ACF exposes Australia’s polluters

The Australian Conservation Foundation exposes Australia’s 10 biggest polluters.

ACF exposes Australia’s polluters

We’ve all become accustomed to environmental whistle blowers, and endless reports and reviews on the state of our climate are nothing new. But late last week, something somewhat different occurred when the long established Australian Conservation Foundation (ACF) launched its report entitled Australia’s Top 10 Climate Polluters. Not surprisingly, the seven most serious offenders are energy generators and the remaining three are major mining corporations.

What is most revealing, however, according to the report, is that between them they are responsible for 29 per cent of Australia’s total greenhouse gas pollution. In fact, both the brown and black coal plants of Energy Australia, Macquarie Generation, AGL Energy, GDF Suez Australian Energy, Stanwell Corporation, Origin Energy and CS Energy produce higher emissions intensity than China, and twice those of other Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries.

The ACF report also compares this years’ ranking of the 10 biggest polluters with their position in the 2012-13 list and profiles in considerable detail, each company’s business activities, their public stance on climate change and energy policy in Australia and, perhaps most revealing of all, their donations to political parties.

Launched on the ABC’s Lateline by the ACF’s new president, Geoff Cousins, this authoritative report makes for very sobering yet essential reading.

To find out more about Australia’s Top 10 Polluters, please visit the ACF website

Read the report.





