Dole bludgers bleed millions from taxpayers

Recently released figures show that 105 Victorians have been out of work for more than two decades.

Dole bludgers bleed millions from taxpayers

Recently released figures show that 105 Victorians have been out of work for more than two decades, claiming the equivalent of $26 million in payments. On top of this, a whopping 48,000 Victorians have also been unemployed for over two years.

Across Australia there are 105,000 people who have been looking for work for more than five years. This is despite the national, seasonally adjusted unemployment rate falling from 5.3 to 5.2 per cent.  National Welfare Rights Network president Maree O’Halloran said that these figures indicate that Australia is in the grip of an unemployment crisis and a substantial investment in wage subsidies and work payments is needed.

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has called the figures for long-term unemployment national embarrassment and reiterated that a work-for-the-dole scheme should be mandatory for unemployed people under 50. In response to the news, Mr Abbott said “We have to do more to lift people off welfare and back into work. We also need incentives for people to go looking for a job”.

A spokesperson for Employment Minister Bill Shorten said the aim of the $3 billion Building Australia’s Future Workforce package was to provide initiatives to ensure the long-term unemployed were engaged and job ready.

Read the full story at HeraldSun.com.au

Opinion - Time to bring back National Service?

In Victorian alone there are 105 people who have been unemployed for over twenty years. When you consider that Victoria is home to over five million people, this may not sound a huge number, but these 105 people have claimed the equivalent of $26 million in benefits based on current rates.

Tony Abbott has long championed a work-for-the-dole scheme for those who are under 50 and unemployed. And I can’t say this is a bad idea, but perhaps we need to start looking at children coming out of school first. While a record number of children in Australia now attend some form of tertiary education, there are still those who leave school with no qualifications and end up going straight to Centrelink to claim benefits. Simply saying that they should have worked harder at school won’t ease the burden on the state to provide for them.

A form of National Service could be the answer. First introduced to Australia in 1965, in response to the aggressive Communism in Asia, the scheme lasted only eight years and was abolished in 1973, by then Prime Minister Gough Whitlam. While peace time National Service was seen by many as unnecessary, an amended scheme could pave the way for young, unemployed Australians to not only ‘earn their keep’, but also to build a sense of community and give youngsters training to help them later in life.

Schemes such as working on community projects, working with charities and undertaking practical life-skills courses could provide the direction that many young people miss throughout their formative school years. No longer does the family unit or school environment necessarily provide such support. Rather than have youngsters only looking for work, which may not be available to them anyway, their time could be better employed, with a sense of achievement, personal satisfaction and community contribution the hopeful outcome.

If, as expected, long-term unemployment continues to grow, then surely we need to act to stop people simply accepting this as their fate and show young people that there are other options.

Should young people who cannot find work be forced to take part in community schemes in order to receive government benefits? Or should the Government be doing more to provide actual employment opportunities for all Australians?





    COMMENTS

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    Bilbo
    20th Aug 2012
    11:57am
    Work for the dole, or National Service. As someone who has paid his fair share of tax for over forty years, and served in the military, I have no issues with either concept. Oh, sorry, do-gooders say that work for the dole is demeaning, while pacifists say the National service is not only demeaning but they also raise issues like bastardisation. Dear, dear, dear.
    You're right. Let's mollycoddle todays youngsters, let them simply walk out of school and down to the dole office. Let's not teach them respect or instill a feeling of national pride. No, I guess it's easier to simply pay them the dole than get them to help in building our great country.
    Anonymous
    20th Aug 2012
    9:17pm
    Read my comment below about one Modern Day Soldier who is dead now but not from bullets. Very similar to Gallipoli, sacrificing poor and middle class Australians for the good of the wealthy (their sons/daughters not sent) in Australian and for the benefit of other Countries (Iraq the USA & Gallipoli the UK).
    Nan Norma
    20th Aug 2012
    12:09pm
    If you look at countries where there is no such thing as unemplyment pay, you'll find every one is employed, even if its just shinning shoes. Their family won't carry them. Everybody should have to contribute in some way or another. Study, work or National Service. We all know that idle hands make mischief.
    Anonymous
    20th Aug 2012
    9:19pm
    Study, re-training, training and work - all good. National Service unacceptable. Sending poor and disadvantaged to die in illegal invasions such as Iraq.....why not the sons and daughters of the wealthy....for a change.
    fpbsix
    23rd Aug 2012
    7:59am
    yes nan but there is no free medical care , my sons mother-in -law after rearing 5 children & 72years old , was still having to sell coconuts & got phumona , & nirley died, because she couldnt pay for medical care , because she couldnt earn money while she was sick so not only was she sick but also she couldnt pay for food .
    Sillabil
    24th May 2013
    8:43pm
    I agree with you Nan, we humans have to work to survive. Work goes hand in hand with living a satisfying life. Look at all the ills the young ones go through without work, drugs, fights, no respect for themselves. Unfortunately the ethos for work should be instilled from when they are young. Work is not a dirty word, it is what makes us, no matter what what work we do. Like my father use to say to my brothers and myself, "I don't care what you become, even if it is a dunny man as long as you're the best dunny man you can be".
    Pass the Ductape
    25th May 2013
    7:32am
    Your father was a very smart man Siliabil but it's a pity this ethos means so little to many modern employers these days. They seem to prefer people who blow their own trumpet the loudest.

    They do this by utilizing an exaggerated form of resume and an ability to speak about themselves as though they are God's gift to the workforce.

    Better to be the best dunny man you can be.
    Janetta
    20th Aug 2012
    12:18pm
    If you are are on Newstart you have to show that you are undertaking some specific skills training or voluntary work or they cut you off. Anyone who is still on Unemployment benefits for that long must either have some disability or be in an area where there is just nothing to be had. I don't think training someone to use a gun is an appropriate solution but there is an Australian peace Corps...!
    Sillabil
    20th Aug 2012
    12:32pm
    Sorry Janetta, there are many, many who know how to use the system and stay on it for years! National Service doesn't have to mean guns but Responsiblity towards other and yourself, Education hopefully very varied, Control of oneself and future, oh I can think of so many things they could get from a National Service including abstinance from drugs!
    wombatwyn
    20th Aug 2012
    12:37pm
    Heartily endorse your words Sillabil. I used to work in a community centre where people came in to lodge their fornightly forms by fax to centrelink or to speak to them on the phone. Some of the spin I heard would put a politician to shame!
    workingoldie
    20th Aug 2012
    12:48pm
    They are very good at "showing" skills or voluntary work but turning up to do it is another thing. Community Based Orders given by the court is another laugh. I worked in an Op shop who "employed" these people. If they came at all they often did nothing,left early and complained about getting $3 an hour ! Dole bludgers or CBO's - they all know how to work the system ,and there are not a lot that deserve your sympathy.
    Anonymous
    20th Aug 2012
    9:23pm
    Janetta
    Well said, people who discriminate against the poor and disadvantaged by recommending FORCED National Service, need to ask whether they would send their own children/grandchildren to Iraq, Afganistan, etc to fight for the USA to gain more oil! See my comment below about the voluntary soldier.
    Pass the Ductape
    25th May 2013
    7:57am
    Sillabil - Like you say, many know how to use the system and this is the problem.
    It used to be that once you were in the army/national service/etc you towed the line without question, but today, I don't think that would apply - particularly if 'forced' to join up. They have enough drama trying to encourage duel bludgers to work for the dole as it is.
    How would you admonish someone for defying an 'order' or simply sitting down on their backside and refusing to move, if that person had been forced into a situation, not of their own making? Considering the general lack of respect for lawful authorities these days, I doubt forcing anyone to join a national service type operation would work, whilst the do-gooder brigades around the country would have a field day objecting to scenarios that might encompass 'forced labour'.
    lowflyer
    20th Aug 2012
    12:19pm
    Oh so true. Just receiving the unemployment is like giving them a fiver. If they work they should be allowed to receive a slightly higher income in order to cover the tax, because no one is going to work if at the end of the day they are worse off than beiing on unemployment.
    Personally I think that those in the age bracket 16 through to 26 should be made to do either community work or join the services as the current generation have NO respect for any one. This does not include every one but the majority just give authority the finger.
    Nan Norma
    20th Aug 2012
    12:22pm
    I like your idea.
    fpbsix
    23rd Aug 2012
    8:03am
    yes it is a good idea, but what about the OLD AGED pensioners .=that do EIGHT saturday & sunday markets a MONTH ,selling fruit & vegetables , making thousands of dollers & still collecting the pension, is that also the correct thing to do .
    wombatwyn
    20th Aug 2012
    12:25pm
    I live in a small country town. After leaving school my grandson obtained work in our local supermarket, while the majority of his friends went on the dole, one even remarking to my grandson "I would be too embarrassed to work there"! That young man has since moved into rented accommodation (with housing allowance provided), with his girlfriend and their baby (solo mom's benefit dishonestly claimed). My grandson has since obtained an apprenticeship. He sometimes finds it very hard when comparing his apprenticeship wage with his friends ample supply of money obtained for doing exactly nothing! At just 18 years of age, they have many years ahead of putting their hand out and being provided for without them lifting a finger to help themselves. Work for the dole? National Service? I am all for it.
    Oldie@83
    20th Aug 2012
    2:10pm
    Your Grandson is to be commended I hope he realises that one day he will rise above the dishonest so called "friends". Encourage him to keep up the good work.
    fpbsix
    23rd Aug 2012
    7:53am
    yes i had 5 sons , all did apprentiships , & yes it was hard , but now they are all successful & earning a good wage teaching others , one even went in as a cadet officer in the air force & now owns a computer store where he employs 15 apprentists , another teaches fitter-n-turners & has 28 apprentists , maybe it was how I reared them , even at home from when they were small they knew they had to work to get spending money , if they didnt ,make there b
    eds or help clean & cook , they didnt get spending money .
    Taskid
    20th Aug 2012
    12:25pm
    There is a lot of work out there being done by volunteers, unpaid carers and just good neighbours, but they cannot do it all.

    To call it National Service I think is to drum up visions of young people with guns and uniforms, rather it would be best I think to call it Community Services Corp. With some vision and good will we could not only save money, but give these mainly, but not conclusively, young people work experience, respects, self-esteem and in doing this we would be able to offer better and more relevant services to the aged in their own homes, disabled, schools - all it takes is vision. Sadly there is not a lot of that in our current political parties.
    wombatwyn
    20th Aug 2012
    12:30pm
    MEK have you noticed the age of the "lot of work out there being done by volunteers, unpaid carers and just good neighbours". I would say the majority have long since said goodbye to their forties and even fifties. Yes, where are the young people?
    Sillabil
    20th Aug 2012
    12:25pm
    YES and yes and yes again! I have been proposing something like this for years. I see all the misries around me of young people 16 to 25 years of age loosing spirit getting on draugs because they have no self worth. How can we expect an old brain on a young body especially therse days when most parents (not all mind you) have abdicated their jobs of rearing their children.
    Eventhough the age limit has been lifted to 17years, I can name in 5seconds about a dozen children in the area who have just dropped out and the parents let them. They say what can I do about it? Should have started sooner doing something aboout it.
    I activey help in the area with children who do want to give it a go and when they get a job they can do, they change overnight. Everybody needs to work that's how we are made, if we don't work we get sick, depressed etc.
    Yes let's help our youth either National Service or more schools like the Bradley model.
    supa2
    24th Aug 2012
    8:30pm
    Hi Sillabil, I agree with you medically retired at 50 showed me how much work does make us feel really worthwhile. I have a son rearing 3 boys all in High School next year on his own and he is finding it hard to keep them enthusiastic about school. They have computer games and so many things to distract them, the mistake made was taking the parental rights off parents, the kids tell him what their rights are, so setting boundaries and discipline is nearly impossible. He has to do 16hr (weekly I think)courses or he has his income cut by Centrelink this means he has to cover fuel costs etc. as it is not near where he lives. The kids are on their own when they get home from school until her returns. Everyone gives him advice and criticism this just gets him down and he seems to over compensate with the kids then. So what is the Bradley model?
    lasaboy
    20th Aug 2012
    12:52pm
    Speaking for one who missed the nasho's in Vietnam, but who ended up joining the weekend warriors (CMF as it was known), I think ALL school leavers should do at least 6 months in the military, although I would not agree with them serving overseas, the army taught me the value of comradeship, work ethics and standing shoulder to shoulder with someone who in most cases was just as scared as I was, you make friendships that will last a lifetime, which is something we all need
    doclisa
    20th Aug 2012
    3:37pm
    good points
    many boys and girls would learn from such a close association with other youth in an enviroment of safe and practical education as well as leadership training. excellent.
    Maggiegreen
    20th Aug 2012
    12:59pm
    There are many useful life skills a Community Services Corp. could teach people who are unable to find employment,and worthwhile experience, so that they can hold their heads up and feel valued. Sometimes they don't have a high opinion of themselves and this leads to depression. Being able to succeed at even simple things can raise their spirits. People are usually their own worst critics.
    grumpy old woman
    20th Aug 2012
    1:03pm
    Lots of options, most of them already voiced here. National Service but not limited to the armed services. It needs to be compulsory though for all, uni isn't a get-out though it could qualify for a delay.
    The Government could provide paid WORK at market rates, even if for a short time, for those who haven't been able to get a job and maybe need a more current resume. After working for 25 years I quit work to complete a tertiary degree. A recession intervened and for the next twenty years I was unable to get a long-term job. I would have loved the chance to have say three months full-time work at market rates doing something for my community. Yes, I did do part-time, casual, contract and voluntary work for the community and was also carer for my mother, but not having a "proper" job was most disheartening. I am now joyfully retired.
    I note that Sweden (I think it is) requires military service of all young people but has an opt out where the person can do service for their community. The high-profile sportsperson I heard talking about this on the radio worked as a carer for someone with a disability. The progress we could make as a nation if all people, young and unemployed, could be involved in such schemes and paid appropriately.
    I agree with most of the comments already made but Sillabil and MEK make a lot of good sense.
    doclisa
    20th Aug 2012
    1:05pm
    26 mil over 10 years sounds a lot..but on average it is about $450. a week. Not alot to live on we would all agree. The general thrust seems to be we are wasting any opportunity for these young people (as everyone is agreed that the 105 victorians must be in the 16 to 25 age bracket). This means that by not needing to relate in a usual way, ie work force to people their priorities change making them non-participating members of society at large. It is a huge waste. Perhaps by looking at the skills for work study or social agendas we are loosing, rather than punishment for being unemployed we might be able to come up with solutions. It is an opportunity here to see ourselves as truly Australian, that is generous, caring and supportive people who believe in the notion of 'fair go'. We want our society to benefit. Perhaps some training of some sort, and social meeting organised to go alongside the work in community. That would allow them to relate to people who work, who socialise perhaps mix with people of similar ages who have caring families, responsibility etc etc all the things that make us Australian. We need to engage them, we have failed so far lets get together and think it through with the generosity of spirit that is Australian.
    lasaboy
    20th Aug 2012
    1:16pm
    lasaboy
    20th Aug 2012
    1:15pm
    remove
    reply
    doclisa, you missed the part about these people being out of work for TWO decades, they are in their 30's or 40's, for them to be out of work for so long, they do NOT want to work and should be treated as they are, bludgers on an over worked system, force them into jobs and you never know, but that is beside the point we need to start with the current kids as the traits learnt now continue in to the rest of their lives, this 105 are probably lost in their own world and don't give a fig
    doclisa
    20th Aug 2012
    3:15pm
    Hi There.
    No i did not mis the point. It was irony.
    Most of the replies talk about the lack of respect etc that young people of today have. They must all be dole bludgers. The personal stories told are about young people in rural areas.
    I agree these people are lost to our society. Yes they damage, they are often lazy not very bright etc
    We have too many people in the world. The odds on some being duds is quite real. We allow any heterosexual woman and man to have children, no training, no responsibility. Perhaps if we changed the attitude that having babies was a right, an expectation and rewarded in our society the better we would be in general.

    20th Aug 2012
    1:22pm
    Let's examine a couple of points. 1. As an employer with my own business for over 45 years, I can tell you that there's a fair % of the "105,000 unemployed for 5 yrs", that you outlined - that are unemployable, not unemployed.
    You wouldn't employ them in a fit. If you did, you'd spend all your time riding them to get them to do something. Then they'd break everything they touched.
    If they weren't breaking your equipment, they'd be stealing your stock, equipment or tools. If it wasn't them doing it, they'd be organising mates to break in after hours.

