21st Aug 2012
Denied the right to die
Denied the right to die

Since having a stroke in 2005, Tony Nicklinson has suffered from locked-in syndrome, a condition whereby he is unable to speak or move below the neck, but his mind is fully active and responsive. Mr Nicklinson communicates by blinking and requires constant care. While the condition is not terminal, Tony Nicklinson believes he has no quality of life.

It is the loss of this quality of life which led Mr Nicklinson to mount an unsuccessful challenge through Britain’s High Court to have the country’s euthanasia laws overturned. Such an outcome would have meant that any doctor who assists the 58-year-old to end his life would not be prosecuted.  Upon hearing that his challenge had been denied, Tony said he was “devastated and heartbroken” and would appeal the decision. In a statement Mr Nicklinson said “I am saddened that the law wants to condemn me to a life of increasing indignity and misery”.

Read the full story at The Age.com.au

Opinion: Should euthanasia be legalised?

The tragic tale of Tony Nicklinson highlights the need for a radical rethink on the violation of a person’s human rights when it comes to choosing when and how to die. Only he can truly understand the horror of being trapped in a body which does not respond to the brain’s commands and the indignity of having someone take care of his every personal body function. What adds gravitas to the argument is the fact that Mr Nicklinson is of sound mind and can fully appreciate the enormity of choosing to end his own life.

He is not seeking an end to a miserable life in a moment of depression, nor is this a knee-jerk reaction to bad news. This man has lived with this indignity for seven years and is fully aware that there is no immediate end to his personal hell, which could continue for a further 20 years.

The serious topic of euthanasia is often confused and belittled by the argument that we do not allow our animals to suffer, so why not afford the same rights to humans? Whilst the care and consideration we give our animal companions is commendable, it can’t compare to the severity of ending a human life. Animals are not able to express their wishes, but in many cases humans are and have done so. Yet we continue to deny those suffering this basic human right.

Euthanasia and the right to die conjure up many arguments, be they legal, moral or religious. Finding a solution which satisfies all three would be near impossible, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. By failing to properly address the topic, we are condemning people to a life of  “increasing indignity and misery”. We are also increasing the likelihood of people who receive a terminal diagnosis taking their own lives, while they still can, which is often too early and incredibly traumatic for those they leave behind.

Too often society tries to force it’s values and beliefs onto others who simply do not agree. Those who object to euthanasia on religious grounds are entitled to those objections, but not everyone is religious, nor do we all follow the same religion. It is time to remove the hysteria surrounding the right to die and deal with it as another medical procedure, which can be fully investigated, and practical support offered to those who are faced with the decision.

Is it time to legalise euthanasia and give people the choice of when they die? Or should death be a natural occurrence?





    COMMENTS

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    Jen
    21st Aug 2012
    11:51am
    The question is, do we have the right to prevent someone ending their life legally and with dignity. Who owns our lives anyway?
    pop
    21st Aug 2012
    11:51am
    everybody has the right to live and everybody should have the right to die if a quality of life is non-existant and can communicate this wish to a medical practitioner
    doclisa
    21st Aug 2012
    12:19pm
    i think the right to die. no ifs
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    11:54am
    Euthanasia is a euphemism for murder or suicide. Dumbing down the language to make it palatable to the masses is a bit like Hitler's "final solution" - if we are going to be honest let us call it as it really is, not some nice soft furry other option.
    Drew
    21st Aug 2012
    12:07pm
    I tend to disagree. The word suicide in the generation I have been raised in refers to someone taking their own life because of a mental illness (depression etc), not because of a quality of life issue, which is what euthanasia is used for.
    Jen
    21st Aug 2012
    12:10pm
    That's correct Drew and in murder there is a victim and a perpetrator. If a person is asking a doctor to end his life, the person is benefiting from the act, therefore he is not a victim nor is the doctor a murderer.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    12:20pm
    Webmaster Drew.

    I think you are trying to stretch psychiatric diagnosis to the nth degree. Suicide happens because of many factors, not just depression.

    The end result of murder and suicide is death - why dress it up as something it is not? If people want to legalise killing of oneself or another have the courage to call it what it is.
    Oldie84
    21st Aug 2012
    1:34pm
    I agree with Mek. I was a child during Hitler's reign and what this Regime did is beyond comprehension. I am now 79 and it haunts me still. My wife, an ex Sister, is in favour of the right to die. And don't tell me Hitler's Philosophy could not happen again. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Whatever spin one wants to put on it.
    Oldie@79
    Grumpy
    22nd Aug 2012
    9:04am
    Mek, I have read this and your later posts (which changed the nature of my response to your comment.)
    I note from references to prayer that you are probably religious. This inclines you to know what is best for others rather than letting them decide for themselves. Please do not try to decide for me. I am not religious and can therefore take a more objective view.
    Your references to Hitler obfuscate the issue. Hitler's final solution was a decision taken by Hitler on the future of others. It therefore was conspiracy to murder.
    Yuo, and other correspondents seem to get drawn off the track by the words murder (highly coloured and emotive, often resorted to by religious lobbies whose arguments lack any intellectual subsance), suicide (appropriate, provided not limited by age specific terms of reference; (Webmaster Drew must be Gen X or Gen Y as they appear to be the ones most focussed on depression and mental disorder) and euthanasia (a correct term derived from Greek and therefore devoid of any emotional feel for Anglo Saxons.) We might have a more rational debate about this very important subject if we referred to, perhaps, "voluntary death". This is exactly what we really mean.
    Murder is the death of one caused by another with the intent to kill. It is not relevant to euthanasia. It might only come into play where a murderer tries to make his crime look like euthanasia.
    For my part, I empathise with your particular situation, but reach a personal conclusion diametrically oppose to yours, as does my partner. Neither of us wishes to stand by while the other awaits an undignified, at best, or excruciating and undignified at worst exit at the whim of any religious interests, the medical profession, the legal profession or bureaucratic, pedantic lawmakers. We are entitled to better than that and are prepared to take responsibilty for the outcome, which the lawmakers, politicians and religious lobbies are not.
    Let us shed all the emotional and religious baggage and consider objectively how anyone wishing to doff their mortal coil, rather than waiting to let it slip off can be accommodated by a scheme which has sufficient checks and balances to eliminate as much risk of abuse as possible.
    Mek, we only ask for the choice. Existence of that choice does nt threaten you, or those who think as you do in any way. You simply do not avail yourself of that choice. Your way deliberately forces your views on me and my life.
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    12:44pm
    Grumpy.

    It is sad my posts made you even grumpier. That is sad. You say I am "religious" - I am not such thing.

    Religion in the main, including the traditions of men in the Body of Christ, is man-made. That interests me not a bit.

    I have a relationship, not a "religion". I guess you will not understand the difference and I understand that. As I have said in other posts here, I have been where you are and probably in my ignorance would have said much the same thing.

    Isn't it strange how the Truth gets our backs up! I know when I was trapped in unbelief I used to get cranky with people I now know were Christians, but in my ignorance I too saw them as "religious" and was spiritually blind to the difference. Only the Lord Jesus by the power of His Holy Spirit can open our spiritual eyes, but we have to desire it. "You have not, because you ask not."

    I didn't once, I did and now I know my Lord in ways you could not even imagine.

    So as I said below, if you and your partner are happy with seeing yourselves as animals then I understand how human life would be dispensable to you. There is always the vet.

    However, Christians are entitled to have their voice heard. It is only in recent years as Australia has slipped ever further into the murk of secularism, atheism, and all the other "isms" which people hide behind to avoid their Maker, that our right to challenge the secular world and its suppositions has become such a no no.

    Well it may cut it in the 52 countries of the world where Christians are daily being tortured, imprisoned, raped and killed for following Jesus, but last time I looked Australia was still a democracy and my voice has as much right to be heard as yours. Have a great day. I hope one day you will, as I did, find out there is so much more than what our fallible senses disclose to us to, then I know your handle will be "Joyful" not "Grumpy." Take care. :0)
    Tac
    21st Aug 2012
    12:12pm
    Why is it that so many people assume they have "rights" but don't take responsibility.
    Surely in this case the man SHOULD have a "right" and he IS taking the responsibility.
    A very clear case where the right should not be taken away.
    ragsw
    21st Aug 2012
    12:15pm
    I agree with Drew regarding what suicide is. The word "murder" is very emotive. What right do 'we' have to stop a person from doing something to themselves which does not harm anyone else? Have you ever watched a person die slowly, either physically or mentally? I have and you wouldn't wish it on anyone.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    12:24pm
    Oh so being emotional about the death of another by their own or another's hand is not nice, comfortable, palatable? If human beings are not permitted to be "emotive" about such a life and death subject we are destined to become a planet of robots.