    COMMENTS

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    particolor
    24th Mar 2015
    10:35am
    That picture looks like the Unit upstairs on Dole Payment Day ?? !! :-)
    Pass the Ductape
    24th Mar 2015
    12:35pm
    You're really 'smokin' today particolour!! Good one.
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    10:52am
    So who do you think stumped up money for the election of the current government? You guessed it!
    And why did thid government repeal the Carbon Tax, which was working as intended, for which we were ALL compensated and which was well accepted by nearly all of big business in Australia? You guessed it!
    And who are taxpayers now subsidising to the tune of $8 BILLION A YEAR? Again, you guessed it........THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY which is destroying our environment. And the final kick in the teeth is that coal (and oil) prices are falling through the floor regardless and a heap of coal mines in Queensland hve closed down.
    And readers wonder why I pull my hair out as the game goes on regardless of how much of the planet is destroyed as long as the mining barons make their pound of flesh.
    particolor
    24th Mar 2015
    10:57am
    Where are You going to get Your GAS from Mick when they have FLOGGED off all the GAS overseas at 1 Quarter of the price YOU PAY for it ?? {:-(
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    11:11am
    Good point. Australians are routinely sold out by govermnents. The Howard government let Gorgon (world's) third largest LNG deposit go offshore. There went my superannuation. Thank you so much John Howard.
    KSS
    24th Mar 2015
    1:11pm
    Funny how you ignore the report that says 8 from the 10 top polluters did NOT make any political donations in 2013/2014 Mick. And the two that did gave relatively the same amount to both sides......
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    1:26pm
    The last federal election was in 2010. How about you dig up the figures for 2009, 2011 and 2012. Funny how these are (conceniently) absent.
    You are correct that the coal industry supports BOTH SIDES OF POLITICS. This should be of concern to all Australians as it is clear we are being done over NO MATTER WHICH SIDE IF POLITICS IS IN GOVERNMENT.
    KSS
    24th Mar 2015
    1:30pm
    We are commenting on the report detailed in the article above Mick - no other at this time. So good of you to agree I am correct in the assertion that both sides of politics accepted relatively the same amount of donations from 2 of the top 10 polluters. Of course I was only quoting from the report. Oh, um.. that's the report we were asked to read and what most here have commented on..
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    11:00am
    Try and be a little serious about this issue particolor. You know that those who plunder the planet own their own governments and mostly control the big media outlets. It is a casino......and the casino always wins with little folk who are easily conned and led to the slaughter.
    Eh gad......where's the soap box? On second thought where's Frank and his aliases towing the goverment's/polluters' line?????
    particolor
    24th Mar 2015
    11:07am
    Who isn't serious Mick ?? Except Your Invite there to the Brethren !! :-)
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    11:11am
    Hmmmmmmm.
    Adrianus
    27th Mar 2015
    11:02am
    mick you should get serious mate and stop all the drama queen stuff. Pollution is pollution! It is what it is. Nobody wants pollution. The question is what to do about it. How do we reduce pollution without hurting people? Why make pensioners pay for others' solar panels or 'return to the grid' arrangements?
    Emps
    24th Mar 2015
    11:10am
    Trust ACF to come up with a bias report. These polluters are providing this country (the whole of Australia) with energy. Demonise them if you like, but we need power. Please don't respond with....what about renewables. Here we are talking base power, not energy to power a toy train set.
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    11:19am
    You are living either in cocoon or you do not do your research.
    Are you not aware that renewables are marked for extinction by the current coal owned goverment? Have a look at what percentage of energy in Queensland which is generated from household rooves. It's a lot.
    If you are fair dinkum then ask this government WHY its Howard government let the Gorgon LNG deposit go offshore. That is the real question you shoukd be asking.
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    11:21am
    In case you lack understanding LNG is still polluting, but much cleaner tha coal.
    particolor
    24th Mar 2015
    11:23am
    I'm not going to argue here ! I'll just be a Silent Observer till I come back and tell You ..Told Ya !! :-(
    Emps
    24th Mar 2015
    11:28am
    I am qualified and have the knowledge to understand power generation and distribution. Whatever argument is put up, if all, or even most of the coal fired power stations were taken offline,the country would grind to a halt. The only real alternative,and is my preferred option would be nuclear.
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    11:40am
    You are gikding the lily Emps. So who said that you close down all coal fired power stations overnight?
    The heart of the issue is that there has to be a MOVE AWAY. There current government and its previous incarnation have LOCKED US IN to the dirtiest of all energy: coal. Why???? Election funding!!!!! Provided to BOTH sides of politics,
    Emps
    24th Mar 2015
    12:04pm
    The reputation of dirty coal fired power plants stems partly by people imagining stokers with blackened faces shoveling coal into a fiery furnace, or possibly machines doing the same thing. In actual fact coal is processed into a powder and is injected into the burner. The residue is a white fly ash, normally taken away and used in concrete manufacturing. The other bi-product is microcells and sold to cosmetic firms who add them to face powder,etc; and also used to make reflective paint as used in road markings. The smoke from the stacks is usually a white smoke emission. The stereotype pictures of polluting cooling towers is of course misleading as it is only steam rising from the superheated water.
