GST talks back on the table?

Federal Treasurer Joe Hockey has put an increase in GST back on the agenda.

GST talks back on the table?

The Goods and Services Tax (GST) was the talk of the town yesterday, as Federal Treasurer Joe Hockey again raised the notion of increasing the GST then, when faced with opposition to the proposal, all but ruled out the idea later the same day.

Speaking at the Pricewaterhouse Coopers (PwC) Tax Reform Forum in Melbourne, the Treasurer asked state and territory government leaders to rethink the possibility of increasing the GST in order to raise the necessary revenue to fund public hospitals and schools.

Mr Hockey did concede that GST isn’t a cure-all for the nation’s budget woes, and acknowledged that a GST increase may negatively affect poorer households and that they would need to be compensated.

“The silver bullet in tax reform is not increasing or broadening the GST, it’s about having a considered approach to the entire tax base,” he said. “If you were to increase the GST and the benefit went to the states, the commonwealth would have to find the money to compensate people.”

Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews said the state would “not support fundamental changes to the GST”. The Federal Opposition also said it will not support an increase, claiming that the Government is pressuring the states to not only increase the rate of GST, but also to broaden the scope of the tax to include fresh food, health and education services.

However, the Opposition has said it may back a new property levy proposed by the Grattan Institute as a way for state governments to increase their revenue. This levy would mean an annual fee of $772 on a median-priced Sydney home, and $560 on the median-priced Melbourne home, with lower average rates in other cities and the regions.

Grattan Chief Executive John Daley said that people with low incomes and little wealth would be exempt from the levy, and low-income retirees with high-value houses would not need to pay it until their house was sold.

State and territory leaders, along with Prime Minister Tony Abbott, will meet at the Council of Australian Governments (COAG) leaders’ retreat in Sydney next week. Mr Hockey has called on them to use the opportunity to engage in a “sensible, mature debate about long-term tax reform”.

Read more at The Guardian

Read more at The Australian Financial Review

Read more at The Australian

Read more at The Sydney Morning Herald

Opinion: Opposition by name and nature

Instead of flatly rejecting the idea of increasing the rate of GST, wouldn’t it be more responsible for the states to at least hear Mr Hockey out? I agree with the Treasurer that it shouldn’t be too much to ask for state leaders to sit down and have a sensible discussion about long-term tax reform. In the real world, discussion often leads to the sharing of ideas and, dare I say, a resolution.

But this is politics.

Mr Hockey’s turnaround may have set a new record for dropping a policy change, with his proposal of increasing the GST announced at lunchtime and then all but ruled out by afternoon tea.

In all fairness to the Treasurer, his disappointment with the attitude of state leaders with regards to at least considering his proposal is somewhat warranted. To be met with consistent opposition from Labor and the states must indeed be frustrating.

But the Government’s reluctance to even look at superannuation taxes or reign in negative gearing has also contributed to this culture. It could set a good example by showing some flexibility and willingness to talk about all revenue-raising possibilities otherwise it really has no right to complain.

GST in Australia is currently set at a much lower rate than many other countries. And although Mr Abbott promised in his 2013 election campaign that he would not raise the GST, it would seem that if the states are to take over the management and funding of both the public health and education systems, then the money has to come from somewhere. Raising the GST is one option but, as Mr Hockey stated, not the only one that will sort out our financial issues.

According to a report commissioned by the Property Council of Australia, most Australians would support an increase in the GST up to 12.5 per cent as long as income tax was reduced or stamp duties were eliminated. So, it would seem that the people are willing to ‘play ball’. 

The nation’s leaders must discard this juvenile playground mentality. After all, they are being paid quite handsomely to lead our country towards a brighter financial future.

The people of Australia deserve better. It’s time for our leaders to put the infighting and bickering aside. It’s time for them to stand up and lead.

What do you think? Would you be okay with an increase in the GST? What other options can you suggest to help raise revenue for the states' public spending? How do you feel about the current state of politics? Would you like to see a more bipartisan approach to mending our economy?





    COMMENTS

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    Kato
    16th Jul 2015
    10:20am
    As long as negative gearing and superannuation concessions are around either party is going to have a hard time selling any new taxes like housing levies which seems to be the in word for avoiding the tax word. These ideas that they are attempting to sell are borrowed from other countries having sold of the farm all sides of politics are now prepared to sell off the Australian people and the original inhabitants land to foreign interests.
    Patriot
    16th Jul 2015
    10:26am
    Kato
    The only words I disagree with is " . . . Borrowed from other Countries . . . ".
    I suggest that this should read: " . . . . IMPOSED from other countries . . . ."
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    6:45pm
    Kato & Patriot.....Agree.... EXCELLENT analysis of the situation. Most of this imposition is from the American Corporate way... these US corporations (who control the govt) have brought America to its knees with its incredible greed and corruption... with ordinary people suffering badly but the elite wealthy and the corporations being bloated with so much wealth, it is beyond belief.

    Sorry, about this very long blurb BUT it is really necessary for people to read what this GST is really about (I have extensive knowledge in this area):

    FACTS:
    GST is a disgustingly INEQUITABLE tax that taxes people who don't even have an income.... i.e. pensioners, unemployed, disabled.... at the same rate as those who have million dollar incomes. In proportion to income, the poor PAY hugely, whilst (once again) the RICH pay very little. When it was introduced, old man PACKER ('goanna'), came out supporting this tax after previously saying that NO new taxes were good for business which gives you some indication of WHO really benefits from GST.

    Additionally, it must be remembered that BUSINESS does NOT pay GST.... they merely collect GST for the government after deducting the GST that they themselves have paid and forward the balance to the govt. Basically (some exceptions), ONLY individual consumers pay GST.

    The concept that EDUCATION and HEALTH needs to be funded, so increase and widen GST is a gross firfy??!! This is NOT a valid argument.
    The argument should be that the FEDERAL government's economic management of Australia has been essentially GROSS MALFEASANCE and MISHANDLING.... i.e. a total cock up.
    *they have paid billions into 'border control' whilst allowing hundreds of thousands of 457visa entries which does nothing for Australia's economy, except destroy it;
    *they have poured money into foreign mining corporations (as well as giving them huge rebates which we pay, on water and power) which goes straight out of the country;
    *they have ignored Australian industry and placed vital orders with FOREIGN countries which actually costs more because it destroys Australia manufacturing future, employment, skills, etc AND sends OUR hard earned tax money overseas, instead of making Australia more vibrant and wealthy;
    *they have poured money into themselves, in the form of huge allowances for housing, travel, etc which are grossly overcharged;
    *they have closed down govt. industries which actually make money and sold off others;
    *they have removed Carbon Tax that the people were fully covered for with little or no effect;
    *they have poured money into out dated pollution spewers, such as the COAL industry;
    *they are still pouring OVER 100 BILLION into an NBN system that is substandard and already out of date, can not be updated and is HUGELY below par in speeds, reliability and efficiency - even 2nd world countries and some 3rd world countries have better systems... how embarrassing.
    * etc, etc

    NOW they are asking the poor and middle classes to pay even more to the STATES because the FEDERAL govt has acted WITHOUT good faith, adhered to malfeasant practices and grossly mismanaged the Australian Economy.

    Remember people... that CORPORATIONS may pay income tax BUT that this income tax is RECLAIMED by those corporations OWNERS/INVESTORS..... so the NET effect is that EVERY LITTLE is PAID into GOVT COFFERS. The elite wealthy individuals pay next to nothing in income tax, so their contribution is negligible.

    All of this VERIFIES that the BULK of tax comes from ORDINARY TAXPAYERS who are the ones that this government are saying, they can not afford, especially those most in need. These ORDINARY TAXPAYERS pay politicians wages, build roads, built bridges, built every bit of government infrastructure, pay for education, hospitals, services and benefits. ORDINARY TAXPAYERS are Australia's providers!!!

    THE NEXT PART OF THIS DISGUSTING SUGGESTION that the STATES MUST PAY FOR EDUCATION AND HEALTH, SO INCREASE GST and make the ORDINARY TAXPAYER PAY EVEN MORE, is also a despicable guise of deceit.

    THIS IS IMPORTANT:
    1. Obviously, if the States pay for Health & Education, then those states with less money will be further disadvantaged by substandard health and education and people who can afford to, will shift to other states.... further damaging the less wealthy states. Inequality and again mismanagement of Australia's overall economy, to benefit the wealthier of the states.
    2. If the Federal govt. DOESN'T have to pay out these huge sums to the States, then the Federal govt. has MORE money to mismanage and hand out to foreign corporations, etc... see above about their gross malfeasance and mismanagement of Australia's economy and budget.
    3. IF things are so tough..... then all the govt has to do is DECREASE funding to PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS in health and education. Those same institutions who do NOT pay taxes AND who MOST of the ORDINARY TAXPAYERS and THEIR CHILDREN cannot afford to attend. In other words, FUND PUBLIC health and education to bring to a higher level, WHERE ALL CAN ATTEND.

    NO, DO NOT GET ROPED INTO THINKING THAT WE N E E D TO PAY EVEN MORE of an INEQUITABLE tax in the form of GST because we do NOT. IT IS A CON which is being stroked by MURDOCH and other foreign organisations and mega corporations.... they don't pay anything let alone GST, so they want more of OUR taxpayer funded coffers for themselves and less (a lot less) for us.

    ASIDE (but relevant): The proposed TPP which that idiot Abbott has already signed (with little or no adjustments) actually gives control of our laws and country to FOREIGN mega corporations..... we can only HOPE that those in the SENATE don't turn into TRAITORS and endorse this despicable agreement.
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    7:15pm
    Government Stealth Tax.
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    7:33am
    Write a Book ! :-) I'll buy it Muss !
    PlanB
    17th Jul 2015
    7:38am
    Yes the TPP is a REAL worry
    Patriot
    17th Jul 2015
    8:17am
    particolor,
    I hope you meant to state: "Although I would have to go on a fast for a week to be able to afford it, I would buy your book if you were to write one".
    I you can "Just go out & SPLURGE on a book, Joe&Tony would think they are PAYING YOU TOO MUCH!
    Especially if it was written by MUSS!
    I have to admit that I also would go on a fast to buy his book.
    Excellent FACTS & General INFO!
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    8:32am
    I'll wait till someone tosses it in the Vinnies Charity bin !!
    Patriot
    17th Jul 2015
    9:01am
    Never thought of that.
    Now I don't have to go on a fast & Joe can just "Have another Cigar" and feel secure that he is not paying us more than he COULD/SHOULD!!!!.
    Blossom
    20th Jul 2015
    7:21pm
    GST replaced SALES TAX. There was a few different rates - not just one. The tax was included in the price we paid at the supermarket. It depended what the item was whether it was tax exempt or anything from 2.5 % upwards. My Mum served in a Mini Mart before and during WW11. She needed to know the tax rates and push the correct button on the cash registers to get the figures on which to calculate the tax payable. Items considered a luxury incurred a very high rate. I know the same still issue applied even at wholesale level until GST was introduced. Some items incurred price increases when the GST was introduced. Others dropped. Now we have Exempt and GST.
    Patriot
    16th Jul 2015
    10:24am
    I agree, they should have discussed TAX!
    Tax avoidance SCEMES (or should that be SCAMS) of Politicians & "Rich & Famous".
    FAMILY TRUSTS !!!! Most of the time PURE RORTS!!!!!!
    What is wrong with HIGH levels of Taxes on Luxury CARS & BOATS anyway.
    Making sure that Multinational Elitist companies pay their taxes rather than helping them to avoid such!!!
    Get the "top Earners" to pay appropriate levels of TAX.
    Look at superanuation rorts where many of the rich just use it as a "Savings Account" with "Tax Benefits".
    Look at excessive spending of Government ministers (Oops - Not Taxation - just Slipped in).
    Negative gearing to make housing more affordable for young families.
    ETC, Etc. Etc.
    AMPLE TO DISCUSS IN RELATION TO TAXATION!!!
    marls
    16th Jul 2015
    4:45pm
    i agree
    Hasbeen
    16th Jul 2015
    10:27am
    No it should not be considered or completed.

    The last thing we need is more taxes. What we need is less tax & less babying by government. It makes no sense at all to pay some public servant to take money from our pay, & then pay another public servant to pay my doctors bill, [or my kids child care costs for example], rather than me paying them myself.