    For your information yes I have watched a loved one suffer MS at its extreme level and on top of that cancer. She died a natural, painless, peaceful death because that is what she prayed for. She had no fear, she knew where she was going. It helps to have hope.
    kriskris
    21st Aug 2012
    12:18pm
    What about a person who isn't capable to choose for some reason, for example severely mentally disabled and or disturbed but appear to have no quality of life? Who then decides? If another person has to decide I can see that euthanasia could be misused.
    Chiz
    21st Aug 2012
    12:24pm
    This scenario emphasizes the need for everyone to create an Advance Directive while still able to do so. It is not fair to leave such a decision to others, including doctors. Sheila
    MrsB
    21st Aug 2012
    12:24pm
    If that was my life I would definitely not want to live anymore, where is the quality when you cannot converse, or take care of yourself.It is not suicide or murder, if you had this kind of life with no change in the next twenty years what would you do. I am glad Tony has been able to express HIS desire to die with dignity and hope he gets his wish very soon.
    I heard recently of a husband whose wife has a worse degree of quadriplegia, she cannot talk, swallow all she can do is blink her eyes for yes and no, her husband visits her everyday and nobody has bothered to ask her what do you want to do.
    People have the right to die with dignity if they know there is no hope anymore for a proper existence, and they no longer want to "live" in that way.
    Oldie@83
    21st Aug 2012
    12:25pm
    In Queensland we have a 'Form 4 Queensland Powers of Attorney Act 1998 (Section 44 (2))' It being an ADVANCED HEALTH DIRECTIVE. In it there is a very comprehensive section dealing with your wishes in case of Terminal, Incurable or irreversible conditions. We can fill this in and the Doctor takes a copy and the other given to your person nominated. One section has this Comment: "Quote" Record your wishes here.(For example you may wish to write something similar to the following: I value life, but not under all conditions. I consider dignity and quality of life to be more important than mere existence. "Unquote" I would presume this takes care of most situations. If you have this type of form in your State I recommend that you purchase one from the newsagent (as we can in Qld)
    babin
    21st Aug 2012
    12:42pm
    If the people who are against euthanasia were in Tony Nicklinsons shoes they would have a different opinion.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    1:54pm
    Many have been, are and will be. I lived and cared for someone who was much the same. It is a terrible situation my heart goes out to all who suffer. But as a human I must say "no" to murder or suicide.
    Michael
    21st Aug 2012
    7:16pm
    We all say no to murder and regret suicides but neither are euthanasia. I don't think you understand the difference, Check your dictionary!
    seth
    21st Aug 2012
    1:43pm
    No matter what name you put on it, I agree with MEK. it is suicide whether by your own hand or someone else s, it is something YOU want. when people hang, jump in front of trains,shoot themselves we call it 'suicide' Now having said that and calling it what it really is, I do think the choice should be a personal choice when life becomes a terrible burden, imprisoned in your own mind, unable to attend to any small detail for yourself.The decision should be one that 'you' can convey to your family, Being left to the medical to decide will open a can of worms
    Jen
    21st Aug 2012
    2:57pm
    What is so wrong with suicide? Surely we reserve the right to end our own lives? It has nothing to do with anybody else. It is our own business. If I ever reach that stage, it will have nothing to do with anybody else. I'm affronted by those who think they have the right to poke their noses into what doesn't concern them in any way.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    3:10pm
    Jen
    So if a loved one of yours held a gun to their head, said they were about to swallow a bottle of pills, stood on a cliff ready to jump - you would stand by and say 'that is ok, it is your choice, I will not try to stop you" - could you really say you not lift a hand to rescue them?

    In your eyes then our government should not be spending money on the Suicide Prevention Strategy? Is that really what you believe? You have never been, as I have, face to face with someone about to kill themself. It would take a very hard-hearted person to take that cold stance.
    Jen
    21st Aug 2012
    3:15pm
    MEK, if a loved one of mine was in that position, I would have already moved heaven and earth to help but that, sometimes, is not enough. A loved one of mine would also not do it in front of me. Nice little scenario though.

    There is no shame in coming to the end of your track and wanting to end it. And if I ever reach that place, I'm sorry but it will have absolutely nothing to do with you.

    Actually, it takes a warm and loving heart to accept that someone dear to you wants to end his life.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    3:24pm
    Jen
    Thank you for your response. Of course I can appreciate you would move heaven and earth if you knew someone was contemplating suicide presuming you had that knowledge. I think you will find in the great majority of cases those around the person who suicides are devastated as they did not see it coming. Many serious about suicide do not necessarily share their dire straits with others - it is useless being wise after the event.

    So is it the business of Governments, (both major parties have)to support and fund the Suicide Prevention Strategy? You did not answer that. If it is ok to suicide why should society through government intervene to prevent it??? I will be interested in your response.
    Jen
    21st Aug 2012
    3:33pm
    If family of a man like Tony didn't know his desires, I would suggest they are not very close to him. And if a man in the situation Tony finds himself somehow manages to suicide, I would be smart enough to know that this is what he wanted and be happy for him that the misery was over. Can I ask you a question: What is so good or important or worthwhile, (obviously, I don't have a clue) about living a life as Tony does? I wonder what you do when your pets are suffering and nothing more can be done - do you just let them die in agony, or have them humanely put down? Put them out of their misery?

    As for Suicide Prevention: all cases are not the same MEK. A teenager with the blues, who gets dumped by her boyfriend, attempts suicide. She's depressed, lonely, feels empty and thinks she has no future - that person is a world away from someone like Tony. For the teenager, there may be help available. For Tony, there is none. So lets compare apples with apples?
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    3:52pm
    Jen Thanks again. I understood from your comment "what is wrong with suicide" you were making a general statement. You did not designate at that point any individual.

    My reply was about suicide in our society in general and the very serious attempts to prevent it by our current and preceding governments.

    I do not know the circumstances of Tony's circumstances. All I have seen are press reports. He may well think there is not point to his life, but then what makes his plight any different from any other person who feels at a particular point, for the sake of physical or emotional pain that their life is not worth living??

    How can we say, "well that suicide is ok, that one is not." That is my point. Those who warn against murder/suicide called "euthanasia" are looking at the bigger picture. No man is an island, the decision will affect us all and it is well to consider this. It is a pandora's box, very hard to put the lid back on once it is off. It is no good comparing it to pets - man, for me anyway, is not merely flesh and blood. There is life after death. People who look only at the mortal coil do not take that into consideration either as their perception is limited to what they see. Taking human life or cheapening it is not a black and white issue, nor should it ever be.
    Jen
    21st Aug 2012
    4:07pm
    Ah, I think we have come to the point that we must agree to disagree. Your feelings are based on faith which you've been taught, and mine come from real life. You see, I could not let my pet suffer any more than I could let/insist my parent, brother or sister suffer. It is not my place to insist anybody or any thing suffers. As people, we have the ability to choose, sadly a pet can't, so we need to make that decision, as thinking human beings, for him. Tony can make that decision for himself but the law is preventing him doing what he wants with his own life. This needs to change. I know it's an enormous thing for Governments to take on, but they must. People now can choose against euthanasia, but they can't choose for euthanasia and this is wrong. Yes, it needs to be carefully legislated but it must be done. But what Government has the courage and decency to do it? They are all covering their own backsides to ensure they keep their seats at the next election. Not looking forward to a place in the future possibly in their own lives. And, I'm sorry, but religion should not come into it when it comes to making laws in Australia.
    Jen
    21st Aug 2012
    4:09pm
    Before I head into the garden to get some veges for dinner, would you mind answering the question I posed earlier?

    Can I ask you a question: What is so good or important or worthwhile, (obviously, I don't have a clue) about living a life as Tony does?
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    4:25pm
    Jen - Yum homegrown veges.

    My relationship with the Lord did not come from any man-made teaching I can assure you, but I do appreciate you cannot understand the difference. I was in the same boat for many years, the Lord made the difference and only Him. I had not read the Bible even before I met Him in my own home. Once I met the Author I understood his Book.

    Now about Tony. I cannot of course speak for his suffering, but I can relate to you that I was a long-time carer for a person who was quadraplegic, blind, incontinent, the result of MS and then had the added pain of having breast cancer and having to have a mastectomy.