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    1:30pm
    Are you employed by the fossil fuel industry???? Your comment is a joke!
    The problem with coal has nothing to do with smoke. This is about the quantity of CO2 and other pollutants relesed into the atmosphere. But yoy know that!
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    1:30pm
    Are you employed by the fossil fuel industry???? Your comment is a joke!
    The problem with coal has nothing to do with smoke. This is about the quantity of CO2 and other pollutants relesed into the atmosphere. But yoy know that!
    Emps
    24th Mar 2015
    6:24pm
    Well! i never knew that!! wow. Tell me how the Co2 gets into the atmosphere. Scotch mist ??
    mangomick
    24th Mar 2015
    9:14pm
    What the hell are you talking about Emps. It's not what you see coming out the stacks but what you cant see. With fabric filters installed in the flue gas ducting particulates are very low but it's the NOx and SOx that gets into the atmosphere and forms acid rain as well as the CO that contributes to Global warming but more importantly to acidification of the sea that is the real problem. The photo in the story shows a lot of water vapour coming out of the cooling towers which is always good for a picture but is a joke when trying to make out how dirty things are but it is what you can't see that is the problem with coal. There should be no more coal fired stations built and a sustained move towards renewable energy.
    Emps
    24th Mar 2015
    11:04pm
    I am talking about emissions. All emissions from coal fired power stations output from the stacks. The number of CFPS and their distribution across this country leads to very diffuse pollutants into the atmosphere in our part of the world, nowhere near enough to cause acid rain. Renewables replacing base load power plants is a non,and never will be starter.
    Emps
    24th Mar 2015
    11:13pm
    Since i was a major contractor (my own company) at Queenslands largest power station (Tarong) for several years, yes, i do know what i'm talking about
    mangomick
    26th Mar 2015
    2:02am
    The reputation of dirty coal fired power plants is deserved because they are exactly that, dirty. Anyone who lives close by will tell you about the coal dust that emanates from power plants and any white smoke emission from the stack of a coal fired power station that you refer to probably means these days that they are running over or close to being over their environmental licence for particulates and their bag filters are holed. But it's not the dust from the coal handling or stacks that are the problem or reason why they are dirty it's the amount of NOx SOx and CO/CO2 that finds it's way into the atmosphere. Take a look around any town with a power plant and see the orange cloud that lingers around the place ,that's your NOx and that is eventually going to come back down to find it's way into the ocean where scientists have already determined that the acidification is weakening the exoskeletons of crustaceans and weakening corals. I've been operating large coal fired boilers for many years and I'll be the first to admit how dirty they are. And don't kid yourself that when there is any precipitation around that the NOx and SOx that comes back down to ground doesn't in any way damage the leaves of trees. I'm not just talking about Australia . NOx and SOx can travel great distances before coming back down to earth. No we don't experience acid rain to the same extent of say Sweden and luckily we are isolated from most of the world but we still get it.
    Emps
    26th Mar 2015
    7:58am
    At Tarong, a power station in country Queensland, you will never see an orange cloud
    over it, nor will you see any sign of coal dust. I don't know which one you have in mind, but at Tarong the coal is fed in directly on conveyor belt from the adjacent mine. The whole place is kept spotlessly clean
    mangomick
    26th Mar 2015
    12:44pm
    You need to take a trip to Gladstone. Before bag filters when Power stations relied on electrostatic precipitators to control particulates you could always find your way home without a compass or GPS by the plume of dust exiting the stacks. There is no more visual polution from the stacks but the orange plume of NOx can be seen out wrapping itself all along the horizon particularly on days of minimum wind.And while all coal is rail trucked in and belted to the bunkers, everytime it changes from one belt to another fine coal dust exits the system. On days of strong south easterlies just walking around our home has your feet black. I'm not whinging about it ,that's what has put my kids through Uni and has set me up for a very comfortable retirement, but let's be honest, coal fired stations are a very dirty high polluting industry but luckily for me and obviously for you,they pay very well. Where else could i get the money i do just for watching water boil.
    mangomick
    26th Mar 2015
    12:53pm
    There's actually a few ex Gladstone guys at Tarong. Some operating and one who is with the Control Systems group. Ask any of them about the orange plume that circles Gladstone.
    Ruby
    24th Mar 2015
    11:24am
    Who's producing the other 71%?
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    11:43am
    Start with your car Ruby. Then look at all of the other oil fuelled machinery. Then add in fires and of course Frank's bogus reason why we should keep polluting: volcanoes (BS).
    Adrianus
    24th Mar 2015
    2:14pm
    Ruby, for sure it wouldn't be anyone connected with ALP or Greens. Even their flatulence deodorises the atmosphere.
    KSS
    24th Mar 2015
    1:03pm
    I agree Emps, Australia needs to stop pussy-footing about and get serious about nuclear power. Other countries have had it for decades with very few (if any) 'accidents'. How many miners have died worldwide in say the last 20 years? How many gas rigs and their workers have gone up in smoke in the same period? And how many from nuclear generators? Nuclear energy is cheap, clean and safe.

