feeding a pet wasteful I just wonder where it will all end.
    Patriot
    11th Jun 2015
    7:14am
    Midge,
    Don't worry about it.
    Let's get "Off OUR Buts" and make certain it never happens !!!
    Misty
    11th Jun 2015
    10:58am
    Yes Midge no one thinks about the 4 legged members of a family much these days do they and these pets are often the only companions some people have and the reason they get out of bed each day.
    Patriot
    11th Jun 2015
    11:13am
    Midge
    I'm sure that Woollies will be "On the List" so you will at least be able to buy their pet food for your pet.
    And just because your pet's health will - unfortunately - be adversely affected because of all the artificial components now contained in their food, they certainly will ensure that they also endorse one of the Multinational Corporation Vetenary clinics so that they can also extract the money from the card that way.
    Just because you'll have no choice and you pet will lead an miserable life "DOES NOT MATTER".
    Pets are essential and should be cared for appropriately!!!
    jackie
    12th Jun 2015
    7:04pm
    Compulsory drug, alcohol and gambling rehabilitation would be a better option instead of paying them pensions to support their crimes and addictions.
    Patriot
    12th Jun 2015
    7:25pm
    jackie
    What a sensible suggestion.
    It addressed the problem "At the CORE" and does NOT RESTRICT the LIBERTY of others who do NOT have the problem.
    Gambling & Alcohol abuse is an Illness !!!
    jackie
    13th Jun 2015
    12:14am
    a welfare card for polititions? That would save treasury more.
    particolor
    14th Jun 2015
    9:25pm
    Gambling with a Nations Future while Half Schloshed !! Give them a Welfare Card !! :-)
    buby
    18th Jun 2015
    11:28am
    your absolutely right there Jackie, (yes give those Pollies a Welfare Card, seems they can't get it right!
    They were my thoughts as I was reading the other comments.
    Between the Pollies and the HopeLess, NOt sure which ones need the card MORE!!!?
    jackie
    12th Jun 2015
    11:57pm
    People with addictions should be having rehabilitation instead of welfare cards. Twiggy Forrest should be paying compensation to those Aboriginals that own the land he made his wealth from. It's people like him who are rotting the system.
    student
    13th Jun 2015
    1:08pm
    jackie, unfortunately there is neither the money nor the facilities to cope with the demand for help with rehab. drug addiction. But we see calls for less to be done to help the addicts return to a 'normal' and productive life. And, unfortunately there are bigger and more powerful fish in the sea than Twiggy and they legally 'steal' billions $ from the Australian economy because our oh-so-very-caring politicians have passed laws allowing them to rob us, the people. I include our Indigenous Australians here too. One day there will be mainly multi-nationals earning money in Australia, and paying minimal income tax. Few people will be employed. Will the ruling Government say it is the Australians fault they can't live a decent life or have inexpensive life saving drugs because they, the people, live on a Government pension that does not allow for these luxuries. Blame the victim.

    I give up! I don't drink, do drugs or abuse my family, but apparently I am incapable of spending my pension in the 'right' fashion.
    Adrianus
    15th Jun 2015
    5:52am
    student have you been offered rehabilitation?
    Patriot
    15th Jun 2015
    7:33am
    student
    Unfortunately, a "true vision for the Future".
    A "Master - Slave" relationship where those who "Stole us Blind" are the Masters & the few who "generated the Real Wealth via their labours" are the Slaves.
    particolor
    15th Jun 2015
    8:30am
    And never the Train shall meet !
    Patriot
    15th Jun 2015
    8:42am
    Frank
    student doe NOT need to be rehabilitated.
    He/she's "on the right track" and "Has seen the light".
    student
    13th Jun 2015
    12:36pm
    Have I missed something?? I admit to not reading each and every post but are pensioners the only social group who can be accused of anti-social behaviour such as family violence, gambling, drug abuse etc ?? Are pensioners so socially maladjusted they can not be trusted to buy food instead of grog??? Are pensioners/am I too socially inept that I am below a sub-culture?? If I can be trusted to spend my money 'wisely' if I am working, why can't I be trusted to spend my money as I see what is wisely when my income is a pension?? Does the source of my income determine my mental abilities?? I am a pensioner and proud.
    Adrianus
    13th Jun 2015
    1:48pm
    student, you missed the point that it has nothing to do with aged pensioners.

    What is proposed?

    The Healthy Welfare Card would be based on the Basics Card which currently underpins the various income management schemes across Australia. It would be:
    •issued as a debit card through a financial institution
    •able to be used at any Australian retailer or online facility that accepted debit cards, except for alcohol and gambling outlets
    •applied to all working age welfare recipients and
    •programed to block the issue of cash and the purchase of alcohol, gambling and illicit services, gift cards and ‘exclude activities discouraged by government, or illegal in some places, such as pornography’.

