Ethicist says we should incentivise vaccination with payment

Herd immunity requires that 82 per cent of the population be vaccinated.

syringe over Australian money

A leading ethicist says people should be paid to get a COVID-19 vaccination to help stamp out the coronavirus.

Ideally, vaccination should be voluntary, says Professor Julian Savulescu, from the Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics at the University of Oxford, in an opinion piece for the Journal of Medical Ethics. But because herd immunity requires up to 82 per cent of the population to be vaccinated, ‘Plan B’ incentives might be necessary.

“Vaccines are some of the safest and most effective interventions we have and have achieved incredible successes. We no longer face diseases that killed our ancestors,” he says, “but vaccine hesitancy is on the rise even for well-established vaccinations.

“The problem is likely to be bigger for a new vaccine. For established vaccines, some countries have turned to mandatory vaccination schemes. In an ideal world, the vaccine would be proven to be 100 per cent safe. But there will likely be some risk remaining, and there are risks that have not yet been identified.

Prof. Savulescu identifies four conditions that need to be met to make a vaccination mandatory: “A grave threat to public health; the vaccine is safe and effective; the pros outweigh the cons of any suitable alternative; and the level of coercion is proportionate.”

In August, health minister Greg Hunt said a prospective vaccination would not be mandatory. But he said Australians who reject coronavirus vaccination “could lose access to some welfare payments”.

“We reserve the right, subject to medical advice, to take steps that might assist.

“We are one of the world's great vaccination nations and I expect very widespread uptake,” he said.

“We are keeping on the table the existing mechanisms we have such as no jab, no pay (and) no jab, no play,” he said.

‘No Jab, No Pay’ is an Australian government initiative to help ensure all children are fully immunised for conditions such as tetanus, polio and diphtheria included in the National Immunisation Program (NIP) Schedule. To be eligible for the full Family Tax Benefit A payment and the Child Care Subsidy, children need to be immunised.

In March, the national cabinet mandated being immunised for influenza would be a condition of entry to aged care facilities in all states and territories.

ABC News reports that Australia is arranging access to 134 million potential doses of four different vaccines at a cost of $3.2 billion.

In an opinion piece in The Age, Victorian Labor senator Raff Ciccone proposed that people who refused a COVID-19 vaccine be barred entry from mass gatherings, restaurants and other private businesses.

Most Australians appear willing to take a COVID-19 vaccine, but a poll revealed 12 per cent were unlikely to take it.

Julie Leask, a vaccine research specialist at the University of Sydney, said the data was “fairly predictable”.

“There is (always) going to be a number of people who are a bit cautious and they understandably want to learn more about the vaccine before they really commit to it.

“And then there's a small number who will always be against vaccination.”

Westmead Institute founder and vaccine expert Tony Cunningham said. “The population has got to be assured of safety. That's critical. We're trying to match up the urgency of thousands and thousands of deaths in Europe and the US against ensuring that we don't make a misstep and have a vaccine that's unsafe.

“That would be a disaster. It would ruin public confidence in vaccines.” 

Prof. Savulescu says ‘anti-vaxxers’ may never be convinced to take a vaccine, but payment may persuade others.

“The advantage of payment for risk is that people are choosing voluntarily to take it on. As long as we are accurate in conveying the limitations in our confidence about the risks and benefits of a vaccine, then it is up to individuals to judge whether they are worth payment,” he says.

“If a person chooses that option, it is because they believe that, overall, their life will go better with it, in this case, with the vaccination and the payment.

“It is true that the value of the option might exercise force over our rational capacities, but that is no different from offering a lot of money to attract a favoured job applicant,” he argues.

He says a payment vaccination scheme would be much cheaper than the cost of a lockdown.

“It would make economic sense to pay people quite a lot to incentivise them to vaccinate sooner rather than later – which, for example, would speed up their full return to work.”

Are you ready to get a COVID-19 vaccine? Should a COVID-19 vaccination be mandatory?

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    COMMENTS

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    leek
    9th Nov 2020
    4:05pm
    I have no problem being vaccinated. But I might not have a choice. I am a Disability Support worker. not sure if our employers can enforce us to have the vaccination or not. They do not enforce the yearly Flu shot, but this is way different.
    Hoohoo
    17th Nov 2020
    12:18am
    Thanks, Incog. Mercury is another really nasty poison that accumulates in children (plus the added dosage they receive from their mothers while in utero, especially over the top if their mothers had a mouth full of amalgam fillings.).

    However, I disagree that COVID is not something to seriously worry about. I don't want to catch it because we don't know the long term effects. Many younger people who got it and "recovered" still have compromised health with indications there could be permanent damage to vital organs like your heart and lungs. The thing is we have to wait to know just how serious the disease is, even for those who survive it.

    Thank god we've been able to contain it from rampantly spreading in Australia, unlike other countries. What's truly frightening is the numbers of people in the USA who are contracting it every day. Some States are reporting that 50% of the people who present for a test actually have COVID. And yet, Trump's minions are filling the streets, toting their guns, believing there's no such thing as COVID, encouraged by their President to question their democracy and everyone's safety. If anyone rigged anything, I'd say Trump would be the first suspect. He reminds me of Hitler and his followers are blinded and dazzled by his power mongering. I can't wait until 20/1/21, when he'll be officially frog-marched out of the Whitehouse.
    Winston Smith
    9th Nov 2020
    4:23pm
    There has never been a bad vaccine in Australia. People like this professor (NOT a medical one) are actually feeding the irrational fear already out there.

    Make it as compulsory as a lot of the childhood vaccinations these days. You can decline, but if you do, you can't go to a childcare centre, kindergarten, school, aged care centre, or a hospital.
    johninmelb
    9th Nov 2020
    7:21pm
    Youngagain,

    As others have stated Thalilomide was a tablet, not a vaccination, and was only prescribed for pregnant women suffering morning sickness. It was not available to the general population.

    Secondly the rubbish about Autism. That rubbish was put to bed a long time ago. The doctors who pubished the original and erroneous information later admitted it was completey wrong.

    Nothing is ever going to be perfect in medicine, because everyone is different, and there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to medicine. In the future we will probably see more targeted solutions to the individual, but we are not there yet. In the meantime, those of us with enough common sense realise that a good deal (not all) of what our doctors say has a good chance of helping us overcome various illnesses and problems. I certainly have no complaints about any medical care I have received in the last 70 years. Maybe I have just been lucky with my choice of medical professionals.
    Winston Smith
    9th Nov 2020
    7:31pm
    johninmelb

    I reported Youngagain's post as being on a par with Trump's dangerous lies in his Tweets, which are now frequently being blocked by Twitter. Looks like the Admins here agreed.
    Lookfar
    9th Nov 2020
    10:00pm
    Winston, you come out with a lot of wrong ideas, I certainly wouldn't take your word on vaccinations, or much else
    arbee
    10th Nov 2020
    3:20pm
    Lookfar, I think that Winston makes a hell of a lot more sense than you ever have in previous posts or now that I have seen from you. You are so far left that you automatically reject anything the government says or does without even checking the facts.
    Winston Smith
    10th Nov 2020
    4:57pm
    Lookfar - Please prove that anything I have ever said here was wrong.
    Hoohoo
    12th Nov 2020
    7:20pm
    JohnIM and Winston, Thalidomide was an unproven drug which doctors prescribed, because they believed they were doing the right thing. People were led to believe it was safe, but tragically, it was not safe at all. It doesn't matter if it's a prescribed drug or a vaccination, the onus is on the drug company to prove its safety.

    You can say all you like about trusting the drug companies, but the fact is that any COVID vaccination has not been given enough time to be proven safe, yet. I'm not saying it's not safe, I'm saying I'll wait for others, people who might not survive COVID, to test the safety of the vax first.

    Normally it takes many years to develop a safe and effective vaccination against a virus, so it's reasonable to say that only time will tell if it's safe or not.

    Let me state clearly - go get the COVID vax if you are medically vulnerable or you think it will help you. But you have no right to bully people or force people to get it if they don't want it. It's illegal to force an adult to take any medication against their will. It's called consent and you do not have mine, not at this point in time. I might change my mind at a later date, but while I'm bursting with good health, I won't risk it unnecessarily.
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    12:58am
    I agree HooHoo, those who are happy to get the vaccine can line up for it, and others can wait and see how it pans out. Considering that covid has already mutated at least 5 times, has never been isolated and the PCR tests used were never recommended to be reliable, how will we even know the vaccine will work by the time it arrives it will be all over grover.
    Winston Smith
    13th Nov 2020
    10:10pm
    I have been watching for 60 years. No bad vaccines in Australia.
    Hoohoo
    17th Nov 2020
    12:40am
    Hey Winston - bad news for you because I have proof. Above, on the 12th November, you were wrong to accuse me of calling thalidomide a vaccine. Not only were you wrong, you accused me of being willfully ignorant.

    Now you'll have to define what is a "bad vaccine", before we can have an intelligent debate about that.
    KSS
    9th Nov 2020
    4:37pm
    The closest thing to payment should be exclusion from activities much like the no jab no play/pay already in existance. Funny how many would-be anti-vaxxers suddenly abandoned their 'beliefs' when faced with exclusion from child care or school or increased costs to their own pocket!

    It seems that people will likely need two doses of whichever vaccine becomes available so how much would this professor suggest they are paid? And when? After each shot or only after both?
    Incognito
    11th Nov 2020
    3:53am
    Have you got proof of how many "anti-vaxxers" abandoned their beliefs (or concerns which is more accurate)?? I think that comment is your own opinion and not the truth.
    Hoohoo
    12th Nov 2020
    7:43pm
    Incognito has made a very valid point.

    I think pro-establishment-everything people are afraid of those who stray from the herd, especially when the reason they stray is because they have actually investigated things for themselves, rather than swallow any old thing hook, line and sinker.

    I think it's a very healthy thing to question things. I wish more German people questioned Hitler during his genocidal spree. Too late now. That said, I'm very skeptical of most things called "conspiracy theories". In fact, it peeves me that people call me an anti-vaxxer simply because I question why so many toxins are included in most vaccinations. Apparently aluminium is deliberately added to enhance an immune response, even though aluminium has been associated with Alzheimers Disease. And then I'm accused of believing in conspiracy theories because I note that Big Pharma is busy developing new drugs to treat Alzheimers Disease. Yes, I believe Big Pharma creates illness so they can make more money treating the diseases it creates. So yes, I'm cautious about new drugs. I'll let willing 'believers' be the guinea pigs for any new drug, unless I'm already so sick I'm desperate for hope and clutching at straws. That's why I try to stay healthy and strengthen my immunity by taking a probiotic every day. OMG! It's available at the Pharmacy AND the Health Food store!
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    1:03am
    Thanks HooHoo, yes I am always been accused of an ant-vaxxer too, which is a made up word by big pharma to fight back against the tide of those who are questioning the safety of so many vaccines especially on children.

    If no one ever questioned what authorities did then God help us all.