    These people are undisciplined, socially unskilled, and lack any form of motivation. Yes, National Service would work with these people - but it would need to be boot camps, not Govt-organised employment.

    What is needed is subtle psychological reinforcement for the long-term unemployed, who are potentially employable. When they go to collect their dole money (and they should have to turn up in person, during the morning only, to ensure they actually get out of bed at a reasonable hour) - and they reach out to collect their "pay", the person should withdraw it, and say - "hang on, you have to sweep the Centrelink yard - or pick up the rubbish in that park over the road. When that's done - then you can get the cheque" (and it should be a cheque - no automated bank transfers).

    This idea of actually having to do some physical work, before they can collect free money from the Govt, is what is needed.
    Once the idea that work and money are linked in their feeble brains - and you don't get the 2nd without the 1st - they will then consider the fact that they will have to get a job - if they don't want to put up with mind-numbing tasks, to get their dole money.

    The idea of working for the dole is always put into the too-hard basket, because public servants reckon they have to employ overseers, pay workers comp insurance, and a host of other "too hard" additional items.
    The answer is simple. Every Shire needs more workers on their road crews, parks and garden crews, and general labouring crews.

    Just tell the unemployed to front up to the Shire work crews foreman/supervisor, and the foreman/supervisor then allocates them a job - such as cleaning out drain grates or culverts, or other simple clean-up tasks. Roadside rubbish pickup would employ thousands, and beautify the nation.

    Once they've done a few hours of this, they can then go collect their dole. The Shire foremen/supervisors already organise work crews - the unemployed can just tag along and put in their necessary hours alongside the regular workers.

    2. There are people who are claiming the dole who have acquired assets. Anyone who acquires assets whilst unemployed needs to be targeted immediately as a drug dealer. Mokbel earned $100M whilst pulling the dole. He bought new cars, properties, racehorses, and spent large amounts of time gambling (and corrupting horse racing betting so he could launder money).
    Anyone on the dole who makes any purchase over $5000 needs to be targetted and investigated immediately as a potential criminal.
    There are many more smaller Mokbels out there - and vigorous investigation of the "unemployed" who are spending time in casinos and racetracks, and buying assets, would soon reduce crime by a sizeable amount.

    3. There are a small % of hard-core unemployed, that merely cycle between the dole and jail. They have no other aim in life, but to bludge, steal, and generally cause mayhem.
    I think the simple solution is to lock these people up for longer periods every time they re-offend, so they are placed under the intense supervision and control that they need, permanently.
    lasaboy
    20th Aug 2012
    2:51pm
    and they all think the world owes them something instead of the other way around
    doclisa
    20th Aug 2012
    3:29pm
    for someone who looks just like a very famous buddhist you seem somewhat mean.
    have you thought about the effect on paid workers having their jobs done by people being effectively paid 1/3 of their wage? Or the personal interaction at the centrelink desk of a low level clerk telling someone to clean up a courtyard or pick up rubbish before getting a cheque ( even tho cheques are now redundant and being phased out). Not great use of a power situation.Could lead to massive loss of moral for people already low on the pecking order.
    lasaboy
    20th Aug 2012
    9:43pm
    When I was young I took on whatever job came a long, I started at the bottom, in my life I have done everything from cleaning toilets to owning and running my own engineering business ( I was in engineering for 32 years) even now I would not think it beneath me the clean a toilet if it was required, this is the problem with most of today's youth, they want the big bucks but they don't want to work for it or they don't want to do jobs they consider beneath them, they need to look in the mirror and see they are no-one special.
    Any and I mean ANY work that is honest is good work, I started at the bottom with a dream and worked my way to the top, I lot of people said I was lucky, funny thing is, the harder I worked the luckier I got
    Reppie
    20th Aug 2012
    1:25pm
    National service is fine - providing - they don't send out 20 year old conscripts overseas to fight in any wars.

    One out of every 3 young guys I knew at this age went to Vietnam - all except 2, who actually got to come back, did so damaged for life. NO choice is what they were given.

    Ok, give them jobs to do in lieu of armed services, work for the dole isnt a concern of mine.

    Just the words "National service"send a chill up my spine. Sorry to those who did time in the armed serviced. I hope it was YOUR choice, not the govt. of the days.
    Anonymous
    20th Aug 2012
    1:44pm
    "NO choice is what they were given."

    Reppie - Not entirely true. As Vietnam Veteran (Engineers) - and a conscript - (who had to suffer financial loss by leaving my business, during the period of my conscription) - the only conscripts who were "given no choice" about going to Vietnam, were Infantry blokes.

    Infantry men were allocated to an Infantry Battalion, and the Infantry Battalions were rotated into and out of Vietnam on a regular basis.
    If you were a conscript allocated to a Battalion that went to Vietnam - yes, you had no choice about going to a combat zone.

    However, all other conscripts to every other Corps were asked if they wanted to go to Vietnam or not. I volunteered to go, as did the majority of concripts.
    At the time, it seemed "the right thing to do" - an "adventure" for many of us - and your pay and benefits were increased.

    In hindsight (a wonderful thing, you have 20/20 vision in hindsight) - none of us would have gone to Vietnam, if we knew and understood the ramifications and the bigger picture.
    It was not a war that should ever have been prosecuted in the manner that it was, because it was a politicians war - and it disobeyed the basic tenet of war - to capture and hold territory, and to rapidly subdue the enemy wholesale.

    Few of us understood that the American defence industry and its unholy alliance with corrupt American politicians was the real reason for the Vietnam war.
    Yes, we nearly all did come home damaged and disillusioned - and sometimes it took decades for the damage to surface.
    Fortunately, thanks to our greatest military leader, General Sir John Monash, we have a Veterans Repatriation scheme that looks after Veterans better than any other country.

    You're right, no conscript should ever be sent to a combat zone unless they are willing participants - and no war should be initiated or prosecuted unless it is approved and run by competent military leaders, without political interference.
    Newt
    20th Aug 2012
    1:34pm
    Other countries such as Denmark have compulsory national service so why shouldn't we?

    I don't believe in sending young people overseas to fight, but national service would certainly be good for fitness and discipline to say the least, and many of our young people would finish their service with skills that would help them in the future. There are also lots of "jobs" that could be done within Australia to help improve our country's infrastructure.

    I left school during the mid-1960s when there was conscription and our youth were being sent to Vietnam to fight and die for a war that wasn't ours. I personally missed out being selected by the ballot, but was quite prepared to serve in a non-combat role if I had been drafted at that time.
    Peaceful
    20th Aug 2012
    1:48pm
    PLEASE DO NOT TAR EVERYONE WITH THESE NEGATIVE BRUSHES!!
    As someone with recognised health professional qualifications and high level experience in a pecialised field in both NSW and UK for almost 28 years, I was given the erroneous impression by one specialist Agency that I would easily find a job when I returned here in 2004.
    When I subsequently met with the manager of said agency, he told me I was "one of a dying breed" ! Despite my 'upskilling' by doing various relevant courses here, I found it increasingly difficult to get even a half decent and permanent job in that specialist area - so I took on a variety of part time often casual/ short term contracts in other fields to try to keep away from Centrelink and maintain a roof over my head! I must have enquired about and/or applied for thousands of jobs - over the last 8 years!! Many of those did not even elicit a one line email response!! Ageism is rife - as is parochialism, amongst some employers, I have found , and this has been confimred to me by several Recruiters from overseas, especially UK people.
    The impact of all this, and very little in the way of family support has been unquantifiable!! This has been the worst 8 years of my life, my self respect and confidence sank to an all time low last yea; I was almost ready to pack up and leave Oz.
    I'm 64 now, and despite some quite significant health issues, I am developing a small business to try to keep away from Centrelink! I'm sure most people who've had any dealings with them would rather not have to do so! Their 'customer service' leaves much to be desired - [ I've written a song about them recently ] - and the amount one receives from them is absolutely pitiful!!

    So before you all jump on the 'judgemental bandwagon' here - please have some compassion for those of us who have tried damned hard to find work! There must be many more who have found themselves in the same boat as me.
    Taskid
    20th Aug 2012
    2:32pm
    Peaceful

    You give a timely call. There are many out there willing to work and factors work against them, not least being ageism.

    I have worked in my 70's and been complimented on the standard of my professional work, that just last year. It was casual but I worked four days a week for three months in a difficult field. The wealth of experience and qualification our nation misses out on due to ageism is criminal. I would happily work, but the interviewers would bypass my experience and qualifications and see only my grey hair. We are the poorer for this juvenile attitude to older people who wish to work.

    20th Aug 2012
    2:12pm
    Some of the main problems that seem to face employers when looking at hiring young people are

    A) low standard of practical education (the basics)
    B) lack of self displine.
    C) lack of respect for authority.
    D) lack of general life skills.
    E) failure to appreciate the true value/costs of thing

    Most of these should have been addressed in both in school and in the home. Until that is addressed some sort of conscription may be the only answer.

    Increasing the leaving age is fine if the extra time is used to correct the above problems.

    How about making the last years in school more like work. Have students assist round the school, teach them respossiblity for themselves and others, teach them that things don't just magiclly happen, lessons have to be prepared, Classrooms cleaned, rubbish removed, food cooked and do it in a practical way; get their hands dirty. Figure out some sort of reward system so the can see the value of their labour.

    In Japan students are required to clean their own classrooms. Older students assisting younger ones. Part of the concept of building ownership and community in a school. Maybe an approach like that could help.
    doclisa
    20th Aug 2012
    3:23pm
    do you think parents should have to deal with these issues and instill things like respect in their children. Not educationalists. All the things you raise should be found in a good home, basic education elements, self discipline, life skills, repect of authority (and others and themselves) and to appreciate the monetary, environmental, sentimental value of things.
    We need to look at parents.

    21st Aug 2012
    11:59am
    I agree parents should instill these values but many don't
    Their children growup with out the skills or desire to teach good values to their children.
    Many unfortunatly are 2 or 3 generations down this road and even if they have the desire to improve matters they lack the skills and resourses to reverse the trend.
    The educationalists can help providing the skills to those whos parents do not.
    By providing it to all equally you remove any stigma that can cause people to activlte reject support while also creating a greater sense of community and belonging.
    Cymru
    20th Aug 2012
    2:22pm
    Unemployment benefit is a safety-net...not a hammock! If only the message could be made clear. I have sat across the table from a third-generation unemployed youth (my job was to form a plan for his "return to work") and been told it was his constitutional right to draw the dole for as long as he wished and for me to hurry up as he wanted to get back to his window-cleaning job.
    doclisa
    20th Aug 2012
    3:35pm
    some people can never be safe.
    We need perhaps to divide the people needing protection better. So that people who perhaps have mental issues could be identified and assisted, people with learning difficulties could be educated, people with social problems could be taught and assisted to trust and work with society, people could be made safe. Being unemployed should not be the big fat basket it is. That is where we need to fix it. We are a rich country throwing away our intelligence and our human resources. We could fix this, or at least do it better.
    JJ
    20th Aug 2012
    2:44pm
    Community service in exchange for the dole, certainly. No-one should be handed money gratis without having to put in effort of some kind - of course tailor the work to the capability, and allow a choice if feasible. National service would appeal to many young men, and could be the making of some of them. Young people need to be taught that no-one gets a free ride through life, and responsibility for all adults lies with themselves.
    Of course, not all young people are irresponsible, and not all unemployed people are unemployable. So we don't want or need a punitive system, but we certainly need a system which teaches people the value of work and how to improve their chances of getting it, along with their responsibility to make some kind of contribution toward the society of which they are a part.
    petersm
    20th Aug 2012
    2:48pm
    Not too sure that it is reasonable to expect the defense force to 'teach' discipline, respect, work ethic and good clean living. Or nor that they are the most appropriate organisation to do so. Having members of my family, past and present, serving in the armed forces I can assure you that the abuse of booze, and drugs, women and children is as prevalent amongst members of the armed services as it is in the wider community.

    And why should youngsters be punished for not working when for many they have no hope of getting a job, when they are unemployable, with little or no literacy skills due to the lack of appropriate education? Students moving into year 7 at high school, unable to read or write, or with only the very, very basics of the three R's are being set up for life long frustration and failure.

    Time to bring back Tech schools, support young folk who want to go into a trade or the like to gain the skills they will need for an apprenticeship or traineeship over a period of 5 years, rather than some course that runs for days or weeks? And let's get serious about what apprentices and trainees get paid - if their weekly salary is lower then the dole, than what is the point?
    Assistance to employers, paid after apprentices/trainees have reached certain milestones, e.g. 12 months, passed exams, midway through, and graduation. Assistance to apprentices/trainees too, say via a scheme similar to that available to uni students, where they get assistance to buy tools, equipment, industrial clothing and footwear, which is paid back once they have completed their training and are employed? I can't but wonder if then we might not see a decline in the number of young folk who are unemployed.

    As for anyone who in their mid thirties onwards who find themselves out of work on in the unemployment queue, heaven help you, for believe me, no one else will. At best you will spend your time, that is if you are even eligible and there are programs in your area, doing inapprioatte training courses, the qualifications which are not worth the paper they are printed on, whilst the church, community or commericial placement agency to whom you have been allocated, collect a 4 figure fee for every course you do. So expect to do first aid, OH&S, coffee making, how to clean a toilet and floors course, or aged care or child care related training, or food handling - that is a big favorite! As for your skills, experience or any health issues, forget it, they are not taken into consideration. So damn depressing, and utterly soul destroying.
    doclisa
    20th Aug 2012
    3:45pm
    encore

    Just a note the world has shifted since we did manufacture so tech school subjects would need to change so that we can look to the future. Which could be part of our problem.
    Oldie@83
    20th Aug 2012
    2:48pm
    I feel National Service for the teenagers would be more costly to the taxpayers than the unemployment benefits. They would need to be clothed fed and housed plus supervised.
    In times of peace, I doubt the Regular Military Services want them anyway.
    I'm all in favour of work for the dole. Look back in history and I think you will find internationally many examples of Work Camps; most obvious is the Autobahn's in Germany mostly built by 'Work Camp' residents during the depression; another example I recently watched on TV was the building of the 'Boulder Dam' in the USA built by men trying to feed their families. We don't want depression days back however the problem needs solving. Well organised Work for the Dole my help. Many skilled jobs have been taken over by machines and robots. GNP remains high at the cost of dignity for humans.
    Tara
    20th Aug 2012
    4:32pm
    While it may cost to keep these people in the Forces Oldie, it keeps them off the streets and away from drugs and alcohol, therefore, costing us less on ambulance and medical expenses for them. I don't think they should be sent to war zones, but taught basic trades. The obvious would be to give them a choice, work for the dole or National Service. Trouble is, who would police working for the dole, it does not work now when they just get their forms signed and continue to receive the dole while not actively looking for work or doing courses. At least in the Forces they will hopefully learn respect and manners.
    biddi
    20th Aug 2012
    2:49pm
    Yes, to National Service. This applies to all young men. Instil some pride and backbone. I like Rat's input.
    biddi
    20th Aug 2012
    3:03pm
    PS. I have a friend who has been on the dole for many, many years and does NOT want to go out and work and ALWAYS has excuses for not doing so. She is paying off her house.... and she always complains about about Centrelink. There is no gratitude only more expectations and more complaints. She is seldom home doing God knows what. Not looking for work, though. No, this is not 'greeneye' but an observation/attitude I dislike very much. The million dollar question is HOW DO THESE PEOPLE GET AWAY WITH DOING NO WORK FOR YEARS AND YEARS (and still whinge about the handouts)? Guess it's because they've been allowed to and the government is too P*** weak. Can't wait for the Fed. election.
    Kohleria
    20th Aug 2012
    3:05pm
    Debbie,
    National Service was in Austraia prior to 1965 when it was re introduced.

    "National Service training at Puckapunyal during the 1950s."
    "In 1951, during the Korean War, National Service was introduced under the National Service Act (1951). All Australian males aged 18 had to register for 176 days training (ninety-nine days full time) and two years in the CMF. Later the obligation was 140 days of training (seventy-seven days full time) and three years of service in the CMF. The regular military forces were kept as voluntary. In 1957 the system was changed to emphasise skill rather than numbers. The system was ended in 1959." (Wikipedia)

    I did my spell of Nasho at Pucka and thoroughly enjoyed the time.
    Admittedly only 3 months but the discipline instilled remains.
    Three months, preferably six, would be one hell of a wake up call to many and should apply equally to both male and female.