    With bureaucrats being about the most inefficient workers on earth, this is a hugely expensive way of handling our money. We don't need more money for them to waste, we need to get rid of most of them, & take back the responsibility for our own lives.

    Only then can we get rid of the huge churning pot of taxes given back in middle class welfare, after a huge extraction to pay the bureaucrats.
    Paulodapotter
    16th Jul 2015
    10:32am
    Your right, there should be less taxation for the middle to low income earner offset by more taxation on the weathy. Simples eh?
    Tom Tank
    16th Jul 2015
    1:20pm
    What we need is a fairer and more effective taxation system. It is ridiculous when the truly wealthy are able to minimise their tax bill through mechanisms not available to everyone.
    Bureaucrats are not necessarily inefficient but the system they work under creates inefficiency, as in any large corporation. The larger the organisation the more unwieldy and bureaucratic it becomes giving plenty of scope for the manipulators to hide, refer "Yes Minister". They are of course led by our politicians who take "entitlement" to a new level.
    The LNP are showing an incredible lack of 'guts' and are running away from the truly hard decisions, such as a genuine reform of both tax and financial systems in this country.
    They are showing every sign that their only real policy now is re-election because they are not doing anything to benefit Australia.
    mangomick
    16th Jul 2015
    10:31am
    Get rid of all the exemptions on GST first and they might find they could actually lower the rate a few percentage points. I'm not talking just about adding it to food I'm talking about businesses tradies and yes also groceries. Businesses shouldn't be able to get exemptions or be able to claim it back. GST shouldnt just be paid by the working stiff. if everyone paid it on everything the rate could be halved and the GST Tax burden shared equally. Businesses already get to claim the cost of goods supposedly used in their business against their income. Why two bites of the Cherry???
    Mags
    16th Jul 2015
    10:32am
    Higher GST would at least have high income families paying more taxes than they do now.As long as pensioners and low income earners are compensated it sounds okay.What I don't understand is you can have so much money parked when you retire,take a minimal amount each month and then get a full pension
    retroy
    16th Jul 2015
    12:40pm
    Perhaps you do not understand the situation Mags
    If your super is in the pension phase you do not pay tax on the income, but you must withdraw a certain percentage minimum, in my case 5%.
    If you want to leave it in the accumulation phase and draw a minimal amount then the super fund must pay 15% tax.
    Govt pensions are means tested and I do not qualify.
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    2:01pm
    You CANNOT have a lot of money parked when you retire and take a minimal amount each month and then get a pension, Mags. You are misinformed on that point. What you can do is earn a fair income, have modest savings yielding potentially high returns, and draw a small superannuation pension, and still get a pension. The income test is way too generous, but the recent change to the assets test made it very savage and unfair by comparison.

    People who have superannuation do, as Retroy says, have to draw a percentage minimum each year once they are retired. And yes, if they have less than the threshold, they can still draw a part pension. And of course most retirees should be able to, because most did not have superannuation until fairly recently, but paid a special tax levy that was designed to fund aged pensions for everyone (not even means-tested, actually).

    I know some think retirees should have to spend their savings to live, but that's really very bad economics. Some of them have 40+ years of increasing living costs and deteriorating health to look forward to. If forced to spend all their savings now, they will be a major burden on taxpayers later, as well as suffering poverty. It is NOT retirees you should be complaining about - except perhaps those with millions in superannuation and paying no tax on it. They aren't drawing pensions, but the so-called self-funded retirees (the multi-millionaires) cost the country far more in retirement than a full pensioner. It costs an average of $260,000 to keep a full pensioner in retirement, and over $500,000 to keep a ''self-funded retiree'' in retirement, because of tax breaks. Until that situation is addressed, the government has no right to be talking about breaking promises by lifting the GST and certainly no right to be cutting pensions, health services, or benefits to low income families.
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    3:04pm
    Mags Bob Hawke was right to introduce means testing for the aged pension and this current government is right to tighten it a little.

    16th Jul 2015
    10:41am
    Daniel Andrews doesn't want to discuss GST adjustments this fresh from an idiot who has just paid $650 million to business not to build a road and who yesterday just admitted to paying a six figure sum as compensation to a drugrunners daughter because her murdering father got his right wack in prison.
    So you are not going to rely on anything this fool says or does.
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    11:01am
    Only a fool would take advice from Andrews. He is obligated to the CFMEU.
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    10:56am
    I must have been listening to a different Joe Hockey? I didn't hear him suggest that we should increase the GST?
    Patriot
    16th Jul 2015
    11:02am
    Frank,
    What is "One Second Difference" in time between friend.
    Joe's lips are moving "All the Time" speaking Untruths & intimidating those in our communities who least can afford such actions!
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    11:14am
    Patriot all I heard was Hockey urging people to make a contribution to how our tax system should look in the future and to recognise that we need to change the system to benefit ALL Australians. I know this logic doesnt line up with your hatred of the aspirational, but to continue with an out of date system which doesn't recognise the changing future is just plain stupid.
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    2:06pm
    This logic doesn't line up with Hockey and Abbott's persistent refusal to address tax evasion or to examine tax concessions on millionaire's super, Frank. That's what it doesn't line up with. Yes, it's stupid to continue with an out of date tax system. It's damned stupid to refuse to tax the rich when clearly it's our ONLY viable option for repairing the budget without grinding the poor into devastating poverty, it's the only FAIR option, it's THE COMMON SENSE OPTION, and it's clearly the option the majority of the population want. Is this a democracy or a dictatorship? How dare the government refuse to consider tax changes that the people are demanding, and at the same time break promises they used to get themselves into power.
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    3:01pm
    Rainey, who are the rich who are not paying their taxes? Did you know that taxes are a legal obligation. Your accusations are not helpful in shaping the future tax system.
    marls
    16th Jul 2015
    4:54pm
    rich people do not pay tax, they have the money and the means to avoid it and many send it overseas
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    7:53am
    > < Franks ear plugs ! :-)
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    11:04am
    If anyone would like to make a contribution to the way in which we reform the tax system then go to " bettertax.gov.au"
    Patriot
    16th Jul 2015
    11:05am
    Frank,
    Read the 2nd post - my 1st posting to this forum today.
    Will solve MANY ILLS!!!!!
    Stoker
    16th Jul 2015
    11:29am
    Didn't someone a few years back suggest that every money deal would impose a 2% tax, even banking money and drawing money, buy a Holden 2% buy a mercedes 2% etc etc of course I think that meant we would not need a Tax Office, ha ha ha.
    And also pre GST some of the products we buy today with 10% gst previously had taxes up to 35%.
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    3:07pm
    I think it may have been Dr Hewson?
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    8:03am
    Was that Chook Cooked and plain ? Or did it have Icing on it ? :-(
    BrianP
    16th Jul 2015
    11:22am
    State leaders distrust our Federal Government regarding GST due to disagreements on how GST revenue is distributed.

    Tax system improvements are crusial. It would indeed be better for all Australians to have full and open discussion with Federal and states involved. Clearly the current party political system is not working and we are all not having our needs properly represented.

    Maybe it is time to revue the party system of Government and consider alternatives such as individually elected Ministers.
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    11:58am
    BrianP with respect, I don't know if that is the panacea to our woes. Those we elect cannot put aside the tribal urge and vote for good policy regardless of their political ideology. If you are an Independent then you are a Labor fence sitter or you have an axe to grind with the Coalition. We need to rid ourselves of the poor performers and those who lack the strength of character required. The Unions have become too powerful and skilled at shutting down discussion around real reform which is badly needed before Australia starts to fall behind.
    Patriot
    16th Jul 2015
    12:25pm
    BrianP
    Political Parties are ILLEGAL with reference to OUR AUSTRALIAN CONSTITUTION.
    Let's do away with them - GOOD IDEA!!!
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    2:08pm
    I agree, Patriot. Or at very least, implement a system where politicians are REQUIRED BY LAW to vote in accordance with the wishes of the people in their electorate, and are forbidden to follow party lines.
    Patriot
    16th Jul 2015
    4:40pm
    BrianP
    How do you feel about the Legality of our Political Parties???
    particolor
    16th Jul 2015
    8:25pm
    FRANKS Back !! :-)
    Patriot
    17th Jul 2015
    8:22pm
    BrianP
    You're a "Typical Polly" already.
    This is not the first time that I am asking a direct question in relationship to YOUR opinion on an issue.
    Once again, THE SILENCE IS DEAFENING.
    You'd fit i well in Canberra!
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    8:37pm
    A lot of people still haven't woken up that they had their Pocket Peed in last election ! :-( I didn't get mine Peed in but am Suffering the Same Fate ! :-(
    Ps... :-)
    Patriot
    17th Jul 2015
    8:43pm
    particolor
    We ALL are suffering from these BABOONS!
    Let's hope we're smarter from now on as we'll have to repeat the lessons we will not learn!
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    8:49pm
    Now I've got Baboonophobia to go with it ! :-(
    Diamond Jim
    16th Jul 2015
    11:34am
    So tell me then how self funded retirees who get NO PENSION or HEALTH CARE CARD.....zero from the government, are going to be compensated for an increase in the GST? Working people, like when the GST was brought in, were given a reduction in the tax they paid by increasing the tax thresholds. Go after big business and the miners who are having a free ride in this country at the expense of workers and the elderly!
    retroy
    16th Jul 2015
    12:42pm
    They won't Diamond Jim!

    They will just get kicked in the guts again.

    By all means go after big business and multinationals and then there would be more equity in the Australian rubbish tax system.
    mangomick
    16th Jul 2015
    12:56pm
    Diamond Jim. Get that idea out of your head straight away. You are not supposed to spend money when you retire so that means you won't be slugged extra GST. You are expected to sit there ,vegetate and maybe do a bit more heavy lifting for the Country while you while away the hours waiting for "the Journeyman" to arrive. The Government will spend your money for you ,you don't need to worry about that.All that dough you have stashed away will be good for building new roads,bridges and dams for the Chinese Investors.
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    2:11pm
    The poorer retirees who can't get pensions have suffered far, far more hurt in the economic downturn than any other group in Australia, losing more than half their income in many cases when the latest cruel and grossly unfair change to the assets test is taken into account. But they will be slugged yet again! This government and it's selfish supporters won't be satisfied until they grind all but the filthy rich into equal poverty.

    Yes, mangomick, you got it right!
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    3:14pm
    Diamond Jim, so you reckon big business is having a free ride? 42% of our tax revenue comes from the 70 biggest businesses. They are all transparent and pay what they are asked to pay according to the ATO.
    marls
    16th Jul 2015
    4:56pm
    the govt is to afraid to go after big business, they have a free ride not paying taxes and then sending all their money overseas
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    5:10pm
    marls are you aware that OZ companies also pay taxes in other countries? Companies like Rio pay taxes in Singapore as well as Australia?
    jackie
    16th Jul 2015
    11:46am
    Taxes should not be supporting the indulgence of politicians.
    Patriot
    16th Jul 2015
    12:27pm
    TOO RIGHT!
    marls
    16th Jul 2015
    4:59pm
    thats one reason why we are broke fancy taking a helicopter costing $5000 instead of driving for 1hr. i used to drive further every day to work. the hind of these people to think they are above us all
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    7:49am
    I heard She was 10,000 feet above us !! :-)
    Old Silver Fox
    16th Jul 2015
    11:49am
    We don't need an increase in the GST ..... We need the muppets that run this country to change their socialist outlook and STOP SPENDING .... Then we'll see that an increase isn't necessary.
    KSS
    16th Jul 2015
    12:26pm
    Old Silver Fox, the current Government has been trying to stop spending for the last 2 budgets. Unfortunately the Opposition and the Greens are not even prepared to contemplate life without handouts. They want to keep borrowing money to give away whilst at the same time criticising any effort to rein it in. And they are not even looking at Greece to see where that will end.
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    2:18pm
    Old Silver Fox and KSS, I agree that SOME spending should be stopped - ie. ''welfare'' for the middle class - but this is a country that believes in caring for the underprivileged, and I believe most Australians want it to stay that way. We have the lowest cost and most efficient social security system in the world. The inefficiencies ARE NOT in the pension system or health care. They are in middle class welfare and failure to tax the rich fairly. And if we looked at Greece, we would understand precisely what happens when the rich are allowed to evade their tax obligations and the privileged pigs are allowed to have their snouts in the trough taking rent for their wife's house, massive allowances for unnecessary luxury travel, and fat pensions and benefits for life after just a few years of sitting on their fat lazy useless backsides, or parading around shouting abuse at the opposition.