    Keep healthy HooHoo, I do too, eating lots of fresh organic fruit and veggies, and other wholefoods, and avoid chemicals in everything as much as possible.
    pedro the swift
    9th Nov 2020
    4:43pm
    why would you need to pay someone to get a jab which could save their life? Sure there is a risk , as there is with going to bed or getting up. I like the idea though, pollies first!
    Many places overseas require jabs for certain diseases or you dont get in. We also need to ensure anyone coming in to Oz has been jabbed once a vaccine is proved.
    Problem I see, like flu, we will need a new vaccine every year like for covid-20, 21 etc.
    leek
    9th Nov 2020
    4:53pm
    Yep, I am concerned that it could become a Yearly Jab as well.
    rtrish
    9th Nov 2020
    4:56pm
    Many people are against vaccines on their principles (I’m not one of them). For myself, as an older person with a number of chronic conditions, I will be only too happy to have the vaccine, as soon as it is safe and effective. Until then, I hesitate to go on my annual vacation, which is travel by public transport.
    Winston Smith
    9th Nov 2020
    5:26pm
    rtish - Those "principles" you mention are ill-informed. I abhor the idea of health science being driven by ignorance.
    Mariner
    9th Nov 2020
    5:44pm
    If it is proven to work make inoculation mandatory for everyone. Live here in Hippy/Greenie area and a lot of people are against anything to do with needles that don't give them a high. A lot of kids are barred from mainstream schools because of the refusal.
    Let's just get on with it, we all have a shelf live but I would like to last a bit longer like most of the folks on this site. I would gladly pay for it as well, does not need to be free of charge, had the flu injection before they told me that I no longer had to pay.
    Did not even know there were two different flu jabs, one for everybody under 65 and one over 65. Went to the chemist to get the jab for $20 as advertised outside, told to see my doctor for a free one made for over 65s, maybe some Viagra in that one, eh? Only joking as no-one bothered to tell me the difference in the jabs.
    Hoohoo
    12th Nov 2020
    8:12pm
    Listen to yourself, Mariner, saying "...make xxxxxxxxxxx mandatory for everyone."

    Let's substitute "sterilization" for your "inoculation". Or how about "internal examinations" or "non-Jewish"? How about "tattoos" or "circumcision"?

    This isn't Russia, China, North Korea or Saudi Arabia, thank God! But you sound like quite the dictator suggesting to make ANYTHING mandatory for everyone, especially an intrusive health intervention. We have all fought long and hard to have freedoms in this country, (and I'm not talking about Trump-voters thinking they have the right to not wear a mask in public, because wearing a mask isn't a risk of making you sick - it's just good manners and being considerate, especially when COVID is rampant in the community).
    Winston Smith
    12th Nov 2020
    8:31pm
    Hoohoo - How do you feel about the existing laws that ban unvaccinated kids from childcare centres, kindergartens and schools?
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    1:08am
    WS the laws to ban unvaccinated kids is pure control measures to push all children to be vaccinated. If the vaccines worked then the children would be protected against an unvaccinated child, also there has never been any research done on unvaccinated kids to prove they are fine without vaccines. All the ones I have ever met or known over the years have radiant health with no allergies or autism etc.
    Hoohoo
    17th Nov 2020
    1:10am
    In answer to Winston, I don't bundle up all vaccines and announce yay or nay. What I really object to is laws that say people must conform to subjecting their child to EVERY vaccine (even vaccines for diseases WE all happily got as children), or else they'll be punished and penalised.

    When will it end? When they've invented a vaccine for the common cough, will they enact laws to prevent children from going to school, unless they take the vaccine? All that has to happen is for one person to die of the common cold, for the vaccine to be enforced on everyone?

    I think we are all being weakened by this constant stream of medications containing known toxins in small doses (which accumulate). People are surviving the diseases, sure, but then they breed weaker progeny. As Incognito said, the children (now young adults) who I know who didn't get vaccinated, are bursting with robust health, both physical and mental. I have a nephew who was never the same after been given the triple-antigen jab at 6 months of age, despite the fact he was suffering from cold symptoms. He was the most gorgeous beaming baby I ever saw. Now, in his mid 30's, tall and handsome, he's never been financially independent of his parents and never had a girlfriend (or boyfriend). His Mum died this year and he's like a lost puppy. So sad to see and I fear for his state of mental health. Was that a "bad vaccine"? All I know is that it was very bad for him.
    Farside
    17th Nov 2020
    4:16pm
    Any evidence to support your thought "we are all being weakened by this constant stream of medications" Hoohoo, or just saying???
    Hoohoo
    19th Nov 2020
    5:16pm
    Farside, how about YOU prove that toxins such as aluminium, mercury and lead are harmless? It's not the medicine, per se, that is the problem, it's all the toxic additives. The same for adding fluoride to the water supply. If they could prove it works, why don't they add calcium fluoride (a naturally-occurring compound) instead of a toxic cocktail from the scrubbers of a fertilizer factory's chimney?

    When I say "weakened", I'm talking from a genetic point of view, regarding survival of the fittest. We are saving many people who would normally die in infancy (just look at all the old cemeteries or your family tree, full of those who died in infancy). They never grew up to pass on their weaker genes to the next generation.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't use medications, I'm saying why add known toxins to vaccines? Why not make them safer? Modern medicine has made life much better for humanity. I survived encephalo-meningitis as a child only because of penicillin and a lumbar puncture.

    I don't believe in conspiracy theories!
    leek
    9th Nov 2020
    5:06pm
    Just read that the vaccine is going to be voluntary.
    Winston Smith
    9th Nov 2020
    5:26pm
    Where did you read it? Got a link?
    Tarlo
    9th Nov 2020
    8:11pm
    I agree Youngagain the jab should be voluntary. If people suffer from not having it /or having it, well at least it was their choice. This country should stay "freedom of choice" As soon as the vaccine seems proven OK, then I will have it for sure. I am 76 and I get flue shots every year. What a wonderful country we still have here in Australia. Covid has been kept small numbers compared to Europe or USA. Be thankful for our politicians and the restrictions they put in place. Why does human nature always say "We don't want to do this" ????
    leek
    9th Nov 2020
    8:30pm
    Winston smith- I read it on a news.com.au article after i did my very first post. I can try and find the link.
    Winston Smith
    9th Nov 2020
    8:34pm
    news.com is Murdoch - completely unreliable.
    Winston Smith
    9th Nov 2020
    8:35pm
    Tarlo - When people "choose" to not have a vaccine, they are putting at risk those people who want to but cannot have the vaccine.
    leek
    9th Nov 2020
    8:47pm
    Winston Smith Greg Hunt said it this morning, this is from a government website:
    https://www.health.gov.au/ministers/the-hon-greg-hunt-mp/media/interview-with-ben-fordham-on-2gb-about-the-production-of-the-astrazeneca-vaccine-begins-at-csl-and-the-result-of-the-us-election
    Keep reading, he says it will be voluntary
    Sceptic
    10th Nov 2020
    12:35pm
    Just what basis do you have for the statement, " news.com is Murdoch - completely unreliable." Winston Smith?
    Winston Smith
    10th Nov 2020
    4:58pm
    I'd ask what basis you have for believing anything from NewsCorp. (Apart, perhaps, from the footy scores.)
    Hoohoo
    12th Nov 2020
    8:22pm
    Well, I'm glad we can agree on Murdoch, but I can't make sense of your comment "Tarlo - When people "choose" to not have a vaccine, they are putting at risk those people who want to but cannot have the vaccine."

    Who are these people at risk who want to, but cannot have the vaccine? What is it that would stop them from taking the vaccine?
    Winston Smith
    12th Nov 2020
    8:33pm
    Are you seriously that ignorant, yet still post here as if you know what youre talking about? I really can't be bothered. Just take your ignorance and bigotry somewhere else.
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    1:10am
    Same goes for you WS you continue to post attack comments on anyone who has a difference of opinion to yours. How can a person who has not been vaccinated be a risk when those who are vaccinated are told the vaccine will protect them, what is the point of having the vaccine then? That argument does not make any logical sense.
    Hoohoo
    17th Nov 2020
    1:31am
    Winston, I am totally sincere and I apologise if I've offended anyone, which is most certainly not my intention. But I demand an explanation if you are going to call me ignorant and bigoted. WTF?

    So I genuinely ask again: Who are these people at risk who want to, but cannot have the vaccine? What is it that would stop them from taking the vaccine, if it's readily available to everyone else?

    And I'll further ask: How are people who do not have a vaccine, putting at risk those other people? I presume you're talking about someone who is seriously ill, but surely they're not running about in public anyway, if they're THAT sick. Please explain your outrage - I'm genuinely listening, but I'd rather you weren't so insulting. Maybe you don't have an answer, so you're just trying to dismiss me by insulting and belittling me. I won't fall for such bluster.
    Hoohoo
    19th Nov 2020
    5:18pm
    Waiting, waiting...
    Hoohoo
    21st Nov 2020
    5:11pm
    Waiting, waiting...
    inextratime
    9th Nov 2020
    5:41pm
    Another shock jock looking for notoriety. Any one with brains would be lining up to get the vaccine and some would even pay to ensure they get the jab. What's with all these commentators that think they have to their four penny's worth without being asked for an opinion ?
    Lookfar
    9th Nov 2020
    10:06pm
    How can you justify having an opinion inextratime when you want to take down everybody else's opinion?

    Sorry, you can't have it both ways.
    Hoohoo
    17th Nov 2020
    1:49am
    And this is the problem for all of us, caused by Trumpism. Can't we have a civilised exchange of ideas any more? Where people from both sides of an argument can present truths and facts to back their own position? Or are we being made to think we're so divided we're all either commies or fascists, with nothing in between?

    Trump has hoodwinked people to believe his every word because he trashes all politeness or the civil exchange of ideas. They just follow him blindly because he's tapped into them being poor, white, working folk, yet he's done absolutely nothing for them in reality, bar protecting American trade. Has this created more jobs in local manufacturing? Perhaps. But it certainly has not created higher wages for these workers, yet they blindly believe he has or will. For heavens sake, he's just a multinational businessman making a buck and feathering his own nest. He doesn't give a rat's about those people. In fact, he benefits from them suffering stagnant wages and being so desperately poor, they are driving down wages, which boosts his profits.
    Peter47
    9th Nov 2020
    6:04pm
    This ethisist seems to have lost grip on reality. The reason for immunisation is to protect the patient and more broadly the community from disease. This offers a direct benefit (with negligible threat) to all. Testing by competent medical laboratories has been undertaken to ensure that that vaccination benefits far outweigh any significant risk of harm to the individual. Conspiracy theorists (doubtless after considerable research via dubious sources on social media) would like you to believe that immunisation is some plot to harm themselves or their children. In some countries people need to be bribed to donate blood for the benefit of others. Does anyone think that the tax-payer, who presently already covers the cost of the vaccine, now needs to bribe people to do something which is beneficial to all? Sadly in our times many people are disinterested in the common good & believe that government (including its medical advisors) are working against their interests.What's next will we ask to be paid to send our kids to school?
    Lookfar
    9th Nov 2020
    10:09pm
    Well, Peter, Politicians get paid enormous amounts for doing more harm than good, why shouldn't we all get paid?
    Sceptic
    10th Nov 2020
    12:38pm
    Once again I must take to task another statement by a contributor that is presented without any proof provided, " Politicians get paid enormous amounts for doing more harm than good, why shouldn't we all get paid?" this is by Lookfar this time. At least it is presented as a question so perhaps he/she is not so sure.
    Hoohoo
    12th Nov 2020
    8:49pm
    Well Peter47, you're more trusting of Big Pharma than I am, with your "...Testing by competent medical laboratories has been undertaken to ensure that vaccination benefits far outweigh any significant risk of harm to the individual." Normally, testing would continue for some years before being called "safe". Obviously, a decision has been made to skip extended testing and no doubt some safety because COVID is so deadly for many vulnerable people. But "far outweigh any significant risk of harm" may only be true for some individuals, those who are already vulnerable to many diseases including COVID, those with plenty to outweigh."

