11th Jul 2017

Australians are getting poorer

australian currency
Drew Patchell

For just the fourth time in 30 years, the household gross disposable income (HGDI) in Australia has declined compared with the previous year. The HGDI is the amount of cash individuals and families receive from all income sources including investments – after taxes and the Medicare levy are paid.

The first year the HGDI declined was 2002 when the world was hit by the early 2000s global recession, while the second year was 2009, when the world was in the depths of the global financial crisis. After both events, the HGDI returned to a strong positive growth in the following quarters.

The other two declines in household gross disposable income came in 2015 and 2017 during periods of strong global recovery with record corporate profits and robust trade numbers. The HGDI has always been a strong measure of financial wellbeing even throughout times of crisis such as droughts, jobless rises and falls, recessions and housing booms and busts, so the sudden decline in times of prosperity are alarming.

Using ABS data, the amount of annual disposable income is now $29,640 per household – down from $31,960 just six months ago and $31,650 in 2013.



Interpreting these declines, The New Daily believes that “wages have been depressed in the past three years, the tax burden has shifted from corporations and high-income professionals to wage and salary earners, and both unemployment and underemployment remain entrenched”.

A decline in HGDI not only effects individual livelihoods, but also the organisations and industries Australia-wide that depend on this disposable income – from tourism and entertainment to restaurants and retail.

What do you think? Should we be alarmed with the sudden decline in HGDI? What effect will less disposable income have on industries and jobs in Australia? Has the current Government stacking the deck in the favour of big business essentially caused this decline?

Read more at smh.com.au

Related articles:
Household debt at an all-time high
Is debt ruining your retirement?
Worst retirement mistake to make





COMMENTS

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Rainey
11th Jul 2017
9:04am
Guess that's further proof that OG has it wrong. It is NOT true to say Australians have never had it so good.

Household incomes are falling. The tax burden has shifted. The result is that tourism, entertainment and retail businesses, in particular, will suffer - resulting in lower overall tax take, less jobs, lower profits, reduced growth and higher deficits.

The USA has just been downgraded to a ''second world'' economy because of precisely the policies this government is pursuing - lowering welfare, reducing social services, slashing penalty rates, increasing medical and educational costs. It is now cheaper to hire a minimum wage worker in the US (relative to adjusted average income) than it was to own a slave before the Civil War.

This is where Australia is headed if we don't rebel against the unfair policies of a government hell bent on cutting welfare and wages and giving tax cuts to the rich.

It's no longer an issue of party politics. We need to unite to demand overall policy and directional changes - regardless of which party is in power. We are no longer ''the lucky country'', and we need to stop the deterioration before Australia also becomes ''second world''.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
10:19am
Ha ha Rainey and you rely on the ABS. How many people actually tell them the truth? I for one certainly don't as it is simply none of their business.

The amount of spending is certainly up so either these statistics are garbage or people are getting money from other unreported sources.
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
11:13am
OG, the ABS doesn't need to rely on dishonest information provided by you or anyone like you. It's sources are far more reliable than that. Happily, they don't rely on a self-confessed LIAR.
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
11:15am
Oh, and it IS their business to determine the state of the economy accurately so that government policy can respond correctly. Decent, responsible people acknowledge that factual information is essential for good government, and co-operate with the organizations charged with gathering data. But then, decent, responsible people don't LIE.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
11:45am
I recall a cartoon from back in the 1970's. A suited pollie says', "You never had it so good!" Bib and braced workers replies, "We never had it!".
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
11:45am
Rainey I am for ever doing surveys for them so they do rely on information I give them.
Rae
11th Jul 2017
11:49am
OG I agree with you. And judging by the numbers of retirees in cafes etc people are doing very well indeed to have all that extra disposable income.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
11:53am
From what I am seeing people have never had it so good with crowds everywhere, cruise ships coming at all time highs, an endless stream of caravans heading north for the winter, queues at checkouts etc. That's lots of spending.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
12:08pm
Good factual post Rainey. Methinks Geezer is sitting on a fair bit of capital and refuses to see the facts from the point of view of 95% of the population.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
12:18pm
Yes I see nothing more boring than spending hours in cafes drinking coffee.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
12:35pm
Buy a good expresso machine. One of the best investments on the planet.
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
1:26pm
Goodness, OG. Do you have no self-respect at all? First you tell us you lie to the ABS, then you tell us you are always doing surveys for them. So in other words you are deliberately trying to ensure the government gets WRONG information on which to base policy. No wonder the policies are so damaging. But then, we've seen your selfish and self-serving suggestions on how to change the nation to feed your greed and destroy the lifestyles of the less fortunate, haven't we? We all know what you are.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
1:27pm
I don't drink coffee so an expresso machine is a bad investment for me.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
1:30pm
So Rainey you would gladly give away enough information for some one to take your identity and have a ball spending all your money. That's what you would have to give away in those surveys if you told the truth. My identity is worth much more than at self respect as without it I have no self respect.
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
1:35pm
What rot, OG. Nobody asks you to give away your identity and let others steal your money. But you condone the government stealing money from people who worked and saved for a lifetime to try to achieve comfort in old age. How is direct theft okay but asking for simple information isn't?
HKW
11th Jul 2017
1:52pm
Both parties are simply mafias and the rich elite lapdogs, puppets being pulled by strings and unscrupulous, CORRUPTED creatures, who no longer serve Australians, but THEMSELVES !
People need to WAKE UP and loudly remind them who they are: they are Australian SERVANTS !! We are paying their salaries !
At the next elections cross them all out !
We need to start with people from the crowds, from local councils, people we personally know and can trust.
Start ANEW!
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
2:07pm
Interest point, HKW - what we are seeing here is the seeds of the formation of the original Mafia in Sicily - which started out centuries ago as a self-protection society of the poorer people. Some vestiges of that remain to this day in the 'favours' handed out like a lord by the godfather etc...