    Euthanasia was never an option for her and yet she suffered nearly three decades. Despite her plight she too, knew the Lord and had a peace which can only come from Him. She continued to live life and touch others despite her limitations physically. She asked the Lord for a gentle death and that was what she had. No interference, just a gentle, beautiful passing to be with her Lord. She had that assurance. It seems Tony doesn't. Perhaps that is the difference. All I know is that she lived until she died. She laughed, she cried, she touched people with her courage and strength. It was a life which many would have missed out on had she taken the option of ending her life. It was very hard work doing the caring, but I know I am a better person for having done it and have learned by that experience how precious life is for each of us.

    It is a matter of attitude and the willingness of others to be there to ease the difficult way. That enriches our society, to give mere man the right to take life in peacetime would cheapen it.
    Michael
    21st Aug 2012
    10:27pm
    Seth,
    suicide by someone elses hand is murder!
    Smee
    21st Aug 2012
    2:32pm
    Yes he should have the right to decide his own fate. His quality of life is non-existent. Let him go. Speaking of quality of life; what about the quality of life of his loved ones and family. The ones who constantly tend, feed and worry about him. Surely their 'quality of life' would improve with his passing. Without being able to fully convey this fact, maybe Mr Nicklinson thinks the same.
    lillian
    21st Aug 2012
    3:12pm
    I can speak only for myself,euthanasia is not a suicide
    if I became sick and is no hope of getting better,why cant I choose
    the way I want to die? other people should not have a say at all.
    AlanT
    21st Aug 2012
    4:27pm
    When my time comes and there was no dignified, painless exit, I would choose to take a pill and go to permanent sleep. Do not bring religion into this , as some people do not believe in a god. My life ,my choice! And my family would understand my decision.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    4:42pm
    Whether people believe in God is their own choice and limitation. I know because I was an unbeliever for too many years. I met Jesus and that gave me the realisation of just how precious life is. It is not about religion, I am not interested in religion, that is mostly man-made. I have a relationship with Jesus, not a religion. He is not religion, there is a chasm between the two.

    So if you chose to take your life I can assure you you would stand before your Creator and have to explain why. If you are prepared to take that risk, without checking that you may be horribly wrong, then you must accept the consequences. Life without Him can be dreary and hard I know only too well. With Him walking beside you, it is still hard, but there is a purpose, a reason a joy, a peace beyond human understanding him. I enourage you, stay away from religion, (I do) but don't miss out on the Relationship.
    seth
    21st Aug 2012
    4:42pm
    Suicide IS the act of ending one's life, EUTHANASIA is an acceptable smoke screen.
    To take one's life, it has to be a personal decision coming out of utter desperation
    and with no hope to improve.
    Oldie@83
    21st Aug 2012
    4:48pm
    Please read my report above; I've checked the Internet, in the Google search typed, "Advanced Health Directive" There were many sites one asks choose your state and it showed all states except NT. So if your concerned about the above subject get a form and fill it in.
    Boof
    21st Aug 2012
    4:49pm
    YES.
    seth
    21st Aug 2012
    4:57pm
    MEK, I understand where you are coming from, I think those who have had the 'experience' can Identify with your faith, Unfortunately a lot have no idea of what it is like to have 'faith'
    However I do not believe that the God I know ,will punish those who in deep suffering end it all, even though their faith may be strong.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    5:19pm
    Seth Thank you for your comment. I know I would not have believed it before when I was in unbelief. It is a whole different life.

    On punishment, well for me I just go by what the Lord says. Do not kill. I certainly would not put Him to the test, but I understand how you see His love prevailing. But then it is not He who tempts people to suicide or murder is it.
    PJ
    21st Aug 2012
    5:22pm
    Jen I go along with most of your comments & Seth I believe as you do.The God I believe in has the love & compassion and will welcome us all when our time comes

    Mek you say you met God in your own home. Can you please enlighten myself & millions of others what does God look like ? This is an honest question to your statement.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    5:29pm
    Cherry May
    Thank you for your question. We cannot see God with our natural eyes. When one is born again by the Holy Spirit by repenting and asking Jesus to be Saviour one's spiritual eyes are opened. Only way you and the millions of others who are curious can know Him as I do is to ask with a sincere heart. Try it you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. He stands waiting for you to ask. Right now. He will not push Himself onto those who wish to cling to their unbelief however. Hope that helps.

    If God was totally understandable to the human mind, He would not be God. I know this is hard to accept for as I said, I too walked the walk of unbelief with its emptiness. No more though, I would never swap what I have now for that old life I left behind.
    justme
    21st Aug 2012
    5:43pm
    I don't think it's a matter for others to decide. Who's life is it.

    21st Aug 2012
    5:49pm
    This man has expressed the wish to die, every day a myriad of health carers are assaulting him by intubating, gastro feeding him and all other procedures carried out against his wishes to keep him alive. He can communicate his wishes by blinking if he is in sound mind and legally requests that the assault stops and it is ignored surely his basic human rights are also being ignored? To keep him alive against his will so medical staff, carers and religious can be satisfied is inhuman.In the past pneumonia was regarded as the old and terminally ill peoples "friend'. By not intervening when it is specifically requested not to, by a person while mentally capable, cannot be regarded as assisting them. It should be possible to draw up laws which protect a persons free will with safeguards included. My feelings are that everyone should have the right, under extreme circumstances, to make their choice.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    6:10pm
    Vivity I can see where you are coming from, but for those who choose rather to endure and not end it are we saying they are wrong? When did the individual choice of one human be the barometer for us to make law concerning life and death.

    We all make choices, we do not always get what we want in this fallen world. Let us not make it worse by cheapening human life and legalising murder? This is not a straighforward question and should not be based on one person's experience, awful as that may seem to them and us. To lessen the value of one life opens the door to the involuntary deaths happening in the countries where "euthanasia" (murder/suicide) has been legalised.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    5:52pm
    justme
    So to kill oneself or have another murder one is no ones elses business? Taken to its logical conclusion that argument would say we are to put no value on the life of another - if they decide to end it we are to remain indifferent? I find that rather harsh and uncaring.
    Jen
    21st Aug 2012
    6:00pm
    MEK, I find it extremely harsh and uncaring to insist Tony and others in Tony's position stay alive in pain and misery against their wishes. What all important "value" do you put on Tony's existence of misery? To me, there is only value there, if he thinks there is. And he obviously does not.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    6:20pm
    Jen. It is indeed a moral dilemna. I assure you I take no pleasure in seeing another suffer and I have had to endure that up close and personal in my own life as I explained to you in an earlier post.

    However, the reality is, once we take that step of saying murder/suicide is ok where does it stop??

    Holland and other countries where "euthanasia" is legal have had the experience of hundreds of documented involuntary deaths.

    Have you never known an elderly person being "persuaded" to move to a nursing home supposedly for their sake by family members. It is really more about the wants of the family. Often the older person who has moved from their home into a unit or nursing home regrets it. I have known many who have.

    Now many families are lovely and caring, but let us be realistic there is such a thing as elder-abuse the desire of family members to access an elder's assets. Older and disabled people are extremely vulnerable, they feel "I do not want to be a burden" so they are in danger of being manipulated into ending their life if this is legalised. It would be wonderful if there were not these sort of predatory families in the community, but the reality is there are more than people like to acknowledge.

    Without the protection of the law, these vulnerable people would be at very real risk.
    Jen
    21st Aug 2012
    6:47pm
    That is why we need correct, foolproof legislation. Yes, we need to get it right. The situation you describe though, has little resemblence to someone like Tony, who has begged for the right to die quickly, painlessly and with dignity. Nothing more to it, or less.

    MEK, you say "I assure you I take no pleasure in seeing another suffer and I have had to endure that up close and personal in my own life as I explained to you in an earlier post." Yet you DO expect the suffering to continue. The lady you speak of might have had faith to carry her through but many of us don't. What do you say to them?
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    7:03pm
    Jen.
    Can you think of any legislation developed in our country that is totally and absolutely foolproof?? I must admit I can. Man is fallible, he cannot design the perfect and in the case of matters legalising killing near enough is not good enough surely?

    What happens to Tony the other side of death?? Do you know? Can you say with absolute certainty there is no life after death?? It is beyond humanity to prove it. For me I know it is there. I would hate to see Tony have temporary relief only to find himself in a worse predicament. Now before you dismiss that, you do not know, no one does except our Creator and He told us there is life after death and our choices determine where we will spend it.

