$7 GP co-payment could bypass parliament

Companies have been asked to incorporate the $7 GP co-payment into products.

An email from The Federal Government to medical software companies, instructing them to incorporate the $7 GP fee into their products, has signalled the intention to implement the fee, with or without parliamentary approval.

The co-payment, which is yet to be considered by parliament, is expected to meet a swift defeat in the Senate, with Labor, Greens and the key Palmer United Party crossbenchers all set to vote against it.

The Federal Government recently reintroduced the indexation of the petrol on excise via regulation, and Health Minister Peter Dutton has previously refused to rule out introducing the $7 GP fee in this way.

“The Australian Government Department of Human Services (Human Services) anticipates implementing the Patient Contribution Budget Measure from 1 July 2015,” the email says.

Read more from the Herald Sun.


Opinion: Fee will find a way through

The Federal Government’s email to medical software providers has signalled its intention to push through the $7 GP co-payment.

The process of changing software to accommodate such a complicated fee will cost software providers millions of dollars, and will require the whole seven months provided to make such changes. With this in mind, it’s unlikely the Federal Government would instruct the software providers to prepare for the $7 GP co-payment unless they were confident that the fee will be introduced.

At a time when the Labor opposition has reached its highest polling result since April 2010, it’s difficult to imagine how the introduction of the $7 GP fee will have a positive effect for the Coalition. The latest two-party preferred Roy Morgan poll has the Opposition 9 per cent ahead of the Coalition, with 54.5 per cent of the vote, compared with 45.5 per cent. If introduced, I expect this gap will widen even further.

What do you think? Will the Federal Government try to bypass the Senate and push through the $7 GP fee via regulation? Do they have the right to push through such a fee? Will you reduce the number of visits to your GP if the $7 co-payment is introduced?





    COMMENTS

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    Mamacrystal
    13th Nov 2014
    10:34am
    Tell me again please.....how many sleeps to the next federal election??
    Drew
    13th Nov 2014
    10:38am
    A good 600 sleeps to go...
    Jen
    13th Nov 2014
    1:36pm
    The way Australia has changed in little over a year, I hope we still have the right to vote in 600 sleeps.
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    2:58pm
    Yes !! Why not ? And Shove 10 Bucks a Week on the Power Bill while Yer AT IT !!
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    9:30pm
    The 7 Bucks doesn't worry Me ! IF it goes to the right place !!
    Dotty
    14th Nov 2014
    2:50pm
    Its unbelie
    vable as to how Mr Tony Abbott has gotten around some of these moves ! He is a sneaky low life and has no compassion for those on an aged Pension let alone those of low income's that like pensioners only just manage to suvive !
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    3:37pm
    597 now Mama !!
    Adrianus
    16th Nov 2014
    3:53pm
    Where would you like to see the $7 go to parti?
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    8:21pm
    Well I certainly don't see it Plugging any Holes in any Budget ?? 2 Bucks to the Doc and 7 Bucks to a Multinational Drug Company ??? There's no Change for Joe ???
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    8:25pm
    ERR ? Make that 5 Bucks ! Dr Jeckle got the other 2 Bucks !!
    Adrianus
    16th Nov 2014
    8:29pm
    Yes, but it slows government spending because people will get healthier. So you would like to see some of it going back to other areas of the budget rather than on research which has the potential to reduce the need for GP visits?
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    8:42pm
    Now lets work this out shall we ? With about 10 % of the population going to the Doctor Daily That's about 11,000,000 Bucks a Day ! That's a loota Loot ?? Are You sure it going to Research ?? What are they working on ?? A safe Escape Rocket to Pluto for Pollies when the Planet starts to Cook ??
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    8:55pm
    I like the Bloke at the bottom here !! Screaming His tits off about Whitlam ?? He must have had a Terrible Sunday Lunch ? And it gave Him a Belly Ache ??
    Brissiegirl
    13th Nov 2014
    10:51am
    I don't want Labor - ever again. Union cronies, lying, back-stabbing, economic vandalism, scandals involving both Shorten and Gillard. And that's without the stories about Albanese, Plibersek and all the corruption in NSW. We were supposed to get a government that meant what it said and does what it said. That is why the two major parties are gradually sinking into irrelevance and the Senate will soon be comprised of independents whose solid and demonstrable paid job is to stick to their pre-election commitments. The "major" parties and the wacky minority Green politicians are in slow decline.
    Rob
    13th Nov 2014
    3:06pm
    You were going alright Brissiegirl until you mentioned the Independents are doing a solid and demonstrable job. Palmer United wracked by infighting and Muir unable to string two words together. The more you see of most of the independents is that are puppets to the back room boys and girls.
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    6:01pm
    You're right Rob, let's face it the Independents are either labor who have changed their name or simply lobbyists. We will soon see how much of a basket case exists in Victoria.
    Paddles
    13th Nov 2014
    10:19pm
    What we desperately need is a major review of the electoral voting system, particularly as it applies to the Senate.

    We currently have one Senator who received only one half of one percent (0.5%) of the popular vote yet gained a seat. Ludicrous doesn't cover a situation like this and we are stuck with this moron for another six years. Given the system, allied with the average voter mentality, he may yet gain a second term.
    Ruthie
    14th Nov 2014
    9:14am
    You have a very short memory. Who instigated the major reforms of this nation? Labor!! Did you even bother to watch Whitlam's memorial service? The shots of Abbott and his cronies, who were indifferent to the listing and celebration of th reforms instigated by Gough - too many to mention here. All Abbott and his mob do is try to wreck reforms introduced by Labor, while pandering to their rich mates. Why not go after those that avoid paying their fair share of taxation? Power to the people. Kick this mob out at the next election! Head in the sand, Abbott is only left with his suppository of wisdom issuing from his rear end!
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    9:19am
    Paddles, the AEC is having a review now. I hope it is sorted by the next election. One of the AEC's activities is to update the roll and when doing this they discovered an Auburn PO box had 21 people living in it.
    particolor
    14th Nov 2014
    10:15am
    I wonder if they can find some more PO Boxes to live in for the 25,000 odd coming next year ??
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    10:33am
    A very crowded house!

    ALP records obtained by Fairfax Media reveal that between December 2013 and September this year, up to 21 branch members listed PO Box 1158, Auburn, as their place of residence.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/crowded-house-the-post-office-box-shared-by-21-alp-members-20141111-11jkrf.html#ixzz3IzijuftR

    I think in fairness it was one of the larger boxes. wt ???
    particolor
    14th Nov 2014
    10:45am
    Only 8 family's to the Box Please !! No Pushing !! Its a Big Country, Plenty of Room !!
    Bes
    15th Nov 2014
    9:37am
    It would seem that any politician who's beliefs and work ethic are overshadowed by the inability to smart speak. We vote for personalities regardless of party history.
    I would vote for someone who was suffering from being deaf and dumb as long as they did what they promised.
    We vote for smiles, suits and suave. Pictures taken with children and workers to portray what isn't really the truth.
    Australia is plagued by professional politicians, who we and (our kids) are forced to pay long after they have (supposedly) retired, withdrawn their 'super' and enjoy the perks and gold passes bestowed upon themselves. They work for themselves, their party and Australia with the knowledge that whatever mistakes are made, there is no recrimination against them. And they know that after 4 years they stand the chance of another go! Time for change!
    Abby
    18th Nov 2014
    6:46am
    Yes Bes
    The politicians are like our Royalty
    Auction Girl
    13th Nov 2014
    11:03am
    It will be the Sustainable Population Party for me. I am over the 2 party ball passing. No matter where I am or who I speak to it always invariably arises in the conversation the anger at our pollie "gangsters". We need more with the autonomy of Kelvin Thompson (ALP unfortunately but the man has the guts to say the right things) together with MANY good independants that are NOT bound to party lines OR their big mates behind the scenes backers. Only 600 more sleeps - God help us in the mean time.
    Blossom
    13th Nov 2014
    11:03am
    If they do, won't it be illegal to do so?
    Many GPs already charge a gap if you don't have a health card. I am being penalised because I have too much in Super. Honestly why did I save so hard?
    KSS
    13th Nov 2014
    1:04pm
    "I am being penalised because I have too much in Super". Congratulations for taking responsibility for your retirement funding and not expecting to rely on the Government pension. That is exactly what we should all have done/be doing. Health cards and the like are meant for those who truly need them. They were not ever meant for universal consumption. Therefore you are not being penalised over anything.
    Rob
    13th Nov 2014
    3:07pm
    Exactly KSS
    wendylou
    13th Nov 2014
    3:39pm
    Not everyone had the opportunity to have a super fund way back, especially women
    I was not eligible for super while I worked in an office job it only was only available to executive staff It was only in my last 15 years of working that I received super
    In my earlier years it was not spoken about generally, so I had no idea about it
    Jen
    13th Nov 2014
    5:03pm
    Exactly wendylou.

    I was in the same situation. As were many people, mostly women.
    PCC
    14th Nov 2014
    10:56am
    I disagree with the comment that superannuation was not available way back. I took out an AMP policy in the early 70's. I had to close out of this because I was in the Defence Forces and policy dictated that we could only contribute to one super fund which was DFRDB. As is usually the case if contributions are not compulsory then people do not put themselves out. I believe the implementation of universal superannuation was a great achievement by the Labor govt, but superannuation was available to all in other ways.
    particolor
    22nd Nov 2014
    1:47pm
    Si did I ! But had to close the AMP Policy (to buy a car as there is NO Public Transport here ????) When Jack Boots Jon made things tough !
    Adrianus
    22nd Nov 2014
    2:09pm
    The concept of forced retirement savings has been around for more than 200 years. A surprising number of people don't see it as a worthwhile objective to save for old age. That is why it was forced on us.
    Simo
    13th Nov 2014
    11:04am
    No they DO NOT HAVE the RIGHT to by-pass the Senate if so why have a SENATE , it is about time the Governor General came into this and Made the Present ruling Government toe the Line by the Constitution of this Country NOT think thy can simply act like Dictators.
    Kato
    13th Nov 2014
    12:05pm
    Bill Shortman has to grow some testicles and lead from the front.
    Polly Esther
    13th Nov 2014
    12:30pm
    the usual requirement for testicles is to first of all be a man.
    Kato
    13th Nov 2014
    1:33pm
    Doc Ill leave that for you to check' being medical and all that you know.
    japoli
    13th Nov 2014
    2:34pm
    I agree. Sack Tony like they did Gough. Its the least that can be done for the Australian people.
    Rob
    13th Nov 2014
    3:10pm
    Japoli you don't talk for me and I'm not sure where you get the view that the majority would support your view. I certainly don't get a view that the majority want a return to the incompetence of a labor government.