Of course, that original Mafia had its beginning in seeking to opose the impact of the already existing 'mafia' groups of the rich etc, who literally held the power of life and death over the peasants.

You see, again, vestiges of that in the withholding of medical care and treatment to those without 'private' cover, and in keeping the many at the lowest sustainable level of income as a matter of policy and social control.
Ella
11th Jul 2017
2:27pm
Just a heads up. People lining up at supermarkets , coffee shops, shopping malls etc does not mean they're cashed up and financially comfortable. Personal credit debt is at an all time high in Australia and a lot of average workers use credit as part of their budget. They are not remotely in a good financial position owing lots of money to credit cards and banks .
MICK
11th Jul 2017
2:28pm
HKW: politicians are well looked after by their political masters. If they were not they would act differently.
I agree with your statement about WHO we should be electing. That is one reason I keep suggesting that Independents and Minor Parties should be pushed in ahead of the puppets we routinely have. Unfortunately people are too stupid and too lazy to read widely and work it out for themselves. The media is a propaganda machine controlled and/or owned by the rich so what they pump out is expected. Sadly the mentally challenged believe most of what they read. That is why mums and dads pile into the share markets just before they are about to crash. Easy pickings! And the sheep are easily controlled.
Oldman Roo
11th Jul 2017
3:55pm
OG , AS usual your reasoning is flawed by wishful thinking and making up stories that do not pass a scrutiny .
Firstly , what makes you think these people in the cafes are all mainly low income people .
Secondly, Just enough for a cup of coffee is probably the only pleasure the poor have left . Just go looking where your class wines and dines , which is where the big money changes hands .
If Government and you could have it all their way , most of us would be living in a dungeon and they would brag about the luxury life we enjoy .
Go back to your LNP scriptwriter and tell him there is a reason why Labor is going to win the next election .
Tom Tank
11th Jul 2017
4:13pm
Old Geezer you are living in your own selfish little world.
Spending is up because of the availability of credit via credit cards.
The income tax take is down because the wage/salary levels are static.
It is no accident that this is all happening at a time when Union membership is at a low level.
We are a community bound together and will rise or fall together, apart from the ones who seem to be impervious to the forces at work in our economy and these are the protected ones at the top end of town.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
7:09pm
Nay OG is not selfish at all. I have noticed that is now some time since I have had to help some one at a supermarket pay for their groceries whereas a few years ago it happened quite a bit.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
7:23pm
There's now a thing out about coffee prolonging your life... if that is so I'll easily make it to 150 with a tanned stomach lining.... and a caffeine count of 560+ per litre...
Rainey
13th Jul 2017
3:06pm
We should be wary of careless judgements. A lot of those we see in caravans have sold their homes to buy vans because they were struggling with the cost of home ownership or couldn't manage the mortgage payments. Others opted for vans rather than pay rent. We travel in a camper and it's cheaper to live on the road than at home because we free camp and our slideon is so light that our fuel consumption is the same as for a family car.

As for coffee shops and bars - yes, there are many people frequenting these places but there are many on good incomes. The fact that Australians are getting poorer overall doesn't mean everyone suddenly is broke. It simply means that we are all becoming less affluent and the poor are really struggling. Those we see spending are probably still quite comfortable, but we should be concerned about the general trend.
Old Geezer
14th Jul 2017
5:55pm
Rainey the vast majority of people in caravans are retired and have the means to travel north and spent the winter in a warmer climate. Not only do they have the cost of travel but the bills at home still need to be paid. Only a small number live on the road full time.