    If on the other hand you consider that we are merely flesh and blood, nothing more, of course you would not take that into account. But you cannot be sure.
    Tony would benefit from prayer, which is too easily dismissed by the unbeliever. He will certainly be in my prayers for the Lord to intervene. What can you do for him??
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    7:04pm
    Jen Apologies, that should read "can't" when it comes foolproof legislation. Ooops :)
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    7:04pm
    Jen Apologies, that should read "can't" when it comes foolproof legislation. Ooops :)
    Jen
    21st Aug 2012
    7:17pm
    MEK no, I do not know, and nor do you. And if I was to believe in a god, it would not be a vindictive, chastening, punishing god. That type of god turns me away even further. If there is something all-powerful out there, I very much doubt there are any "punishment legers" kept or painful afterlife planned for non-believers, most of whom that I know, are lovely people! Sorry, I find that just loopy. I can only say, that yes, we need to get the legislation right. If you think it's never been done before, why do you think it cannot be done? If it was foolproof, you'd still be against it. Anyway, until tomorrow, goodnight!
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    7:33pm
    Jen
    Well I know my God (the only one that can be known by the way) is not vindictive. He is a totally just God. Jesus came and gave His life for us, that is the greatest love ever.

    We cannot pick and choose our God if we are serious. As our nation has laid down laws to protect us and enable us to live reasonably well together, so God has told us what He requires of us. If we had no law to set boundaries we would live in total confusion and everyone would do what they wanted. Hedonism.

    To be a Christian is not complicated, sadly religion has made it appear so. All anyone has to do is turn from sin and ask Jesus to be Lord and Saviour. So simple a child could understand it and many do. That is when we know our Lord and Creator, then we know there is so much more to life and believe me, it is wonderful beyond belief. I do however, respect where you are at and the limitations of that stance, as I too was where you are for many years. I look back now and wonder why I waited so long. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to fear, nothing to lose and everything to gain in this life and the next. When you know Him you know unconditional love. I cannot lie and tell you any other.
    toot2000
    21st Aug 2012
    6:21pm
    They shoot horses don't they?
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    6:25pm
    Toot 2000.
    And your point is?????
    toot2000
    21st Aug 2012
    7:18pm
    Sorry for being vague, we don't allow our animals suffer yet that kindness isn't extended to us humans.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    7:58pm
    Well we are not animals as we have a soul. Life does not finish when our body dies.That makes a huge difference. People try to ignore it, belittle it, mock Christians, but it does not change the fact we are more than flesh blood and brain.
    I understand what you are saying, but can you see there is a difference. You know you are not the same as your dog, or cat, or horse, lovely and loved as they may be. Every human has a sense that there is more to them.
    Nautilus
    21st Aug 2012
    7:16pm
    The report was silent on whether this unfortunate man has refused treatment.
    Michael
    21st Aug 2012
    7:24pm
    Mek.
    you said you would not swap your life for the one you left behind--------is that not another form of suicide/
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    7:41pm
    Michael
    A fair question, thank you. No my old life was really incomplete. It lacked a dimension - I was spiritually dead previously. Looking back, I had many things, good job, family, material things, but they were temporal, not lasting. Now I have the best there is, my life now is complete. My old life needed to give way so I could receive wholeness. When an unbeliever, we operate I think in just two dimensions
    seth
    21st Aug 2012
    8:07pm
    MEK your new life shines through, however it is very hard to convey the changes that come into one's life with the fulfillment of accepting the truth, which can only come about by genuine seeking.It is then you realise we have a compassionate God full of forgiveness even to the most unforgivable

    Michael to answer your question to MEK, It wasn't suicide but choosing life not death..
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    8:14pm
    Seth, yes it is hard to convey. I was going to say what you said to Michael, but I thought he would not understand. I know if someone had told me before it happened I would not have believed it. God loves each of these people so much and like I was, they are blind to His Truth in Jesus. I wish only ever for them the very best. I cannot imagine how I got along without the Lord as my constant Companion. It has not always been easy, but with Him all things are possible.
    Thanks for your comment.
    Michael
    21st Aug 2012
    10:39pm
    MEK,

    If as, you say, you were dead before you found God and then found a new life would it not be possible for a person relatively dead to be euthanised and find a new life with your God?
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    4:14pm
    Michael.

    Thank you for your question. You misunderstand "death" - there is the death of the flesh, which we will all pass through. The spirit lives on, that is our essential self. It is spiritual death I was set free from before my Lord rescued me. We don't "find" Him He come to each of us in His time and is is up to us whether we accept life in Him or an eternity spent in complete darkness forever alone. Not something I would wish on a living soul.

    The natural man/woman is dead in their sins, but they do not realise it because they are spiritually blind and death. Only the Lord Jesus can free us from that predicament. There is Salvation in none other. Sounds wierd to you? Yes it would have to me, before I experienced it and found there was so much more, just as millions have down through all the ages.
    lindylou
    21st Aug 2012
    8:11pm
    And here we have the vocal minority denying the silent majority, and claiming the majority, totally ignorant of all forms of faith and hope, need the guidance of those who are blessed. Fine, babies, you go with your credes, just shut the hell up and let us get on with our lives and deaths by our freedom of choice. After all, under your beliefs, that was exactly what "He" gave us.







    'vocal Minority
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    8:19pm
    Lindylou
    No we will not shut up, why should we? Do you expect us to deny what we know to be true? He (our Lord and Creator) said, "I put before you life and death - choose life." Sadly so many like you are and I was before I knew Him blind to what that means. It is not just death at the end of this life. There is so much more you and those who choose death are missing out on. I thank God He offered me life and I chose life in Him. Nothing to do with creeds I assure you. If you are game you can ask Him, if you are sincere He will answer. Why do you choose death??
    June
    21st Aug 2012
    9:06pm
    Mek
    I would like to thank you for your many words of wisdom and hope life is good to you. Your heart is pure and kind.
    Taskid
    21st Aug 2012
    9:11pm
    Junehenwood

    Thank you very much, it is not my wisdom, it is what the Lord wants lost souls to hear. I just wish to see them healed as I was. I will keep this poor man Tony in my prayers. If you are a praying person I ask you to do the same. We know our prayers will not go unheard. Thank you again.
    kenny
    21st Aug 2012
    9:38pm
    I agree if there is no cure, it is sad that a person wants to take his own life euthanasia the right to die. Nobody owns your body your loved ones will make a decision. I agree with euthanasia If it happens me.
    JJ
    21st Aug 2012
    11:10pm
    It should be the right of all to decide when and how they wish to end their lives. And to ask for help to do so if they are physically unable.
    Frog
    22nd Aug 2012
    10:54pm
    Hera! hear!
    Michael
    21st Aug 2012
    11:14pm
    JJ--------- I am also one of the not-so-silent majority in favour of euthanasia. I'm sure my God will also understand.
    Abe
    22nd Aug 2012
    12:24am
    Seven years is a long, long time to contemplate euthenasia. This man has deserved the right to end his life if he so wishes. He has no quality of life and his decision to end it should be upheld. The top medical authorities should assemble a panel to make a final decision in cases like his and perform the operation in accordance with his wishes. His request is cut and dried. Too many people are being employed keeping him alive, they don't want him to die. The legislators are too gutless to pass the required legislation to allow this poor man to reach his goal!!!
    toot2000
    22nd Aug 2012
    7:46am
    In Holland, euthanasia by doctors is only legal in cases of “hopeless and unbearable” suffering but there is currently a proposal that pushes the boundaries even further. Former government ministers, prominent citizens, doctors and legal scholars want the law changed so that ALL Dutch people over 70 who feel tired of life, have the right to professional help to end it.
    Michael
    22nd Aug 2012
    10:54am
    I have a mother in her late nineties, in reasonable health with the usual hearing and sight problems of the average person of her age. She has often said she is ready to go and is only patiently waiting to meet her maker, after having a good life. If the option to leave was available she would consider taking that option. She has had enough!
    lindylou
    22nd Aug 2012
    8:03am
    Let's all move to Holland, and leave those with who preach and protest, showing no compassion nor understanding, behind. Perhaps we will find some peace from those who try to bend all of us to their beliefs. I am not trying to change them, not wanting to disrespect their faiths, I just want them to show the same respect for my choices, and not be forced to live under laws that deny me my rights.
    Frog
    22nd Aug 2012
    10:53pm
    Hear! Hear!
    AlanT
    22nd Aug 2012
    9:50am
    Well said Lindylou
    Marion
    22nd Aug 2012
    10:13am
    I agree too; well said Lindylou. Fortunately more and more MPs are becoming aware of the fallacies in the arguments of the tiny minority like MEK (eg voluntary euthanasia is no more 'murder' than killing in self-defence is 'murder') and the fact that it is unacceptable in a democratic society to privilege one set of narrow and extreme religious views over others. The world's changed and it's time the law caught up. The evidence is well and truly in that legal medically assisted dying is safe and responsible. It is barbaric to condemn Tony Nicklinson or anyone else to years of torture parading as care and concern.
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    12:57pm
    Marion

    It seems impossible for atheists to understand the difference between "religion" and having a relationship with Jesus. Much of "religion" is man-made, it in no way represents the wonderful relationship our Creator allows us if we choose to trust Him. Tis a leap, I know I was where you were once, but I would not go back there for all the riches in the world. Nothing could replace what I have now.