    Exemptions? Keep them to an absolute minimum and look at it like a mini Gap year experience.
    Taskid
    20th Aug 2012
    3:18pm
    Kohleria - I too can recall the National Service. They were different times and I still feel that a Community Service Corp will serve Australia better than teaching young people how to fight. Such a corps would of necessity have to have discipline and boundaries for participants, but they would be being trained to assist the most vulnerable in our community not just to kill future enemies. It is about the service to Australians, a more positive outcome in these times community need. Would you agree?
    Kohleria
    20th Aug 2012
    3:23pm
    Agree very much with Rat's comments.
    I do part time work at a private Girls school and am staggered at the lack of basic manners and consideration for others. (Same applies at some State schools as well so settle down).
    The grounds after breaks are, to me at least, an absolute disgrace.
    Wrappers, peel, uneaten food etc just left and NO effort to use bins etc.
    When I have drawn attention to things discarded I have been met with a blank stare.
    Gardens are trampled and new paths formed across lawns etc when paths exist within metres.
    I believe this is not totally the fault of the schools as these basics are formed at home.
    Kohleria
    20th Aug 2012
    3:31pm
    Mek,
    Totally agree some form of Community Service would be of vaue to the individual as well as the Country in general.
    Was not suggesting teaching to fight but more the discipline.
    By discipline I don't only mean "Yes Sir, No Sir" etc but also there is a correct way for things to be done and that is the way it is to be done.
    Recruiting during my working life we welcomed forces training because of that instilled discipline.
    grumpy old woman
    20th Aug 2012
    3:35pm
    Owing to the problems already mentioned in my earlier comment I have had many experiences with Centrelink over the past twenty years. With just a few exceptions (countable on the fingers of one hand) I have found them friendly, helpful, understanding, and courteous but they do have to work within a system that is fundamentally flawed. As for working at community work while looking - as a professional over 50 years of age, researching prospective employers and the roles being offered and then addressing key selection criteria, up-dating and tailoring my resume, and writing the application could easily take 20 hours or more - not much time left for other activities when one has to apply for two jobs per week.

    But why can't National Service include helping clean-up country roads (see Landline), or beaches or parks, working with the elderly or disabled, building homes in bush areas for those in need? I'm sure every one of us could add a dozen opportunities to this list. The issue is not only about teaching discipline, engendering self-respect and value for others, but also about our nation helping the less fortunate find what it is that they can do well and offer their skills in that area to their wider community. A lack of clear roles for young people has been identified as one of the contributors to the rate of youth suicide. But suicide rates for adult males in rural areas is also alarming high.

    No blame games please - let's just help every member of our various communities be the best people they can be and learn the joy of being a genuine contributor to their own community.
    Taskid
    20th Aug 2012
    3:39pm
    Kohleria
    Right I am with you, the teaching of skills, respect, ability to work with others, committment is what is needed. With it I believe, for many, will come self-respect and self-esteem and also concern and respect for others. I think it is a win-win scenario. Why do our leaders not see the potential???
    Anonymous
    20th Aug 2012
    3:52pm
    MEK - Because we are led by politicians, not Statesmen and Stateswomen, as we should be.
    The difference? Politicians make decisions based on what is good for their Party and their re-election chances - Statemen and Stateswomen makes decisions based on what is good for the country in the long-term.
    Not a single politician amongst the current crop, has any potential to instigate programs that are necessary for the good of the country.
    As the old saying goes, they couldn't organise a booze up in a brewery if they brought their own glasses.
    Most Politicians are little more than dole-bludgers - and expensive ones at that!
    lasaboy
    20th Aug 2012
    3:54pm
    And most of them could not hold down a real job if their lives depended on it
    lasaboy
    20th Aug 2012
    3:55pm
    I was asked years ago to stand for local Government, I told them I was not corrupt or lazy enough, which just about sums up our pollies
    Taskid
    20th Aug 2012
    3:57pm
    Aaron and Isaboy

    Sadly I think I must agree with both of you. We need real leaders, real States people.
    hlagaa
    20th Aug 2012
    3:58pm
    This afternoon I was in a shop and overheard a mobile phone conversation in which a young male was telling someone he had bought a remote control car and said, "I'm really proud of myself. I spent all of my Centrelink loan on the car". I can't help but wonder what Centrelink expected the young man to spend the loan on. Too many young people expect to receive benefits long term/forever and never contribute to society. No doubt this young person like so many others spend their Centrelink benefits inappropriately and then turn up at charity organisations for food vouchers. Not sure what the answer is for the long term unemployed but nothing seems to be working at the moment.
    Anonymous
    20th Aug 2012
    4:12pm
    hlagaa - Ahhh, but you need to understand that this young bloke has contributed mightily to our economy by buying a new RC car! He's paid tax (GST), he's kept people employed - from truckies to shopkeepers - he's learnt the art of acquiring and spending money (a banker in the making, for sure!) - and he's now going out to keep Rangers employed, as they ticket him for being a public nuisance, by operating the car in a shopper car park, or even a shopping centre!

    I can see you'll have to be sent to a re-education camp, to be taught how our modern society works!
    You do understand, that the alternative of not giving him a Centrelink loan, and letting him buy a car - means, he'd be smashing your car window to steal your mobile phone, so he can pawn it, to get the money for his car!

    Of course, there's a slight problem in that all the money for the RC car went to China, anyway. But don't worry! - the finest corporate brains in the country are working on how we can get a small portion of it back - so we can blow it on examining some schemes on how to resurrect our defunct manufacturing industries, to keep people employed!
    toot2000
    20th Aug 2012
    4:15pm
    Sadly, like myself, the majority of older Australians are high school dropouts. We need to change our thinking and get our kids into university as a matter of course. We desperately need smart people, we have a lot, but need more.
    lasaboy
    20th Aug 2012
    9:49pm
    I was not a high school drop out, I actually went to Uni, but my first job was cleaning (mostly toilets) because I could not get a job in my chosen field, I saved my bucks and got where I wanted to go and was in engineering for 32 years, no pain no gain, whether a high school drop out or a Uni grad, we all have to pay our dues, these kids don't want top pay they want it given to them
    Sylvia
    20th Aug 2012
    4:17pm
    Maybe insisting every one who is unemployed for more than 6 months, should be given training options in services to the country, in helping out in disasters, or need ect, where there is no money to help people with such services then these people could go and help, they wouldn't be taking anyones jobs this way, those who would like to make the armed services their career, could do so, on special 2 years training, we need to have all of our citizens skilled for the good of Australia. Other country's do this, and it seems it keeps people occupied.
    I am 77 and still do volunteer work, life would be so boring with out getting out, helping and being with others.I notice that volunteers seem to be getting older, is this because youngsters are not being taught to give as well as recieve?
    Sylvia
    20th Aug 2012
    4:44pm
    No one seems to mention that we are taking in so many migrants, and people with temporary labor permits, surely while we have so much unemployment we should stop this, let the unemployed do this work instead, and if they say they can't for one reason or another, then stop the dole, because they are not hungry enough .
    What a pity in such a wonderful country we should have so many who don't want to earn their keep. If a job can be done by some one who would travel hundreds of miles for the opportunity to do so, then so should our people, teach them to have some pride.
    To all the people who try so hard to find work, then my heart goes out to them we do need to take a good look at remedies for this problem
    Dotty
    20th Aug 2012
    4:48pm
    I for one agree about working for the dole as most as already said go straight to Centerlink and get the allowance long before they should, and what happens to them !! They end up like my gran daughter on drugs and end up killing themselves ! she was one of those that had never worked but was able to get Financial assistance from the Government to be able to just hang around using drugs and and where did it get her !! A coffin!!
    Maybe some thoughts should be given to those that are able to get this allowance too young and not have to do anything for it ! Dottie
    Peaceful
    20th Aug 2012
    4:57pm
    Toot 2000 - not all of the older generation were high school drop outs. I went into a health professional career in mid 1960s - which is now at University degree level. I also have a Post Grad qualification.
    However, a University education is NOT going to be suitable for everyone - there are so many people who would not meet the most basic of entry requirements - far less have the academic ability to make anything of many of the courses. Vocational training and increasing availabiity of apprenticeships is important, I feel.

    "These people" as Sylvia mentions are, after all, human beings, with feelings and emotions that can be seriously impacted by their long term unemployment. Consequently their ability to function even at the basic survival levels can be so damaged that to even contemplate going out of the house - if they have one - can be a huge challenge! I know, as I have been there.

    Organisations like CRS, which are supposed to assist the unemployed back into work are 'a waste of space' - as far as I am concerned.

    As for the younger generation's selfishness etc - we all, as parents, anf grandparents, have to take a share of the responsibility for these problems.
    professori_au
    20th Aug 2012
    5:17pm
    This attack on those receiving social security payments is an inustice to people who would work if there were jobs available. Our successive governments have done their best to destroy our manufacturing bas; our farming communities, Destroyed our industrial Training system, yet the comments fail to mention another form of "dole" bludging by big industry, e.g. ford, Holden, Alcoa and many others, who threaten to close or eave Australia unless they are compensated through grants and other forms of payments from the public purse.
    We had full employment until the governments were conned by vested interests from other countries with the so-called level playing field and global economy. The third world countries that were supposed to benefit mostly have not. there are still slave labour conditions along with sweat shops. The only benficiaries have been the multinationals and the very rich.
    toot2000
    20th Aug 2012
    5:53pm
    Professor, you need to move to another country, obviously Australia is a big disappointment to you.
    Anonymous
    20th Aug 2012
    9:12pm
    toot2000
    Why do you fee it is necessary to insult anyone that has an opinion that differs from your rather extreme right view?
    lasaboy
    20th Aug 2012
    9:51pm
    There is plenty of work, so long as your ego does not get in the way
    doclisa
    23rd Aug 2012
    11:28am
    professorie
    you have a very good point. when we speak of subsidising from the Government for the individual we ought look at other kinds of subsidies and if they work. Car subsidies for manufacture in Australia are very low brow. If they made the foreign companies work with Australians in the design area and looked to the next generation of cars in doing that. If they stopped subsiding the tank style suv that everyone drives now perhaps the smaller car would be a good option for many people, save or roads, our lives and our communities. Some big business subsidy is an excuse for politians to go on a freebie somewhere. Looking closely into why we pay HUGE amounts of money to Americans to build big cars here would be a start.
    yldone
    20th Aug 2012
    5:51pm
    I agree with Sylvia why should we pay for overseas people to take jobs from us - it should be mandatory that ALL unemployed should do National Service even for 6 mths - as commented so many times for Self esteem and sense of worth. The mines want workers - but they don't want to train people yet they will have to train the overseas imigrants so what is the difference. I am an ex services person loved every minute of my time in the Navy (NZ) I felt as if I was doing a worthwile job - never served overseas much to my dismay. I would do it all over again. My nephews in NZ have enquired about joining up and they are not taking in any people at the moment so they have got themselves work, cleaning yards, mowing lawns weeding, anything that will give them some money and one has gone to TAFE to get skills that will help when he does get called up for service. They have also tried Australia. Their parents bought them up with a sense of worth if you don't get a job don't lay about the house and you don't go on the dole - you do something. These are country kids miles from a town and they get work.

    I cannot stand to see the gross waste of money that our government is throwing at overseas countries - yes we need to help but not at the expense of Australia, use it here first and if there is anything left then okay give. In the USA you can only be on the dole for 6 mths in that time you must try for work, it stops after that and you have to put in a good case as to why you should be re-instated.

    As an ex employer, we had staff asking us to sign their forms to claim the dole payment as well as getting wages of $500 plus commission per week (which we refused to do). It is too easy to get the dole and it is not policed closely enough, however if you are a pensioner they make you jump through hoops to get your well deserved pension, they don't like to see them earn a cent over their limit.

    I retired at 70 and am busy with volunteer work and our organisation cannot get enough volunteers to help out - yet in our community (6000) we have lot of unemployed youth who just seem to be uninterested in doing anything that does not involve iphones, facebook or twitter. Most definately - work for the dole and yes do time in the services it will save us money in the long term and create we hope some very employable and responsible people. However is saying that big business needs to come to the party and create jobs as well.
    ice-cold
    20th Aug 2012
    6:18pm
    I definetly agree with bringing back national-service for either gender a bit of respect for themselves & other people ! I'm not saying all young people are tarred with the same brush, but what we have in modern society beggars beleif,Iknow of young girls getting pregnant to get the baby bonus & then shacking up with the father & getting a flat & another hand-out, But they can smoke & booze & do Drugs & get Tatt's, WOW am I going to get howled down for this, But go ahead you "do-gooders" & bleeding Hearts,Go your hardest!
    Brad
    20th Aug 2012
    6:38pm
    My son is profoundly deaf, his speech is not great but he managed to qualify as a carpenter and works. Yes it was a hard road no one wanted to train him so he trained at tafe, no mean fete when you can't hear the teacher, same for school. We had him out delivering papers and working at at McDonalds as soon as we could. It's all been a long hard road but now he is independent. I have no time for single young mothers, dole bludgers etc. I am nearly 70 and one of the worst things in life is to have to be dependent on centerlink but not wanting to work and be a bludger just stinks, but Australia seems to be full of these people now. The other day an approximately 11 year old skateborder asked me for a dollar to buy a breka drink, I said sorry but don't have a dollar, he then called me a F#!*ing poofter. I offered to break his fingers for him. Can't discipline them at home or school or anywhere else. Yes there are good young people out there but our governments seem to neglect them and support the morons. Doogooders will learn eventually one hopes but when are governments going to get tough and give us back a decent society.
    Brad
    Figtree
    20th Aug 2012
    7:09pm
    The hardest part of all these ideas about compulsory service of any description is the overseeing of the output. Currently, employers don't take on unskilled workers because they need intense scrutiny, or the costs of mistakes, breakages and injuries sends their overheads into over drive. Military National Service worked because the folks were removed from society, their input or output was measurable and a punishment system could be applied if the expected standard was not met.
    It is easy to blame our teachers for the standard of our youngsters behavour and learning, but teacher are completely handicapped. They have no rights in the class room except to accept the abuse handed out by students, they are completely powerless. Check out the number of injured teacher in your state and you will be astounded.
    They also are only part-time employees, only being given 10 week contracts, one term at a time. Try finding financial security on this form of employment, banks will not lend to teachers because there are not consider 'a good risk'. These people are being asked to give even more and more and used as an easy target for the failures.
    Yes, National Service is a good proposition but not just for youngsters, older experience workers could be incorporated into the system too, we would then have the best use of all our country's skills an knowledge.
    professori_au
    20th Aug 2012
    9:02pm
    Toot2000
    Thank you. Why should I leave for another country just because of disappointment.
    I was born here. I am very proud of my country and our achievements. My concern lies with the people, elected to carry out the mandate of the people and once elected promptly governed for the vested interests.
    So many politicians are no longer committed to carrying out those mandates but have become greedy and corrupt and collude for their own satisfaction with faction groups and vested interests of other countries. It must be frustrating for those who do have a commitment.
    Of course I am disappointed about this trend but am hopeful that once people understand their rights and insist that governments return to our Rule of Law (commonwealth constitution) and govern for the people who are in a sense their employers.
    We have the resources and rather than give them away to be bought back at increased cost where we should be value adding using our own people to manufacture goods and services.
    Instead of quality industrial training both at TAFE and on the job, we bring skills from overseas.
    Once these people gain, citizenship they too, are overlooked and a new group of people brought in.
    Generally many of them are exploited. I know because I have had to investigate companies who do it as a matter of course. I could write a book on this subject.
    The problem was that investigators were not allowed to investigate the treatment of all employees. It was felt the employee had to ask for our help because, if we investigated without the employees' request/consent, it might result in an employee's sacking.
    There was also a political component where because of the politicising of the Public Servants, the executive management ensures that the government of the day is not embarrassed by these investigations.
    I grew up from an orphanage, gained skills and knowledge across a wide range of interests, e.g. farming, engineering, building and construction, business consultancy and manufacturing.
    I spent approximately 10 years as a public servant investigating, monitoring and supervising industry training, after my consultancy contract with the government was completed. This consultancy was to develop special programmes aimed to assist the long term unemployed and those with socio-economic reasons denying them employment.
    I grew up in a time when, if you had the will and the drive, you could accomplish much. That is not the way today. Private providers do not follow up the monitoring or supervision of training but take, without accountability the government monies paid for “training”. We have seen on the TV of one training provider that rorted the system. There are more of them and they should be made more accountable for the use of taxpayer monies.
    Yes! I am somewhat disappointed but I also am a born optimist and believe if we work at the problems Australia will again be a place to be proud. Where you will want your children to grow up. We have problems and playing the blame game will not solve them. Stand back and look at them and examine the problem without bias and solutions will come more readily.