Took myself in Bryon Bay today and it was a mad house with crowds everywhere. That is not a sign that the economy is failing at all.
Rainey
15th Jul 2017
1:02pm
WRONG, OG. I travel. I talk to the travellers. There are a number of self-supporting retirees who are well off, and there are vast numbers of strugglers who have no permanent home. Then there are those who, like me, saved specifically to enjoy a few years of travel that I could never indulge in while working full time. I work casual to fund that luxury, as well as using up some of the funds I saved specifically for that purpose. The economy is failing. Shops are closing. Retailers are struggling. Tourism is down. Incomes are falling. Arrogant, self-serving well-to-do pigs continue to lie because it is in their interests to pretend, but the facts cannot be refuted and the intelligent among us recognize the reality and seek ways to improve the situation rather than lying about all being well merely because they personally aren't hurting.
Old Geezer
15th Jul 2017
3:03pm
Rainey obviously you must travel in the off season and camp in some terrible spots to find all those desperate people. The majority of the ones I come across are well heeled OAPs and self funded retirees. Most stay in caravan parks when they get to their destination and pay over $1000 a month just to park their van. Everywhere up north is packed at the moment. Not sure where tourism is down but it wasn't where ever I went in the five weeks I was away.

I hate going to the shops where I live because they are always packed and it takes ages just to buy groceries. If the economy was bad then that would not be happening at all. If retailers are struggling then they will never make ago of it with that sort of traffic going through their shops.

When I can get a place to park my car and the shop assistants are waiting to serve me then I will believe you. That aint happening any where I have been in the last few months at all.
Rainey
17th Jul 2017
2:08am
So you've now explained your warped view of the world, OG! You mix with the rich. Being wealthy, you choose to go to places where there is affluence. (Of course the arrogant well-to-do don't wish to be confronted with evidence of what their greed and selfishness is doing to the masses. Nero fiddled while Rome burned, and our rich just want to turn a blind eye and pretend hardship is the fault of the suffering. It's a far more comfortable way to think - though despicable in the extreme!)

Nobody said the whole of Australia is poor. We have a huge and increasing divide between the ''haves'' and the ''have nots''. Overall, the nation is getting poorer, and the number of ''have nots'' really struggling is increasing. But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of ''haves'' spending freely. (Politicians, for example, continue to get richer!) Some of the afflient are getting poorer too, but have enough that it's not worrying them yet - or are too dumb to realize that it won't last forever! (We see a lot of IDIOTS ranting that retirees should spend their capital, totally oblivious to the fact that many need to make it last for 30+ years of rising costs!)

Anyone who has done any caravanning with their ears open has recognized that vast numbers of caravanners have to wait for their next pension check to arrive before they can move on. The roads are always busy on pension day and the day after! These are folk who can't afford a permanent home and who struggle to cover the costs of basic essentials, but find they can scrounge more effectively living a nomad existence.

Go to the free camps and talk to the people who can't afford caravan parks. Of course if you frequent affluent suburbs you will find people spending happily. That says NOTHING about the overall economy. All it says is that you are selfish, arrogant, and self-interested, OG - a fact that you have made abundantly clear with the CRAP you continue to post.
Old Geezer
17th Jul 2017
11:31am
Most people in free camps are there because they have RVs like mine that are self contained and can go for days without power or water.

Honesty boxes are a real eye opener as those in expensive RVs need seem to want to contribute.

Sure there are a few on the road full time but most go north to escape the southern winter at this time of year. Go any other time of year and free camps are mostly deserted. Free camps are also full this time of year because there is simply not enough paid sites to cater for all the people wanting them. The roads are busy any day this time of year with endless stream of caravans heading north.
Rainey
18th Jul 2017
8:59am
Crap, OG. I free camp all the time - year round - and I've never seen expensive, lavish or new RVs in free camps but they are busy all year round with older and less expensive campers. Many vans are self-contained of course, but many are not. Lots of free camps have toilets. I've honestly never seen anyone contribute to an ''honesty box'', nor do most free camps have them except in heavy tourist areas. I don't like caravan parks but I've never encountered a full one, not even in Broome where we were told they were booked out months ahead but we walked into a park and got a great site in the first park we came to. I checked the signs as we drove around and despite peak season, didn't see a single park with a ''No Vacancy'' sign. The only place we found difficult to get a spot was in National Parks.

