Asylum seeker rights

The UNHCR is "deeply concerned" with living conditions on Nauru and Manus Islands.

Asylum seeker rights

Despite asylum seeker processing centres being set up on Nauru and Manus Island with Australian money and resources, the Australian Human Rights Commissioner, Gillian Triggs, has been advised by the Solicitor-General, the Federal Government’s top legal advisor, that she does not have the right to visit either island.

The advice given to Prof Triggs’ office states that her jurisdiction is only over people on Australian soil and because Nauru and Manus Island are not part of Australia, she cannot gain access to asylum seekers to address their complaints. Instead, she has to consider and act on asylum seeker complaints from Australia without first-hand knowledge.

This debacle has occurred just one month after the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) visited, and released reports about both island processing centres, finding significant legal and operational inadequacies which were “deeply concerning”.

Read more from The Age.
Read more from the UNHCR.

Opinion: A government in shambles

The Federal Government placed all their eggs in one basket with the Malaysian swap deal. When it failed, due to being ruled unlawful in late 2011, the government took a year to react by re-opening Nauru and Manus Island to receive asylum seekers.

After reading the UNHCR report into both islands, the conditions sound suitable for short-term detention, but not years of detention. Asylum seekers have many rights and it is absurd that the Australian Human Rights Commissioner is not allowed to protect and improve conditions for individuals seeking asylum who are being processed in off-shore Australian detention centres. The Federal Government should be approaching the governments of Papua New Guinea and Nauru to grant Gillian Triggs permission to hear the complaints of asylum seekers in-person and to view the conditions for herself.

What seems to be the most concerning issue, for both the asylum seekers and the general public, is the indefinite timeframe being imposed on asylum seekers held on the islands and the time it takes for claims to be processed. I cannot fathom how it could take more than a few months to research and process the majority of asylum seeker claims. The Federal Government needs to review it’s current procedures and enforce a timeframe for processing every claim.

Should the Australian Human Rights Commissioner be granted access to Nauru and Manus Island to address the complaints of asylum seekers?

Comments to this thread will be heavily moderated. Please refrain from racist remarks and personal attacks.





    COMMENTS

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    Taskid
    5th Mar 2013
    11:33am
    The saddist thing about the asylum seekers who come by boat is the way they have been demonised into a huge problem, when of course they are a very small number in the scheme of things. The making of this cruel political football is more of an indictment on our nation and its politicians than anything any individual asylum seeker may do.

    It shows the heart of our nation and it is not in good shape.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    11:56am
    Very strong detrimental Oz society implications and I agree 110%.

    Nevertheless, even 1 illegal immigrant is one illegal immigrant regardless of how they arrived in the country. Meditteranean countries have for a long time and are continuing at this moment to attempt to control illegal immigration. The USA has huge issues with illegal immigration. So, just 1 illegal immigrant is one too many.

    Therefore nobody wants to see Oz faced with an uncontrolled immigration issue as it adds to or even causes, not resolves, so much human misery and even deaths. That these past two governments have failed to cohesively work together to resolve illegal immigration via boats [or any means] is reprehensible, deplorable, condemnable and even criminal. Makes me ashamed to be an Australian.
    motaleon
    5th Mar 2013
    4:13pm
    Taskid, your bleeding heart overlooks far too much. Anyone who would not fight for his country isn't fit to live in it - perhaps that is why they are coming here. They would rather have Aussies do it for them while they lap up the lifestyle that rightfully belongs to Australians. How many of them would enlist in the Australian defence forces if Oz were under attack?
    The economic refugees should be sent packing out of hand, and the others should be given white feathers and sent to join them. Orderly entry only!
    Precious
    8th Mar 2013
    1:11pm
    aquaytrek, Thats why our civiised society has laws...without laws we go back to the Dark Ages....crusades and all of that..lol I agree as well with your commen ts and may miore would agree as well if not intimidated by so called gooy tooshoes etc....but things wil not change where this is concerned as already the pressure of huge numbers of people around the world in these countries alone will be like an avalchanche on a ski slop and I daresay some of will see this begin to unfold unfortunately....it is already there unfolding for all to see in reality..this was prophesied after the last war..by some europeans who had great foresight..just try and enjoy our lives and what we have now and not worry too much about other things...I do...now I never did though and spent horror nights in terror of stuff which never came to happen...x
    Precious
    8th Mar 2013
    1:46pm
    Yes it really...I have spoken to many if them in restaurants in Shopping malls and they paint a very different picture or rather how they look at it all...They are generally family living people and quietly spoken and nothing like what we presume......Again as I commented earlier they don`t appear to have any agendas at all only a general moving on with their lives into our side of the world...I may sound cras and giveng up hope but I really felt that deepy...its like our Bible said that nations will join nations or words to that effect but it is the religious thingy that will decide how peaceable it will become...I heard some one giving them large amounts of money to follow this tren or......also many have very nice english accents ?
    student
    9th Mar 2013
    12:05pm
    Precious,I whole heartedly agree with you however, please leave the Bible out of the forum. People do not have to have a faith to be compassionate and humanitarian but unlike I have never approach an asylum seeker and engaged in a dialogue, however, I do know people who have and they say the same as you
    " ... They are generally family living people and quietly spoken and nothing like what we presume...... ..." The media (and some politicians ) demonise these innocent people for their own gain. In an unstable political country, the educated people are NOT encouraged to help govern the country. That is why they (the educated) flee. They flee or die. The poor and destitute can not afford the passage to safety and they languish in the camps. The educated (the wealthy) are a threat to the political regime so they need to be killed. These people are traumatised before they arrive here and I am sure as hell they don't need the hostility and unfriendliness of a few bigoted Aussies. I read Pauline Hanson is thinking of sitting for Parliament again.
    Precious
    10th Mar 2013
    1:08am
    I read that in the UK these people have been on a payment of tywo hundred poounds a fortnight for about 3/4 years now and classed as un employable...they have developed so called mental problems, cannot understand our language or the learning of it...and over billions of pounds continually b eing drained from the UK government for them...what will be the answer I would love to hear of a solution......
    AmandaR
    14th Mar 2013
    7:41pm
    I agree with you taskid. Asylum seekers have been demonised for far too long. Since, at least, the 1970's, successive governments have failed to find a workable solution that does not involve long periods of encarceration for asylum seekers either here or off-shore, and faster processing times. Our politicians seem to be stuck on one of two solutions - turn back the boats or off-shore processing. It is a joke really. A solution is long overdue, 40+ years and counting...
    Reppie
    5th Mar 2013
    11:46am
    Agree with some of what you say Taskid, but there are other concerns re allowing the boat people into Australia. One of which is the potential health risks they may present, coming from places without the standards and immunisations here.

    The other is the fact, a lot of these people are not true refugees. How would such poverty stricken people come up with the thousands of dollars needed for an illegal attempt to enter Australia? Why throw passports overboard? (and other things).

    I'm sorry, but I believe take these people off the boats, burn the boats and fly them on the first plane back to where they came from. After some time maybe the attempts might lessen as the boats are less in numbers.

    I'm not a hard-ass, so don't think for a minute I am, but if they have the thousands of dollars needed to enter Australia illegally, why not try to enter legally, the hard way like lots of others. If they are knocked back, then they need to sort out why and if there is a solution, do it the hard way.

    If their lives are so dire where they come from, then surely even Nauru and Manus would be blessed relief. They need to stop whinging, do their time til its all sorted out our way, not make demands.
    gca
    5th Mar 2013
    12:13pm
    We spent large sums on refugees to the detriment of our own long suffering taxpayer citizens. The huge sums spent on refugees could fix some of our problems with aged care, education and health.

    Get the refugees off the gravy train. Require them to work and give them a loan (HECS style) to set themselves up in Australia. If they can't start paying back the loan in a couple of years then they are not really making a commitment to be part of Australia. Send them back from where they came! Any refugee with the money to buy a berth on a boat should be able (and willing) to make a financial contribution to their living costs.
    missmarple
    5th Mar 2013
    3:51pm
    I agree with Taskid and Reppie, the TRUE Refugees are thankful for what they have been given or get, it is the ILLEGAL'S who cause so much mayhem, if the do gooders are so concerned with the way things are done (apart from sending the ILLEGALS back to where they came from) let them have them live with them in their homes and take full responsability for them
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    4:09pm
    the ALP offered some compensation of $300 or something if you took them in but that has also apparently failed.
    Supernan
    5th Mar 2013
    12:01pm
    We forget that all Governments react to what the public says. The public responses to the plight of the asylum seekers was so negative its not surprising our Government react so badly & so slowly to these poor people. Until we all show the Gov we want asylum seekers treated better, they will never do the right thing. I cant see why these people are not released into the Community to work and make new lives, happy & grateful to Australia for a new start.

    People tell me this would create a risk of terrorists entering our country. Well, we have a small business & had 14 Afghani clients. They had been in detention for years. When they were released, they were given huge bills from the Government to cover the costs of their detention. So by the time they sent money back to their families & paid some to the Gov they were really struggling to get on their feet. Were they bitter ? Yes they were ? Did they like Australia & Australians ? No. How would you feel escaping from terrorism, being detained for years & having to pay for it. Will they make happy citizens ? What do you think ?
    gca
    5th Mar 2013
    12:19pm
    Okay, is the answer is to send them home or to release them into the community when they arrive and require them to work?
    student
    16th Mar 2013
    8:12am
    children sewing their lips together because they have a mental illness. Well, I suppose Australia has given them something to add to the trauma from their home land. The parents can afford to pay the fare here because they are NOT uneducated peasants. Sure there may be some bad asylum seekers, but would you risk your life and the lives of your family to get away from the trauma of your home land if it was not the only solution?? This racism being shown is worse than when we had the White Australia policy. Maybe if we showed a little compassion we would see what wonderful things (food for example) they can bring to our culture. We are a rich country so let's give to those less fortunate.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    12:01pm
    The legal quagmire that these past governments have become involved in is an absolute farce. Our taxes pay for the best minds in this country and internationally to make decisions that are correct. The ALP have been made to look like absolute fools in their mismanagement of the issue. I and many others are absolutely bewildered as to why this should be the case. Plus sadly there is no end in sight until the ALP are dismissed from office. The NLP seem to be able to make decisive decisions that stand legal scrutiny as they have done in the past.
    student
    16th Mar 2013
    8:21am
    aqua, if this was treated as a humanity problem and not 'illegal entry' political beat-up, we, the voting public, would not be manipulated into the 'fear' campaign of hate. The politicians (especially the current LNP) beat up fear and greed ... 'they' are getting more than I am. I really am ashamed/bewildered that supposedly educated people can not see common sense.
    Taskid
    5th Mar 2013
    12:02pm
    Reppie I guess from our situation of comfort and security it is easy to sit in judgement. I cannot even imagine some of the situations from which these people have fled. Should we worry about health, money etc or should we open our hearts to these who through no fault of their find their nations torn apart. I think the measure of a nation is the depth of compassion it has for the vulnerable on our planet.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    12:14pm
    Q - Opinion: A government in shambles - A = ?
    FrankC
    5th Mar 2013
    6:23pm
    Did anyone see the programme on SBS called 'Go back to where you came from". It was certainly an eye opener for the 6 Aussies involved in the 'experiment, and I'm sure, for the viewing public. All these people who classify as refugees didn't have 'two pennies to rub together', so how are these others turning up with thousands of dollars for a dodgy boat trip. What are these running from?? Salaries in these Asian countries are a pittance ,if you have a job,and cost of living so low. It's like a checkout chic trying to save $20.000 for a boat trip. How long would that take?
    Aloysius
    5th Mar 2013
    12:02pm
    It's Ok for our soldiers to live in tents in Aghanistan fighting for the people who would rather flee than sort out their own country. It seems that hotels and motels are the appropriate accommodation for them whlie they try to change our society into the one they left.
    Anonymous
    5th Mar 2013
    2:12pm
    It is also OK seemingly for our soldiers to be killed by the very people these so nice boat people, they are there to help.

    To the point that within their own camp area they are herded into a small area they can defend themselves with armed guards so can even get some much needed sleep.
    lasaboy
    5th Mar 2013
    12:06pm
    Of course the commissioner has no rights to visit, although both islands are Australian protectorates, the have their own legal system and rights, it would be like saying ok we have sunk thousands of dollars into an overseas country now we want to take over not gunna happen, besides the whole system is a nightmare, besides the point that some 20% are actual fugitives while the rest are trying to jump start the system to get into Australia through the backdoor, weather or not they are entitled to get here in the first place. Personally I am sick to death of the lies and stupidity of OUR pollies, who use this situation as and for their own agenda's, the 1920's, 30's, 40's & 50's pollies were guilty of making huge mistakes, but at least they tried to better the lot of the average Aussie, with many crossing the floor to support a good idea, the current pollies are restricted to PARTY politics which govern everything, cross the floor to many times or refuse to support the party in any way and you are out in the cold, what we need is a new party, governed by basic honest ideals, nor agenda based politics aimed at the governing minority's, but of we can't get two pollies to agree which toilet to use, let alone govern a country as diverse as we are
    geomac
    5th Mar 2013
    2:21pm
    Manus Island and Nauru are not Australian protectorates . Nauru is a nation state and Manus Island is part of PNG . 20% are actual fugitives while the rest are trying to get in the backdoor , what does that mean or what are you trying to say ? Can I assume you are saying 80% are economic immigrants like the 34,000 a year we get from NZ ? By fugitives you mean refugees or fugitives from justice or persecution in their native land . 90% of asylum seekers are found to be genuine in their claims . I,m only guessing at what you meant .
    Aloysius
    5th Mar 2013
    3:48pm
    The assessment process leaves a lot to be desired. The applicants get legal representation at taxpayer expense. The "defending" solicitors are usually junior officers of the Solicitor General's office with little support. The courts give the benefit of the doubt to the applicants who have lost their papers. The recent parliamentary mission to Sri Lanka returned with a strong view that Sri Lankan asylum seekers were economic refugees seeking an easy path to a new life. Genuine asylum seekers need only take a 30km trek to India, who accepts them. The hazardous trip to Australia is paid for by the asylum seekers who don't appear to have difficulty in paying for an air fare. They take the boat because they have difficulty getting a visa or don't wish to take their turn.
    Reppie
    5th Mar 2013
    12:14pm
    Supernan, I am sure most of us would love a world where everyone is free to come and go whenever and wherever they like, but ...

    I would hate one of my family members to end up with a disease which is long eliminated from this country through immunisation, and our good standards, in comparison to a lot of the world. We also have freedom and free speech which everybody has the right to.

    As for releasing these people into the community without checking out who they are and where they are from, giving jobs ! What about the thousands of Australians currently unemployed, and the numbers grow daily with big companies either going overseas or closing down completely. Give our own citizens jobs first. Until we have almost full employment here, cut right back on any immigrants, unless on compassionate grounds maybe for a while eh? I know far too many people who have lost their homes when their jobs went, trying to raise their kids and look for work is darn near impossible, especially for single parents.

    Maybe we need to just stop being the country which puts up with all this nonsense, and become a little less considerate to all incoming permanents, (or would be's).

    Even on Manus and Nauru they are fed, clothed, paid, and provided with all they need until their applications are sorted out. Yes it takes time, but if life is so bad where they came from, they should be prepared, even happy to take this time and this process in their stride.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    12:26pm
    Well said - charity begins at home 1st - then if there is any left over it can be dished out to whoever needs it the most next. Charity cannot be delivered as if there is a forever filling up bucket. Even in Oz hospitals its called triage - categorizing into 3 levels of a) life threatening b) not life threatening c) pls wait patiently for assistance. That is what a compassionate humane society has - rules for peaceful living.

    The boat asylum seekers are playing on and manipulating the Oz society capabilities to supply compassion and use it to their own advantages because where they come from they have little or no compassion built into their respective societies. While they are allowed to keep coming in an uncontrolled fashion then this countries compassionate capacities will be and are being pushed to the limit. It is not limitless despite the urge to be so.
    Taskid
    5th Mar 2013
    1:21pm
    Hundreds of murders???? Where is your proof, comeon stop throwing cheap shots.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    1:34pm
    I am not 'throwing cheap shots' and I strongly object to being accused of that. How many have drowned or just disappeared since the ALP came into office ? You do the precise head count and report back on here - to help you start just last month apparently 100 thereabouts drowned of Sri Lanka; as was reported by the Sri Lankan government.
    Anonymous
    5th Mar 2013
    2:24pm
    Reppie once again - at last someone with common sense and a nice way of expressing it - even the bleeding hearts and lefties cant fault that delivery.
    geomac
    5th Mar 2013
    2:31pm
    457 visa jobs being used for work in Victoria where there are plenty of tradesmen out of work . A rort being used when 457 applications are to be used to fill a skills shortage not by hire labour firms which is what is happening .
    aquatrek How many people drowned in Howards time . I know of one boat going down with 300 dead . The 100 you mention were Burmese and the survivors were picked up by Sri Lankans and starvation was the cause of death , not enough supplies .
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    2:33pm
    http://www.abolishforeignness.org/blog/fortress-australia-asylum-seeker-and-migrant-death-and-detention-statistics
    Taskid
    5th Mar 2013
    12:19pm
    lasaboy Is it about our politicians or is it about we Australians. We presume they represent out views. Liberals want harsher treatment, Government want to gain political points, but show compassion, Greens bleat on about rights, but have no responsibility. Our government will reflect us. We cannot shift the blame. We have allowed them, even encouraged them in some cases to turn the plight of these people into a political football. Let us cop it sweet, we as a nation have failed.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    12:29pm
    WRONG - the NLP DO NOT WANT HARSHER TREATMENT for asylum seekers that attempt to invade the country illegally by boat - they want to stop the boats altogether as they sucessfully managed to do so in the past.
    Taskid
    5th Mar 2013
    1:10pm
    With lies - children overboard and harsh methods which brought Australia criticism for its breach of human rights.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    1:19pm
    whatever - a darn sight better outcome than the now hundreds of murders committed by the ALP
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    2:22pm
    http://www.abolishforeignness.org/blog/fortress-australia-asylum-seeker-and-migrant-death-and-detention-statistics
    wally
    5th Mar 2013
    12:20pm
    I agree with Taskid. I feel sorry for the asylum seekers who arrive by boat. I feel sorrier for the ones who drown on the way. At least the asylum seekers rotting away in Asian and African refugee camps are not likely to drown. So if the queue jumper asylum seekers want to avoid drowning, living in horrid tents, subjecting themselves to internet connection, mobile phones, medical and dental services that our taxpayers fund, they should go to the African or Asian refugee centres.
    More positively, the Afghani young men should have stayed home, joined their national army and have developed the backbone to defend their country instead of taking the cowards' way out and desert their homeland, leaving it and their fellow Afghanis to the tender mercies of the Taliban fanatics.
    Imagine what your response would be, if in 1941, a boat load of military age Pommies washed up at Cottesloe Beach and begged for asylum because they feared that they would be killed by the bombs the Germans were dropping on their country.
    Thank you K Rudd. As a consequence of your ill-considered do-gooder impulses and subsequent ill-considered knee jerk responses that you and your erstwhile deputy Gillard have put in place to deal with the GFC and the ban on livestock export, you will have left Australia worse off that it was when you came into office.
    Sylvia
    5th Mar 2013
    12:22pm
    I often read of refugee's rights, what about the people here who are Australian, with no where to live and no job's? waiting for operations and health care? we hear of young mothers living in their car because they can't find a home? we are all paying for these refugees to be cared for here, genuine refugee's are welcome, but if they are why would they throw their documents away before they can be processed? surely it would speed up their claims?
    I am not against anyone wanting a better life, if they are willing to work hard and abide by our laws, and to be genuine in their claims of seeking refuge, but the whole thing has got out of hand because of their own actions.
    Uncontrolled immigration will cause more problems than any one realises, we need to integrate and the way this is being handled the reverse is happening.
    So more control and if a refugee is denied residency, and they appeal, they must pay for that appeal themselves , if it is allowed they must repay the costs, and if denied they leave, this will save us millions on legal fees and lawyers.
    But if we don't look after our own Australians will be the dirt poor in this part of the world, Give our children their rights, and hope too.
    Of course our Human rights Commisioner should be allowed to see what is going on in the off shore detention camps, we pay for them, and therefore are responsible how they are managed.
    Aloysius
    5th Mar 2013
    1:02pm
    And we totally fund their legal representation in the never-ending appeals to soft courts who give the claimants the benefit of the doubt.
    motaleon
    8th Mar 2013
    5:10pm
    How does the beggar at the door presume to have rights? An appeal to charity is all that he may ask and there is no obligation to donate.
    piklo
    5th Mar 2013
    12:27pm
    Gooday people
    without sounding racist and agreeing with most of the comments made today I have to ask anyone that trys to enter or illigaly enters our great country has no rights to winge or demand their rights they have no rights we as australians do not have these rights if we tried to enter any other country the same way if they dont like it go back to where you come from dont stuff our way of life or our country up god bless australia
    lasaboy
    5th Mar 2013
    12:43pm
    there is a big difference between racism and what the legal system requires, I know only to well what racism in Oz is like, as I have Koori blood in me, but that is my problem no-one else's, I have never and will never ask anything extra from my country, not even for my kids, if I did not earn it I don't want it! That is the problem we have here, everyone wants their cut of the pie, including those overseas who look to us with greedy eyes
    Taskid
    5th Mar 2013
    12:31pm
    Piklo There is no such person as an "illegal" asylum seeker. That is fiction Tony Abbott and co have created, just as there is no "queque" - these are political fictional creations to bias your thinking.
    lasaboy
    5th Mar 2013
    12:39pm
    This is correct, but the system is in place that asylum seekers go through proper channels, they do not jump ahead (the supposed queue) by boat
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    12:43pm
    1 - the 'politically correct' terminology is 'unlawful'

    http://www.presscouncil.org.au/document-search/asylum-seekers/?locatorgroupid=662&locatorf..

    2 - Introduced specifically by the NLP ? I would like to see 'proof' of that as just 'blaming' anyone is rather 'biased' in itself.