    I am certainly NOT a conspiracy theorist, nor do I ever consult social media for news. I am all for social-distancing, mask-wearing and hand-sanitising in public. It is common courtesy. But inserting something foreign into me may not give me benefits that outweigh my now good health at all, nor should I be forced into your herd.
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    1:15am
    Tax payers are paying for all these vaccines that may or may not even work, never mind if it is safe enough, long term effects take time to find out and this covid vaccine is being rushed through, it has already mutated at least 5 times so by the time it arrives it will possible not work anyway.
    Sophie
    13th Nov 2020
    11:23am
    .
    So you pay a lot of tax do you????

    .
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    5:42pm
    How dare you ask Sophie!
    Hoohoo
    19th Nov 2020
    5:24pm
    What has paying tax got to do with it, anyway?

    Many people, especially women, contribute enormously to society and don't pay any tax. It's because they don't earn money for what they do. Doesn't mean they are less worthy in any way.
    Fedup
    9th Nov 2020
    6:36pm
    I certainly don’t believe people should be paid to be vaccinated. Not dying from COVID should be incentive enough.
    leek
    9th Nov 2020
    8:40pm
    agree, I don't think we should be paid. Happy to get a freebie though. I paid $80 each for my girls to be one of the first kids in Melbourne to be vaccinated against chickenpox when that first came out. I didn't even heistate.
    Incognito
    11th Nov 2020
    3:58am
    No one actually dies from covid, they die from the complications associated with it because your body is usually sick from other problems. No vaccine will give you 100% protection anyway.
    Winston Smith
    11th Nov 2020
    11:28am
    Incognito

    Doctors write a cause of death on a death certificate. They are a legal document. It is a crime to lie on one, so doctors don't do that. If a doctor says someone died from COVID-19, then they died from Covid-19.

    And irrespective of other problems a victim may have, if COVID-19 causes someone to die even just one day earlier than they otherwise would have, then they died from Covid-19.

    Conspiratorial garbage like yours doesn't help anyone.
    Incognito
    11th Nov 2020
    3:33pm
    The CDC in the USA sent a memo out to all doctors to put down that people died from covid even if they were only suspected to die from covid, the whole point is healthy people do not die from covid. A virus has no intention of killing it's host.
    Winston Smith
    11th Nov 2020
    3:45pm
    Utter nonsense. Quality evidence of that CDC memo please. Even if were true, only an insane person would follow anything from the USA as part of sensible response to COVID-19. A pointless claim really. This is Australia.
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    1:18am
    Sorry WS cannot find the memo, it has been taken down by the powers at be because they don't want anyone to see it, if I do come across it again I will certainly post it.
    Do you know how much money hospitals get if they put down death by covid?
    Do you also know about all the other mistakes that were made in hotel quarantine and in aged care? People in aged care died of neglect in a lot of cases. 99.9% of people recover from covid, so it is not a death sentance.
    Hoohoo
    19th Nov 2020
    5:54pm
    Pardon me, Winston, but Death Certs regularly avoid the true cause of death, especially when it comes to staph infections caught at the hospital. Opposite to Incognito's example though.

    Both my mother-in-law and father-in-law died in hospital with virulent strains of staph yet not mentioned on either of their Death Certs:
    Mum - "Kidney failure" named as the cause of death on her Cert, even though she didn't suffer from kidney disease of any kind. She had had major heart surgery 3 years prior, but the wound never healed because of staph. It was the ugliest wound I've ever seen, poor thing. She died with this staph wound and she was in an isolation Ward when she died, because it was such a virulent strain of staph.
    Dad - "Blood infection" named as the cause of death on his Cert, where he'd caught staph on an ear wound where a mild skin cancer had been removed. He had gone to day surgery for ray treatment on the ear on a daily basis for a month, but didn't even finish the ray treatment because he became so sick and ended up dead (not from skin cancer) in a very short time.

    Hospitals don't like the word "staph" mentioned anywhere, because it lowers their perceived safety in the eyes of the Health Dept and the public. Yet it's no secret that many hospitals are rife with 'Superbug' staph. Worse, antibiotics are becoming increasingly useless against the increasingly virulent strains.
    Hoohoo
    19th Nov 2020
    6:12pm
    Incognito, I think that memo you're referring to has been taken down because it was fake news, or should I say, one of Trump's alternative facts?

    It's ironic that the person who invented the term "fake news" just happens to be the biggest purveyor of it. Or perhaps this is part of Trump's plan? - to spread so much disinformation that people can't disseminate the truth easily, so they just fall back to their own belief systems. Add that to social media algorithms, where people are caught in their own belief system bubble AND DON"T KNOW IT, is a recipe for propaganda better than anything Hitler and Goebbels could have come up with. Imagine if the Third Reich had Facebook on their side. Eek!

    I encourage everyone to access news from a trusted source NOT ON THE INTERNET! Avoid Sky and Fox News/Newscorp, too, and anything extreme to the right or the left wing. Try the ABC, at least they are bound to present the News in an unbiased way.
    leek
    9th Nov 2020
    8:50pm
    I missed somebody being blocked? I have a nanny nap and miss everything. DOOH!
    Winston Smith
    10th Nov 2020
    5:00pm
    Just a typical anti-vax nutter claiming vaccines cause autism.
    Hoohoo
    19th Nov 2020
    6:32pm
    Hey leek, let's see if my earlier comment about my high-functioning, autistic nephew is removed? Here goes:

    I have a nephew who was never the same after been given the triple-antigen jab at 6 months of age, despite the fact he was suffering from cold symptoms. He was the most gorgeous beaming baby I ever saw. Now, in his mid 30's, tall and handsome, he's never been financially independent of his parents (despite a job of manual work) and never had a girlfriend (or boyfriend). His Mum died this year and he's like a lost puppy. So sad to see and I fear for his state of mental health. When his Mum suggested he shouldn't have had the jab at that time, she was accused of child neglect.

    Was that a "bad vaccine"? All I know is that it was very bad for him.
    Lookfar
    9th Nov 2020
    9:56pm
    Yet another chance for the self righteous to bully others, getting paid to have it blunts their teeth, - good idea.
    Country John
    9th Nov 2020
    10:21pm
    At the moment there is nothing clear about the vaccinations and who will or won’t have it. Nothing set in concrete as far as wether we will be made to have it or will it be voluntary. Perhaps when it gets closer we will know the answers but until then it I is pure speculation.
    Winston and young again. Let’s remember this is a place of comments not an all out debate etc etc. how about you both take a deep breath, count to 3 and come out agreeing to disagreeing before you get yourselves banned. Don’t take another one comments so seriously, we are all oldies and none of us have decades to live so let’s just cool it and be amicable in out remaining years.
    Winston Smith
    10th Nov 2020
    8:11am
    I will always challenge lies such as "vaccines cause autism". Facebook and Twitter ban such dangerous comments. YLC must too.
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    1:20am
    Then what is causing the rapid rise in autism WS? 1 in 30 children are now diagnosed with it.
    Hoohoo
    21st Nov 2020
    5:29pm
    Winston, if you define any opinion as "lies" as you have, you'll never open your mind to the reality that some children have very negative outcomes after being subjected to "routine vaccinations".
    You can opine that vaccinations do more harm than good, but you'd really have to do some research to find out just how much harm is done as well, if you were to come to an accurate conclusion. Unfortunately, you'll never find this information from any State Health Department, because they suppress such information. Why? Because they'd become liable to people prosecuting them when their child has a bad reaction. And then they couldn't force or induce people to vaccinate their children.
    Incognito
    21st Nov 2020
    6:17pm
    Big Pharma is protected from any adverse effects from vaccination, and proving it is near impossible, they make sure of that.
    I have see it too, my friends son was a bubbly outgoing 18 month old and now 11 is border line autistic. Always around the that age they change, might be a coincidence but there is a lot of these coincidences.
    Eddy
    9th Nov 2020
    11:06pm
    I will probably get the Covid-19 vaccination, but I will be close to the end of the queue just to be sure it is 'safe' and 'effective'. I am not against vaccination, I had multiple vaccinations as part of my service in the ADF and I can truly say I have never contracted Smallpox, Yellow Fever, Typhoid, Cholera, Polio and goodness knows what else (I cannot interpret all the medical shorthand in my yellow Vaccination Book). Some vaccinations (the first Smallpox in 1961 being one) made me as sick as a dog for a few days but subsequent Smallpox vaccinations every 5 years did not affect me.
    Aussiegirl
    9th Nov 2020
    11:31pm
    I am happy to have the Covid 19 vaccination but will wait until it’s been proven to be safe!I do not think that it should be mandatory or people penalised because they erron the side of caution!
    Winston Smith
    10th Nov 2020
    6:16pm
    There has never been a bad vaccine in Australia. Why do you have any concern at all?
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    1:22am
    Why are you judging people WS about having a concern of safety, this is a vaccine that is being rushed through, people have every right to be concerned.
    Sophie
    13th Nov 2020
    11:26am
    '

    People have a right to be conerned NOT to make baseless comments. What do you know about a vaccine being "rushed through?

    Do you know the steps of how this all works?? NO, I think not!


    .
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    5:43pm
    Mrs Assumption Sophie, how do you know what I know? Stop writing such dribble.
    Hoohoo
    21st Nov 2020
    5:40pm
    Sophie, you have a very closed mind if you think questioning a new medicine is a baseless comment. As I've stated numerous times above, most vaccinations take years of testing before being considered safe.

    I get it that the authorities want to rush it through because COVID is affecting the world's economy so negatively and that so many people are dying and having severe health problems as a result of surviving COVID. But that doesn't make any of the COVID vaccines safe, just because we're desperate for a cure.

    Stop trying to bully people into your belief system. If you want to be the guinea pig then go for it. It might even be your best choice. Just don't try to make out it's everyone's best choice. Like Aussiegirl, I'll wait until the guinea pigs have been used to test it further before I jump into the fire.
    Incognito
    21st Nov 2020
    6:12pm
    Hoohoo, Sophie likes to bully people all over YLC's, it is her favourite hobby. Does not like thinkers who think out of the box that she lives in.
    Hoohoo
    22nd Nov 2020
    2:40pm
    I relish the opportunity to call out bullies. Having studied psychology, it's evident that bullies were often bullied themselves, so their own bullying is a simple reaction to not wanting to play the victim. But it comes from a place of insecurity and not having control over your circumstances.