OG, there is no ''endless stream of caravans heading north''. That's a figment of your wild imagination. Though there are plenty who can't afford to own a house and are living in vans, and of course, they go north in winter to avoid heating expenses.
Crowcrag
11th Jul 2017
10:32am
If this is the case, then who wins? Business- pays less wages, employs more casual workers? Surely it means that with less money in circulation, business is down, they lose. GST is down- the govt. loses. What happens to the common wealth of the Commonwealth?
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
11:11am
Of course, Crowcrag. That's what I'm saying. Everyone loses. But the greedy are too selfish to care about the long or even the medium term. The rich just want to load up their coffers now and boast about their wealth. When the crunch comes, they can live on their ill-gotten accumulated gains while the rest of the world suffers.
Rae
11th Jul 2017
11:55am
But business isn't down at all the profit rise was nearly 30% last year alone. People are spending so they must have plenty of money. They certainly aren't saving it or going without from what I see.

Rainey yes the wealthy may very well be saving and investing while they can. That is how you build wealth after all isn't it.

I'm horrified at the wasteful spending I'm seeing because if times get tough these people will have nothing to fall back on. They are spending savings quite willingly.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
12:13pm
Spot on Crowcrag. Screwing workers is a short term fix at best. Wait and see what happens to the top when robotics comes in. With half of the country on welfare there will be no money to spend other than on food, clothing and housing. It's a bit like the 8 man rowing team which is doing poorly. After replacing one rower after another with performance coaches and the like you end up with one rower....who gets the blame for a poor performance. Funny maybe but we are already heading down this track at present.
FYI the large increases in wealth in Australia over the past 5 years have been almost entirely kept by business. Guess whose salaries have been going up. And now the same bastards want tax cuts.
Rosret
11th Jul 2017
1:04pm
You can attribute so much of this to the housing boom and unchecked immigration to the capital cities.
Successive governments just thought infrastructure would take care of itself and the market place could determine house values. ...wrong.
Its crunch time and its going to get a whole lot worse in the next decade unless they start building homes.
Rae
11th Jul 2017
2:34pm
Rosret anyone young starting out should try Brisbane. Get a job there and there are plenty of starter units for sale at 2005 prices now just a couple of stops from Central. Jobs too as I know quite a few young people getting full time jobs after graduation. The migrants seem fixated on Sydney and Melbourne and so fare the foreign investors.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
7:00pm
Rae I bought some units off the plan back then and just checked and today they are selling for very little more than I sold them back in about 2005.
Rae
12th Jul 2017
8:21am
That is right OG. Prices hit a high around 2007 and are now falling again as we approach the cycle bottom. That is why I suggested Brisbane. A starter 2 bedroom unit close to the CBD in leafy suburbs with cafes etc can be had for $320 000 to $380 000. A good starter price for a young working couple close to a city and jobs.

Certainly the mortgage and ownership costs would be less than rent.

Sydney and Melbourne are both too expensive now unless you earn high incomes.

Get the job first and then go from there. Rents are falling as well. Plenty of vacancies due to the unit construction boom.
Rainey
15th Jul 2017
1:11pm
OG, you are contradicting yourself again! How idiotic! If unit prices have not risen much since 2005, the economy is deteriorating - OBVIOUSLY!
MICK
11th Jul 2017
10:56am
The rich worldwide are growing richer. Fact.
Australia is engaged in class warfare and nobody should be surprised that all but the top are getting poorer by the year. That is how class warfare works and I hope that at the next election everybody does not conveniently forget that the rich were given tax cuts by this government, that the debt which the media never mentions has more than doubled over the past 5 years and that electricity prices have never gone down as promised under the current regime. Don't get me started. Just look at the damn facts and history rather than the media puppets milking you for all they are worth.
Ted Wards
11th Jul 2017
11:00am
Well said Mick!
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
11:48am
The rich have not been given tax cuts by this government. Companies have been given tax cuts. Individuals will actually pay more tax as their earnings from these companies will have reduced franking credits.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
11:58am
The rich have company structures to avoid taxes as well as trusts and also offshore tax shelters.
Who you protecting Geezer? You?
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
11:58am
The rich have to live so when they take money out of their companies or trusts they pay tax at the same rate as anyone else. So they don't gain by cuts to company tax at all.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
12:06pm
Yeah......their companies pay for and run their cars. Their companies have an entertainment budget too.
Don't get me started Geezer. Your post has a small amount of merit but you cleverly avoid the details.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
12:17pm
Fringe benefits tax takes care of that Mick.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
12:28pm
Possibly for some.
Remember also that the rich only take out what they need personally and cannot access via their company structures. The rest is a business deduction.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
12:49pm
'The rich have to live' - they don't need much help with that..... Jesus God, man - do you ever re-read your posts?

So I guess, by extension, that the poor don't have to live? Or that they only have to survive long enough to hit the work table again at the poor house?

FBT is not broad enough to actually capture the entire gamut of REAL fringe benefits... how else would Kerry Packer have a personal income of $25k but enjoy the benefits of millions?
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
1:32pm
The rich live very well indeed by exploiting the poor, evading tax, and cheating and stealing at every turn. FBT captures a tiny portion of the ''fringe benefits'' (rorts) claimed.