    3 - there are indeed 'queues'

    http://www.immi.gov.au/migrants/family/capping-and-queuing.htm

    I hope that these facts help you have a better understanding of the asylum seeker terminology.
    lasaboy
    5th Mar 2013
    12:48pm
    if one more person mentions what is 'Politically' correct i will commit murder, these terms were created by well meaning people with NO idea or what they entailed, next they will be say9ing because I look white I can't call myself black!
    a number of Australians many years ago tried to breed us original Australians OUT of the picture thinking they were doing us a favour, that is where the stolen generation came from, look to the past to correct the future, not to some smart ass pollie who thinks he knows what is right
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    1:24pm
    pls dont murder the 'messenger' - the ALP are murdering unlawful asylum seekers as I type.
    student
    13th Mar 2013
    9:14pm
    aqua, I am sure lasaboy understands the plight of the asylum seeks as he is Indigenous. You don't need me to stand up for you lasaboy, you do a great job by yourself :) I hope my two Koori g/sons are as articulate and compassionate as you :)
    lasaboy
    5th Mar 2013
    12:34pm
    Taskid, I agree with you we all must accept that we played a part in this, but the problem is also that the pollies are NOT representing us, like Labor, a large number of us said no to the carbon tax, they still put it in place, following her agenda not ours, the Libs are no better, they are all tarred with the same brush, when they are not kissing babies, they are stealing their lollypops, I was asked years ago to stand for government, I refused as I am not dishonest enough and stand by my beliefs and ideals, to join this current system I would have had to compromise my beliefs and allow things to happen that I could never agree with, which means I would never get the vote in any case as most people are looking for what THEY can gain, not what is best for the country or people as a whole.

    Wally what comes to mind is the group of asylum seekers, that on being told they would be living in tents promptly got on a plane back to where they came from, there are many who have no right to be here at all, but the system allows them anyway, all these pollies are feathering their own nest, stuff Australia they will be retired on a great pension with perks by the time there is a major problem
    kianga0
    5th Mar 2013
    12:46pm
    After fleeing a country where life is too miserable mainly because of the laws, beliefs and customs of that country I see no problem in them migrating to our homeland, I do however think that they should all be required to integrate, as our past immigrants have done, and affirm under oath that they will abide by the laws and customs of Australia. If they wish to retain their previous customs and beliefs then they should go to a country which embraces those customs and beliefs.
    lasaboy
    5th Mar 2013
    12:55pm
    exactly, I have a huge number of family, friends and their kids who came to Oz after the second world war, not to mention the second third and forth generations, they integrated keeping their own religion and or beliefs, but they became Ozzies, a lot of the current refugees have come from countries where the rape of young girls or the murder of someone who disagrees with you, is accepted as everyday happens, this is NOT the sort of thing we need here, but we are ALREADY facing these things happening, one way would be to put wording into the refugee wording that should any o0f these people commits acts under our legal system, they will be returned to the country of origin, whether they have become supposed Australian citizens or not
    Taskid
    5th Mar 2013
    1:17pm
    kianga0 That is the problem - none of our political parties have been courageous enough to require that people who wish to be admitted here give allegience to Australia and its way of life and denounce anything which presents a risk to that way of life.
    Taskid
    5th Mar 2013
    1:17pm
    kianga0 That is the problem - none of our political parties have been courageous enough to require that people who wish to be admitted here give allegience to Australia and its way of life and denounce anything which presents a risk to that way of life.
    geomac
    5th Mar 2013
    2:46pm
    How do you propose enforcing the requirement of allegiance and way of life . Legally anyone has to be a resident for a few years before being allowed , yes allowed , to become a citizen . Whats this way of life ? Is it he Toorak toff , the footy fanatic , the hill song mob , the surf crowd or the bookish types ? I don,t like BBQs much and gave up the grog in 2000 so am I outside the aussie way of life ? Are libs part of our way of life yet need the nats to get 40 odd per cent of the vote . What about Labor who are in the low 30s at present or the Greens on 11% , which part of aussie life are those three different and varied Australian parties ? None are the same and disagree on certain things while agree on others . There is no definitive aussie way of life but plenty of myths and legends to blend with the reality . I,m aussie and have a long history through ancestors , long in OZ terms , so therefore my way of life is the Australian way surely ?
    Anonymous
    5th Mar 2013
    2:49pm
    Officially called the "Pledge of Commitment":

    From this time forward, under God,
    I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people,
    whose democratic beliefs I share,
    whose rights and liberties I respect, and
    whose laws I will uphold and obey.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    2:59pm
    a very good question geomac: citizenship ceremonies are an established platform for such an allegiance declaration. Yet they are a mismash of 'silly' stuff like Howards inclusion of cricket knowledge - what another governmental farcical proposition. [these bastards and bastardesses get huge incomes - unbelievable]. Allegiance to a queen that doesnt even visit very often !! Oz is caught in a time-warp with clinging vestiges/shadows/traces of the past and no real vision for the future.

    If only some 'white knight' [now there is a vestige phantom !!] would pop up and save the nation [are nations vestiges in this ever globalizing world ?]. Geomac you are indeed an Oz but as to what type is beyond definition'. As for 'converting' someone from the Islamic order to 100% accept this Oz culture of basic freedoms - may as well try to squeeze blood from a stone.
    Anonymous
    5th Mar 2013
    3:01pm
    Forgot to add they can leave out God.

    How many do and why when this is traditionally one of our values of our culture being a Christian/Judah country that is the question.
    student
    13th Mar 2013
    9:27pm
    not only do the asylum seekers have trauma from their own country and the journey to Australia, they also have mental illnesses as a legacy of their journey. Does anyone know the Dream Time?? The Aborigine religion?? A beautiful religion for a beautiful people. Aqua, IF you went to an Islamic country to live, would you adopt their laws and traditions??
    Jill
    5th Mar 2013
    12:55pm
    Totally!! Quite right KiangO! Well said (and blessedly brief)!
    littleredrose50
    5th Mar 2013
    1:15pm
    I have worked for 10 years in a detention centre with these people. let me tell you all something you don't know. The people arriving by boat have already sent their money, jewlery and 'good" clothing ahead of them to friends and relatives already in Australia. These people are not proper refugees but economical refugees because of the way their country is being mismanaged and they are part of the problem. They have no intention of adapting to our australian ways of life. as soon as they entered the door of the detention centre I worked in as a processing officer they asked where they could sign up for new teeth, glasses, to be paid to learn english and what companies supplied them with new clothes and a house and furniture. They were not interested in work.
    The long periods of detention occurr because of the system we have for processing these people. Firstly they have to be identified as they have destroyed all their papers. then they have 2 to 3 ways to appeal every decision of their applications if they are refused. They just apply on a different type of application and if refused they then appeal it up to 3 times. This is all paid for by legal aid...OUR legal aid. These people come here because they are under the impression everything is free to them in this country because they are refugees.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    1:22pm
    nothing like some 1st hand factual truth for a change from the waffling rubbish on here - thanks
    gca
    5th Mar 2013
    1:57pm
    Yep, take away the gravy train and see how many boat people we get. Give them a HECS style loan, require them to work and to start repaying the loan within a short period of time. No papers? No processing and no appeals! Any legal assistance should be through a loan, not free legal aid. Spend the money saved on looking after our pensioners.
    geomac
    5th Mar 2013
    2:54pm
    Nothing like 1st hand info backed up by proof . I can say I,m joe blow working on the mines or Jane working on detention centres .
    gca The work idea is sound but Morrison and
    Abbott wont wear it , no jobs , no english classes just detention .
    I,m a pensioner and by that I mean no large assets or part pension because of my super , plain ordinary pensioner . I pay my bills , eat well and my medication is under PBS so no hardship there . Now what exactly is it that I deserve more of ?
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    3:05pm
    @geomac: so you are calling in a very offhanded way littleredrose50 a liar ? pls have some trust - if someone says that they worked for 10 years in a detention centre environment then what do you want - their tax file number ?
    geomac
    5th Mar 2013
    3:22pm
    aquatrek
    Trust online is a difficult proposition . 10 years seems a long time considering the nature of the job together with the various closing and opening of centres . Remote locations , city locations and changing of firms contracted to do the work . 10 years in that field would be exceptional don,t you think ? Two gold watches worth in days gone by .
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    3:33pm
    do you 'trust' me geomac ? hehe granted, online blogging is a precarious forum for the faint hearted indeed !! more hehehe littleredrose50 might even be a saved asylum seeker for all that I/we know !!! I guess that now that you have lain down the 'challenge' it is up to littleredrose50 to respond or not
    geomac
    5th Mar 2013
    5:06pm
    When a person gives an opinion or view I take it at face value . When a person says they are a liberal or labor voter and I will never vote for them again because etc I automatically think BS . When rose says ten years it falls somewhere in between because its still an opinion based on an unlikely job period on the job , detention .
    AmandaR
    15th Mar 2013
    12:03am
    gca, you make an interesting point. Does anyone know whether, once granted asylum, there is a requirement to repay, or contribute to the recovery, of legal or other costs? Perhaps a system whereby asylum seekers are charged a fee for their upkeep and other costs, to be repaid much the same as HECS or a levy like Medicare, would be one way to discourage the boats? If asylum seekers who are found not to have a legitimate claim to asylum knew they would be incurring a debt to the nation they may reconsider getting on a boat in the first instance.
    joanmac
    5th Mar 2013
    1:22pm
    Some of the posts here sound like we have forgotten that our forebears, arrived here by boat, either as convicts, or free passengers looking for a better way of life who scraped up the fare to get here. And now like big kids we play “keep it off”, wanting it all for ourselves. Ever since white colonisation there has been this fear and loathing of new people. In the 19th century it was the Russians and the French who supposedly wanted our country. Then later it was southern Europeans (wogs and dagos), anybody Asian (chinks!) - all going to do us out of a job, bring diseases and cost the taxpayers a fortune, not to mention commit heinous crimes. It is not illegal to seek asylum in Australia no matter how you arrive. And in many countries facilities do not exist for refugees to line up in “orderly queues” to emigrate as migrants did in the 1960s. Indeed to be visibly fleeing could bring dire retribution. For goodness sake, after a cup of tea and a Bex, do some googling and check out the facts on asylum seekers on a reputable site, like a university or government information site, or even the Refugee Council and find out about the alleged benefits paid, diseases brought in, crimes committed and strange gods worshipped.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    1:29pm
    the word is 'unlawful' - implying that the asylum seekers have no valid visa for entry to Oz. If a refugee application fails subsequent to the arrival then they will be deported - it should be as simple as that but apparently not.
    Nobody seems to have the answer to that and the ALP policy is to keep them forcibly detained for up to 5 or more years offshore = barbaric for a start. Now that the facilities are overflowing the people are being let loose anywhere as was disclosed on Q&A last night.
    Reppie
    5th Mar 2013
    1:35pm
    Dear Joanmac, Are you really comparing the arrival of our rellies up to 200 years ago with the current day arrival of illegals from all places?

    Firstly, a lot of our rellies were shipped over as criminals, for stealing a loaf of bread or whatever, makes no difference. A lot were also free settlers. As for who paid their fares, well the Brits did I expect, or at least provided the bread and water for the trip. I for one am so glad I am here, not in England, Ireland, or France where my origins are.

    Another point is, in this 200 plus years, we have evolved a hell of a lot, we now have medicines, immunisations, quality standards, and the right and freedom of speech to object to the queue jumpers, who often have shady pasts. Why else would one risk life and limb for our way of life, and not go through the correct channels?

    Again, we have a standard of living here as good as any in the world, and better than much, despite our endless whinging about lack of jobs, income, even the weather!

    Seriously, just be thankful we are who we are, have what we have, especially our incredible lifestyle here, and support any govt. which wants these queue jumpers dealt with effectively, and without risk to our residents.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    1:41pm
    The early-mid 1800 arrivals to Oz were FORCED to leave areas like Kent because of the horrible living conditions then. The British government and the religious orders paid for the journeys so that the problem became - out of sight = out of mind. I have extensively researched my forebears and have proof of such events.
    Precious
    8th Mar 2013
    1:16pm
    Second reply...I love my heritage and hear everyday how the rain is falling wetc and how lucky we are here...The asylum seekers are moving acorss the plant because thats the way they think they should..I utterly believe that its the nature of the beast and another idea....I try and really believe this as having read much history and understand how peoples and religious groups behaved......however one thing to rememb er is that muslim does not and never will accept christian faith..,,,,
    biddi
    5th Mar 2013
    2:03pm
    I totally agree with you, Reppie. Hope the Liberals can put this right immediately after the
    Federal election. Can't understand why anyone would want KRudd back - he's the one responsible for dismantling the border protection policy.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    2:41pm
    If anyone on here takes 'offence' at my use of the term murder then let me clarify my viewpoint - any death anywhere has a causal factor be it medical or accidental or a premeditated killing - in this case I see it as a premeditated killing due to 'duty of care' neglect and incompetence by the Oz government - whichever ideology.
    The prime partner in this crime is any country that permits the operation of people smuggling [in that it is an illegality/offence in the eyes of the UN, not necessarily a particular countries laws] or the departure of vessels carrying such a cargo = 1) Indonesia 2) Malaya 3) Sri Lanka 4) Thailand etc etc etc
    AmandaR
    14th Mar 2013
    11:16pm
    That is one way of explaining away the use of an offensive term. As you say, the despots who rule the countries from where the asylum seekers flee, the officials who turn a blind eye or accept brides from people smugglers, and people smugglers are the real criminals here. They have the motive, exploitation of the vulnerable. To lay this label on the Australian government, as you have several times above, is offensive. So yes, now that you have put it out there, I am offended by your use of this term. Offensive response in 1 2 3...
    scicdb3
    5th Mar 2013
    2:52pm
    Hasn't someone done a cost-benefit analysis of providing the resources to assess refugee claims (lawyers, research teams etc) vs the cost of detaining them?
    Until this is done, we cannot refer to them as illegal immigrants.
    It's not a drain - the money doesn't evaporate, but circulates through that part of our economy.
    arbee75
    5th Mar 2013
    2:54pm
    The current "dog whistle" campaigning by the LNP re the asylum seekers is really the big bad "COMMO " scare in another form, the Tories used these scare tactics in the the three post WW 2 decades to great effect.

    It is their stock in trade, find a bogeyman eg reds ( under beds ) reffos etc and blame them for all sorts of nasty things, and then accuse the ALP of being too soft on them, or even in cahoots with these demonised groups.

    Prior to the Commo, yellow peril and the reffos scare mongering it was statements like " all Greeks &
    Italians along with " Balts " are potential thieves, and who of course, carried knives at all times; this kind of excrement was taken as Gospel by far too many decent Australians in those times.

    It is gravely concerning to me as a person who grew up in those times that the tories are reverting to type and ( like dogs )
    are returning to their vomit !!!

    arbee75
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    3:41pm
    so I think that you are saying that the 'enforced drownings' caused by the failed ALP boat asylum seeker policies is AOK because the NLP [tories, dogs] are just scare mongering [mongrels innuendo ?] with 'reds under beds' [thats a liberals only notion ?] tactics and that that is taken as Gospel [religious insertion intent] by the Oz peoples. Whew - a few mixed up metaphorical crazy notions going on there in your head arbee75 !!
    Jurassicgeek
    5th Mar 2013
    2:58pm
    Whatever you think about these people who try to enter our country, they are illegal immigrants and should be treated as such. We should not be escorting/transporting them to an Australian processing Centre. We should not be supporting them during this period rather send them back where they came from and let them go through the proper channels like the rest of us did.

    Dont expect either Gillard or Abbott to fix this. They dont have the balls to simply say "NO you cant come in"

    Reading through the previous comments I noted that some one said that the number of asylum seekers is relatively small in the scheme of things. Why then does it cost billions to support/help/provide for this "relatively small" number of people.

    I agree with a previous comment. Put them on the first available flight back to where they came from.
    geomac
    5th Mar 2013
    3:30pm
    I disagree with a lot of what you say but you do make one valid comment .
    We either adhere to our commitments or we publicly tear them up . To hide behind the illusion that we uphold all , not just some , principles on asylum seekers is a sham . Either be honest and withdraw ( tear up ) or honour our commitments , circumstances permitting . After all some obstacles are unavoidable .
    soph
    5th Mar 2013
    3:39pm
    "Australia is a signatory to the UN Refugee Convention which recognises that refugees have the right to enter a country for the purposes of seeking asylum, regardless of how they arrive or whether they hold valid travel or identity documents. In line with our obligations to the Convention, Australian law also permits unauthorised entry into Australia for the purpose of seeking asylum." Turning the boats back is in direct contravention of our obligations to the Convention and shipping people out to Nauru and Manus Island may also put us in breach of the Convention.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    3:47pm
    I think that the 'turning back the boats' policy was blown out of all proportion as it was never to be used as a 1st choice option by any Oz Navy commander of a vessel involved - my son is Navy and he has been there and done that but it was always to be done with the utmost care and concensus with the Indonesians anyway.
    As for the recent UN report on the foreign offshore 'solution' - well, as said before the Oz government should know well beforehand what is correct or what is not - thats what we pay them for - duh.
    Aloysius
    5th Mar 2013
    3:59pm
    The UN Refugee Convention was drawn up for a different time and a different purpose. It is so out-of-date that it should be torn up and redrafted. It is being used by unscrupulous boat smugglers to get people into Western countries without going through immigration processes.
    Twila
    5th Mar 2013
    3:41pm
    Agreed aquatek,

    However, the conditions in Australia were very harsh. One had to really toil to survive here; nothing was handed on a plate. This is when the concept of 'mateship' developed out of necessity.

    I'm not sure, but aren't asylum seekers supposed to claim asylum at the first safe country they reach, not shop around.

    Whilst, I wouldn't go so far as to state that the government is murdering these people, I would say that they can be seen as complict with deaths occurring en route to Australia.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    4:05pm
    indeed - if you didnt die on the voyage out then you may well die in Oz anyway. Thankfully much of the societal factors that kept people alive like a clean uncontaminated water supply, anti-scurvy, sanitation, sulphur for broken skin injuries etc were being progressively employed. Although infant mortality was quite high the societal groups did flourish and defined what it was to be an Australian.
    Jurassicgeek
    5th Mar 2013
    3:42pm
    Geomac ,I am a bit puzzled as to which "illusion" you are referring. In my opinion recent governments are perpetuating the illusion that are are doing whats best for the country,instead we are all disillusioned with what ever illusion they are perpetuating.If only.....
    geomac
    5th Mar 2013
    6:30pm
    The illusion that we are honouring the UN convention on refugees . I didn,t say if our approach was right or wrong . We do do good but we are not the most generous . We do not come remotely close to accepting/ having the most refugees . Creeps like Morrison destroy any meaningful discussion on what we should or could do better . It was slightly disturbing to find that we aussies are 45 times more likely to be charged with a crime that an asylum seeker/refugee that has settled here . If there was a federal department concerned with dogs pounds Morrison would be shadow minister for that , dog whistle at the ready . Talk about the lowest common denominator .
    unicorn
    5th Mar 2013
    3:50pm
    I am sick to death of the likes of comments like the ALP is murdering these poor asylum seekers as I type what I say to you is stop typig because what you say id a lot of nonsense anyway. If these people are true asulum seekers why destroy their passports in the fuirst place do they think if we can't prove where they come from it will all go away ? How ridiculous, like Tony Abbot saying simple stop the boats, how Tony.?
    Just says it like it's easy. And it would be too if allowed to give our Navy the right to shoot on sight. Tony never answers the question i case the do gooders finally wake up. This is the only way to stop these illegals from coming here. In the 40's & 50's we had heaps of people come here fro,m all over the world & mostly they settled down, got a job & mostly bought houses & behaved likw decent people learnu=ing English ^& not expecting us to make their life better but by earning the rights to improve life, they put up with being called Wogs etc. not screaming about their rights. what has changed? Bloody do gooders in my opinion!
    tia-maria
    6th Mar 2013
    6:48pm
    unicorn, spot on mate.

    5th Mar 2013
    3:50pm
    As for the cost of keeping these people when we are in dire straits money wise - all I read is that we owe them when we have so much ourselves often - but have we?

    Cutting single parents before the next Budget smacks of desperate times to me and when I read this list of the cost of boat people then I understood how many billions they are costing the government and wonder why they do nothing to stop the inflow of these illegals and it is illegal to land in Australia without a Visa.

    Read this below and see for yourselves - horrendous costs and we do know that the rentals will be high as they have run out of room at the detention centres and are leasing any block of units or motels and even private rooms to house the overflow into the community.

    http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/03/compare-and-contrast-cuts-to-healthcare-for-us-no-limits-to-money-for-asylum-seekers.html
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    3:58pm
    pls - the correct terminology is 'unlawful' in that they have not commited a criminal offence - they have arrived without a visa and have claimed 'refugee/asylum' status.
    gca
    5th Mar 2013
    8:24pm
    We are also borrowing money to provide aid to other countries at a time when we have a crisis in our hospitals and our education system is going backwards in world rankings. Why don't we stop the aid and let these countries borrow their own money?
    AmandaR
    15th Mar 2013
    1:57am
    They do borrow heavily gca, without the real means to repay the loans. The crisis in our hospitals and education systems is the result of systemic, long term mismanagement. Stopping aid won't fix our problems.
    Twila
    5th Mar 2013
    3:51pm
    The destruction of identity papers is of great concern. All counries have protocols about admitting people. Without visas, passport etc. they are denied entry; but apparently not in 'all' cases. Without papers a person is/was generally considered 'stateless.'

    5th Mar 2013
    3:53pm
    Or if you object to Michael smith as being either a left or right, not sure myself, then you can read it off the official site here.

    https://www.tenders.gov.au/?event=public.advancedsearch.keyword&keyword=immigration+AND+serco
    biddi
    5th Mar 2013
    3:56pm
    Twila : That's an interesting comment ...."aren't asylum seekers supposed to claim asylum at the first safe country they reach, not shop around". I expect they would deem no country
    safe apart from Australia!! Which other countries do they pass through before going to
    Indonesia? I guess we wouldn't know when their papers have been destroyed.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    4:00pm
    This has been thoroughly explained last time 'we' went around this forum vortex - Malaysia [Islamic country] holds many many refugees in pretty torrid conditions - all awaiting their turn in the 'queue'.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    4:22pm
    http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/07/24/map-of-the-worlds-religions/

    the worlds religious map - Oz is 'surrounded' to the north west by Islamic Sunni countries - Malaysia and Indonesia. These countries are where the boats depart from.
    missmarple
    5th Mar 2013
    4:00pm
    After reading a lot of these post's it seems nearly everyone for one reason or another is against these Boat people and I am one of them, the old saying "Charity begins at home" is lost by the Government, I don't particulary like Tony Abbot but if he "promises to turn back the boats" he will get my vote
    missmarple
    5th Mar 2013
    4:15pm
    just had an interesting email arrive,,, last year the cost associated with the asylum Seekers was $3.6billion BUNDERBERG Q,land flood, Federal Assistance $1million
    Anonymous
    5th Mar 2013
    4:40pm
    Partly listed here I suspect.

    https://www.tenders.gov.au/?event=public.advancedsearch.keyword&keyword=immigration+AND+serco
    Twila
    5th Mar 2013
    4:55pm
    Logically, those asylum seekers who wish to enter Australia, should be placed at the end of the queue. This seems both simple and fair.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    5:06pm
    they have already 'jumped' the 'queue' so how would you propose that they be placed back in the queue ?
    1 - send them back immediately to their country of origin although they have no papers so that is unknown
    2 - send them back to where the boat left from - oh no !! that smacks of also turning the boats back !!

    well, common - what is the solution ?
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    4:59pm
    I think that the past events all point to decisive economic perceptions made by the people smugglers and the countries that permit the boats to embark:

    1 - NLP = capitalism therefore decisive 'no boats' policy and if you do manage to come then we will make it tough for you regardless of the supposed circumstances as to why you came by boat to claim a permanent place of abode in Oz.