    I would also like to see the Building Code of Australia changed to include requiring solar panels for all new buildings (residential and commercial) and the same requirement for all substantial renovations to existing property. No payments for excess paid into the Grid (store your excess for future use or lose it) and charges made for amount used from the grid in times of low sun -but no supply charge.
    MICK
    24th Mar 2015
    1:45pm
    Nuclear? I'll agree if the waste is stored in your backyard.

    Solar is the go and if there were an installation in every roof we would be well on the way to getting rid of coal altogether.....replaced with gas generators......oh yes, that is the gas which is now going to Asia because previous governments (Howard) let our world class deposits go to offshore companies.

    Batteries are the right way to go. At present these are available but at the same as colour TV's were whey came to Australia: expensive and needing further development.

    Anything other than coal.
    KSS
    24th Mar 2015
    3:01pm
    "Nuclear? I'll agree if the waste is stored in your backyard."

    Yup I'll agree to that just as soon as you agree to the medical nuclear waste being stored in yours.
    KSS
    24th Mar 2015
    3:34pm
    Oh and mick, what exactly is a 'world class deposit' of gas?
    Emps
    24th Mar 2015
    6:28pm
    Gas is too expensive to run a power station, its been proven
    Emps
    24th Mar 2015
    6:31pm
    Spent fuel rods from a nuclear power station can be stored safely
    particolor
    24th Mar 2015
    7:42pm
    In the Office Safe !! :-)
    Ruby
    24th Mar 2015
    1:38pm
    Mick. I don't own a car. I am visually impaired and have been since I was nine. I use public transport. Volcanic eruptions and bush fires are never counted form greenhouse gases. They would put the idiotic greenies propaganda where it belongs. In the rubbish bin. Whoops that would add to landfill
    KSS
    24th Mar 2015
    1:44pm
    There is also the very real issue of flatulence from livestock Ruby. The amount of methane they produce is a real and growing contributor to greenhouse gasses.

    24th Mar 2015
    1:46pm
    the biggest polluters are the Greens - who pollute our political system. Go Mike Baird on Saturday and despite the best efforts of ALPBC and others Tony Abbott is still standing and will be Shorten.
    The pathetic carbon tax racked in $6b and much of it wasted for .00001 change in carbon emissions -good riddance and the rubbish about taxpayers subsidy is nonsense - during the height of the mining boom BHP alone was paying $450+M tax per day and was the major reason Costello was able to put $20b in the bank.
    KSS
    24th Mar 2015
    1:59pm
    bob, I always doubted the worth of the carbon tax. All I could see was that those subjected to paying it simply outsourced their debt to the customer and continued their work practices in exactly the way they always had. I have not seen any evidence of any permanent change to pollution from those companies either before, during or after the tax.
    Adrianus
    24th Mar 2015
    3:47pm
    The tax was to be progressively higher each year, increasing the burden on households to unbearable levels.
    Anonymous
    24th Mar 2015
    5:42pm
    KSS - good points and Frank - your quite right and I should have mentioned that had the carbon tax increased to $25+ it would have been most expensive in world - in some places carbon tax today is 13 cents (why bother).
    FatCat
    24th Mar 2015
    4:22pm
    I think I am going to have to 'unsubscribe' from this site. It is becoming as 'left' as the ABC.
    Anonymous
    24th Mar 2015
    5:45pm
    Please don't FatCat - we need your views to add balance to the lefties - in my view some in labor party eg those who identify as right or centre left are for the most part moderates - the problem is the extreme left (many have left labor and become part of the Greens (who are economic morons). Hang in there!!
    Emps
    24th Mar 2015
    6:34pm
    I agree strongly with Bob
    Adrianus
    24th Mar 2015
    9:56pm
    FatCat, I also agree with bob and Emps. I understand how you may feel though.
    mangomick
    26th Mar 2015
    6:46pm
    Geez FatCat are you looking for a bit of sympathy.... ...Don't let the door whack you on your bum on the way out.......... In case you haven't heard Malcolm Turnbull ,yes an LNP Minister for Communications no less,has stated that the ABC has been looked at and he has found no bias. in fact he has stated that allegations/complaints of bias against the ABC currently run about 50/50 as being biased pro LNP and prop Labor. So suck it up.
    Adrianus
    27th Mar 2015
    4:06pm
    Malcolm Turnbull has yet more bad news for the ABC. Best he doesn't lead in with criticism of their performance. Best he uses the old Kiss, Kick, Kiss method?
    Mak
    24th Mar 2015
    4:44pm
    Almost everything that people need and use comes from minerals in the ground, except trees.
    The minerals and timber need processing which requires machinery which need power to operate.
    The "Making A Big Deal About Polluters" so-called 'experts' make manufacturing and production companies sound like criminals, but they themselves use the products, so how far back in time do we go, to when people lived in caves, but, wait, they discovered how to make fires, didn't they, oh yes, nasty polluting smokey things, and what is the black stuff pouring out of the top of lots of fiery mountains.

    If those 'expert' hypocrites were to be honest with themselves they should switch off everything that uses that deadly monster called Power, stop driving vehicles, walk around naked and eat fruit and berries.
    They will probably come across many animals which blow gas from their rear orifices, sounding like their CO2 combobulated guesswork.

    Also if David Fallick wants to be correct, he should never write," ....is that BETWEEN them they are responsible for 29 per cent of Australia’s........"