    No-one's beyond healing, as I've learnt because I myself was once the bully, during a time of trauma and personal grief. We're all human and we all deserve respect.
    Incognito
    22nd Nov 2020
    2:56pm
    Well said HooHoo.
    But don't forget some bullies and trolls get paid.
    Teacher
    10th Nov 2020
    12:12am
    Being an aged pensioner, for a few times I did not have the flu vaccine two years running because, having asthma and sinusitis, I had a reaction to it and actually got a bad dose of the flu. Early this year the doctor advised me to have the flu needle. I had been strictly self-isolating and didn't want to, but thought I ought, because of the threat of COVID-19. Well, again I got a bad dose of flu and was sick for a week. I think people with respiratory medical conditions ought to check with their doctor before having the virus vaccine and the scientists working on it ought to test it on people with asthma and/or sinusitis, hay fever, etc. to make sure it doesn't have a side effect on people with these medical conditions.
    Teacher
    KSS
    10th Nov 2020
    6:41am
    Can we just be clear about the flu vax. You CANNOT get the flu from the vaccine. It does NOT contain live virus so it is impossible to be infected from it. However, you may have an immune response - some do some don't - and that is to be expected particularly in sensitive people.

    This year in particular, there have been very few cases and almost no deaths attributable to flu all due to the social distancing and far better hygiene practices we are all meant to be obeying. However, viruses are all round us and we can pick them up anywhere at any time.

    And one more point, the flu vax does not protect against COVID-19. The value of having it this year was to lower the risk of getting both!
    Incognito
    11th Nov 2020
    4:02am
    Some people with compromised immune systems may not be able to have vaccines because it is over stimulation that their body cannot handle.
    Yes KSS you may not get the actual "flu" but you can still get "flu like" symptoms, seems to me the same thing as it triggers an immune response.
    Hoohoo
    21st Nov 2020
    6:02pm
    Sorry you got sick again, Teacher, especially since you had been strictly self-isolating and there wasn't much 'flu about anyway. I think shutting down international travel was the main reason for that (and less mutations of the strains), as well as social distancing and better hygiene practices, as KSS mentioned.

    I've found it quite insidious that people haven't been able to visit their loved aged folk, unless they get a 'flu jab first. I sing for the dying but I haven't been able to do so in Aged Care homes because I haven't had a 'flu jab. (I've never had one and have only had one 'flu and Swine 'flu my entire life). Why has COVID been conflated with the 'flu, if, as KSS states, "the flu vax does not protect against COVID-19"?

    What's the point of all the staff and the people in a retirement home having the 'flu jab, if it doesn't protect them from a visitor who hasn't had the jab? And the other thing is, there's no way anyone would go visit their elderly loved ones if they had so much as a slight sniffle.
    Incognito
    21st Nov 2020
    6:13pm
    Good point HooHoo, might have something to do with money for Big Pharma, me thinks.
    Hoohoo
    22nd Nov 2020
    3:03pm
    Yes I think it's very dangerous indeed, to hoodwink people this way and then to punish others who don't want to conform.

    I have a friend who's demented mother is in Aged Care but my friend isn't allowed to visit her in the Home (because she won't take the 'flu jab). She's allowed to take her on outside outings, but she has to pick her up in a taxi that can carry a wheelchair. The problem is, because of her dementia and medication, this old Mum often just wants to sit and snooze rather than go outside, which means my friend can't even see her most times.

    In times of clarity the old Mum despairs "Why isn't my daughter visiting me? I miss her so much!", but by the time she can get there with the wheelchair taxi, old Mum has slipped back into a dozed fog.

    My friend's in an awful dilemma because she doesn't want to end up with dementia, and taking 'flu jabs every year might actually contribute to that being her reality. I think if pharmaceutical companies create these drugs and government agencies make it mandatory for us to take them, there should be an onus on the drug company to research possible side effects from toxic substances such as aluminium added to their drugs, and make the results available for peer review (not by other drug company labs or from any labs who work with Big Pharma - perhaps the CSIRO?).
    Incognito
    22nd Nov 2020
    3:16pm
    Very sad about your friend. Big Pharma already know the side effects, they use cheap substitutes in vaccines so they can make more money, simple really, if there was no money in it we would not have them. Even drinking from aluminium cans is bad for your health but they still sell them. Money rules everything, we can only keep educating people to take their own health in their hands and do whats best for them, but unfortunately you are up against a powerful entity.v Also much of the real data is hidden so they can still get their vaccine and/or medicines onto the market. Doctors should be made to mandatory give out the advice of side effects with each prescription.

    What your friend can do is have the jab but then do a deep cleanse with lemon water (whole squeezed lemon in 2 cups of water, and follow up with 2 cups celery juice(must be on an empty stomach in the morning) it helps to get rid of heavy metals, also good to include eating only fruit in them morning and refrain from fats (including any proteins which are fat) for a couple of weeks. Anyone would benefit with this cleanse and nutrient fix.
    DISCLAIMER: Not to be taken as medical advice, my opinion only gathered from my own resources.
    Hoohoo
    26th Nov 2020
    4:53pm
    Thanks, Incognito. Wouldn't it be good if this kind of advice was handed out WITH the vaccine, instead of us having to learn by trial and error ourselves? There's so much contradictory information on the internet, or more succinctly,, anecdotal information that may be perfectly effective for some of us but ineffective, and maybe even directly harmful, for others. Again, the problem is finding scientific research that hasn't been tainted by the almighty dollar god.

    The crazy thing is that most medicines are exactly like that for natural alternatives - they may be perfectly effective for some of us but ineffective, and maybe even directly harmful, for others. I think if a medicine is 65% effective then it is usually approved. Too bad if you're in the other 35%, but look! We've got a different drug you can try if the first one we prescribed wasn't any use or made you sick or even caused your death, inadvertently! Yet when Big Pharma denigrates some natural methods because some people had bad reactions, they want them banned (as happened with the herb, comfrey), because of bad outcomes to the foetus during pregnancy and to infants while breastfeeding, those with liver disease and other drug interactions. This whole "peer reviewed" swindle is only valid within their own approval bubble. It wants us to believe that theirs is safe, pure science and scientific data, yet they apply different rules as soon as it's for a natural herb/drug.

    I wouldn't have this issue if Health Departments genuinely sought the best treatments (or preventions) for different conditions, designed to suit a range of individuals, and gave us all the information we needed to make sensible choices.

    I know many people just want to go to the doctor to make the symptom go away, get her to write the prescription and trust the Dr knows best. That's great for them because the thinking is done for them. Many doctors are incredibly caring and intuitive because they listen to their patients, but this gift was never measured in a med school exam. They are amazing healers, even when only armed with pharmaceutical drugs. Imagine how much more amazing they'd be armed with tested and proven pure herbal medicine as well?
    Hoohoo
    26th Nov 2020
    5:21pm
    Pardon the rave, what I meant to add was that my husband had a mouth full of amalgam fillings, from the time he was a child (yes, even his front teeth). He was never taught to clean his teeth properly or regularly until he had grown up.

    So in his late 50's he decided to have them all removed because he was having numerous health issues and his hair went from auburn to white in a short space of time. His dentist is a specialist in safe amalgam removal and waste disposal and he recommended a diet low in grains but fairly high in animal protein (but not tuna or salmon with high levels of mercury), which was hard because my husband had been a vegetarian for the previous 40 years, except he'd started eating fish (tuna sashimi) regularly in the last 5-10 years. Among other things, fresh coriander was recommended to help eliminate the mercury, but he had to do it slowly and gently so he didn't cop too much circulating in his system during the elimination process. He started eating organic eggs for protein. The dentist had him consult a herbalist to guide him through the months-long elimination process.

    Now he's in his late 60's, fit as a fiddle and much more resilient to minor ailments. He looks and feels a whole lot better (and the tinnitus is not so prominent). He surfs Lennox Point on one of his thrusters regularly (no old man long board for him!) and all the Pros say gidday and show him respect, because he's a brilliant surfer.
    Incognito
    26th Nov 2020
    10:40pm
    Interesting HooHoo, sounds like hubby cleaned out a lot of toxins, but watch that tuna. You might be interested to read a book by Anthony William called "Cleanse to Heal".
    I eat coriander every day in my big salad and also have celery juice every morning too. Unfortunately cannot afford to get my amalgam fillings removed.
    BillF2
    10th Nov 2020
    12:45am
    I think I would like to see the ideal world first. But then, you most likely would not need a vaccine.
    As for all those who avidly promote it and want to attach conditions to the vaccine (no jab, no pay, etc.), let them be the first to receive it. Then, if they are convinced it is 100% effective and safe, they can stand as financial guarantors for those who may suffer adverse reactions from it. I, somehow, don't think they would.
    Incognito
    11th Nov 2020
    4:04am
    I agree.
    Vinn
    13th Nov 2020
    7:54am
    I have read they put a patent on the word COVID 19, Why? because you cannot patent a naturally occuring virus only a disease/virus etc that has been manufactured in a lab.
    Vinn
    13th Nov 2020
    7:57am
    BillF2 I have also read that the vaccine manufactures have also got immunity from being sued for damages or adverse reactions the vaccines may cause. Which is also interesting to wonder why they did that before the vaccine is even out on the market?
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    5:34pm
    Yes Vinn I heard that too, and it is a known fact that patents were done way before anything happened. And yes the manufacturers do have immunity from being sued, how convenient.
    BillF2
    10th Nov 2020
    2:28am
    After World War 2 and the experiments by Dr. Mengele and the Japanese on human beings, medical procedures without informed consent were outlawed under international law. Mandated or coerced vaccination falls into this category, and anyone (like the Health Minister) who suggests that we could lose access to some welfare payments is committing a crime, and can be prosecuted under international law.
    TinTin
    10th Nov 2020
    4:17am
    I hope you're right BillF2, the thing is, the LNP are above the law.
    Winston Smith
    11th Nov 2020
    11:29am
    BillF2

    You're talking nonsense.
    Hoohoo
    21st Nov 2020
    6:15pm
    If it's true, why didn't those opposed to the no jab no childcare restrictions prosecute under international law? I suppose you'd need a lot of money to take on the Health Dept. and the govt., not to mention the spare time and energy to fight for years and years in court.

    It seems to be the way of these things - the richest person wins in court because they can outlast the complainant funding their lawyer. And justice? Bah! Don't be so naive. That's just a bedtime story for children.
    tiggr55
    10th Nov 2020
    2:31am
    just having a laugh not an anti vaxxer but if it was up to the Wiberals we would have all been jabbed with chloroquin lot of good that would have done us probably knocked a few extras off but Craig Kelly would have been happy after he championed(bought and wanted to make a killing ) this drug even though the medical experts said it was dangerous
    KSS
    10th Nov 2020
    6:55am
    Except that hydroxychloroquine is not a preventative for COVID-19 and never was even though it was originally touted as such. It was investigated as a potential treatment and even then not for every case. In the research that has been published since the beginning of the pandemic, it is still not advised for all people with COVID-19 and has been actively discouraged due to unintended side effects linked to heart failure. And this despite it being an otherwise safe drug used for malaria for decades.

    Your scathing comments towards Mr Kelly are unwarranted and unproven. How do you know he had bought up big on the drug to make a profit? All he did, along with others, was to advocate for an unproven treatment and was knocked back by the Chief Medical Officer Paul Kelly.