    VERSUS

    2 - ALP = socialist regime therefore a weak policy that will allow virtually anyone to arrive by boat and claim asylum as a refugee. It is only as the policies failed [Pacific solution] that the left swung way over to the right to implement the offshore processing fiasco that is used currently.
    Abby
    9th Mar 2013
    9:07am
    That sums it up well aquatrek
    soph
    5th Mar 2013
    5:14pm
    What I was trying to say is that we as a nation and as a government have certain legal and humanitarian obligations to anyone who lands on our shores. This is not the first time Australia has been inundated with people seeking asylum. Remember the Vietnamese? If our government put more money into the institutions that are responsible for vetting these people instead reducing their funding to the stage where they have virtually become impotent, the processing of boat people would be much faster and efficient, and they would either be accepted as genuine refugees or sent home. By the way, there is no such thing as illegal immigrants under Australian law, nor a queue of some kind that people are on in order to be accepted here. Just a arbitrary number of refugees Australia accepts annually.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    5:19pm
    3.6 billion INVESTED ALREADY and you suggest that the government throw more monies at the issue - I dont think that you have read and digested the above posts which are now many and pretty much right on topic.
    AmandaR
    15th Mar 2013
    12:19am
    soph, you make a valid point. If the issue is inefficiencies in processing then surely there are more resources required. 4-5 years for processing is ridiculous. The costs would be offset by the reduction of maintenance costs in the refugee centres. I am sure resources could be found. For example, there are plenty of government employees losing their jobs at state level and some of these could be retrained and redeployed.
    Anonymous
    15th Mar 2013
    2:51pm
    Wrong Soph - you are quoting the left wing view of the International Lawyers in the Hague and the UN who would have us lose all of our sovereign rights.

    Australian Law says to enter our country you require a valid visa.

    And what dont you all, who think it is legal to lob up and demand asylum, understand about the fact they have to get on a smugglers boat - smuggling in unlawful in any country. Means getting in goods or people without being caught and goaled.
    Twila
    5th Mar 2013
    5:16pm
    I believe that the Malay government has tried to stop these boats. Either they are very incompetent or there is corruption at high places ... indeed, endemic.

    There are limited sites on the Malay coast to where asylum seekers could be transported, a boat fitted with supplies and importantly enough fuel to reach Australia.

    Why isn't there some sort of accountancy?
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    5:22pm
    accountability - both Indonesia and Malaya seem to put 'lip service' to the problem and I do recall that their laws do not make people smuggling a criminal offence [yet].
    Col
    5th Mar 2013
    5:39pm
    When I read these comments, one thing stands out.Many of them are couched in language full of grammatical and spelling errors. In other words, semi literate folk are publishing their view-points.
    My point is, should we pay serious attention to these ideas?
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    5:42pm
    tut tut tut - you missed a space [out.Many] so that deems you one of the 'semi illiterates' hahahaha
    Anonymous
    15th Mar 2013
    3:01pm
    Rather snobbish don't you think old chap?

    Tut tut too Many of whom ha ha ha
    tia-maria
    5th Mar 2013
    5:45pm
    Taskid,
    were are you coming from?????????? forgoodness sakes the Asylum seekers have broken the laws of Australia........given the golden handshake, WRONG WRONG.............Our Gandparents be turning over in their graves to what is happening to our country, they went to War to give us a peaceful place to live and see Australia grow....with so many Asylum Seekers......ALSO FINDING THEM IN ALL TYPES OF accommation AROUND AUSTRALIA.........our PM GILLARD never told us the truth just went behind our backs......to give ellegle boat people best of everything...........WHILE THE RETIRED PENSIONERS STRUGGLEING IN RETURN..............IN future our PM of Australia should be an Australia.
    geomac
    5th Mar 2013
    6:52pm
    Do you mean Australian by birth tia ? You need to clarify because both the PM and the LOTO were born elsewhere . Refugees get newstart which is about 100 bucks less than what pensioners get . Is that your definition of the best of everything ? I,m a pensioner and I,m puzzled at your assertion that I,m struggling . I,m certainly not living the high life , far from it but then I,m not on my uppers either . I have ailments including Emphysema but fortunately meds are covered under PBS so no hardship at the chemist . I save a bit each fortnight , pay bills as they come in so I ask what more do you think I should have ? Paid holidays to Bali perhaps ? Yes there are pensioners doing it tough just as there are workers doing it tough , families etc but in general most of us are doing ok . All my neighbours are over 55 and some into their eighties and none are going short for food or getting power cut off . Some even take off interstate for a trip while some enjoy a good booze up every so often . Fortunately all are civil and quick with a smile , maybe I,m lucky to have good neighbours or maybe your exaggerating tia .
    tia-maria
    6th Mar 2013
    6:46pm
    geomac, First my friend I aware that Gillard and Lotto are not Aussie OK........BUT thats not what I am saying ............IN referance to my comment I dont think its fair on any Dinki Die aussies and for any legal migrants accept ..................The Asylum Seekers coming in our back door .............and Given The Golden Handshake..........they have never paid taxes here in Australia...ITS JUST A FREE GRAVY TRAIN RIDE.......ok if you agree they should receive help given the money medical dentist clothing???????? well my friend open your eye because what you should be getting their getting it instead such as DENTAL........
    We are struggling also with Chronic Health Issues Ok and I stand up for the genuine retired pensioners...... whats a holiday/ just maybe you need to read my comment better cheers.
    Abby
    9th Mar 2013
    9:10am
    Well said tia-maria
    Twila
    5th Mar 2013
    6:04pm
    'accountability' Thank you aquatek, you are correct.
    piklo
    5th Mar 2013
    6:32pm
    gooday people
    twice in one day after reading the above about the 3.6 billion $ to house and look after these illegals and they are illegals anyone that tries to entre any country after getting rid of any id is illegal does not matter how you look at it charity begins in the home and anyone that is in their 60s and over would remeber how hard things were when we were young we had to work hard for everything ,bunderburg gets a million $ I for all there suffering and I also believe that the illegals that are sent back get $3000 for there trouble is this true ????? we could go on and on come on australia its time we started to look after our own
    Col
    5th Mar 2013
    7:11pm
    Aquatrek is clearly not only quasi-literate, but also appalingly punctilious.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    7:22pm
    You unfortunately have made an 'appallingly' pathetic entrance - an exit stage left?
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    7:35pm
    oh dear - 'tedious' = So lacking in interest as to cause mental weariness [Princeton University]. Will you dare type anything ever ever again? On the other hand maybe Twila is just so brain weary from this topic having been torn into teeny weeny bits that it is nearing its own attention span demise?
    Twila
    5th Mar 2013
    7:25pm
    Col,

    Is this all you can add to the debate? You are tedious.
    Twila
    5th Mar 2013
    7:30pm
    aquatek,

    It would seem that any albeit semblance of a diplomatic and fair solution beween Australia and Malaysia is not possible. Apparently Malaysia has no need of our aid.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    7:41pm
    Well said - another asylum seeker by boat to Oz jigsaw puzzle piece played out. No wonder that the ALP have lost/forfeited the game. It has just too many puzzle pieces for them to deal with. Such is the plight of those who languish in the wilderness of politics too long and therefore cannot fathom a game plan exit that is appealing to the politburo or the peoples they desire to suppress. Goodbye ALP.
    toot2000
    5th Mar 2013
    9:39pm
    I wonder if all these people coming by boat have any qualifications to offer us or are they all unskilled?
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    9:56pm
    I think IMHO most are classed as unskilled in that any qualifications are not recognized here - touched upon by littleredrose50 - they all know this and do not intend to work at all. Their traditional family systems are much more intertwined than ours and the generous Oz social payments help proliferate that lifestyle. Serious Muslims denigrate women and prohibit them from working. I had the privilege and experience of supporting a Saudi Arabia Shia university student in my own home for one year - he was gobsmacked at most of our male/female social relationships - even what we readily take for granted like playing mixed doubles tennis.
    student
    16th Mar 2013
    8:51am
    so do 'serious' Christians denigrate women. They also bash and kill women so Christians are NO better than Muslims. Your compassion surprises me. Your Saudi student was very lucky to spend time with you. I don't feel envy very often but I admire and envy your decision to help the less fortunate. I presume your student was a HELP (the new HECS) student?
    Taskid
    16th Mar 2013
    9:47am
    student What arrant nonsense. No true Christian bashes and kills anyone. Jesus sounded the warning to His followers, "those who live by the sword will die by the sword." True Christians know their weapons of warfare are very different from what the world uses, and they are not used against people, but against the evil that drives violence. Because some people who call themselves "Christians"so evil things using His name do not assume they are true followers of Jesus. He never told any one to bash or kill anyone else. "Love your enemy, bless and do not curse" was His command.
    Paddles
    5th Mar 2013
    10:16pm
    When Aquatrek refers to these last two governments, I hope he is referring to Rudd and Gillard. It is a matter of record that, under the Howard govt, boat people ceased to be a problem.
    That said, we must all agree that this is an enormously difficult and multi-faceted problem for whatever govt is in power. How does one sort the wheat from the chaff when we have people destroying documentation and telling all kind of porkies so that they can enjoy the life that we are fortunate enough to live.
    Fact is, the current govt has literally thrown its handws up into the air and released a multitude of people of unknown provenance and worthiness ,into the community and now has no idea where they are. This is incompetence of the highest order but, unfortunately, is consistent with what we have come to expect of the Gillard cabal.
    geomac
    6th Mar 2013
    3:00pm
    I think Howards term in office was 96 to 2007 . In 1999 there were 3700 boat arrivals , 2000 there were 2900 arrivals and in 2001 there were 5500 arrivals , Tampa year . 2006 and 2007 there were 60 and 148 but in between low numbers except for one year of 50 odd . Your last para is rubbish and worthiness ? An aussie is 45 times more prone to get charged than a refugee settled here . Not my figures or assessment but govt data . We are all worthy Paddles .
    aquatrek
    6th Mar 2013
    3:16pm
    I think what Paddles meant was that some of those released asylum refugees are not fully processed as to their validity status and that the ALP have lost control of the situation. Yes, the NLP did eventually 'stop the boats' at the time. Now the figures are into the tens of thousands.

    More importantly are the deaths.
    http://www.abolishforeignness.org/blog/fortress-australia-asylum-seeker-and-migrant-death-and-detention-statistics
    wally
    5th Mar 2013
    10:42pm
    I can think of one one illegal immigrant who would have talents useful to Australia, but he seems to have disappeared. This person is known as Captain Emad. Obviously he would do a good job encouraging an increase in tourism. The only problem, as I see it, would be to get these tourists to go home.
    I wonder what would happen if the illegal immigrants were given 457 visas? What would the unions have to say about that? As the illegals are not allowed to work once they have landed on mainland Australian soil, perhaps this would not be offensive to the unions, despite Julia's foreigner bashing exercise, hot on the heels of Sport/druggies, paedophiles and misogynists she has chosen to denounce in recent months. Maybe she will focus her wrath against the unappreciative "Westies" of Rooty Hill and surrounding suburbs next.
    aquatrek
    5th Mar 2013
    11:03pm
    cynical 'bastard' hehe
    lowflyer
    5th Mar 2013
    11:31pm
    I see from most of the comments we are asking why is the Government throwing billions of our tax payers money at these mostly illegal immigrants.??? Sure they have the right.. Yes the right to work and pay taxes. Then they can ask for medicare etc NOT before.
    We have enought people here in australia who need a hand so why not give them assistance. Not the illegal people. If they can aford to pay tens of thousands of dollars to get a passage on a boat they are not hard done by, and why do they tear up all their documents before arrival??? And why are they mostly male.... is the way round the system that when and if they are accepted then they can bring their wives and children plus their extended families over for us to house and give them twice what the pensioners get and all for nothing.
    lowflyer
    5th Mar 2013
    11:38pm
    Another point is just look at the UK and the shambles it is in with all the illegals and Eastern block people arriving. They can demand accommodation while the british people are put further down the list. There are areas where the Shari law operates contraty to British Law and only now these people who operate the laws are being prosecuted. Do we want that here???
    aquatrek
    6th Mar 2013
    12:00am
    Its way too late to start worrying about whether the impact upon the Oz society is coming or not - it is here right now.
    Sylvia
    6th Mar 2013
    12:36am
    Just reading all these posts, and wondering when are we going to actually do some thing about it? so much talk, and the pollies are not listening!
    We should make it law if asylum seekers have no papers then they be delivered to the previous country they passed on their way here, and if they don't belong there back to the previous country after that, want to bet they would stop arriving by the boatload? We need some politicians who are looking after Australia and Australians.
    I was returning from an overseas holiday when I was stopped by an arab girl who was returning to Australia with her little son she asked for money to buy the boy food, she had been to back to Afghanistan to marry , she hoped her husband would be allowed to come later,
    What worried me was the fact that she had been a refugee , yet she went back to get married? surely if you ran away from that country to seek refuge you would not be able to return? I have heard many more go back for holiday's. Some how I think they are all having a laugh at us?
    from the nanny state
    6th Mar 2013
    10:04am
    Australia is a very divided nation over these so called "asylum seekers" when in fact they are cashed up queue jumpers who toss their passports into the sea and lie, burn down facilities and get untold money and possessions to live here....HOW DARE THEY.... Give all that to our pensioners and hospitals, schools, homeless etc here 1ST ... It's a damn disgrace they way Australian citizens are treated over these WHO ARE THEY PEOPLE.
    Once they have crossed the borders of their war torn country .. they can claim asylum there... once they cross to Australia from there they are nothing short of queue jumpers who deny the rights of honest people seeking to live in this country.
    from the nanny state
    6th Mar 2013
    10:12am
    We have Australian law here..... Who on earth would ever even consider this cruel Sharia Law here..... GO HOME ..... don't bring your unrest here... we have enough to worry about with housing for our own.... I hate to see Australians sleeping on the street when we are giving so much to accommodate the lies of queue jumpers who go back to their country to visit family and friends and holidays.... so much for the terror they say they are fleeing from...if that was the case ... You would never return.
    aquatrek
    6th Mar 2013
    3:23pm
    Being a returning uni student I was on campus today and for the very first time, apart from on the open street, I was 'confronted' by an Islamic person wearing the full top of the head to the toe garb. It took place in the very crowded foyer of a very large uni lecture theatre. That was quite a shock - I give 'her?' the dues as to the courage to do that but all of those security concerns rushed through my brain. Who is 'she?'; why?; is 'she?' intent on harm?; and I was quite scared. I sincerely hope that that practice is eventually banned - just as motorcycle helmets must be taken off in banks or the face is disclosed if questrioned by police.
    AmandaR
    14th Mar 2013
    8:33pm
    While I am sorry that you were quite scared aquatrek, this was just a woman going about her day in much the same way as you. Sadly, your response is a reflection of all the prejudice and racial vilification we see and hear everyday on our TV's, on the radio and in the tabloids. This lady may provide you with an opportunity that may not be available to others, the opportunity to get to know her. What are her fears? What are her hopes and dreams? I envy you the opportunity to step out of your comfort zone in the liberal environment of a university. Learning has so many facets :)
    Becker
    14th Mar 2013
    8:36pm
    Nice one AR.
    toot2000
    6th Mar 2013
    4:19pm
    My grand-daughter also has one in her uni class, she said she looks like a letterbox.
    aquatrek
    6th Mar 2013
    4:27pm
    I sent an email to the uni WHS policy manager. It is certainly getting 'out of hand'. Imagine the Jewish community prohibiting anything that occurred on a Friday. Although our forebears did ban everything on a Sunday. Thank 'heavens' [hehe] that those days are well past us.
    Becker
    15th Mar 2013
    9:16am
    'Has 'one' in her class'?

    That probably IS a 'letterbox'.
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    9:26am
    should try posting some snail mail in the slot hehe
    unicorn
    6th Mar 2013
    4:42pm
    That is another thing that always amazes me how can they get a licence to drive with their heads & FACES covered where as people I know (Australians ) who have nothing to hide are made to uncover their faces when entering a bank etc, I know my son was a Postie at one stage and often had letters to deliver into Banks etc, but he was always forced to lift his helmet from his face before entering the building. Yet these Islamics say the Police are being rude by demanding they take their head wear off while driving etc. It is law - Australian law - ladies no one is being rude to you for heaven's sake! Get real!!!!
    toot2000
    6th Mar 2013
    5:24pm
    Although I'm no psychologist, I think some of those weird Aussie-born Muslim women wear the burqa as a badge of honour, deliberately looking for a reaction. I take umbridge every time I see one because by wearing it, she is telling me personally the my culture is not acceptable to her, she refuses to fit in, yet she wants to live here.
    Anonymous
    15th Mar 2013
    3:53pm
    Good for you Toot2000 because 100% right you see. Aussies who think it is okay are brainwashed by the left. No other religions do this except to go to worship in their church or temple.

    Islam in fact says it is superior to all other cults and religions.
    which makes it racist as it fits the definition.

    By wearing it they are flaunting their ideology in our faces and telling us what is their intention which is ultimately to take over the country.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    4:04pm
    What a joy it is to be born-again Christian, no amount of brain-washing can bring that to pass, only God alone through Jesus.

    I feel genuinely sad these Islamic folk are so devoutly devoted to a man-made system which leads nowhere. They have been fed this teaching from childhood and it is hard for them then to realise how deceived they have been.
    Twila
    6th Mar 2013
    6:59pm
    aquatek,

    The burqua (hijab) (pre-dates Islam and is not an Islamic requirement. There are many Islamic regions where the burqua is not worn. Indeed,Turkey, Tunisia and Syria banned the burqua in public places, such as schools, universities and government buildings. Morocco discriminates against the burqua, being seen as in conflict with secular government.

    A woman who visited her husband's family in the Middle East was compelled to wear her sister-in-law's burqua. She described it as noisome, the face veil being stiff with dried mucous and spittle, also difficult to see clearly through. The garment was unwieldy, clumsy and hot.

    Women wearing the burqua are isolated. Whilst people recommend making friends with them, any idea of having a coffee with them in a public place is impossible.
    aquatrek
    6th Mar 2013
    9:10pm
    so why do we [the Oz government] 'allow' such a garment be worn in public places wher many people gather ?
    Apparently [I cant be bothered researching this] its been banned in some EU countries ?
    Twila
    6th Mar 2013
    9:57pm
    aquatrek,

    Yes, it has been banned in certain EU countries. Our government convulsively caves into whatever the pc crowd deems un-pc.

    I wonder what happens when the burqua is worn in those Islamic countries where it is banned? More than likely, the status quo is not challenged.
    Twila
    6th Mar 2013
    10:12pm
    When France banned the burqua, there were riots and cars burnt.

    However, I think that our Islamic population, given the vast difference to that of France, would not resort to this. Their Islamic population are much more numerous, entrenched in enclaves where even the police don't venture. They have established a particular culture of 'them and us.'
    aquatrek
    6th Mar 2013
    10:24pm
    and it is slowly happening here as well - what a bleak future we can look forward to - even though all things change in time.
    Abby
    9th Mar 2013
    9:45am
    This is happening here they are building enclaves along the eastern Border

    It is happening more quickly than what you think Aquatrek

    Why else would they need 43 mosques in Sydney ?

    We are supposed to have less than 2 % Muslims going by our census but that is dependent on the them filling out the correct information on the census paper.
    Twila
    6th Mar 2013
    11:16pm
    aquatrek,

    My own viewpoint - and I'm sure many would disagree - is that the majority of Muslims, at least originally, came from French colonies. As all colonial subjects regarded their colonial 'homeland' as their mother country , they regarded France as home. They would have had French passports. With this would have come a lot of expectations. They may feel that they have not been accepted as they should be, along with other feelings of disappointment and resentment. Many, many went to France, as did British colonial subjects, holding British passports, flood England. Other colonial powers also experienced this. The relative 'colonial' governments had no idea how to handle this - afterall, these were French or British subjects. I don't think there was much effort to 'aculturise' these new arrivals to the new cultures to which they arrived.

    As I stated, this is my own view. I lived in Malaysia when it was a colony of Britain, and it was easy to see how many of the Malay peoples viewed England. Of course, they achieved Merkdekah (independence) in 1960 and this changed.
    aquatrek
    6th Mar 2013
    11:37pm
    thanks - another 1st hand experience - many thanks for your insight as to why there has been such a drive to get from Islamic failures to safe western enclaves. That principle applies to Oz even though Oz had no colonial ownership - the ownership is now resolved into any safe sociable haven. In the long run the Islamic religious dogma will ruin this nation as well - unless it is stopped from its cancerous spread. Harsh summation but it has just dawned upon me.
    geomac
    7th Mar 2013
    10:14pm
    PNG aqua , Australia had it till 1975 after taking control , mandate , in WW1 .
    aquatrek
    7th Mar 2013
    10:22pm
    ta for the 'wakeup' call geomac: I arrived in Port Moresby in 9/75 for a 2 yr Govmnt IT contract - but I dont see 'rascals' forcing an implementation of pig feasts to recompence for the spearing of a 'won tok' or relative or village neighbour - in Oz.
    Twila
    6th Mar 2013
    11:49pm
    This is why the government should do what it can to aculturise new arrivals. Those arriving haven't yet viewed Australia as their mother country with all the sense of entitlement due to them, but as you state the caving in on important issues (those considered so by the Australian people) is going to cause problems along the track. There has to be a dominant cullture to which all can identify and respect, even whilst having their own culture/practices.. One can't have a mish-mash of conflicting practices and cultures. There has to be a dominant one to ensure cohesion in society, law and order, and national identity.

    Again this is my opinion. Many may not agree. Certainly the pc police have no concept of this.
    Twila
    7th Mar 2013
    12:00am
    A rider.