    He is listing ten polluters, therefore BETWEEN can only involve two, for more than two, the word is AMONG.

    Quote : Not all the CO2 released from burning coal, oil and gas stays in the air. Currently, about 25% of the carbon emissions produced by human activity are absorbed by plants, and another similar amount ends up in the ocean.

    Quote : The new study estimates that over the past 110 years some climate models OVER-PREDICTED the amount of CO2 that remains in the atmosphere, by about 16%.
    particolor
    24th Mar 2015
    7:11pm
    Your Right Mak ! :-) But not all Berries are Safe !! :-(
    Couldabeen
    24th Mar 2015
    7:24pm
    I've read the report and find it very short on substance. The Foreward contains numerous errors in fact in claimed causes and effects of climate change. The ACF may mean well, but appear to be driven more by ideality than practical reality. At this stage there is no alternative in the generation and supply of electricity in Australia to the use of coal burning power stations. According to CSIRO information, the Australian forests actually absorb all of the CO2 generated by our industries. There is also scientific opinion that our limestone rich soils absorb a similar amount.
    Several natural gas power stations have been closed down and the power generation transferred over to co-owned coal stations when the gas could be sold on the international market for much more than the energy sale could return in the local market. Ironically, according the the Australian Institute of Engineers, all of the Australian coal burning power stations could be converted to burn local NG within an 18 month time frame and subsequently meet the 2050 emissions reduction targets by 2030.
    But it would cost us the consumers.
    No where around the world are renewables such as solar and wind producing 24 hour power. Wind especially is viable for the investors only while they receive unsustainable Government subsidies.
    And despite the assertions of one other commentator, not everyone got compensation for the Carbon Tax. Neither I nor a friend, both superannuants living on our pensions at the time, received any such payment.
    A little comment on Alcoa and their high emissions, they produce aluminium and the extensive use of this lightweight metal contributes to savings of up to 10% in fuel efficiencies in current and new generations of transport vehicles (according to at least one major Japanese motor manufacturer).
    The Rudd 2007 policies included a desire to impose a methane tax on everyone who had more than a set number of ruminants. Subsequent research at James Cook University found that the estimated amount of methane produced and which the tax would've been had been over estimated by greater than 30%. Many of the figures of greenhouse gas productions are rough estimations and can not be substantiated by actual measured outputs.
    mangomick
    24th Mar 2015
    11:08pm
    You like Tony Abbott need to keep up with technology....
    The 20MW Gemasolar plant with molten salt storage has been in commercial operation since May 2011 and supplies 24 hour solar power to about 27,500 Spanish households every year.
    wally
    24th Mar 2015
    8:30pm
    Since the villains of the above article are the power suppliers using coal fired power plants, I am certain that it is now time for Australians to grasp the nettle and start building and using nuclear power plants. We have been hearing about how we should be using solar and wind generated electricity for so long it is fast becoming a sick joke.
    Labor had six years to devote to developing these forms of electrical generation. Can anyone tell us what percentage of electricity has been wind generated (in 2007, 2013 and 2015 for comparison's sake) out of the total electricity produced in Australia during those years? Likewise, facts and comparisons for solar generated electricity as a percentage of the total of electricity generated in Australia.
    It seems that those espousing the replacing of coal fired power plants with wind and solar have a long way to go. I might even suggest that their proposals are totally impractical and would be financially irresponsible in the extreme. But it seems that the Greenies believe that it is possible to have their cake and to eat it too.
    mangomick
    24th Mar 2015
    9:00pm
    Love the photo used in the story but most of the "pollution" shown in the photo is steam coming from cooling towers.
    particolor
    27th Mar 2015
    4:43pm
    Cool ! :-)
    Chris B T
    24th Mar 2015
    10:47pm
    Don't dig anything out of the ground if you can't or won't control the waste product.
    The polluters are a now mentality.
    Australians own the resources not mining companies.
    When it is all gone you can fill the big holes with the waste product (there are some big holes out there)