    Mr Palmer on the otherhand actually bought enough doses for every Australian to receive free should the drug be proven effective. It hasn't and Mr Palmer is left with his purchase.
    Hoohoo
    21st Nov 2020
    6:17pm
    Are you referring to Clive Palmer?
    Incognito
    21st Nov 2020
    6:19pm
    How do you know KSS that Clive Palmer bought up big and is stuck with it?
    TinTin
    10th Nov 2020
    4:14am
    I'm also in favour of politicians receiving the vaccine before I commit to it, BUT the problem is, I wouldn't trust the politicians, they could easily say they've had the vaccine when they haven't at all.
    Incognito
    11th Nov 2020
    4:05am
    Exactly, they lie to us all the time.
    Sophie
    13th Nov 2020
    11:28am
    .Really??? Please tell us these lies...proof is needed here.


    .
    Vinn
    13th Nov 2020
    12:06pm
    OH good grief. The hotel quarantine debarcle!!!!!!!!!!! Oh that's right they actually had no knowledge of who, what, when or why? Lets throw Jenny Mikakos under the bus. Now that is how the honest nice boys play.
    Winston Smith
    13th Nov 2020
    12:53pm
    Vinn

    Things went wrong in many places with the hotel quarantine.


    We could start with an idiot PM who allowed potentially infected people back into the country and chose to put them in the middle of our two biggest cities, rather than somewhere more removed from major population centres, or even offshore processing, with no guidance to the state governments he handed it over to at incredibly short notice. And the people in hotel quarantine who broke the rules. The sheer bad luck that meant the sex mad returning travellers in Melbourne were infected. (Was that the case in Sydney?) People who broke the rules in other places. Many others.

    The vast majority of the deaths were in Aged Care, a sector controlled by federal legislation, and where the federal Liberal government has encouraged massive casualisation of the workforce, meaning underqualified people work numbers of short shifts in multiple locations, a perfect formula for spreading the virus among the vulnerable.

    It’s worth noting that Scott has recognised (but not admitted to the fact) that putting returning travellers in the middle of our biggest cities was dumb, because he’s putting the latest lot in a place way outside Darwin.


    But rusted on, whingy, whiny Lib lovers choose to place all the blame on Dan. And make complete fools of themselves doing so.

    And Mikakos was well on the her way to the exit door long before the Inquiry. Never a success as Health Minister. Most doctors despised her.
    Vinn
    13th Nov 2020
    2:57pm
    yes and i agree our federal government is also to blame, I agree with your argument also about aged care system and the casualisation of the workforce but that does not excuse the lying by our state government about who, what, when and why with regards to who signed off on using the wrong group of people as security staff for the hotels.
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    5:38pm
    Dan Andrews is responsible for the hotel quarantine mess up because he refused ADF and went with mafia run private security, it is a known fact now what went done, nothing to do with anyone having sex with anyone, that is a lie. You need to get your facts right WS and not just listen to mainstream media.
    Yes Vinn on Current Affair last night there was another ex-aged care worker telling her story of lack of staff and there were only 3 staff to 40 residents at one stage, tragic what happened.
    Hoohoo
    21st Nov 2020
    6:31pm
    Both the VIC ALP and the NSW LNP stuffed up big time, with the hotel quarantine and the Ruby Princess. Both Premiers have owned up to mistakes being made. What's most important is what they've done since, with the compliance of the people of NSW and Vic, and that has been incredibly successful in stopping the spread of COVID.

    While both Premiers admitted mistakes, at least they were genuinely sorry, unlike Trump in the US, who willfully let it spread and told lies about masks causing more spreading. The mongrel hasn't even apologized for over 250,000 deaths and over 90,000,000 infections! He's still in denial. Now his oldest son has COVID.

    In regard to protecting people from COVID, Australian State pollies from both sides have been brilliant compared to US, UK, Europe, India and South America. Though it seems if Morrison and Frydenberg had their way, we'd be in the poo, too.
    Incognito
    21st Nov 2020
    7:07pm
    Numbers are being exaggerated in many countries and the testing is questionable. Maybe more, may be less, but still 98% of people recover from all of these cases.
    Hoohoo
    22nd Nov 2020
    3:24pm
    Whoops! Pardon me I DID get that figure wrong. I should have said 11,843,490 infections instead of over 90,000,000 COVID infections in the USA. The number of deaths is officially 253,600 people.

    Worldwide, over 58 million people have tested positive to COVID and 1,379,463 deaths.

    So far.

    Yes, the vast majority have recovered from COVID but we don't know whether their health has been impacted in other ways yet. Still, 1,379,463 is a lot of dead people and a whole lot more people grieving the loss of their loved ones.
    Incognito
    22nd Nov 2020
    3:38pm
    But would many of those people who have died been already sick and would have die anyway? From what I read many have chronic diseases and does not take much to stress the body out and have heart failure. I still question whether covid causes the death or whether they die "with" covid. USA has a huge percentage of people overweight and on medication for a start.
    Incognito
    22nd Nov 2020
    4:51pm
    Hoohoo I copied this from an article, thought you might be interested:

    August 26, 2020, the CDC had released data showing 94% of people who had died during the COVID-19 pandemic in the U.S. died “with” the virus, not “from” it. Only 6% had COVID-19 listed as the sole cause of death on the death certificate. Hence, the real death toll, those who unarguably died as a direct result of the infection, is only around 10,000.

    “For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death,” the CDC stated. This is an important distinction. Yet mainstream media continues to report that nearly 200,000 have died “from” COVID-19 in the U.S, thereby increasing national fear so they can implement their lockdowns and other strategies to limit our personal freedoms and liberty.
    Incognito
    22nd Nov 2020
    5:02pm
    And this:

    The media are also grossly misusing the term “case,” in reference to the COVID-19 case load. A case is a medical term for a patient with a symptomatic type of infection. It’s not someone who tests positive for antibodies or pieces of viral DNA. By referring to all positive tests as “cases,” they’re able to fan the flames of panic, making the situation sound far worse than it actually is.
    Many still do not understand that most of those who test positive for SARS-CoV-2 are asymptomatic. They think these are sick people in the hospital and that rising “case” numbers mean there will be a rise in deaths. Statistics reveal this simply isn’t true, and that there’s not a linear correlation between positive tests and deaths.
    Circum
    10th Nov 2020
    9:51am
    No,people should not be paid to take the vaccine.
    Lookfar
    10th Nov 2020
    10:11am
    why not circum?
    Suddha
    10th Nov 2020
    11:07am
    What a lot of rubbish. Be paid to receive a vaccine, when it is for your own benefit? Who is this bloke? Does he live in the real world? It should be free and those refusing to receive this vaccine should be warned that if they do unfortunately contact Coronavirus they will have to bear the cost of medical treatment, not the taxpayers.
    Lookfar
    10th Nov 2020
    11:18am
    Another Bully Suddha?
    Seeing the vaccinations can be passed if only 50% effective, they are experimental, - so of course people should be paid to be de facto test subjects, and as for compelling others to Your point of view, what makes you so special you think you can be judge and Jury?
    Winston Smith
    10th Nov 2020
    5:05pm
    Lookfar - From ABC News: "
    Drug company Pfizer announced overnight that its COVID-19 vaccine may be 90 per cent effective"
    Viking
    10th Nov 2020
    7:55pm
    Suddha. I totally agree. Once the vaccine is freely available, those who refuse it and get the virus should have to pay full medical costs.
    Incognito
    11th Nov 2020
    4:07am
    The 90% effective is on healthy people only.And there has been no peer reviewed paper yet.
    Hoohoo
    21st Nov 2020
    6:35pm
    And what about the 10% who take the vaccine but still get COVID - should they have to pay for their own health treatment? Suddha and Viking you sound like Nazis.
    Incognito
    21st Nov 2020
    7:05pm
    Exactly HooHoo, never has been a 100% effective vaccine, how convenient.
    Ha Ha Nazi's so true, they are going to hold us all down one by one and jab us. Don't worry poll says 90% of people want the vaccine HooHoo, so we will see what happens to them.
    Vinn
    21st Nov 2020
    7:11pm
    I have private health cover so I won't be relying on the public system anyway. I have been paying medicare for 38 years and my husband longer. Suppose if you can't access medical treatment why bother paying the medicare levy. Doctors take an oath to treat patients without bias if you start that crap of choosing not to treat someone because they don't have a vaccine you open a whole can of worms. Maybe they should stop treating a drug addict who OD's or someone that causes a car crash and injures themselves or someone that is on their mobile phone and walks in front of a car and gets injured or how about we don't treat someone that has attempted suicide and lives but needs medical attention. Totally unethical for a Dr to refuse treatment to someone based on whether they are vaccinated or not.
    Incognito
    21st Nov 2020
    7:18pm
    Ethical is not in Big Pharma's vocabulary. But money is.
    Vinn
    21st Nov 2020
    7:30pm
    Incognito they have never in all the years coronavirus's have been active have they been able to make a vaccine but all of a sudden with this COVID19 (a patented name of this coronavirus) they have got one and who's name and foundation pops up all the time, but none other then Bill Gates and his foundation.
    Lookfar
    21st Nov 2020
    7:32pm
    Regardless of which side of the political spectrum you're on, we all want safety and care for our loved ones. And the Royal Commission's recommendations ensure just that. Here are four things that the government could do tomorrow:

    Implement best-practice staffing ratios so our loved ones get the care they need.

    Increase physical and mental health services to people in aged care during times of crisis.

    Establish a national aged care plan and an advisory body to initiate protocols for future outbreaks.

    Implement trained infection control officers.

    These recommendations are clear, convincing and vital.
    Incognito
    21st Nov 2020
    7:36pm
    Yes Vinn well aware of Bill Gates and others agenda and connections. Bill Gates was building new vaccine factories in the very early days.The B&M foundation is just a way to hide money without paying tax.
    Yes Lookfar a lot could be done, they could start by feeding and keeping them clean properly too.
    Vinn
    21st Nov 2020
    8:56pm
    as they say 'follow the money trail' and 'money is the root of all evil'.
    Incognito
    21st Nov 2020
    11:21pm
    Exactly Vinn, if there was no money in vaccines, there would be no reason to do it, they are letting people die in Yemen and the world is not helping them, world's worst famine in decades they are saying, tragic.
    Viking
    10th Nov 2020
    2:16pm
    A lower cost and more effective way instead of a payment incentive might be; once the vaccine is freely available to charge all those who get the virus full private rates for treatment and hospitalisation. A potential medical bill of $30,000 might be a bigger incentive than say a $20 voucher. If people want to risk self infliction, let it be at their cost and not the community's.
    Lookfar
    23rd Nov 2020
    7:19am
    Viking the cost of the disease is getting the disease, it would be much more logical for the person who gave you the disease pay the $30,000 or whatever the real cost is for each person.
    Also a person being made ill because of where they work, eg supermarkets, transport staff, etc should be able to charge their employer, or in the case of public hospitals, the Government, and for all the other costs also.
    You need to think a bit before you start assigning blame, where will it lead? probably the opposite to what you intended.

    And just imagine if you charge the causer of your disease, how much success will contact tracing have?

    That was what happened in the US where they charged like wounded bulls ƒor the test, - no one got tested, too expensive, that was what really spread the disease.
    Judgemental meanness is rarely a sensible policy.
    Incognito
    11th Nov 2020
    4:09am
    So here we go again the vaccine debate. How about all those who want it go and have it and then we will see if it is safe, say after a few months of not being sick from anything.
    Winston Smith
    11th Nov 2020
    11:33am
    There has never been an unsafe vaccine in Australia.