    When I lived in Malaysia, the dominant culture was Muslim. We all respected this. Europeans did not dress in a way that would have upset them, albeit the Muslim culture was not as draconian as seen today. No attempt was made to convert them to Christianity; to do so would have meant immediate expulsion from the country. The public year was determined by the Muslim festivals and fasts - Ramadan (fast) meant that
    public offices held shorter hours to accommodate this.

    Ironically, because Malays did not attend church schools, they did not learn English; consequently all the significant positions, during the colonial period, went to Chinese predominantly and then Indians. Chinese particularly knew how government departments should be run and this would have caused problems when independence was achieved. However, all the colonial officers, who had been under Whitehall, were contracted by the new Malay government and with not a hiccup, business continued as exactly as before.
    AmandaR
    15th Mar 2013
    2:10am
    My, how things have changed. On a recent trip to Malaysia we were pleasantly surprised by the number of locals in KL and Penang who spoke beautiful English. I do envy the multilingual.

    We also enjoyed watching the full burka wearing tourists from the Arab states swimming, para-sailing and generally mucking about. Penang is a favorite honeymoon destination for them and apart from the clothing, they were no different to other holiday makers.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    8:10am
    Yes as tourists they enjoy freedom, or freedoms may be removed, such as when I was at a Muslim site I was not, as a Christian, allowed to display any cross, bible or anything in my appearance to indicate my belief. They do not permit such freedom for non-Islamics in their own countries for tourists or for non-Islamics in their midst.
    The penalty is often very harsh.
    Aloysius
    7th Mar 2013
    8:21am
    Why would a woman advertise that she is a Muslim at University when extremist Muslims wish to eradicate education for women - even killing those who advocate for womens'education?
    student
    13th Mar 2013
    3:32pm
    Aloysius, this is Australia and we are FREE to do what ever we like (as long as it doesn't break a law). I know we fight wars to give people freedom, but it's not that simple. Escaping an oppressed, war torn country and arriving in a democratically free country only to be told you are NOT free to wear what you like ... what confusion!! As for Women's Lib .... it is not all good for all women :) :) and this is a perfect example. They are being told what they can't wear because now they are 'free'. Odd isn't it ? :) To answer your question

    "... Why would a woman advertise that she is a Muslim at University ..."
    she wears what she likes because NOW she can :) Maybe she is thumbing her nose at the males who want to oppress her, but she is free to do and wear what she likes in Australia. :)
    AmandaR
    14th Mar 2013
    11:46pm
    Good answer student. Of course she isn't 'advertising' the fact she is Muslim, she is merely expressing the freedom to be who she is, whenever and wherever she wishes. If a Muslim woman, or anyone for that matter, wants to send a strong message to oppressors, obtaining a good education is a fantastic response. Perhaps she was upgrading qualifications that aren't recognized here so that she can get meaningful employment :)
    unicorn
    7th Mar 2013
    9:27am
    Why do any of them adveertise the fact by wearing their burkas ? why do any women from any other country need to let us know by way of dresss that they are different? Our clothes mostly suit our climate & even though I can't always find exactly what I want I am able to have a wardrobe so full of clothes that most would be envious of.
    wally
    7th Mar 2013
    10:33am
    Is it true that the wearing of the hejab/burqa is really a sign of integration into Australian society? Perhaps these people are showing their reverence in emulating a famous Australian named Ned Kelly! I just hope they do not share his criminal intentions.
    student
    13th Mar 2013
    3:53pm
    wally, Australians have accepted and adopted dress from other countries. Look at the bikini!! And the 'safari suit' from years ago. I know the hejab/burqa are not on the same field, and I can't see them becoming a fashion trend, but we have adopted dress from other countries. As for NK ... I think he ... nahhhh :) :)
    Twila
    7th Mar 2013
    2:19pm
    Aloysius,

    You have made an excellent point. It is the extremists who would want to bring back to burqua for all women, and they are also the ones who deny women an education. Excellent logic/
    geomac
    7th Mar 2013
    10:20pm
    Why do clerics wear the dog collar . Why do bagpipe bands wear kilts . Why do bishops carry a shepherds hook when they don,t handle sheep ? Why do people worry about what other people wear ?
    All Irish are drunks because I know one that is . All aussies are whingers because I know a few who do . All kiwis are etc etc . All people who don,t look or act like me are un Australian . Trouble is what is Australian ? Hmmmmm
    aquatrek
    7th Mar 2013
    10:29pm
    Definitely not the Islamics in the year 2013. Yet the original red centre's camel drivers, all being imported Muslims because of their particular beast husbandry skills, didnt have the impact that the now feral camels have nor the unlawful asylum refugee seekers do today.
    AmandaR
    15th Mar 2013
    2:31am
    True geomac, what is Australian these days? We were invited to a fancy dress party recently. The dress code - come in national costume. We were stumped before we even started.
    Becker
    15th Mar 2013
    9:18am
    That gave me a much needed chuckle!
    aquatrek
    7th Mar 2013
    10:43pm
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Larry-Pickering/236991276355038

    OK - I know that LP is detested by many but he does not pull any punches and as a journalist of many many years he does have his contacts/informers as all journos do - if this is true then the ALP have taken Oz into the bottomless gutter of despicable despair re human rights.
    I sincerely hope that this is not true.
    geomac
    8th Mar 2013
    12:03am
    Pickering ? All I know about him is he used to be a cartoonist of sorts . I found an article , here is an excerpt :
    By way of history, having lost a fortune or two trying to grow tomatoes and building a horse stud (among other things, stables built of arsenic-treated pine aren't a good idea), Pickering turned to scamming in the 1990s and found his true talent.
    Cold-call racket
    Hiding behind other people, Pickering ran a high-pressure cold-call racket that promised mug punters computer software that would pick winners on the race track for them. Yes, you would have to be a fool to fall for such a thing, but as shysters like Pickering know, there are actually a lot more than one born every minute.


    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/larry-pickering--the-conman-stalking-gillard-20120820-24hxi.html#ixzz2MrHA5NlJ
    So a shyster , bankrupt and teller of porkies with talent for schoolboy humour . Journalist ? Thats a long bow aqua . Michael Pascoe is a business/finance journalist . Pickering is a declared bankrupt living the life of Rilely , enough said I think .
    aquatrek
    8th Mar 2013
    12:35am
    aha aha typical knee jerk response by another in supposed denial of anything that may dissolve rust. Attack the individual person as blatantly and brutally as one can and that may create the moving slideshow of mirrors/shadows of some underlying truth. All that you know about LP [which is stuff all from your comments above] is what you allow yourself to know. Look deeply in your own mirror geomac.
    student
    13th Mar 2013
    3:15pm
    oh aqua, aqua, aqua .... How can you defend LP?? He is a rogue and scoundrel ... fit only for his own humour (or lack of). Geomac is right. By showing the ethics of the writer is showing the quality of the cartoonist. I have never regarded LP as a 'journalist, only a political cartoonist. Big difference.

    Are you going to tell me to look into my mirror too?? Hmmmmmmmmm :) :) :)Verrrrrrry nice :) Wanta have a look ?? :)
    AmandaR
    15th Mar 2013
    2:44am
    You're right aquatrek, he is detested by many and for good reason. His site is a disgusting collection of smutty cartoons and articles that are embellished (his own admission, not mine) to attract readers. He used to be a witty cartoonist. Such a shame he now sinks to such low levels. To call him a journalist is an insult to the intelligence of authentic journalists and readers.
    Twila
    8th Mar 2013
    12:27am
    geomac

    You are absolutely right.

    Dog collars, kilts and the shepherd's hook define people, along with subtext.

    The burqua (hijab) defines women in a particular Islamic group. Whether these women are forced, or coerced into wearing it, it sends a message loud and clear, and the message is ugly. The associated belief and attitude about females has no place in our society.

    No one complains about the Indian sari which also envelopes a woman. Can you understand the difference? It is not even subtle.
    aquatrek
    8th Mar 2013
    12:37am
    but scratch a hypocrite and what do you get ?
    aquatrek
    8th Mar 2013
    12:46am
    anyway it seems at least 3 of us are awake after midnight - lets see now - insomnia, ALP distress, NLP distress, sexual absence, Greens utter distress, overnight climate change distress, bedwetting, drug overdose, eczema, lumpy mattress, cats/dogs commanding their own space, fear of the daylight, utter fear of the dark and all lights are full on, many other fears as a hobby, no fear at all so why awake ?, fear of not waking up [ever], fear of waking up somewhere else with someone you dont know, fear of waking up somewhere else with someone you do know, just plain ordinary fear of being fearful etc etc etc
    aquatrek
    8th Mar 2013
    12:48am
    lights out and over and out - sleep tight and may the bedbugs not consume too much - X
    geomac
    8th Mar 2013
    12:56am
    Fair comment Twila . Unfortunately the father abused on a bus recently while taking his young daughter to kindy had no burqa just his colour to set off some abuse from a woman . The father was of Indian descent and a journo on ABC tv . I,d hate to think what the subtext of a dog collar would be today .
    geomac
    8th Mar 2013
    1:00am
    No fear but an impressive list of possibilities aqua . I have a habit of late nights and rate late night radio on the ABC highly , very entertaining . Not much besides breakfast in the morning and tv is absolute crap till 12 midday news .
    Twila
    8th Mar 2013
    1:37am
    geomac,

    The Islamic reason for the need to wear a burqua.

    Salafi preacher Sheikh Abu Ishaq al-Huwainia likened the face of a woman to her vagina and the necessity for women to wear the niqab (veil)

    ex-Muslim Nonie Darwish’s book on Sharia, ‘Cruel and Usual Punishment’. chapter three, subheading ‘My Body, My Shame, ’ elaborates on this ...

    She cites hadiths to explain: “When she goes outside (the house) the devil welcomes her". So going outside the house for the woman is a form of exposure of her awrah [i.e. it is an act of what we'd call 'indecent exposure' - going outside, or one must assume, showing her face in societies that demand full face-covering, is equivalent to spreading her legs... pp. 77-78.

    Nonie also refers on p.80 to Sheikh al-Hilaly (our beloved Islamic cleric) and his defence of Muslim men who sexually assaulted several Australian girls…" also calling these girls “uncovered meat”, [a common phrase while growing up in Muslim Egypt often heard from Egyptian clerics”. Nonie identifies al-Hilaly as the average Islamic cleric.

    I abhor racism in any form.

    I also abhor a religion that regards half its population in such a manner. This is more oppressive than racism, as it is institutionalised and inculcated into girls as soon as they are born.
    aquatrek
    8th Mar 2013
    7:33am
    inculcated = infused, instilled - ta for the new add to the vocab
    geomac
    8th Mar 2013
    11:29am
    Twila
    You can quote any cleric from any religion or sect and you will come up with ratbags . Danny from catch the disease er fire ministries , sheik ali looking to interpret a verse to suit , reverend charles doing the same with the bible . All pious arseholes who are probably diddling the collection tin/plate donations . I doubt that there are any real christians any more , maybe there never was any . All those crusades and internal wars over their one god who is the same but different label .
    Load of crap , no matter what name you give your team . Let all , all religions pay tax like everyone else .
    Twila
    8th Mar 2013
    2:08pm
    geomac,

    Yes, of course. But this is the argument against the burqua.The burqua reflects the particular religious belief of the wearer. It is particularly nasty. How do Muslim men of this group think of our women.

    Not all Muslims wear the burqua.

    A friend was married to a Kashmiri Muslim, very well educated. Only the peasantry wore burquas. On he having to go the the states to further his degree, he told her that she had to go and live in the local convent. She wasn't even safe there. She returned to Australia.

    I met a nurse from Saudi Arabia (a refugee). Her husband, a doctor, and she were westernised - western educated and speaking fluent English.. She wore jeans and a T-shirt. Her husband had divorced her, citing that there was something wrong with their ten-year old son. She explained that she had to flee the country. Being a divorced woman, both she and her son had a limited life expectancy. This in the educated hierachy!

    I knew her little boy, a lovely child, with no discernable problems.
    geomac
    8th Mar 2013
    3:40pm
    My sister and her husband were considering a job in Saudi A and I had reservations about it but said nothing . I think my sister prevailed in considering their two sons and herself against the money side . She had a job as manager at one of the big two supermarkets , forget which . No chance of similar employment in Saudi I would think .
    I have no argument that severe clothing etc is rubbish but if Jeanie Little wanted to wear a rubbish bag not my concern . I have no time for any religious mob who impose strict limitations on their brethren and that includes all sects whatever their creed . I am biased against that Exclusive Brethren mob because they split families and ban/discourage members from voting . Never met any but that mob sound and act atrociously . A traditional kilt for a Scot involves a dirk ? in the sock . Let common sense prevail about dress re driving or licence ID . aussie law overrides any religious mob cept maybe ped priests going by whats happening at the moment .
    Bes
    8th Mar 2013
    2:39pm
    It has become increasingly obvious that democratic countries that are welfare states become the landing places for people from countries without a welfare system.
    They now use democracy and it's beliefs against itself, to their own ends without fear of reprisal.
    A country that is a welfare state, is dependant on the majority of it's people being born, educated, employed, pay taxes and superannuation until retirement and be able to afford to keep them in old age, for it to function successfully.
    This to create an economy and a successful standard of living.
    The more people who are either invited or instill themselves into the system is done so at a cost.
    There is always a price to pay, today or tomorrow by following generations.
    The future may be forecast, but the future is always susceptible to change at any time due to the worlds economy of which we are a part.
    The cost of our welfare state must still be paid for regardless.
    To control our borders and intake of peoples must be done responsibly and by choice, for our welfare state to remain successful for the future of Australia.
    Some politicians take this for granted and think they can save the world by bringing people here to Australia.
    Humanitarian yes, economically possibly risky.
    Moving one countries economical problem to another country comes with a price!
    The more people infused into the welfare system, halfway through their lives become retirees and a cost to be borne much quicker and with less input than someone who is born here.
    The welfare state still has to be paid for!
    The question of course is by Whom?
    rusty2
    8th Mar 2013
    4:04pm
    Asylum seekers have more rights than the average Australian has .
    So in all cases if you dont arrive in Australia by legal means they should be sent back imediately .
    Rather than being left in detension for a considerable time at Australias expense,
    with no real garantee of being settled any way.
    geomac
    8th Mar 2013
    4:36pm
    Thats a curious notion rusty . I don,t know that an asylum seeker can vote or stand for election in any tier of government . Are they allowed to get a job or apply for Uni , not sure what applies there . Be a bit hard to apply for a job from Nauru but I,m thinking of people in the community . No job no chance of getting a loan from a bank .
    Could you clarify what these extra rights asylum seekers have Rusty ?
    I can clarify one point for you regarding legal arrival . It is legal for an asylum seeker to come to Australia and seek refuge . The mode of transport makes no legal difference . People assessed as not being genuine asylum seekers are I presume the people you are referring to as illegal . Then again you might be unaware of the legalities or law like Abbott and Morrison who agree when asked about legal status . Somehow they forget the legal status when doing a doorstop and revert to terms like illegal . Memory of goldfish syndrome ?
    AmandaR
    15th Mar 2013
    1:33am
    It constantly amazes me that there are people who assume asylum seekers have more rights than Australian citizens. You are correct geomac. They don't have access to the things we take for granted like our right to vote or seek gainful employment. Heck, they don't even have freedom of movement, given most are under lock and key. The only thing they have rights to are the basic human rights of a refugee, and we should be thankful that this is not our plight.
    niemakawa
    8th Mar 2013
    4:53pm
    It's a big scam fostered by our Federal Government and the UN. These illegal immigrants are just queue jumpers and are paying their way to a better economic life here. All the blame is put on the people smugglers but the boat people are just as guilty in the process and should be treated in the same manner. Placing them in the community is the wrong thing to do. Many abscond, rather than wait for their visa status to be confirmed or ratified. Australia should be providing refuge to those that have been languashing in detention centres for years who are still awaiting re-settlement in a third Country. No sympathy from me for those that come by boat illegally. But having said that they seem to have the backing of the Federal Government, although the majority of Australians do not want these illegals here.
    geomac
    8th Mar 2013
    5:17pm
    The same should apply to plane arrivals Macjam ? you don,t mention them yet the same applies to them with everything you suggest for boat arrivals . What about backpackers ? We cannot let them get away with things that you reckon plane and boat arrivals are getting away with can we ? Then again you don,t mention asylum seekers coming by plane yet they outnumber boat arrivals by a large margin . Curious that , care to elaborate ?
    Aloysius
    8th Mar 2013
    7:25pm
    The airlines will not let them board without papers and visas. So they come by boat, having paid large sums and having sent their belongings ahead. Real refugees go to the closest safe country rather than the one with the best welfare on the other side of the world and with a totally different culture.
    Twila
    8th Mar 2013
    5:33pm
    The ones coming by plane, I should think have been cleared.

    I doubt if the average Australian would object to real asylum seekers, having been cleared, coming orderly into the country. This, is course, would require the Malay government's co-operation. I don't understand why our government doesn't 'carpet' the Malay Ambassador. They have received aid from us in the past. Surely this counts for something. I imagine Australia's status is a 'joke' to them. This is hardly an edifying position for us to be in.
    geomac
    8th Mar 2013
    6:11pm
    The ones coming by plane, I should think have been cleared.
    Twila they don,t claim asylum until they have landed and as with other arrivals by other means cannot be cleared until checked . Then you have arrivals by plane for a 3 month stay who disappear into the community with no check for immigration because they are classified tourists or some other class .
    Twila
    8th Mar 2013
    5:35pm
    aquatrek,

    I imagine that you know the meaning of many words that I don't.
    Aloysius
    8th Mar 2013
    7:38pm
    A cab-owner close friend has discussed the issues with many young Afghan men he has transported. He advises that families club together to pay the people smugglers the fare for a fit young man who can make the trip. When here, he will apply for family reunions for everyone else. He also advised that they generally despise us and consider our girls to be trash to be used and discarded. They believe in Jihad and that they earn their place in Heaven by killing infidels. watch out.
    Aloysius
    8th Mar 2013
    10:02pm
    One young Afghan man stated that Afghanistan belongs to the Taliban and that he hoped that the Taliban kills all our soldiers. Makes you wonder why he's here as he's not running from the Taliban.
    geomac
    8th Mar 2013
    10:15pm
    Well thats settled it then Al . Your cab owner close friend is an expert in all matters concerning Afghan men and even knows what they think . Well no point in any further discussion , done and dusted .
    A hoon did wheelies leaving a booze up in Morwell lost control and careered into a front garden in the next street killing a young child . He was not only over the limit but was driving while already having lost his licence . The child was the son of a Sudanese christian family . Am I to take it that the young aussie bogan is typical of all aussie bogans and all drive drunk and unlicensed ? Why not because I have the evidence and I am just as " expert " as the friend who owns a cab . Actually not owning a cab might mean I,m less cynical so a better judge . You would back me up Al surely ?
    Aloysius
    8th Mar 2013
    11:04pm
    It's a straight report of what the Afghanis said. You are welcome to believe whatever you wish but an exchange of information is useful for some people. My cabbie does not claim to be an expert and neither am I but I do have post-graduate qualifications and academic experience in this area of study.
    geomac
    8th Mar 2013
    11:46pm
    In this area of study ? Has this area of study got a title ? Strange that you say you have qualifications but don,t say what in . Its an area of study . You do realise how ludicrous that sounds ? You have experience in that area of study but cannot think of an area of study that has a name such as human behaviour , social sciences or even a made up course . I,m sorry to be blunt but your cred is shot to pieces . I have experience in detecting BS but I haven,t had post grad or academic experience in " that area of study " .
    Aloysius
    8th Mar 2013
    11:58pm
    You pompous ass. Who set you up as the expert on anything. Who gave you the right to judge everybody else. Who gave you the right to demand everyone's credentials whilst ignoring your own. This is not meant to be an academic forum but since you insist, i have a masters degree in defence studies from the Australian Defence Force Academy with a thesis on Afghanistan and theses on other modern strategic issues. i am retired but I had 35 years with Defence and several years as a director of strategic studies at the Joint Services Staff College under the auspices of the University of NSW preparing senior officers for policy positions and graduate diplomas. I have several other tertiary qualifications which I chose not to detail here.
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    2:18am
    Well Al , thats a strong response . Where did I demand anything ? I provided mine , experience in detecting BS . No papers or certificates and I didn,t suggest any so I would think pompous ass a bit over the top . I didn,t make some vague reference to studies I put it out there that I had nothing but life experience . So I would say I had no tickets on myself . How do any of the studies you generously provided give any insight into the thinking and objectives of the general muslim population ? If you think those studies give you an insight why did you rely on a cab owner to state your case ? This may not be an academic forum but you yourself introduced the subject of studies and post graduate qualifications not I . Thats the thing Al I didn,t say I was trained or had studied anything but questioned what area of study you had because you failed to mention any . Now that you have mentioned areas of study other than having a good education and intelligence you don,t seem any better qualified than any other poster to air an opinion . Note I didn,t insist on anything so English grammar is not your strong point or am I being too literal ? I only went to 4th form tech school and English was not a strong subject however I can read whats written not what I think is written .
    Aloysius
    9th Mar 2013
    8:22am
    perhaps you now realise how offensive your superior stance comes across.
    Perhaps you could try listening, comprehending, a little humility and less preaching. By tour own admission you have no grounds to set yourself above others. I made no case but shared some information from a source with first hand contacts. I f you believe my cabbie is a liar you should state why you think this is so - he has top level integrity in my book. Look at the message and leave the messenger alone.
    sensible senior
    8th Mar 2013
    8:30pm
    geomac yes there is a aussie way of life meat pies kangaroos how you going mate and have a beer with Duncan caused Duncans me mate on the trivial side of the situation.
    geomac
    8th Mar 2013
    10:16pm
    G,day Senior
    sensible senior
    8th Mar 2013
    8:41pm
    why arnt there any white people coming by boat what i object to is that they are mainlhy young men or children 5,000 dollars is a lot of money in their world do the family get together witgh the money and then they arrange for the family to come here with children does the mother and father granted permission to come and look after them they should stop having so many children and stand together in their own country to fight the wrongs but no they do not have democary about time they stood up for themselves.
    Twila
    8th Mar 2013
    10:57pm
    geomac,

    Recently an Islamic cleric sent hate lettters to families whose sons/husbands had died in Afghanistan. It was in the news. None can see this but being completely dispicable. Undoubtedly he shares his opinions with others in his mosque; undoubtedly they agree with him. This man enjoys a safe democracy whilst Australians, rightly or wrongly, are fighting and dying in Afghanistan to bring democracy there. Personally, I don't think democracy can be forced from the outside, but can only develop internally. Also democracy can be relative - democracy for some, but not for others.