    The Opposition is doing the right thing - demanding that the Government refrain from breaking electoral promises and grinding the downtrodden into poverty and ill-health, and asking instead that they address issues of tax evasion by multi-corporates and obscene tax concessions to the filthy rich. Heaven help us if the Opposition allowed this dishonest Government to perpetrate more fraud than they already do. They lied to get into power. Someone needs to reign in their dishonest and cruel behavior before they totally destroy the society.
    geomac
    16th Jul 2015
    12:10pm
    The GST is a federal tax and if Hockey wants to lift the rate or broaden the scope of the GST he has to make the argument. To attempt to fob off the onus onto the states is trickery that will not work. The states cannot enact the legislation, collect the tax or indeed direct which state gets what amount.
    If the problem is funding education and health which is mostly a state function then the solution is providing the states with a tax that is a state tax. Land tax or whatever it might be that the feds have no part of. As it stands the feds get too much of the tax take and the states too little but that was not always the case. WW11 changed the mix and since then the feds have claimed even more of the cake.
    retroy
    16th Jul 2015
    12:48pm
    Come on

    He asked the States because they are the beneficiary of GST.
    He said do you need more money from GST, and they have said NO, so when they ask for bigger Federal grants because they are the root cause of waste in this country, he will say "I gave you the opportunity with increased GST but you turned it down.
    A masterful move, and rightly the States will have egg on their face.
    geomac
    16th Jul 2015
    1:12pm
    retroy
    It is a federal tax and Hockey has to take ownership of the argument if he wants to increase it. No state has said they do not require more money. Hockey did not ask the question you suggested nor did all the states say no to a question that was not asked.
    Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews said the state would “not support fundamental changes to the GST”
    Now you say the states are the beneficiary of the GST. Actually the federal govt is the biggest winner of the GST because its grants to the states comes out of the GST rather than general revenue as it used to. The federal govt is obligated to fund the states as part of federation and the states giving up many of their taxes.
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    10:37pm
    retroy
    That is not how it works??!!??
    GST is a Federal Tax, geomac is correct BUT the way it has been dispersed and per an agreement when this Fed. tax was introduced, was that the States got the GST they raised. Prior to this the Federal Govt. received income tax etc and paid portions to States according to need, etc AND also was responsible (together with the State) for Education and Health funding.
    When this NEW tax (GST) was introduced, all it meant was that the Federal Govt. did not have to contribute so much to the States, even though it still earned the same amount of tax income. You might ask where then did Howard (Libs introduced GST) spend all this 'spare' money.. well that is another essay BUT in short terms he GAVE all our taxpayer funded money to PRIVATE Health and Education Institutions who do not pay income tax which means that the ordinary taxpayer was and still is funding the wealthy to send their children to the BEST schools and to have best of health care.... with the ordinary taxpayer NOT being able to afford access to either of these PRIVATE institutions!
    Labor and other governments are locked into this now because Howard also closed and ran down public school standards AND public health provision, so that to fold the PRIVATE concerns would leave the country with problems.

    RUDD had a exceptional response to this which was to FREEZE funding at the level it was at, so that private institutions could WEAN themselves of the PUBLIC TIT gradually over time and the saved money could then go into building up public education and health facilities. BLOODY BRILLIANT!

    Sorry, I have transgressed.... the GST distribution is inequitable and punishes poorer States but again that is another story.... what the Fed gov is doing is certainly NOT brilliant, it is merely a simple ploy that any greedy child would engage into to FORCE States to bend over to the Federal govt's wish to INCREASE this INEQUITABLE tax and make the poor and ordinary taxpayer pay EVEN MORE taxes to cover THEIR GROSS MISMANAGEMENT of the Aust. Economy. They have cocked up the budget that much that they don't have enough to FEED the WEALTHY (and themselves) as well as to contribute THEIR SHARE to Education and Health.... ANSWER... get the ordinary taxpayer to cough up even more money to pay for THEIR inadequacies.
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    7:16am
    Love It :-) :-) 5 Stars Muss ***** :-)
    geomac
    16th Jul 2015
    12:21pm
    Australia's near 1.3 million landlords claimed a combined $12 billion in tax breaks from loss-making investment properties in the latest year covered by official data.

    Until recently, this fact has been enough to make most politicians run a mile from even considering changes that may hurt the financial returns of bricks and mortar, despite the social and economic problems caused by our housing markets.

    However, momentum is shifting towards a debate about the way our tax system distorts the property market, and that's welcome news.

    It's just a shame Joe Hockey and Tony Abbott seem so intent on ignoring the issue.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/negative-gearing-momentum-for-rethink-grows-20150715-gid1sw.html#ixzz3g17R9Kxb
    mangomick
    16th Jul 2015
    1:00pm
    They don't make a loss forever. Eventually they become positive geared then they are paying a lot more tax than you do Not only that but if Governments had to provide low cost housing your taxes would have to rise so Governments could afford to do so and because they couldn't build enough rents for the ordinary battler would rise substantially because there would be an acute shortage .
    geomac
    16th Jul 2015
    1:17pm
    Meanwhile the investors can afford to outbid people who just want to own their own home. 12 billion in tax breaks against people who just want to own a home. It distorts the market and does nothing at all to increase housing stock.
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    1:27pm
    There are a lot of investments geared not just property. These investments may have a negative dividend result in some years. Rather than exclude some investments why not exclude some income? Given that there are only 2 ways to make money, would it not be better to treat them differently?
    Why not treat personal exertion income separately to capital investment?
    mangomick, I agree with your view on the alternative to excluding property as an ATO recognised investment.
    geomac
    16th Jul 2015
    1:37pm
    Why not exclude negative gearing unless its a new build property and actually increase the property market ?
    mangomick
    16th Jul 2015
    1:43pm
    Geomacs figures could be a little distorted as well. If the likes of the Packer family were to buy another huge cattle property for $20 or $40 million that too would be negative geared against the income from their other business income. Hardly fair if negative geared investment properties were axed but negative gearing a farming property was o.k. everyone would flock from housing to property and even the average "joe geomac "would suffer as housing prices collapsed.
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    2:21pm
    ''They don't make a loss forever'' Mangomick? Yes, actually they do. Because the property is usually bought solely as a tax dodge and as soon as it becomes profitable, it is sold and another bought that can be negatively geared.

    Sadly, there are some genuine battler investors who would be hurt by ending negative gearing, but most are using it solely to dodge tax obligations and will NEVER pay their fair share while these loopholes exist.
    mangomick
    16th Jul 2015
    3:13pm
    That's BS Rainey. And even if it was true have you ever heard of Capital gains Tax.
    More than likely what they would do when they became Positive geared is buy another investment property so their new negative geared property would offset the income from their positive geared property but eventually when they retire they won't be sucking of the Government Welfare tit and causing your taxes to rise. They will be, as many on here are ...Self funded retirees who don't get a Pension or Health care card. Which one are you???
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    3:21pm
    Rainey I don't know where you get your Financial Planning advice, but I sure hope you don't pay for it. Further, I hope you aren't following it.
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    9:34pm
    mangomick
    re your statement that they don't make losses forever..... they do actually because they TRADE UP to a higher valued property when they get to a non-negative level. STANDARD PRACTICE for many investors which goes to show how much they make out of negatively gearing.

    Oh! mangomick.... some investors are in the position to "roll-over" the CGT to the next property!

    Rainey..... you are very correct about that.
    mangomick
    17th Jul 2015
    8:02am
    Rolling- over CGT is not avoiding. And just how many of Geomacs 1.3 million investment property owners are doing this do you reckon. And When you trade up to a bigger property you still have to sell the first property and 99.9% of investment property owners ,the biggest percentage who by the way are ordinary Mums and Dads in the $80k a year salary range then pay CGT. Jesus Christ i don't know where you guys get your info on Investment Property ownership and Tax implications. Two things are certain in life That is Death and Taxes. Stop believing all this BS about Investment properties and it's ability to help people not pay taxes.I can tell you for the 99.9% of the owners it ain't true . Wish it was but it's not.
    Adrianus
    17th Jul 2015
    8:33am
    mango, it's not hard to understand why some on here have had no success in accumulating some wealth for their golden years.

    Mussitate, the name of the game is "ACCUMULATION." As an example, How do you think Nick Xenaphon has ACCUMULATED 8 properties?
    I say good luck to Nick and others who ACCUMULATE some wealth, but I would like to see Nick's investment income treated separately (with a different tax rate) from his personal exertion income.
    I also think that everyone should hang on to some of the money which passes through their hands during their lifetime so that they can ACCUMULATE some wealth.
    I spoke to and old Greek man who arrived in Australia during the 1940's. I asked him how he managed to become so wealthy because he arrived with only the clothes he was wearing?
    He gave me the address of a house and told me he had bought that house in 1951 and still owns it. This old Greek man said, Frank, I have never sold any assets.
    A couple of days later I did a drive by to look at the little cottage, and to reflect on our conversation. It was exactly as he had described it. "nothing special."
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    8:38am
    Fibro ? :-(
    Adrianus
    17th Jul 2015
    8:43am
    Weatherboard :-)
    mangomick
    17th Jul 2015
    10:01am
    It's funny Frank but I have the same arguement at work.Non so blind as those who cannot see. In a roundabout way the income that is eventually made from investment properties is treated differently. i.e it puts you up into the next tax bracket so that you are now effectively paying a different tax and are now paying that higher tax rate on all your taxable income from all sources.
    If Governments didn't artificially keep bank interest rates so low people would keep their money in term deposits rather than investment houses with all the hassles so they should blame the Government for higher house prices and not investment property owners.
    Adrianus
    17th Jul 2015
    10:34am
    I really do feel sorry for some here because they are being asked to explore other possibilities, which may put to question their political beliefs and unsubstantiated idioms repeated ad nauseam.
    Yes may be there is some "playing around" with brackets? In Nicks case it would be all top rate. Another example is the $75k GST level. I imagine a small business may do what it can in order stay under that level.
    Patriot
    17th Jul 2015
    8:28pm
    Frank,
    I believe that many of us do not TRUST politicians and their fanatical "Hangers Onners". Too many LIES TOO OFTEN Breed & Feed this distrust.
    Dishonesty becomes a habit which is very difficult to break once it has become addictive!
    Sen.Cit.90
    16th Jul 2015
    1:01pm
    When our Government borrows then gives it away; this could be us.

    Some years ago a small rural town in Spain twinned with a similar town in Greece.
    The mayor of the Greek town visited the Spanish town. When he saw the palatial mansion belonging to the Spanish mayor, he wondered aloud
    how on earth he could afford such a house. The Spaniard replied: You see that bridge over there? The EU gave us a grant to construct a
    two-lane bridge, but by building a single lane bridge with traffic lights at either end, I could build this place. The following year the
    Spaniard visited the Greek town. He was simply amazed at the Greek mayor's house: gold taps, marble floors, diamond doorknobs, it was
    marvellous.
    When he asked how hed raised the money to build this incredible house, the Greek mayor said: You see that bridge over there?
    The Spaniard replied: No................
    mangomick
    16th Jul 2015
    4:05pm
    That would be on remote island of Ikaria in Greece . Here, there are more healthy people over 90 than any other place on the planet............ Guess we know now it is because for years they have been taking the long way round........
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    9:22pm
    See that Island over there ? Santorini !! It was home to thousands of Wealth Greek Traders ! Then Allah took them out ! :-(
    Adrianus
    18th Jul 2015
    7:35am
    OK so what do you want?
    Bridges or diamond door knobs?
    Your choice.
    door knobs = Bill Shorten
    bridges = Tony Abbott.
    Bill Shorten stands for knobs!!
    Patriot
    18th Jul 2015
    7:39am
    Frank
    Stop the "Party Biased BS"
    We are doomed by both parties to subject to the Austerity measures which will reduce us to slavery under a "One World Government".
    That is, IF we DON"T get of out BUTS and RESIST!!!
    mangomick
    18th Jul 2015
    8:06am
    Shorten may stand for knobs but Abbott is one.And Bronwyn Bishop well what can one say. A fine example of our Politicians. Would those bridges be built by the cheapest tender or by political Party Donors?
    Adrianus
    18th Jul 2015
    8:08am
    Patriot why do you suppose Greece is in a pickle?
    We cannot let this happen here, we need to be economically strong with a skew toward reward for effort.
    That is the only way we will be able to look after those who fall on hard times.
    The number one rule in lifesaving at sea is do not let the victim drown you. Because you will not achieve what you set out to do.
    Be a rebel without a cause if you like, but that's not for me, I like to make a difference.
    Patriot
    18th Jul 2015
    8:12am
    Frank,
    I would also like to make a difference.
    Let's start to TAX the FATCATs at the appropriate level and "Take Away" the TAX advantages for the "Well-to-DO" before we UNLEASH Austerity on the part of the population that can least afford it.
    THAT's WHERE I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
    I think that many other contributors to this forum would agree with that viewing their contributions!
    Patriot
    18th Jul 2015
    8:15am
    Frank,
    Peruse the list supplied (just for STARTERS only) as my first post on this FORUM!
    Adrianus
    18th Jul 2015
    8:48am
    I got a real insight into why people despise Abbott so much when watching the Royal Commission into Trade Union Corruption.
    This is about good verses evil.
    Shorten knows this and that's why he is talking in his softest voice and trying to look a little effeminate.
    However, when he thinks nobody is looking he will squeeze a bribe from his mates in big business, or abuse a nice little pie shop lady because she has run out of pies. I'm on to Shorten and his supporters.
    Patriot
    18th Jul 2015
    10:24am
    Frank
    Frank stop "Tickling" yourself and those who - obviously - are paying you!
    Both parties are EVIL!!!
    They BOTH promote & Support GREED at the expense of the normal people.
    If you truly find it "Not Evil" for Tony claiming/extracting $66,000.00 (TaxPayer's money) for education of his kids, then the NLP must be paying you much more of MY MONEY than I can imagine!