    Now you say as most atheists do, that anyone who you, in my case, wrongly perceive as "religious" that we should not be heard and yet you talk about democracy, surely a contradiction???

    The world sure has changed, have you looked lately, the planet is dying thanks to man's disregard of his Creator and His creation. I personally having lived a long life, do not see that it has changed for the better in many ways. We have seen some wonderful things which have enriched the lives of humans, but there is a very ugly side too. Taking human life on the "want" of a person is one of those ugly things.
    Marion
    22nd Aug 2012
    1:42pm
    You have leapt to false, illogical and unreasonable assumptions about a number of matters, including what my beliefs are and that I do not support your right to express your views and to live your life by them, no matter how 'wacky' I may find them. My comment was about the fallacies in your argument and that MPs should not be supporting your right to make decisions about your life in accordance with your particular views while depriving everyone else of the same right.
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    1:55pm
    Marion
    Thank you for your response. Whatever you beliefs are I know you do not have a relationship with Jesus, so not a Christian. If you were we would not be having this discussion.

    I am afraid you put far more trust in politicians than I do. Would you honestly put your life in the hands of those we have in parliament currently, on all sides??? I know I wouldn't. Then I know I have Someone I can trust, I guess sadly you don't so you are left with mere fellow human beings, that is a bit scary isn't it??

    We will never know if it is the "majority" as those asking to be allowed to kill or be killed insist. Only a Referedum would show and bear in mind, few Refurendums in Australia have decided in the affirmative. I am happy to see it go to test the majority instead of assuming the most vocal are the "majority." Are you?
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    10:36am
    Look if you folks wish to see yourselves as no different from animals, why don't you push for vetinarians to be given the legal power to put you and those who think like you down when you decide you wish to leave the rest of us.

    Let us that know we are more than our loved dog or cat get on with living as our Creator meant us to.

    That should solve all your problems and leave our doctors free to do the work for which they were trained, heal not kill.
    Michael
    22nd Aug 2012
    10:58am
    I think you, Mek, should qualify your statements as merely your opinion, not fact. Doctors were also trained to give their patients peace of mind which is also a form of healing.
    Michael
    22nd Aug 2012
    11:00am
    MEK ,
    I think YOUR creator has a lot to answer for!
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    12:19pm
    @Michael.

    Doctors cannot give peace of mind. They are trained to heal the body, not the mind or soul, with the exception of psychiatrists and psychologists. Thankfully I do not need to get my peace of mind from a mere human much as I value the work of these professionals, that comes from the Source of all true Peace. :0)

    He is your Creator too you know. Take it up with Him, or don't you have the courage? Cheaper to try and tear down those who know better than you I guess. When you know what you are talking about I will be happy to hear from you again.
    seth
    22nd Aug 2012
    11:47am
    Why is it that when someone gives their opinion and their reasoning for it, there are those so willing to come in with an attempt at a put down, all I have seen so far is that Meck, for personal reasons has stated his position on euthanasia, I think those who get upset by some of his remarks should stand back and look at themselves and ask "Why am I so upset" After all this is a debate on pro's and con's of euthanasia. and there is bound to be conflicting views, someone with a 'spiritual" view is just as involved as those who are against any form of "religion' it is anotheraspect.
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    12:25pm
    Seth

    Thank you for some common sense. I find it difficult to understand that atheists are intent on "rights, choices, toleration, freedom of speech" but apparently their high moral stance on these things does not include respect for those of us who know our Lord Jesus.

    I guess for those determined to delude themselves they are in total control of all they do and that they are merely another species of animal He is a stumbling block as He is Truth. The things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing He tells us. Oh well. I will continue to pray for their eyes to be opened. That will infuriate them, but having been where they are I know how much they are missing out on. BTW I am a she not a he. :0)
    Jen
    22nd Aug 2012
    1:15pm
    MEK, If our politicians ever have the courage to tackle this subject they will have to do so bearing in mind Australia is a secular society. But don't worry, when euthanasia is made legal, you will not be forced to do it. Remember, it is only for those who want it.
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    1:28pm
    Jen. Thanks again for your comment. I hope you enjoyed your veges. :0)

    I would not call it "courage". it takes courage to swim against the masses, but yes if they are foolhardy enough to introduce such a dangerous piece of legislation, this is a democracy and it would apply.

    However, if a blind person "wanted" to jump off a cliff, would we let her/him? Of course not (although by their comments I gather there are some here who would) because we can see the danger that person is in and she/he can't. So it is with we who know we are more than animals, blessed as they are to us, we are warning the blind, because we can see the peril.

    As I have said before, if atheists consider themselves to be mere animals why bother doctors, why not push the government to legalise the vetinarians to do it.
    They can legally put animals down. Let those of us who know there is more to human beings have the medical and caring services uncontimated by the "wants" of the crowd. If they are not sufficient we at least can ask the Lord to grant more doctors and greater healing knowing He will answer us.
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    1:30pm
    'Scuse the typos. :0) I meant "uncontaminated."
    seth
    22nd Aug 2012
    2:02pm
    if euthanasia is eventually made legal it will not be out of compassionate grounds for those who desire it, but will be a tool to use in the treatment of the elderly, mentally ill, physically disabled etc, as carried out by the Nazi's.A tool now being used in some nursing homes and hospitals which are understaffed and elderly patients are dying from malnutrition {starved} and dehydration as they are unable to physically open containers {As reported in the paper a few weeks back}
    PJ
    22nd Aug 2012
    4:34pm
    Mek you voice yourself extremely well as do others whom have written in here. The talks of religion,euthanasia,those who are atheists has been spoken about & fought over since time began I am sure and will continue for years to come. Our Lord gave us the right to express ourselves in all matters. We are human and make mistakes in our life time and hopefully learn by these mistakes. Mek you seem to be calling those that has voiced their opion in here as you have, that they are atheists and has referred to them as animals & go to a vet and be put down. That is not a christian way of thinking. Mek I love and believe in our Lord but do not think of myself as superior to others that do not pray as I do. This is how I find your writings that you seem to believe you are above all that do not follow your thoughts. I will pray for you Mek not to be so self consumed in yourself. God is love & loves us all including all that breathes on this earth. Remember he created all.
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    5:25pm
    Cherry May
    Thank you for your comment. I did not call anyone anything, I hope it did not appear that way. If people are against the Lord then surely they are atheists, or sitting on the fence agnostics having a two way bet. If people wish to be put down, then I think it is fair to assume they believe they are only flesh and blood and the same as the animal kingdom. I am just going by how their arguments describe them. If they have some other view of themselves I think they are capable of explaining that. Thus far they have not. All they have done in the main is to tell me I am wrong.

    Let me get one thing straight. I love and respect my fellow human beings. As I have said, I was an unbeliever for many lost years and for many fuller years I have served the Lord as He has called me to. I am in no way superior. No Christian would make that boast. We are all of us only forgiven sinners. Of myself I am nothing. I am not telling these people about myself, only inasmuch as it may help them to see there is more in ourr Lord. He and He alone is worthy of any praise. Of myself I am nothing.

    Of course He created all, have you read my posts, that is what I have been saying. Where have I said otherwise? Where I differ from my critics is that I acknowledge my Lord and Creator and know that taking a life by human hand is an abomination to Him in any form. If you know differently I would be interested to hear it.

    I suggest many here who take offence at what I say are merely offended at the Truth I tell them. If I pretended that it was ok with our God to kill one another or ourselves I would be a liar.

    People who wish to do it "my way, not Thy way" will always contend with the Truth, that is the nature of their spirit to rebel. It was mine at one time.