    It's essential that all who can have a vaccine have it to protect those who would like to have it but cannot because of pre-existing health conditions. You not wanting it because of a fear based on wilful ignorance is NOT a pre-existing health condition.
    Foxy
    12th Nov 2020
    5:26pm
    ..... "there has never been an unsafe vaccine in Australia" - so that is 100% correct??
    Well - there is always a first time! lol

    Sick of hearing about people with "pre-existing health conditions"
    - why should healthy people put their lives at risk with a dodgy vaccine for them?

    Go get one yourself if you soooo concerned and stop pushing your "wilful ignorance' on total strangers on a Forum!
    Winston Smith
    12th Nov 2020
    6:54pm
    It won't be a dodgy vaccine.
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    1:26am
    It is already a dodgy vaccine WS, the virus has mutated at least 5 times already and by the time the vaccines arrive the virus could mutate again. There are real concerns about the safety because of it being rushed through and not thorougly tested.
    Winston Smith
    13th Nov 2020
    11:35am
    It is being rushed, perhaps, but there is also far more effort going into this vaccine than any before it. There is still no reason to believe that Australia's standards for approval have dropped.

    Your claims about mutation need concrete evidence, and detail as to how much it has mutated. A single mutation doesn't mean we need a different vaccine.

    There not REAL concerns. There is irrational fear whipped up by parts of the media and by you.
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    5:41pm
    Not at all WS, all viruses mutate, and more than once, in fact it can happen after it leaves one person and goes to the next. Do some study on it WS, easy to find our how viruses mutate. I am not fearful at all, you are the one who is fearful of a virus that 99.8% of people recover from.
    Vinn
    11th Nov 2020
    6:08pm
    I ask this question as I am curious and continously read that vaccines are all deemed 100% safe by pharmaceutical companies, World health organisation, governments and the general public yet parmaceutical companies cannot make any other medication on the market 100% safe, for example penicillin or even my anti cancer medication I am on ( I am now on my 2nd type due to side affects from the first one prescribed), my fathers heart medication had side effects and nearly killed him (just a couple of examples and I am sure if people read the inserts of their medication they will read it has possible side affects).
    Incognito
    11th Nov 2020
    6:13pm
    A doctor who prescribes medicine should be telling you the side effects not just handing the leaflet, it needs to be pointed out IMO. You can always look it up online too. Every vaccine also has the same information but is never made available easily, you have to look for it.
    Nothing is 100% safe that is made by pharmaceutical companies, you have to weigh up the risks, personally I avoid them.
    Vinn
    11th Nov 2020
    6:30pm
    Dear Incognito I understand the leaflet and the info on line but I keep hearing from everyone in the media and in online arguments that vaccines are 100% safe which makes me wonder how is this possible when no other medication that I know of doesn't have potential side affects. I note you say that no medication pharmaceutical companies make are 100% safe but yet it is being repeated over and over that vaccines are safe and anyone that disagrees is just considered an antivaxxer without any knowledge of how safe a vaccine is.
    Incognito
    11th Nov 2020
    6:44pm
    Yes it is confusing Vinn, but the reality is that we are often told lies to feed a big corporation that makes trillions every year on "medicines", once you start looking at the scale of the addiction to popping pills it is scary. Americans are the worst for it, so many overweight, eat junk and pop pills, no wonder they go down hard when hit with a virus or anything else.
    Oh and if you use google you will never see the truth, only what big pharma wants you to read. A lot of so called "fake news" is being blocked. There is a lot of information to be found that shows the "other side" but not easy to find, takes time to find it.
    I spent years trying to better my health so have done a lot of research when doctors could not help me, and I got better.
    Sophie
    12th Nov 2020
    10:22am
    "A lot of so called "fake news" is being blocked. There is a lot of information to be found that shows the "other side" but not easy to find, takes time to find it."


    You mean like the "fake news" from "dr" Mercola the quack???

    .
    Sophie
    12th Nov 2020
    10:34am
    .
    Obviously this ethicist has his head in the clouds. Does he even know what "pandemic" means??
    No one except those who are medically unfit to have a Covid 19 vaccine should be exempted from having a vaccine.

    The thought of paying people to have a vaccine during a pandemic would be laughable if the situation was not so dangerous.

    People who refuse to have a vaccine should not be given free hospital care...no benefits...blocked from returning to work and any other means until they comply.

    As for the non-argument that no vaccine is 100% safe. Well, hahahaha, nothing in life is 100% safe. Even ordinary foods like eating peanuts can kill some people!!!

    .
    Vinn
    12th Nov 2020
    3:19pm
    Interesting reply. Condemning someone that refuses a vaccine. Let me ask you this; would you also refuse a drug addict medical treatment because they OD'd or would you refuse a person who was hooning medical treatment if they crashed their car because they put themselves in danger or would you refuse a smoker cancer treatment as they smoked and that caused their lung cancer or would you refuse someone treatment that knowingly jumped into unsafe waters and hurt themselves?
    Lookfar
    12th Nov 2020
    3:47pm
    Sophie, good questions for you to answer from Vinn, - particularly as you are coming from an extreme right wing nazi point of view so it seems, - kill the Gypsies Jews, sick, lame, different, etc. (Did you even know you are coming from that inhumane point of view?)

    Do you really want a society full of judgemental punishment and the inevitable deaths therefrom, and the total militarism of our country to be able to enforce that brutal bullshit?

    Perhaps think a bit before knee jerk conclusions.

    Please.
    Vinn
    12th Nov 2020
    4:10pm
    Never in my life has a medication such as these vaccines caused so much debate and division amongst friends, family, work collegues and even strangers that only know each other via social media or media commenting channels. It is scary how the 'vaccine' debate so to speak is turning people into 'Judge, Jury and executioner'. I'm right, no I'm right your a pro-vaxxer and your a anti-vaxxer. Would we behave this way over any other medication on the market?
    Foxy
    12th Nov 2020
    6:10pm
    ...... thought "Sophie" might be on some kind of meds. given the replies on here? lololol
    Sophie
    12th Nov 2020
    6:52pm
    .Lookfar and Vinn....

    I repeat my previous post...

    Obviously this ethicist has his head in the clouds. Does he even know what "pandemic" means??
    No one except those who are medically unfit to have a Covid 19 vaccine should be exempted from having a vaccine.

    The thought of paying people to have a vaccine during a pandemic would be laughable if the situation was not so dangerous.

    People who refuse to have a vaccine should not be given free hospital care...no benefits...blocked from returning to work and any other means until they comply.

    As for the non-argument that no vaccine is 100% safe. Well, hahahaha, nothing in life is 100% safe. Even ordinary foods like eating peanuts can kill some people!!!

    Now I shall add a little bit more to offset the complete ignorance of LOOKFAR. I am married to a Jewish man who lost many relatives at the hands of the Nazis. So before you open your large mouth and put your big foot in it...THINK!!!

    .
    Lookfar
    12th Nov 2020
    7:12pm
    Sophie, I can't know your life, but I can easily recognise an attitude, - ie 'punish those who do not do what the state demands'.

    That you are married to a Jewish man does not guarantee that you think, how you express your humanity NOW shows us what you lack in the thinking department.

    Perhaps time to talk to your husband.
    Sophie
    12th Nov 2020
    7:24pm
    .

    My husband is a lawyer and agrees 100% .... our son is a virologist in the US and agrees 100%.

    Perhaps it is time for you and your ilk to stop spouting nonsense.

    .
    Sophie
    12th Nov 2020
    7:34pm
    I repeat...vaccines save lives...the Covid-19 vaccine should be mandatory.
    Winston Smith
    12th Nov 2020
    7:39pm
    Thank you Sophie for your voice of sanity here.

    I wish YLC would follow the lead of Twitter and Facebook and remove posts from these nutters that contain lies, and are likely to mislead others.
    Viking
    12th Nov 2020
    7:56pm
    Surely the issue is simply whether people should be paid to receive the Covid jab? When have we ever paid people before to receive a vaccine? How much is enough to encourage the most reluctant to accept? Does this become a Dutch auction where over time for various social benefits the payment is ratcheted up? Do we then expect payment for obeying the traffic rules to bring the road carnage down? More people die on the road each year than have died from Covid. Vinn surely the whole point of YLC is for people to express their opinion?

    Lookfar, I don't know if you have ever been to Auschwitz, Birkenau, Majendek or Dachau (I have I lived in the region for years) but if you had I very much doubt that you would be equating Sophie's views with any connection to Naziism or the killing of any minority group whatsoever. I really don't see any of your extremism in her post.
    Sophie
    12th Nov 2020
    8:11pm
    .

    Winston Smith...if only I had a magic wand, I would do it myself!!
    Sophie
    12th Nov 2020
    8:13pm
    .

    Viking...thank you for a much appreciated comment!
    Vinn
    12th Nov 2020
    8:47pm
    I agree Viking on YLC we should be able to express our opinions but from reading some of the posts just posted recently it appears there are some that do not want people expressing their opinion if it doesn't go along with the pro vaccine narative. They express their desire to gag those with differing opinions. Part of my expression of the debate is I am seeing people getting so nasty and turning on each other in droves over a vaccine.

    My original post has not been answered and either has my question about refusing other people that self inflict injuries or illnesses upon themselves being allowed medical treatment either. Don't Dr's take the Hippocratic Oath with regards to treating patients?
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    1:33am
    Who cares what your husband is and your son Sophie that does not make you a better person or give you the right to attack others when they don't agree with you, we are all entitled to our own opinions. Do you and WS have shares in big pharma is that why you want them to be mandatory for a so called "deadly" virus that 99.9% of people recover from?
    Sophie
    13th Nov 2020
    10:44am
    .

    Obviously YOU do since you took the time to answer a comment made by Lookfar about my husband.

    Yes I am certainly a much better person for knowing the legal issues surrounding the vaccine, thanks to my husband and the benefits of the vaccine, thanks to my son.

    When opinions seek to compromise the health of a nation, they MUST be challenged and very strongly.... especially from someone like you . As I said before many times, you bring nothing scientific to the table and therefore have NO right to an opinion. You are NOT having morning tea with the women down the street, who like you, suffer from a great paucity of knowledge.

    Your comment is typical of a completely ignorant person ..however... in your ignorance you may want to consider if the "big pharmas" fail in their endeavours....they ALSO FAIL in being able to make and manufacture any other medicines in the future.

    Again... the Covid-19 vaccine ( as with all vaccines) save lives and should be mandatory. So roll up your sleeve because I feel it will eventually be.

    .
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    5:53pm
    Happy Kindness Day to you to Sophie!

    You are unbelievable never cease to amaze me how you love to hate people with differing opinions.

    The vaccine will not save anyone, there is no indication that it will prevent anyone from getting covid, the least they expect is that you might have less severe symptoms. Go ahead and have the toxins injected into your body, all that mercury going to your brain will help you no doubt.

    How can I compromise the health of the nation if I have not got it or ever had it or ever been in contact with anyone who has had it, I do not even get a cold or flu, have not done for so many years I cannot remember when the last time was.

    And to assume I don't have much knowledge (yes you have to use an uncommon word to look smarter) is just appalling, you do not know me personally and never will thank God.