The billionaires in this nation and claiming incomes so low they would be paupers if their claims were true. They are live by sucking on the blood of the working class.

And they HAVE been given tax cuts - if only by abolishing a levy. Any reduction is a cut, by whatever name or description. Besides, company tax cuts enable the owners/directors/executives to take more of the profits.

The rich are getting ever richer and the poor are getting poorer. There's no way to justify that, and denying it is simply lying.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
1:35pm
Rubbish Rainey people have never had it so good. Even the poor are doing very well indeed.
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
1:51pm
There are none so blind, OG, as those who insist on believing their own self-serving lies.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
1:52pm
Did you watch the series on Homelessness on SBS recently? It should alarm us all that in a nation where people have never had it so good 100,000 people are homeless. Go figure.
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
1:59pm
One in seven living in poverty. Yep. That's wonderful. We are all doing so brilliantly. Sure, profits are up - because wages are down. Time for the greedy and self-serving to wake up and acknowledge the truth, because it will come back to bite us if we don't reverse the trend soon. Increasing poverty can only result in social problems that will hurt the rich more than the poor. Wait for it!
Rae
11th Jul 2017
2:39pm
Rainey I thought that too until I took a good look at the data and an even better look at Westfield's. After a few days watching carefully I've decided we are doing pretty well. In the US in 2009 the Malls, cafes, restaurants, food halls were empty. That's when you know times are tough. If people suddenly stop spending then I'll believe the gloom again.
Ella
11th Jul 2017
2:44pm
It's such a simplistic viewpoint to assume that if people are seen spending money at all they must be having it good.. Is one supposed to starve to prove a point? All the charities will tell anyone that they are seeing unprecedented numbers of families unable to pay basic bills and afford food after paying their rents or mortgages. The suicide rate in Australia is at epidemic levels . Credit debt is at an all time high as people fall back on credit to pay bills. Its only those out of touch with reality or very self centred who don't know this.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
2:45pm
Not sure I agree with you. You have forgotten Rae that the Rudd government borrowed big so that Australians were not thrown out of work. Americans were.
The irony is that America now has full employment, whatever that means, and Australia has a growing unemployment rate with the current government happy to keep sending more and more jobs offshore whilst turning workers here into dirt poor slaves. Then business demands the next round of wage cuts to restore what the government has done to us.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
2:57pm
Mick the Rudd government panicked and thought they could spend their way out of trouble instead of letting things sort themselves out like they should in any downturn. That's right they kicked the can down the road and that government debt today is the consequence of doing so.
Old Man
11th Jul 2017
3:29pm
MICK, the only time I recall zero unemployment was in the Whitlam era. That was calculated by having more jobs advertised than there were people unemployed. It was an interesting time.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
4:12pm
Geezer:

A coalition government would have allowed workers to be sacked en mass. That is how coalition governments think.
As to debt you are gilding the lily because the Abbott and Turnbull governments are the ones who ran up debt when the need had long passed. Check out the figures for yourself:

http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/news-federal-budget/2017/05/10/eighty-billion-dollars-bad-debt/?utm_source=Responsys&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20170511_TND

Look at the Table half way down.
You might want to stick to the facts rather than run the government narrative. We are not in parliament you know!

Old Man: correct. My statement was referring to the fact that America now supposedly has full employment whilst Australians are being sacked. Why?
Rae
11th Jul 2017
5:16pm
Ella I was widowed and raised three little kids alone while paying a mortgage. lost one house and on it went. We cut back to the bone and i can remember being hungry and getting to the end of the week on a box of weetbix. I'm not saying some people aren't doing it damn hard but it still isn't as bad as the US in 2009 or Egypt 2012. We have a safety net that provides for families.

MICK I honestly think Americans gave up on their government after 2009. The last two times I've been there things were looking much better and it was people exchanging money hand to hand doing it.
It's a funny old place. I can get a feed and a beer in the US for under $5 if I go where the cops and taxi drivers eat. The Americans were helping each other out and if times do get as bad as people here think is happening we can do that too.

Sitting back waiting for this government to help is a lost cause as far as I'm concerned. They can't be trusted.