    If you were offended at my words I am saddened. They were not at all meant to elevate me as a person. I maintain my right to do that, it means in no way I do not respect and care for my fellow human beings, in fact the very opposite.

    Sometimes however we have to have the courage to put back to the unbeliever what they are actually saying. They have no foundation for their beliefs that euthanasia is a humane option. If they have let them tell us about them not just fire the bullets of criticism. I have stated Whom I trust. Who do they trust??? Where do they get their values???? I am waiting and willing to listen.
    Thank you again for your input, but sadly I think you read my as wrongly as my other critics.
    lindylou
    22nd Aug 2012
    4:46pm
    Thank you Cherry May. Not all of those who have differing opinions from Mek and Jen are athiests, nor are we seeking to create another Reich to rid the world of less fortunate people. We just believe in living, and dying, with dignity and respect for all living things around us.
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    5:34pm
    lindylou

    I am sure you have good intent and feel what you are suggesting is a good and humane solution to the problems of Tony and those who sadly suffer as he does.

    However, what I have tried to sound is the warning - not everyone has such noble intent. I am sure that in Germany there was a minority who were trying to warn the multitude of those following Hitler that they were heading in the wrong direction.

    Now, just as then, we need people to have the courage and say to the crowd - this is not the way.

    If that offends, then so be it. At least we tried.
    rosemaryjune
    22nd Aug 2012
    5:08pm
    A friend of our is and for many years has been a volunteer palliative care nurse, going from house to house administering various painkillers and chemotherapy treatments + plus visiting hospices assisting and sitting at cancer sufferer's bedsides witnessing them suffer unbelievable pain and suffering, sometimes even overnight until recently when her husband had a stroke and is not as independent as he used to be. She said she had very strong feelings against euthanasia until recently when a cancer patient suffered so much pain she couldn't administer strong enough pain management for him at home so she had to call an ambulance and force him to go to hospital for his own sake. He wanted her to overdose him and put him out of his pain and misery. Maybe people who are judgemental should become volunteers sitting hour in, hour out caring for people in such situations.
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    5:37pm
    Yes I know what that is like, I spent over two decades caring for someone who was severely disabled with MS and had cancer. Thankfully we both knew Jesus and had His gift of prayer, peace and comfort even during the toughest times and even to the end. That is the difference for those who forsake His gift. I wish they knew the difference.
    rosemaryjune
    22nd Aug 2012
    5:08pm
    A friend of our is and for many years has been a volunteer palliative care nurse, going from house to house administering various painkillers and chemotherapy treatments + plus visiting hospices assisting and sitting at cancer sufferer's bedsides witnessing them suffer unbelievable pain and suffering, sometimes even overnight until recently when her husband had a stroke and is not as independent as he used to be. She said she had very strong feelings against euthanasia until recently when a cancer patient suffered so much pain she couldn't administer strong enough pain management for him at home so she had to call an ambulance and force him to go to hospital for his own sake. He wanted her to overdose him and put him out of his pain and misery. Maybe people who are judgemental should become volunteers sitting hour in, hour out caring for people in such situations.
    babin
    22nd Aug 2012
    5:28pm
    I thought the discussion was on euthanasia not on a particular religion.
    We are not all Christians so why push yours?
    Taskid
    22nd Aug 2012
    5:41pm
    If you took the time to read my posts you would realise I am not "religious" - that is an all embracing term which does not describe me. Most religion is man-made so of no interest to me. As I have said, I have a Relationship with the Lord Jesus. He is not religion, and religion is not Him. I am sad you are unable to know the difference. I pray one day you will.

    I am not "pushing" anything. This is about life and death, too important to just take the easy - 'feels right let's do' it approach many pro-euthanasia proponents push. This needs much discussion and deeper thought than to just base it on what one person wants surely??
    lindylou
    22nd Aug 2012
    10:06pm
    Mek, You don't listen, comprehend or internalise anything that has been put forth. Your way or the highway, it seems. I am therefore withdrawing from this dialogue, as you are causing me to experience frustration and total exasperation with your views. I wish you well and hope I am not leaving you with the impression that you have reversed my opinion on this subject. I am just not about to waste any more of my time on you..
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    1:25pm
    That is fine Lindylou. I respect your choice to sit in judgement of me and my Lord.
    There were plenty who mocked Him and His disciples when He walked the earth. Unbelief and the mockery it leads to is nothing new. It is infact old hat. I cannot reverse your decision to be an unbeliever, only Jesus can. I merely speak the Truth, but for those who wish to remain blind and deaf to the wonders of God it is foolishness I know. Oh well, I tried, it was not to harm I assure you. One day you will realise that. I wish you well.
    toot2000
    22nd Aug 2012
    10:39pm
    Not long ago I saw a BBC doc about a British woman doctor who had a terrible degenerative disease. Coincidentally, she had nursed her husband who had recently died of the same illness and she had watched him suffer for a long time. She decided she wanted to end her life and because euthanasia is not legal in Britain, she went to Dignitas in Switzerland and the doctors there agreed that she met all the criteria . Her grown children were with her and they all held hands and it was quite disturbing, especially when the male attendant asked her “Are you ready?” She drank from the glass, lay down on the bed and died.
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    1:28pm
    And then what happened to her soul and spirit? They do not die.
    toot2000
    23rd Aug 2012
    1:41pm
    Mek, if she was a good woman, and I have no reason to doubt that she was, her spirit will go where all other good women's spirits go, hopefully somewhere nice. You see her as a lesser person for taking her own life, I do not.
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    1:48pm
    Toot Thank you for your reply. It is a nice kind thought you have, but may I ask what do you have to back up your assumption? Where is your evidence that "good" people go anywhere? Mmmmmmmmm. I know, I am a pest, I keep asking difficult questions, but people make these fairy tale assumptions without any foundation at all. I have a firm foundation for what I know to be true. Not because of me, or that I am a "good" person, no one is without sin in God's eyes, but His Son paid the price for mine and I have accepted that. I have that assurance, no doubt at all. I think before setting off assuming all will be well on the other side, one needs to investigate the best of what is on offer.
    Frog
    22nd Aug 2012
    10:44pm
    I am a 69 yr old female. My life experiences have helped to form my opinions and establish my standards etc. My body is my own and it should be my right to do as I wish with it. Treat others as you wished to be treated. I hope that my passing from this life will be without pain or misery ( either brief or prolonged) and if I need help to achieve that I hope that our current Nanny state has legislated to allow that humane act to occur without undue delay.
    gonebush
    23rd Aug 2012
    6:31am
    Yes we have the right to do as we wish if it ever comes then l wish to end it with dignity,with no pain or suffering ,l pose this question if you have a sick or suffering animal what do the vets do they put the poor animal down whats the diffrence in the long run pain and suffering becomes peace ,its seems we should have the same right after all we are animals too remember
    Jen
    23rd Aug 2012
    7:29am
    Gonebush, I wondered the same but was told that we are better than animals because we have God who wants us to exist painfully as opposed to a painless and dignified end and apparently animals don't have God. And if we think we are animals we should ask the vet to put us down.

    Bah!
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    3:08pm
    Jen

    God does not put pain upon us. We live in a fallen world, look around you, we have pain, disease, desolations, disasters, wars because of the sin of the world. God showed us a better way, but so many, as I did once, think they know best. They want to be their own little "gods". Don't write off the Living God before you let Him show you there is so much more. Man brings pain and suffering on himself because he is rebellion against his Maker. I am just a forgiven sinner, but no better than anyone else, but I know I am not a mere animal, much as I love them.
    toot2000
    23rd Aug 2012
    9:00am
    As you have probably seen on the TV news this morning, UK man, Tony Nicklinson was devastated by the High Court verdict last week, denying him the right to have a doctor to help him die. He intended to take it to the European Court of Human Rights next year but passed away this morning. If the British High Court still won’t agree, we’ve got Buckleys. I suspect it's something to do with greedy children who are impatient to inherit.
    Jen
    23rd Aug 2012
    9:13am
    I'm very happy for Tony Nicklinson this morning. Whatever caused his death (broken heart?) he's in a better place today.
    toot2000
    23rd Aug 2012
    10:23am
    Agree, I read somewhere that 75% of Australian want euthanasia.
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    1:36pm
    Thank You Jesus for answering my earnest prayer that You would set Tony free. If only these who promote killing people would understand - they have only to put their lives in Your hands the most trustworthy there will ever be. Amen.
    jingles
    23rd Aug 2012
    10:09am
    Having read the comments I would like to put the following points.....
    1. To those who believe that euthanasia is opposed to God's Law. If a person has an illness which could lead to their death and medical professionals intercede and cure him.....then this could be seen as interfering with the Will of God.
    (Yes Ii am a person of strong faith).
    2. If I locked an aged parent in a room and tortured them each day keeping them alive so that I could torture them again the next day.....then I would be arrested, charged and found guilty.
    3. If I am kept alive against my will....then my rights are being violated.
    4. To bring Hitler into the picture is not relevant.
    seth
    23rd Aug 2012
    10:41am
    Since when have medical staff cured people? a specialist can start a treatment, that can activate the immune system to carry out it's function,the human body is a remarkable 'creation' with an inbuilt healing process, that at times needs a push.
    Spend time in a rehab with those recovering from broken bodies, with most over 12 weeks you see 'miraculous' healings' others who were unable to do anything for themselves were either in a wheelchair or bedridden, not once did I hear that they wanted to die.
    The nazi regime was brought into the picture to point out that at that time they could have been put to death.
    A person of strong faith? everyone has a strong faith to believe or to disbelieve,
    The choice is yours.
    seth
    23rd Aug 2012
    10:09am
    Tony is out of his prison and his suffering thank God.
    To those who have no faith or belief in a compassionate God!!
    How can you say that he is now in a better place,? when you do not believe there can be.