    The ones complaining about the Liberals are one you would expect too.
    donnis
    13th Nov 2014
    11:08am
    The Coalition is showing its clear contempt of the Parliament and the electorate...it surely has a death wish.
    Donnis
    Rock
    13th Nov 2014
    11:20am
    They pushed through the increase in fuel so YES they push this through too
    Pass the Ductape
    13th Nov 2014
    11:50am
    A YES from me as well!
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    3:13pm
    The Fuel now the Doctor ?? Now I'll have to Hobble 6 Miles to the Doctors and back ??
    Supernan
    13th Nov 2014
    11:48am
    Apparently they can do this & probably will. Because they dont care what we think. They only care for what the wealthy business people want. Labor is not perfect - what organisation is ? Take any 100 people & a few be flawed. But at least Labor's aim is always to improve the conditions for the majority. The Greens aim is to improve the environment. The current Government - which everyone seems to forget is an uneasy mix of 2 parties - is all about pandering to media owners, landowners, wealthy mining millionaires - most of whom pay little or no tax. Because it is perfectly legal to pay little or no tax - if you have enough money to set it up. If the Tax Laws were changed they would not need to squeeze the poorer people. Funny they can spend $370 million on the G20 meeting in Brisbane this weekend.
    Brissiegirl
    13th Nov 2014
    12:25pm
    It was the Rudd/Gillard outfit that campaigned for the G20 party in Brisbane - not the Liberals. Liberals' philosophy is that private enterprise and particularly small business and people who risk capital investment, provide the jobs that in turn encourage personal enterprise. Labor buys votes by selling the welfare state attitude, and throwing taxpayer funds around to buy votes from entitlement mentality recipients. Just look at union leaders' greed - at the expense of workers. I would vote Liberal as I am a believer in working hard and looking after myself.
    However, the present Liberal government has not stood by its pre-election commitments. The worst thing they are doing is in some ways delivering the Australian population back to socialist, spendthrift incompetence that also saw our borders left open to all and sundry long-term welfare seekers and goodness knows what extremists got in under Labor's uncaring radar, as our security personnel would know only too well. Liberals, to our dismay and detriment, are definitely doing it the wrong way, but the alternative (imo) is far, far worse.
    FrankC
    13th Nov 2014
    12:31pm
    Yes the tax laws should be amended to account for companies like Ikea. A company that makes $3 billion a year, sends most of it offshore and ends up paying tax on $1 million, that is 0.3%. Why should the honest Aussie worker pay a minimum of 30% when Ikea pay only 0.3%, and forget that they have made their profit from the Australian public, who in effect are being ripped off.! If they want to operate in Australia, then they should play fair with the Oz public.
    Kali-G
    13th Nov 2014
    12:35pm
    Spot on comment on our tax laws.
    They scrutinize your deduction...
    but the BIG corporations get away with murder....
    KSS
    13th Nov 2014
    1:07pm
    FrankC and Kali-G I believe that the taxation of international companies is on the G20 agenda. Put there by Mr Hockey! We await the outcome.......
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    6:10pm
    Well labor had 6 years to do something about the tax on multinationals and they got as far as constantly whinging about it. Let's see what the conservatives can do?
    wally
    14th Nov 2014
    11:05am
    Good on ya Supernan. Glad to see you refuse to let facts interfere with you thinking, views and opinions.
    particolor
    14th Nov 2014
    4:20pm
    You got a Discount ! I heard it was 490 Million ??
    Polly Esther
    13th Nov 2014
    11:51am
    No....No....No.... and when the election comes round people will have forgotten these sorts of things as usual, and they will go and pin the tail on the donkey again. I guess.
    raymondp
    13th Nov 2014
    11:57am
    How right you are mate, pin the tail on the ass ....
    Mamacrystal
    13th Nov 2014
    12:40pm
    Historically as a collective we have very short memories, and the pollies are good at offering sweet carrots to "the donkeys".....so watch for lots of sweeteners in the year preceding the next election!
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    12:42pm
    Not this people - I haven't voted for the big parties for a very, very long time.... nor will I again...
    Pass the Ductape
    13th Nov 2014
    12:02pm
    I doubt it will stop many visits to the doctor for me. I've been lucky throughout my life in not having to frequent the doctors surgery more than about 3 times - and those being for accidents attributed to working for a living. These days however, my body has been cracking up something terrible and telling me it's about time to stop thinking and acting like a teenager. Consequently I've had to visit the doctor ten times in the last year or so with specialist treatments added to the mix. Hopefully, visits to the doctor will again cease once the current round of treatment fixes the issues now apparent from working my guts out for other people - bless there little rich hearts! In the meantime, I'm stuck with having to fork out a substantial amount in co-payments when I've reached a time in my life when I can least afford to! Thanks for that Mr Abbott and Mr Hockey - but I have a long memory. See you at the BALLOT BOX!
    EELS
    13th Nov 2014
    12:20pm
    Who are these people that are lucky enough to only pay $7 to see their GP? I have been paying $72 to see mine.
    digiom
    13th Nov 2014
    1:57pm
    Eels - I went to my doctor yesterday. I paid $109 and was told by the receptionist that I would probably get around $60 back from Medicare.
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    6:13pm
    EElS I think you need to be also getting a wad of money from Centerlink to qualify for that low payment.
    wally
    14th Nov 2014
    11:08am
    I don't know where you line, EELS, but it sounds /reads like you need a new GP. I for one, would not like to be helping him pay off a new Lexus either.
    Kali-G
    13th Nov 2014
    12:32pm
    There is something seriously wrong with our politicians!!!
    Take for instance the idiotic huge piss-up...the Brisbane G20 ....which is nothing more than a talk fest and high living junket for fat cats.
    According to sources the cost is now exceeded half a BILLION dollars.
    lets assume that it is correct, that money would have paid for at least 20 new hospitals!
    or look at this way...it would cover 71.5 million visits to doctors!!!!!
    or 3 visits for a year by every citizen of Australia.
    Than look at the "war" in Iraq......
    every bomb they drop is costing 500.000 dollars...purchased from the USA..
    that is without all the other costs such as aircraft fuel, wages etc...etc..etc...
    So why is Abbot and Co so determined to stuff up everything?
    The tragedy is that the other bunch is no better either.
    We are seriously screwed..folks.
    KSS
    13th Nov 2014
    12:42pm
    Kali G I have no problem with people criticising the incumbent Government. But at least do it fairly. It was the Labor Government who committed Australia to hosting the G20. The costs are now having to be found by the current Government. Hardly their fault now is it?
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    3:09pm
    KSS.. Could You Please make up an excuse for Me, Why My cat went to the toilet on next doors lawn this Morning !!
    ..Desperate.
    Polly Esther
    13th Nov 2014
    3:23pm
    Parti.....see, all that training wasn't wasted after all. Wow! what a pussy.
    Paddles
    13th Nov 2014
    10:29pm
    Kali-G

    Just what sort of a hospital could you build, equip and staff for $25,000,000?

    KSS

    Have you ever heard of "selective amnesia?"
    wally
    14th Nov 2014
    11:15am
    There might be something seriously wrong with our politicians, but there is something seriously "wronger" with the voters who put them there!
    If what has been posted above is true about Labor's lobbying to have the G 20 staged in Brisbane, would this have been originally intended to give Kevin Rudd the opportunity to prance about on "the world stage" in full glare of international media attention and big note himself for the Brisbanites to marvel at?
    genimi
    14th Nov 2014
    11:41pm
    I would love to have me money spent per capita on the nits in Brisbane - fair enough, have meetings but do you really have to have them in luxury? has no one heard of skype?
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    2:54pm
    Pass The Prawn Cocktails along the table Please Tony like a Good Chap !! I think Vlad down the end there want one ?

    13th Nov 2014
    12:39pm
    Typical of the form of government we've had for far too long - just over-ride anyone and anything to get what they want like spoiled children.

    I thought the adults were in charge, not some petulant private school boys.....
    patrick
    13th Nov 2014
    12:45pm
    Next election ,goodbye current govt.
    If they do so.
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    2:58pm
    Singin..Bye Bye Miss America Pie !!.
    dougie
    13th Nov 2014
    12:50pm
    When you deal with a recalcitrant Senate the Government of the day must take whatever steps are necessary to achieve the outcomes it has set. Barnacle Bill will never lead the Labor party to Government so he does not have to worry about having deep financial troubles in Government. I just wish that all parties had the sense to govern wisely without making stupidly financial decisions so that we could live wisely but safely.
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    2:05pm
    Jah, Mein fuhrer - ve vill chust ride rough shod ovfer zem, und der ones who do not like der scheme ve vill zend to der konzentrationslager...
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    2:05pm
    Jah, Mein fuhrer - ve vill chust ride rough shod ovfer zem, und der ones who do not like der scheme ve vill zend to der konzentrationslager...
    HOLA
    13th Nov 2014
    2:54pm
    zig heil!!!
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    3:16pm
    Ja MEAN Herr !!
    Kato
    13th Nov 2014
    5:42pm
    Vlad will be disappointed' in you lot. You should all be learning to speak Russian.
    Line up for your ???????
    particolor
    14th Nov 2014
    8:01pm
    Ra! Ra! Rasputin !! ........
    Paulodapotter
    13th Nov 2014
    12:55pm
    Yes, the government will push through the $7 co-payment as they know that to reverse the payment would bring too much criticism because of cost. I think it's a nail in the coffin of the coalition, but they are driven by ideology on this issue. They want to undermine any hope of a return to government funded health services. Will it affect my visits to the doctor? No, but that's because I can afford it. Will it affect others? I'm sure it will, but your survey will determine that.
    Paddles
    13th Nov 2014
    10:36pm
    Paulodapotter

    "Ideological" my arse! This country is poised on the brink of much harder times than we have seen for about sixty years.

    Whatever else you may think (if you do) of this Government, it is an economically realistic administration that is seeking to dodge a bullet that is coming this way.
    Wstaton
    14th Nov 2014
    12:36pm
    What cost. This payment has nothing to do with cost. I is supposed to be earmarked for medical research at our expense that the pharmaceuticals will grab and make money on and further rip us off.

    The money is not intended to reduce the deficit.
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    12:24pm
    Paddles - how are some people able to live in this country & show such little
    awareness of what is going on around them ?
    Your above comment is a like rose between 2 thorns!
    Anonymous
    17th Nov 2014
    1:46pm
    @ Paddles.

    Well said.
    KSS
    13th Nov 2014
    12:57pm
    I think it is inevitable that a co-payment will happen. As has been pointed out here by others many people already pay 10 times the suggested $7 fee. It is only those who go to bulk billing medical centres who will be affected and there are fewer of those centres every year anyway. Given the time it takes to design, integrate and test anything in IT, it is sensible to give those responsible for design and implementation notice and a timeframe to complete the project.

    I note though that there is no mention of the capping of the fee at $70 i.e. 10 medical events (visits, tests etc) and a rebate of $70 to pensioners. Will that still be included in the mix?

    Will it hurt the Liberals? Probably. But what do we really want? A popularist government profligate with taxpayers money or one that is not afraid to make the hard decisions?
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    2:08pm
    Populist and placing money where it counts for many does not equal profligate, nor does robbing the poor equate to any 'hard decision'.

    You need to stop swallowing propaganda whole.... if any hard decisions need to be made -it is to properly tax companies and divest Australia of this devastating global economy addiction. Of course, this is unlikely to happen since the politicians of both sides run scared of big business and refuse to have any balls.
    Jen
    13th Nov 2014
    2:12pm
    Well said, Grappler.
    KSS
    13th Nov 2014
    2:21pm
    And I wish Grappler you would stop telling me what to do or think and making assumptions.

    As for taxation of big companies, you obviously missed my earlier post when I said I believed that very issue is on the G20 agenda put there by Mr Hockey.
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    2:59pm
    My dear sir - the assumption involved is in a black and white image of either populist and profligate OR somehow responsible and making hard decisions. This is all just repetition of rhetoric.... I sincerely believe you need to start thinking for yourself and stop reciting chapter and verse from one side or the other's little book of propaganda.

    I cit for you again the undeniable reality that perhaps only those directly afflicted by the great socialist revolution of the past thirty years know and understand that - to put it simply - when you harm some in society as a matter of policy to achieve some wonderful 'equality' - you are not 'equalising them at all - you are attacking some to offer advantage to others, as is done in certain Third World countries as a matter of course.

    You know what I mean by now, and sending out clouds of squid's ink by name-calling and labeling will not help.
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    3:35pm
    On the subject of G20 and Joe - I'd like to see the content and the ideas put forward on the issue of taxing etc... if it's another shirt-fronting fiasco - forget it. All sound and fury signifying nothing.
    KSS
    13th Nov 2014
    3:50pm
    Grappler you are of course entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to dictate what I should or shouldn't think, accept, reject, swallow, regurgitate. agree to or disagree with, recite, repeat or construct.

    As for name calling, I take great care not to do that and in fact have 'called' others including you on the very same.
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    4:40pm
    But.. KSS .. it is not telling you what to think etc when I disagree with you. You are entitled to hold your views if you wish, as am I. I simply like to point out, from my point of view, that sometimes you are mistaken - as are we all.....