    20th Aug 2012
    9:02pm
    This is a scenario of a woman in America who was required to work for the dole.

    She got paid dole money to attend a job. This was not enough to live on, so she had to take on two other part time jobs for which she was paid very little. In order to receive these 'slave' wages, she was required to travel on public transport for 3 hours of her day.

    Unfortunately, this was not enough to pay for rent AND food and other costs (she had a primary school age child), so she was required to live at her brothers house. Her brother liked guns and because the mother was required to travel and work long hours (for very little money) she relied on the brother to get him to school.

    Yes, you guessed it, the child took the gun to school and blew a little girl away when showing her the gun. The mother was viciously ostracised as an unfit mother who was not around for her child.

    True story (Michael Moore video - Bowling for Columbine)

    I think that to link the dole to employment AND bringing in National Service to those unable to get jobs, is not only totally unacceptable, it is despicable.

    Underpayment for employment - is worse than bringing in refugees and paying them a pittance. How well would you fare against someone receiving dole money to do your job. You would be out. There would be two classes of employees - open to abuse. The second factor is that no government or business wants 100% employment, employees would have no competition and and eventually, the market would push up all wages and it would be difficult to find people to fill positions. Unemployment at 5% is already causing problems in this area.

    National Service - forcing the disadvantaged to go to Iraq, Afganistan, etc and face death, is quite a disgusting scenario! This is what happened to one of my clients - He was 23 and was a voluntary paid army personnel who went to Iraq - first invasion, not the second. He came home but was slowly dying, he was that bad that he couldn't even lift his baby child. His private insurer blamed his war activities and wouldn't pay out and the government at the time (Howard) said it had nothing to do with Iraq, no pay out. Out of the 700 that belonged to a group that met once a year, at that time only 300 were left - all young men. My client is no longer with us. You see the Yanks used depleted uranium in all their weapons which means that they radiated Iraq and once again the Australians were not informed or protected. But you will never hear about it from our wonderful corporate media - thanks Mr (USA) Murdoch.

    Now Mr Abbott is proposing to FORCE disadvantaged persons into our Military, to be used as cannon fodder. Mr Abbott & his wealthy mates' kids will never require unemployment benefits and will never be used and abused as cannon fodder.

    No if Mr Abbott wants to bring in National Service for the poor and disadvantaged then I will oppose it with everything I have.

    I am SICK to DEATH of the wealthy, extremely advantaged suggesting that we use and abuse the poor and disadvantaged!

    Mr Abbott, you have completely lost me now, I think his suggestion is absolutely disgusting and typical.

    A better solution is to improve PUBLIC schooling and TRAINING. Now that was not hard was it. The average Australian pays more in tax for this country than the wealthy elite but they won't put our hard earned tax money into public schooling and training, no they give it to the wealthy in the form of HANDOUTS to private schools.

    If he wants to save money cut out the HANDOUTS to private schools and put it towards PUBLIC schooling and TRAINING of our unemployed.

    Abbott you are a wealthy idiot - Gillard would also cop this, if she came up with this elitist bullsh**! It's bad enough that Gillard has just stated that she would increase PRIVATE school spending. What the hell happened to capitalist private enterprise concept - why have they got their hand out for MY TAXES!!!! I would rather pay the 5% unemployed to STAY unemployed, so that the market has some leeway and flexibility to obtain good employees and at a reasonable price.

    Can't believe Australians are actually discussing the possibility of FORCED Military Nation Service where by, it will start with the unemployed and then extend to the general populace - don't forget the creep factor. Exceptions, of course, are the sons and daughters of the wealthy - they will never be cannon fodder - THAT ROLE IS HELD EXCLUSIVELY FOR YOUR KIDS AND GRANDKIDS!
    arb1950
    21st Aug 2012
    1:00am
    Finally, the voice of reason. I applaude you.
    It is hard to believe that so many people use this forum to attack and condemn the actions of those who are poor and disadvantaged, yet fail to grasp that those who are REALLY not contributing to Australian society are the wealthy who fail to pay taxes and the politicians who became politicians solely to feather their own nests while they beat their breasts and condemn others less fortunate than themselves.
    It sickens me that there are some members of this forum that not only swallow the media tripe that they read and hear, but pick up and run with some of the disgusting fear campaigns and propaganda dished out to the masses.
    Where is the concern? Where is the compassion? Surely more of you have some empathy for those who are poor and disadvantaged?
    Skills building, study, more training, encouragement, and so on... these are all valuable tools to extend possibilities for those who are disadvantaged in our society. Forced Mililary national service... the idea is repugnant!!!!!
    Twila
    21st Aug 2012
    1:39am
    Mussitate,

    Why bring the US system of dole onto a discussion about Australia? I can't see the relevance at all - especially the story you relate.

    I am a full pensioner, so undoubtedly classified, in your words as "poor and disadvantaged." Whilst I may not have luxuries, I do not consider myself either poor or disadvantaged. Life is how one sees it.

    As for private schools. Many parents are far from well-off, but have chosen to make sacrifices to send their children there. The reasons are various, and in many cases obvious. I agree that skills building, study etc. is needed. Sometimes, those with modest incomes, find that these are best provided by private schools.

    All parents pay taxes, including those who send their children to private schools. These parents also have the right to see their taxes used for their children's education.

    If all private schools were to close today where do you think the government would find the money for buildings, facilities and other needs to provide for these children.
    A little clear thought and you would see that private schools save the government many, many millions it would otherwise have to find.

    What should be of great concern are the 55,000 street kids here and now. Those who try and provide some little help for them will tell you that these kids are already on the scrap heap before their life begins. No chance of a life which ordinary Australians have - a job, marriage and family. Furthermore, first their hygiene goes, then their health ... followed by a shortened life expectancy.

    Who cares if someone is wealthy or not? What do people, such as yourself, really know about them? They could be doing a great deal for the underprivileged. Those who finger-point are often making an excuse for not doing something themselves. Look to your own house first.
    Twila
    21st Aug 2012
    2:21am
    Mussitate,

    I agree with much of what you say about politicians. Whatever 'beliefs' they have on entering politics, it seems that their constant compromises to stay in power, sees any 'principles' disappearing to a vanishing point. There is only one politician I recognise as principled, and he is an Independent.
    Anonymous
    21st Aug 2012
    3:14am
    Twila
    The reasons people make sacrifices to send their children to private schools is because the private schools are provided with so much money, that the children get a better education. Goodness, the facilities at these schools are incredible these days!

    If our public schools got as much, you would not have had to pay through the nose, to have your kids attend these schools.

    This system also ensures that there a two sets of Education, one for the well off and one for the less well off. Ditto for our current Medical system!

    You agree with this I note but then complain about the 'not so well off' and how they sometimes behave.

    If you were treated like a second class citizen with no hope of getting a 'reasonable' job or having all the goodies that our television and internet are constantly telling our youth they MUST HAVE, otherwise they are losers, then you too would behave in a similar manner.

    It is because of Australia's social service system that you, as a pensioner are able to live with some dignity. Even easier if you have your own home. Don't understand the context.

    Of course if we closed the private schools overnight, then it would cause problems! Who in their right mind would do that???

    What you do is simply not increase funding and disregard inflationary aspects and this would allow private schools to wean themselves off the public purse and return them to the 'free market' enterprise system. At the same time public schools can gradually be reopened or new ones established. Not at all difficult.

    Lets get something straight, private schools do not save the government millions....they COST the government millions and create a two tier education system and society. Then you complain about 'our youths disrespect'.

    How can you talk about the homeless youth in one breath and condemn them to second class education which ensures they drop out of society in the other...please!

    What do I know about the wealthy? There are some of us that would give up a reasonable amount of our wealth if our system was such that it was equally allocated (ie. all our kids had access to equal education, health care and job opportunities and not only 'some' of them). The rest of them couldn't give a damn about you or your youth, as long as they are okay and unfortunately they predominate. I guess this allows me to 'finger-point' and I don't need to look to my own houses, they look after themselves.

    Now back to the USA example - huh? Because it is relevant, maybe! The person in the real life example was on a 'working for the dole' programme. We don't have that here....yet. Hence, this is a real life example of how 'working for the dole' can make poverty worse.
    The other aspect I didn't mention is that by implementing 'working for the dole' unemployment could actually increase - those 'working for the dole' would be taking the jobs off those that would normally have been employed to do that work. Think about it.

    Finally, I am a little perturbed by your seeming lack of empathy or consideration that this sort of thing could happen in Australia, if 'work for the dole' was introduced. Who is 'pointing the finger' what finger?

    20th Aug 2012
    10:17pm
    What National Service does, more than anything, is teach the young respect, for themselves and the world at large, and discipline. Those are the main things missing today in the young. I think that all 'lost' teens should be given the opportunity to improve their lot, they deserve another chance, and National Service would do that.

    My brother, now 70, missed out on National Service and he's a person who still thinks that the world owes him something even though he's rarely worked, and is disrespectful to anyone who thinks differently to him. I know he'd have been a better human being and a big brother I could respect if he'd done the National Service.
    Anonymous
    21st Aug 2012
    1:11am
    The soldier in my comment above had respect but all he got was a slow death at a young age, in return.

    It is the illegal invasions that our Australian boys are thrust into, simply to provide oil and benefits to the USA, that sicken me. We seem to forget that Iraq was an illegal invasion that was based upon known lies (yes, we know the lies where known because of Wikileaks).

    There are much safer ways of getting our youth to have some respect. Giving them high class education, training and 'hope' about being able to enter and participate in this society, is a very good starter.
    Twila
    20th Aug 2012
    11:10pm
    Whatever, people think of the armed services, whenever there is a disaster, the services are the first ones on the ground to organise the situation for aid workers. Without their action, aid workers would not be able to function.

    I know many have views about National Service. One woman said she wouldn't want her son in the army unless we were attacked here. Well ... if we were fighting on our own soil, we would be in dire straits. One response was ... would she be driving her son forth from the 'fighting arena'?

    However, National Service isn't all about killing, it is also about surviving in a war zone. During WWII our men were given six-weeks basic training then sent off to fight a well-trained and prepared professional army. So many of these young men came back in body-bags. Do we want this for our children or grandchildren?

    No-one wants to think of family members killing others, but the reality is - if there is a war and call-up, better our children be the best prepared for it, rather than momentary cannon fodder.
    Twila
    20th Aug 2012
    11:13pm
    I meant to write " ... back and forth from the 'fighting arena."
    Twila
    20th Aug 2012
    11:29pm
    As I understand it, there are not enough jobs for full employment. Isn't it better that those who want to work, are able to do so. Employers want to employ people who genuinely want to work.

    If there has to be people on the dole, better it is those who are work-shy, than taking an opportunity away from those who are genuine.

    Contract work seems right across the board. I know many IT jobs, and at the top end, are contract work. And it causes a sense of insecurity.
    Anonymous
    21st Aug 2012
    1:16am
    Well said Twila. Let those that want to work, work - what you have said is apt although people do not want to hear it.

    I agree with you about contract workers and the sense of insecurity PLUS they have a lot of difficulty getting loans (housing and other) simply because they are contract workers - even when they are working in the mining field.
    Nautilus
    20th Aug 2012
    11:36pm
    I am in favour of national service along the lines of Switzerland.

    Australia should also reverse the idiotic neutering of the school cadet corps that has occurred.

    However I do not believe that the arguments for national service are furthered in the context being discussed here. It is not a remedy for unemployment and supposed unruly youth and the jealousy of the young by some older people needs to be kept out of it too.

    History shows that Australia was wretchedly unprepared for the wars its governments involved us in. For a start there was the WW1 propaganda mythmaking, now treated as truth (?!), that prior to that conflict young Aussie men were used to handling firearms and living off the land. It was absolute rubbish of course. All but the very few were city boys who couldn't live without the corner shop (and a woman to buy and prepare dinner) and were very much at risk of blowing off their own, or someone else's head, if allowed near a rifle.

    We might fool ourselves by posing as tough, but the countries to the north know that we remain cosseted city dwellers, who could not live without someone else killing the dinner chicken for us.
    Twila
    21st Aug 2012
    12:47am
    Nautilus,
    I'm not sure how the Swiss system of national service operates. I have heard that all males have to do it - also there are 'refresher' courses throughout a man's life. Is this correct? I also understand that everyone keeps their weapons at home. Is this correct?

    I wonder if we should put all our elderly into national service (I am one of them). It sure beats the 'excitement' of waiting for the next hearse to rock up at our seniors' homes.

    21st Aug 2012
    1:08am
    One of the biggest things we have to grasp, is that any future war or aggression will never be anything like the wars of the past.
    Technology has leapfrogged so fast, that even our Air Force is in danger of becoming redundant as a weapon-carrying-and-delivering force - because in the future, smart drones controlled from safe bunkers, will take the place of manned aircraft.
    The number of Infantry on the ground will be minimalised, so the size of forces will be nothing like the past.
    During WW2, 990,000 men and women were in the combined forces, out of a national population of 7 million.
    When Vietnam was in full swing, the Australian Army comprised only 37,500 men - out of a population that reached 12 million in 1968.
    A total of just under 60,000 Australians from all forces served in Vietnam. Out of 64,000 conscripts called up during the 1965 to 1972 conscription period, only 15,381 served in Vietnam.

    The current Army is down to 24,790 personnel (men & women), with total permanent forces standing at 50,653 (Army, Navy, and Air Force). There are another 41,000 in Reserves (active and inactive).

    The numbers will continue to decline in total, and as a % of the population. Therefore, the idea of conscription for all "dole bludgers" is not something that can be accommodated, managed, or even be accepted by politicians or military heads.
    Therefore, other schemes that instill or promote self-discipline (which is what military training is all about) will have to be raised and considered, if there's a belief that this type of training and education is needed for the work-shy.

    Don't forget that quite a number of conscripts were totally rejected by the military, after being inducted, in the '65-'72 period - because of drug use, criminal behaviour, and continual, outright non-acceptance, of military discipline. I fear the % would be greatly increased with todays youth.
    Nautilus
    21st Aug 2012
    1:11am
    Hi Twila,
    See here and scroll down it to 'conscription'.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland

    Yes, the readiness involves keeping one's pack and gear including rifle and ammunition stored securely at home. They shoot at rifle ranges to keep up their skills and all consumables are provided.

    It is worth adding that Switzerland like Australia, New Zealand and most countries has a very low level of crime involving firearms. That is contrary to the intuition of gun control activists who predict otherwise.

    There is no reason why seniors couldn't act in support roles, eg communication and do whatever elements of the other training they can handle. We are not drones but we might handle one and beware of the oldie with a Claymore. LOL

    But seriously, the Australian society is very dismissive and disrespectful of anyone over middle age. By way of example, the help of the many Grey nomads who volunteered to assist indigenous in remote areas (and bring their own self-sufficiency with them as caravans) was spurned out of hand by the very advocates who said there was no help available. Figure that one out!
    Twila
    21st Aug 2012
    2:12am
    Thank you Nautilus,

    Yes, although being a girl, I was taught how to handle a Brauning automatic (semi-automatic they call it now) at the age of 14 yrs. I lived for 7 years in Malaysia during the Emergency, and it was necessary. I never had the urge to run amok with it.

    I'm sure many seniors could be well used in the services - certainly, many already have the necessary experience; and if they are able and want to, why not?

    I am truly horrified at what you state about the rejection of Grey nomads. Insanity!!
    What a wealth of generosity and experience, both life and practical, such people would bring. Would it be the so-called advocates' jealous of their patch.
    Anonymous
    21st Aug 2012
    2:15am
    ooooo....there was a programme that I developed, after the concept had been handed to me, that related to just that - grey nomads volunteering to assist indigenous people in remote areas. I had developed the whole scenario and showed how it could work, right down to info and training videos (for the grey nomads) with a minimal budget of $150,000 a year (it was 24 years ago). The problem was not a political party thing, it was the petty jealousies of lower department management and some gurus or govt advisers wanting to control the whole show, themselves (rather than the indigenous people).