    We are accustomed to criticising ideologies/religions even by those who are adherents. Catholics criticise the Church. What is worrying is the deafening silence from the Islamic community of issues concerning extremist Islamic elements. I'm sure there are many, many Muslims who dislike these. But until they raise their voices and protest, the Australian community will see the Islamic community as a single monolith, warts and all - and will not trust them. Muslims want acceptance, but are not prepared to give assurances by criticising elements which bring Islam into disrepute. Under these circumstances it is understandable that many Australians are not wholeheartedly prepared to accept Islam.

    Some Aussies grumbled about different arrivals in the past, and this was racism. But the disatisfaction has never been so wide spread and ongoing as seen with Muslim new arrivals. This is not racism. Ideologies/religions should be examined and criticised as the circumstances warrant. This is not racism.
    student
    13th Mar 2013
    2:55pm
    Twila, I am not having a go at you but isn't it odd that we (a free, democratic country) are fighting in another country to give/force them, to be democratic??

    However, you keep saying '... this is not racism... "when talking about Muslims. I know you are referring to 'the boat people' and not a specific race, but do you include the Australian born Muslims?? What about the Christian or Calathumpian asylum seekers?? Or what about the atheists?? You are adding to the demonising of asylum seekers.
    Becker
    13th Mar 2013
    4:44pm
    Good points student.
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    6:37am
    demonizing of asylum seekers ??????????????????????????????????????? does that mean that their heads spin around while they spew green vomit profusely everywhere ? If Twila can induce that then we must call the caster out of demons for Twila to be saved from eternal damnation. Maybe Twila hides from the daylight between bouts of blood sucking? Essentially what Twila has said is just plain common sense which you seem to lack student and Becker.
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    12:01am
    Twila
    I followed that case as well and it was despicable , a mongrel act . Had he done it by phone he would have been guilty under the act . I have read articles and letters criticising radical mulims by muslims but they don,t get the attention the ratbags do . You must have seen some in the Age or SMH .
    Howard ramped up the fear factor and the dog whistle . Before him we had a united approach to new arrivals . United as in broad political agreement . Like WMDs Howard used the Tampa and boat arrivals as a political weapon . No one is looking for WMDs any more and Wilke who was vilified by Howard was proven correct . Howard knew Wilke was correct but kept up the BS about WMDs anyway . Thats the difference between now and the past Twila , Howards dog whistle .
    Interesting moniker Twila
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    6:40am
    the NLP stopped the boats - the ALP have encouraged the boats !!! and are directly complicit in every death that that has brought about.
    speakup
    9th Mar 2013
    7:02am
    It dosn't matter if immigrants illegal or not that arrive in Australia most are not assimilating into the Australian way of life ,they try and change our way of life back to the the conditions they left of the country they left for some unknown reason.The U.K is a prime example of the problem ,many towns and cities there are almost unrecognizable ,even the English language is disappearing .There seven schools in London alone,where the main language is not English .The Muslims and Sharia law is becoming a major problem as it is in many European ,and we are not learning by these countries mistakes.It is very sad but Multiculturalism will never work without Assimilation
    Becker
    13th Mar 2013
    4:59pm
    My ties with the UK remain strong.

    Many British towns and cities there are NOT 'almost unrecognizable'.

    '....even the English language is disappearing' !!!! Unbelievable! Literally.

    NO. It is not!

    We don't quit do we? I'll bet the Chinese latterly, and particularly the Vietnamese are breathing a sigh of relief that they are now not the targets.

    Going after Moslems will occupy us for a good while; they are not a culture/belief system/race (pick whichever suits), who take vilification likely.

    The West aka the USA, interfered in their world, (it did NOT start with 11/9), and all that has been achieved is increasing militancy and fundamentalism. We did that; the West did that. 'We' have empowered 'them.'

    Not the smartest thing we ever did to please our master: the US.

    If we live through this, I wonder who the target de jour will be after that?
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    6:49am
    despite your assurances that everything is just 'peachy' then why the firm stance by France to ban the Islamic uniform for women and the political uproar by those from Holland like Wilders. Islam does not assimilate into western democratic societies as the prior immigrants to this country DID because those that came here did not bring with them an ideology that has its own laws to supercede those of this land. The Vietnamese do not harbour things like honour killings or FGM. I had the privilege of having a young student stay with me and his way of life is steeped in ideological traditions that are centuries old. He was happy to go back home because he could not envisage himself living happily in Oz. He was a realist - not like you Becker.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    8:27am
    Amazingly on this Aquatrek we can agree. Islam will never assimilate with a nation, built as ours was and is on Christian principles. It is sad for the individuals, but more sad for us if we keep our eyes shut to what the Koran says to the Muslim about non-beleivers, especially Christians and Jews.
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    8:35am
    PS - my student was a wannabe university entrant from Saudi Arabia aged 23 who went home when he failed English to be a teacher of Islamic history - he got married straight away to the girl that his mother chose and when I asked him for a picture of her at their wedding [he had sent ones of himself] he said that his laws wouldnt allow that !!! They live in a culture that is vastly different from the Oz one so they cannot comprehend how we live when they do arrive here by boat. Their minds are filled with smuggler propaganda to entice them to come. The ALP have much to answer for.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    8:43am
    If I remember rightly it was Malcom Fraser who allowed the first recent migration of Muslims back in the 70's against counsel not to. Can hardly blame any current government. Always hard to shut the stable door when the horse has bolted.
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    8:54am
    If you are going to argue then try to make some decent attempt to do so - the topic is about unlawful asylum refugee seekers that arrive here by boat - the majority are Sharia Muslims and that is where the issue lies. The failed ALP policies [there were many] have allowed many more than previously did to arrive. So argue against that if you can. Otherwise ................
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    2:52pm
    Well aquatrek You put your trust and faith in man's solutions, politicians even - so no wonder you are disappointed at the results.

    Could it be since 2007 there has also been a major increase in the refugee population on the planet and there were more people seeking to enter Australia. You cannot really argue that any political party had an answer. I am apolitical, preferring to be a thinking voter so I do not put my trust in any politicians. But if that is all you have, I guess you have to go with it. :0)
    toot2000
    9th Mar 2013
    8:19am
    Geomac is the champion of the Labor Party and the Muslim community. If someone criticizes Julia, he will have a swipe back at John Howard, if you have a go at the Muslims, he becomes their champion and will produce a boring cut and paste he's found to support his point. There is always one pain in the neck on every forum, and we have Geomac.
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    12:15pm
    There is always at least one person who resents their view being challenged . Resents falsehoods not being accepted as fact . Doesn,t like their simplistic view of the world being questioned , is it valid ?
    Champion ? I would have thought anyone who sees crap and obvious untruths being spouted would ask the one spreading the crap to back it up with something solid .
    You would rather I didn,t Toot ? You would rather I accepted BS as ok , be a sheep . accept spin and shut up . Well Toot its an open forum so tough titties , its not a Pinochet Chile here yet so various opinion s can be aired . I would have thought a person would enjoy being the champion of truth and revel in putting me in my place by giving me facts . Sadly people retreat , get resentful or occasionally back up their claims by producing what you call boring cut and paste . Facts or proof are boring eh toots ? Yeah , fiction is better and a person can make it up as they go along . You one of them edjumacted peeple toots , beat the pants off the likes of me , by gum .
    Becker
    13th Mar 2013
    4:42pm
    toot2000:

    ...................and then there were two.

    I was hoping to avoid this thread, but what the hell; I'm in!
    Becker
    13th Mar 2013
    5:17pm
    .......mmmm, sorry. There are not 'just two' at all, are there?

    I did not mean to ignore some posts that for me personally are gratifying. Thank-you for them.

    I suppose it is human nature to attack an individual if that individual is able to make a point that the pack mentality would rather ignore. Such a shame.


    (What a weird format this place has!)
    from the nanny state
    9th Mar 2013
    8:40am
    after reading so many comments from Sylvia...... she is spot on with what she says.
    I am voting for Sylvia in the coming election..... good on you Sylvia.
    from the nanny state
    9th Mar 2013
    8:48am
    The refugees who board planes to come here obviously have papers to identify themselves.... then why are all their papers missing once they have landed here..... simply because they have been turfed..... so simply they are nothing but dishonest people and should be flown straight back and made to get off at gunpoint. Let the country of origin find out who they are.....whilst they sit in their gaols for years.....at their personal expense.
    Radish
    9th Mar 2013
    9:25am
    what gets up my nose is that we take people in, feed, house, clothe them and once they are established here what do they do...try and change our way of life. This never happened with migrants/refugees post war...the problem is we have people who want to live as they did thousands of years ago but pick the eyes out of the modern society as it suits them. i.e. mobile phones, computers, modern homes, cars, welfare.
    well it ain't going to happen ...if people want to ride around on donkey, live in a tent, pray 7 times a day, live under Sharia law well go and live in a country with similar values to your own. I note that there are 35 Muslims in custody for terrorism half of whom were asylum seekers. Makes you wonder about the checking (or lack of it).
    niemakawa
    9th Mar 2013
    10:37am
    Yes and Julia Gillard and the her "True believers" let the influx of Muslims into this Country go on unabated. About time she told the truth for once and explained to the people of Australia the real reason.( I am already chuckling to myself at what I have just suggested). We need a Geert Wilders of our own to champion the rights of the Australian people. Islam is not a religion, but an ideology just like any other political party. Muslims the followers have absolutely no intention of assimilating into the community and will continue to pursue their own needs and wants. They will not be calling Australia "Home" any time soon.
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    12:29pm
    Bernardi is your Wilders so your wish is already granted . He has his own site so , heaven on a stick for you Macjam . Wall to wall Bernardi types .
    AmandaR
    15th Mar 2013
    1:50am
    I have yet to encounter a single immigrant who has tried to change my way of life. I also haven't met anyone riding around the streets of Australia on a donkey. I must live in a parallel universe, not Australia.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    8:04am
    AmandaR One cannot assume that the behaviour of one or two reflects the agenda of the whole. The Koran gives the command to Islamize the world and those who are committed to this religio/political/legal way of thinking are bound by the Koran. It is a long term agenda, but it will manifest itself.
    AmandaR
    15th Mar 2013
    11:28am
    If it's a long term agenda, they are taking their sweet time. Given my age, and the even longer period Muslims have been residing in Australia, the onslaught is a long time coming indeed.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    3:18pm
    amandaR Have you ever heard of "sleepers?"
    Abby
    9th Mar 2013
    9:50am
    Japan has the right idea - do not let them in not even for holidays.
    sensible senior
    9th Mar 2013
    10:11am
    The federal government spent $500,000 how best to celebrate 100 years of the gallipoli landing and this is what they came up with we would upset some people in the community by celebrating anzac day and now they are going to throw another $100000 to someone to find out why it was suggested we tone down Anzac Day toning down because it may offend some immigrant. supplied by John Carlile J>P>State President Qld.Div.A.F.C and RAAF Assoc.
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    12:42pm
    Doesn,t it strike you as strange Senior that a foreign country , Australia , has such a warm welcome from Turkey , a secular moslem country and allows us to commemorate our part in the attack on their land ? It was a campaign that was lost in the first few days , a disaster . The myth was created to keep up enlistment and hide the terrible planning and implementation . Villiers Bretoneaux had more fatalities , more heroics and wasn,t a complete disaster yet most aussies hardly know it .
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    6:52am
    Geomac wants our national myths like Anzac destroyed - for what reason ?
    student
    9th Mar 2013
    12:31pm
    Drew, I am disgusted that once again racism is on the agenda. You don't have to be a genius to know this forum will bring out all the nasties and the nastiness in good people. Of course the Australian Human Rights Commission has no legal right to go into an sovereign state and check out conditions ... and I am sure you know that.

    The asylum seekers are fleeing for their lives, not because they want to take over Australia. Maybe if the Government employed more clerks in the assessing ports and hurried up the checking process, things may be better, but that still wouldn't stop the educated and elite from using people smugglers.

    This is a volatile topic and I am sick of Muslims being denigrated as a race. It is a religion NOT a race. As an Australian with a devote and deep Christian faith, it alarms me to hear the fear mongering and racial/religious vilification of those less fortunate that us. War and trauma is usually caused by greed, We Aussies are a good people, welcome the true asylum seekers and yes, return the others to their country of origin. Let us learn from each other.
    Aloysius
    9th Mar 2013
    1:05pm
    Suggest that you have a look at the Qúran and see it for what it is - a total way of life with no tolerance for any other viewpoint. A way of life that treats women as second class with few rights and regards infidels as animals. It is a sin to associate with non-muslims. Not all muslims are extremists but it is the extremist group that holds sway. There is published evidence that they have a plan to take over the West.
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    2:09pm
    Fair comment student .
    I wonder if Al has read or listened to orthodox Jewish thoughts and ideas on scripture . Maybe observed the practices of the Exclusive Brethren or Mormons who reject govt. laws on having multiple wives . Travelled to Turkey or maybe Lebanon before it was torn apart by Israel and Syria ? Apparently it is the extremist group that holds sway according to Al but events seem to contradict that view . The extremists cause untold trouble but I can,t think of anywhere in the world where they hold sway by general consensus or even dictatorship . The Taliban in Afghanistan held sway by the gun but that is the exception rather than the rule . Al I can pick out pieces in the bible that tally with your description of extremists but I know thats not what most follow . I wouldn,t use that cheap trick to push an agenda . I could provide a link showing islamic similarities to the ten commandments in the verses of the koran . If you insist I will take the time to see where I posted them for another poster . If you don,t insist I wont bother as I don,t feel you will care to look . It wouldn,t suit your view . My back is playing up and need to move around a bit , prolapsed disc a few months ago and don,t wish to aggravate it . Unbelievable pain if it strikes , like an electric volt shooting from buttock to sole of the foot if foot takes weight . Prolonged sitting not good .
    Aloysius
    9th Mar 2013
    3:03pm
    I have read widely and am confident that my research stands up. I accept your claim to be an expert on BS as you certainly practise it. Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
    Aloysius
    9th Mar 2013
    3:16pm
    What Judaism holds to be true is totally irrelevant to the "invasion" of the West by Islam. The Jews are not trying to convert the gentiles and they are not trying to take over the West. Some would say they effectively influence the West sufficiently by their success in busines, etc around the world already.The Q'uran is quite clear on its intolerant and belligerent attitude to women and outsiders. The Devil can cite scripture for his purpose but the teachings of Christianity can be summed as "love the Lord" and "love your neighbour".
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    4:20pm
    I think you will be able to differentiate between judaism and zionism Al so view that difference in my reply . Israel is a imposition in the middle east a Jewish state that is no different from Iran an islamic state , both states claim that status . Isreals first leader was a member of a terrorist group and later others were too . Surely you don,t need me to remind you of the bombing of the King David hotel ? Israel shipped thousands of people illegally into Palestine past the British . A jewish citizen of 10 years having come from Russia or the USA has more legal rights than an arab who is also an Israeli citizen with heritage going back centuries . Thats the law under a jewish state as witnessed by evictions etc . Israel lays claim to occupied territories and some zionists think it should be extended to Jordan .
    Now if your going to cite love your neighbour how about practising it ? As for love the lord well go for it , none of my business . Thats your thing and if it gives you solace or inspiration , more strength to you . As a point in discussion or having validity , faith is a belief , an abstract not a tangible thing and therefor irrelevant to me . I,m not going to bag you for believing in it but it carries no weight other than to satisfy you in your interpretation of your belief .
    You didn,t say if you would read the ten commandments thing I mentioned just that I can cite what I like in a disparaging way . I,m unsure if its worth trawling through my posts to post the address just for you to dismiss it without checking it out . BTW regardless of if its a scripture or verse from any faith they all have flaws and deficiencies as well as some good points and I don,t discriminate in believing none of them as a way living a decent life . Live and let live sort of thing . Some would call me a lapsed Catholic and I would say I,m agnostic . I think I,m in a better position to judge as you are with yourself .
    Aloysius
    9th Mar 2013
    7:38pm
    The jewish people were driven out by the Romans in 70 AD. Any suggestion that they have no right to be in israel is a myopic view of history. I decliner to debate the Jewish people and their faith as a reasonable factor in the Islamic invasion of Western countries. Although I did not claim to be a Christian I am happy to do so. Love your neighbour means to care for all people, which is right and proper regardless of your faith. It is not threatening. It does not mean "submit to your neighbour's dogma" or tear down your borders or let your people suffer.
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    7:48pm
    Thats my take on love your neighbour too Al .
    niemakawa
    9th Mar 2013
    2:14pm
    “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.” — Qur’an:8:12
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    7:01am
    Rantings by an ideology that is steeped in dogma from 1,500 years ago. Its a shame that it is still being used and that is the underlying issue - it has not changed to accommodate an ever changing world. Whereas the Catholics are being reluctantly forced to accept change as in the new Papa's acceptance of condoms. Ideological change is a slow slow process while the world gallops full speed ahead. The world will see much trauma providing the horse rider can stay mounted as the horse leaps over the fences. [ a cute analogy that I just invented haha]
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    8:39am
    Aquatrek Interested how you use the word "forced" in describing what you think is happening in Roman Catholocism. Do you applaud "force" when it is used against Christian denominations and yet castigate it elsewhere??
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    8:49am
    WOT ? the catholics are being forced by public pressure to wake up to themselves as they face public crisis after crisis and Islam is also being forced by public pressure all over the world [see the Putin speech post way below]. Islam attempted to dominate the world once before but were stopped in Spain - now they have infiltrated many countries via immigration [UK, EU, Russia, Oz etc] and others have been overthrown [Iran] while others struggle to shake the Islamic shackles off [Egypt - the Arab Spring Movement which started in Tunisia]. So I applaud resistance to any ideology that attempts to dictate and control free thinking peoples everywhere and that includes christianity. A secular governed world will be a safer more loving world.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    3:57pm
    aquatrek
    Have you ever noticed that no-one can "force" good and great things.
    One cannot "force" love, respect, hope, sincerety, honour, happiness, joy, fulfilment, assurance etc.

    Force can only ever be negative surely??
    Aloysius
    9th Mar 2013
    3:00pm
    The 15-year prison sentence given to a woman and her seven children by an Egyptian court for converting to Christianity is a sign of things to come, according to alarmed human rights advocates who say the nation's Islamist government is bad news for Christians in the North African country.

    A criminal court in the central Egyptian city of Beni Suef meted out the shocking sentence last week, according to the Arabic-language Egyptian paper Al-Masry Al-Youm. Nadia Mohamed Ali, who was raised a Christian, converted to Islam when she married Mohamed Abdel-Wahhab Mustafa, a Muslim, 23 years ago. He later died, and his widow planned to convert her family back to Christianity in order to obtain an inheritance from her family. She sought the help of others in the registration office to process new identity cards between 2004 and 2006. When the conversion came to light under the new regime, Nadia, her children and even the clerks who processed the identity cards were all sentenced to prison.

    Samuel Tadros, a research fellow at Hudson Institute's Center for Religious Freedom, said conversions like Nadia's have been common in the past, but said Egypt's new Sharia-based constitution "is a real disaster in terms of religion freedom.”

    "Now that Sharia law has become an integral part of Egypt's new constitution, Christians in that country are at greater risk than ever." - Jordan Sekulow, executive director of the American Center for Law and Justice

    "The cases will increase in the future," Tadros said. "It will be much harder for people to return to Christianity."

    President Mohamed Morsi, who was elected last June and succeeded the secular reign of Hosni Mubarak, who is now in prison, pushed the new constitution through last year.

    Tadros said the constitution limits the practice of Christianity because “religious freedom has to be understood within the boundaries of Sharia.” He added that the constitution prescribes that the highest Sunni authority should be referred to as an interpreter of the religion clause contained in the constitution.

    Opponents of the constitution, including Coptic Christians and secular and liberal groups, protested at the time against passage of the document because of the mix of Islamic-based Sharia law and politics. Roughly 10 percent of Egyptians are Coptic Christians.

    A government spokeswoman told FoxNews.com she would determine “who is responsible for this and covers this issue in Beni Suef,“ a city of 200,000 located about 75 miles south of Cairo. She did not offer further comment.

    The case is the latest example of the increasingly dire plight of the nation's roughly 7 million Christians, say human rights advocates.

    "Now that Sharia law has become an integral part of Egypt's new constitution, Christians in that country are at greater risk than ever," said Jordan Sekulow, executive director of the American Center for Law and Justice. "This is another tragic case that underscores the growing problem of religious intolerance in the Muslim world. To impose a prison sentence for a family because of their Christian faith sadly reveals the true agenda of this new government: Egypt has no respect for international law or religious liberty.”

    Morsi has been under fire for failing to take action against rising violence inflicted on Egypt’s Christians. In August, the roughly 100-family Christian community in Dahshour was forced to flee after Muslim neighbors launched attacks against the Christians’ homes and property. Morsi said the expulsion and violence was “ blown out of proportion.” Radical Salafi preachers -- who have formed alliances with Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood -- called for Muslims to shun Christians during Christmas.

    Sekulow urged U.S. diplomatic intervention in Egypt to promote religious freedom. Morsi is scheduled to meet with President Obama, possibly in March.

    ”The U.S. State Department must play more of a role in discouraging this kind of persecution," Sekulow said. "The U.S. should not be an idle bystander. The U.S. provides more than $1 billion to Egypt each year. The State Department should speak out forcefully against this kind of religious persecution in Egypt.”

    Benjamin Weinthal is a journalist who reports on Christians in the Middle East and is a fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. Follow Benjamin on Twitter: @BenWeinthal.

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/16/egyptian-court-sentences-entire-family-to-15-years-for-converting-to/#ixzz2N0mVIWNy
    Twila
    9th Mar 2013
    3:51pm
    geomac,

    We have had Muslims in this country since the 19th century. They opened up the Australian desert and we willl ever owe them a debt of gratitude. They are cemented in Australian history. There are mosques dating from that era here. Many married local girls. One famous post advertises "Join us for a end-of-Ramadan and Christmas feast" We have had other Muslims coming to live and coming to study. There has never been any ill-feeling against them. Australians as a people are fair-minded.

    What many are seeing now are many fundamentalists, who are not even welcome in some Muslim countries. When I lived in Malaysia, the women wore form fitting and diaphanous kebaya and sarong, their hair flowing free and makeup. Men and women danced together, ronging. They were a joyous people and devout Muslims. Now I see photographs of women being publicly flogged for drinking a glass of beer. I don't see the joy they once expressed.

    Many Indonesians are concerned that fundamentalism, never seen before, will take hold. They are aware of the problems.

    I know Iranians who are avowed apostates. The Iranian penal code: girls of 9 years, boys of 14 yrs, are liable for execution.