    When you say 'telling me what to think' - you are placing your self and your views in an automatic position of subordination - something I do not wish you to adopt.
    Patriot
    13th Nov 2014
    5:16pm
    Well said grappier
    Anonymous
    14th Nov 2014
    4:24am
    Merci
    Anonymous
    14th Nov 2014
    4:24am
    Merci
    particolor
    14th Nov 2014
    11:06am
    Who cut the Cheese ??
    Tom Tank
    13th Nov 2014
    1:19pm
    It is alarming to realise that the current Government is implementing policies grounded in the 19th Century which essentially state that in order to improve finances all costs must be reduced. In this case all welfare must be minimised as well as wages reduced thus cutting costs.
    On a simplistic level this seems well founded HOWEVER in a modern society doing these sort of things reduces the amount of cash in circulation and thus the economy starts to spiral downward. A State in the USA with a Right Wing Governor is running its finances this way and their economy is in dire trouble. I apologise for not remembering which State that is.
    As in all things we need a balance between income and expenditure and my question is why is it that the fixes to our budget are being made on the expenditure side when we have obscene profits being made and little or no tax being paid?
    The old Furphy of "but businesses cannot be taxed because they create jobs for people" is as old as Adam and is rubbish. Businesses only employ the minimum number of people they need to run the business, in fact these days it is often less than is really needed to because --- yes you guessed it "cut costs".
    This co-payment is part of the cut in welfare and is also part of the winding back of our whole system of Government involvement in Health, Education, etc. 19th Century thinking.
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    2:14pm
    Simple really - those dopey businesses will not sell their product unless people have the money to spend and buy them. It's a symbiotic thing.. thus chopping off social security and reducing wages will serve to bring down the very companies trying to achieve these things.

    A short term sell-off to Chindia will work for a short time, then that market will dry up as well due to the same problems. Once you run out of people with the wherewithal to buy - you do not sell - as is happening to many retail outlets here now.

    I've cited before the need for an imbalance in REAL incomes (as opposed to 'estimated 'wealth that does not take into account costs of living and massive disparities in real incomes) between trading countries so as to ensure that goods flow. When Jo Bloggs earns the same as Joe Fong - which one will buy the goods produced by Jo or Joe's company? Why would either pay extra cost for freight etc when the local product costs the same and they have the same amount to spend?

    Nope - the whole deal is headed for the crapper.....
    Paddles
    13th Nov 2014
    11:05pm
    Grappler

    I read your penultimate para several times but I am still not sure that I know just where you are coming from.

    Could you perhaps help my comprehension problem by applying your judgement to an article appearing in today's press, albeit the Murdoch press, wherein it outlined and sought to justify the decision of the NSW Government to source a bunch of trains from Chennai in India.

    It was reported that a comparison of costs of production showed that the comparable wages of Australian tradesmen at $38.00 per hour should be compared with their equivalent tradesmen in India at $1.30 per hour.

    Working weeks are 38 hours compared to 54 hours and we will skim over the attendant oncost items which, of course, are grossly in favour of India (depending upon one's point of view).

    Sourcing these train carriages from India results in a saving of donkey's million of dollars but the leader of the opposition in NSW, John Robertson (an ex-union official naturally) has gone on the public record as saying that any administration that he may head in the future (God spare us) would award such contracts to Australian companies.

    Do you think that you could give me the pros and cons on this one?
    Anonymous
    14th Nov 2014
    4:07am
    It's a very complex equation - and I will admit that I don't have all the details at hand, but the simple facts aqre:-

    a) that $1.30 an hour will buy far more in India than it will here.
    b) Love it or loathe it - but Indians generally have a far lower standard of living than we do.
    c) Indian workers are far more easily exploited since they have little to no Union support and are essentially viewed as disposable items
    d) Labour and wages are not controlled as much in India by regulation and are primarily the province of whatever the boss wants to give.

    Not all there (try it with a constant chatterer sitting next to you at 4 am) - but the simple reality is that wages are only one component of the 'wealth' calculation - which involves a complex equation of actual income levels, costs of living and standards of work and of living.

    You simply cannot equate the NEGOTIATED $38 an hour with a 'take it or leave it ' $1.30 an hour - and you certainly cannot expect the same level of training and (hopefully) expertise in your workforce - as well as their working conditions, safety and so forth.

    Remember always that '$38 an hour' is NEGOTIATED under control of a government body - and is not some mythical 'Union thuggery' rate handed out as bribe money or to pay for standover etc, and $38 an hour equates to less than average weekly earnings.

    I've long argued that reductions in wage - including by offshoring and thus putting pressure on wages here - will never do anything until costs of living go down as well - and costs of living in India are not as high (they don't live as well generally either), but in proportion to wages are extremely high.

    That is why I simply see no value in attempting to equate the wage rates in two totally different countries and see (falsely) that there is some need to reduce your own people's wages to 'compete' on a playing field that is so steep - $38 down to $1.30 - that it is no playing field at all.

    I'm afraid the only real answer is to 'shut the gates' on virtually everything, and re-impose tariff barriers, including on off-shoring jobs, so as to begin to equate these vast discrepancies.

    Also bear in mind that India doesn't really produce much that we really want, and so the prospects of our actually gaining much overall from such a trade with a country with that savage automatic tariff barrier - massively lower wages etc, are nil.

    We may get some lower cost items for a while, but if jobs are offshored, eventually nobody will have the money to buy them, and meanwhile the actual conditions for majority Indians (etc) do not rise, while ours go down.

    I've argued for ages that wages here chase costs of living - you may argue that our expectations are too high - to which I say that our foreparents fought to have a better life for their descendants - and this is being thrown away in pursuit of dollars for a self-appointed elite of a few - both here and over there.

    Off the top of my head - not perfect...
    Anonymous
    14th Nov 2014
    4:18am
    Also - as I said before - unless Australians can earn - they cannot buy.... and OUR economy will die while doing nothing for Darkest Chindia nor wherever, since THEIR workers will remain exploited and used without any appreciable rise in standards of living. When Australian workers do not earn - they do not pay tax - when they do not work - they are paid to live by government. A lose-lose situation.

    So while I generally disagree with Labor and LNP on most issues (easy - I'm permanent opposition!!) - I have to agree that it is better in the long term to keep work in Australia, especially when the world supplies of petroleum WILL decline and the current global marketing will leave this country bereft of skills and money and .. basically everything.

    Brave New World - just over the horizon. You see the near panic in Joe's Budget with its emphasis on 'retiring debt' - any prudent householder who sees the dark clouds of economic collapse on the horizon will seek to become 'recession-proof' - but the issues with Joe's Budget are its approach - not its intent.

    BTW:- Break even point for iron ore production a year ago was $87 a tonne - the current price is $83 a tonne.......
    Anonymous
    14th Nov 2014
    4:24am
    Sorry - I do go on. Also never forget that India with an influx of money - like China - will suddenly find (if and when industry wages go up as in China) that the cost of agricultural production must rise as well since the farmers will be unable to compete with the incomes of Industrial Man -and thus eventualy they - like china - will enter the same upward spiral of costs of living up = wages up = costs of living up = wages up.... until their wages/costs of living and ours meet at the same 'comparative wealth' (ability to buy the same basket of goods with available money/income) level somewhere (I can't calculate that point - I'm sure someone has or can).
    Anonymous
    14th Nov 2014
    4:31am
    Oh - and please. I am neither a Knowledge Nazi nor the Fount of All Knowledge - I simply have views - I'm a Gemini (messenger of the gods) - and can think and reason - doesn't always make me right.

    I've offended poor KSS by disagreeing......
    KSS
    14th Nov 2014
    9:06am
    "Playing the man and not the ball" again Grappler.
    Anonymous
    14th Nov 2014
    11:48am
    Re-read - you miss me entirely. I merely commented that I'd offended you - how is that playing the man? Are you in Queenslund where we do things diff'rently, you mark my words?
    Yutcha
    13th Nov 2014
    1:26pm
    Here, here! How many sleeps until the next election when this bunch of arrogant so and so's who appear ro have no regard for the will of the people can be despatched?!!!!
    maxchugg
    13th Nov 2014
    1:49pm
    Gee, isn't it great to live in a democracy!
    But how to exercise democratic rights next election will be another question.
    Jen
    13th Nov 2014
    1:50pm
    Yes, they will do it because they've bypassed the Senate before. (Petrol excise which came into being about a week ago.)
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    2:19pm
    All proto-Fascists do..... it's just the totally false assumption that in assuming the mantle of government they adopt the mantle of total power and control. It's an issue I've addressed in my assertion titled "Divine Right of Elected Government" - in which I compare the current mode of thought with that of past absolute rulers/kings etc... all of whom have bitten the dust of history as a result.

    Accession to government does NOT give accession to total power - any more than running a business gives accession to total power over staff..... there are clear limits on power and control within a democratic society - and these need to be fully formulated now.
    Paddles
    13th Nov 2014
    11:14pm
    Jen

    On the question of petrol and its cost, today I saw the greatest gap in pricing in a closed community that I have ever seen.

    On the main drag at Albion Park, BP wanted 149.9 cents per litre for E10 but I filled up at Enhance for 124.8 cents per litre. A difference for the mathematically challenged of 25.1 cents per litre.

    THIS is one of the national scandals of this administration and those who preceded it! Back in the 1970's there was a body called the The Prices Justification Tribunal and, as one engaged in commerce at the time, I found it a pain in the butt but, given the story above, I am almost nostalgic for it now.
    Anonymous
    14th Nov 2014
    4:37am
    Some would say that the PJT is too 'socialist' for our own good... socialism sometimes gets a bad name, but essentially it is simply a form of (in our country) controlled capitalism. Problems begin when the balance between capitalism and socialism get out of balance...... and for those who follow any of my ravings - this inevitably results in lower standards for the majority (from either side) and even loss of rights...

    Footnote:- Dear KSS and I fell out over 'feminism' - which I seek to view as just one Ubersocialist move that has reduced real rights etc and has introduced other problems as well, and as part of an overall hopscotch plan by governments of all stamps striving for Uberkontrol. KSS seeks to place my objections to that false ideology in the context of personal injury... true to some extent.. but not the whole issue.
    KSS
    14th Nov 2014
    9:10am
    Grappler we 'fell out' over your constant personal attacks on me and other contributors. Not whatever opinion you happen to hold. There is a BIG difference.