OG if Rudd hadn't acted the NAB and possibly the ANZ and Macquarie would have fallen over. They were badly exposed to CDOs. The US FED bailed us out as well.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
11:34am
Just read elsewhere that one of the 'hidden taxes' generated by 'privatisation' as a means of funding government and welfaring for life some of their mates, namely toll roads, are costing $8000 a year. Add that to your costs of living, if you have the misfortune to live in a big city, and work that out for yourself in accordance with your income.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
11:51am
Last time I drove through Sydney my toll was over $20 and I have no doubt people must be paying those sort of amount each year. Return trip through the Clem Tunnel in Brisbane is now close to $12 too. Word has it that the new Ipswich Bypass will be about $30 to use.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
12:20pm
User pays TWICE. First time through taxes which are wasted. Second time via tolls. And we still have worst infrastructure in the western world.
We recently returned from a month in the south of France. Roads were in superb condition. Even narrow country roads were like new. When we witnessed road repairs these were done quickly on a mass production basis and in sections of kilometres, not metres like here in Australia. There is a reason why this country is turning into the third world: bad government on a monumental scale, no accountability from those in charge and rules which prohibit good work practises whilst employing people in the third world whilst paying our own to sit at home and get into trouble.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
12:52pm
That's partly why I said 'funding government' - it is clear at the State they are perpetually living beyond their means as a matter of policy, so as to exert pressure on the Commonwealth for more money through handouts or increased taxation (local councils do the same - let the roads run down while whining about no money, and waiting for the State and Fed to kick in while the road gang sits idle).

As for that 'living beyond their means' - that includes all their fancy commissions and such that so lavishly feed old party mates and old school buddies.... Labor are no way exempt there...
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
12:54pm
.. I should have included "and to guarantee forced selloff of publicly owned utilities held on behalf of the people" in handouts and increased taxation... me bad....

Got to keep on my game here.... never lose sight of the ball.. unlike.. say.. NSW in SOO II when they went to sleep in the last ten minutes just like Newcastle Knights do all the time.. (sobs)....
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
1:55pm
Contradicting yourself again, OG. You say people are lazy and won't work, and they are all well off, but the tolls are so high that many can't afford to drive to work let alone stretch unemployment benefits to cover the high cost of driving to an interview.

Oh, that's right. Those who can't afford bread should eat cake, and those who can't pay tolls should take taxis. Right, OG! You really are the ultimate arrogant hypocritical fool.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
7:05pm
Nope Rainey. Beside I thought people used Uber today not taxis. I phone a friend if I need a lift myself.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
7:27pm
Now remember you've got three lifelines - phone a friend, ask the gang to group travel, or take a chance on an Uber driver raping you if you're young, female and non-Arabic........ thirty seconds.....

I'll phone a friend, Eddie...
Rosret
11th Jul 2017
12:58pm
There are two income streams. The middle to lower incomes are polarising to being poorer and the higher professional and building industry jobs are the new wealthy.
There is money in Australia - I watch every day as my small country town is turning upside down with multistory developments. They are huge dwellings and the builders are getting top dollar.
This is the American capitalistic economic model. It has lasted longer than communism but all extremes eventually fail. The best and most successful economies share the wealth and grow as a nation not a greedy snatch and grab for the lucky. Why do you think the British developed the idea of a queue? Because its fair and its civilised.
No CEO should be earning $millions, no dentist should be charging a Kings ransom for a crown.
Eventually, as the Roman Empire failed with its slave economy, so too will our new pay scales. However the Roman Empire lasted 1600 years - we are but 200 years old riding on the back of a very successful Westminster system until the Bond era when "we" decided to hop on board the USA gravy train. That is - make money out of thin air and stand clear before the bubble bursts.
Jim
11th Jul 2017
1:12pm
I can only state my own circumstances, but I don't find myself any worse off now than 7 years ago when I retired, I have been on many holidays and bought a new car in that time, I did have one big advantage with my solar panels so haven't had an electricity bill for most of that time, that will change now with the loss of my rebate, I am not sure I could afford a month in the south of France, but good on you if you can, you have obviously worked hard for most of your life and deserve to spend your hard earned savings any way you want. I also travel quite a lot to Europe and the U.K. fortunately I have family and many friends that I can stay with so no cost for accomodation and not much for food, which is reciprocated when family and friends visit me. As for better infrastructure I hear plenty of complaints from locals about road works taking too long and constant interruptions to traffic, from a personal view point I find it difficult to drive in many European countries and also navigating the M25 parking lot/ring road is ridiculous, but of course that might be just me. I still think we live in the best country in the world, although it's obvious that some are doing it tough, but I think that there are a lot of countries that are worse off, I constantly count my blessings. I am almost on the full pension so I guess I am not considered wealthy, I do own my own home so I guess that's another considerable advantage.
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
1:48pm
Dim. I am also comfortably off and able to live reasonably well, but my fears arise from the unfair and economically destructive changes I am seeing. They may not affect me directly (yet), but they certainly hurt others and ultimately they will hurt the nation. Falls in average household income are certain to result in deterioration in overall social and economic conditions. We shouldn't focus on our own situation, but rather look at the broader picture and the likely implications of them.