    Asylum seekers come here for a better life. Whilst the men enjoy this priviledge, many of their womenfolk don't - their lives are as controlled and miserable as before. No change for them. A friend in a government conciliation dept. had to make a report on a young wife who had imolated herself because of physical and mental abuse. I was informed this is far from an isolated case. Yes, we have suicides because of domestic abuse/violence, but it is not sanctioned by religious zealots.

    Keeting brought in al-Halily. Why? We had excellent Muslim clerics here. Keeting did this to win the new Muslim vote. Similarly he embraced the Catholic senator in Tasmania with a sweet-heart deal. Not to send birth-control methods or information to third world countries. Maternal mortalities and crippling birth injuries rose, and many in very young women.

    Undoubtedly, the Qu'ran in places is similar to the Ten Commandments. Islam is a very new 'kid on the block,' coming some considerable time after Judaism and Christianity. The influence of the commandments is know as appropriation.
    Twila
    9th Mar 2013
    4:00pm
    Aloysius,

    Christian persecution occurs convulsively in Arab Muslim states. This has been going on for a long time.

    Arab Muslim states are virtually Judenfrei.
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    5:28pm
    I don,t understand the use of the word convulsively . It may be my ignorance or something else but in your context the meaning escapes me . Not having a go just saying I don,t understand .
    jewish pop. 48 to 2008 Wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Jewish_population_in_Arab_countries.2C_1948.E2.80.932008
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    5:31pm
    That doesn,t work so go to wiki and type this for page Twila .
    Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
    Twila
    9th Mar 2013
    5:31pm
    geomac,

    Prior to the bombing of the King David hotel, numerous warnings were phoned in. Indeed a couple of the senior officers left prior, and colonial officers were very disparaging of the handling of this even.

    The "illegal" shipping: These were of Jews who had survived the death camps. The British either bombed them out of the water, or imprisoned them on arrival.

    Israel is a democracy, with equal rights for all. There are Arabs serving in the Knessett and as ambassadors.

    Palestinians, many thousands enter Israel daily to work. They enjoy equitable wages with Israelis, and also equal governmental allowances, such as free health care.
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    7:03am
    funny how Geomac ignores the facts when confronted with them eh Twila ?
    Twila
    9th Mar 2013
    5:33pm
    "Arab Spring and the Israeli enemy"

    Abdulateef Al-Mulhim (Abdulateef Al-Mulhim is commodore (Retd.), Royal Saudi Navy.)
    Saturday 6 October 2012
    http://www.arabnews.com/arab-spring-and-israeli-enemy

    “Finally, if many of the Arab states are in such disarray, then what happened to the Arabs’ sworn enemy (Israel)? Israel now has the most advanced research facilities, top universities and advanced infrastructure. Many Arabs don’t know that the life expectancy of the Palestinians living in Israel is far longer than many Arab states and they enjoy far better political and social freedom than many of their Arab brothers.

    Even the Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip enjoy more political and social rights than some places in the Arab World. Wasn’t one of the judges who sent a former Israeli president to jail is an Israeli-Palestinian?

    The Arab Spring showed the world that the Palestinians are happier and in better situation than their Arab brothers who fought to liberate them from the Israelis. Now, it is time to stop the hatred and wars and start to create better living conditions for the future Arab generations.”
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    5:49pm
    Twila I,m sure your aware that the USA gives Israel 5 to 7 billion dollars a year every year and has done since 1948 . Then you have the billions sent from the likes of Joe Gutnick and other orthodox or non orthodox jews worldwide . Thats a lot of moolah . These Palestinians you mention are certainly not the ones in the occupied territories or Gaza . On the time to stop hatred and wars I couldn,t agree more Twila . Maybe Israel should sign up to the nuclear treaty and ditch its arsenal of hundreds of nuclear warheads ?
    Twila
    9th Mar 2013
    6:39pm
    The above was written by a respected Saudi, a retired Admiral.

    Those entering Israel to work are Palestinians from the West Bank. They also prefer Israeli hospitals.

    USA also gives billions of dollars to oil rich states. I agree all aid should stop. This aid is crippling the USA.

    The Palestians who enter Israel are from the West Bank.

    No-one knows the nuclear ordnance of Israel. They have neither used them, nor threatened to use them. However, having nuclear weapons has been a deterent to attacks from nearby states.

    Why shouldn't Israel have nuclear armaments? England and France have them.

    The 1948 exodus of Jews from Arab States. They were forced to go with only the clothes on their backs. Arabs states confiscated all their monies, properties, public buildings such as hospitals and schools, etc.

    When people speak of the sufferings of the Palestinians, they always ignore their civil war of recent times. More lives were lost in the first ten months of that civil war, than had been lost in all the conflicts with Israel. So many fled the territory, and tried to flee, that a fatwa was imposed that Palestinians could only leave for education, with the intention to return.

    In fact, there have been more conflict and bloodshed between, and within, Arab states, than has been with Israel.

    Incidentally, Mandella was considered a "terrorist".
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    7:24pm
    Why shouldn't Israel have nuclear armaments? England and France have them.
    Good point and indeed why not also sign the nuclear non proliferation agreement like England and France ?
    Yes Mandella was considered a terrorists and ones mans terrorists is another mans freedom fighter. I also agree about the USA . How they can give billions away to Israel and Egypt is beyond me yet make no demands on having that money spent on things other than armaments , makes no sense . I,m not saying one is right or any have anything to be proud of as wherever you look all seem to have thrown logic out the window . What I find the most stupid is that they have the same diet , Halal and Kosher , same bloodlines and are all semites . Similar to the " troubles " in Ulster . May as well be footy or soccer teams , same but slightly different .
    Taskid
    11th Mar 2013
    6:21pm
    twila It is useless trying to discuss with geomac. He knows all there is to know about everything it seems.

    You are correct in what you say about the Jews and Israel. Geomac talks nonsense dressed up as knowledge.
    toot2000
    9th Mar 2013
    6:58pm
    You have to ask yourself who you support, you can't sit on the fence forever. For me, it's a no brainer, I support a valued friend, isolated and surrounded by the hostile Arab world who hate them and us. I support Israel first, second, and always.
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    7:43pm
    My country right or wrong always seemed a strange thing to say toot . Are you suggesting I can,t say their all wrong in their thinking when thats what I see . Are you Australian toot ? the reason I ask is because of your stated support not any other reason . Surely you would support Australia first and Israel second unless you had dual citizenship with both countries . Personally I find the concept of dual citizenship puzzling . you either are or are not a citizen of a country .
    Taskid
    11th Mar 2013
    6:29pm
    Toot Israel is an amazing country and you are right, they are surrounded by those who seek to destroy them. Even so, they have created a terrific country and have provided many talented people and much in the way of technology and invention. \
    They are not perfect, but no country or human being is (**comment edited by the moderators**), but they have done much in a very short time. Shame our country does not have that sort of talent and drive.
    sensible senior
    9th Mar 2013
    8:39pm
    can anybody tell me the muslims wont use our banks because its against their religion to be charged interest how do they get their money etc would like to know do they have a bank here in australia.
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    9:03pm
    As far as I,m aware lending , usury is not allowed but if thats in the koran or not I don,t know . I just assumed they would get a mortgage same as anybody else from a bank or credit union . A bank or credit union have to follow regulations such as a set reserve and audits . Investment schemes seem to be able to operate without such restrictions , buyer beware and then avoid anyway .
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    9:08pm
    Senior follow the link ie source . Good question , learn something new every day . Seems my assumption regarding interest was wrong .

    Hmmm no thing/chain to link the source.

    http://www.mcca.com.au/buy-a-home/
    COWBOY
    9th Mar 2013
    11:14pm
    Well said MOTALEON asking would boat people fight for this country if war broke out, icould answer NO , and its not only boat people its a whole range of imports that are out here, how many non australians do you see in the army, no they come out here live the high life and bleed this country while own own are in the army and over seas fighting,come on lets get real all imports join the army for 2 years now lets see how many come.our hospitals are choked, our police force cant cope, we cant find housing for own ( but keep your eyes open and have a look to see who has got the houseing, well you idots in government you keep filling a boat and sure as hell it will sink and thats what you are doing to this country wake up before its two late(whopps its probably to late already)
    geomac
    9th Mar 2013
    11:39pm
    Ever heard of Sgt Saunders Cowboy ? Interesting story well worth checking out . I take it by your post that you would favour conscription . As you know we have a volunteer defence force but in your imaginary scenario you say all or more correctly " a whole range of imports " would not join up in this imagined war with an unknown country or countries .
    Now rather than deal in what ifs lets see the requirements to join up and see if its that simple .
    Only Australian citizens are permitted to serve in the ADF.

    Proof of Australian citizenship
    You will need to provide one of the following documents to prove your Australian citizenship:

    a full Australian Birth Certificate. If you were born in Australia on or after 20 August 1986, you must also provide proof that one of your parents was an Australian citizen, or a permanent resident in Australia, at the time you were born;
    an Australian Passport that had two years validity or more, and was issued after 20 August 1986, but was not cancelled;
    an Australian Citizenship Certificate (including an extract from the register of citizenship by descent or extract from the register of Australian births abroad).

    http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/recruitmentCentre/canIJoin/citizenship/

    I think you need to look into your hypothetical a bit more , don,t you ?
    Aloysius
    10th Mar 2013
    9:16am
    What? Reg Saunders was an original Australian, born in Australia, who fought for Australia. Where does geomac think he came from? Or are you referring to some other Saunders?
    geomac
    10th Mar 2013
    9:26am
    Correct Al , same Saunders . Brilliant soldier and a story worth reading I,m sure you would agree .
    niemakawa
    9th Mar 2013
    11:31pm
    Seems fair comment. The refugees have the upper hand in that they do not have to prove their status, but it is OUR GOVERNMENT who has the ONUS to prove that they are not refugees. Ridiculous situation and needs to be changed so that the these "illegals" have to provide ID documentation before even being considered as a refugee. Until this happens these "boaties" will be living it up at the expense of the Australian taxpayer. Send them back and let them fight for their freedom in their own Country instead of bringing all their hatred to our shores. ISLAM is a fraud.
    geomac
    10th Mar 2013
    12:01am
    As I recall we invaded Iraq illegally creating over a million refugees and thousands upon thousands of civilian deaths . We have been in Afghanistan for over a decade and at one stage had one serving officer there , yes one . That was during Howards time and the Iraq misadventure and Howard , then Rudd and now Gillard tell us we are there till the job is done . What is the job ? A bit like the WMDs that everybody knew was BS but somehow was the original reason for the invasion . Funny how that morphed into nothing and then it was regime change or some other feeble excuse . Not our problem and just bad luck we created all this mess and refugees . Refugees were around before our interference right ? I,m puzzled how to use your quaint term these boaties are living it up on a newstart payment which I,m told is 100 bucks a fortnight less than the pension . I,m on a pension and while I,m not living high I,m doing better than those on Newstart . Let them fight for their freedom in their own country you say but in two countries we took away any chance of doing that away by invading their countries and imposing martial law . I don,t think anyone needs to bring hatred to our shores as we seem to generate enough by ourselves . I wonder if we should change our laws to make it that the accused is guilty until proven innocent rather than our present system ? Whats your thoughts on that idea Macjam ?
    Aloysius
    10th Mar 2013
    12:03pm
    George W Bush went into Iraq because "Saddam Hussein was the man who tried to kill my Daddy". There was no weapon of mass destruction in Iraq. Like the suckers we are, we went too, into an area of limited strategic interest apart from oil. We are now hated by the citizens of most Middle Eastern countries. Not smart.
    geomac
    10th Mar 2013
    12:13pm
    I Could not have put it more succinctly Al . Short and accurate .
    Aloysius
    10th Mar 2013
    1:32pm
    No Al Quaeda either - that's based in friendly countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and we're not going in there.
    student
    13th Mar 2013
    4:03pm
    the job to be done?? Forcing democracy on a sovereign state :)
    sensible senior
    10th Mar 2013
    10:06am
    both parties back up united states of america so if they say go to war we follow and i believe Julia Gillard has done us a disservice by allowing usa military on our shores but she is so far up obamas arse it is not funny his wife should look out you can see by her attitude how much she likes the President.
    geomac
    10th Mar 2013
    10:16am
    Agree on the USA military base Senior , deplorable decision .
    Aloysius
    10th Mar 2013
    12:00pm
    Agreed. China sees it as a provocative move and that won't help relations with our major trading party.
    student
    13th Mar 2013
    4:11pm
    Agree. on the US military base. There is enough 'trouble' around Katherine without having GI's there. The Aborigines don't need it and the whites don't want it. China couldn't really care less. They know we need them to buy our coal.

    I find your language a bit vulgar SS, but then again I found the Howard puppet with his nose in a certain part of the GW Bush puppet course and vulgar too ... but funny :)
    Becker
    13th Mar 2013
    5:28pm
    Broadly agree, though do not see this as a Labor loyalty. It has an Australian Government (whoever) focus to play the USA Simon Says game for a fair while now.

    .......and I shall be damn glad when I get my new glasses. I noted student's comment about vulgarity, and with that mindset read the line: ".....by allowing the usa military on our whores".

    I realise that we are accommodating to our masters, but there are limits..
    student
    18th Mar 2013
    6:17pm
    Becker, I am in the middle of a test for Business and Professional Ethics, and I just read your post re: glasses :) You cracked me up!! Recently I lost my new classes (drove off with them on top if the car!) but had them replaced very cheaply. I obtained a copy of the original script from the optometrist and gave it to a person who grinds and fits the lens in the frame ... I now have $600-00 frames for 1/10th the cost. I'm a real, groovy Granny now :)
    Twila
    10th Mar 2013
    5:50pm
    I agree about Iraq and also Afganistan. Changes can't be imposed from outside, but must come from within; and changes can only be in line with the ideas of the people themselves.

    I don't know our defence capability. But would we be able to repel hungry eyes from the north without US assistance?
    Aloysius
    11th Mar 2013
    8:23am
    Probably not but that doesn't mean we have to be US puppets. The USA will always act in its own interest but it sees Australia as being in a strategically important position so it would assist for that reason. New Zealand has banned US nuclear ships but the USA would not abandon Nz for that reason. Other countries will respect Australia when Australia acts in its own interest rather than someone else's. China already obtains what it wants through economic channels so it is not a military threat to Australia unless we are fighting them for the USA.
    Aloysius
    11th Mar 2013
    8:43am
    War doesn't determine who is right only who is left.
    geomac
    11th Mar 2013
    4:15pm
    Like that saying about how its the winners who get to write history , their version .
    sensible senior
    11th Mar 2013
    10:18am
    i see in the news today that one of the guards of the asylum seekers was attacked by one and he has a fatal disease so he is worried he might die how many more of these people are in the same category
    Becker
    11th Mar 2013
    12:51pm
    It's a real worry, and I have sympathy for the guard-if the story has been reported correctly.

    I also have sympathy for the person who was stabbed with an alleged AID's contaminated blood filled syringe.

    I also have sympathy for those who have contracted severe toxoplasmosis from contaminated earth after free roaming cats have defecated there.

    I also have sympathy for those who have suffered and died slowly of radiation through deliberate bombing or nuclear accident.

    .........I also have sympathy for so very many innocent hundreds of women and children who are 'collateral damage' when we allies go in to 'liberate' their countries and bring them 'freedom'.

    I also have sympathy.
    student
    18th Mar 2013
    6:19pm
    I also agree with you :) You see outside the box.
    Twila
    11th Mar 2013
    4:07pm
    Aloysius,

    I think those countries who have gone to war to defend themselves against invading armies, would argue with you.
    Aloysius
    11th Mar 2013
    4:16pm
    Of course you must defend your own country but you don't need to provoke others to attack you. You don't neeed to wage war in other parts of the world to support corrupt regimes such as in Vietnam in the 60's or Afghanistan today. I support our forces but I don't support the pollies who sacrifice them for unworthy purposes. We are seen as warmongers because we engage in more wars than anyone else after the Americans and we make out that we love peace. Joke!
    Twila
    11th Mar 2013
    4:34pm
    I agree with you that you don't initiate war on others.
    Twila
    11th Mar 2013
    6:34pm
    Asylum (seeker) as per Wiki.
    "... a person who is outside their own country's territory (or place of habitual residence if stateless) owing to fear of persecution on protected grounds. Protected grounds include race, nationality, religion, political opinions and membership and/or participation in any particular social group or social activities."
    aquatrek
    11th Mar 2013
    6:59pm
    I am an asylum seeker from fear of persecution by Life Chuices hehe
    Twila
    13th Mar 2013
    9:36pm
    student,

    You are having a go at me and you have every right to do so. This is a free debate.

    I have stated that I don't think we have should have gone into Iraq or Afghanistan - and - that change can only come from within, as people want it. It may not seem a democracy to us, but democracy means a different thing to different people.

    I have stated also that genuine asylum seekers should be admitted to Australia. I even provided the definition of asylum (seeker),

    No where did I make a blanket condemnation on Islam. I do not like fundamentalists/extremists of any group. I do not like the burqua, but didn't state we should ban it.

    The burqua makes an extremely ugly statement about women and their place in the family and society. Those who force/coerce the burqua on women are those particularly most likely to believe in child marriage, forced marriages, honour killings, etc. These women's lives are not worth that of men and are not valued in any civilised sense. I find the burqua as offensive as the yellow star on Jews.

    Malaysia has seen a gentle Islam become fundamentalist at state level. Many, many Indonesians fear that this will occur there.

    Incidentally, I thought it were these fundamentalist from whom asylum seekers were escaping from. It appears that they are also asylum seekers.

    When I was at university I attended feminist meetings. I raised the issue of FGM and was told we couldn't discuss it due to cultural sensitivities. Horse Feathers! What about suttee which the British banned? Would that have been too culturally sensitive?

    The problem with the pc crowd is that they refuse to acknowledge the gravity of certain elephans pounding around the room.

    No. To criticise ideologies/religion is not racism.
    aquatrek
    13th Mar 2013
    9:45pm
    Twila: with huge respect I congratulate you on your response. So articulate and precise. Its a shame that many on here do not behave that way - always attacking the person because they have nothing better to say. But then maybe we have had the privilege of being higher educated.
    geomac
    13th Mar 2013
    10:24pm
    " I do not like fundamentalists/extremists of any group. "
    I couldn,t agree more . With that sentence not the whole post . The Santamaria types scare the hell out of me , Bernardi or that Danny catch the disease ministries .
    Becker
    13th Mar 2013
    11:07pm
    Agree Geomac, possibly that's why I have huge respect and thank-you for that response, which is so articulate and very precise.

    Unfortunately I have nothing better to say being of a lower education an' all. I do feel a good smack in the chops is infinitely preferable though, if I am unable to convince someone that my view is the unvarnished truth.

    I ponder the chasmic loss to society if we did not have the interpretative concept of Political Correctness. How did we ever manage without it? What on earth would we have available to throw at others if they did not agree with our point of view?

    As verbal gadgets go, this one leads the field in its pliability. Every home should have one ready, to throw at those who do not embrace our path of absolute truth.
    Abby
    14th Mar 2013
    9:31am
    Well said Twilla
    Twila
    13th Mar 2013
    10:22pm
    Thank you, aquatrek,

    Approval from you is greatly valued.
    Twila
    14th Mar 2013
    2:10pm
    geomac,

    You agree that you do not like extremists/fundamentalists of any group. But you approve the burqua which is the particular expression of a fundamentalist group. This is illogical.
    geomac
    14th Mar 2013
    2:18pm
    I haven,t said anywhere that I approve of the burqa . I have said that its not my business to dictate what a person wears , words of that nature . As I recall I mentioned kilts and bishops etc . I don,t think you would appreciate me telling you what you approve or disapprove of without foundation would you ?
    Twila
    14th Mar 2013
    2:13pm
    geomac,

    To clarify. An extremist belief given visual expression and action.
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    2:27pm
    Twila I have not followed every post on this topic as I have been busy, but I do agree with you when you speak of your experience at university when FGM was not to be discussed.

    When I went through Uni the extremist atheist senior lecturer was most volatile in his disparagement of the Judeo-Christian world-view and that with a nun in the group. No sensitivity there, very cruel in fact, but he was full of his atheist nonsense so knew no better.

    It amazes me how willing people are in many places to denigrate, ridicule, and worse when it comes to Christianity (I have been the butt of it in here too) but not a word from some about Islam. I wonder if a Muslim poster ever came in here if they would be subject to the same degree of abuse which has come my way.

    Why the tippy toeing around those who follow Islam and yet open slather on Christians.
    Becker
    14th Mar 2013
    3:22pm
    "Why the tippy toeing around those who follow Islam and yet open slather on Christians."

    As a new poster I've become aware of your staunch Christian beliefs, which I do not share, and equally the compassion that you have shown to those who ARE (WHY do some sections have text choice on this forum and not others?)...where was I? Ah Yes! you show compassion to those who are under tremendous pressure (although there are so many who would disagree with that).

    I'm saying I agree and disagree with you.

    The quote: totally disagree! There is no 'tippy toeing' around Islam; this thread is clear evidence of that. The Islamic belief/doctrine is considered to be the utter bogeyman of all belief systems today.

    We DID empower it. 'Islamists' have really circled the wagons and are now increasingly proactive and militant. NOW.
    30 years ago we did not have discussions on this topic.

    Open slather on Christians eh? At the moment we are headlining the news with all matters Pope. We are not discussing how he dresses; how Christians dress.

    On the matter of the burqua/hijab whatever. If...IF women are happy to wear it, then let them!
    The crunch of course is 'happy to'. Well believe it or not, some women like it!
    I have had it with the ...er PC feminists who think they have the right to dictate to their sisters on this issue.
    (And NO! I am not having a go at Twila-you do indeed write eloquent and intelligent posts).

    For me the issue is not the headgear, but the oppression of women; on this and any other issue. Because our current preoccupation is all matters Islam, we pick every aspect of it to bits. No wonder they are angry!

    ...........and yes, in all conscience I would have some security concern about a person covered head to foot going into a bank (I assume they see no point in a terrorist hit on a supermarket..), however, we've even dealt with that haven't we? 'They' don't like using 'our' banks because 'they don't like paying interest'.