    " KSS seeks to place my objections to that false ideology in the context of personal injury" actually I seek to do nothing - you do that yourself.
    carmencita
    13th Nov 2014
    1:51pm
    We have now a government that violates democratic principles to get its way. Is this how bad a Liberal Government is going to be. This is not about raising money to balance the budget because this government keeps spending without restraint. Bob Hawke in his interview at the passing of Gough Whitlam is right in saying Australia no longer have the quality of politicians that make this country great.
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    6:18pm
    I think Bob was referring to his own party.
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    6:44pm
    Sure of it, Frank.
    The Rudds, Gillards, & Shortens....
    particolor
    14th Nov 2014
    10:53am
    No Second Prize !!
    Polly Esther
    14th Nov 2014
    1:00pm
    and he forgot to add, "anybody who does not agree is a bum.. ha ha ha!!"
    particolor
    14th Nov 2014
    1:56pm
    And if the Boss doesn't give You the day off He's a Bum too !!
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    7:41pm
    And if the boss doesn't give you rock oysters for morning tea then its out brothers out!!
    downunder
    13th Nov 2014
    2:24pm
    It only would make it more certain that this forsaken government will be a one timer. I am pretty certain it is on the cards and as they have no social consciousness it fits into their DNA
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    3:49pm
    Do not forsake Me OH My Darling !!
    On this Election day !!
    For I must face the Folks who hate Me !!
    Or die a Coward in my Grave !!
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    6:22pm
    They have misread the situation entirely. They thought we wanted better economic managers. We are quite happy to have the bikies and unions run the country. At least when they rip us off they don't brag about it.
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    6:36pm
    Well, your priorities are right, aren't they?
    Labor can cause deaths by negligence, give borrowed money away like lollies,
    half finished building contracts, letting illegas in, costing $billions -
    & you are certain that this govt. will be a one timer for $7 !!
    You have got to be kidding !!
    wally
    14th Nov 2014
    11:21am
    Hi darling parti. which ones are you not going to forsake? and which ones will you give "the Royal Order" of the stake through the heart?
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    2:50pm
    More likely either way the Order of the Steak on a Plate !!
    BundyGil
    13th Nov 2014
    2:32pm
    The senate will just disallow the re3gulation as has been done many times before.
    The government is just playing politics and will say the opposition and the other parties are wrecking the budget.
    I agree with a previous comment about the electorate not remembering nasty stuff by the time the next election comes around. Much of the electorate has the attention span of a gnat without the brains of a gnat.
    A few sweeteners in the pre election budget and they start wagging their tail and dribbling like Pavlov's dogs.
    downunder
    13th Nov 2014
    2:49pm
    You are -unfortunately- so correct with your characterisation of the electorate and the small sweeteners, it makes you vomit.
    Jen
    13th Nov 2014
    3:05pm
    Sadly, I agree.
    Jen
    13th Nov 2014
    3:07pm
    Unfortunately, they know how to play the electorate, and it works. It worked at the last election. Sadly it doesn't equate to inspired leadership.
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    3:28pm
    Where's the Ipecac ?
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    6:23pm
    Yes Jen, it worked with me. I was so confused.
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    8:19pm
    Like decoding a cryptic message!
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    12:36pm
    BundyGil - Oh, I think the electorate remembered all the nasty stuff about Labor's
    term in office before voting at the last election!
    That's even with countless sweeteners!
    Labor has always been the one to "buy" votes (with borrowed money, of course)!
    alinejordan
    13th Nov 2014
    2:50pm
    as soon as Fraser came into government after overthrowing the Whitlam government they did their level best to get rid of Medibank. it took Hawke to reintroduce the concept under the name Medicare. every time the libs are in government they attack fundamental rights hard fought for by the Australian people. no wonder labor always gets into debt when they have to re-introduce what the libs get rid of. are we a Pty.Ltd?? i think not.
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    3:57pm
    Its a Biblical thing !! There will be 6 Years of PLENTY !!
    And then 6 Years of FAMIN ! As the Libs Removeth !!
    Seagull
    13th Nov 2014
    2:50pm
    Once again the people whinging are those going to bulk billing doctors. Amazing no body complains about paying $20 for cigaretts or $7 for schooner of beer, or playing the pokies.
    Dont worry just put on the slate, the grand kids can pay. Its just take ,take and make sure that you pay the least. What a selfish mob we have become, talk about self centered . Give me a break. Just wait till little billy gets in and puts your power bill up. The mob who trashed the country in 6 years.
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    2:54pm
    I don't smoke and the RSL charges $4.80 a schooie.... and the pokies charge an ante of $100 these days - it seems...

    Not everyone engages in those vices....

    Might go for a cold one - hot today...
    Tom Tank
    13th Nov 2014
    2:56pm
    Funny how the take, take and make sure you pay the least applies most to big business than it does to individuals.
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    6:25pm
    Seagull, you certainly have put things into the right perspective!
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    3:08pm
    Don't have to wait for Billy ?? Your Bloke is doing a BONZA Job on his own already !!.
    Where do You get Your Smokes ?? that must be a Small pack ! Which is 2/3 TAX for the Fuhrer !! And You'll have to stop drinking in that Elite Bar at $7 bucks a Schooner !! .. No wonder Your Broke ??
    Judy in the hills
    13th Nov 2014
    2:53pm
    Strange how apparently so many are prepared to put aside $575 towards lining up for a booking for a Heston Blumenthal meal, but are horror struck at a $7 co-payment for visiting their GP. Even with private medical cover, my husband had to pay around $350 each time as an excess fee for six check-ups (colonoscopy/endoscopy specialist appointments) a couple of years ago. The world (well in Australia) is going slightly (?) mad!
    HOLA
    13th Nov 2014
    3:00pm
    The Hills are Alive Judy. What about those idiots who think nothing of forking out thousands of dollars to go and see the Rolling Stones, what a bunch of misfits they are.
    Tom Tank
    13th Nov 2014
    3:26pm
    I rather think that those who are facing the $7 co-payment fee are not booking for a Heston Blumenthal meal or going to a Rolling Stones Concert.
    The major issue with the $7 fee is that is one of those broken promises. It really rankles to be lied to so blatantly and then to lie down and accept whatever is being done to our society.
    Polly Esther
    13th Nov 2014
    3:31pm
    the people or the stones? Oh damn, I just fell off my chair.
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    4:55pm
    Septagenarian Rock Rules.. man!

    I agree with Tom - those who are concerned over $7 are those least able to afford it. It's not that long ago somebody said to me - "It's only $50!" - I was aghast - my spending budget for the fortnight on luxuries didn't even make that.... and I shop at San Vancant, Tar Jay, and Sal Vos a lot....
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    6:19pm
    If people want to blame someone for the $7 co-payment, lash out at the ones
    who caused the massive debt - by giving (borrowed money) away right, left & centre
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    6:25pm
    Phew! this is hard work miss aisle. There must be an easier way?
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    6:39pm
    I'm sweating like I've run a marathon!
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    6:54pm
    ha ha ha ha!!!! I can only imagine there must be a huge number of people who go to the GP more than 10 times per year?
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    7:09pm
    Waiting rooms are usually full.....
    I would like to know the fortnightly budget of those complaining about $7.
    Those people could thank their lucky stars that they have a Dr. to go to!
    Millions of people in the world do not have the luxury of ambulances, Dr's
    Hospitals OR welfare benefits.
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    7:17pm
    Many millions do not have drinking water within 2 klms of their house. What a greedy bunch we are in this country. This is depressing with all these people whinging about a lousy $7 payment, which may just keep our medicare system alive.
    SeniorCit
    13th Nov 2014
    3:40pm
    Lets hope that the co payment goes through soon, Its about time the hangers on paid a little towards their medical bills. Why did I cringe and scrap all my working life to have just enough to fund retirement without any super, and no pension. Why didn't you all save 10% of all income as recommended for retirement days, instead of regular film visits, holidays, coffee sessions or drinks etc. or similar? If you spent all your income without saving at all, you can't complain now. There are few countries where you would get so many perks as here.

    .
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    4:57pm
    Oh - the bitter gall of generalisation and assumption.... drink deeply of this hemlock.... it will cure all your concerns...
    Anonymous
    13th Nov 2014
    4:57pm
    Oh - the bitter gall of generalisation and assumption.... drink deeply of this hemlock.... it will cure all your concerns...
    Kato
    13th Nov 2014
    6:24pm
    The.Grappler me think you are to kind.
    Paddles
    13th Nov 2014
    11:23pm
    SeniorCit

    " Why did I cringe and scrap all my working life "

    I'd like to know if you added an "S" or omitted an "E".
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    12:40pm
    I think he added an "S" ! paddles.
    Jurassicgeek
    13th Nov 2014
    3:49pm
    Just shows how far hockey and abbott will go to preserve their own entitlements...There will always be money for pollie benefits but pensioners and low income family always have to struggle.. by the time it gets to those people .."there is no money left"....we can change all this at the next election.....
    Paddles
    13th Nov 2014
    11:28pm
    Jurassicgeek

    Don't let envy rule you and yours.
    Exhort your children or, most likely, grandchildren to break the mold. Study and work hard and give themselves a shot at the brass ring. That's the way to get the top of the egg!
    Sceptic
    13th Nov 2014
    4:37pm
    I bought a bird feeder... I hung it on my back porch and filled it with seed. What a beauty of
    a bird feeder it was, as I filled it lovingly with seed.
    Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food.

    But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue.

    Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, on the chairs, the table ....everywhere!

    Then some of the birds turned mean. They would
    dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had
    fed them out of my own pocket.

    And others birds were boisterous and loud... They
    sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at
    all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.

    After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. So I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built
    all over the patio.

    Soon, the back yard was like it used to be ............ quiet, serene...... and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.

    Now let's see......
    Our government gives out free food, subsidized housing, free medical care and free education, and allows anyone born here to be an automatic
    citizen.

    Then the illegal's came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families; you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor; Your child's second grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English.

    Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to
    'press one ' to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than ”ours” are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding
    more rights and free liberties.

    Just my opinion, but maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder.

    If you agree, pass it on; if not, just continue cleaning up the poop!
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    4:54pm
    And now the Russian Sailors want Shore Leave to come and watch the Fiasco !!
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    6:12pm
    If only the govt. could see things in the simple terms you've outlined.
    There is a simple solution - just like you mentioned, - take away the bird feeder.
    wally
    14th Nov 2014
    11:26am
    Or the sugar on the table.
    Carol
    13th Nov 2014
    4:56pm
    Well put Sceptic, we will all suffer the consequences of Labor's open door policy.
    particolor
    14th Nov 2014
    1:52pm
    Go and have a Vegemite Sandwich ! You'll feel Enlightened after it !!

    13th Nov 2014
    5:42pm
    having read all those comments re: medicare I fully agree with the article of Sceptic, not a truer word was spoken by any of those who complained.
    I am a pensioner and I have to fully agree with his opinion.
    All Labour is good for is for this beautiful Country to go broke and still we want more of the same, give it to me, give it to me, such as 1st home buyers, baby bonusses, after school care, single parents etc. etc. As long as it does not come out of my pocket.
    Australia wake up to Yourself before it is to late, GET THIS COUNTRY BACK TO WHAT IT WAS, I came here in 1959 and never looked back till lately, this country is sinking into the morass through our own attitude of wanting more and more, but refusing to put in more ourself, heemskerk99
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    6:05pm
    The Coalition certainly were left with a massive mess in their laps.
    Trying their best with what they've got.
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    6:58pm
    I don't think people are aware of just how big the mess is?
    It is that bad that we are borrowing a thousand million dollars every month just to pay the interest.
    Has anyone ever been in that situation?
    Paddles
    13th Nov 2014
    11:36pm
    Frank

    I am encouraged to read your expression "a thousand million dollars" as it was the subject of at least one letter that I wrote to the press.

    The term "billion" has little impact as many people wouldn't even realise that it is a thousand million. I saw one presentation of million, billion and trillion dollars in graphic form as to how much space it occupied in (say) twenty dollar bills. It would blow the mind of most people.
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    7:40am
    I watched David Mar on the ABC argue that Australia is a very wealthy country and can afford 'it', whatever 'it' may be now or in the future. We will need a dictatorship one day. I see it coming. Australia cannot continue to raise taxes to meet shortfalls due to government waste.
    particolor
    14th Nov 2014
    1:46pm
    $1,000,000 = I Million. ='s 2 Prime Ministers Pays .. ( Australia Only )
    $1,000,000,000 = 1 Billion..
    $ 1,000,000,000,000 = 1 Trillion..
    wyre
    13th Nov 2014
    6:13pm
    This will be the end of this government if they do this i have voted for the lnp all of my voting life but no more.they can find money for this silly G20 rubbish that is going on in Brisbane but want to make us pay for everything so bye bye Tony and Joe
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    6:22pm
    It's alright to say that, wyre but, what's the alternative ?
    Kato
    13th Nov 2014
    6:35pm
    Clive Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa or OMG I wanna a package?
    Damn to much of that bird feed, gota go and poop c ya.
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    3:12pm
    Your complaining now ?? Wait till Vlad gives Tones the Fuel Bill for the Russian Fleet to come here !!
    Mar
    13th Nov 2014
    6:32pm
    This is the most manipulative Govt. ever. Total disregard for the majority of the electorate? The compulsory $7 co-payment will really hit the sick, aged, pensioners, disabled. My doctor is very much against it as it will actually cost them more in time and money to deal with it. This Govt's policies have not been well thought out. I live in a retirement village and hear lots of comments by aged people with chronic illnesses who are afraid how it will affect them. Some people need to visit their doctor every two weeks because of the type of repeat prescriptions they need. The Govt. Is spending millions on unnecessary security measures and blowing their own trumpet. The sooner they are gone the better. 600 sleeps!!! TOO LONG!.
    Kato
    13th Nov 2014
    6:37pm
    Every second night I have a stillnox. never remember that night' so for me it could be 300
    Mar
    13th Nov 2014
    6:41pm
    I am so tired of hearing about the mess the Labour Govt. left. The constant cry from the Liberals to excuse themselves of every bad decision they make. The reason Labour spent,was by trying to improve the economy, support the disabled, aged , and provide better , more accessible education. The Liberals are undoing most of this and when they are voted out in 2 years time, Labour will need to come in and spend to improve the situation. So it goes on and on and on. There is no balance.
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    7:01pm
    You're so tired hearing about Labor's mess - of hurried mismanagement, giving away
    borrowed money, spending $billions on the illegals they allowed in, not to mention the deaths of 4 young men!

    but, you're not tired of whingeing about Liberals trying to get us out of the massive
    shite left to them!
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    7:09pm
    People just don't care about anyone but themselves miss aisle.
    We are borrowing a thousand million dollars every month just to pay the interest on labor's debt!!.
    Paddles
    13th Nov 2014
    11:49pm
    Mar

    I have no way of knowing your economic literacy but I would ask you this, if your annual income is $30,000 pa, how much do you think that you are justified in spending.