    You are more ignorant than me, because you cannot look out of your little box that you are in. So stop assuming and stop telling me what I should or should not comment on, I notice you only go after me and many others who think the same you ignore, so just ignore me too, as I have asked many times before.
    Winston Smith
    14th Nov 2020
    10:25am
    Incognito - The sentence "The vaccine will not save anyone, there is no indication that it will prevent anyone from getting covid" is just plain wrong.
    Incognito
    14th Nov 2020
    3:14pm
    That is funny WS, that is what I heard on the TV from one of those vaccine experts. Just stating what I heard.
    Hoohoo
    22nd Nov 2020
    3:34pm
    Wow Sophie! Forced vaccination? Really? May I refer you to one Dr Josef Mengele who made a name for himself at Auschwitz.

    Thank God it's illegal to force an adult to take a medication without their consent. Some people posting here seem to prefer Nazi Germany rules to Australia's liberal democracy. Just listen to yourselves!
    Incognito
    22nd Nov 2020
    3:40pm
    Sophie most likely has money invested in Big Pharma lol
    Vinn
    22nd Nov 2020
    3:44pm
    Hoohoo I think there are some who play 'Judge, Jury and executioner' on here that have forgotten the Nuremburg Code exists for a reason and actually still applies in the year 2020.
    Lookfar
    12th Nov 2020
    8:18pm
    The family that oppresses together stays together?

    Learn't nothing from all that suffering?
    Sophie
    12th Nov 2020
    9:48pm
    .

    Jewish people have learnt a lot Lookfar. The most important thing they have learnt is the VALUE OF LIFE.
    Life matters at all costs and if it means insisting that an entire community be vaccinated against the ravages of a pandemic... believe me, they will be on the same page.

    Point in fact: many of the world's leading virologists and scientists are Jewish.


    '
    .
    Sophie
    12th Nov 2020
    9:58pm
    .

    Vinn... those scenarios you speak of concern individuals. They are not rampant viruses that cause a pandemic which pose a threat to an entire nation.

    There is no comparison... also, although our opinions do matter, they do NOT stand up to scientific fact.

    .
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    1:40am
    It is not even a pandemic, I have never met anyone who has been effectd by covid, and there are many areas in the world that have not been effected. Not like people are dropping like flies, a huge exaggeration calling it a pandemic, it is more of scamdemic.
    Vinn
    13th Nov 2020
    7:36am
    Not necessarily Sophie, Car accidents kill more then just the person driving (innocent bystanders as well) and cancer well we all know cancer has been killing hundreds of thousands of people all around the world every year and we have been throwing billions of dollars at both of these killers who know how long.

    Also funny you mention race and profession as I also have a very good friend who's father is a virologist, her husband a doctor and guess what nationality they are? Now even my friends father says coronavirus's have been around for years and years and they have not been able to come up with a vaccine for any corona virus and the strange thing about this one COVID19 is that it is not behaving like a normal coronavirus it has been altered to do the damage it is doing to humans. This virus came from a lab and it was altered to make it a super virus. Now we have to ask the question WHY and WHO did this?????? and less then 12 months later, magically we are seeing VACCINES being trialled to save us all from the Virus? Sorry but something just does not add up to me and I don't think anyone needs a degree, a PHD or any education to see something just doesn't add up about all of this.
    Vinn
    13th Nov 2020
    7:45am
    Also shouldn't I have got it by now as i have a compromised immune system and have worked as an essential worker all year now. I have been tested, came back negative. ??? maybe it is my ability to take control of my own health and build my immune system to fight whatever comes my way. None of my work collugues have had it either and they work more hours then me. We have had a cluster where I work and was considered a hot spot for a while but yet none of us had it. There is hardly any no social distancing from customers, not all wear a mask and some of the unhygenic things I have seen customers do would scare the pants of you and make you want to take the test in a heart beat. But still nearly 9 months later not a single case and we have around 200 staff working where I work all exposed everyday.

    I do believe we have a coronavirus out there, I don't deny that but it is not like any other for some reason??
    Winston Smith
    13th Nov 2020
    11:32am
    Vinn - I'd call your experience good luck.
    Sophie
    13th Nov 2020
    11:36am
    .
    ,,,and as we all know Vinn, sometimes our luck runs out.

    Just be grateful you have been lucky so far and be thankful a life saving vaccine is on the way should you succumb to Covid.


    .
    Vinn
    13th Nov 2020
    12:21pm
    Good Grief, hallelujah thank Yahweh (gods true name) for that, the messiah (Vaccine) will deliver me from this ravaging pandamic. Thank you so much. Can it also get rid of my grey hairs, the pain in my joints and the wrinkles on my face?
    Sophie
    13th Nov 2020
    12:55pm
    '

    YHWH can take care of anything.

    Can even re-connect gaps in neural synapses!!

    .
    Vinn
    13th Nov 2020
    2:49pm
    and mark my word he will!
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    6:04pm
    You are spot on Vinn, just ignore the big pharma fanatics who may even possibly have shares in big pharma.
    I think too the best way to protect yourself is to look after your own health. Nothing to do with luck at all.
    The world's population has never been sicker, and modern medicine may have saved a few but more are dying a lot more of a slower death by suffering for years and years taking multiple pills to stay alive and big pharma loves that.
    You wonder why China did not want an inquiry into the origins of the virus, because they are making trillions of dollars from this so called scamdemic, along with all those who are invested in the spin offs.
    Big tech is also making trillions and plan to make a lot more too.
    Bill Gates, DR Fauci, and many others are all in on it too.
    If it was a real pandemic we would be seeing deaths in every neighborhood. It is not a pandemic, it was named that to put the fear in people and it has worked.
    Time we knew the real truth and it will come out eventually. Wake up world!
    Vinn
    13th Nov 2020
    6:29pm
    why can't you accept that it is down to the fact that I have put stategies in place to build up my immune system to the point that if I do get sick from COVID my body will be better prepared to fight it and not good luck. I rarely get the flu, cold or a sore throat and if I do it is because I am run down and stressed. When I feel the slighted incling of a cold/flu/sore throat coming on I up the doses of vitamins etc to help fight any viruses or infections. Last time I started to get a sore throat, I started straight away with the mouth gargle, up'd the vitamin intake etc, sore throat gone next morning, no need for anti biotics or anything else.

    Lets get people out there thinking about taking responsibility for their own health instead of relying on magical pills and vaccines to save us. Eat healthy, stop smoking, taking drugs, drinking alcohol, eating junk food etc. Lets put ourselves in the best position to fight this virus now instead of locking us away (I agree we should protect the vunerable but lets do it in a sensible way, building their immune systems and putting proper nutrition in their bodies) for example have you seen the stoge they feed the elderly in nursing homes, I would not feed that crap to my cat. Also get off your backsides and get outside, exercise and stop using so many chemical products on and in your body and around your home.
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    7:18pm
    100% agree with your last comment Vinn. I do the same. I grew up with healthy organic veggies and still do the same, there is no cancer in my family, rarely if at all colds and flu's. We were not allowed packaged foods in our house and I am so grateful to have been brought up this way and carried on the same.
    I also use natural products, we have too avoid what chemicals we can because there is enough in the air we breath.
    My mum recently went to hospital for a minor ailment which they put her on the antibiotic drip for, it works straight away because she rarely takes them. I took her a bag of organic fruit and an organic salad, she was out within 3 days. She is 84 and never gets a cold or flu either, and refuses the flu vax every time her doctor asks.
    Vinn
    13th Nov 2020
    7:32pm
    I am so glad someone understands where I am coming from (Incognito) I wish my mum had bought me up that way. COVID lockdowns threw my healthy living out of wack but I am now getting back on track, gyms are open so back to doing weights and getting off the junk again and unhealthy eating. It won't take me long to get back on track (we all fall off the rails at times, but it is these set backs that wake us up) I went back to gym this week and I am pissed off that I have gone backwards (but hopefully muscle memory will kick in).
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    7:58pm
    Me too am glad we are on the same page. I never eat junk, and never fall off my healthy diet because I enjoy it so much. Muscle building is a lot harder once you stop to get back on track, but I still go for walks and bike rides, and do a little yoga and stretches. Don't do gyms.
    Hope you can join one of the meeting topics sometime :)
    Winston Smith
    13th Nov 2020
    10:08pm
    Incognito

    You talking utter nonsense when you talk about avoiding chemicals. All your food is made of chemicals. YOU are made of chemicals.

    Pseudoscientific quackery
    Incognito
    13th Nov 2020
    10:26pm
    WS haven't you had enough of going after my comments? I am talking about artificial toxic chemcials that have proven to be carcengenic like Glysophate.
    What do you think has increased all those cancer cases you talk about?
    Look at history only increased dramatically after WW2 and has not stopped.
    Sophie
    13th Nov 2020
    11:53pm
    .

    Human beings and other animals have had cancer throughout recorded history. Some of the earliest evidence of cancer is found among fossilized bone tumors, human mummies in ancient Egypt, and ancient manuscripts.

    Early man used charcoal to cook…Smoking is a well-known source of food contaminated caused by carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Epidemiological studies indicates a statistical correlation between the increased occurrence of cancer of the intestinal tract and the frequent intake of smoked foods.

    Cancer did NOT increase with WW2...it was prevalent long before then. Please curtail the ignorance and stick to the facts!!!!


    .
    Incognito
    14th Nov 2020
    12:36am
    There you go again, what to be the clever one don't you Sophie? Of course cancer has been found before but if you think it is not increasing then prove it!!!!!!!!!!
    Winston Smith
    14th Nov 2020
    9:11am
    Incognito - You said "chemicals", not "artificial toxic chemcials". And glyphosate has NOT been proven to be carcinogenic when used according to directions. And before you mention them, court case in the most litigious state of the world's most litigious country do not prove science.

    As for "dramatically" increased rates of cancer, everyone dies of something. As we reduce death rates from other causes, e.g. heart disease, TB, polio, whooping cough, etc., the rates for other causes that we haven't yet beaten MUST go up.
    Lookfar
    14th Nov 2020
    9:44am
    Sophie, you do need to provide facts for your argument, otherwise it is defunct.
    Yes, Human beings have always had a very small amount of cancer as it derives from exploring changes in the genetic make-up, - almost always very minor and only important when folk are very old and have not died from all the young person diseases, - eg childbirth, heart attacks, slain in battle, starvation, etc.

    However, in this time, cancer is striking at any age, and causation is being linked with the poor nutritional components of the food itself.
    It is now well known that the nutrition we derive from our food is directly related to the health of our Soil, ie the Biology of our soil, the which is extremely damaged or destroyed by modern artificial fertilisers and pesticides, etc.

    This is extremely important for nutrition, as the normal plant roots are not fine enough to get into the grains of the soil, - where many important minerals are available only to the fine mycelium of eg, the Mychorrizal Fungi.
    As an example, the mineral Boron, essential for the Hypothalamus to balance the calcium in our blood, and the lack of which, - 80% of Australians have insufficient Borax in their diet, - causes Arthritus, - particularly Rheumatoid arthritis, where the blood deposits too much calcium in the bones, joints etc, or Osteoarthritis, where it removes the calcium, from the bones (and the teeth), - and either of these is a major health calamity, - caused by the use of artificial fertilisers etc.

    So your mates in Big Pharma have a lot to answer for, whether they be jewish or whatever belief system, and follow the Materialistic religion as well, which most do.