    Frank, "Get hold of Yourself and give your pleasure machine another tug".
    When the time of reckoning comes, You'll be the first one they'll eliminate as you "Know the system" and can be witness to it happening!
    I've said it before: "No honour amongst thieves"!.
    Geo
    16th Jul 2015
    1:12pm
    Increasing GST, (1) broadening the base. (2) rate increase , in lieu of income tax cuts and reduction of stampduty. A real vote catcher from pensioners. low and single income families. How could the states agree to this crap
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    8:00am
    Gratefully ! They are 90% under the control of the Emperor ! :-)
    RogerA
    16th Jul 2015
    1:28pm
    Let's question the assumption that the GST has to be a single rate. Firstly, we now have two rates, namely 0% for fresh foods, health services, etc, and 10% for other kinds of goods and services. Secondly, what will happen if we introduce some more rates, like (for example) 15% for medium sized cars and 20% for large cars; or 15% for large TVs and 20% for very large TVs; etc? Some will say that calculations will be too complex, but not so, these days calculations are done by computers, e.g when you check out from your supermarket. Others will say that evasion and arguments over classification will occur, but that is a "so what", happens already, and yes, more may have to spent on policing and rate setting. However, most importantly, many will agree that multiple rates for the GST will help to counter the problem that GST is a regressive tax (hits the poor more than the rich) and indeed help convert GST into a semi-progressive tax (hits the rich more than the poor). RogerA
    retroy
    17th Jul 2015
    2:42pm
    The rich spend more so they pay more GST.
    The tax, when it was called a consumption tax, was first introduced by socialists to rip money off the rich.
    Patriot
    17th Jul 2015
    8:34pm
    retroy,
    When you're making $500.00 net per week, a $50.00 GST contribution becomes a matter of "Life & Death". Especially when you have kids.
    When you're making $5000.00 per week net, $500.00 in GST becomes "just another annoying payment". However, it does NOT INTERFERE with your ESSENTIALS OF LIFE in any way !!!
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    8:45pm
    Patriot ! That is much more sensible reasoning :-)
    Now back to My NO FRILLS Baked Beans ! :-)
    Dave V
    16th Jul 2015
    1:34pm
    Thanks for your very well-weighted article Leon. I agree that we need more bipartisanship and we need some open and honest discussion about this whole situation. What do we want our Government to do for us and how much are we prepared to pay the Government to get it done. We should be using whatever taxation system is the most efficient to get the money the Government needs.

    You are quite right - Aus has a very low GST rate compared to many overseas countries. The argument that it affects lower income people and families too much doesn't stack up with me. We can easily grant exemptions to lower income people. Our tax system already protects low income people quite well - as it should do.

    I read too many comments that seem to be fueled by some sort of anger, even hatred of wealthy people who have probably worked bloody hard to get where they've got. And I do agree that the Government is stupid to not consider looking at tax levels on superannuation as part of this whole deal.

    Anyway, thanks again for a good article!
    retroy
    17th Jul 2015
    2:46pm
    You are so right Dave.
    Bitter people who have not done so well and feel the need to try and pull the "fortunate" down, or at least rip off some of their hard earned assets
    Patriot
    17th Jul 2015
    3:21pm
    retroy
    Nothing wrong with being "Well Off".
    There is something wrong with being "Filthy Rich" and not leaving enough for those "Not so fortunate".

    We ALL have a right to a "Dignified Life".
    UNADULTERATED GREED IS CURRENTLY PREVENTING THIS !!!
    Anonymous
    18th Jul 2015
    5:40pm
    Yes, there is some anger on this site towards self funded people. I have no idea why. The government want people to look after themselves in retirement but I think it is around 20% who actually do so.
    particolor
    18th Jul 2015
    5:49pm
    The remaining 80% cant afford Soap :-)
    Anonymous
    19th Jul 2015
    10:17am
    Hey Particolor you ought to live where I do. There is a small housing estate geared up for seniors. Friend lives in one of the homes; told me many of the homes are empty as the "pensioners" are all away travelling during winter. Methinks they can afford more than soap ;)
    particolor
    19th Jul 2015
    2:46pm
    Have You seen the size of that Cruise Ship soap ? You could eat it with no Ill Effects !!:-) And good luck to them in their Winter Paradise's ! I'm happy here when the Natives are not Restless and MY PETROL Remains in MY CAR ! :-)
    Polly Esther
    16th Jul 2015
    1:46pm
    I think the States should hear Joe out ( hear him going out the back door ) quick smart.
    Not good thinking Joseph, not for the middle to low income earning battlers.
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    5:32pm
    Do they pay any net tax?
    Grateful
    16th Jul 2015
    1:54pm
    While there is so much opportunity still out there with negative gearing, superannuation rorts, excessive welfare payments for the "not" needy, the GST is a very weak cop out by a very poor Treasurer.
    Sure bump up the GST and go back into the cave.
    These are the same people who are saying that a "carbon tax" will increase the cost of a car by $1,5000 and its removal will save everyone $500 per year.
    Australia won't be building car that will "cost an extra $1,500, and how many of you have seen a saving of $10 per week in their energy household expenses without cutting some of your own corners??
    LiveItUp
    16th Jul 2015
    6:58pm
    Unfortunately abolishing negative gearing will only increase rents for the those who can't afford to own their own homes. People will not invest in houses if the sums don't add up and this will decrease the supply of rental properties thus causing rents to sky rocket.

    Without incentives to invest in super people won't invest in super either so they will only have the bare minimum in super and be looking to get it out at the first opportunity. I know I would.

    Carbon tax was a joke and further this proposed emission trading scheme maybe a win for the government but will be a bonanza for the Macquarie Banks of the world. To scrap the carbon tax and not the money given back to cover it was just stupid. It was just a political stunt gone wrong.

    Australia is now a land where people want to pay as a little as possible for things and expect to be paid some of the highest wages in the world. This is not sustainable.
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    8:33pm
    Bonny

    Where do you get this stuff.... is there a Liberal Party manifesto that you are all required to read?

    "abolishing negative gearing will only increase rents" ...... more firfies designed to stop any changes for the wealthy.

    a) As housing prices fall, many more will be able to afford homes and therefore be OFF the rental treadmill.
    b) MOST housing investments were of already existing homes (not newly built) which means that NOTHING WILL CHANGE (the same amount of houses are available and therefore competition in the market will be the same) and given the outage of people now able to buy their own house, RENTALS should not change substantially and in all probability will fall, if you look at the next point.
    c) As housing prices fall, the % of earnings to capital outlay will REMAIN THE SAME which will mean that it will be acceptable to accept less rental on that particular investment because the 'returns' on the capital outlay are the same.

    "Carbon Tax was a joke" ....... again NOT AT ALL!
    Australians were already paying the tax with little or no effect because WE the ordinary people had been well and truly compensated (over compensated actually) AND the BIG POLLUTERS were starting to change their ways and put capital into reducing their pollution..... because all of a sudden it was in their interests to do so.

    YOU seem to forget Bonny, that these polluters are CORPORATIONS (many foreign) that take their profits from Australia without paying much tax AND leave all their pollution for the Australian TAXPAYER to clean up.... they don't even have to pay for their vandalism of polluting OUR country.

    "Australia.... want to pay less but still get high wages" ...... doesn't make sense
    Ordinary people in Australia are among the richest in the world and hence we pay high prices for commodities that come from Australia. Compare this to the USA whereby 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 1%, leaving 10% of the wealth to 99% of the people and that country is certainly a bloody mess and many live in third (3rd) world standards.... how gross is that! They are FREE to live with cockroaches and rats.
    Back to Australia, OUR economy back prior to this govt was the BEST in the world because our WEALTH was SPREAD OUT and our wages were high, hence (along with other short, medium and long term strategies put into place by the then govt) was able to easily soar through the GFC.
    Now, you are saying that because of High Wages OR in reality the greatly more equal distribution of wealth, we can not sustain this.
    You are ONLY correct IF this current government grossly mismanages Australia's affairs, doubles and triples our govt. debt and adopts mega corporate 'wish lists' as their policies and essentially sell off Australia to foreign and private interests (give away our sovereignty). This takes me back to the TPP.... gee, that is currently what the current government, headed by that absolute treasonous FOOL, Abbott, is doing and YOU it appears support that??!!
    Old Silver Fox
    17th Jul 2015
    12:10pm
    Mussitate, the only manifesto in these discussions is your convoluted one with its left wing bias. Most of your assumptions are wrong in fact. Remember - those who haven't learned the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
    Anonymous
    17th Jul 2015
    6:22pm
    Keating got rid of negative gearing...ended up re-instating it.
    Anonymous
    17th Jul 2015
    6:23pm
    Old Silver Fox

    Please by all means, do support your comment with examples of how I am wrong.

    My above comments are NOT so called left wing bias, they are what business investors are discussing because of the wider impact -ve gearing has on the wider economy and other aspects of Bonny's uninformed political opinions that she put forward.

    My comments above are essentially ECONOMIC 'basics' which are espoused with my view points.

    Yes, the knowledge level is a tad higher than that which the Murdoch news dishes out... what a surprise... but OSF my comments above are merely high level business discussion points about the future economy of Australia without reference to the subjugation of Australia to the interference of FOREIGN megacorp in Australia's economy.

    It is clear though, that you are definitely BIAS and unable to acknowledge that certain wealth accumulators are not good for the overall economy, just as others add positively to it.... ie. production and manufacturing.