    If the answer is more than $30,000 pa, how is the difference going to made up because, after all, we must pay our debts mustn't we?

    The answer of course, is that we borrow it and thereby sustain our chosen level of expenditure. But do you not agree that there must, inevitably, come a day of reckoning where we are obliged to either pay back what we borrowed or, at least, reduce the amount owing.

    Believe me (or not), national accounts are but an expanded version of the domestic economy that you have no doubt managed all your life.

    Putting a second shift on at the Government Printers will not cure our economic ills.
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    9:26am
    Excellent economics lesson, Paddles.
    Explained in such simple terms that a 5 year old would fathom the concept.
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    9:49am
    I was once invited to lecture high school students on financial matters. Class sizes were around 35 but I could only manage to get 1 or 2 at the most to listen.
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    4:26pm
    Wow, only one or two out of 35 ?
    I think it should be a compulsory subject from Kindy onwards!
    I once asked Bank Manager for a substantial loan -
    With pen ready, asked who I owed money to.. car, bankcard, personal loan ...
    When I said "no-one", he looked at me like I wasn't normal..
    not even Harris Scarffe a/c? No.
    Would have been better if you had record of payments was his answer.
    Did get the loan - but was an eye-opener.
    I reckon you would have had more of an impact on kindy children, Frank
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    4:56pm
    After my first class, the teacher commented, gee you have a couple of techniques to gain the students attention that I will borrow . HA HA!! I asked if they were normally this rowdy? She said 'oh, much worse. This was the best they've been for weeks.
    Yep, If you need to borrow money, sometimes it's a case of proving that you don't really need it.
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    5:55pm
    Certainly doesn't sound like any high school class I attended - unless the teacher
    left for 5 mins.
    How can serious learning get done with that amount of roudy misbehaviour?
    I'd say, you either gave them the cold stare or asked the "right" questions!
    Paulodapotter
    19th Nov 2014
    9:59am
    You've noticed something the both the left of politics and and the right have missed. Because both major parties use the economy as the measure of success, it's a competition between the two as to who has the best credentials. One spends to right the neglect, while the other starves the country of infrastructure and services to redress the spending. It's the old yin and yang of Australian politics, which, though not unique, is more noticeable here than in any other country. This may be due to its size that really stretches infrastructure and its population density; the lack of services in country areas; its convict culture that distrusts any authority figure or a combination of all these. The one saving grace is that a distrustful voting public generally don't like to leave a government in too long particularly at a state level due to the prevalence of corruption when they become embedded for too long a period as occurred in Qld and NSW. Chances are Abbott's crew will be gone by next election as they overplay their 'balance the budget' hand.
    Mar
    13th Nov 2014
    6:57pm
    Putin's Navy is "shirt fronting" Parti. Making sure we all know who has the biggest. (Shirt front that is)!!
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    9:20pm
    Not going there any more since My Severe telling off by Pete !! ..

    13th Nov 2014
    7:01pm
    I like to hear comments like Mar, it shows how dumb people are, it is easier to pay a contribution towards medicare then it is to loose it all together. I pay $40.00 towards my visit to a G.P, I take 18 medicines a day, I think it is worth an extra $ 7.00 a visit to stay alive, at least my children and their children won't have to pay for picking up my or your medical bills, life will be hard enough for them without paying our bills. This is from a single pensioner.
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    7:06pm
    heemskerk99, I am like you. There is no need to become so selfish is there? Let's not leave a mess for the next generation when we leave.
    Kato
    13th Nov 2014
    7:23pm
    Frank - Leave a mess for the next generation does not absolve you of your part in the mess we and the so called politicians of all persuasions have heaped upon generation after generation. The problem' we don't Learn DO WE FRANK. Unless you are in the role of caring then you me and others like us are the one's accountable. man up.
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    7:26pm
    So I take it that you don't care that much about what happens when you're gone? I cannot live like that.
    miss aisle
    13th Nov 2014
    9:57pm
    heemskerk - You show the true spirit of Australia.
    You see the glass "half full" & are grateful for our lifestyle.
    You know things aren't perfect but do the best you can, for yourself &
    children & grandchildren.
    If a few more people unhappy with paying $7, were in touch with your logic ...?
    I say if there's something detrimental happening to our country,
    sure, complain, ..... but, $7 to try & save our healthcare system.... well ?
    Kato
    13th Nov 2014
    9:59pm
    Frank what you take from that is your own assumption. your conclusion on whether I care or not does not absolve you me or anyone of the damage done. That is my point.
    As for when Iam gone the same as you.
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    10:54pm
    Kato, you can only speak for yourself. You have no idea what I have done or what I am about to do. And I have no idea what you're on about?
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    9:12am
    Kato, - your comment 13th Nov. 7:23pm -
    It was unclear - a few different thoughts lumped together & hard to follow.
    Maybe you were upset?
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    9:15am
    You must still be upset with this morning's comment, Kato.
    hard to follow
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    7:20pm
    Does anyone have a better idea? Or should we just close down Medicare?
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    9:24pm
    What's 7 Bucks ?.. Doesn't worry Me !
    Tom Tank
    13th Nov 2014
    10:44pm
    Frank you must be sitting in on LNP meetings to know their intention about Medicare.
    Adrianus
    13th Nov 2014
    10:57pm
    You must have crystal balls to make a statement like that.
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    11:05pm
    Might be Glass Blower ??
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    1:03pm
    No parti, I'm just saying Tom Tank is all huff and puff but going nowhere.
    AlbertC
    13th Nov 2014
    8:11pm
    they tell me that in china the other day that mr abbort , said i must go to the loo i think i shit my pants when putin walked in all mouth and no brains ifb





    it is
    particolor
    13th Nov 2014
    9:27pm
    OOW !!..
    niemakawa
    13th Nov 2014
    10:47pm
    Mr Abbott and Mr Putin are both strong leaders of their respective Countries. Give them both credit and respect.
    Jen
    14th Nov 2014
    8:16am
    Credit and respect? You're asking for a bit of a stretch there, niemakawa.
    Polly Esther
    14th Nov 2014
    1:28pm
    John Wayne used to walk like that, like he'd filled his undies.
    niemakawa
    13th Nov 2014
    10:41pm
    "Complicated fee"? it is straightforward. $ 7.00. It is here nor there, and will make little difference to anyone's budget. Be kind to your Country and pay it.
    Finni
    13th Nov 2014
    11:49pm
    I agree with the co-payment if it goes to research and I can get a tax receipt and I can claim it on my tax refund
    It has been 4 elections since I have voted for a major party, I will not vote for a siting member as I feel they do not work hard enough for the local area
    The sooner we get rid of state governments and local councils and have regional councils maybe we will be better off
    bartpcb
    14th Nov 2014
    1:32am
    Will the Federal Government try to bypass the Senate and push through the $7 GP fee via regulation? YES of course they will. Do they have the right to push through such a fee? NO. Will you reduce the number of visits to your GP if the $7 co-payment is introduced? IF I was a person who got sick, YES. This government is a bunch of spoiled yuppy private school boys with the arrogance that only peasant nobility can aspire to.
    Jen
    14th Nov 2014
    6:22am
    with a simplistic ideology (cut, cut, cut, and take, take, take,) that's doomed to failure. There's not an ounce of inspired idea among them.
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    8:37am
    Jen, I got a $2,000 cheque from the Gillard Government and I was not inspired. They looked at me strangely when I tried to give it back. I must have spoken to 7 different people who did not have a clue as to how they could receive it. I persisted, and during the course of 7 weeks I was able to give the money back. I wasn't inspired by the lack of understanding either.
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    9:03am
    If only the general public could realize the reason behind the amount of $7.
    Too much borrowed money was given away or wasted during Labor's years,
    & at some time, money has to be paid back; or, we go completely down the drain.
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    9:12am
    They understand too well. It is not until you put a nominal price on something that people place a value on it.
    Abby
    14th Nov 2014
    7:24am
    In a lot of places to see a GP you have to make an appointment 3 weeks in advance - something has to be done... the GP saying see you next week does not help....In a lot of cases the GP rooms are like a social get together....the over governance of prescriptions...the country is being held at AMA ransom
    Sunnychick
    14th Nov 2014
    7:31am
    So why have a Senate. Abbott seems to be a law unto himself, eg. $7 co-payment, and rise in fuel tax.
    particolor
    14th Nov 2014
    10:56am
    Settle Down !! He'll be back with more !
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    12:55pm
    Sunnychick, do you have a problem with paying taxes?
    Polly Esther
    14th Nov 2014
    1:34pm
    It's fairly simplistic.
    If you pay a lot of tax you must be earning a lot. Congratulations!
    Be happy in your work.
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    2:59pm
    Doc, it's not as simplistic as you may think. People need to buy fuel and therefor pay the tax regardless of how much they might earn. Many people travel a similar distance each week and yet they are not on the same salary level. Why do you say that a person's earnings are an indication of how much fuel they buy?
    Ruthie
    14th Nov 2014
    9:06am
    Just who does Dutton think he is? and for that matter, Abbott and Hockey who are determined to punish the general public. How dare they think they can bypass democracy! They are acting like spoilt brats, having temper tantrums to get their own way. So good to hear the gap between Labor and Liberal has widened. I can't wait for the next election and let's hope there are enough sensible people wanting true democracy and fairness, who will get rid of this government, a group of rich boys and only a very light sniff of women, who are dragging Australia back to the 40's and 50's or even worse!! Long may they be in opposition after the next election.
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    9:39am
    I don't think we're being dragged back to the 50's & 60's, but if we were, it would
    still be 100% better than going straight down the gurlgler!
    If Labor was still in power $billions more (BORROWED) would have been wasted or given away, - leaving us where ???
    As someone mentioned earlier, we are already paying A thousand million $ every month - JUST ON INTEREST on Labor's debt.
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    9:57am
    miss aisle, not only are we paying a thousand million dollars per month on labor's debt, WE ARE BORROWING A THOUSAND MILLION DOLLARS EVERY MONTH in order to pay it! Can you imagine having a credit card almost maxed out and borrowing the minimum payment due every month? There is a reason that Swan in his final budget announced that a surplus was impossible. Labor had committed us to massive expenditures for 10 years with no realistic plan to increase receipts.
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    12:27pm
    Labor's incompetence & utter disregard for future generations should be well known.
    Sadly, They just haven't got a clue.
    Must be a lot people walking around with blinkers on - -
    if all they can criticize is $7, for an unvaluable service.
    Before the borrowing amount was mentioned, I didn't realize it was such a
    massive amount!
    Labor voters, do all these figures mean anything at all to you?
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    12:52pm
    miss aisle, you are assuming that labor voters don't care about where the money comes from to pay for their services as long as they don't have to pay it??? There must be some labor voters who do care. I would imagine.
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    4:13pm
    Surely Frank, there'd have to be some who have an interest in all the debits &
    credits.
    I find it unbelievable that some Labor voters completely ignore the countless
    stuff-ups brazenly carried out by Rudd & Gillard (like they never happened!)
    & nitpick Liberal's policies?
    Obviously, what you say is true - not a worry in the world about where the money comes from, as long as their palms are constantly covered with the stuff.
    Makes me wonder - if Liberals damaged Australia as Labor did.....
    the outcry would last 100 years!
    Especially, seeing there's such anger over $7 ??
    For the life of me, cannot understand the mentality!
    (typo - INvaluable service)
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    7:39pm
    Yes, Kevin Rudd gets away with wanting to shake someone's sauce bottle without a murmur from the lefties. But as soon as Abbott mentions shirtfront they go bananas as if it's a red flag waving in front of a bull.
    But dear old Kevin can sit there in parliament picking the wax out of his left ear and eating it like a monkey at Taronga and not a word from the dear lefties.
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    11:36pm
    Ugh, how crass is that? Straight out of the gutter.
    Sometimes watching him in parliament (as leader) sprouting off b.s. & oozing with smug arrogance, while leaning on one arm, filled me with utter disgust.
    Think he had the same answer for each question asked, as well as the same stance.
    Looked hard to find something positive about him, but wasn't successful.
    PlanB
    14th Nov 2014
    9:39am
    Another sneaky ploy of the Abbott lot, I would not put ANYTHING past this lot of Bastards !
    No they don't have a right to do it !