    With euthanasia comes a lot of other issues, which can bring about more problems than are solved. A lot of practises have been adopted because it sounds good and caring but in the end becomes heart breaking for those involved.
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    1:39pm
    I prayed the Lord to set Tony free Seth - how gracious and faithful He is when we but ask on our own or the behalf of another. Thank you for your wisdom and true words.
    Jen
    23rd Aug 2012
    10:14am
    Seth, I presume it's me you have asked your question. "In a better place" doesn't necessarily mean heaven Seth, that's your take on it. A better place could well be oblivion, nothingness, I guess it depends on your faith or lack of it. You are probably afraid of oblivion or nothingness. I'm not. It could well be a huge relief, if I ever end up like Tony as both you and I could. My statement stands: today Tony is in a better place than he was yesterday.
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    3:15pm
    Jen
    I would hope that Tony by God's grace is in a better place for sure. That was certainly my prayer for him and I am sure I was not the only Christian praying for his situation and salvation.

    You make an assumption though that he is - could I ask on what basis you assume that he would automatically go to a "better place?"

    Surely it is not enough to merely assume without investigating if that may be indeed the case?? Just a thought. Euthanasia is too serious a subject to just make assumptions without foundation surely?
    jingles
    23rd Aug 2012
    10:17am
    RIP Tony.
    Jen
    23rd Aug 2012
    10:19am
    Also, you say "compassionate God." How do you come to this conclusion if your God prefers someone like Tony to remain existing in misery than peacefully dead? I don't need an answer, I rarely get straight answers to these questions, they must be too tricky. I really need to find something more useful to occupy my day.
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    1:39pm
    Did you ask the Lord to set him free Jen? I did.
    seth
    23rd Aug 2012
    11:05am
    Jen I noticed that you need something more useful to occupy your day, maybe I can help you? I have a large area of lawn and pruning that needs tender loving care,you are invited over, bring your lawn mower though.
    Heaven or oblivion?,
    I suppose that is the difference between those who believe and those who don't,
    Hope or blackness. take your choice.
    Jen
    23rd Aug 2012
    12:19pm
    How very predictable.
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    3:21pm
    Jen

    Before you put Seth and I in the recycle bin :) I suggest you have a look below at the results in Holland of the legalisation of euthanasia and ask yourself as a thinking person, is this what you want for our nation??? I love my nation and its people too much to want to see them live in such fear, especially those of us in senior years.
    PJ
    23rd Aug 2012
    1:40pm
    Lindylou you explained so perfectly words I would have liked to be able to express. I was & am so frustrated with Meks comebacks. Very articulate I admit but so onesided. I am out of this conversation as well no matter what your future words say Mek. Are you so egotistical that you believe you are the only one whom Our Lord looks upon. I know this conversation was supposed to be regards personal thoughts on euthanasia. Boy it sure side tracked.
    Will admit I am a bit peeved off Mek at some of your replys, so I will close & wish you the best for your future.


    RIP Tony. You are now in the arms of our Lord & suffer no more pain.
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    3:24pm
    CherryMay.
    My God, the Living God loves you every bit as much as He loves me. The difference is just that when He offered me his free gift of life I took it. It is there for anyone who seeks. I am very far from special.

    I suggest you read below to see the consequences of society descending into the right to take the life of another. It may give pause for thought and it is not my words as they seem to offend you. :0)
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    1:40pm
    To all those who fool themselves that "euthanasia" is a safe option here is some information from a country which has tried it.

    The Hague -- Euthanasia in The Netherlands is "beyond effective control", according to a report which shows that one in five assisted suicides is without explicit consent.
    British opponents of assisted suicide say that the figures are a warning of the dangers of decriminalising euthanasia, as Holland did in 1984. By 1995 cases of euthanasia and assisted suicide in Holland had risen to almost 3 per cent of all deaths.
    The Dutch survey, reviewed in the Journal of Medical Ethics, looked at the figures for 1995 and found that as well as 3,600 authorized cases there were 900 others in which doctors had acted without explicit consent. A follow-up survey found that the main reason for not consulting patients was that they had dementia or were otherwise not competent.
    But in 15 percent of cases the doctors avoided any discussion because they thought they were acting in the patient's best interests.
    Michael Howitt Wilson, of the Alert campaign against euthanasia, said: "A lot of people in Holland are frightened to go into hospital because of this situation."
    Dr Henk Jochensen, of the Lindeboom Institute, and Dr John Keown, of Queens' College, Cambridge carried out the study. They conclude: "The reality is that a clear majority of cases of euthanasia, both with and without request, go unreported and unchecked. Dutch claims of effective regulation ring hollow."
    Another study appearing in the journal shows that the legal assessments of cases reported to the public prosecution service in the Netherlands vary considerably. Cases are reported to determine whether a doctor will be prosecuted for murder. The study was carried out by Dr Jacqueline Cuperus-Bosma, of Vrije University in the Netherlands. The paper concluded that there is a need for clear protocols.
    Dr Peggy Norris, chairwoman of the anti-euthanasia group Alert, said: "We need to learn from the Dutch system that euthanasia cannot be controlled."
    "I know of patients in a nursing home who are carrying around what they call sanctuary certificates all the time, stating that they do not want to be helped to die. People are afraid of being sick or of being knocked down in case a doctor takes the decision, without their permission, to stop treatment."
    nothuman
    23rd Aug 2012
    8:10pm
    Is it my life ? Do I live it ? Do I breathe it ?
    Those of you who believe that there is no right to die are the reason that we have a world that creates depressed people, people who suffer needlessly, people who are stressed and people who are screaming out to have a world where the likes of you mind YOUR OWN BLOODY BUSINESS !
    If I dont want religion then keep it in your own pants.
    If I think that women who are raped have the right to abortion then you should mind your own bloody business.
    Who do you all think you are saying what one person can or cannot do with their lives ?
    You think you are so divine that you have some right to interfere or is it because you are so spineless that you seem to bear some cross if someone took their own life ?
    I tried to take my life and some bloody moron do good idiot intervened and now I have mental issues, brain damage from CO inhalation.
    Thanks a bloody lot.
    Religion and do good selfish morons have killed and maimed countless millions in the world. When are you going to learn to shut up and mind your own business ?
    nothuman
    23rd Aug 2012
    8:15pm
    Forgot to mention.
    Discussions like this forum don't need the likes of MEK who is obviously a religious politican to be adding his sense of babble and meaningless dribble to healthy discussion.
    Taskid
    23rd Aug 2012
    9:32pm
    nothuman

    Well I am glad you got that off your chest!!!!! Goodness me, whatever happened you - were you harmed by a Christian, or one claiming to be a Christian. You have such anger and hatred against Christianity, which for your information is NOT, (to those who are true followers of Jesus and the Living God) a "religion" - religion is man made. Christianity is God made and we have a Relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    You would be happy in North Korea then or Saudi Arabia - you are not even permitted to own or carry a Bible in those places. Is that what you want for our beautiful country.

    I hope you will not just vent your anger, but please try to see, we believers also have a point of view, it is as valid as yours and at least has a foundation. I hope you get some peace.
    Nautilus
    24th Aug 2012
    2:33am
    The key to the Dutch law is "unbearable suffering".
    It has been thrashed through. There are precedents. There is video recording.