    You also seem to endorse FOREIGN megacorp control of Australia and its economy.... which suggests that you are essentially a NEO CON that is quite willing to sell out your country.
    Anonymous
    17th Jul 2015
    6:26pm
    Radish (F)
    You are correct. At that time the real estate industry had HUGE political influence. In hindsight, Keating was right, wasn't he, to TRY and get rid of it because as we look today, we can see the damage it has caused and will further caused to Australia's economic wellbeing.
    Bes
    16th Jul 2015
    2:28pm
    I was going to post but it looks like you guys have it covered!
    So the answer is.........NO GO JOE!!
    Instead of taxing us Joe how about helping us save..........cheap power from solar and wind farms maybe?
    OH! forgot about the pre election handshake for Party donations off the COAL Barons!
    Dave V
    16th Jul 2015
    3:06pm
    Solar and wind power is not cheap. It's only possible because the operators get paid huge subsidies by the Government - sorry, because you pay them huge subsidies.
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    9:01pm
    The Seven Dwarfs had a Coal Mine ! Then Snow White dropped in in a Hellycopter ! :-) :-)
    Strummer
    16th Jul 2015
    2:32pm
    While we have a government whose only agenda is getting re-elected nothing will change.
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    4:39pm
    jaker you are partly correct. I put all politicians into that category. We need less politics and more leadership.
    retroy
    17th Jul 2015
    2:56pm
    They are all the same, and would lie to their granny,(Is that the most heinous lie) if it got them re-elected.
    Patriot
    17th Jul 2015
    3:24pm
    retroy
    Even if this lie would guarantee that their Granny would be "Burned alive on the Stake".
    GREED, GREED, UNADULTERATED GREED
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    8:54pm
    Poor Dwanny ! :-(
    Tweety Pie .....
    Alexii
    16th Jul 2015
    4:02pm
    An increase to the GST is another blow against pensioners (and part pensioners), self-funded retirees (especially those with relaticvely small funds) and low income earners. But of course that would absolutely suit this mob in government - the rotten Bs.
    dougie
    16th Jul 2015
    4:44pm
    How intelligent are our politicians? Just because they do not want to seem to be the one who introduces increased taxes they will not even meet to discuss this matter.
    This of course gives the Federal Government the right to say "well we offered you the chance to increase your state income and you declined. Now you go and find the extra money you need."
    Whatever happens it should be seen that as we provide more assistance for whatever reason, and there are many good reasons, the cost on the Federation and the State will assuredly increase. Why not look at sensible steps to ensure continuance of our living standards.
    Then again who said politicians were particularly intelligent when it comes to forward thinking and planning. 3 or 4 years is their maximum thought bubble.
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    7:11pm
    dougie
    Unfortunately, your insinuation that increasing GST and making states pay for health and education is the "sensible thing to ensure continuance of our living standards", is not correct. In fact, the opposite would occur.

    OUR living standard would decrease substantially, as most ORDINARY people would have less money to spend, which means those small businesses (who employ most people) would not get as much money and therefore have to drop off employees or employ 457 visa holders. Either way, money stops circulating in the Australian economy (the visa holders send their money back home). Less money in the economy means that less taxes are paid and the govt. receives less money in their coffers.

    Now on to more detrimental effects, in that the poorer States (eg. Sth Aust) (those that do not generate a great deal of GST) will NOT be able to afford to maintain an adequate standard of Health and Education, as compared to the other States (eg. NSW). So, tell me WHY this will be good for Australia. These poorer States will become even poorer with less and less people working and living in them when they can shift to other States and ensure better services for themselves and their kids.

    Not only will we have the POOR paying more in GST and getting POORER, we will have States getting POORER and POORER do to this American Style, Rich take All, mentality.

    When YOUR party (Liberal Party) are in govt. with a total numbskull in charge of it, who has cocked up our country, all of a sudden, it is ALL politicians that are no good!

    Sorry, but the previous government (who I did not vote for first time round, as I am NOT a Labor voter per se) under RUDD (and followed by Gillard) did wonderful FORWARD thinking that went beyond 3 or 4 years. This leader put Australia as the BEST, yes BEST ECONOMY in the world, beating China, Russia, UK, EU, USA, etc during the worst of the GFC; Rudd's govt, had the LOWEST GOVT DEBT in the world; Rudd's govt, gave Australia a triple AAA credit rating for the first time ever; Rudd's govt, had the Aust.$ put in with the world currency for the first time ever; Rudd's govt, was able to provide services and benefits to those that needed it..... ALL WITHOUT THE NEED TO INCREASE GST.

    So dougie, do NOT tell me ALL politicians are the same because they ARE NOT!

    I give credit where credit was due and the previous government did wonders for Australia and with Murdoch's BLATANT abuse of his MEDIA POWERS, destroyed that, so his PUPPET could be put in to instigate Murdoch's view of where the wealth should go! He certainly does NOT think it should stay with the ordinary people, that is without any doubt whatsoever... always better in his and his fellow mega corps (foreign) pockets.
    dougie
    17th Jul 2015
    10:53am
    Mussitate,
    Why not read and digest what I had to write before you start to froth at the mouth. I gave a perfectly reasoned comment that this amongst other things should be discussed and look to forward planning of finances. I find that people tend to perceive that which they will not that which is written.
    retroy
    17th Jul 2015
    3:02pm
    Dougie.

    Mussi also did it to me so don't feel too bad !

    Socialists generally are not good listeners, and now it seems, not good at understanding things written down for them.
    Patriot
    17th Jul 2015
    3:29pm
    dougie/retroy,
    It would seem to me that mussie does not quite agree with what you're saying and therefore elects to elaborate on some points.
    Let's not start with criticising our "fellow Contributors" but educate them instead (if such is possible at all).
    WE HAVE MUCH BIGGER FISH TO FRY!!!
    Biddy
    16th Jul 2015
    5:22pm
    i think it would be something that should be discussed,taxes seem to be something they tip toe around and someone will always whinge and say this is not what we need,why is that the tax system works for multi national companies and also the big religious sects like the exclusive Bretheren and Hillsong that seem to get away with paying virtually nothing in tax,and politicians that rort their travelling expenses which the taxpayer picks up the tab,what tax is really fair ,and the rich and famous that move their money of shore just to keep themselves tax free ,so raising the Gst should be disgussed but saying that it may not be the only way of fixing our tax system but there must be,with so many beuracats where to start is the big question
    Biddy
    16th Jul 2015
    5:22pm
    i think it would be something that should be discussed,taxes seem to be something they tip toe around and someone will always whinge and say this is not what we need,why is that the tax system works for multi national companies and also the big religious sects like the exclusive Bretheren and Hillsong that seem to get away with paying virtually nothing in tax,and politicians that rort their travelling expenses which the taxpayer picks up the tab,what tax is really fair ,and the rich and famous that move their money of shore just to keep themselves tax free ,so raising the Gst should be disgussed but saying that it may not be the only way of fixing our tax system but there must be,with so many beuracats where to start is the big question
    LiveItUp
    16th Jul 2015
    6:16pm
    I'd support an increase in GST if I didn't have tax a tax on another tax as one does for example when buying a new car. It is just ridiculous paying stamp duty on the GST component of the total sale purchase price.

    We already have annual levies on property with land taxes so I don't support another levy on real estate.

    However any increase in GST will only further support the black market that is now flourishing already.
    Adrianus
    16th Jul 2015
    7:56pm
    Yes Bonny, I imagine there are many little businesses (hobbies) not registered for GST.
    retroy
    17th Jul 2015
    2:53pm
    Don't forget the luxury car tax Bonny.
    It is a tax paid by rich people when they want to spend their hard earned money on a better car.
    LiveItUp
    17th Jul 2015
    10:32pm
    Yes I bought a new car and I didn't consider it to be a luxury car but I had to pay the luxury car tax on the purchase price plus GST which was a tax upon another tax. The dealer did however bill me separately for all the extras so that I didn't have to pay the luxury tax on them which was good of him.

    16th Jul 2015
    6:46pm
    Sorry, about this very long blurb BUT it is really necessary for people to read what this GST is really about (I have extensive knowledge in this area):

    FACTS:
    GST is a disgustingly INEQUITABLE tax that taxes people who don't even have an income.... i.e. pensioners, unemployed, disabled.... at the same rate as those who have million dollar incomes. In proportion to income, the poor PAY hugely, whilst (once again) the RICH pay very little. When it was introduced, old man PACKER ('goanna'), came out supporting this tax after previously saying that NO new taxes were good for business which gives you some indication of WHO really benefits from GST.

    Additionally, it must be remembered that BUSINESS does NOT pay GST.... they merely collect GST for the government after deducting the GST that they themselves have paid and forward the balance to the govt. Basically (some exceptions), ONLY individual consumers pay GST.

    The concept that EDUCATION and HEALTH needs to be funded, so increase and widen GST is a gross firfy??!! This is NOT a valid argument.
    The argument should be that the FEDERAL government's economic management of Australia has been essentially GROSS MALFEASANCE and MISHANDLING.... i.e. a total cock up.
    *they have paid billions into 'border control' whilst allowing hundreds of thousands of 457visa entries which does nothing for Australia's economy, except destroy it;
    *they have poured money into foreign mining corporations (as well as giving them huge rebates which we pay, on water and power) which goes straight out of the country;
    *they have ignored Australian industry and placed vital orders with FOREIGN countries which actually costs more because it destroys Australia manufacturing future, employment, skills, etc AND sends OUR hard earned tax money overseas, instead of making Australia more vibrant and wealthy;
    *they have poured money into themselves, in the form of huge allowances for housing, travel, etc which are grossly overcharged;
    *they have closed down govt. industries which actually make money and sold off others;
    *they have removed Carbon Tax that the people were fully covered for with little or no effect;
    *they have poured money into out dated pollution spewers, such as the COAL industry;
    *they are still pouring OVER 100 BILLION into an NBN system that is substandard and already out of date, can not be updated and is HUGELY below par in speeds, reliability and efficiency - even 2nd world countries and some 3rd world countries have better systems... how embarrassing.
    * etc, etc

    NOW they are asking the poor and middle classes to pay even more to the STATES because the FEDERAL govt has acted WITHOUT good faith, adhered to malfeasant practices and grossly mismanaged the Australian Economy.

    Remember people... that CORPORATIONS may pay income tax BUT that this income tax is RECLAIMED by those corporations OWNERS/INVESTORS..... so the NET effect is that EVERY LITTLE is PAID into GOVT COFFERS. The elite wealthy individuals pay next to nothing in income tax, so their contribution is negligible.

    All of this VERIFIES that the BULK of tax comes from ORDINARY TAXPAYERS who are the ones that this government are saying, they can not afford, especially those most in need. These ORDINARY TAXPAYERS pay politicians wages, build roads, built bridges, built every bit of government infrastructure, pay for education, hospitals, services and benefits. ORDINARY TAXPAYERS are Australia's providers!!!

    THE NEXT PART OF THIS DISGUSTING SUGGESTION that the STATES MUST PAY FOR EDUCATION AND HEALTH, SO INCREASE GST and make the ORDINARY TAXPAYER PAY EVEN MORE, is also a despicable guise of deceit.

    THIS IS IMPORTANT:
    1. Obviously, if the States pay for Health & Education, then those states with less money will be further disadvantaged by substandard health and education and people who can afford to, will shift to other states.... further damaging the less wealthy states. Inequality and again mismanagement of Australia's overall economy, to benefit the wealthier of the states.
    2. If the Federal govt. DOESN'T have to pay out these huge sums to the States, then the Federal govt. has MORE money to mismanage and hand out to foreign corporations, etc... see above about their gross malfeasance and mismanagement of Australia's economy and budget.
    3. IF things are so tough..... then all the govt has to do is DECREASE funding to PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS in health and education. Those same institutions who do NOT pay taxes AND who MOST of the ORDINARY TAXPAYERS and THEIR CHILDREN cannot afford to attend. In other words, FUND PUBLIC health and education to bring to a higher level, WHERE ALL CAN ATTEND.

    NO, DO NOT GET ROPED INTO THINKING THAT WE N E E D TO PAY EVEN MORE of an INEQUITABLE tax in the form of GST because we do NOT. IT IS A CON which is being stroked by MURDOCH and other foreign organisations and mega corporations.... they don't pay anything let alone GST, so they want more of OUR taxpayer funded coffers for themselves and less (a lot less) for us.

    ASIDE (but relevant): The proposed TPP which that idiot Abbott has already signed (with little or no adjustments) actually gives control of our laws and country to FOREIGN mega corporations..... we can only HOPE that those in the SENATE don't turn into TRAITORS and endorse this despicable agreement.
    LiveItUp
    16th Jul 2015
    7:01pm
    Rubbish GST is a user pays system that is much more equitable than any other tax in Australia.
    Patriot
    16th Jul 2015
    7:02pm
    Mussitate
    Hear Yea !!!
    NEVER A TRUER WORD SPOKEN!!!
    Anonymous
    16th Jul 2015
    7:31pm
    Bonny

    Sorry, but please explain why businesses who USE goods and services, do NOT pay BUT the poor, disadvantaged and pensioners who do NOT earn an income, have to pay.

    Also please explain why GST paid by ordinary taxpayers, as compared to their INCOME, is a great deal more than those earning substantial incomes. Effectively, if you calculate the percentage of GST paid by ordinary taxpayers against their income to the wealthy against their income, you will find that the ORDINARY taxpayer is paying extraordinary amounts compared to the wealthy.... FACT!

    Not to forget, that with the use of corporations many of the wealthy associated with those corporations avoid substantial amounts of GST all together.... then there is the offshore stuff (Packer is good with that) which nullifies all GST.