    I am unable to reduce the number of visits -- I would dearly LOVE to --as one has to attend when one has a health problem
    Ruby
    14th Nov 2014
    10:19am
    As a pensioner (Full) I agree with the co-payment. Neither medical treatment nor education is free. Someone has to pay for it. This is normally the tax payer. I realise that people believe that the government (which ever party is in power) has loads of money to pay for these things. They don't. Migrants who come to this country with the permission of the government have to look after themselves for ten years. Those who come without permission don't. If anything is not fair to the Australian tax payer it is that there are two standards for migrants. Either all migrants should get welfare or none.
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    5:40pm
    Totally agree, Ruby. There are no free handouts.
    This double standard for migrants has, is & will cost Aussie taxpayers plenty.
    As well as $billions, there's a huge impact on our resources.

    Then there's - just for one e.g. A chicken farmer was visited by muslims to pay them $40,000 pa., so the chickens can be certified as "halal".
    The farmer is told, if he doesn't, muslims will not buy.
    This is happening now across a broad spectrum of products throughout Aust.
    -many types of milk, bread, meats, yoghurt, cheese, chocolate, etc...... -
    some have the halal label, others do not.
    And the $millions are put into an Islamic Fund. They determine where the
    un-earned money goes - ISIS, mosques, whatever.
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    7:44pm
    I think its a tax on non muslims because vegemite is taxed by AFIC and only Aussies and Kiwis eat the stuff.
    miss aisle
    14th Nov 2014
    11:42pm
    You're right Frank, & also, the audacity to visit piggeries, for a cut of the pie!
    Adrianus
    15th Nov 2014
    8:50am
    miss aisle, this pervasive sharia law tax has taken us all by surprise. I have just read the World Halal Council's mission statement. It's a little frightening that a 'religion' can operate as a global law operating above the politics and laws of any country.
    Australia sounds pretty dam ignorant to be arguing about a $7 co payment for a visit to the GP and not worry about a world wide extortion racket that pushes up prices on everything we buy. If a plastic container can be 'halal certified' then so too a Doctors Practice.
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    12:05pm
    Now THOSE facts are something to get all worked up about!
    I hope all the facts from your research is reaching thousands, -
    Puts a lot new slant on what's important.
    All I can say is - Thank You, for all your effort, Frank
    Adrianus
    15th Nov 2014
    1:19pm
    The Indonesian Doctors Association (IDI) and the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) are at loggerheads over whether halal certification is required for medicines in the country.

    In a rare occurrence, IDI members held a press conference on Thursday to criticize the MUI for saying that most medicines circulating in the country were haram (forbidden) and that the government must ensure Muslims consumed halal medicines that had been certified as such. When medicines in Australia need to be Halal Certified it is a very small step to Halal Certification of GP's. This will impose additional expense that your local GP will find hard to handle and remain in business.
    Adrianus
    15th Nov 2014
    1:32pm
    Halal Certification of medicines is relatively easy as one Pharmacy in Lakemba says....'We identify which medicine products, ingredients and companies have already been certified halal by current reputable halal certifiers such as AFIC, ICV etc and then label them as halal with the HCM sticker.' Halal Certified Medicines (HCM).
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    3:46pm
    The MOST IMPORTANT THING to come out of this $7 debate,
    would have to be the revelation of the possible future extortion involving our
    medicines to make them halal; (would be at extra cost)

    Also, the possible future extortion involving labelling our GP's as halal;
    (Again at considerable extra cost to us !)

    These important facts make the $7 pale into insignifigance !
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    3:27pm
    Well My computer is now Halal !! The Imam just left after Sending a Get Well Soon, Email to ISIS on it !!....
    Jen
    14th Nov 2014
    10:23am
    A bit off topic, to do with the Pope writing to Abbott to remember the poor at the G20, this comment by Andrew P Street from the Sydney Morning Herald would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious:

    Francis can rest easy: we know that Abbott hasn't forgotten the poor. In fact, as we mentioned earlier this week, he'll be discussing how he plans to reduce their payments and force them to wait for up to six months for unemployment benefits as a way of somehow stimulating economic growth.

    Every single attempt the LNP have made to "save money" is another step towards recession. Including the $7 co-payment.
    Wstaton
    14th Nov 2014
    12:27pm
    The way this government is going is attacking democracy. Our founding fathers put into place the senate as an house of review to make sure a government cannot usurp democracy. which they could if it wasn't in place. A government in p-lace could simply pass laws that would make it impossible for any other party to get into power. This is what is good about the Westminster system it was in place in order to stop this. Now this government is slowly trying cause erosion to our democratic system to get through their pet projects most of which the people object to. What will be next.

    This is the one big problem with our current system a party may have 3 big things that everyone is in favour of and one that everyone is in disagreement but get into power because of the. They then trumpet that they have a mandate for all four because people voted them in. If the apposing party had 2 things that everyone was in agreement with but 2 people are in disagreement then everyone votes for the lessor of the two evils.

    The only way out of this is to have a referendum on major policy decisions at the same time as the election. They say referendums cost but this is because they are usually held separately. I do not see how they will cost much more if they are held at the same time after all all it is is a few questions added to the voting sheet with a yes or no answer.

    One wonders just how many of the current things that this government would have passed if the question was asked especially considering that some of the things that this government is trying to ram through after lying that they were not going to happen.
    particolor
    14th Nov 2014
    2:03pm
    Don't believe anything I say unless I put it in Writing !!
    Adrianus
    14th Nov 2014
    2:44pm
    I beg your pardon?! Founding Fathers and Founding Mothers were here already centuries before we even knew about politics. Adam Goodes said, Captain Cook didn't discover Australia because it wasn't lost.
    Paulodapotter
    15th Nov 2014
    12:21am
    Having read so many comments, 212 in total, I have to say you people make people like me feel better about ourselves. It's good to know I'm not the only thick idiot among you. Not one of you have analysed the reasoning behind the $7 co-payment. Have any of your read the IPA manifesto, which happens to be the advisory council behind government policy. The IPA for those who don't know who they are, they are a right wing think tank called the Institute of Public Affairs who are the advisory body on health, education, climate change, renewable energy, immigration, etc., etc. If you haven't read their manifesto, I suggest you do and if they don't scare the pants off you, nothing will. For example, if your advisers on renewable energy targets are from the coal lobby, you should have a clear idea on what government policy is going to be. If you find that health co-payments are being continually pushed up and Medicare totally privatised you would probably not be surprised to learn that the government has a policy to remove publicly funded health care. One should always look at vested interest in government decision making and be more circumspect about intentions. A good example is our hale fellow well met Clive Palmer's decision to back the axing of the carbon price after declaring his alliance with people like Al Gore. No one seemed to be interested in the fact that dear old Clive owed the government $6 mil in Carbon Tax which he saved himself by one artful public con. Have people forgotten that Clive is a coal miner, not a politician? Why do you think he wooed people like Glenn Lazarus, Jackie Lambie, et al to do his bidding? Unfortunately for him his ex soldier senator has an IED in her pocket which he is finding hard to control. But I digress - vested interest is what we should always consider for all pollies' decision making. Abbott's crew know exactly what Clive is about and they will play his little game to get their agenda through - even the co-payment (unless of course, poor little Jacky blows herself up).
    Wstaton
    15th Nov 2014
    7:28am
    Well said.
    Adrianus
    15th Nov 2014
    9:02am
    Was there this much resistance when Bob Hawke introduced the $3.50 co payment?
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    9:34am
    Well said, Frank !
    Adrianus
    15th Nov 2014
    11:37am
    There are glaring inconsistencies in the argument opposed to the $7 co payment.

    Firstly, PM's from both sides of the house understand that it is essential if our taxpayer funded health care system is to survive. Hawke could see that back in 1991 and the amount of $3.50 was probably higher than Abbott's $7 in real terms.

    Secondly, we have all been happy with the co-payment system on PBS. Co-payments have applied to the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme since 1960. Presently, for PBS-listed medications, non-concession card holders pay $36.90 a script while concession-card holders pay $6 a script.
    You know, the only difference is PBS activity is GP generated while the GP visit is Patient generated. Now why would that make a huge difference??? I wonder.
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    3:25pm
    Well Frank, that bit of detailed info should help us all get a grip on reality !
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    10:18pm
    AH ! The old copy it and double it trick Siegfried ?
    Not Senile Yet!
    15th Nov 2014
    3:02am
    Any member of any Party is just a legalised Crook/Fraudster.....how you might ask?????
    Because they have sold your vote BEFORE you have given it to them!!!
    They promise to represent you in Parliament after they have agreed to bide by the Party Line (Policies)...which virtually prevents them from representing you!!!!!
    Not rocket science folks!!!!
    What is rocket science however....is working out the reason why you all keep voting for the liars!!!!
    Vote them all out Next election.....hell bells....when will you all learn???
    OUR Parliament is about debating these proposals and finding solutions that benefit all...not just some fat cats or parties!!!
    Vote Independants into out Parliament......just to show the Parties that we CAN!!!!!!
    Adrianus
    15th Nov 2014
    8:56am
    Idiotic concept!
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    9:32am
    ".......just to show the parties that we can"!
    So you would agree with the term "cutting off your nose to spite your face" !
    I Don't think you'd be satisfied with any leader ?
    No leader is perfect, or ever will be...
    But then there's "not perfect", & there's downright useless - like Rudd/Gillard.
    Paulodapotter
    15th Nov 2014
    9:47am
    G'day Frank, the reason there was not an outcry when Hawke introduced a co-payment and by the way, there was a lot of resistance, is because it was introduced as a short term measure. There was also no doubt that the labour movement ideologically supported publicly funded health. Despite their public protestations, the coalition do not. Read the IPA manifesto.