Cutting company taxes, cutting tax for the wealthy, raising politicians' wages, and allowing uncontrolled growth in the assets of the super-rich while cutting pensions and penalty rates can only increase inequity, and it's been widely acknowledged that inequity is a serious social and economic danger. Poverty IS increasing, and poverty leads to family breakdown, addiction, violence, crime, mental illness, physical illness... the list goes on. One would think we would have learned from history that sharing national wealth in a reasonably fair manner is better for everyone. But maybe it will take yet another blood bath before the greedy rich will stop their pillaging and plundering? I hope not.

Regardless of personal circumstances, I think we all have an obligation to speak out in defence of those who are suffering. Keep in mind the old saying. Who will speak on your behalf when they eventually come for you? None of us can be certain we aren't next in line to suffer.
Ella
11th Jul 2017
2:50pm
Exactly. You can't assess the circumstances of others purely on your own situation. This i find incredibly self centred. As in.....I'm ok so everyone else should be.
Gratefully I'm in a good position but it doesn't mean I'll live with blinkers on
Jim
11th Jul 2017
3:12pm
I take your point and repeat that I can only judge things as they are for me, as we all can, the comment from Ella is way off the mark, I am not and have never been self centred I thought I made it quite clear that I was commenting on my own personal situation, that does not mean I don't care about others, in fact my wife and I have done volunteering work for many years, more so my wife, who has never been in paid employment but has worked extremely hard in church charity shops,schools and doing meals on wheels, even though we are not religious, so we are definitely not blinkered nor do adopt the I'm alright jack position. I have witnessed poverty first hand, having been born in the forties when we didn't know where our next meal was coming from, so I find that the comments of some people expressing an opinion that has no substance regarding the comments I made to be expressing a holier than thou attitude.
Joy Anne
11th Jul 2017
1:18pm
Totally agree with Rainey. The government is screwing all the workers and they are getting more for doing nothing for Australia, except increase the Turnbulls govt pay and tax relief.
thommo
11th Jul 2017
1:22pm
We are getting poorer because our greedy politicians make it so...Just look at what this LNP govt has done. Adversely changed the assets test, complicit in reducing weekend penalty rates, further reducing assistance from low income families, reducing medicare rebates, reducing the dole..the list goes on....
These politicians take a 2.5% pay rise while nearly 1 million workers lose weekend penalty rates,, they maintain negative gearing to increase their own wealth through investment properties, at the expense of first home buyers....
This list goes on...they favour the rich and the big end of town with their right-wing conservative policies.....But they will get their comeuppance at the next election when they will be thrown out of office. And good riddance to them...
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
1:32pm
It's great that the government has been trying to reign in welfare and those penalty rates are now not necessary in a 24/7 society.
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
1:38pm
Yes, of course OG, you, as one of the greedy selfish rich, would be delighted to see the majority suffer so that your privileged class can be richer. We have come to expect such arrogance, greed, nastiness and cruelty from you.

Thommo, I only hope you are right that this government will be thrown out. It can't happen soon enough. And yes, good riddance. But I fear it's unlikely the other mob will be much better. Bottom line is that the politicians are rich and they only care about their own class. Greed and selfishness prevails.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
1:54pm
Yeah Geezer. Reign in welfare and then hand out money via tax cuts like lollies to children. You are one sick rich puppy mate.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
2:49pm
The asset test was changed because people were not spending their capital so obviously they were getting too much welfare. If people don't start spending their capital the asset test will be tightened further.

People need to realise Mick that the days of pollies buying votes by handing out "lollies" is over and they need to live within their means or suffer the consequences of not doing so.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
2:54pm
Mick I'm neither rich or sick and hence are one of the rare Australians who make this country money not take from it. There needs to be many more like me.
Rae
11th Jul 2017
3:07pm
Yes there was absolutely no need to cut company tax lower than 30%. This Government needs to figure out how to get some return for all that coal, iron ore, gas and beef because right now they are giving it away for nothing.

There is no money for welfare or much else.
Blossom
11th Jul 2017
3:32pm
For some people on the dole - especially those with dependant children it is often not a financial incentive to take a few hours casual work in one week only. I know a guy who did - he simply wanted to work and knew it would definitely only be a couple of days- declared his wage and was actually worse off financially than he would have been not working at all. Cost of driving to and from the job in a small car - public transport is not available at the time he had to start so early, taxis would have cost as much as he earnt, and physically it was impossible for him to walk that far (he has injuries to both knees) - meant he actually cleared less than the dole.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
4:03pm
Not sure if you have done anything productive in your working life. You sound like a taker who wants to walk over average hard working people.
I have no argument with poor people who try their best and work hard when given a chance. Od course there have to be jobs there and we both know that this is a myth run by the right. The destroy jobs to create a dependent underclass, better known as slaves. For their use!