    NOW, please explain how INCOME TAX is inequitable when it is one of the MOST EQUITABLE tax which grades the income tax rate based upon level of assessable income. The poor and low income tax earners pay less and the wealthy pay a lot more.... as follows:
    * NIL tax up to $18,200 (increased substantially from 6,000 to 18,200 by Labor);
    *18,200 to 37,000 19%;
    *37,000 to 80,000 32.5%;
    *80,000 to 18,000 37%; and
    *over 180,000 45%.
    It is extremely EQUITABLE and supports EQUAL contribution into the Govt. coffers - based upon assessable income earned. NOW if we can merely stop the routs (Super/Corporate) by the wealthy, they may even pay some of that tax!!!
    Alexii
    16th Jul 2015
    8:50pm
    Well written, Mussitate. I'm afraid that Bonnie will never understand the effect of a regressive taxation system on the lower income earners as compared to its much lesser effects upon higher income earners. Hey Bonnie, imagine if your income is really low and therefore you have a low propensity to save (most likely no savings at all as you live from week to week). What happens if out of that meagre income you now find that the tax on everything that you buy (your clothes, your food, your rent, your fares, etc) increases. You already are living hand to mouth, now with that bit more tax to pay you will have to go without some of what you previously were just managing to get. Ah well, a bit less food will keep the low income person nice and lean, won't it? Now think of the high income earner who has a high propensity to save - the only effect is that such a person may save just a little bit less but will still be able to consume all the same goodies as previously. Simplistic, I know, but correct.
    retroy
    17th Jul 2015
    2:38pm
    Muss. I don't think you know the definition of "equitable"
    Why is it fair and just to tax higher income earners at a higher % rate ?
    Perhaps because you Muss, and other socialists think it is a good idea.
    GST was designed to make people who spend more (read higher earners) pay more tax. Food is exempt Alexii!
    A country which has equitable tax rates is Hong Kong where after120000 HKD everyone pays 17%.
    Anonymous
    17th Jul 2015
    6:38pm
    retroy
    Lots of mixed up and disjointed comments which really make no sense, nor have sufficient relativity for me to respond.

    However, should you wish to continue with applying tags about people with different views to this grossly malfeasant and incompetent government, then I should be allowed the same courtesy.

    Your blatant NEO CON leanings are certainly screaming out to us and if anyone can be accused of NOT understanding the meaning of 'equitable' than you would definitely be at the forefront.

    PS... if you were to do the mathematics with the Income Tax rates, you would see that those EQUITABLE rates, in FLAT rate terms, would give the average taxpayer a FLAT tax rate of approximately 17% and those on incomes of $180,000 a FLAT tax rate of only 30% which is very reasonable. You must remember that the wealthy benefit in our society greatly, simply because they are wealthy and can have the best of what this country offers. In return, paying there share of tax to ensure that Australia and its people live comfortable is very little to pay for the benefits that they have!
    retroy
    18th Jul 2015
    3:42pm
    Poor muss
    Imagining I said things again.
    Perhaps you would allow me the same courtesy you request, when I try to help you by pointing out where you are wrong, or cannot understand the definition of the words you try to use.
    Even your nom de guerre could do with an fix, if you wanted to be relevant, being derived from Latin. mussitate -To talk indistinctly; to mutter, talk indistinctly; usually in a low voice
    No. leave it as it is, maybe you got that right.
    Anonymous
    19th Jul 2015
    12:53am
    retroy
    duh! I selected the name because of what it meant, as a fun thing, of course.

    Re my comment "should you wish to continue with applying tags about people with different views to this grossly malfeasant and incompetent government, then I should be allowed the same courtesy"... I then proceeded (tongue in cheek) to return your methodology and give you a very apt TAG. duh!

    It is not me dribbling, it is you not comprehending (or not wanting to), dearest.

    Also, I am and have been very NON combatant, so please do mellow out a bit. Otherwise, that 'other' side of me will prevail because I really, really do ENJOY a full scale slinging match.... it is so much fun..... so by all means come out and 'play', don't hold back.
    geomac
    16th Jul 2015
    7:52pm
    Frank
    You really do need to rein in your lib bias. An independent is a Labor stooge ? Madigan , Nick Xenaphon, Lambie or even the ex lib party guy who is now a lib democrat or whatever he got in on. Windsor, Oakshott and the Indi MP who took the seat from Mirabella were all Nationals or of that ilk.
    Are you telling me Abbott and Hockey have been told by the unions to rule out negative gearing, super and GST ? Thats what they have done in plain words so I wonder what the tax summit will have to discuss.
    " If you are an Independent then you are a Labor fence sitter or you have an axe to grind with the Coalition. We need to rid ourselves of the poor performers and those who lack the strength of character required. The Unions have become too powerful and skilled at shutting down discussion around real reform which is badly needed before Australia starts to fall behind. "
    Talking of poor performers chopper Bishop should resign as the worst speaker in memory IMO. From kerosene bishop to chopper bishop and no bright spot in between. At least she appears not to have any input into tax matters or any matters of significance for that matter. Really just an expensive puppet speaker in parliament.
    particolor
    16th Jul 2015
    8:21pm
    Put the GST up to 100% and just throw us the Crusts off each end of the loaf ! :-)
    Giles
    17th Jul 2015
    7:25am
    A higher rate of GST? A resounding 'Yes' provided lower income people are compensated for the cost of essentials and the scope isn't increased. I have a large self-managed super fund in pension phase, pay no income tax and, along with many others, GST is the main way I contribute financially and I'd be happy to pay more. An increase in the rate of GST is simple and immediate. Bring it on!
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    7:30am
    Butter My Crusts !! :-)
    mangomick
    17th Jul 2015
    7:44am
    Giles,Giles,Giles.If you were really that happy to pay more Tax you shouldn't have been squirreling all that money away for all those years in the first place . You would have been doing that to avoid paying PAYG tax. What has made you change your mind now all of a sudden? A bit hypocritical don't you think.
    Old Silver Fox
    17th Jul 2015
    11:57am
    Giles, if you've got that much to spare can I send you my bank account details so you can drop the extra tax in there - cutting out the middle man? Seriously, anyone who wants to increase tax needs to check his cranium to see where his brain has disappeared. If the muppets in politics could grasp logic then they would advocate for a decrease in spending - this would help more than increasing tax
    Abby
    17th Jul 2015
    12:38pm
    I agree with you Giles
    Some of the best welfare systems in the world have 20% + GST
    However I do think they should keep the current exemptions
    Old Silver Fox
    17th Jul 2015
    1:35pm
    Abby, Australia has a world class health system also. It's up there with the best. Don't compare us to the U.K. French or U.S.A. systems - I have lived under them and Australia is a mile in front AND it does it a lot cheaper than your spurious claim.
    mangomick
    17th Jul 2015
    1:47pm
    for a nation to try to tax itself into pros­per­ity is like a man stand­ing in a bucket and try­ing to lift him­self up by the han­dle.
    Anonymous
    17th Jul 2015
    7:00pm
    Old Silver Fox
    RE your comments to Abby about our health system - It may have been ONCE but it is no longer the case. We are heading towards the USA system faster than you care to admit.... the USA system of health was and still is a basket case, unless you are extremely wealthy.

    mangomick
    I actually like that quote! Very nice... hope you don't mind if I snaffle it!

    Abby
    read my comment below - to Radish (F). Your 20%+ statement is grotesque... sorry. Nice to hear from you otherwise, though.

    Giles
    how pleasing for you. "I earn heaps of $$$ but want to contribute". CRAP! Then go out and volunteer your knowledge and help to disadvantage YOUTH or something, to give something back. DO NOT support a tax that is WRONG for the economy and endows Australia people with a tax burden which does NOTHING to assist those less fortunate.

    GST is a LAZY tax imposed by incompetent governments. It does NOTHING to enhance productivity or genuine economic prosperity, it just rakes in money for which the poor and disadvantage pay the bulk of.
    mangomick
    17th Jul 2015
    7:24pm
    Mussitate. Think you can thank Winston Churchill for that one. I don't think he said it exactly word for word some editor probably polished it for him but over the years Churchill got the credit for saying it. Pretty true though. If politicians looked at cutting waste like helicopter rides to Party Bar-b-ques they wouldn't need to keep raising taxes.
    PlanB
    17th Jul 2015
    7:37am
    Trouble is with the GST everyone has to pay it even those with little or no income like so many of you stated. Especially if it is put on everything you buy even food
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    8:09am
    Its on Mud Cake ! When will they put it on Mud Pies ? :-)

    17th Jul 2015
    12:33pm
    It's time the States stood on their own too feet . They can spend knowing the other sites via the Feds will come to their rescue . Each State should set its own GST and stamp duty . We neeD more accountability at State level ..
    mangomick
    17th Jul 2015
    1:41pm
    Before World War II both Federal and State governments collected income tax. In 1942, in order to run the war effort, the federal government became the sole collector of income tax. It did this by passing laws which raised the federal tax rate and gave some of the proceeds back to the states on the condition they drop their income tax.So don't go on about States standing on their own two feet. Let the Federal Government give them back their fair share instead of trying to make out that the states are the ones to blame.
    retroy
    17th Jul 2015
    2:23pm
    Geo and Muss
    Really!
    In your haste to air your superior knowledge, you did not read what I wrote.
    At no time did I state GST was not a Fed tax, just that the states were beneficiaries, as they are, and have been from the start.
    geomac
    17th Jul 2015
    3:43pm
    retroy
    I refuted your claim that Hockey asked the states if they wanted more money from the GST. I did not imply that you said it was a state tax. I did state that as a federal tax it was up to Hockey to lead the charge , take ownership, if he wants to increase the rate on the GST.
    " etroy
    It is a federal tax and Hockey has to take ownership of the argument if he wants to increase it. No state has said they do not require more money. Hockey did not ask the question you suggested nor did all the states say no to a question that was not asked. "
    So as you should be able to now see I replied to your post correctly and accurately. No really ! about it.

    17th Jul 2015
    6:20pm
    I believe the GST should be raised. It is too low when compared to other countries.
    Anonymous
    17th Jul 2015
    6:46pm
    Radish (F)

    Oh! Bravo.... Let's base Australia on other countries who are INEQUITABLE and whereby the POOR and DISADVANTAGED live in poverty and get paid pittances for their work. The ELITE WEALTHY live in ostentatious amounts of wealth, having huge influence on government policies which continue to persecute the average taxpayer and ensure that these wealthy parasites do NOT contribute their share.

    By increasing and widening GST, you are ensuring that the EGALITARIAN standard of Australia is watered down, giving the wealthy even more wealth and power.

    PS.. Australia is one of the MOST EGALITARIAN nation in the world (this means that the wealth is spread out more evenly).
    YOU RADISH (F) are advocating that we POLARISE the wealth into the hands of a few..... take a look at the USA and see how well that went!!
    particolor
    17th Jul 2015
    7:10pm
    25% GST on Radishes ! :-)
    Adrianus
    17th Jul 2015
    7:18pm
    Radish, because it is so low it represents a sovereign risk. We need a more stable government revenue.
    Anonymous
    18th Jul 2015
    5:37pm
    Well, that is my opinion...everyone else is free to theirs as well :)
    Anonymous
    19th Jul 2015
    1:29am
    Frank
    GST is NOT a good tax for the economy, as it simply decreases the amount of money ORDINARY people have to spend and when that happens small businesses (who employ most of the people) have to let go staff or employ 457 visa holders.... neither is good for the economy.
    The 'circle' of money flow is simply diminished BECAUSE this inequitable tax is NOT based upon income earned and that is never any good for the well being of an economy. Look to the USA currently and see how well they are fairing with little or no spending by the ORDINARY American, the ONLY thing that has kept that nation afloat is the fact that their currency is the WORLD currency.... they simply print what they want and EXPORT their gross mismanagement of their economy and the troubles it brings, to the rest of the world, the result of which was the GFC (which is not finished quite yet).

    Additionally, it does nothing to encourage REAL economic strengtheners.

    HENCE, your statement that we need a more stable government revenue is totally askew ..... it actually causes more economic INstability. INCOME TAX does NOT do that, as it is based upon how much you earn!