    Not Senile Yet hits an important issue on the head nicely. The independent vote has been climbing steadily as has the Greens. The emergence of Bob Katter's and Clive Palmer's mobs are a direct result of disillusionment with the major parties. Both major parties scream about the horror of hung parliaments, but if you go back to the concept of vested interest, what else would they say. Any analysis of the facts will show that hung parliaments are the most effective way of keeping pollies focussed and have shown themselves to be more effective in bringing change and benefit to the community. Independents have a similar effect as the Democrats once did in keeping the bastards honest. There are always exceptions aka Conman Clive. However, the independents will continue to rise and hold the balance of power as long as political parties concentrate on means of keeping themselves in a job rather than doing their job So you have not suggested such an idiotic notion NSY as Frank so succinctly put.
    Adrianus
    15th Nov 2014
    4:32pm
    We have seen some Independents such as , Craig Thompson, Rob Oakeshott, Tony Windsor and Peter Slipper who were Independent by name only and the various electorates told them what they thought of their BS. Others who gained the respect of their voters were Andrew Wilkie and Bob Katter (ex Ind.). So apart from those 2 why should voters trust Independents again?
    You would like the system in Kuwait I guess?
    toot2000
    15th Nov 2014
    1:21pm
    If they try to sneak this through without Senate debate, it will cost them the next election for sure.
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    3:22pm
    What! toot2000 - you think voters are going to forget Labor's - pink bats saga with resulting in 4 deaths,? the half finished building projects, ? giving BORROWED money away like they were Santa Claus,? & opening the gates for illegals costing taxpayers $billions, ? & causing this country's biggest (unnecessary) deficit??
    And just concentrate on the $7 co payment?? Well...... I don't think so.....
    Adrianus
    15th Nov 2014
    3:37pm
    It sounds funny when you say it like that, but I guess it's true. Those railing against the co-payment are Shorten puppets who are rusted on labor voters. And probably have been all their lives.
    Paulodapotter
    15th Nov 2014
    3:49pm
    Ah, the pink bats saga. I give you $50 and you get drunk and bash up your husband. So it's my fault for giving you $50, right? Poor bugger me! The insulation of houses will probably save hundreds of the elderly this summer given the projected heat expectancy. With all the given building projects throughout this country, there are hundreds of work related deaths every year. So who is ultimately responsible for the unfortunate deaths of those workers? The government, because they provided the finance? The worker, because he didn't check to see if the power was off? The employer who did not train his workers to work safely? The recipient because he or she was too lazy to check out the bona fides of the company doing the installation? I'm afraid this whole Royal Commission was a huge propaganda exercise. The present government won't send Australians to deal with the Ebola crisis. I wonder why? Perhaps, just perhaps, they don't want to happen to them what they worked so hard and expensively to do to the last government. The greatest thing the last government did was to provide the opportunity for people to insulate their homes without cost.

    As for the illegals? I guess you don't know it's perfectly legal for anyone to seek asylum in another country, so how can they be illegals. The illegals fly in on a visa and overstay their welcome and there's a hell of a lot more of them that we have incarcerated into mainland and island concentration camps, men, women and children who did not more wrong but to use their initiative to seek our help. These camps and our border protection policy is what is costing us billions of dollars unnecessarily.

    However, Miss Aisle, you are not alone in your xenophobia or ignorance as we have a country full of yobbos who share your opinion. In fact, I would go so far as to say, it is your ilk that got the present bunch of intellectual deserts into power and you deserve all you get. Have a great day. :)
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    5:18pm
    Labor didn't do enough planning/organizing with the pink bats - just rush, rush -
    making everyone down the line rush - if they wanted the work.
    Then, why not borrow the massive amt. involved & so future generations pay massive
    interest on it, before giving it away - free.
    Then of course, the fires in the homes resulting from the bats, followed by
    the massive amt. invloved in checking the homes that didn't catch on fire!
    Adrianus
    15th Nov 2014
    5:36pm
    The compensation bill came to over $60m.
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    5:40pm
    C'mon pauloderpotter, you have to dig up a better comparison than the $50 one!
    After the first death of a young man, bells should have rung - & loudly!
    But what happened - no in depth investigation, no change of plan, no making sure
    to take more time & care. Not after the 1st, not after the 2nd, not after the 3rd.
    It was a complete failure from start to finish - nothing is worth the death of 4 young men who needlessly died because of orders from the top!
    As for illegals, - the real asylum seekers cannot afford to catch planes/boats for
    halfway around the world, - they're still waiting in refugee camps until the west
    INVITES them !
    If you don't know why people from primitive countries pay $thousands to get here
    (bypassing other countries) - then you haven't got your brain in gear.
    Our camps & border protection policies are costing us $billions,
    but how many trillians would it cost us if the amt. of people illegally entering our
    country kept rising at a dramatic rate ???
    200,000 entered our land illegally during the Rudd/Gillard era !
    Time you got a grip on reality!
    alfie
    15th Nov 2014
    5:08pm
    which is better...a freebie that can be abused, cost money, have debts and pay interest? ..... or pay a small amount for services, have no debt, pay no interest, and interest saved is used to increase pension payments, for building hospitals, roads, etc, etc... you decide.
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    5:45pm
    If only labor voters could read your comment & understand it with your logic ?
    It's just a bit of common sense, which sadly, some are lacking.

    15th Nov 2014
    7:26pm
    Never read so much bull sh... in my life, may be Paulodapotter can tell us what getting drunk and the labour govt pink bats saga has in common?
    The labour govt, Rudd and Co, is 100% responsible and at fault, acted as the bull out of the gate, as is usual for any labour govt, get an idea, but forget to properly plan it and for him or her to state the houses were insulated at no cost, who does he think paid for it, the Fairies or the Tax-payer?
    As for sending Australians overseas straight away to deal with the Ebola crisis, another labour idea, bull out of gate, but forgetting how to get infected Personel back to this Country safely and with a minimal cause of bringing Ebola and infecting Australia!
    As for the illegals, it becomes illegal if you bypass other countries to get to Australia especial for economical purposes.
    As for xenophobia and ignorance and having a country full of yobbos, it will be a honour to be called a Yobbo by you, as I am ready to give a hand to save AUSTRALIA from you and labour for the sake of my Kids and Grand Children
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    8:16pm
    Oh, sanity at last... common sense lives again!
    Paulodapotter
    15th Nov 2014
    10:51pm
    If you can't see the analogy, then it goes a long way in explaining why you think and the way you do. There's no point in trying to explain it, you would never get it. But, again, thanks for making me feel better about myself having read your comments and I'm gratified you identify with the yobbo element. The centre of Australia certainly is a very big desert.
    miss aisle
    16th Nov 2014
    7:46am
    paulodapotter, Your analogy shows your blase/aloof attitude when trying to
    justify labor's tragic, lack of planning when it comes to 4 young mens' lives.
    It's what I call "man's inhumanity to man".
    miss aisle
    16th Nov 2014
    7:49am
    If the only way you can feel better about yourself is to compare yourself to others
    (& imagine them being inferior) well, I pity your sad life.
    miss aisle
    16th Nov 2014
    2:49pm
    paulodpotter, the analogy shows blatant disregard & disrespect for human life.
    I think even if one of the young men was your friend or relation, your attitude
    would still be the same.
    You're obviously devoid of any empathy or compassion for anyone, including yourself:
    as you can only feel better about yourself - at someone else's expense.
    Reeper
    15th Nov 2014
    7:36pm
    Sadly there are many who worship Socialism in the form of the ALP who do not seem to remember what ALP governments have traditionally done - sent the country to the financial dogs. Socialism does exactly what any other government will do but won't pay for it; they wait until they lose power, have the new government pay the debts and become unpopular with ALP voters then get back into power for another term of spending.
    Will some of you people out there just look at the bigger picture - a new ALP government will still have to find ways to pay for the excesses of Rudd and Gillard who paid for your votes. We now have a daily interest on the ALPs borrowing that matches the GDP of a small nation.....Socialism only has one winner - the people who run it!
    miss aisle
    15th Nov 2014
    8:23pm
    More good, simple common sense.....
    If only labor supporters had an open mind for awhile & looked at the bigger picture
    you are talking about..
    Paulodapotter
    15th Nov 2014
    10:46pm
    Ah I see the yobbo element is alive and well. Keep it up folks, I love to watch people shoot themselves in the foot. Not one of you based your comments on any research other than supplied by yobbo commentators like Andrew Bolt and Allan Jones. These two guys laugh at you lot all the way to the bank. They make a living out feeding the bunkum you soak up like the poor naive suckers you are. They don't even believe in the garbage they spout forth for your consumption. As a mate of mine, Rod James, used to say as he sauntered into the ABC offices of a morning, "It's all entertainment folks. There's no business like show business....."
    Paulodapotter
    15th Nov 2014
    11:08pm
    Ah, another playing the old socialism ticket. I don't know whether you've noticed, but we've moved on from that obsolete distinction between capitalism and socialism. We got rid of the red under the bed, cause we found out he was never there. We even helped kill a few million invisible reds in Vietnam out of fear they would find their way here. They did of course, as boat people, who we now accept as fair dinkum Aussies. Now we've got to get rid of the socialism that caused such terrible impositions like the pension, social security, government funded health services, superannuation, education for the underprivileged, etc, etc, etc. How dare they! Lets get rid of the socialism now so we can live just like .... Damn! I can't think of a country that doesn't have socialism at its core ... ummm ... the yanks? No, um, I think they are going the way of socialism too ...Obamacare? Gee, the Republicans and the Teaparty (Yankee Yobbos) better get rid of him, eh?
    miss aisle
    16th Nov 2014
    7:53am
    Time to get new glasses, paulodapotter - so you can see the light !
    Adrianus
    16th Nov 2014
    9:01am
    Paulodapotter,

    Don't you find it strange that those who are the loudest preachers of socialism and social equality are wealthy by any measure? I guess that thought may not have occurred to you?
    It seems social equality goes hand in hand with criminal activity.
    Your choice of the word 'yobbo' to describe others who disagree with you is an indication that you could be one of those top feeders who believe in social equality as long as you get more equality than your neighbour.
    Your assertions are full of flaws and your $50 example is a nonsense, not fitting of the intellectual you purport to be. We may be yobbos but we can detect insincerity.

    16th Nov 2014
    7:51pm
    to paulodapotter, are You really that dumb or are you trying to sound intelligent, labour rooted this country ever since Whitlam got voted in, I had 12 months work ahead of me till the day Whitlam on the Saturday, was voted in, the next Monday there was none, You could not get a seat on a plane out of this country in the weeks following his election and surprise, surprise, two years later the chickens came home to roost, Labour has not got a clue how to run a chuck raffle, let alone a country , like AUSTRALIA, which was at the time the PEARL of this world, till Whitlam and his mates, took over this beautiful Country, remember them, trying to get a loan of the middle East sharks, our banks still get nightmares when You ask them.
    Remember the 19% interest charges, Hawke, Keating, remember Rudd and dear old Gillard,
    or closer to home, Kirner, Hey Australia, wake up, unless You put Your shoulder to the wheel, You may as well forget You lived in the most beautiful and striking Country of this World, AUSTRALIA.
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    8:50pm
    NO !! Remind Us !!
    particolor
    16th Nov 2014
    9:18pm
    I'm just Glad I didn't win Your chuck Raffle !!!
    Paulodapotter
    16th Nov 2014
    10:44pm
    Poor ol' Heemskerk99, you think I'm a labour voter, don't you? I don't think any true politicians know how to run a chook raffle and I doubt you do either. Yes, I remember all the same things you do, but I choose to recognise those things that changed Australia for the better, while remembering the failures, like Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and who the decision makers were at the time. Hey Miss Aisle, it's this positive outlook I have that makes me such a miserable old bastard. Of course, we should get rid of that horrible left wing ABC and SBS too with all that dangerous multiculturalism. How dare they talk about social issues, those, those ..... foreign loving socialists! We should only have commercial channels all run by Rupert Murdoch, with top line journalists like Andrew Bolt and Allan Jones to tell me how to think. And, watch out for those dangerous Moslems that want to take over the country and get rid of Christmas and, and make us wear burqas and take over our schools and abattoirs. Heenskerk99, I can tell you things you can't even imagine, because you don't have the knowledge or the background. I doubt, you've ever run a company. You've never mixed with people from all walks of life in their own countries. You've not had a decent education. You've never been a creator or builder, but you do believe what you read in the Murdoch press, see on commercial TV and hear on shock jock radio. We share one thing in common and that is I have been unemployed under labour, but I've never taken advantage of the dole. It's for those who need it. I've always been fortunate enough to be able to generate an honest living, but that's just circumstances. There's an amazing number of things we can do to make Australia a better place, but it takes courage, something that labour presently lacks and intellect and selflessness, that the 'power at all costs' LNP lacks. We need to deal with climate change despite the nay sayers. We need to develop manufacturing industries (my self interest here). We need to make our health system more accessible for the not so well off and we need to get rid of tuition fees at a tertiary level as they have in almost every other advanced country. This is not socialism, this is not only a human right, but good economic sense. A country won't grow on the knowledge of yobbos and workers can't work if they're unwell physically and mentally. Unless we develop our secondary industries particularly around renewable energy and help tackle climate change, all the b......t we have been discussing here becomes meaningless. If we start from such a low base in comparison to the rest of the world, we have Buckley's chance of catching up. Those of us who can, have to stop blaming governments and start exercising personal responsibility. If this makes me an idiot, then so be it, but I ain't no yobbo. :)