    According to the report, benefits of the card would include:
    •‘people [would] enjoy inclusion in the mainstream financial system’
    •‘individuals and families [would] get the full benefit from the welfare provided by government’
    •‘it would assist individual responsibility’ by eliminating spending on ‘unhealthy’ items and
    •‘bank fraud control procedures … will assist to reduce fraud in Australia’s welfare system’.

    The report argues that ‘if a cashless welfare system is effectively and smoothly introduced, it will render the cash system that preceded it an irresponsible social experiment’.
    Patriot
    13th Jun 2015
    3:14pm
    student
    Many of us on this forum have expressed that we would rather see the CORE of the problems corrected than "Implement Controls" which are - at a later date - easily extended to "The Rest of Us". Gambling & Alcoholism are "A type of Illness" and need to be addressed in a way without Applying yet MORE “ever increasing RESTRICTIONS & CONTROLS".

    George Orwell's Book "Animal Farm" Used to Define Power and Corruption and is worthwhile reading and comparing with the actions our politicians have implemented so far. May be you will find parallels. The quote, “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely,” by Lord Acton is demonstrated in Animal Farm perfectly, and concisely as the characters, plot, and themes show how power can absolutely corrupt.

    We - as Senior Pensioners - believe that we should be able to "spend OUR money" as we wish, where we wish and without being traced by Government!

    Looking at the “Barrage of Intimidation & Attack” emanating from the Current Government makes “SOME of US” very wary to “Hand Over” yet more power to those who are rapidly becoming our MASTERS rather than remaining OUR well paid SERVANTS!

    We elect to HALT the “March towards Serfdom” and retain/gain our FREEDOM as Human Beings.

    Ask yourself the following question: “Does this action have the potential to become the first step in the move towards a “Cashless Society”???
    If the response is YES, should we ensure that it will NOT be implemented?
    Adrianus
    13th Jun 2015
    6:18pm
    student you need to bear in mind that some posters here have been exposed to George Orwell at a very early age and have obviously been exposed to a psychologically traumatic experience which has stymied their sense of adventure and willingness to be courageous in an effort to help fellow citizens.
    Patriot
    13th Jun 2015
    7:28pm
    Frank
    Hope Tony Abbott is paying you triple time on Sundays for promoting his "Party Line".
    The philosophy that will be detrimental to "common Australians" and will concentrate wealth in the hands of the wealthy only!
    Adrianus
    13th Jun 2015
    8:48pm
    Patriot
    If we had todays censorship laws back in the 1950's you probably would not have got near the animal farm in the library. Don't know if you're aware but Australia has around 1.2m millionaires. As a percentage of population, that's more than any other country in the world. The wealth is being spread.
    particolor
    13th Jun 2015
    8:59pm
    Thanks ! Now I know where the Owlhoots can get the cash from instead of Robbing Pensioners !! :-)
    Patriot
    13th Jun 2015
    9:02pm
    Frank
    A "backyard Loo" on a "Postage Stamp" block in Sydney or Melbourne is just about worth that amount of money. Frank, it really means that Australia is the MOST EXPENSIVE country in the world to live in - this includes private homes.
    It really shows how the ELITES & Banksters have "TOTAL CONTROL" of the "Real Estate Market" in our country.
    "Just get a better paying job" (as Joe would say and Tony agrees with) - One of those we've just exported to India or China.
    Frank the number you quoted just means that young people - generally - will NEVER own their own HOME any more.
    This is No Longer the "Lucky Country". DAMN Politicians for "selling us Out".
    Patriot
    13th Jun 2015
    9:15pm
    particolor
    Many of these ARE pensioners living in Sydney or Melbourne.
    When these properties were bought, the were a "Normal Block".
    However, with the real estate SPECULATION, these pensioners now have a NECESSARY ROOF over their HEADS that is worth that much.
    particolor
    13th Jun 2015
    9:44pm
    Well why didn't he say that ? Those people couldn't help it when then the Real Estate Agents went Berserk !! Do You think this is the reason for People Wanting More to get Less !!
    Adrianus
    13th Jun 2015
    10:13pm
    Nothing to do with houses. These people have a Million plus dollars to invest. I guess they also live in a house, which could be valued at $1,000,000 plus, and yes some of them will be aged pensioners I suppose..
    Patriot
    14th Jun 2015
    6:59am
    Frank,
    $1m used to be a lot of money.
    However, it in not currently if you look at what it buys and compare it with 50 years ago when the term "was coined"!
    So it really "feeds" the Wrong Message these days as this old concept is still locked in our brains!!!
    Misty
    14th Jun 2015
    6:14pm
    Patriot sorry to tell you but to most people $1m is still a lot of money, I don't care what you compare it with it is still more then most of us will ever have or see in a lifetime.
    Patriot
    14th Jun 2015
    8:18pm
    Misty
    Obviously that is correct.
    However, the purchase value of $1m has vastly reduced during the past 50 years and so there - or course - would be more of them.
    To be a Millionaire (in Aust Dollars) in the Phillipines would be something to "Crow about though".
    This although the wealth of the nation is also being concentrated in a mere few individuals of the total population!
    Anonymous
    15th Jun 2015
    4:09pm
    If I was retired and lived in a pokey little terrace house in Sydney and was offered a million or so for it I would jump at the chance to sell and get something else. I would have no need to live that close to the CBD and all the hustle and bustle.
    But that is me.
    Patriot
    15th Jun 2015
    4:19pm
    Radish (F)
    Such a decision SHOULD be and STILL IS your choice.
    I - personally - like the bush & my comfort (roomy home) whilst the "Concrete Jungle" would "Drown & Kill Me".