    Your defence of your family, etc. whilst understandable, does not address what is happening in the wide, wide world right now, - so YOU are the one who needs to prove your statements/assertions.

    I look forward to you so doing.
    Lookfar
    Winston Smith
    14th Nov 2020
    10:22am
    I have seen no evidence that Sophie has mates in Big Pharma. Like me, she does seem to have faith in modern medical science. The real stuff. Your post there sadly seems full of the quackery one sees in pseudoscience websites.
    Sophie
    14th Nov 2020
    11:29am
    .
    You know something Lookfar…after reading your post I consider it below my dignity and intelligence to have a conversation with someone whose lack of knowledge, outlandish views and blatant disregard for scientific fact are so pronounced..

    I do not suffer fools easily…if you think Borax (Boron) is essential for your well-being…go ahead, have a large cup and a good lie down…cheers!!!



    .
    Sophie
    14th Nov 2020
    11:32am
    .
    Winston Smith…I learnt early in life It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's darn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person.

    I’m so glad there are people like you who have great respect for scientific fact.


    .
    Sophie
    14th Nov 2020
    11:38am
    .
    The #1 use for borax is in household cleaning. Use borax as an ant killer (or for general pest control),
    Other uses for borax include enamel glazes, as a ceramics component, coating for dry-cured meats, and even as an emulsifier or preservative in cosmetic products like moisturisers, scrubs, and shampoos. Borax is also used to make homemade ‘slime’, which is safe for your kids to play with. Some people even use borax for arthritis healing and recovery!

    Although it is a naturally-occurring substance, borax IS NOT 100% safe. If you are accidentally exposed to it, it can cause skin irritation, respiratory issues, and eye problems. It’s especially harmful/poisonous if it’s ingested or inhaled and can harm an unborn child.

    Borax is banned in the UK and several EU and Asian countries, due to it being a ‘potentially harmful’ substance, but it is legal to sell in Australia.

    However, it is only legal to sell borax in the form of household cleaners or pesticides..


    .
    Incognito
    14th Nov 2020
    3:20pm
    Good comments Lookfar, and they are scientific facts, ignorant people like Sophie and WS only want to believe in the "medical sickness industry", no hope for them, you cannot argue or convince them to look out of their boxes, their boxes are locked up with a key and you can never get them out of it, too stuck in their ways to consider they have been duped all these years.
    I am done on this topic, have a great life everyone, stay healthy.
    Winston Smith
    14th Nov 2020
    5:31pm
    Please go and find out what real science is.
    Lookfar
    14th Nov 2020
    3:40pm
    Sophie, Borax is also part of some vitamin tablets, and it is used in natural insulation such as shredded paper as a fire suppresant.
    It is also sold in large bags at Agricultural suppliers as if your plants are deficient in Borax, they exhibit a number of symtoms, such as yellow leaves, - in my experience it also causes a hollow centre with Bok Choy.
    Normally it is applied by spray to the leaf, as being water soluble it will be removed by the rain.
    However I add mine to my Biochar mix as then it is held by the charcoal and the living mcrobes within so you don't have to keep on spraying it on every crop.
    The average amount required by a human is 5 mg per day, so best if you don't take your own advice of drinking a cupful, - even water will kill you if you drink enough of it.
    Chemically it is a salt, and has an LD (lethal dose) of 50, - same as table salt.
    I live in the wet tropics, so most of the diseases are fungal, - Borax is excellent for tinea, and also for Dandruff, although needs to be applied every cuppla days, and made stronger by dissolving it in warm water.
    It is also a good under arm etc deodorant, general purpose antiseptic and effective steriliser for Covid-19, - again using a stronger solution. - normal solution is all dissolved at room temperature but you can increase the dose up to five times in hotter water.
    In america it was used for babies like talcum powder, as being alkaline it neutralised the pee.
    Unfortunately, slack mothers would apply more borax rather than be bothered changing the nappy so it became a toxic cocktail and irritated the babies delicate skin.
    Some people find it effective for acne, and it is good for many insect stings that are acidic.
    It is also cheap as chips.
    With regard to Rheumatoid arthritis, the which i had a 'quite severe' case of, it actually causes the blood to be balanced and so it to remove the spurs, slabs, etc. of calcium.
    I had been booked in for a hip replacement but when I started leaping up and down in the surgery, (Had been almost unable to walk 2 years previously) he agreed no I didn't need an operation, and the knee, which was covered with these 'spurs etc, now looks in the X-ray like a normal knee, - all sign of damage gone, - the doctors all amazed - particularly down at Cairns base hospital, where the operation was to have happened. - As there were signs of the arthritis in my other leg and knee and a bit on the arm joints, I was looking at a very dismal and miserable old age, but now I can actually run, and my hip is still improving.

    Of course the major supermarkets, Coles and Woolies, don't even carry it, - it would replace about a third of all those expensive products in their 'medical' aisle, and big pharma would find that very threatening at $5. for 500 grams.
    Lookfar
    14th Nov 2020
    8:18pm
    Thanks Incognito, it is indeed very difficult for many people to distinguish their own opinions from the Scientific Method, the which they often feel they have inherited by being part of the modern world, a sad mistake, as it is an analytical method, not a range of irrelevant opinions, and indeed does not support the Materialistic world view, not even a little bit.

    What to do? - jesus talked about casting pearls before swine, - jesus my brother please cry on my shoulder, - and we can cry together.
    Vinn
    14th Nov 2020
    8:42pm
    I was reading about the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse yesterday (not a religious person myself but I do belief in the bible).
    Lookfar
    14th Nov 2020
    8:53pm
    Good stuff, Vinn, and what have you decided to do?
    It may help me :)

    Cheers.
    Vinn
    15th Nov 2020
    2:45pm
    Sorry, are you talking about my last comment about the horsemen? or earlier comments?
    Lookfar
    15th Nov 2020
    2:55pm
    The horsemen.
    Sorry, was very hot here yesterday, I was a bit abstracted.
    Vinn
    15th Nov 2020
    3:13pm
    I grew up in a very strict religion that's teaching are based on the end coming 'Armaggeadon' revelation. God destroying those that do not follow Jesus but follow Satan. I may not believe in religion but I do believe in the bible and what is happening around the world actually looks like what is predicted in the bible. I remember it says in the bible 'he will come like a thief in the nite'. Sort of off the vaccine topic but connected if you have ever read the bible (well the version I grew up on)
    Lookfar
    16th Nov 2020
    6:07pm
    Vinn, you inspired me to give a more sweeping reply, - I hope you are OK with that?
    It helps to have different perspectives of eg the Soul, from the point of view of the physical world we have spirit soul and body, - giving rise to the revolutionary cry, Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, from the French revolution, or as we can also say Thinking, Feeling, and Willing, which in the physical context gives Thinking/spiritual, - education, culture, individual freedom, research, care for the future, spiritual development. then Feeling, the base of all laws in the past, the concept of democracy, - right and wrong, Rights and duties, the most important thing in our daily lives, - Relationships, whether with partner, family, other friends or god, and although feelings are stronger than thinking, because thinking is always 'about' there is a possibility of looking at Objective feelings, - how many people you have met hate a glorious sunset? - if you like religious music, can you not feel a quality that also can be found in almost all religious music that uplifts, 'the soul', - indeed in much paintings, architecture, - many expressions of humans seeking for beauty, is there not that lift of the heart? that takes you above your self? and also can one consider that logical argument is an objective feeling? - computers can not differentiate! - and Willing, the basis of our daily life, - doing, also the basis of our economy, and the interesting phenomena of our feeling persons, - our politicians, etc, controlling our doing to make money, using the Rights we have in the feeling sphere to force and control our fellow man in the economic sphere through Ownership of capital, although that is not implied in doing and working together in daily life.
    Then we look at it from the Etheric, (life body) perspective, - four fold not three fold, we have the Physical body, - the which we share with the Rocks, the mineral kingdom, then our Life body, that we share with the plant kingdom, then the feeling body, - the Astral body that we share with the Animal kingdom, then finally the I, where each one of us is alone in our body containing the other three, but seeing everything from within those other three, not part of those other three but an individual Attention, that we sweep unintentially over everything that we experience, but then couple those experiences with quite specific concepts, and how we do it we don't easily grasp because we use a new tool, intuition, - the which seems to be above the conceptual basis of thinking, that I would like to go beyond, - particularly when we realise that intuition, not the sliding file boxes of materialism, is how we remember.
    It is interesting that Steiner maintains that Christ is come again but into the etheric, not the physical, - perhaps alluded to in Thessallonians in the bible, "he comes as a thief in the night" ie you can't see him, - apparently in the 1930's, and that 'I' alluded to earlier seems to have a very strong deep relationship to the christ being as each of us can contact that if circumstances allow, so that is the basis of overcoming the loneliness of the I, by finding the love in our own soul of the christ being the which we all share, but has to be coupled with Freedom as that is the possibility the loneliness can lead to, for each human being.
    Unfortunatey modern 'christianity does not support that individual journey of discovering love and freedom because it is overwhelmed by the Old Testament despite Christs' adjuring to the contrary.
    We have all the tools for our development in our hands but the spirits of the past drag us down, - we should not let them so do, - their time is gone, and things are getting tricky.
    Vinn
    16th Nov 2020
    7:47pm
    very interesting thank you for that. I was thinking today and I think I might know what the mark of the beast is in physical terms? I am guessing you know about the fork in the road, the road the majority take and road very few take?
    Vinn
    21st Nov 2020
    7:19pm
    Trolls are everywhere these days.
    Incognito
    21st Nov 2020
    7:29pm
    Yep we got some nasty ones on YLC's.
    Vinn
    21st Nov 2020
    7:37pm
    as I have discovered and seen on here. Wonder if this is the only site they troll on or do they do others and do they get paid to troll?
    Incognito
    21st Nov 2020
    7:42pm
    Can't answer that but it would not surprise me. I have never met a troll in person, well I don't think so anyway lol
    Vinn
    21st Nov 2020
    9:09pm
    trolls only communicate from behind the safety of their computer screen and the keyboard is their chosen tool. Some trolls even get paid to be trolls a bit like those pick line breakers that are paid to stir up trouble at picket lines and at demonstrations and rallies. The COVID19 and COVID 19 vaccine debate will bring out the trolls like ants to honey. Sad really as all this COVID stuff is doing is 'Dividing and conquering' us all. Reminds me of a scene from Gladiator when Commodus was talking to Lucilla about the busy little bees.
    Lookfar
    22nd Nov 2020
    8:40am
    I agree, Trolls would have to be paid, I imagine they would get more money fom posting as often as possible and on as many subjects as possible, they would have some sort of contract, and some sort of guide, depending on who is paying them.
    They would have I guess pat subjects that well known propaganda is rife about and be abusive.
    No I haven't met one but I am quite sure I have been replying to several.
    I think YLC may remove the most obvious worse ones when they are sure, - I certainly would if I was running a discussion site, some sites that don't are very unpleasant to visit.
    Incognito
    22nd Nov 2020
    1:13pm
    You need to hit the report button if it gets too nasty Lookfar.
    Incognito
    22nd Nov 2020
    1:14pm
    Why don't they wait until the peer review comes out? Still no data has been releases, only media announcements.


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