    I know this will fly over the head of my detractors, but, as an old teacher of mine used to say, "If you throw enough mud, some of it will stick!"
    miss aisle
    16th Nov 2014
    10:57pm
    I think paulodapotter is laying in on a bit thick - needs people to notice him,
    so (like he said repeatedly) he can feel better about himself!
    I agree, unfortunately, everytime Liberals took Australia 2 steps forward, the nutters who "needed a change or needed extra change" voted Labor in, dragging us 3 or 4 steps backwards.
    No wonder Labor people like the red colour ?? they're constantly putting us in the red!
    That is, after Liberals used blood, sweat & tears to drag us out of the sewer -
    again & again! But it's proving an overwhelming challenging this time.
    What amazes me - many Labor voters turn a blind eye to Labor stuff-ups - large, small & massive, but nitpick every word or idea from Liberals??
    miss aisle
    16th Nov 2014
    11:07pm
    You've Hit the nail on the head, heemskerk99
    Jen
    17th Nov 2014
    10:04am
    Totally agree Paulodappiter.
    Paulodapotter
    16th Nov 2014
    11:52pm
    A little turn of humour there Miss Aisle. Well done! Oh and about stuff ups. Which side of politics hasn't got a record in that department? I suppose you think assisting in the slaughter of 3-4 Million Vietnamese and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis was just an honest mistake. Both wars fought on lies perpetrated by conservative governments and causing countless broken homes here in Australia with more to come after Afghanistan. The cost of these mistakes on the taxpayer makes anything Labour has done pale into insignificance. Not to mention the ongoing costs of our involvement cleaning up our mistakes in Iraq with ISUS on the move. Aren't we being a little one-eyed here?
    particolor
    17th Nov 2014
    10:12am
    All The Way with LBJ !!
    miss aisle
    17th Nov 2014
    11:53am
    There's mistakes, & then there's MISTAKES, paulodapotter.

    I say the proof is in the pudding -

    which side of politics haven't got a clue with fiscal policies & everytime they're in
    power, bring us down into the red ?

    which side fails to plan & research properly making decisions on the run!
    Without proper research or planning! And when all else fails - who GIVES the money or pink bats away ! Using money that hasn't even been earned by taxpayers yet! With no thought about repayment of the borrowed money, let alone the
    INTEREST on it! No thought of future generations having to pay it back ??

    But it's only when it looks like Australia is going so deep in the sewer, by Labor's
    inept handling of finances & policies, that some voters quickly return to Liberal!

    Liberals didn't win at the last election because of Tony Abbott's charisma, no -
    some Labor voters took their blinkers off & were concerned for our future as a
    country, because of the trail of utter chaos left by labor leaders!

    And... which political party continually cleans up labor's mess,
    having to make unpopular decisions, has carefully thought out policies,
    returning our country's finances back into the black - (AGAIN & AGAIN & AGAIN!)
    Labor will ALWAYS put our country into the red, - why ?
    They don't think things through!
    Adrianus
    17th Nov 2014
    12:34pm
    You can always rely on labor to be high spending and high taxing. It's in their DNA.
    Paulodapotter
    17th Nov 2014
    12:09pm
    Ah poor Miss Aisle is suffering from strategic memory loss. I think it's time for a change of name for Miss Aisle to Sen (sort for Senior) Aisle. Do you remember the black hole left by the LNP that Treasurer Keating had to fill after John Howard's first attempt as leader of the coalition? This led to the necessary step of floating the dollar, which resulted in the high interest rates at the time. Howard didn't have the guts to float the dollar which was so overvalued that our deficit in comparison then makes the deficit now look like chicken feed. Labour inherited Howard's massive mistake and it took Labour several years to lift us out of the bog. Now, I've got plenty more where that came from, every bit of which can be supported by evidence. I have no love for either party having been President of the Young Australia Country Mackay Branch during the Vietnam War in the early 70's just before Whitlam got us out of that mess. The more you write Sen Aisle, the sillier you look so keep it up. What was that you said about me wanting to be noticed? You got that wrong. I want you to be noticed.
    miss aisle
    17th Nov 2014
    12:45pm
    If my words are noticed I'll be happy!
    particolor
    17th Nov 2014
    4:07pm
    Paulo.. I keep dropping Subtle hints to Ranting's I see on here All The Time but it makes no difference ! I get Ignored !! They still think the Fuhrer can do no wrong ??..
    Paulodapotter
    17th Nov 2014
    2:31pm
    There we are. We have something in common after all. :)
    Paulodapotter
    17th Nov 2014
    3:42pm
    Now it's your turn, Frank. Do I remember rightly, wasn't it the LNP that introduced a 10% GST? Whose DNA was operating there? I'm not saying it was a bad thing, but a blanket tax of 10% was a hell of a whack. Now watch closely, because, despite Phoney Tony's protestations, the GST will be broadened and/or increased by his government. Phoney Tony's record of lying makes Julia Gillard look quite saintly. Of course, you'd say it was all Labour's fault. This is the standard LNP line. Problem is, the economists and those that know what's going on, disagree. Isn't Mr Rabbit, as Julia appropriately calls him, a confidante of paedophile protector, Cardinal Pell? You can always judge a man by the company he keeps. I'll extend my list: - Scott Morrison - human rights violator - torturer of men, women and children. John Howard, active participant in an illegal war and co-conspirator of another. George Brandis, unmitigated bigot and supporter of unwinding racial vilification laws. Christopher Pyne, educated under the no tuition fees of the seventies and eighties, mincing hypocrite extraordinary over the rights of people to free tertiary tuition. Greg Hunt, destroyer of an ETS and likely killer of the Great Barrier Reef with his support of ADANI's involvement in the development of the Galilee Basin and Abbot Point. ADANI is an Indian company that has an environmental record that should scare the living s..t out of anyone that sees value in this country's environment. Peter Dutton, who ideologically does not believe in government funded health and who believes in natural selection as the determinant of who survives and who doesn't. The $7 co-payment is only the tip of the iceberg. There is a list of dubious past ministers like the cadaver, Philip Ruddock, that oversaw the incarceration of nearly 200 Australian citizens in Immigration Detention camps by mistake under their "successful" border policies. This is not to mention children that were held in detention for up to five years under his stewardship. No wonder this ex-president of Amnesty International appears haunted by his actions such that he now looks like a dead man walking. The one thing I can say for labour is that they are hopeless at hiding their dirty washing. The LNP are masters of concealment. I bet you know nothing of all this, Frank, eh? You swallow the garbage of the standard LNP line because you've never looked beyond it. There will always be those who support one team regardless of what they do because they really don't know what they do. People who think, don't accept the standard line, but think for themselves. Can you do that, Frank?
    Paulodapotter
    17th Nov 2014
    4:30pm
    Hey Particolor, I can see you enjoy the entertainment and, by the very fact you drop only subtle hints, it's obvious you've been around and are a bit of a thinker. You could bite the bullet and give the yobbos, or me, a not so gentle nudge. We vocal ones are simply venting our frustration at things over which we have little control. I guess it's a form of therapy for us. It's so bloody hot up here at the moment, this beats slipping down to the pottery and throwing some clay ... at someone. :-)
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    10:33pm
    I hope the Greek doesn't come out and You start Trashing the Best China in the Fireplace ??
    Adrianus
    20th Nov 2014
    7:30pm
    Both sides wanted the GST. Australia has a very low level of consumption tax compared to any country.
    I am beginning to think there is a core group of labor supporters on this website! This group cannot think for themselves. They simply act as an echo for the Unions.

    Hello?







    Hello!

    17th Nov 2014
    5:48pm
    after reading the rantings of paulodapotter and how hot it was, me thinks it fried his brain if he ever had one.
    Paulodapotter
    17th Nov 2014
    7:44pm
    Gee that's very witty, mein herr. Have you got anything worthwhile to say or are you so bereft of intellectual capacity, all you can do is reveal how poorly read you are? You're not even as clever as Sen Aisle. I hope you continue with your comments, though I do feel a tad disappointed you don't realise how limited you sound. However, I'm sure Particolor has got a chuckle out of it by now. Come on mate, give me the benefit of your incredible knowledge. Tell me how Labour managed to kill only four young fellows by daring to encourage people to insulate their homes. Silly blighters, they should have offered to insulate all the Iraqi homes during the last Gulf War. They might have caught up to the LNPs tally.
    Caky
    17th Nov 2014
    10:37pm
    If this Government spent One hundred Million Dollars for the Security of the G20 why are they crying poor?????
    Paulodapotter
    17th Nov 2014
    11:49pm
    Haven't you heard Caky? It's all Labour's fault. Have a listen to the measured and knowledgeable statements of Heemskerk99, Miss Aisle and Frank. In fact, everything's labour's fault if you can read their subtle and insightful take on the subject of finance.
    Abby
    18th Nov 2014
    7:16am
    Caky
    Try more like more than 400 million that was spent on G20 in Brisbane.
    Paulodapotter
    18th Nov 2014
    2:19pm
    I think you will find that the costs of benefits has no relationship to the costs of putting it together. It was an incredible opportunity missed. How we managed to do that despite the size of the elephants in the room (Climate Change & Ebola) is a mystery to me. However, it did go a long way in showing how well the average Aussie public servant can organise a chuck.. er.. chook raffle. Instead we heard how Australian is leading the charge against corporate tax evaders. Now there's a dramatic outcome, not. Now the G20 pledges to raise Global economic growth by 2.1% above present anticipated levels. i wonder if that is before or after the US goes to the wall financially again dragging down the rest of the world, as is inevitable given the rate at which they are printing money and increasing debt (along with us). All these great achievements due to the charismatic, eloquent and insightful speakers as our leader and his treasurer. Yish!
    Paulodapotter
    18th Nov 2014
    2:23pm
    But that's all right, we'll get it all back with a $7 co-payment when we go to the doctor. Get sick everyone, so we can pay our debts!
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    10:27pm
    OOOW ! I've been Dry Preaching all day !!

    18th Nov 2014
    6:08pm
    paulodapotter reminds me of the show dumb, dumber but his latest comment is the dumbest of all, can't even call him a drongo, he is to dumb for that.
    Paulodapotter
    18th Nov 2014
    11:58pm
    Keep it up, fella. Your insights make Abbott sound almost intelligent. Have you any fiscal insights as to what Australia should do to improve its economic future? They haven't withheld your pocket money again, have they? Now you just pop off and take your medication. You'll be all right.
    particolor
    19th Nov 2014
    10:40pm
    I think Tones has CUT Supporters Benefits ?? A couple are missing lately !!
    unicorn
    20th Nov 2014
    3:30pm
    Bring on the next elextion, please I am sick of Abbott just introducing anything he or Joe feels like it, I could not agree more with Dotty.
    particolor
    20th Nov 2014
    7:06pm
    I just paid 7 Bucks for a piece of Shark and a Few Chips ??