    Renewables is the future and the mining companies know that,that's why they are extracting at this high rate. The puppets are forever tied to Mining Companies .
    The under ground water and Great Barrier Reef mean nothing.
    particolor
    25th Mar 2015
    2:53pm
    I tried to them that, But Ithink they have all got Shares in CHIN WAAAA !! :-(
    wally
    25th Mar 2015
    11:31am
    Hi Chris. I agree with your ideas that the mining companies should be held responsible for restoring the land (where they have gouged out minerals in open cut mining) to its original condition. This is especially true where the proposed sites for open cut mines are in prime agricultural land. At least the food crops grown in these places represent a renewable resource year after year. Unlike coal, where once you dig it up, it's gone.
    If you were genius enough to demonstrate how solar and wind power created energy could be produced both profitably and more cheaply that coal, You would wind up richer than Bill Gates. But in the foreseeable future, renewable energy as a viable and competitive alternative to coal and nuclear power for electricity generation remains a dream. Maybe some day, but can we afford to sit on our hands and wait until that happy day arrives? I think not.
    Chris B T
    25th Mar 2015
    1:01pm
    The cheapness of Fossil Fuels or Uranium, Dosn't include the WASTE PRODUCT or
    THE STORAGE, REGENERATION OF THE MINING SITES.
    Until these costs are added your comments mean little.
    Take alook around the World at old mining sites, most are wastelands.
    Extra 6 Coal Loading Ports on the Great Barrier Reef, who will pay for the
    Dead Reef.The Coal Miner.
    Lets take all the costs involved.
    wally
    25th Mar 2015
    10:56pm
    In my younger days, my mates and I would go down to where water had pooled in the old strip mining pits. We'd throw in cans and bottles and shoot at them with our .22s. The landscape was barren and ugly and there was no vegetation growing there at all. It was a Hellish example of desolation in the 1960's and I doubt if it has gotten any better in the intervening years since.
    Adrianus
    27th Mar 2015
    11:09am
    Wally, I've seen disused open cut copper/gold mines filled with water creating beautiful blue lakes.
    Chris B T
    27th Mar 2015
    3:21pm
    Frank
    Did you have a drink or swim.
    The copper sulfide lakes are all the rage now.
    Emps
    27th Mar 2015
    4:39pm
    If you're a wine drinker you will have already taken in some copper sulphites,as all wine grape vineyards are sprayed with it.
    HOLA
    28th Mar 2015
    1:19pm
    My block of Units should be put on the 10 top Polluters list. There are '7 units in my section and only three of us know when rubbish day comes around and which day recycling comes around. The other units continually put rubbish in the recycling bins and the council trucks refuse to empty them. I had to ring the council complaining of the smell of rotting food.I know these people are renters and don't speak English but the Council keeps putting Yellow
    Stickers on the bins saying Unacceptable Rubbish.
    particolor
    28th Mar 2015
    4:53pm
    SHOCK HORROR !! :-( I thought I wrote that when I read it !! You get off Light though !! There's 12 Units here and they all but 2 come from the PIG FARM !! :-(
    Steal Your Petrol ! Spit on the Paths ! Trash and Butts for carpet ! Pee on the lawns ! 3 of them had their Power cut of Yesterday ! :-) Should be Quit tonight ? :-) They have many other Disagreeable Habits but they too numerous to mention !! Bye!! :-)
    HOLA
    29th Mar 2015
    9:20am
    Hey Particolor, maybe we live in the same suburb? I know how you feel. These people show a total disregard to the law. I bet they didn't even vote yesterday as when I went to the Voting Booth at my local school, I was shocked to be the only one voting. I didn't turn my lights off last night for one hour, and I'm sure one light globe wouldn't make much difference as the lights on the driveway remain on all night. Am I just getting old and crotchety ? We were brought up to care about our fellow citizens and be proud of what we have achieved in life. Ho Hum. But I still manage to always look on the brighter side of life and be grateful for what I have.And with that Sermon, I'll close for the day . Cherrio!!!!
    particolor
    29th Mar 2015
    2:45pm
    The lights on the Driveway is another matter here ! They spend half their time broken off the poles and laying on the ground !! :-( I think they are Vampires and don't want us to see what they are doing ! Vote ? They wouldn't know what that Meant?? I voted early for someone that didn't want to DRILL HOLES ALL OVER THE COUNTRY SIDE !! :-) And stuff up the water Aquifers forever !! Seems to have worked in a few seats ? :-)


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