    Some of the indigenous peoples were very isolated and sensitive culturally, so it was necessary to put in place intermediaries such as Aboriginal Associations at the nearby stations/towns to assist but not to direct the indigenous people. It was designed for the indigenous people to always retain control of the situation but to allow grey nomads to experience a different culture and at the same time impart some of their knowledge and skills to the people.
    I even did a test run of a three grey nomads and it all went off very well, one in particular was brilliant. All involved got something out of it.
    When gathering and selecting the grey nomads to take part in our trial run, it became obvious that all future Grey Nomads would need to be interviewed and receive some training (hence the videos) because there were some really inappropriate people that applied. Maybe this is the area that would cause problems in this day and age.
    I was assisting with 'refurbishing' the NEIS scheme (a joint Commonwealth and State initiative) and this was thrust upon me. I even did a radio show about it and I have just now (after 24 years) thrown out all the flyers, documents, videos, and concept proposal paper with recommendations to implement.

    After babbling on I hope this is the same thing you are talking about! Wow....being brought up after all this time, I was young and enthusiastic with just a touch naivety when I did this....the memories!
    Twila
    21st Aug 2012
    2:31am
    Mussitate,

    I think the idea of Aboriginal intermediaries is absolutely sound. Some years ago I was having coffee with some indigenous women after a meeting. The issue of problems within the indigenous communties was discussed. They said that this was due to their menfolk having been emasculated. This made so much sense. What do you think?
    Anonymous
    21st Aug 2012
    3:45am
    Don't like to suggest I know the Aboriginal culture, I do not. A window opens every now and again and I get a glimpse of understanding and then its gone.

    However, I agree that the male role has been usurped by western society but that the female role has basically remained (ie. caring and nurturing children and providing food).

    Employment prospects of an uneducated Aboriginal man in modern day western society, are abysmal. Add to that cultural requirements and it is simply not going to happen.

    I keep starting to recommend how this could change and then stop because it has been done so badly before that it is difficult to recommend it again.

    Okay, here goes......Education is the key, but not standard institutional education, it has to be presented differently.

    I worked with Aboriginal people approx. 16 years ago and I have seen young men walk out of the bush, sit down at an Apple computer (Apple computers were more media/graphics orientated back then) and within 30 minutes they were able to do things I couldn't do. The women were also excellent with computers.

    We need to ensure that Aboriginal people get access to computers and technology - computers and technology are our future and maybe, we can ensure that Aboriginal men and women are swept up in this future.

    So, education that is delivered differently (I am not a teacher but I would love to instigate a system I have been looking at for some time, whereby the students teach each other as well as a teacher imparting knowledge - ages would be basically ignored and the subject matter being predominant). Also, a great deal of that education should include access to up to date computer technology, also taught differently - not strict institutional methodology - more 'open plan' and experimental.

    Well that was way too much. You may hesitate to ask my thoughts next time, sorry.
    Twila
    21st Aug 2012
    2:51am
    By 'emasculated', these women meant the significant postition their men had within their societies had been taken from them.
    AlbertC
    21st Aug 2012
    6:21am
    like a few of you said it does not have to mean using weapons the engineers doing road work building bridges building houses fighting fires proving your worth getting promoted and installing pride within yourself you can go in as a lowly undisciplined recruit and come out a fully trained person x serviceman be it army air force or navy holding a record of your time in the forces to show to a possible employer who is wiling to pay top money for all your experiences have a good look around and see how many x service personnel now work in top jobs .have a nice day.
    gonebush
    21st Aug 2012
    6:23am
    national service wont work, all because it would cost more than the dole and not everbody is fit enough for the services,so yes sounds good but governments would not commit political suicide in bringing it in,work for the dole is a farce and sending them to do further education is also not working what happens when you cannot do anymore schooling then where are the jobs to be found what happens is that all that schooling we end up with heaps of highly educated labours or people doing meanily work just for the sake of having a job,and when it comes to the part of doing some of these low paid jobs they dont want to do it so we get people from overseas to do it nobody has the answer politicans cannot fix the problem this has been going on for decades sorry to say it will keep going on for decades,we still bring migrants into the country the crime rate is higher so wheres the answer at this point in time there isnt one we just have to put up with it because nothings going to change
    grumpy old woman
    21st Aug 2012
    7:17am
    National service does not, necessarily, equal military service and this has been well-discussed above. It must, however, be for all young people regardless of university intentions or not so not targeted at unemployed. How about a national service that doesn't infer any connection at all with the military but focusses on community service unless the person - yes, it would cost mega-bucks but just think of the reduction in social security services costs as a result.
    The issue of people over - say 30 - are another matter altogether. People can have disabilities which do not prevent them working but definitely prevent them doing certain types of work.
    Whatever we call it and however it works, National Service has the support of some young unemployed males. I did voluntary work with one such. But to repeat, it MUST be for all at 18-25 and have no connection to employment, further study or whatever - a good scheme might also allow in its make-up for people with various disabilities.
    grumpy old woman
    21st Aug 2012
    7:19am
    Oh, and I do know of some government schools that were so over-endowed with equipment, partly due to the parents' work in fund-raising, that it was embarassing.
    Pass the Ductape
    21st Aug 2012
    7:36am
    I don't think we should blame the so-called 'dole bludgers'!

    I wonder if anyone realises the true reason as to why so many people are out of work? Despite the nay-sayers, there is just not enough of the right type of work available!

    Technology was supposed to mean that mechanisation would release human beings from the drudgery of work and provide more leisure time for everyone. Well the first part of the equation might be true but the second part was never going to happen!

    In simple terms: A machine doesn't get paid, nor does it consume the products it makes - so if a machine puts a person out of work - that particular person receives no pay and has no purchasing power to buy what the machine produces.

    Years ago, pretty well everyone had a job because there were so many other opportunities.

    Just one example: The thousands of toll girls employed by the PMG, working switch boards. The system is now fully automated and those girls had to find work elsewhere and while some of these girls did manage to find other work, many did not.

    Transposing this down the line to the present, the top of the pyramid is slowly coming into view and there aren't many places left where we can go; so it might be said that we are only reaping what we have sown.
    Anonymous
    21st Aug 2012
    10:32am
    Ductape, there's plenty of work available - the problem is, the education system, rich parents, and the media (including the advertising industry) have all led the younger generation to expect huge pay for very little exertion - and that they shouldn't have to go further than 5kms from home to get it.
    I spent most of my working life, working in the country, in the Wheatbelt and Goldfields, and in remote areas, where no-one wanted to go. I left home at 16 and worked long hours in isolated spots, with little entertainment, and even worse, no girls.
    Meantimes, mates in the city worked 9 to 5, partied every second night, and got all the girls and entertainment they wanted, and saw their families every day. Once I became an employer, I couldn't get employees to work in these remote areas, despite being generous with time off, to go back to the city for breaks.

    Nothing has changed in 40 years, I used to get dole recipients turn up for work, and they wouldn't work in an iron lung. They complained about the dust, the heat, the flies, the long hours. I had to think for them, because they couldn't see any work to be done, and would sit on their bums every chance they got. Dope smokers were prevalent, and it took time to weed them out (literally).

    I often wonder where all these people ended up that I sacked because I couldn't get any work out of them. No doubt they found their niche, collecting money for very little effort - but I found that the harder you worked, and the further from home you were, the bigger the rewards were.
    Pass the Ductape
    21st Aug 2012
    12:01pm
    Yes - well you make some good points Aaron although I don't think it changes anything. You can't blame young people for taking the easy way out when they've been taught that life is easy and we're here to enjoy it as best we can. And I doubt you'll never convince anyone that it's better working in the dust, flies and heat for meagre wages - when they can sit on the beach or go to town and enjoy life - courtesy of the tax payer.
    Abby
    21st Aug 2012
    10:25am
    We seem to be breeding generations of unemployed and as said by others they are actually unemployable. Is this a learnt behaviour at home ? As to how to motivate them is very difficult like you can bring a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.
    Doodlebug44
    21st Aug 2012
    11:30am
    Listening to 3AW yesterday, someone suggested to Neil Mitchell the dole should be raised by $50 a week (or some such figure) to give the unemployed funds for public transport to look for work as they couldn't afford the fares. Made me smile to think how much would be spent on transport and how much on cigarettes, they never seem to be short of a ciggie!!!
    Peaceful
    21st Aug 2012
    11:43am
    Agree with many of the sentiments expressed by 'Mussitate'.
    In addition, have people on here totally forgotten about the exposure of the long-standing and endemic sexual and other abuse within our Armed Forces? Do we want to send those already disadvantaged citizens into such a toxic environment - not to mention the very real risk of death, or serious physical and psychological injury in the war zones ?? National Service is not the answer, I feel. Learning respect, self-discipline etc clearly has not worked for many of those abusers and their victims in the forces!
    toot2000
    21st Aug 2012
    12:06pm
    I pity anyone on the dole and feel very sorry for their children who are destined to live a lifetime of poverty. Education is the only way out.
    Grateful
    21st Aug 2012
    1:24pm
    I too have great pity for the unemployed. People in this forum have suggested that the "problem" lies in the lack of respect and discipline in the home. Isn't that THE problem? There are so many kids who do not live in "homes" as we knew them. Nearly 50% of marriages end in divorce, single parents, usually mums, are deserted and left with a few kids to raise, mainly on a pittance of a salary. These mums are exhausted when they are "home" and find it near impossible to do the hard yards that are so essential in parenting.
    We have to start looking for the causes before we start using band aids to "cure" them.
    I have seen it developing over the last 25 years, when I have seen parents getting into too much debt to pay for their 40 square houses with "rumpus rooms" and now, "entertainment rooms" and competing with investors to buy those houses, investors who are given as much money as they want from the banks and can vrtually pay any price knowing that the taxation system will subsidize them through negative gearing.
    Also, when teachers lost their "right" to discipline school kids. They then lost total respect and when you added that to no parent being at home, with both having to work to pay their inflated mortgages, the kids had NO direction and were left to their own devices. And we all know what happens with idle hands.
    And this has mushroomed through an entire generation like a cancer with not much on the immediate horizon to change that.
    Un-employment is far from simply providing jobs, it is a systemic problem that must start by providing parents with the opportunity to be able to be parents, the way we knew them to be when we were growing up. Someone at home when we got home from school, respect for the authority of the parents and most importantly, respect for the authority of teachers. They are basic fundamentals that must be instilled into children throughout their formative years. That which will develop in them SELF RESPECT, which, naturally, provides the necessery incentive, inwardly driven, to become a responsible and respected citizen in the community, as they learnt in their own homes and schools.
    Where does that start? It is a massive problem and one in which the entire community must become involved. Not just criticising the symptoms of what has become a very sad national disgrace.
    Pass the Ductape
    21st Aug 2012
    2:39pm
    "Education is the only way out " -

    How does that work? We have the highest rate of educated, unemlpoyable people ever.
    Grateful
    21st Aug 2012
    3:37pm
    Sadly, academic "education" is NOT the answer alone. Goes MUCH further than that and it will take years to undo the damage that has been done to this generation. Are we going to simply condemn or are we ALL prepared to start now or just sit back and continue this sad "legacy? It will NOT get better unless something very drastic is done to our entire community attitudes, starting with help for parents and more disciplinary authority to our teachers (and I don't mean wacking the hell out of our kids, just to replace the total lack of respect that is so apparent at this time). Must start "somewhere".
    Grateful
    21st Aug 2012
    3:40pm
    I don't know how many of you have been connected with junior sporting teams. Compare the respect that the kids have to their coaches to that that so many of our school kids have towards their teachers. The 'answer" is somewhere there I believe.
    Anonymous
    21st Aug 2012
    4:00pm
    Ductape
    No we have a two tier educational system which gives one all the benefits and the other substandard skills with little benefits. The gap is widening.

    Dressing them up as soldiers to be cannon fodder in foreign countries, for the benefit of other foreign countries, because they couldn't afford the first tier of the education system is an insidious option.

    We need to upgrade our education system to a results based system BUT with additional assistance given to public school teachers to cope with the huge lag that will initially be evident. It will also sort out those teachers who are coasting and not inputing. This was tried by Labor (I think? doesn't really matter who it was) but there was a huge outcry from the teachers and their unions and it reverted.

    Anyway, I agree with toot2000, education is the key but we have to
    de-institutionalise and innovate further.
    Peaceful
    21st Aug 2012
    12:44pm
    Doodlebug44 - not everyone on the 'dole' smokes - or for that matter, drinks alcohol or gambles! Again I ask, please don't tar everyone with the same brsuh!
    Sylvia
    21st Aug 2012
    1:26pm
    When people get going on the topic of serving their country, it opens all kinds of problems, but the bottom line is surely all would fight for Australia if that day should ever come, count me in! it takes what ever each and every one could do guard our freedom, good men have died through the centuarys doing just that,and none of us would have this freedom of speech and thought were it not for them.
    We have to guard this right with every thing we can.
    As for taking in so many refugees, maybe that should wait until we have our own house in order, and our own people, fed, housed and employed?
    You don't ask the street to dinner if you can't feed your own, we have a lot of work to do here.
    evilmonk
    21st Aug 2012
    3:27pm
    National Service? Hell NO!

    Voluntary work? Yes. But. There is a huge But.

    Here's a tale for you. 18yo completed Year 12 with good results. Was working nights and weekends all through Year 11 and Year 12, with most money going to help out his mother to pay off the debts his father left her with. 1 week after turning 18, he was informed that his casual work was at an end as they had no hours available. In reality they employed a 16yo at much lower wages.
    He lives in a small town with few jobs available, but has applied for over 50 in three months. He has approached the local opshop and nursing home offering to do voluntary work to get some experience in retail and healthcare but is brushed aside and told 'we only have volunteers over 50 here" and "we don't allow teenagers to volunteer as they would have access to drugs".
    He has offered to mow lawns for free - and had the police called on him and been treated like he was preparing to rob the home owners he approached (all with uncared for lawns and obviously in need of a bit of help)
    He advertised as a babysitter (he has several younger siblings and is very good with kids) and actually had someone call him and accuse him of being a pedophile because he wanted to look after kids.
    There are no more options in his town for voluntary work and he's been accused and abused when he has tried to get out and keep himself busy.
    Last month he attempted suicide.

    Not all young people are dole-bludgers. Some desperately don't want to be on any Centrelink payments but because they are young, don't get a chance to get off them. There are enough comments in this thread giving the same attitude as he got to really concern me.
    toot2000
    21st Aug 2012
    3:33pm
    That young man sounds as though he has potential, he should hightail it out of that town into the nearest city as fast as his legs can carry him.
    Grateful
    21st Aug 2012
    3:45pm
    Yes, Toot2000. Sadly many of our younger generation who live in regional towns will just have to do that gut wrenching thing, leave home and either go west young man and make their fortune like so many have had to do in the past. Probably get a fly in fly out job paying a bundle and be the toast of his town.
    toot2000
    21st Aug 2012
    3:28pm
    According to government stats, youth most at risk of unemployment come from a low socioeconomic background, have left school early, can’t read or add up properly and live in rural areas.

    The best way a parent can give their child a head start in life is to keep them at school to complete year 12 and thereafter, prepare them for more study, either at university or TAFE. A parent who allows their child to leave school in year 10 and sends them out into the world without any skill, is a bad parent IMO, they are responsible for their child's success.
    Grateful
    21st Aug 2012
    3:52pm
    Toot2000. Far too many of those parents that are from "low socio economic" backgrounds are either single mums or wives that have been deserted by some a/h of a bloke and left them with no funds or shelter. That's another place that we should start looking for reasons and more consequences. Why do nearly 50 % of marriages end up in divorce and what is being done to get those family deserters from accepting responsibility for the children that they have assisted in creating? FAR too simple for blokes to just walk out on the mums and pay "child support". "Support!!! What a joke. (and for the politically correct, I am not tarring ALL men who desert as being at fault, but, the vast majority are).
    Abby
    21st Aug 2012
    3:55pm
    Yes these days they are still very immature at 16 even if they've had worldly experiences of sex, drink and smoke.
    Beemee
    21st Aug 2012
    5:06pm
    Oh yes bring back National Conscription or similar to get these kids disciplined. How much bad mouthing are they going to do with a hardened Sergeant starts barking out orders within 4 inches of their face.
    This is what most of the kids need today, discipline, and it may go even further to giving these kids respect for themselves and for others.
    Abby
    21st Aug 2012
    6:08pm
    What is wrong with the parents issuing the discipline these days ?
    musicveg
    21st Aug 2012
    6:08pm
    So many comments and heated debate.How many of you have been on the road of long term unemployment? Does anyone know that the government has now decided to cut back funding on Tafe? Also the baby bonus has contributed to more young people having babies as they can't afford to live on the dole so they choose to keep having more babies,that way they get the bonus and family allowances. No point trying to get the very long term unemployed to get work they are too far gone and no-one would employ them. If we take the dole away the increase of crime will go up overnight dramatically, do you want your house robbed every night? do you want to live in fear? The low income of the dole already contributes hugely to crime as you can't afford to better your life,you have to share housing with others creating temptations and stress because rent is too high,you have to eat cheap unhealthy food which makes you tired and lazy,and eventually you lose hope. Its a hard road to get out of. We need to help young people early,while they are still in school and not give them the dole so young and the government needs to provide more training options,bring back trade school,and give a bonus to those who do volunteer work learning new skills. There are much better options than national service which won't work,they don't need to be disciplined they need to learn self discipline and self worth. Lets help them to get out of the holes they find themselves in believing there are no other options,look out for those who really want to try and help them first. We also need to stop out sourcing work overseas too. Things are not want they used to be so the problems are not that easy to solve,we need constructive action not criticism.
    evilmonk
    21st Aug 2012
    6:32pm
    So many people saying how disrespectful the young are - they copy what they see and hear.