    That's an Islam thing is it?
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    4:15pm
    Hi Becker welcome to YLC – The folks here are, on the whole a great mob, despite their often intense dislike of Jesus and I.
    On the tippy toeing I was referring more broadly to politicians, media as well as to some in here who seem to have make it their life’s work to defend Islam.
    On your reference to the Pope, well he heads up a denomination which claims to be Christian. It does seem to make headlines and more the shame that more wonderful things done in Jesus and those done by Him do not make headlines in the secular media. I am not in favour of dressing up in robes etc. Jesus didn’t do it, He rebuked the religious leaders of that time, who did as just trying to exhibit their righteousness (in their own eyes) before those they ruled over. Where additions are made by way of dress, rules, regulations, traditions, rituals to the Holy Word of God, the Bible I consider that to be “religion” – that is, man-made, not God made. Jesus came to set man free, not to make him subject to yet another oppressive human system. Sadly some denominations under the guise of Christianity seem to have adapted themselves to world systems, rather than do what God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit told/tells mankind. Man always thinks he knows better than God sadly.
    Burquas are another oppressive and self-inflicted endeavour to submit to the religio/political/legal system (man-made) and which demands submission of its members, especially women. These people do not know freedom. Sadly their devotion to their system and the Koran has put them in conflict with the West. The aim of Islam is to destroy all but itself. Jews and Christians are particularly selected for persecution and even death according to their Koran. I understand under the Koran the Buqua or Hijab is not required wearing. I think it has more to do with the pride and sense of possession from the men.
    I am with you when being against any oppression, especially that of women, but sadly when people are enslaved to a system predominantly male which sees them as a belonging not a person, I think oppression reigns. Thanks for your comment.
    Twila
    14th Mar 2013
    2:26pm
    geomac,

    If the burqua was a garment worn with the belief that it made the wearer more alluring and attractive, I would not disaprove. I would think I had "missed something," but I would not have disapproved.
    Twila
    14th Mar 2013
    2:35pm
    Taskid,

    The Judeo-Christian decalogue influenced - was at the heart of - the making of western law. Changes have occurred with time as we progress.
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    2:45pm
    Twila Yes you are correct. Not sure about the "we progress" though in some ways we have regressed. :0)
    geomac
    14th Mar 2013
    4:19pm
    I don,t accept this Judeo-Christian term . Judaism is old testament . Islam is the same just a different name ie old world . Christianity as I understand begins with the new . To me plain and simple . I,m not a christian in the census or do I follow a creed . If I had a need for a label others would suggest agnostic or atheist .
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    4:39pm
    geomac Well Australia as a nation is a product of the Judeo-Christian world-view. Our history tells us that. Our consitution and legal system are based on it. Most of our early explorers and those who designed the nation were Christians and spoke openly of their trust in Almighty God and His Son, Jesus.

    Judaism is the roots of Christianity and the Old and New Testament both tell of Jesus coming and ministry as Son of God. The prophets in the OT, written 700 years before His birth tell of his birth to a virgin, where he was to be born in Bethlehem and of the nature of his ministry, execution (Romans had not even invented the cross back then), death and resurrection along with God's purpose in Jesus coming among mankind.

    Islam claims to accept the first five books of the OT but they are mainly bound to their Koran. Islam biblically came from the disobedience of Abraham and Sarah - God told them they would conceive, but they did not believe Him so Abraham had a child with Sarah's bond woman, Hagar. The resulting child was Ishmael. Child of disobedience. God had mercy on him when he was cast out into the desert and told him he would be a mighty nation, but a "wild donkey of a man."

    Christianity has its very roots in Judaism and of course, Jesus came as a Jew born into a Jewish family and He spoke from the Old Testament when reading in the synagogue, resisting the temptations of the devil, and in teaching His followers.
    The two books are intrinsically linked and can be understood as a whole by those in relationship with Jesus the Lord.

    It is fine to describe yourself as agnostic or atheist, it appears to be the "intellectual" "clever" thing to do these days, I used to call myself those things before I realised how mistaken I had been and certainly not clever at all. Man has always tried to deceive himself that he has no need of God. That was went wrong in the beginning and still is. Jesus came to break the back of that deception, but man stubbornly clings to it like a man clinging to a sinking ship. Then he wonders why the world is collapsing and mankind is in turmoil. We can be so silly really.
    All for the sake of pride.
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    4:41pm
    geomac Apologies for the typos and errors. The "edit" option for some reason was not available so I could not correct them. :0)
    aquatrek
    14th Mar 2013
    4:56pm
    Philosophies on spiritual 'belief' systems across many cultures [try Rigverda] have persisted ever since homo sapien sapiens could grunt harmoniously with meaning understood. Therefore anyone with half a brain who is also 'intellectually clever' rejects any one precisely singular dogmatic ritualistic interpretation as a form of 'intellectual brainwashing'. If that is the hat then wear it - probably all that it will do is keep the UV at bay.
    geomac
    14th Mar 2013
    4:56pm
    Taskid
    I stated my view on what I consider to be an inaccurate term . My view hasn,t changed and nor will yours .
    No need to apologise for typos to anyone much less me as I do the same . Picked up a keyboard at the op shop today for 4 bucks , using it now . My wireless keyboard was too small and flat and typos aplenty . Have to readjust to clunky $4 dollar one but if it makes typing easier , good . Some keys have different symbols but same function as my Mac keyboard but numerals and letters same .
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    5:09pm
    Well geomac that is your belief and your God-given choice to run with it. I merely told you the truth.

    Keyboards can be a pain. Worse are the silly keys on mobile phones, mine is rather ancient by today's technological standards - sending a text message take me longer than it would have to get in my car and deliver the message myself. Blows my mind to see these young kids and some oldies belting out texts without even looking. :0)
    Twila
    14th Mar 2013
    2:48pm
    An Arab-Muslim (unfortunately, I cannot recall his name) stated that the high priests of political correctness were condemning his people to ongoing misery. He wanted to see changes made and believed that only with criticism and support from the west could these eventuate.
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    2:55pm
    Oh boy he needs to become a Christian, then he would know real attempts to condemn and make miserable. Islam across the planet is raping, torturing, imprisoning and killing Christians without regard for their well-being.
    Becker
    14th Mar 2013
    3:28pm
    Crikey! It doesn't stop does it?

    Do you seriously believe that the Christian Church is shining knight on such issues?

    Are you only concerned for the deaths of those who follow Christianity?
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    3:48pm
    Becker
    I am not defending the "Christian Church" as you call it as many mistake the real Body of Christ with denominations such as Roman Catholicsm, Anglicanism, Cavlinism etc etc. Yes much evil has been and probably still is done by those masquerading under the "Christian label" - they do not represent the Body of Christ. Only Jesus knows who consitutes His body and they are found in many denominations and in none at all. Jesus tells us, "by their fruits you shall know them" - so if people are committing evil in His name He does not recognise them and they are not Christians.

    Now on persecution, given that Christians are savagely persecuted in 52 countries on the planet mainly by Islam, but some by Hindus and Communist atheists yes I am concerned for them. They suffer only because they follow Jesus. No other reason. Having said that I have great compassion for those who are innocent who die at the hand of others, whether by being ripped out of women's wombs by the millions, by involuntary euthanasia or by war or byany other evil. I hate evil. Hope that makes it clearer to you. :0)
    Becker
    14th Mar 2013
    4:30pm
    I understand what you are saying, but to be honest, for me the issue is not what this belief system or that belief system preaches. It is man's inhumanity to man.

    It is the cruelty and intolerance of the human animal to its own and every other lifeform.
    What compounds it for me is when such evil is perpetrated by those who follow any principle or doctrine of kindness and compassion. 'Love Thine Enemy'/Suffer The Little Children Who Come Unto Me' type of thing, when the opposite occurs.

    ................and yes, these are 'card carrying' Christians.

    The thing is Taskid, the Christian Church does not have clean hands on this and so many other issues.

    The Tali are considered the bad guys; and they are a wee tad naughty.
    The Muja are considered the good guys, yet they follow the principle of 'pleasure boys'. Families are sometimes so impoverished that they will 'sell' their adolescent sons to Muja for their enjoyment.

    I refuse to follow any doctrine that sees itself as some sort of ideal whilst perpetrating this stuff and even covering it up.
    The hypocrisy is stunning!

    I am still burning at being kicked out of my Church based Scouts group, because we were on a long walk and all I said was "Oh God it's hot".

    Busted for blasphemy! Sod 'em I say.....
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    4:59pm
    Becker
    Man is a fallen, sinful creature. There is only one remedy and that is the Person of Jesus Christ. He is not a belief system, He is a Person and true Christians have a relationship with Him. Man was created in the first place to be a friend to God, but he allowed himself to be deceived and has done ever since. The man's inhumanity to man is a direct result of desire of man to be as great as God.

    People may lay claim to "belonging" to a Christian religion, but if the do not know Him as Lord and Saviour, they do not follow Him and what He commanded, they are not Christians. Jesus said that many would come to Him in that day and say they did great things "in His name" but He tells us He will say to them, "Away from me, I never knew you." Jesus alone knows who is and who is not a Christian. However, if people call themselves Christians and do evil without repenting, they only fool themselves and others, not Him.

    I would never encourage anyone to follow a doctrine or a religion. Run a mile from them. I only follow the Person of Jesus, He is more than enough to give me all the love, joy, assurance, peace and courage anyone could want. No worldly man-made doctrine or system can possibly give that. But mankind runs from love a love so great it allowed for a cruel death on a cross to carry our sin, set us free, grant us life, but people run back into the darkness. I did it for many years, denied Him, in pride thought my education and human knowledge was all that was needed, how mistaken I was. I met Jesus, not through any "system," denomination, man-made teachings or by my own effort. All it takes is humility and acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord and He does the rest. I have never looked back and where I came from. I would not go back there for all the riches of the world. Nothing can compare.

    You have been hurt by religion, many are, so they carry a grudge, not realising Jesus did not do them any harm, man did, but it is easier to blame God, then two minutes later deny he exists. Go figure. I say to people who say as you do that bad things happen in denominations - "If you wish to know Jesus, do not look at His people (or those who falsely claim to be), we all let Him down. We are not perfect, He is."
    aquatrek
    14th Mar 2013
    5:02pm
    @Becker: Taskid is really ALIEN MEK in disguise OR a homo sapien sapien with a mental illness. Some just call them 'evangelists'. Whats in a label devised by society one may ask. Remember 'sticks and stones may break my bones but words will harm me'. Is that how that rhyme went - its been so long ........................... ?
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    5:11pm
    Becker Aquatrek is our resident older child. He is harmless, just humour him. :0)
    Becker
    14th Mar 2013
    5:59pm
    Not bad! Views expressed on personality with a soupcon of humour!
    (That soupycon thing is supposed to have a squiggly bit on the c, but talking about keyboards, I don't know where the bliddy thing is).

    Each to his own Taskid, but for the life of me I fail to understand how all you true believers see your deity each as the 'one true God'.

    Fair go; you surely acknowledge that each doctrine devotee actually does truthfully believe ...er, what they believe.
    Doesn't that not so much make you question, but just suspect a little that summat might be wrong because you can't all be right?

    And btw; I think it is an intolerant and unChristian (OK: unJesus) believing thing to be unkind about other belief systems, after all, you don't like them being unkind about yours, do you?

    (This is great! We are giving the asylum seekers a much needed rest).
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    6:30pm
    Becker Oh Aquatrek tried way back to beat me down with his posts, then he gave up and I had some blessed relief. Looks as if the kid is back on trail again. He keeps following me, he might end up meeting Jesus too. :0)

    For me along with millions of other born-again Christians and in reality there is only one God who can be known. Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, etc cannot "know" their gods because they do not exist. The Christian God is the only Living God.

    I realise people have been indoctrinated, grown up with, been brainwashed by belief systems and as they bow to their idols yes they have a form of belief.

    As i know, that I know, that I know that the God Christians know and follow is real it would be hypocritical for me, even cruel to pretend I have regard for their false gods. I have regard for the people, they are lost, although many thousands from all those religions and Bhuddism are waking up to the call from Jesus daily and being set free from their false gods. The Western world is bound up by its own religions of rationalism, intellectualism, atheism and materialism so they are missing out. They choose to remain spiritually dead. Some mess with the occult but they will pay a price for that.

    So no it would not be "Christian" for me to pretend their gods are real. I would be lying. You see that is where unbelief renders us spiritually dead. Only Jesus can remove that death and give us life in Him. It cannot be taught, bought, or obtained by good works. All it requires is humility, sincerety, repentence and receiving Jesus free gift of life. That is why so many flee - human pride has to be put to one side. Pride is a useless thing anyway, an illusion as I found out.

    So we are talking past one another, you speak of religion, I speak of relationship - the former is from man, the latter only ever from God. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father (God) except through Me. I know that to be absolutely true.
    Becker
    14th Mar 2013
    8:34pm
    "Man is a fallen, sinful creature. There is only one remedy and that is the Person of Jesus Christ."

    "For me along with millions of other born-again Christians......."


    Awww Gawd! I should have known.

    It's hard to keep up with your posts because there are so many of them, in fact to the extent that the notification process is clogging up my Inbox. I'm going to have to disable it and pop by only occasionally.

    I'm sorry Taskid, I didn't realise this was BAS. That's an impenetrable wall.
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    9:20pm
    No worries. As I say I speak the truth about Jesus. I am not ashamed of my Lord. One day you will realise, but I have done my part. What is BAS - I shall probably be sorry I asked.
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    5:19pm
    aquatrek Here is a great description of your religion of atheism.

    "Avi Shafran says in the Indignity of Atheism:

    Atheism, in the end, is a belief system in its own right, one in which there can be no claim that a thieving, philandering, serial murdering cannibal is any less commendable a member of the species than a selfless, hard-working philanthropist. In fact, from an evolutionist perspective, the former may well have the advantage. To a true atheist, there can be no more ultimate meaning to good and bad actions than to good or bad weather; no more import to right and wrong than to right and left. To be sure, rationales might be conceived for establishing societal norms, but social contracts are practical tools, not moral imperatives; they are, in the end, artificial. Only an acknowledgement of the Creator can impart true meaning to human life, placing it on a plane above that of mosquitoes.”
    aquatrek
    14th Mar 2013
    6:19pm
    What a lot of rubbish. Atheism is not a 'religion' - how idiotic a premise that is - Atheism is the exact opposite of a 'religion' no matter how a true illogical idiot attempts to argue it. 10,000 years of collective intellectual thought spoilt by those who are still mindfully trapped inside their own craniums BECAUSE they cant think for themselves. To 'believe' anything that was conceptualized in the ages when everyone knew nothing other than their own regional backyards is in itself preposterous. They all thought that the world was flat for a start. The afterlife was an imaginary journey for the rich. Superstition ruled the planet.
    Now nobody anywhere on this planet up to this point in time has a clue as to the reason that the universe, as homo sapien sapien percieve it, exists. To even propose otherwise is mindlessly just plain dumb apeish stupid. Some of the greatest thinkers, like Dawkins, on the planet say that there is no proof/evidence of a 'god' or a 'son of god' for that matter. I will stick with them thank you very much.
    geomac
    14th Mar 2013
    6:32pm
    good post aqua
    Becker
    14th Mar 2013
    6:38pm
    "Avi Shafran says"

    That's enough for me!

    I suppose this kind of discussion gives you leeway to press home your point Taskid. Repeatedly. So it is a fulfilling exercise for you. I'm too old ugly and cynical to waste my time in the back and forth of this particular subject; I see it as a waste of time.

    ....and it is you know. I think you are smart enough to realise that I (and others here I would guess), are not suddenly going to post in uppercase replete with exclamation marks with 'I have seen the light!!!!/hallelujah praise the lord !!!!!' stuff. (I decided not to use caps for anything there).

    An exercise in futility.
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    6:50pm
    aquatrek I thought that would cause the kid to spit the dummy. Tis the truth though if you used your brain to think it through.
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    6:57pm
    Becker Well I do not know who Avi whatsit is, but I found it and it is a very good description of the reality of atheism. Well yes many prefer to go on into the unknown, I understand. I was headed on that broad road myself. I have no motive other than to tell people there is more to life than the world deceives us to believe.

    I am not expecting any feedback really, I just urge people not to just write off what they do not understand.

    Bit like a person standing on the road knowing there is a huge pileup of vehicles ahead - being a signpost saying "take the detour" but many think they know best and hurtle past the fellow to end up part of the accident. I was headed to that. No more thank God. Yes the racing to hell on the highway is pretty futile.

    If you feel more comfortable following the crowd do not let me stop you. It takes courage to go against the mob and question what you do not understand. Thanks for the chat.
    Becker
    14th Mar 2013
    7:32pm
    "If you feel more comfortable following the crowd do not let me stop you. It takes courage to go against the mob and question what you do not understand........."

    ....................I know Taskid, I know.

    Unfortunately it takes only cowardice to run with the mob, and question nothing.
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    7:39pm
    Becker

    Well the mob is the unbelievers and they follow unquestioningly everything the mob believes. Blind leading the blind.
    Becker
    14th Mar 2013
    8:22pm
    ....depends on how you look at it doesn't it?

    I agree with your post. I accept that the 'un' is a spelling error.

    (I'm new here, can I ask if anyone has ever suggested to you that you actually do not encourage an affection for the one true god?
    You can't inject/tattoo/ or even verbally beat christianity into people. Just a gentle hint)
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    8:34pm
    Becker I just tell people the Truth. Christianity cannot be beaten into people - people flee from the truth - it reveals them for who they are. As the Bible says, "they prefer the darkness and flee from the light." People on here try to beat their unbelief and atheism into me with rudeness and insults peppered by scorn. I care enough by coming back to say - there is a better way - detour.

    If they took their blinkers off and looked around at the mess that has been made of the world and the planet by man without God perhaps the truth would sink in. We cannot do it alone. Without the Creator we only destroy. It is the fallen nature of mankind. The evidence is there for all to see if they would be take their heads out of the sand.

    Man is in rebellion against God. Many will never come to realise there is a better way with a loving Creator. Pride is their downfall and it is a leaky life boat on the dangerous sea of life. Clutching it to their bosom they rush to their end with no thought for what happens after they shut their eyes that one last time. Once a person realises where they were heading - they embrace life and truth and the great unconditional love of God our Creator. But you do not want to know so no worries. You cannot say when you stand before Him as you will, "no one told me."
    I wish you well.
    Aloysius
    15th Mar 2013
    8:54am
    In Florida , an atheist created a case against Easter and Passover Holy days. He hired an attorney to bring a discrimination case against Christians and Jews and observances of their holy days. The argument was that it was unfair that atheists had no such recognized days.

    The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the passionate presentation by the lawyer, the judge banged his gavel declaring, "Case dismissed!"

    The lawyer immediately stood and objecting to the ruling saying,
    "Your honor, How can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter and others. The Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah, yet my client and all other atheists have no such holidays..."
    The judge leaned forward in his chair saying, "But you do. Your client, counselor, is woefully ignorant."
    The lawyer said," Your Honor, we are unaware of any special observance or holiday for atheists."
    The judge said, "The calendar says April 1st is April Fool’s Day. Psalm 14:1 states, 'The fool says in his heart, there is no God.' Thus, it is the opinion of this court, that, if your client says there is no God, then he is a fool. Therefore, April 1st is his day.
    Court is adjourned..."

    You gotta love a Judge that knows his scripture!
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    8:59am
    a darn good one to lighten up the day with BIG Al hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
    Becker
    15th Mar 2013
    10:12am
    "Becker I just tell people the Truth."

    Don't be absurd Taskid. You tell people YOUR truth.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    12:55pm
    Becker

    Doesn't take long to join the Christian hating crowd in here does it?? Oh well.

    Becker there is only ONE truth - you cannot have two "truths" either one is correct and the other is lies or vice versa. That is basic logic. I know I speak the truth, up to you to work out what you believe. Your choice. There is only ever one Truth though. To try to say otherwise is to deceive yourself and others.

    Jesus either was who He said He was, Son of God, the Way, the Truth, the Life and the only way to God or He was a mad, bad or a liar. Up to you where you put Him, I know where I do. Cheers.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    2:56pm
    Aloysius Good one. The religion of atheism does not offer much does it. Just hopelessness, emptyness and nothingness, but it does tickle the egos of those who doggedly adhere to it. :0)
    Becker
    15th Mar 2013
    3:07pm
    "Doesn't take long to join the Christian hating crowd in here does it?? Oh well."

    This is vintage BAS. The perception that if I don't embrace YOUR truth, then I have to hate.

    That comment reflects more on you than me.

    (I note your need to have the last word-so go ahead. The YLC format of posting is the worst I've ever seen. I can't be bothered to fidget around with looking for the latest posts, and notification does NOT take you straight to them).
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    3:32pm
    Becker What has Basic Accounting System got to do with anything???

    Not "my" Truth Becker - it is THE Truth. Unless you call Jesus a bad, mad or a liar.

    It is not a matter of having the last word. It is polite to respond surely??
    Twila
    14th Mar 2013
    6:32pm
    aquatrek!

    Oh, golly gosh! The world isn't flat!!? Are you sure?
    aquatrek
    14th Mar 2013
    7:02pm
    darn - Twila - I just lay down on the floor and it looked quite flat for sure - then I stood up and yep the ground outside seemed pretty flat as well - then I looked across the road and darn it was still darn well darn flat !! then I accidentally looked at the horizon and hallelujah look and behold beyond in the far bright light - it seemed that the line that I perceived with my two little reflected light receptors [eyes x 2] that there was a hint of a curve !!!!!!!!!!!! Then I Googled curve and there it was - proof mathematically that a curved horizon promised an earth that was round - not flat. The analogy is one that ALIEN MEK just cant grasp through lack of intellect.
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    7:06pm
    aquatrek Isn't it past your bed-time? Children need their sleepybyes.
    aquatrek
    14th Mar 2013
    7:20pm
    @the fake horse head: nope - uni research assignments until about 23:00 - a cupla hrs sleepy time - probably up about 3 am - another cupla hrs work - shuteye until the daily chores need doing. I just cant imagine what you would be doing at all - apart from .........................
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    7:26pm
    They let you loose on uni stuff??? My gosh no wonder things are the mess they are. Oh I have many worthwhile things to do - I gave up playing at uni in my growing up days.
    aquatrek
    14th Mar 2013
    7:35pm
    sad - I guess that ya just ran out of intellect - besides I am not 'playing' at uni at all I assure you!
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    8:06pm
    Well I hope you are doing something worthwhile and being more intelligent than you appear in your posts on here aquatrek.
    aquatrek
    14th Mar 2013
    8:09pm
    as always your subjective personally flawed opinion ALIEN MEK (:-0))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    8:20pm
    Aquatrek
    Rather be flawed in opion than floored as you will be when you realise that your atheism is just a big con, a big fairy tale. Oh well. Some are slow learners I guess. You will have eat a real big bowl of humble pie.
    aquatrek
    14th Mar 2013
    8:37pm
    aaaaaaaahhhhhhh the 'religious' suppressed personal threat delivered by those who think that they have 'power' to instill fear of the unknown = death ha I laugh in the face of death because ALL living things die and become stardust yet again
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    9:07pm
    Nothing suppressed about it aquatrek. It is a reality, no power of mine. You will not have the last laugh I assure you. Not all "things" have a soul and spirit. But then I forget, your rellies crawled out of the swamps didn't they?? You still cling to that unproven theory.
    aquatrek
    14th Mar 2013
    9:44pm
    more veiled 'threats' from the omnipotent Goddess. As for the rellies; we and that means you too sister come from the very same rootstock - biologically speaking because I swear that I do not know your mother or father haha unless there is a spaceship that will come to pick you up or are you a lost 'alien soul' hahahaha and they also want rid of you and have deliberately left you here on the 3rd rock from this sun hehehe
    Taskid
    14th Mar 2013
    9:54pm
    aquatrek Definitely time for your cocoa and bed. You are making even less sense than normal. I think you switched your brain off and all that is coming through is spam. G'nite
    Twila
    14th Mar 2013
    7:14pm
    aquatrek,

    Ooooh, you are clever.
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    7:20am
    On February 4th, 2013, Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, addressed the Duma (Russian Parliament) and gave a speech about the tensions with minorities in Russia:
    "In Russia live Russians. Any minority, from anywhere, if it wants to live in Russia, to work and eat in Russia, should speak Russian, and should respect the Russian laws. If they prefer Sharia Law, then we advise them to go to those places where that's the state law. Russia does not need minorities. Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'. We better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation. The Russian customs and traditions are not compatible with the lack of culture or the primitive ways of most minorities. When this honorable legislative body thinks of creating new laws, it should have in mind the national interest first, observing that the minorities are not Russians.