    Frequently asked questions,
    http://www.om.nl/vast_menu_blok/english/frequently_asked_0/
    Taskid
    24th Aug 2012
    8:09am
    Nautilus

    That is not the point, that is the emotional tool used by those promoting euthanasia. The fact is the Dutch law has failed. There have been many involuntary deaths where people had not asked to be put to death - hundreds in fact. Even one would prove the law has failed to protect vulnerable people from being murdered by those wishing to play at being God.
    toot2000
    24th Aug 2012
    8:59am
    Dr Phillip Nitschke, head of Exit International, has written to Fiji's attorney-general with a proposal to set up a clininic to assist terminally ill Australians to die.

    Nitschke has dedicated his life to this cause and has suffered a lot for it, shunned by the medical establishment, the last time I saw him interviewed, he was driving an old bomb car and was barely making ends meet.
    Taskid
    24th Aug 2012
    9:07am
    It is strange isn't it, one who has been trained to heal and "do no harm" taken the oath to that affect is so obsessed with kiling his patients? I really wonder about the balance of a mind like that. I know many are seduced by his seductive presentations, but rationally it does not add up to the thinking mind. People obsessed with the death of others are not displaying a healthy attitude surely?
    seth
    24th Aug 2012
    10:13am
    Why is it that that Mek's view on euthanasia and his reason why is so hotly damned ,
    I haven't read anywhere in her posts anything condemning anyone who is contemplating or wants to legalise euthanasia, that Mek is anti euthanasia just as some are all for it, does not negate her input.
    Mek with her spiritual side could have replied to some comments that she must be doing something right, to upset the unbelievers. after all Isn't that what Jesus did?
    Taskid
    24th Aug 2012
    5:03pm
    Seth

    You are spot on - the feel the discomfort and do not understand it is the Truth which causes it, not me personally, no matter I can wear it. I have been a Christian too long to take offence at rudeness and insults. :0) Thanks again.
    jingles
    24th Aug 2012
    10:25am
    Seth.
    I don't think the surgeon who removes a ruptured appendix would consider himself to be giving the immune system a bit of a 'push'. Do you? Left alone I would offer that the person would die, as maybe God had intended.
    The discussion is not about offering euthanasia to people who don't want to end their lives....but condemning people to a life which has become unbearable by virtue of the pain and suffering they are forced to endure.
    You question my faith....I am a Christian and I believe that God is more concerned about our souls than our bodies.....after all the body is only a casing for the soul and when the body perishes the soul returns to God.
    Taskid
    24th Aug 2012
    4:47pm
    Jingles

    Interesting comment re the body, may I ask what then you make of the Scripture'

    "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body," (1 Cor. 6:19-20).
    seth
    24th Aug 2012
    10:43am
    jingles you are quite right to pull me up on my statement with your query. In regards to removing a ruptured appendix or any other diseased or gangrene organ, even cancers.
    broken bones etc. the Specialists remove the diseased part with surgery which then allows the body to heal itself {In most cases} others are too advanced with disease to benefit from surgery. The immune system may be very weak and so antibiotics are used to prevent infection from spreading.
    scicdb3
    24th Aug 2012
    1:40pm
    My Mum had an operation, but could not fully recover and was placed on life-support. She had sufficient capability to ask that the machines be turned off so that she could die peacefully. It was hr decision - the staff could have kept her "alive" indefinitely.

    Should I now let the police know the names of the doctors and nurses who acceded to her wish to die?
    I don't will I be an accessory after the fact?
    seth
    24th Aug 2012
    2:16pm
    scicdb3 Sorry about your loss, Your mothers choice against being kept alive with artificial means where otherwise you will die.
    is very understandable, If you have a medical power of attorney anyone can give instruction on what they wish to happen, that is what I have done.
    I think that is different to euthanasia where someone else has to physically assist in a person's death, no matter how desirable it may be.
    Taskid
    24th Aug 2012
    4:33pm
    Seth. You are absolutely correct. Refusing treatment is not euthanasia and I think many do not realise the difference. Euthanasia is activily administring a dose or method with the intent of killing the patient, or taken by the person to suicide.
    PJ
    24th Aug 2012
    5:46pm
    g
    jake
    27th Aug 2012
    1:10pm
    Wow! hasn't this caused a stir; how good is that? There is much wisdom out there & I have had to change my view.
    My question now is: Am I responsible: (a) only to me or
    (b) am I responsible to my broader community of family & friends.

    If (a), then everyone needs to accept that I have a right to choose or refuse, life. They must then deal with their loss & other outcomes.
    If (b), then my decision must be driven primarily by my concern for the family & friends impacted.

    In Tony Nicklison's case & no doubt, many similar situations, community understanding is probably, readily available; but, in other cases, disregard for the impact on others just doesn't cut it. It simply does not follow that we live interdependantly, (social beings to one degree or another), but choose to die in a manner that seeks to deny our value to others.
    ajw
    seth
    27th Aug 2012
    1:25pm
    In my opinion, no one is responsible only to them self, What ever they choose will have an affect on those close to them, to help ease the loss,while still capable come to an understanding, with your close family members of what you desire to happen in the worst circumstances, such as no radical resuscitation, or life depending only on mechanical support, without you would not live.
    Oldie@83
    28th Aug 2012
    12:19pm
    Quite right Seth,
    I say again, as I wrote in 2 comments earlier.
    Get an 'Advanced Health Directive' from a newsagent and fill it in. You can say exactly what you wish if your illness is; Terminal, Incurable or irreversible conditions. Fill this in the Doctor takes a copy and the other given to the person nominated by you.
    PlanB
    5th Sep 2012
    8:28am
    I want the choice--
    Taskid
    5th Sep 2012
    8:38am
    Plan B

    We all have "wants," but we cannot always have them. Sometimes I have found my "wants" are poles apart from my needs. The man this blog is about had a "want"which was denied. Then people prayed and he had the death he needed from the Lord who loved him. Perhaps he had never thought to ask his Creator. "You have not, because you ask not."
    PlanB
    5th Sep 2012
    8:48am
    Having nursed 3 loved ones that had dreadful deaths and also dreadful sicknesses and pain-I want the right to end it if I was going to suffer like they did--thats what THEY NEEDED also
    Taskid
    5th Sep 2012
    12:41pm
    Everyday, everywhere people are suffering. A child dies every 7 seconds from starvation, Christian pastors are tortured, imprisoned and even killed for their faith, other Christians are stoned, beheaded and suffer in 52 countries Women are raped in African Congo then ostracised by their families. Young soldiers are laying down their lives in Afghanistan, Syrians are being murdered or driven from their country by a cruel human regime. It is the nature of a fallen world without any belief in their Creator. Then people blame Him, say He does not exist, curse Him because they never make the effort to get to know Him. Like you I nursed a person who was quadraplegic, blind with MS, on top of that she had cancer. Yes she suffered and I lost a lot of my life over those many years. Thankfully, we had the Lord who walked with us through it and then granted her a gentle death free of human intervention. The thought of me murdering her or her suiciding was never an option. It was hard, but He showed us in so many ways, His great love and compassion. He never left us, even when family and friends were indifferent to our plight. There is no greater comfort and to take what appears to be an easy way out would have left us the poorer. I know without a doubt we will meet again when I go Home to to be with my Lord Jesus. If you do not know that comfort can I urge you to seek it. I know it is not fashionable, people scorn Christians, mock them, and I did too before I knew Jesus. I too was blind to the bigger picture. It is simple, do not need man-made religion, just repent, believe and trust me you will receive. He never turns away anyone who comes to Him truly seeking.

    I am sorry you had such a hard walk with your loved ones, I can understand how you feel, but I am just saying there is a better way. Free gift of great love and so many turn their backs on it. I did for many years. I was ignorant and blind. Thanks be to Him alone, I am not longer in that plight. I wish you very well.
    PlanB
    5th Sep 2012
    12:53pm
    I don't scorn Christians, not at all, I am pleased that you find peace in your faith.
    Taskid
    5th Sep 2012
    1:15pm
    No you didn't scorn my mentioning Jesus and I thank you for that. It was not my intention to imply you did. Just that on this blog so many have. It seems as if for some, Christians should not have a voice in any discussion. It is sad.
    seth
    5th Sep 2012
    1:06pm
    Christianity is like food in a refrigerator, you cannot eat it until you open the door.
    Taskid
    5th Sep 2012
    1:12pm
    So true Seth, oh so true.


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