    Not an awful lot of respect being shown in these comments. Being young doesn't make you worthless, just as being old doesn't.

    If the young are not treated as useful people with hopes and dreams and integrity, they will not live up to those standards. You wouldn't like being written off because you are old (i've seen several mentions of ageism here) but many are writing off the young simply because they are young.

    Show respect and receive it in return.
    Beemee
    21st Aug 2012
    6:54pm
    Its kids having kids and not knowing how to show them the right way to be respectful.
    Of course add to that equation the so called rules about hitting your children, they can accuse you of abuse. Me I don't care, when I have finished tanning your butt, I will take you to the Police Station so you can have me charged. But right now I am going to smack your butt. Even at almost 72 I am willing to go to jail as long as my children, grand children and now great children learn respect.

    And for others that think treating one with respect earns it, get your head out of the sand.
    I walked home from shopping and passed a boy on his own of 3 or 4 years old, I smiled and said "hello". And what did I get? I was told to "Get F******".
    Yeah blame it on the parents who do not discipline their kids. Its like a snowball effect.
    Kids will not a sense of self worth unless they are disciplined first and if necessary in the Army. Once they know they are not the ruling authority on the planet, they will soon begin to respect their Sergeant or the one in charge, and then will come slowly the realisation that when doing well they will have respect for themselves.
    musicveg
    21st Aug 2012
    7:08pm
    .....and Telstra just announced another 350 jobs going to Singapore!
    AlbertC
    21st Aug 2012
    7:54pm
    musicveg you can blame the government for that .if the government started making a few changes to the work laws like changing the company's concerned some form of higher tax for every over seas employee they the company's hires say in Malaysia or hongcong then their is a chance that they would have 2nd thoughts. have a nice day.
    41Alpha
    21st Aug 2012
    9:48pm
    I come from a country that didn't have the dole and had national service for all males after they left high school.
    Gauging how 'horrible' a great proportion of Australian kids turn out , sadly lackin dicipline, national service could only improve things. it would be money well spent.
    Unfortunately dole bludging parents raise dole bludging kids and so the cycle continues. They also tend to have big families ( more money from centre link) So 'devolution' starts to take place.
    Beemee
    22nd Aug 2012
    8:35am
    http://www.brahminygroup.org.au/

    Have a look through this then state discipline won't work.
    Having seen the ACA show on a boy named Corey who was short of killing his mother with his violent ways, was sent to the outback to be straightened up, and those in charge weren't pussy footing around.
    The change in the kid in 3 months is astounding, he may well have further to go, but he is on the road to recovery.
    Congratulations to him.
    justjanet
    22nd Aug 2012
    12:11pm
    All the comments have merit but I like the 1from Grumpy old woman. I have worked since arriving in 1965 now aged 65 cannot get a pension as my husband 60 earns too much so much for paying taxes all those years ? I reckon national service would be good even tho it would as some have said would be political suicide either that or two years being in the aged care industry or shop assistance as both teach manners respect and tolerance towards others
    Grateful
    22nd Aug 2012
    12:46pm
    G'day justjanet. Not wanting to be critical, but the age pension is a "benefit" not an "entitlement" and is meant to only be paid to people who need support. If your combined income exceeds the Centrelink Income Test then the legislation stipulates that you are not in need and therefore are not eligible for government assistance. Many who have contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax during their working life will never get ANY benefits. In actual fact, far too many people who do not "need" any assistance are receiving the age pension and that deprives those that are genuinely in need from receiving more in their pension and the ability to buy those extras that the majority take for granted.
    Anonymous
    22nd Aug 2012
    1:22pm
    Grateful is spot on, with his well-worded comment. "Middle class welfare" - where very-well-off people are obtaining financial benefit that they do not need (or deserve) is a major problem today.
    Typical is the first home buyers grant, where wealthy home-owners with more than one property, are getting the first home-owners grant by utilising their children as a method of getting Govt money that they do not deserve.

    The pension and nearly every other form of welfare is means-tested to try and ensure the assistance goes to those who really need it - not those who just feel they're entitled to it.

    If your assets are substantial and your income is more than adequate to sustain a comfortable lifestyle, then you don't need welfare, and you shouldn't get it.
    Everyone that has worked or had a business has paid substantial taxes over the years. I wouldn't like to total the taxes I've paid, the total would run into the millions.

    If you have been smart enough, or shrewd enough, or lucky enough, to gain substantial wealth along the way, then you should be content with your gains, not looking to deprive those who were less fortunate than you.
    Many people have suffered financial disasters, not of their own making, that meant they lost sizeable asset backing.

    In these cases, the pension and welfare is designed to be the backstop to total poverty. We are very fortunate we live in an age where no-one has to endure the totally degrading, utter poverty, of the 18th and even the 19th century.

    Even my father endured near-total poverty during the Great Depression, tramping the countryside looking for non-existent work, as a young single man, and I never did discover how he survived - but I'll wager he went hungry plenty of times - something none of us have to face today.
    Grateful
    22nd Aug 2012
    3:16pm
    The Income Test cuts out where couples with a combined income of nearly $78,000.00 per annum cease to receive any benefits.
    Surely, a couple earning that sort of money, around $1,500.00 per week, nearly three times the COMBINED couple's age pension, shouldn't be needing, indeed, looking for a government hand out.
    The current income and assets tests for pensions are far too high and the rates of pensions being paid to legitimately needy pensioners are far too low. Solution??????
    Abby
    23rd Aug 2012
    12:15pm
    If people have contributed to the system, and saved their money instead of drinking, playing pokies and going on holidays, I cannot see why they should not be entitled to the full pension. It is not a Government handout for those that have contributed only for those who have NOT

    22nd Aug 2012
    12:59pm
    All good comments. But - and a big one - it all begins with the fact that we got signed up to the Rights of the Child with the UN during the Hawke/Keating years and without any consultation - in fact even today some parents do not know why they can no longer discipline their own child.
    .
    PC eduction has it now so bad that a child cannot be even told he/she cant spell etc or be disciplined at state schools and many leave semi illiterate. Methinks why so many struggle to pay the fees for private education and catholic usually for
    lower classes with little money but they do get some discipline there.
    .
    Also they are starting far too late used to be 4 which would save money for parents working and leave at 14 or 16 with year 12. Also not go to Uni until had 2 years working for money experience under their belts. TAFE should be a lot lower fees or scheme to pay it off like for Uni whatever we need trades and not all need degrees like the trend since the Hawke years when they lifted the TAFE fees out of the reach of some single mums. I did a course costed $5 each segment in the 80's in WA.

    Drinking and driving ages have never changed and now we have school kids of 18 driving and binge drinking as well as killing themselves - should lift the ages for both or take down the starting age at school to 4 and save on child care centre places and cost. Not do as this lit did and lift taxes on alcopops meaning they shifted to bottles of spirits making it worse not better because not got the common sense to lift the drinking age and this would lead of course to those usual negative comments by do gooders always shutting down good ideas
    .
    And yes by all means work for the dole - Council good idea for boys and get the girls helping home carers as part of it but supervised. Plus bring back National Service for girls as well as for boys and if they don't like it or have do-gooder parents then by all means community service which will naturally be less likely to get them to develop self discipline the very thing lacking.

    I see the usual no national service applies still - nothing wrong with being drafted into the Army and Vietnam - well - should never have gone. Most of the most stable countries in Europe like Switzerland have a compulsory military service scheme. More arms per household in that country where they take home their long gun and keep it to be ready for the call to service etc and strangely not got a lot of the crimes so many say guns cause like in the Us and now Sydney seemingly.
    Down to discipline and rules has to be - soft rules let them off and you get anarchy.

    Texas is the safest place they say in America - where you can shoot anyone who invades your home etc and all carry arms and they deal out the death penalty and have the lowest murder rate of any place else and no home invasions etc - wonder why? All aboard to go ................bit hot but the Aussie pension will go far there as their pay is lower so prices too. Maybe take a boat and rack up and demand a bit more than their citizens..........
    robby
    22nd Aug 2012
    1:59pm
    Where is the Army & Korea or Vietnam mentioned in National Service? Have any of you complainants ever been to Singapore, where all the bus staff are doing their Natios, as well as many other Public Service jobs. Apart from this, isn't it a rule that Dole recipiants have to apply for 2 jobs each week? The Services are desperately short of staff. How many dolees are asked to apply there?
    Abby
    25th Aug 2012
    6:39am
    Hmm! Our undisciplined young ones would most probably wind up mugging the pensioners on the busses and trains to get a bit of extra cash to support their habit.

    But otherwise a good idea.
    robby
    22nd Aug 2012
    3:19pm
    All the left wing do gooders seem to think that the dole bludgers should not have to work. How about they be made to sign on at the local football oval each day & sit on the rears & do nothing like injecting, drinking & surfing etc.?
    viscount
    22nd Aug 2012
    5:09pm
    This old chestnut raises its head again. Look at the figures for supporting parents and carers.
    Your hair will turn grey.The long term unemployed figures have remained the same for over 50yrs I worked for DSS for 30 yrs.Governments of both colours move them from Newstart to DSP at will. Google age of entitlement is gone for reasons it is being raised again. Ken
    Nautilus
    22nd Aug 2012
    6:47pm
    viscount, "age of entitlement"

    Good point. Maybe you should explain a little more for people. You have seen a lot and must have examples too.

    Miranda Devine has the big brass ones to challenge the political correctness that conceals and excuses the abuses of the welfare system and rorting of government money. She wrote this article aimed at women with a sense of entitlement, but it could be extended to any of the victim industries that have flourished since Whitlam.

    http://tinyurl.com/age-of-entitlement
    piklo
    23rd Aug 2012
    5:56am
    Gooday people
    its great to be alive I dont condone the dole bludgers that are costing us millions but the illegel boat people are costing us billions think about this
    pedro
    fpbsix
    23rd Aug 2012
    8:14am
    yes , you are correct , most people feel sorry for the boat-people , but its the money spent on them thats the problem , teaching them they dont have to work for their food & keep & accomidation ,IF the old aged pensioners got free houses & free food free everything . plus money to spend they would be over the moon .its the same as the people on new start & the dole, there NOT taught that they have to work for the money.US old aged pensioners have earned our retirement money , by paying taxes all our lives , what have the younger generation or new australians being taught about working for money .
    Abby
    23rd Aug 2012
    8:29am
    "what have the younger generation or new australians being taught about working for money? "

    Quite a simple answer to that
    They have learnt that if you squeal a lot and demonstrate in front of the media the politicians will cave in and shower you with money.
    Grateful
    23rd Aug 2012
    11:36am
    Sad that we have inserted the "asylum seekers" into this and again demonising them. You that espouse that thinking would be aghast if you knew how much is being paid for "middle class welfare" that is being paid to RICH UN-NEEDY people through tax concessions on superannuation, too liberal assets and income tests for Age Pensions etc , which costs us FAR more than we ARE FORCED to spend on Asylum Seekers by International Llaw AND the "dole bludgers" combined!!!
    That's where genuinely needy pensioners should be attacking govenments over as those greedy people that take those handouts are depriving you of those few extra comforts when it is now just going on overseas trips and petrol in BMWs and Mercs.
    Abby
    23rd Aug 2012
    12:07pm
    " when it is now just going on overseas trips and petrol in BMWs and Mercs. "
    Yes only by the Politician's joists
    Grateful
    23rd Aug 2012
    12:31pm
    Abby, not ONLY by politicians. I'm talking about really RICH people, don't think many politicians get rich being a politician. Millionaires are earning millions yet get massive GOVERNMENT subsidies and benefits through legalized tax dodging schemes, superannouation tax benefits, salary sacrificing, negative gearing etc etc etc. Would make your head spin if you saw the real facts. MANY millionaires pay NO tax at all. Abby, turn your angst on those tax and welfare loopholes that are the REAL dividers in this community and give the new Australians and politicians a break. They are an extremely small part of our financial problems.

    23rd Aug 2012
    1:20pm
    Grateful - Clive would like to have a word with you. He thinks your attacks on his hard-earned wealth are most unfair, and you wouldn't be alive, if it wasn't for all his efforts at making himself - ooops, I meant Australia - much wealthier! [;-)
    Grateful
    24th Aug 2012
    12:36pm
    Yes Aaron. Thanks for nom de plumes, as I am sure that Clive is just the type to come after me if he knew who I was. Any suggestions of millionaires paying their fair share and being grateful for the benefits and rich resources that the wonderful country provides is considered by the likes of Clive to be red ragging socialism.
    And we still have the likes of Abby thinking that pensions are an "entitlement" and that to have become a pensioner you must have drunk, gambled or wasted all of your money on holidays??? Goodness me if she only knew the FACTS behind our far too generous "welfare system."
    professori_au
    23rd Aug 2012
    2:41pm
    the comment about Australia signing up to the rights of the child.
    My children went through a stage where they would come home from school and say You can make me do this or that I have rights.
    Yes indeed I would tell them, so do I. With every right there is a responsibility.
    It is the right of the others to be respected and treated justly,
    It is your responsibility to do that. That includes behaviour and living codes to enable that.
    If you don't like living in a community and respecting the rights of others, you also have the right to go and live on your own like a hermit, getting little or no respect but not have to give it. a rahter lonely life.
    The other issue is that australia was a signatory to the rights of the child. However, it is yet to go into legislation. Too many vested interests are still arguing how it should be implemented. This after some 20 odd years.

    23rd Aug 2012
    11:21pm
    Have read right the way thro' these letters and have to say that there are areas and definitely complete streets where there are 3 generations on the dole in State Housing. Perhaps planning has a relevance too by forming Ghettos in which a way of life on the dole has become the norm. As retired people many of us do voluntary work but so do many young people & they are more likely too to be able to empathise with the youngsters too. Personally I would like to see more money going into the programmes aimed at helping young people, providing them with safe havens off the streets. drug and alcohol free. There are a few places like that in Perth and can and do help the young, often abused and depressed youngsters find self respect. More money spent that way would be a better way than putting them in the army against their choice, and with their self respect restored, as well as having to meet the expectations of the various refuges, they have more of a chance of becoming useful citizens. More money needs to be spent on mental health the closure of many of the mental health facilities in the 1970s? worldwide has caused a lot of grief.
    musicveg
    24th Aug 2012
    11:47pm
    I agree with vivity,thank you for having some compassion,more money spent on helping the youth who haven't had a chance to break free from what they have grown up with,need guidance and encouragement,there is hope for anyone to change,lets hope the government can provide more funding for these programmes.
    Nautilus
    25th Aug 2012
    2:10pm
    The social experiment is failing. Boys are discouraged and are dropping out of education. On the other hand, teachers believe they are serving affirmative action by channeling every girl possible to university study, where they complete generalist courses that only equip them for the public service. They become disillusioned too. When affirmative action targets did not succeed because girls simply didn't want to do the hard numbers courses like engineering, the instinctive knee-jerk reaction is to try to work out ways to change the engineering course to remove 'barriers' to girls. That must mean taking the maths out. The girls who are interested in engineering and are capable of completing the course feel devalued by the course changes to advantage girls.

    Then there is the problem of where engineers find work. No problem, just set affirmative action targets so the companies are obliged to make them supervising engineers in an air-conditioned office in the cbd. No field experience and again, the perception that any woman engineer is to be surrounded by cotton wool and cannot do maths.

    Indigenous - Again we see the concentration on university generalist courses eg indigenous law, to the exclusion of entering apprenticeships, TAFE and developing skills. Why? The explanation lies in ideology not reason or needs.