    Radish (F)
    No one is questioning your right to an opinion. I find that statement somewhat bizarre as everybody has that right......that is what we are all HERE for.... to put forward our opinion and people discuss all 'opinions' and express further opinions. If you don't want that to happen, then don't express an opinion.

    On this occasion, I found your opinion on GST trite and without substance and hence proceeded to express MY opinion which contradicted your opinion but at least gave more substance and some reasons for that opinion.

    As you are so sensitive, I will not express any further opinions BUT I would like you to explain to me:

    WHY you would CONDEMN ordinary people to hardships JUST so we can align our tax collection with other countries, when those countries economies and spread of wealth are WELL BELOW ours AND whereby they have a substantial poverty and INEQUALITY which GST actively contributes to.
    These countries are totally different to Australia in every way, even the other Western Nations (UK & USA and even New Zealand).

    So, if you could expand your opinion to explain to me why Australia should align its GST with other countries, just so it matches?? It just does't make sense?? Unfortunately, that is the sought of inanity that dribbles from the likes of our current PM and Treasurer..... I consider YOU to be way more intelligent than those fools.
    Adrianus
    19th Jul 2015
    8:01am
    Mussitate,
    Please tell me which tax does not decrease the amount of money ORDINARY people have to spend???
    So you say GST causes small businesses to let go staff and employ 457 visa holders??? What rubbish. When GST was introduced unemployment dropped.
    Your argument against GST is a little shallow.
    What could be fairer than a tax that we all pay???
    Patriot
    19th Jul 2015
    8:10am
    Frank,
    Nothing FAIR about paying a TAX which impacts severely on your "Quality of Life".

    Taxing the FATCATS & lifting the TAX threshold will alleviate this burden on the "Oridnary People" whilst it does not (or barely) impact on the "Quality of Life" for those levied more taxes.

    Money is supposed to be a "TOOL" that works for whole communities.
    Unfortunately many look at money like a "Stamp Collection" with the different number on each note representing a "Missing Item" in their collection.
    THAT IS THE MECHANISM WHICH MAKES MONEY EVIL!!!

    Money is like water It needs to flow & Move.
    Once stagnant it DIES and looses its vitality.

    17th Jul 2015
    6:58pm
    GST is a LAZY tax imposed by incompetent governments.

    It does NOTHING to enhance productivity or genuine economic prosperity, it just rakes in money for which the poor and disadvantage pay the bulk of.
    LiveItUp
    17th Jul 2015
    10:27pm
    It is the fairest tax we have as it is a user pays system unlike a lot of our other taxes.
    mangomick
    18th Jul 2015
    7:59am
    That's BS. Take a tradie or a farmer. He might need tools for his hobby but claims he needs it for his trade and claims the GST back. Take a look at the flash 4X4 with all the bits on it.No GST paid there either Why does anyone who is a plumber or electrician need a4X4 with a winch ,bullbar etc to be a plumber in the city.And then there is all the little cash jobs they do so they don't have to declare that income so people can get out of paying GST.it's only user pay for the mugs. Put it on everything with no one being able to claim back the GST (I'm talking business and tradies and the rate could be a lot less.
    Adrianus
    18th Jul 2015
    8:34am
    It is about time our tax system did what it was intended to do.
    Raise revenue in a fair and consistent way.
    Grateful
    18th Jul 2015
    10:58am
    The GST is the laziest of all taxes, although, it certainly does serve a purpose. But, to increase it under present circumstances is clearly because the current government is trying to force the States into making that decision so it doesn't look like a Fed govt decision, i.e. breaking another promise.
    By withdrawing $80 million from the Fed budget for health and education and forcing that on to the States, has created a huge problem for the States.
    So, it's not only a "lazy" tax, but, the current discussion about raising it is nothing but devious bastardry on behalf of the P.M. and the Treasurer who have no other ideas, having emphatically dismissed any discussion on such obvious other means at their disposal, but, which would hit themselves and their major supporters, and we can't have that can we?
    And while we have the News and Murdoch dictating our media with incredible headlines that we saw last week, how can we possibly have legitimate discussion about any potentially politically sensitive changes to anything?? Murdoch and News have made every political party (remember they have also crucified the Libs when it suited him!!!) too scared to say or do anything. Where is "democracy" when we have such exceptionally powerful and self interested domination of our media??? THAT'S where we should start!!!!
    Adrianus
    18th Jul 2015
    1:47pm
    So now we appraise a tax on how vigorous and energetic it is?
    Get your facts right Grateful. It was $80billion not $80million. Another booby trap set for the incoming government.
    Bill Shorten was recently asked if he would go ahead with the $80b expenditure. After using it for all it was worth in Abbotts first 18 months as PM, he admitted emphatically NO he would not.
    Try to keep up. The media no longer dictates to the government. That horrible 6 years of Rudd/Gillard/Rudd is over now.
    Patriot
    18th Jul 2015
    1:59pm
    Grateful
    INDEED, Where is the Democracy as "Set-Out" in the Australian Constitution.
    We are RULED by a DICTATORSHIP which takes their orders from the INTERNATIONAL CONGLOMERATES in aid of the enforcement of a "One-World-Government".
    A OWG which will be a DICTATORSHIP ruled by THE INTERNATIONAL BANKSTERS with political parties enforcing their RULINGs.

    AUSTRALIA HAS BEEN STOLEN AWAY FROM THE AUSTRALIANS AND IS BEING "SOLD OUT" TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER!!!
    mangomick
    18th Jul 2015
    2:07pm
    That's why I favour Malcolm Turnbull over Abbott any day. At least Turnbull has the nous to know that when it comes to Tax reform it needs a long term bipartisan approach. That means coming to a concensus and not applying the same bully boy approach that some Abbott was reported to have used when he was beaten in the election for the role of student President some years ago.Abbott doesn't have those skills whereas Turnbull certainly does and to some degree so does Shorten. Even though I think Shorten lacks Prime Ministerial qualities I'd like to think that he could sit down with Turnbull and come up with a long term bi-partisan overhaul of the complete taxation system which would be to the benefit of all.
    Patriot
    18th Jul 2015
    3:25pm
    mangomick
    I agree that Malcolm has more CLASS in his "Left Foot Little Toe" that Tony & Joe have collectively in their entire bodies.
    He also is a Highly Intelligent individual with an "Effective & Practical" IQ FAR exceeding the SUM of Tony's & Joe's.
    T & J are "Just following Orders from their Internationalists Masters".
    Just "Gun Fodder" that's all they're good for!

    MY only problem with Malcolm is that he "Is/was a Banker & IS a very wealthy Person" in his own right.
    It's very difficult to imagine what it is like grovelling "in the Mud" when you have never been there for any extend of time or not at all!

    Would he be "WILLING & ABLE" to change NLP policies away from the currently disastrous direction, I really would not like to guess.
    Would he have the Integrity, guts & courage to, ONCE AGAIN, adhere to the Australian Constitution and return democracy to Australia - I also do not know.
    Malcolm is in favour of a Republic and, WHILST I personally have not much love for the "Old Lady" in the UK, I WOULD HATE THE THOUGHT OF a new Aust. Constitution being "written & Implemented" with the current "MOB of CRIMINALS" in charge in Canberra ??? FRIGHTENING TO THINK!!!!!

    Shorten certainly has much more class & Imagination than the T & J team. He is like just about all of them an opportunist and if the rest are CROOCKs, why should he miss out. A deplorable but - to some extend - understandable attitude. THEY ARE ALL INTO IT!!!!
    OPPORTUNITY CREATES THE THIEF and we, as Australians, just have not been diligent enough to keep the BASTARDS HONEST.

    As for restoring the Australian democracy I personally believe that this action is becoming very difficult to successfully implement without a "Major Revolt" of the Australian people. The further we move away, the more difficult this will become.

    As an IMPORT some 45 years ago, I certainly DEPLORE & MOURN that Australia, which was once the MOST FREE & LOWEST TAXED nation on the planet with the SMALLEST & MOST EFFICIENT PUBLIC SERVICE, has been turned into the "PILE of ASHES" that it currently is.
    All this because of UNADULTERATED GREED, DECEIT & PURPOSELY MISMANAGEMENT!
    particolor
    18th Jul 2015
    3:47pm
    AND NO CHIPS ! :-(
    mangomick
    18th Jul 2015
    4:08pm
    "Patriot... The fact that Turnbull is wealthy in his own right hopefully means that he doesn't have to succumb to bribes and being a Merchant banker you would hope that he also has some economic nous or at least can balance the books. At least he isn't a career politician who is in the job, just for the lurks and perks .
    Patriot
    18th Jul 2015
    6:34pm
    mangomick
    Agree with the Theory.
    However the praticals - unfortunately - my "Real Life" observations suggest that this theory seldom "Stacks Up" and is supported by "The Raw Facts".

    I WOULD LOVE TO BE PROVEN WRONG!

    17th Jul 2015
    7:03pm
    I will also repeat mangomick comment above (responding to Giles's comment)

    "for a nation to try to tax itself into pros­per­ity is like a man stand­ing in a bucket and try­ing to lift him­self up by the handle"

    Because it is very apt!
    Abby
    18th Jul 2015
    1:38pm
    Good to see you back Mussi :)

    But raising the GST whilst keeping the current exemptions and decreasing the size of our Government is the way to go.
    Patriot
    18th Jul 2015
    1:44pm
    Abby
    GST is extremely punitive on those who can least afford to "Pay more Tax".
    For Instance/example:
    When you're making $500.00 net per week, a $50.00 GST contribution becomes a matter of "Life & Death". Especially when you have kids.
    When you're making $5000.00 per week net, $500.00 in GST becomes "just another annoying payment". However, it does NOT INTERFERE with your ESSENTIALS OF LIFE in any way !!!
    Adrianus
    18th Jul 2015
    1:51pm
    When you have kids and are making $500 per week your welfare is enormous. When you earn $5,000 per week you don't get any welfare. I recall meeting a couple who were getting more welfare than dad's full time PS wage.
    Patriot
    18th Jul 2015
    3:30pm
    Frank
    As usual, your statement is Totally unqualified and Emotive.
    FACTS rather that WAR CRIES !!!!!!!
    Patriot
    18th Jul 2015
    3:31pm
    Muss,
    Agree with Abby,
    Good to see you back and keep some of them informed & others honest!
    retroy
    18th Jul 2015
    3:53pm
    Well muss, while I have been critical of you, I must commend you for recognising Mangomick's comment and repeating it.
    It is especially significant as it was first made by an outstanding conservative politician, who was tipped out of office by people who wanted to impose higher and inequitable tax on the rich.
    Anonymous
    19th Jul 2015
    1:53am
    Abby

    I'm all for EFFICIENT government.... size is immaterial. If they are providing what the people need and want, AND are doing it efficiently, then that is good enough.

    SMALL underfunded governments simply means that the people who pay most of the taxes, get less and less benefits and services and the country gets less and less infrastructure and there is less control by the government of the economy, in relation to WEALTH DISTRIBUTION.

    THIS IS WHY:

    Foreign Mega Corporations, want to be able to take over things like electricity, gas, water, airports, health insurance, hospitals, education. Monopolies and HUGE money earners. If they can't own them they MANAGE them charging huge amounts or LEASE them for a pittance. In Australia we have some of the biggest (foreign) Mega Corporations operating our Water Corporations for huge sums of money; taking over other monopoly utilities; owning/leasing OUR airports and simply raking in the money....nobody even knows WHO owns the airports because they are PRIVATE corporate partnerships (Howard flogged them to these 'secret' owners.... could be the bloody dictators and founders of ISIS.... Saudi Arabia.... for all we know).

    The UK has even handed over its nuclear weapon control to a massive Super Corporation (from memory I think their name is Serco.... a quiet but lethal OWNER of much of the UK and there control of Australia and its public facilities is GROWING.

    Eventually, ALL the money earning is in the hands of FOREIGN mega corporations and the only money available to Australia to provide infrastructure, services, benefits are from income tax and increasing (continually) GST.

    THIS is what DECREASING the SIZE of the GOVERNMENT means..... selling OFF your HERITAGE to SUPER corporations who then have the power to control OUR country and OUR economy.

    So NO, I do NOT think it is a good idea.
    Patriot
    19th Jul 2015
    7:37am
    Mussitate
    Once Again --- SO RIGHT.
    The sooner we - collectively - understand this - the Sooner& Easier these matters will be resolved.
    RETURN AUSTRALIA BACK TO THE PEOPLE !!!
    Adrianus
    19th Jul 2015
    7:40am
    Yes Patriot lets not talk about that because it makes your argument implausible.
    Patriot
    19th Jul 2015
    7:43am
    Frank,
    "Let's not talk about . . " WHAT???
    Returning Australia to the Australian Worker & TaxPayer??????