    Spot on Putin olde chap. The Gulags will be very useful indeed. Is that what we should relabel our offshore holding enclaves ? Gulag - a system of prisons, especially for political detainees - yep seems to be appropriate. Lets call them 'stockades'.
    Aloysius
    15th Mar 2013
    9:00am
    Theodore Roosevelt said in 1919:
    'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag.... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.'

    Same shpuld apply in Australia.
    aquatrek
    15th Mar 2013
    9:11am
    there is another more scathing anti-Islamic comment by Winston Churchill as well - cant be bothered getting it onto here at the moment - If such prominent worldly aware thinkers make such commentary then why do we in Oz have to put up with what has been pointed out to be the inevitable outcome - Islamic dominance by some means of stealth - halal and burkas are now commonplace within just a few decades and these unlawful asylum seekers are just accelerating the affect upon our society - once the envy of the western world but soon to be out of control it would seem. The gate has been left open [ALP] and the horse has bolted [there I go again with the horses - I dont even like the animals much]
    Aloysius
    15th Mar 2013
    9:55am
    "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

    Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step, and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it (Islam) has vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.” - Winston Churchill
    Becker
    16th Mar 2013
    3:03pm
    Winnie was considered a 'great man'. If you like. But he was prone to changing his mind; he made some splendid speeches though, stirring us on to victory!

    The great 'men' were of course the military personnel-both genders, who did the actual work, so very many of whom lost their lives.

    Sorry; waffled a bit. All I needed to say was: who cares?
    (And let's be honest here; it is a discussion forum staple to go looking for stuff that supports our own point of view).

    I'm extremely disappointed that so many of you are going to convert to Islam. Where is your backbone?
    That is the only way 'Islam will take over Australia'.

    ...................or are we talking invasion and mass slaughter on a scale never seen in human history?
    Taskid
    16th Mar 2013
    4:05pm
    Becker When good men ignore the truth they will fall into every trap evil despot before them. The more seductive it looks the more they flock to it. What do you offer apart from spell checks???
    Becker
    16th Mar 2013
    10:30pm
    Righty ho Taskid ! I'm struggling a bit with 'fall into every trap evil despot' at the moment. Do you mean one trips and falls and gets caught up in...do you mean fall into trap that are there for evil despots...do you mean there are evil despots like battalions

    Ach hell what does it matter

    Between this and my last post I have had a new desktop; the third in 5 weeks ('tis a cautionary tale, I might write about it elsewhere. You're right about evil despots come to think of it, but Consumer Affairs did much better than a bible).

    I am yet to find forward delete, or as you can see, the question mark thingybob.
    Taskid
    16th Mar 2013
    11:27pm
    As I said below, the edit facility has gone, so when an error occurs, unless one takes the time to read it back before it is sent the error remains.

    There is evil, good meaning but ignorant people follow it often unknowingly and yes fall into a trap. "As Jesus said, "the blind follow the blind and both fall in a ditch"
    Becker
    15th Mar 2013
    10:08am
    The saddest thing for me is in the fact that Australia is a migrant settled country. Early White 'settlers' had no choice granted.

    However, I am compelled to wonder how Indigenous Australians feel about White settlers coming to their land. And for many the price was their lives.
    We rationalise that with ease. We had every right to settle in Australia didn't we? Because we did it 'properly'?

    So? it has everything to do with the mythical 'queue' doesn't it? There cannot be any other reason to deny others the right to want a better life, can there?
    Australia has so many different cultures and creeds, so what is the problem?

    Not queuing...and Islam.

    BOTH Governments have calculatingly nurtured this xenophobic fear. Howard made an art form of it. Every justification in the xenophobic has been used here: the dress/the oppressive culture/'converting Australia to Islam' threat (that's my absolute favourite!)/not fighting for their own country...while we assist our masters in bringing them 'freedom'/they are terrorists/'are on boats in designers suits with gold chains'. (I kid you not. That little gem was used on one site by supposedly intelligent people). Everything and anything to demonise these poor sods and keep them 'in their place', literally and metaphorically.

    "I'll have what she's having" is fine if you dutifully queue up in a White country/wear 'decent' clothing/and follow a 'proper' belief system/-or non at all: we are after all a tolerant lot aren't we?


    No. We are a self-centred mob mentality society who will turn on anyone who dares to invade OUR space.
    toot2000
    15th Mar 2013
    1:00pm
    We have every right to criticize those who come here. If you lived in Sydney you would know about the Muslim gangs and criminals who think they own the streets. “Brothers 4 Life” was a gang formed by Bassam Hamzy who was jailed for life in 2002 for murder and conspiring to kill a witness. A T-shirt with their insignia, two crossed AK47 machine guns with the words “Brothers 4 Life” on the back, was worn by the young punks who belted the police at the protest in Sydney last year. A Bankstown restaurant owner told police that 2 members of the gang visited him and asked for $50,000 for “protection.” If you think that these scum haven’t ruined a once peaceful city, you are completely out of touch with reality.
    Becker
    15th Mar 2013
    2:59pm
    You have 'every right' indeed!

    What you are failing to see in your zeal to damn an entire people (have you cleared up the 'letterbox' thing btw?), is that any society anywhere, has vile nasty people.

    There is exploitation/violence/murder.....and believe or not protection rackets by Whites/Blacks/Brindle et al.

    Out of touch with reality?? Me? Take another look before you engage.

    As I said, in your zeal to condemn you focus on the nastiness of a small part of one group in order to vilify all of them.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    3:34pm
    Becker Read the Koran - they are villified by the system to which they are bound.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    3:02pm
    Becker - There is a big difference between xenophobia and being realistic. There is only ever one truth remember. Islam intends to bend the West to what it promotes, read the Koran if you do not believe the sensible posters on here who sound the warning. It is the system which is the danger.
    Becker
    15th Mar 2013
    3:19pm
    I prefer new posts, at least they appear at the bottom of the damn thread!

    Yes there's a difference. Unfortunately I'm not the one confused by that, so your 'sensible poster' comment is nonsense.

    You know Taskid, you can show tremendous compassion and disagree with others who show less. Yet as soon as a belief system/religion comes into it, you line up with those same people.

    As I said, (and I DID say it), you are a lousy example of Christianity. You seem quite comfortable selling out on your ethics in order to advance your beliefs.

    Get your last word in. The double standard is unpalatable. At least the dislikers/haters-call them what you will, are consistent.
    geomac
    15th Mar 2013
    3:30pm
    Becker
    The emails alerts are a shambles . You think something new is posted and are taken to something you have already read or its hard to find if a new one is there . On one occasion I disabled mail alert on a thread and still kept getting them . I disabled alert on every page of the thread and still got them , eventually it stopped , maybe the thread had no more posts . Getting very wary of checking email alert as just scrolling might be more effective .
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    3:46pm
    Becker Classic BE from you.
    I show compassion on individuals, I do not have compassion on deceptive systems which aim to force a way of life on others. Force being the operative word.

    You opinion of my Christian walk counts for nothing seeing as you cannot even recognise Truth, bit like old Ponitius Pilate saying, as he washed his hands, "what is truth" - did not recognise Truth standing before him. You have no idea of what constitutes a Christian so your assessment of me contains no truth at all.

    You condemn what you are unable or unwilling to investigate. I do not have a double standard. My standard always is Jesus. He is Truth. Something you do not yet understand.
    Becker
    15th Mar 2013
    4:53pm
    Geomac: I've disabled notifications, they are a pointless exercise. It is actually a nice little informative site, but as I said, (and I did say it if you have a spare 20 minutes to look for it!), this is the lousiest format I've ever seen.

    Tsk!Tsk!Task!

    For Christs Sake, spell the pilots name correctly.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    4:58pm
    Becker What are you, a retired, frustrated English teacher??? :0) I did not even notice. I type so quickly often the words fly out and I do not always bother to read them back. I did not pick that up anyway, well spotted.

    You avoid the content though by zoning in on the minutiae. You get it right on spelling, wanna try getting it right on truth???? :0)
    geomac
    15th Mar 2013
    7:32pm
    You do pilates taskid ? Wow , must be fit then lol .
    geomac
    15th Mar 2013
    3:35pm
    ?

    15th Mar 2013
    4:20pm
    Has anyone watched this video - is all about demographics.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysBJ5G4m67s

    Bringing in unchecked immigration of refugees under the UN Treaty which is why we have to give them asylum even though most arriving by boat or overstaying are economic not genuine refugees. Majority of the boat arrivals are Muslim these days and young men hoping to bring the balance of the very large extended family one day and although this gov says no family re-union it can change as they changed all the TPV's of the last but one gov into permanent residence so those family reunions can go ahead.
    Even the UNHCR rep here has stated this re economic migrants as well as Indonesians who added that Australia was 'soft'

    Watch it and others - read up on Europe's problems because we are following them down the same path. Not quite too late for us yet.
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    4:44pm
    Big Val I had seen that video before. If people are in any doubt about an Islamic takeover I suggest they watch that and learn from it.

    There is another excellent video, I have put the site in here before, do not have it to hand just now, but it is called "Islam - What the West needs to know." It is a full length doco and very revealing.

    Thanks.

    15th Mar 2013
    4:26pm
    Maybe read John Stone's writings on the subject. He was the ex-Treasury official who advised John Howard to give in our 12 months notice to the UN to stop the invasion of Islam and said to select who comes instead.

    http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3713&page=0

    BTW Asylum seekers rights and all these 'rights' come from the left wing UN and are intended to shift the sovereignty of Australia to them in the end as are those in Agenda 21 do you all good to study what is going on - ask a politician about Agenda 21 and they flee but it is being implemented here by governments and councils.

    Google or better style use this search engine which is as good but does not spy on your searches.

    https://ixquick.com/
    Taskid
    15th Mar 2013
    4:48pm
    BigVal Could not get a response from the link you put up for John Stone.
    geomac
    16th Mar 2013
    12:55am
    Leviticus 24:16
    King James Version (KJV)
    16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

    <<
    <
    =
    =
    >
    >>

    Exodus 35:2
    King James Version (KJV)
    2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

    <<
    <
    =
    =
    >
    >>
    Aloysius
    16th Mar 2013
    8:38am
    Atheism is always not for prophet.
    Taskid
    16th Mar 2013
    9:40am
    geomac Are you going to convert to Judaism, reading and putting up the Jewish Law????
    geomac
    16th Mar 2013
    1:37pm
    Its in the bible Taskid so any christian faith would suffice . No , I have no intention of joining a religion or sect of any description .
    Taskid
    16th Mar 2013
    2:00pm
    geomac Well yes Leviticus is from the Bible, it is part of the Law given to the Jews. I you stopped cherry-picking the Bible you would find that because man can never gain or attain the perfection of God as shown by the example of the Jews and the people of their day.

    They kept turning to idolatory, unnatural fleshly lusts, violence, gree and turned from God even though they saw first hand His goodness.

    Jesus came to fulfil the law and set man free from it. You still live under the curse of the Law of God, because you rebel and will not accept what He says and has done, just like the Jews back then. If you read on you would see their fate.

    However, you choose to live under the Law and thus on Judgement Day (no it matters no one iota what you "believe" it will happen) you will be held to account for every sin you have ever committed. Not much to look forward to, but as with the Jews of Jesus day. they chose to rebel and turn back to their religion (as you turn to your religion of atheism) and the cucifyed Jesus.

    As we know, (well you choose not to) death could not hold Jesus and He rose to appear to His disciples and the women who followed Him and then ascended into heaven. A mystery for the unregenerate mind I know, having been there, but understandble to those who turned from rebellion to accept Jesus gift of forgiveness, love, peace, joy, righteousness with God and the total assurance of eternal life with God. If you are going to quote bits of the Bible which you do not understand, I suggest you make the acquaintence of the Author and then you will understand what Christians know to be true. God said, "I put before you life (in Jesus) or death (the Law) choose life. I have taken God's recommendation. You choose not to. Your God-given choice.
    geomac
    16th Mar 2013
    3:47pm
    I put those up Taskid as a response to other gibberish , verse , text that is used to demonise others . I have no truck with any of them or ones who choose , cherry pick or arrogantly believe their own particular creed or belief is the one true belief. Take you for example in assigning me a religion when I have none . Why ? Because you believe you are right and people such as me or Catholics , Jews etc are also wrong . We are all marching out of step bar you . Those other creeds would consider me out of step as well as you . So I,m onside and offside depending on which of the true is true or just believed . Your happy with your thing Taskid , no problem . However you make no valid point or argument using your " belief " just gives you a chance to state your belief which you do , often .
    Taskid
    16th Mar 2013
    4:09pm
    goemac You have a religion, you may not call it that, but it is your belief system, your rule for life - your religion.

    I do not have religiion I have a relationship with Jesus. That is from God, not man-made. Your atheistic religion is a man-made doctrine and you cling to it in a very devout way. You preach your athiesm with impunity having no regard for others who know a better way, the truth.
    Aloysius
    16th Mar 2013
    5:00pm
    If the Christians are mistaken, they will have done little harm. If the Christians are correct in their faith, they will be rewarded. The outlook for the atheists is not so rosy if they are mistaken.
    geomac
    16th Mar 2013
    9:24pm
    Well Al we will never get the answer on a thread . Only christians will get the " reward " ? Well that begs the question which christians and how do we define the various sects and branches . Then we have non christians who have never read the bible . I cannot conceive of some benevolent supreme being punishing people who have never known about him/her it /being . Then we have all the other creeds that are not christ based but also have the reward factor and once again I would suggest that they would get the reward but others don,t ? Is it the mormons , anyway some mob who believe 140,000 will get to heaven or the reward . Thats seems an extremely small number and what about all the people who died previous to that religion being formed ? It doesn,t appear to be a very intelligent or fair reward system does it ? All based on something that cannot be proven or disproven .
    Taskid
    16th Mar 2013
    9:30pm
    geomac You really make a lot of comment about that which you show by your post, you know so pitifully little.
    geomac
    16th Mar 2013
    10:27pm
    Fortunate for you Taskid you have all the answers . Unfortunately you think the other 6 billion odd people don,t . Must be a comfort and a distress at the same time .
    Becker
    16th Mar 2013
    10:36pm
    On the other hand Taskid, you simply make a lot of comment full stop

    (Found forward delete, why in the hell isn't the question mark symbol in its normal place )
    Aloysius
    16th Mar 2013
    10:37pm
    We all make our own way. I agree with Taskid's view (and probably your view) that manmade churches have a lot to answer for. Over the course of history, churches were the governing bodies and their proper course was diverted. True Christianity doesn't require membership of any denomination but acceptance of Jesus as Saviour.
    Taskid
    16th Mar 2013
    11:14pm
    geomac It is not me who has all the answers. It is the one I know and follow, Jesus. By the way, I met Him and I had never read the Bible. Put your little atheist theories around that fact. I met the Author and then I read His Book.

    Becker At least I know what I am making comment about. Not like atheists who just make up there comment and that without substance.

    Aloysius You are right - denominations (as opposed to the only Church, the Body of true believers), are too often contaminated with man-made religion. That happens because human pride wants to add to what Jesus has done. He said on hte Cross, "It is finished" and that is the Truth.

    All it takes is the humility to come to Jesus, repent of sin, accept His free gift of life. That is the only way to become a true Christian. No denomination can make you one, no person can make you one, you cannot be born one, reading the Bible on its own will not make you one, nothing other than what God decreed can make a person a Christian. It is an act of free will.
    Thanks Aloysius.
    Taskid
    16th Mar 2013
    11:20pm
    Becker Before you rush in with your spell-check, yes I put "there" when I should have put "their" in my reply to you. Also mixed up the letters also in my reply to Aloysius I put "hte" instead of "the." The edit facility seems to have disappeared from YLC for some reason. Oh well, some things are more important than one's spelling.
    Becker
    17th Mar 2013
    4:38pm
    Aloysius: you know as well as I do that Taskid's form of Christian terrorism does nothing to promote Christianity as a force for decency and tolerance.
    I cannot take such a bullying approach seriously, and if all Christian's behaved this way, I suggest true believers would be considerably reduced.

    Taskid: YOU MET HIM ????? (!) Did he have blue eyes? Does he have blonde hair? A white robe? Did he tell you why he had put starvation/abuse/genocide/and all other Earthly matters aside so that he could have a chat with you?
    Has he called in on a regular basis? Does he approve of your approach?

    I have to admit, as name dropping goes, you've blitzed the field. I'm impressed.

    Honest.
    Taskid
    17th Mar 2013
    6:44pm
    Becker What you mean Becker is I do not fit your idea of "what a Christian should be" - you want the ones who hide their light under a bushel, the very opposite of what Jesus taught. Out of what you don't know about being a true Christian you have made up a little mythical figure of "what Christians should be."

    You would know, if you had any idea of what a true Christian is that there is no such thing as "Christian terrorism" - another figment of your imagination. I am not a bully, it is cheap shot from the atheist bullies who have tried to shout me down ever since I came onto YLC. It is the fruit of ignorance and never touches me.

    You mock the fact I have met Jesus, again out of your ignorance. If you ask any born-again Christian they will tell you they have met Jesus, how can one have a Relationship with Jesus (be a true Christian) if one has never met Him????? You can't because you can only believe what you see, that is the narrow carnal mind. I had that afflication once too so I know what it is like.

    I have met you, but I don't know your name, let alone what colour your eyes are, or what you are wearing, but I know you exist in some form. You see you talk nonsense. Best not to make comments about Christianity and Christians if you are continually going to make a fool of yourself before God and those who know Him. You will be a hero to those who don't - they love to revel in their ignorance.

    Once one knows Jesus He never leaves, "I will never leave you nor forsake you," He says. You choose to mock Him not to meet Him. Your choice, a poor one you will discover, but your God-given choice. You choose never to know His unconditional Love, His Power, His healing, His wisdom (He says, "the fool says in his heart, there is no God."), His peace and His eternal life. You choose to walk in darkness in this life and the next. Again a poor choice, but yours to make for sure.

    Please stay off the subject if all you can do is show how silly you are. I am embarrassed for you.
    Becker
    18th Mar 2013
    1:29am
    Within forum rules I will say what I damn well please.

    However, three things have influenced my decision to give this away, for the time being at least.

    -I loathe this format. It's impossible to have a decent discussion, because responses are all the way up the thread.
    All good luck to most of you who just get on with it.

    -Now heading for 1am and I'm still battling the vagaries of this (latest) laptop. 15 hours now. At least I try!

    - And you Taskid. You are exactly what I said you are. You utterly dominate. The bombastic and incessant preaching swamps this thread; I have no idea if this goes on elsewhere on the forum, but you use your version of Christianity like a weapon. You are oblivious to how ugly it is.
    This is not YLC; it's TLC., and it is stultifying.

    OK. Now give yet another sniping response, and then try to let a discussion occur without turning it to you and your so-called Christian judgment.
    Taskid
    18th Mar 2013
    8:17am
    Becker You are so entrenched in assuming you know it all really there is no point having a discussion with you. When someone stands up to you, like so many atheist bullies, you spit the dummy, throw insults and run away. Your opinion of me matters not one iota to me. I wish you well always.
    Taskid
    16th Mar 2013
    6:28pm
    Aloysius Oh so true.
    Aloysius
    17th Mar 2013
    8:49am
    May the blessing of God's soft rain be on you,
    Falling gently on your head, refreshing your soul
    With the sweetness of little flowers newly blooming.
    May the strength of the winds of Heaven bless you,
    Carrying the rain to wash your spirit clean
    Sparkling after in the sunlight.
    May the blessing of God's earth be on you,
    And as you walk the roads,
    May you always have a kind word for those you meet.

    Happy St Patrick's Day. Suggest you have a Guinness.
    Taskid
    17th Mar 2013
    8:52am
    Oh begorrah, with a shillelagh under me arm an' all n' all. :0)
    Taskid
    17th Mar 2013
    8:53am
    Oh dear Aloysius I just realised, Clay will be reporting you for being "off topic." :0)
    geomac
    17th Mar 2013
    2:19pm
    Al A teetotaler these days but thanks for the good cheer and thoughts . As a child I marched in school uniform in Melb. on St Pats day .
    widdy
    19th Mar 2013
    7:24pm
    With the way they were treated under the Howard government, locked up and traumatised for years and treated no better than caged animals, I would be more worried about their treatment after the coming election.
    Taskid
    19th Mar 2013
    7:42pm
    Widdy That previous treatment was nothing to be proud of that is for sure. I just hope we will not see more of the same harshness.
    Aloysius
    21st Mar 2013
    9:15am
    Most countries will put you in prison if you try to enter without a visa. Most of those prisons are less humane that anything the supposed refugees receive when arriving here - the country, with the best welfare system, furthest from their homeland.
    from the nanny state
    20th Mar 2013
    7:22am
    People who land on our shores with no identification and potentially bringing disease to our country have "no rights".... apply in the proper manner as other's do who are honest and then you may have the "right" to be allowed into our country.


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