    Any wonder we have to import workers for trades and pay large money for them. There is no reason at all why young men and women shouldn't be streamed towards skilled occupations. Times have changed. The tools and materials for all aspects of house construction to take an example, would not tax the average woman. The skills are portable and women have done it all before. Ruled out by those who influence education policy though.
    rosemaryjune
    29th Aug 2012
    12:20pm
    Whilst I agree with National Service and hopefully they will gain training for a future job, they do not want people who simply waste their time and taxpayers funds or be a national security risk. Armed Forces get good benefits some of which is Tax free.
    Unfortunately there are many who apply for interviews simply to get their paperwork signed to get the dole. There are others who don't turn up after making appts. for interviews for jobs advertised, and others given jobs that don't turn up at all or make contact with the firm reason being legitimate or not.
    Also I know a married man with 2 small children who took a casual job for a few days, knowing that was all that was available with that company. After declaring his income to Centrelink he was actually worse off financially than if he had not worked at all. How much encouragement is that ???? Even if you work less than one day a week but work at all, you are not included in the unemployed statistics at all.
    Johni
    21st May 2013
    9:15pm
    That was surprising. Nice post and most informative. I am totally agree with you.



    Des Moines Boot Campss
    professori_au
    21st May 2013
    10:23pm
    I become very sad when I see comments about alleged Dole Bludgers. This is a "haves" against the "have nots"
    As a Community Advocate I see how people on pensions are discriminated against by people who have never walked the mile that the "have nots". Until they have alked that mile they have no entitlement to be critical.
    Our past governments have ensured the destruction of our manufacturing and rural businesses. Claim that people must become proficient in the IT skills. It allows cheap products frequently contaminated by bacteria and toxic chemical that have been banned for use in Australia. It has deregulated industry training and allowed it to be "Mickey Moused to a extent that it would take years to become qualified. With the lessening of a industrial base there are less jobs available. You people are exploited by never getting out of the minimum wage trap. They retrain, only to find there are no jobs in the area they were recommended to train and then they have to retrain in another field. No wonder we have so much depression and suicide. Instead of attacking the problems government treats the symptoms by bringing skilled people from other countries, increasing the population but not the employment base.
    We should be making our education system into what it was in the past when we were among the top four, instead of somewhere around 27 behind USA that used to admire our education. It will be difficult as many teachers command of English grammar is poor and too much of the education courses rely on cut and paste instead of reading and study. One of the ways to ensure it locking into our brains was to write out our essays and draw the images into our assignments. Cut and Paste does not do that. It is forgotten almost as soon as it is done.
    I once gave a talk on the mature aged unemployed. Many of them I knew and they were highly qualified in their particular profession. I asked what he had retrained in. He remarked he had been advised to train as a teacher’s aide. I asked did it get him a job. He replied NO!, despite completing some 200 odd applications to various schools and colleges. He told the audience the response was similar with those who gave him the courtesy of a reply…. We would love to employ you but there is no money in the budget for a position. This is where government had failed. If it wanted teacher’s aides then it should have increased the education budget to create more positions.
    Perhaps had this been done then the shortfall in education of some teachers might have been overcome by some of these re-skilled professionals?????. Most had been educated when the education system was that … education.
    The longer it is left to remedy this the longer it will take to bring the country back to where we can be proud and lift our heads and everyone is treated equally. We need protection for our rural community and our manufacturing industry. Relying on the resource industry has not brought legitimate taxes to the country as these companies use tax havens etc.
    Let us get back to a philosophy that believes in giving the other person a fair go.
    These changes will not occur until the public demand a return to lawful government and a realisation that Parliament is our servant.
    Twila
    21st May 2013
    10:37pm
    professori_au,

    Bravo! You have said what needs to be spoken.
    toot2000
    22nd May 2013
    8:44am
    I think Centrelink must be doing a good job when there are only 150 long term unemployed out of five million people, it's a great result. They must have separated the wheat from the chaff and when you compare this to the way the UK has created ghettos of long term unemployed, we're laughing.
    People who have a job are always the first to say those out of work could find work if they really wanted to. Those earnestly looking for work will tell you the jobs aren't out there like they used to be. There are many young people with degrees who can't get work in Sydney and it's a real problem.
    professori_au
    22nd May 2013
    10:17am
    I was contracted with a team of others as a consultant to the Victorian government with a brief to develop a programme designed to assist long term unemployed to improve their employment opportunities. The concept was initially started with the Coalition government and then finalised with the Labor government. It was so successfully it was picked up by the Federal government. This is one of the few times that both sides of politics in Victoria came up with the same concept. What was developed included some understanding of the problems of long term unemployed, e.g. lost self-esteem and self-respect, depression and hopelessness, so part of the programme was steps taken to assist those to overcome these and to regain the disciplines of turning up on time, taking lawful direction etc. The CES did a good job of finding positions and then assisting the unemployed prepare for job interviews. I would have to say they did a better job that those privatised job agencies do today. However, the constraint was that the role was to find workers for a particular job and this meant you had to have experience and knowledge to get the job. What we did was to provide training opportunities for the unemployed to enter and train in areas they had been denied access to and many gained a new career. One of the conditions was that the person in training was paid the same level as if qualified during the period with the programme. This eliminated those "sponsors" from sacking their employees and taking on the "cheap" labour and another condition was that the positions were extra and above their normal workforce.
    Unfortunately, with a change of government in the Federal Government it seized the opportunity to “bastardise the programme and turn it into “work for the dole or Traineeships that went nowhere and the people on them had to keep applying for new traineeships once the traineeship was completed and they were put off in many situations while the businesses to on another subsidised “trainee” and so on. Companies started turning employment into part time/casual positions hence there was no longer career paths and no loyalty. Companies complained that there was no loyalty any more. What can you expect? If you do not give loyalty to your people, you cannot expect it in return. The culture becomes “well I will take this job on until I can get a better one”. Unfortunately this rarely happens.
    I know from experience. A company I took over has problems with staff because as the manager once remarked “If I don’t kick their “A***” they know they are doing ok. I remarked that I had watched his face when praised for some good work his face glowed; didn’t his employees deserve to be given credit for a job well done? He considered that crawling to the employee and he was not going to crawl to anyone.
    I changed that and some time I collapsed and was ill for 6 weeks and I am proud to say the employees and my wife ran the business without a hitch. That would not have happened with the old employer.
    My philosophy is to respect everyone and give credit where credit is due; pay fair wages; (I never supported the concept of paying females less than the males). You as I did will generally find you have a loyal and productive workforce.
    Today it does not happen and when I have made that comment it is laughed at; such a sad state of affairs. It will take some time to change this back to a fairer system. No wonder depression and suicide is on the increase in Australia. There will be no doubt that my comments will receive negative comments to try and put down the idea. I would point out that I know what I am speaking of, having worked in those areas and spent time as a consultant encouraging this concept and seeing the results. Greed and discrimination is not a productive force, either in business or in society.
    professori_au
    22nd May 2013
    10:18am
    I was contracted with a team of others as a consultant to the Victorian government with a brief to develop a programme designed to assist long term unemployed to improve their employment opportunities. The concept was initially started with the Coalition government and then finalised with the Labor government. It was so successfully it was picked up by the Federal government. This is one of the few times that both sides of politics in Victoria came up with the same concept. What was developed included some understanding of the problems of long term unemployed, e.g. lost self-esteem and self-respect, depression and hopelessness, so part of the programme was steps taken to assist those to overcome these and to regain the disciplines of turning up on time, taking lawful direction etc. The CES did a good job of finding positions and then assisting the unemployed prepare for job interviews. I would have to say they did a better job that those privatised job agencies do today. However, the constraint was that the role was to find workers for a particular job and this meant you had to have experience and knowledge to get the job. What we did was to provide training opportunities for the unemployed to enter and train in areas they had been denied access to and many gained a new career. One of the conditions was that the person in training was paid the same level as if qualified during the period with the programme. This eliminated those "sponsors" from sacking their employees and taking on the "cheap" labour and another condition was that the positions were extra and above their normal workforce.
    Unfortunately, with a change of government in the Federal Government it seized the opportunity to “bastardise the programme and turn it into “work for the dole or Traineeships that went nowhere and the people on them had to keep applying for new traineeships once the traineeship was completed and they were put off in many situations while the businesses to on another subsidised “trainee” and so on. Companies started turning employment into part time/casual positions hence there was no longer career paths and no loyalty. Companies complained that there was no loyalty any more. What can you expect? If you do not give loyalty to your people, you cannot expect it in return. The culture becomes “well I will take this job on until I can get a better one”. Unfortunately this rarely happens.
    I know from experience. A company I took over has problems with staff because as the manager once remarked “If I don’t kick their “A***” they know they are doing ok. I remarked that I had watched his face when praised for some good work his face glowed; didn’t his employees deserve to be given credit for a job well done? He considered that crawling to the employee and he was not going to crawl to anyone.
    I changed that and some time I collapsed and was ill for 6 weeks and I am proud to say the employees and my wife ran the business without a hitch. That would not have happened with the old employer.
    My philosophy is to respect everyone and give credit where credit is due; pay fair wages; (I never supported the concept of paying females less than the males). You as I did will generally find you have a loyal and productive workforce.
    Today it does not happen and when I have made that comment it is laughed at; such a sad state of affairs. It will take some time to change this back to a fairer system. No wonder depression and suicide is on the increase in Australia. There will be no doubt that my comments will receive negative comments to try and put down the idea. I would point out that I know what I am speaking of, having worked in those areas and spent time as a consultant encouraging this concept and seeing the results. Greed and discrimination is not a productive force, either in business or in society.
    professori_au
    22nd May 2013
    10:18am
    I was contracted with a team of others as a consultant to the Victorian government with a brief to develop a programme designed to assist long term unemployed to improve their employment opportunities. The concept was initially started with the Coalition government and then finalised with the Labor government. It was so successfully it was picked up by the Federal government. This is one of the few times that both sides of politics in Victoria came up with the same concept. What was developed included some understanding of the problems of long term unemployed, e.g. lost self-esteem and self-respect, depression and hopelessness, so part of the programme was steps taken to assist those to overcome these and to regain the disciplines of turning up on time, taking lawful direction etc. The CES did a good job of finding positions and then assisting the unemployed prepare for job interviews. I would have to say they did a better job that those privatised job agencies do today. However, the constraint was that the role was to find workers for a particular job and this meant you had to have experience and knowledge to get the job. What we did was to provide training opportunities for the unemployed to enter and train in areas they had been denied access to and many gained a new career. One of the conditions was that the person in training was paid the same level as if qualified during the period with the programme. This eliminated those "sponsors" from sacking their employees and taking on the "cheap" labour and another condition was that the positions were extra and above their normal workforce.
    Unfortunately, with a change of government in the Federal Government it seized the opportunity to “bastardise the programme and turn it into “work for the dole or Traineeships that went nowhere and the people on them had to keep applying for new traineeships once the traineeship was completed and they were put off in many situations while the businesses to on another subsidised “trainee” and so on. Companies started turning employment into part time/casual positions hence there was no longer career paths and no loyalty. Companies complained that there was no loyalty any more. What can you expect? If you do not give loyalty to your people, you cannot expect it in return. The culture becomes “well I will take this job on until I can get a better one”. Unfortunately this rarely happens.
    I know from experience. A company I took over has problems with staff because as the manager once remarked “If I don’t kick their “A***” they know they are doing ok. I remarked that I had watched his face when praised for some good work his face glowed; didn’t his employees deserve to be given credit for a job well done? He considered that crawling to the employee and he was not going to crawl to anyone.
    I changed that and some time I collapsed and was ill for 6 weeks and I am proud to say the employees and my wife ran the business without a hitch. That would not have happened with the old employer.
    My philosophy is to respect everyone and give credit where credit is due; pay fair wages; (I never supported the concept of paying females less than the males). You as I did will generally find you have a loyal and productive workforce.
    Today it does not happen and when I have made that comment it is laughed at; such a sad state of affairs. It will take some time to change this back to a fairer system. No wonder depression and suicide is on the increase in Australia. There will be no doubt that my comments will receive negative comments to try and put down the idea. I would point out that I know what I am speaking of, having worked in those areas and spent time as a consultant encouraging this concept and seeing the results. Greed and discrimination is not a productive force, either in business or in society.
    professori_au
    22nd May 2013
    10:19am
    I was contracted with a team of others as a consultant to the Victorian government with a brief to develop a programme designed to assist long term unemployed to improve their employment opportunities. The concept was initially started with the Coalition government and then finalised with the Labor government. It was so successfully it was picked up by the Federal government. This is one of the few times that both sides of politics in Victoria came up with the same concept. What was developed included some understanding of the problems of long term unemployed, e.g. lost self-esteem and self-respect, depression and hopelessness, so part of the programme was steps taken to assist those to overcome these and to regain the disciplines of turning up on time, taking lawful direction etc. The CES did a good job of finding positions and then assisting the unemployed prepare for job interviews. I would have to say they did a better job that those privatised job agencies do today. However, the constraint was that the role was to find workers for a particular job and this meant you had to have experience and knowledge to get the job. What we did was to provide training opportunities for the unemployed to enter and train in areas they had been denied access to and many gained a new career. One of the conditions was that the person in training was paid the same level as if qualified during the period with the programme. This eliminated those "sponsors" from sacking their employees and taking on the "cheap" labour and another condition was that the positions were extra and above their normal workforce.
    Unfortunately, with a change of government in the Federal Government it seized the opportunity to “bastardise the programme and turn it into “work for the dole or Traineeships that went nowhere and the people on them had to keep applying for new traineeships once the traineeship was completed and they were put off in many situations while the businesses to on another subsidised “trainee” and so on. Companies started turning employment into part time/casual positions hence there was no longer career paths and no loyalty. Companies complained that there was no loyalty any more. What can you expect? If you do not give loyalty to your people, you cannot expect it in return. The culture becomes “well I will take this job on until I can get a better one”. Unfortunately this rarely happens.
    I know from experience. A company I took over has problems with staff because as the manager once remarked “If I don’t kick their “A***” they know they are doing ok. I remarked that I had watched his face when praised for some good work his face glowed; didn’t his employees deserve to be given credit for a job well done? He considered that crawling to the employee and he was not going to crawl to anyone.
    I changed that and some time I collapsed and was ill for 6 weeks and I am proud to say the employees and my wife ran the business without a hitch. That would not have happened with the old employer.
    My philosophy is to respect everyone and give credit where credit is due; pay fair wages; (I never supported the concept of paying females less than the males). You as I did will generally find you have a loyal and productive workforce.
    Today it does not happen and when I have made that comment it is laughed at; such a sad state of affairs. It will take some time to change this back to a fairer system. No wonder depression and suicide is on the increase in Australia. There will be no doubt that my comments will receive negative comments to try and put down the idea. I would point out that I know what I am speaking of, having worked in those areas and spent time as a consultant encouraging this concept and seeing the results. Greed and discrimination is not a productive force, either in business or in society.
    professori_au
    22nd May 2013
    7:54pm
    Governments over the past generations are not about providing service to the people of the Commonwealth but about generating revenue for the corporation. The corporation can spend millions fighting other peoples’ wars; supporting third world countries to a better quality of life.
    The truth is that their lives have not improved so much due to corruption. You only have to see TV coverage of how little their lives have improved. Corrupt governments, politicians and government officials, filter off much of the moneys, leaving little for the people whom it was intended to help.
    I have no objection to helping others, otherwise I would not be working as a Community Advocate, but what puzzles me is that it is done at the expense of our own people's quality of life that is gradually deteriorating to meet the agenda of other countries.
    They have taken away the rights of the child and the rights of the parents. Parents are forced to break the law in order to comply with Centre Link directive to register and seek employment. With the cost of child care and after school hours programmes, parents are forced to break the laws that children under a certain age must not be left unsupervised. It is only parents on high income who can afford child care, etc. or have one parent stay at home and look after the children.
    Income for those on benefits can be reduced if they do not comply with the rule requiring them to seek employment.
    Arguments about low unemployment are not correct. My knowledge and experience leads me to believe that real unemployment is much higher than claimed, perhaps closer to e.g. 25%.
    Statistics are adjusted to hide the real figures, e.g. Work an hour you're not unemployed. Enrol for school you are not unemployed and so on and on, do voluntary work you are not unemployed.
    The figures are adjusted to whatever criteria and objectives are intended to sell the public.
    We would be far better to recognise the value of a parent (male or female) who can stay at home. Many I know contribute to the community by working on various committees, school canteen etc. So their "job” is just as valuable and in some ways more valuable than paid employment. Unless they register as a volunteer their work gains no recognition.
    You would have less problems where there is a responsible person setting a role model rather than allowing the kiddies to roam the streets. With more support for parents and allowing one parent to stay home to look after the children and family needs would help reduce the numbers of homeless and also allow employment of some of the genuine unemployed.
    I am not suggesting forced stay at home but it should be an option. More child minding and child care facilities be supplied not as a commercial option but as a service to the community.
    There are those who like to do voluntary work. I work as a volunteer advocate, using my experience, knowledge to contribute to my community. It is this mandatory voluntary employment I am against. It is mandatory conscription which breaches our constitution. It enables commercial charitable corporations to exploit a situation where they would have to pay.
    professori_au
    22nd May 2013
    8:25pm
    I was contracted, along with of others as consultants to the Victorian government, with a brief to develop a programme designed to assist long term unemployed to improve their employment opportunities. The concept was initially started with the Coalition government and then finalised with the Labor government.
    Success, it was picked up by the Federal government. This is one of the few times that both sides of politics in Victoria came up with the same concept.
    The programme was developed recognising some of the problems faced by long term unemployed, e.g. lost self-esteem and self-respect, depression and hopelessness, so part of the programme included steps taken to assist those to overcome these problems and to regain confidence and self-esteem and respect and also regain the disciplines of e.g. turning up on time, taking lawful direction etc.
    The CES was an excellent department that did a good job of going out into industry; finding positions, then assisting the unemployed prepare for job interviews. I would have to say they did a far better job that those privatised job agencies do today. However, their constraint was its brief was to find workers for a particular job and this meant you had to have experience and knowledge to get the job or you only applied for jobs within your particular skills.
    The programme we developed included training opportunities for the unemployed to enter and train in areas they had been denied access to and as a result many gained new careers. One of the conditions was that the person in training was paid the same level as if qualified during the period with the programme.
    This was intended stop those "sponsors" from sacking their employees and taking on the "cheap" labour. Another condition was that the positions were extra and above their normal workforce.
    Although “sponsors” tried to pay only what they thought was appropriate and uses the difference to top up their other budgets. It was part of my work to intercede on behalf of the people employed on the programme. One charity/denomination tried to claim that their members were not paid normal rates. They were told that was between their members and their beliefs but the unemployed were not members of their congregation and must be paid what the funding conditions required, otherwise funding would be stopped and it was possible they could be required to pay back the government for the condition as they were breaching the funding conditions.
    Unfortunately, with a change of government in the Federal Government it seized the opportunity to “bastardise the programme and turn it into “work for the Dole or Traineeships that went nowhere and the people on them had to keep applying for new traineeships once the traineeship was completed and they were put off in many situations while the businesses to on another subsidised “trainee” and so on. Alternatively trainees were paid the minimum rate but expected to work longer hours and not be paid, e.g. Trainee courses that included workplace experience: One case in mind was after I retired and a young student trainee contacted me to ask whether it was right that they had to work 10,12 or more hours and only receive the nominal $15 from the college.
    I advised them no. However, we could break it up in two parts.. Accepting a school = 8 hours then the trainee student could be expected to be paid at going rates for the particular work. However, what the government had not considered was how these extra hours should be paid, i.e. standard time or for the purpose accept that despite the Student school time it be deemed a work day for the purpose of working out how the extra time should be paid, e.g. penalty rates, super contribution, etc. Where the government also had failed the students was that when working after hours the student was not covered by WorkCare. Students were not covered under WorkCare. With work experience the employee did not cover them and would claim they were not employed by the, otherwise they could not offer work experience as it would raise their Workcover. I am not sure what the arrangement now is but this is how it was 20 odd years ago. I had raised this issue several times but nothing was done about it. I was told it was not my business anymore as I had retired.
    Companies started turning employment into part time/casual positions hence there was no longer career paths and no loyalty. Companies complained that there was no loyalty any more. What can you expect? If you do not give loyalty to your people, you cannot expect it in return. The culture becomes “well I will take this job on until I can get a better one”. Unfortunately this rarely happens.
    I know from experience. A company I took over has problems with staff because as the manager once remarked “If I don’t kick their “A***” they know they are doing ok. I remarked that I had watched his face when praised for some good work his face glowed; didn’t his employees deserve to be given credit for a job well done? He considered that crawling to the employee and he was not going to crawl to anyone.
    I changed that and sometime later I collapsed and was ill for 6 weeks and I am proud to say my staff and my wife ran the business without a hitch. That would not have happened with the old employer.
    My philosophy is to respect everyone and give credit where credit is due; pay fair wages; (I never supported the concept of paying females less than the males). You will, as I did will find generally you have a loyal and productive workforce. After all the business needs it employees and the employees need the business so mutual respect should be the name of the game
    Today this rarely happens and when I have made that comment it is laughed at; such a sad state of affairs. It will take some time to change this back to a fairer system. No wonder depression and suicide is on the increase in Australia.
    There will be no doubt that my comments will receive negative comments to try and put down the idea.
    I would point out that I know what I am speaking of, having worked in those areas and spent time as a consultant encouraging this concept and seeing the results. Greed and discrimination is not a productive force, either in business or in society. Remember, it might be you unemployed tomorrow and unemployment does not discriminate between low income earners or high income earners. You will receive the same security payment unless you are fortunate enough to have savings, then those savings will go before you can have any social security despite having paid Taxes towards such a situation.
    Pass the Ductape
    23rd May 2013
    5:21pm
    I get it!
    professori_au
    25th May 2013
    1:28am
    Now for a very, very, short condensed potted history of how we have come to the stage we are in.
    Firstly on the rights of the child. I believe it is important that it is recognised they do have rights. I should know and understand; having grown up in an orphanage where the children were used and abused without protection.
    The difficulty with that concept appears that what has been forgotten is that with every right there is a responsibility. It would seem to me that this part of the whole concept has been left out of the teaching, subsequently the youth of today, (not all) think only of their rights.
    The interpretation is we must respect "their" right. Agreed but what about the rights of others.
    I would argue the government has been responsible for this outcome with an emphasis on revenue at the expense of services to the public and also to their kowtowing to foreign countries and the UN.
    Because the first priority of the post war generations has been the accrual of assets and has become so important it has almost become mandatory for both parents to work.
    Parents are forced to break the law as the cost of child car and child minding centers is now beyond what the decreasing wages levels can handle
    Many young children are left unsupervised after and before school and have become self-centred (I blame the government as a result of breaking up the family unit and taking away the rights of the family) in order to gain high productivity, e.g.. Tax revenue for the government.
    Parents are unable to provide quality time with the children or even set good role models. The system assumes the role of the parents and does an exceedingly poor job.
    As our parliaments have become corporatized (without our consent) and high jacked the lawful government (you and I) and with aim is to raise revenue which appears to be syphoned off shore and not used for the benefit and services of the people of the Commonwealth of Australia.
    As Admiralty/corporatw does not recognise common Law, it believes it has no duty of Care nor have any responsibility to be accountable or transparent.
    The corporate governments uses Admiralty law/Corporate law; using a UCC (Unified Commercial Code), which is a part of the system laws aimed at generating revenue for the corporations. Common Law rights for the real live flesh and blood person has no place in the corporation. Thankfully the real live flesh and blood beings have stated to wake up and demand a return to legitimate government.
    Almost before the ink on our Commonwealth Constitution 1901 vested interests in our parliaments have acted outside of the parliaments authority and tried to change the Constitution to suit political factions.
    How you ask? Remember Australia was a pioneering country and distances were vast. Education was limited. There was no school of the air or correspondence courses for those living in the outback or even in rural areas. Education was available to the rich and those who live in town where there were schools. Many of these schools in country towns schools were basic and at primary level. However, most teachers were dedicated to the profession and did not treat their profession as just an occupation and where the basics of the three "R's" were well taught.
    The cities were a little better. The result is that the ordinary person trusted those they elected to carry out The Will of the People. Later better education became available, notionally to all, as after WW2 Australia sought to develop its manufacturing base and not rely so much on revenue developed "on the sheep's back".
    However, the problem with increasing education, you allow people to think and ask questions, including questioning the false governments. Subsequently in 1974 the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution was dropped from the curriculum in our schools and university and resulted in generations growing up ignorant of their rights. Couple that with a migrant intake that barely knew anything about the Constitution and its development, but many coming from corrupt governments, dictatorships, etc. it was easy to gull the people that these corporations parliament made the rules, not the government (Sovereign People). This is a very short an inadequate summary as the whole story is complex and I have spent many years studying it along with the proposed attempt to give local government recognition under the Constitution. Why do we need two level of local government with already another one being prepared. The state is local government and if we give these corporate councils recognition it will legitamise what they have been doing illegally and allow for more and more taxes.
    It would be better to return to the lawful government and funding to the states and local government services be made more accountable and transparent instead of much of the tax dollars going the states being kept back to meet the agenda of power groups (corporations).
    That would be much better than direct funding of another tier. It would not change the States activity but give more reasons why they should not spend more on community services.
    I has better stop at this stage before someone claims the topic is outside of this forum
    The question is it? It has brought us to a stage where our young are disenchanted, disillusioned, depression is increasing along with suicide.
    Don't altogether Blame the young or the unemployed. Parliaments have unlawfully sold us out to other countries; have signed agreements without the approval of the people.
    But be of good hope. I believe an increasing number of the population has stopped being so naïve and believing all we are told and are making efforts to bring back the government of the Sovereign people and expecting parliament to serve as our servant, not master.
    We were doing very well until the concept of "a level Playing field and Global Economy" was forced on the public. From there it has been a downhill slide. Until then we were pretty much self-sufficient and the living standard for the time was excellent. Jobs were freely available and there was a will to improve our lot.
    Our education standard and industry training was among the best in the world. We were proud to invite others to share. What was failed to understand was that the level playing field and a global economy was not meant to improve the standards of the poor in third world countries but to bring our standards down, allow corporations to high jack government and sell (give away) our resources and land to other countries where we should have been value enhancing those resources and subsequently keeping our manufacturing bases and employment and our rural production should have been protected from imports coming from many countries where standards were low or non-existent. Where chemicals banned in Australia were used without regard to pollution or safety.
    I predicted as far back as to when this concept was first introduced what was likely to happen and also Federal and state governments would hand over large tax dollars to the multi nationals who threatened to go offshore.
    Eventually the more intelligent among the political fraternity would realise that no matter how much of the tax dollar was given them, they would eventually leave to utilise cheap labour and install semi/automated processes they will leave. Automation is good in principle for the profit to shareholders as they can work 24/7 if necessary. However, they do not make good buyers and use the product manufactured. You need people to do that.
    I believe that if our manufacturing and rural industries had been supported and goods from other countries prices were forced to be compatible with our own products and not used to bring in cheap and often inferior goods to undermine Australian production.
    professori_au
    26th May 2013
    10:24pm
    My apologies for the repeats.