    As you suggested: "Different Strokes for Different Folks".
    particolor
    15th Jun 2015
    6:54pm
    Same here Patriot ! If they doubled the Pension to live in the City I would knock it back and stay in the Sticks ! :-)
    buby
    18th Jun 2015
    11:34am
    I dunno bout that Frank I haven't Won TATTSlotto, YET but i'll have another go at it this weekend lol
    BDW
    13th Jun 2015
    1:25pm
    The sentiment is great but my first thoughts were they will barter goods purchased with their welfare card in exchange for alcohol or cash & will probably be worse off!
    So I think a system to improve the education of the young in these socially disadvantaged areas is the only way to go.
    Anonymous
    13th Jun 2015
    5:29pm
    Yes education is the way to go but after talking to a friend who works as a relief teacher on remote settlements in the NT it is a losing battle.

    Getting the kids to even come to school is extremely difficult and getting them to stay in the classrooms is near impossible.

    She has been spat on, sworn at and treated with utter disrespect.
    Started out her teaching full of enthusiasm and wanting to make a difference...sadly disillusioned and said if not for the money she would have thrown in the towel long ago. Now she is about to retire and looking forward to giving it away.

    Alcohol is ruining the communities..kids getting no sleep, violence, and coming to school with no breakfast....I do not have the answer and I wonder if there ever will be one.
    particolor
    13th Jun 2015
    7:53pm
    Stop taking their Cigarettes and Booze off them before they come into the classroom and their behaviour will Improve out of sight !! :-)
    Anonymous
    15th Jun 2015
    4:17pm
    Particolor, wash your mouth out LOL.
    You cannot do that...that is taking away their rights.
    They take absolutely no notice of anything they are asked to do....I would love to see CCT cameras set up in all classrooms and let the public know what actually goes on in these remote communities.
    particolor
    15th Jun 2015
    6:50pm
    They would Squirt Indian Ink at them !! :-)
    particolor
    13th Jun 2015
    8:00pm
    Robbo up the top there !!
    Great Idea why should the Government pay for pensioners or dole bludgers ?
    Have a Guess where they will get it if the Government doesn't ?

    16th Jun 2015
    8:09am
    They will soon be available on the black market.....I'll have 6 please.
    particolor
    16th Jun 2015
    8:25am
    I'm glad you weren't a New Zealander when You ordered those Six Cards ! :-)
    Fair Go
    10th Jul 2015
    6:10pm
    Please people, the aged pension IS NOT A WELFARE PAYMENT, and nor should it be. I live alone, on a single pension, and my only luxury is a drink in the evening. Surely, pensioners are not to be included in this "welfare card". Where else in the developed world are pensioners deemed to be on welfare? The way our government is trying to brainwash the population regarding aged pensioners is disgusting, to put it mildly. I have seen and talked to many pensioners in Europe, and envy the way they are treated and the amount of pension they receive. We are actually near the bottom regarding government paid pensions in the developed world. Not a good statistic.
    particolor
    10th Jul 2015
    6:23pm
    I'm doing a SPECIAL on Begging Bowls this week !! :-)
    buby
    16th Jul 2015
    10:22am
    Yes i understand what you mean Gena, So they, those that NOT waist the money have a cheek to stick up with a card. Perhaps we should also send one to MR Abbott, who choses to give it away when our country needs it the most. Unbelievable. And sticking it to our disabled, they should be ashamed of themself's. I believe the pensioners have a right to do what they will with it, i'm sure they don't throw it away, like some we know.....mmmmmm Mr Abbott???