    What about my argument is implausible??? Elaborate please!
    Adrianus
    19th Jul 2015
    8:14am
    Even better ha ha ha!!! let's pretend we know nothing now, ha ha ha!!!
    You crack me up. Thanks for the laugh, I'm off to the markets :)
    particolor
    19th Jul 2015
    2:54pm
    This little Piggy went to Market !:-)
    But this little Piggy stayed Home :-(
    Patriot
    19th Jul 2015
    4:18pm
    Frank
    Once again, You're not responding to my question !?!?!?
    Your usual tactic frank - Just some wild remarks without substance!
    Giles
    18th Jul 2015
    4:03pm
    The comment " . . go out and volunteer your knowledge and help to (sic) disadvantage . ." was a bit unfair as you don't know how much my wife and I contribute in cash and in voluntary service. It's significant.

    Many of you are concerned about the less well off being more heavily taxed. This must not happen and there are various ways in which they can be protected. However, protection should be kept to the essentials in life and not extend to a second TV, extra international holidays and the like. [We didn't have a TV for the first six months of life in Oz; then we bought a tiny set for $10.]

    While I think GST should have had a wider base initially, I don't think now is the time to widen that base unless there are unquestionable anomalies (personally imported goods, perhaps?). It would be too difficult politically. A straight increase to something above 10 per cent would bring us more in line with the rest of the world - and would be so simple.

    The problem is that we have got used to a wide range of services provided by government. We can fund these by tax or by borrowing as in Greece. I just hope that the Libs and Labor can talk through the issues with the rancour that appears in blogs such as this - and without politically motivated exclusion of any particular tax - and come to agreement on the best way to pay our way.
    Anonymous
    19th Jul 2015
    2:27am
    Giles

    First point noted.

    However, NO, GST should NOT be increased, at all. Besides NOT being good for Ordinary and disadvantaged Australians OR the economy, it reflects a LOT that is treasonous about this current government.

    Abbott has been advertising that Australia is UP FOR SALE and has proceeded to surpass Howard in flogging off Australian Govt. MONEY EARNING ENTERPRISES to FOREIGN PRIVATE CONCERNS.... if you see my comment directly above to Abby which gives details of this.

    Abbott is instigating the transfer of OUR national assets to Foreign MegaCorps and calling it INVESTMENT. It puts our government in a position whereby the Govt NO longer owns or controls ANY income earning enterprise and have NO means of controlling the economy because they have no money and no control over fundamental industries of this nation. Nor are they in a position to counter the political and economic POWER that these Foreign MegaCorps wield.

    The TPP that Abbott has signed but not ratified as yet, takes a step further and gives Foreign MegaCorps (particularly USA megacorps) unbelievable power over Australia's SOVEREIGNTY.....REMOVING our ability to even control our own laws, let alone our economy. If we upset any of the USA megacorps PROFIT making activities in Australia by passing or having laws that inhibit their activities, then we are taken to a 'special' USA controlled hearing who preside over and render judgement on the penalties AND payment of lost profits. Ie. Smoking, Environmental controls, Corporate competition laws, government enterprises, etc.

    This SPIRAL down has started when this govt can't even manage their budget and need to RAISE inequitable taxes such as GST which is a burden on the nation and the ORDINARY people and eventually causes a spiralling down of the economy.

    IF we allow them to simply MILK the people, they will continue to SELL OUT Australia and simply fill their own pockets, at FULL THROTTLE..... I call that TREASON by the way. STOP their FUNDS and hopefully this will SLOW down their SELL OFF and non signing of the TPP and we can get back to a SANER and less treasonous govt... if you can call them that.

    This coming from a once Liberal voter!
    Abby
    19th Jul 2015
    6:13am
    The "SELL OFFf" began in 1988

    with Paul Keating selling his Piggery to Indonesia.
    Patriot
    19th Jul 2015
    7:35am
    Mussitate
    TREASON IS THE RIGHT WORD !!!!!
    Giles
    18th Jul 2015
    4:05pm
    I meant "withOUT the rancour . . ." of course!
    mangomick
    18th Jul 2015
    9:40pm
    Well that's never going to happen while Abbott is leading the LNP.There is some good people on both sides of politics but Abbotts bully boy tactics, Pynes theatrics and Bronwyn Bishops antagonist performance in the speakers position is just creating a resentment which will prevent any form of bipartisanship for many years to come.
    particolor
    18th Jul 2015
    9:48pm
    There's something Rancid in Canberra ! :-)
    Anonymous
    19th Jul 2015
    2:29am
    mangomick

    I agree with your comments. However, if you read the above, it is surely the WORST thing for Australia to allow this government to MILK and penalise the ordinary people for their own FAILURES, so that they can continue to SELL OFF our heritage and our nation.
    Anonymous
    19th Jul 2015
    2:34am
    particolor

    Mate, you are so bloody right about that!
    Patriot
    19th Jul 2015
    7:31am
    Mussitate
    Absolutely 100% correct!
    The Bas***ds are SELLING US OUT KNOWINGLY!!!

    19th Jul 2015
    3:43pm
    The Key government has been elected for a third term. The economy is powering ahead.

    http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/three-things-that-make-new-zealand-better/story-e6frflo9-1227306437611

    They raised the gst to 15% and dropped the top marginal rate to 33%. Here in Australia it is 49%.
    Adrianus
    19th Jul 2015
    3:51pm
    A better way to soften the property market negative gearing perceived issue.
    Anonymous
    19th Jul 2015
    3:57pm
    Getting all the States to agree is the problem Frank.
    Adrianus
    19th Jul 2015
    4:14pm
    I say have a captains pick. Go to the election with it Radish.
    particolor
    19th Jul 2015
    5:56pm
    They are going to the election with a lot of stuff Frank ! I hope Santa has enough room in His sack for it ? ! :-)
    Anonymous
    19th Jul 2015
    7:00pm
    I dont think that will get up Frank...it has to be agreed to by the States...dont think it can be an election issue...but I stand to be corrected.
    particolor
    19th Jul 2015
    7:06pm
    I wish they would put the Book of Democracy on the table and READ IT !!
    Patriot
    19th Jul 2015
    8:12pm
    particolor
    I just don't think that suggestion will "Get Up" somehow.
    May be worth a try to send them a copy of the Australian Constitution though. After all, THEY have made sure that it is NOT taught in our schools.
    Then, when the final "time of reckoning" arrives, they can never say that they did not know about this document and their duties as outlined in it!
    Adrianus
    20th Jul 2015
    7:58am
    The government is soon to release a new paper on taxation reform which will possibly include lowering of the marginal rates. Guess what will facilitate that?
    particolor
    20th Jul 2015
    9:13am
    Um ? Santa couldn't get on His flight ! Baggage Overweight ! :-)
    geomac
    20th Jul 2015
    11:38pm
    Radish you do realise we have progressive tax which means the top rate is not applied to the total income.
    $0-$18,200 0% Nil
    $18,201- $37,000 19% 19 cents for each $1 over $18,200
    $37,001-$80,000 32.5% $3,572 plus 32.5 cents for each dollar over $37,000
    $80,001-$180,000 37% $17,547 plus 37 cents for each dollar over $80,000
    $180,001 and above 47%* $54,547 plus 47* cents for each dollar over $180,000
    Adrianus
    21st Jul 2015
    8:16am
    A rather strange post geo?
    Marginal rates in NZ are;
    Income up to $14000, taxed at 10.5%
    Income over $14000 and up to $48000, taxed at 17.5%
    Income over $48000 and up to $70000, taxed at 30%
    Remaining income over $70000, taxed at 33%.
    Therefor on an income of $75,000 the tax would be $15,670.
    While in Australia it would be $17,422.
    Low income earners in Australia by comparison are treated very well.
    geomac
    22nd Jul 2015
    6:23pm
    Frank
    I was making the point that a high income earner does not pay the higher tax rate on all dollars of income.
    " Radish you do realise we have progressive tax which means the top rate is not applied to the total income. "
    So tell me Frank why you consider it a strange post.
    Adrianus
    22nd Jul 2015
    7:40pm
    Because Radish knows that and said as much in the post.
    "They raised the gst to 15% and dropped the top marginal rate to 33%. Here in Australia it is 49%. "
    buby
    19th Jul 2015
    10:24pm
    REally MR. hockey what you really need to do is to cut back on those cigars mate and you'd be saving a fortune. Cut back on your diet that would help too. Instead of attacking the disable and older ppl in this country.?????
    particolor
    20th Jul 2015
    9:07am
    If I get any Skinnier they will use Me for a Tomato Stake !! :-(
    buby
    26th Jul 2015
    12:40pm
    Particolor are you trolling, under a disguised name?
    particolor
    26th Jul 2015
    12:52pm
    AH NO !! Not another Troll Hunter ? :-)
    Not Senile Yet!
    20th Jul 2015
    2:32am
    Fix the Bl£"£"£" Super inequity First and foremost you bunch of Fools!!!
    It is nothing short of arrogance to increase any tax while subsidising way too much into Super!!!!
    Simply reduce the amounts allowed in each year and get rid of the Salary Sacrifice for Super altogether!!!!
    Return to not Taxing any Super......including interest.....based on no access till retirement age!!!
    Only exceptions should be on medical grounds.....ie forced early retirement......but still be tax free!!!
    As for the GST....leave it alone!!!!
    Want to Balance the budget......stop flying around overseas,,,,,and locally......stop abusing the MP's expense accounts.....and make all Companies who operate in Australia pay a minimum of 20% tax for the issue of an ABN Number......no tax paid....revoke the ABN.
    Not rocket science you guys!!!!
    particolor
    20th Jul 2015
    9:10am
    AGREE ! :-) Tick...
    LiveItUp
    20th Jul 2015
    11:10am
    There is nothing wrong with the current super system. Unlike age pensioners these self funded people who use their super for retirement are not a burden on the public purse. There are already restrictions in place on how much you can put into super each year and reducing them further would only put the burden back on the public purse when people retire.
    Adrianus
    20th Jul 2015
    11:20am
    Reducing the amount of tax paid by companies to just 20% without recouping from other sources would place too much of a burden on the budget.
    particolor
    20th Jul 2015
    5:28pm
    And cause an Overpowering amount of Glee to the Companies ! :-)
    LiveItUp
    20th Jul 2015
    7:51pm
    My super fund has an ABN and pays no tax as it's in the pension phase. A 20% tax would make it not worthwhile.

    I also agree with Frank about reducing the tax paid by companies to 20%.
    Adrianus
    21st Jul 2015
    8:40am
    Yes Bonny, when you consider that the biggest 12 companies pay 49% of our tax revenue. One would not think they paid any tax if you believed many posters on here. In saying that I can understand why Not Senile Yet thinks the same.
    Multi Nationals like Macdonalds route money to "tax havens" or countries with a lower tax regime. Given that we compete with these countries to tax these multinationals, particularly the ones operating in cyberspace, do we want to make life easier or harder for our competitors??? It's time Australia updated it's tax system.
    It's also time to rid ourselves of gatekeeping unions which stand in the way of the tax dollars going through to the ATO and into our economy.
    particolor
    21st Jul 2015
    1:49pm
    Do You really want an answer to That ?
    So there's a Troll on the Bridge Ay ? :-) :-)
    Toss the ALPite in the Drink !! :-)
    buby
    26th Jul 2015
    12:42pm
    Trouble is i'm sure the fools know that, but they don't want to go down that road i'm sure NOTsenileYet!!!
    buby
    26th Jul 2015
    12:59pm
    But i so totally agree with you NOt Senile Yet :)
    Teddyboy.
    20th Jul 2015
    11:30am
    Deal with family trusts, negative gearing and tax rorts by the very wealthy and multinationals, and exemptions from tax on churches, some of whom are simply businesses' making millionaires of some smooth tongued hypocrites and then come back and have a discussion about GST. Oops sorry. You won't need to.
    particolor
    20th Jul 2015
    5:32pm
    That's bound to OFFEND ! :-(
    Anonymous
    23rd Jul 2015
    12:35am
    Teddyboy

    Brilliant!