    I don't understand how this could have happened, not my choice:)
    Perhaps the Web was just adding its support to the comments:)
    Again Sorry it happened but I can't explain it, so would appreciate a comment from one of the experts to explain it
    zielwolf
    20th Jun 2013
    8:58am
    Newstart Allowance is an unemployment benefit designed as income support for people between jobs and looking for work. There is nothing bad in principle about programs such as Work For The Dole or a Community Corps, however people on Newstart should not be forced onto such programs while receiving Newstart. How are you supposed to apply for jobs, canvass employers etc. if you have to work for your unemployment benefits? The two concepts are mutually exclusive which is why such programs are irrational. They are not aimed at getting people back to work, they are behaviour modification tools, and politically popular with the masses who feel ripped off (until they lose their jobs and have to apply for benefits.) If people are made to work for their dole money they should be put on e separate payment which does not compel them to seek employment (remember it's AT LEAST 5 verifiable job applications per week) at the same time as they are working full-time equivalent at the minimum wage for state benefit payments. Tony Abbott stated yesterday that if elected, every fit and able person will be working, if not for a wage, then for benefits. Either Tony is woefully Abbott of the neoclassical economic model he advocates (which recognises a trade-off between employment rates and inflation, and sets the ideal unemployment rate at 5% to keep inflation at bay -simple supply/demand economics) or he is cynically exploiting the average person's ignorance of economic theory for political benefit. If we had true full 100% employment there would be no one left to fill vacancies and our inflation rate would skyrocket in response. Unlike most other developed countries (inc the USA), Australia has no unemployment insurance scheme. The dole is the only safety net we have. If we didn't have at least that and you lost your job you'd be left homeless and to starve.
    professori_au
    20th Jun 2013
    1:26pm
    Zielwolf.
    I tend to agree with much of what you say with an exception based on the remarks of people I work with as a community advocate.
    Please read my comments carefully and not misconstrue them. They are based on public comments:
    Preamble. WE need our education system to ensure teachers are well trained and capable of accepting their responsibility as teachers.
    It seems that teachers are being fully training, although I do recognise there are still very good teachers in the system. What will be the impact when these leave by attrition, health, etc.
    Student Options. Students face a wide range of options but they have little relevance to the workplace and once leaving school will in the majority of cases never be used.
    I am not in favour of “cut and paste” from the Web assignments unless they have not been thoroughly introduced covered by the teachers.
    I also believe more actual writing should be involved as reading up on the subject and then writing it down is more likely to be absorbed than a “Cut and Paste” assignment.
    Charities?? Since the corporatisation of many of our charities, as trading and commercial organisation they have become more interested in the revenue generation than service.
    Some so called charities are using work for the dole as a cheap employment option. I understand your comment about the process but it is not working because there is no understanding of the whole picture, e.g. an educations system that has failed the students and there is limited quality training available.
    Community Comments
    1. So called traineeships do not necessarily increase employment options, as the courses provided by the private training organisations are basically “dumbed down” and do not reflect the needs of business or to assist employers to find suitably trained and experienced employees.
    2. Employers complain that the "workers" are poorly trained and inexperienced and they require re-training by the employer.
    3. The problem with that is that the "worker/trainee's expectorations are that they will be able to gain employment
    4. After completing the traineeship/s and applying for jobs a few times and it is no wonder young people become disillusioned and depressed.
    5. One Trainee who had attempted suicide and came to my attention had been through several traineeships, e.g. plastering, painting, carpentry, welding, motor mechanics.
    6. Unfortunately as described above none of these courses could be considered on an industry base as they were limited, but the trainee was not told this, hence the road towards suicide after applying for so many jobs.
    7. There is a lot of money from the Federal and State government availalble to private providers to set up training programmes where they receive training funding and also subsidies to take on trainees.
    8. There is no incentive or pressure on the organisations to provide sound training and perhaps it should also include placing the trainee/worker in a job and do follow-up support. Anecdotal evidence suggests little of this is done.
    Once a person is placed in a job these organisations have no further interests. Why should they?
    They have fulfilled the criteria to obtain funding and subsidies.

    Please before being critical of these unemployed look at the whole picture.
    zielwolf
    20th Jun 2013
    6:05pm
    @ professori_au Hi there. I am not at all critical of any unemployed. I'm drawing on information presented in a UWS paper on the Job Network/JSA which draws out the highly ideologised, unproductive structures of the Howard/Rudd/Gillard systems that replaced the old CES:
    http://www.whitlam.org/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/181183/Rethinking_Australias_Employment_Services.pdf

    Basically I'm just saying Unemployment Benefits are for the fit, work-ready unemployed. If people have other issues, such as lack of training or skills which keep them long-term unemployed; or disability and health issues which keep them long-term unemployed, then Newstart Allowance is not the right payment for them, and there should be separate payments. Eg, a "Training Allowance" which doesn't include activity tests of looking for work while the recipient is undergoing training (eg "Work For The Dole" type schemes) and also bring back the Sickness Benefit for those who are temporarily sick (less than 2 years, after which DSP is an option). It's really unfair and really nasty that currently, people who are genuinely ill with things like cancer or HIV undergoing chemotherapy get placed in Stream 4 and still have to look for work and do "work for the dole" in order to get the Newstart (Incapacitated) Allowance. The system has been messed around with so much, it's totally broken.
    professori_au
    20th Jun 2013
    1:30pm
    Hi All again,
    I left out my parting question so here it is.

    Who is actually ripping off the system?
    The unemployed or the people and organisations that are supposed to be there to assist them to gain the appropriate qualifications and opportunities, but appear to be more concerned with applying for the grants and subsidies than providing the appropriate service.


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