I agree with you Rae. Australia's wealth is being raped by the international owners who have worked put how to get our resources and pay next to nothing for them. Some of our right wing posters on this website consider that to be creating wealth.
This is a very personal issue for me as I made my strategic investment in LNG in the 90s only to be sold out by the Howard regime who let all of our world class assets go offshore. The irony is that there is an almost nil return for Australians and we have no gas for ourselves. Now we have the next coalition government behaving in the same reckless manner. SO WHERE ARE THE JOURNALISTS TELLING THE STORY???? Mostly nowhere to be seen. In their little box protecting their jobs.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
6:46pm
You've been chopped on that one before, OG - I thought that cloud of smoke was where you went down in flames - there is absolutely no reason anyone should be spending their assets to get by in retirement when the pension is bought and paid for.

That is a complete lie foisted on us by a self-interested government, and as before, any such concept coming into play will mean that only the well-off will be 'entitled' to leave any inheritance etc or to live at a reasonable level on their accumulated assets - and the future for that is a society in which all the assets will fall into the hands of those with the most already, and future civil war is inevitable.

I would recommend you read the 1960's book 'Intervention and Revolution' by Richard K Barnet, to see exactly how long any government can keep a lid on revolt, using all means including violence and terror.

I foresaw this kind of thing happening here way back when the 'domestic violence' laws were introduced. These were never intended to curtail violence - and have clearly only created more and more in several ways - they were, in fact, designed to exercise violence by the state against a specified demographic - something for which any African dictator would face contempt in the international arena, conviction of crimes against humanity, and invasion by foreign troops to curtail HIS actions.

No - I'm not Mark Latham - but I sometimes suspect he's listening to me.
Rainey
12th Jul 2017
12:20pm
"The assets test was tightened because people weren't spending their capital''. Really, OG? So you condone forcing strugglers who saved into hardship in their old age and denying their children a fair go while the richer folk continue to hoard their capital in tax havens?

If the motive of the assets test change was as you say, then everyone who supported it should be hung. That's a vile and extremely selfish approach to getting more money into circulation, and a counter-productive one also.

Most of those who were unfairly hurt are either driving the housing crisis by buying bigger homes or spending their money overseas. And they will qualify for bigger pensions in the future.

The government got it wrong, and it's time more of us had the intelligence and respect to call them on it. We need people with more brains in parliament - people who can devise policies that are fair and respectful and in the genuine national interest.
Old Geezer
12th Jul 2017
3:15pm
No the government didn't get it wrong as if people are not spending their capital then they are simply being paid too much welfare. If you save for retirement you need to spend your money on retirement not put out your hand for others to support you in your old age. Centrelink statistics would have told the government that people's assets weren't decreasing so it is obvious that they are relying solely on the OAP and handouts from the taxpayer.

Under current legislation they may qualify for bigger pensions but I doubt that will continue as the country can't afford it. Any OAP received will be one day soon be a debt to be repaid from one's estate. You don't need a crystal ball to see that coming.
Rainey
15th Jul 2017
1:08pm
If that comes, there will be hardly anybody bothering to work anymore, OG. Only a blithering IDIOT would suggest that people should work for no reward. But sadly there are plenty of blithering IDIOTS in this world - which is why welfare costs will continue to rise. There is a simple solution to our welfare costs problem. Restore sensible incentives and rewards and provide support and education for people to learn how to be more independent, and TAX THE DISGUSTING GREEDY RICH FAIRLY. There is tons of money stashed in tax havens that should be supporting economic growth in our own country.
Old Geezer
15th Jul 2017
3:15pm
Rainey it will not be of a concern for those who work smart and save smart as it is not difficult to earn and save enough today to become gully self funded in old age especially with super. Many people will in the future have much more than even the old asset test.

Today the old asset test is only in the memories of the very few that it affected so will soon be history so of no significance.

As more people get more super the OAP will become harder to get and quite frankly many cannot live on it alone so it will become the safety net for which it was designed not something that is nice to have but not needed.

Super will be all the sensible incentives and rewards that will be needed in the future.

Most of the high income earners pay most of the tax in Australia today and you want them to pay more? No wonder they look at ways to minimise their tax. I certainly would be.
Rainey
17th Jul 2017
2:26am
Spoken like a true arrogant, selfish, self-interested ''blue blood'', OG. What a lot of CRAP!

Firstly, there will be retirees living for 3 more decades yet who had little or no superannuation and no reasonable opportunity to save much for old age. (But who contributed to a pension fund through taxes that was STOLEN by a corrupt government!)

Secondly, there are vast numbers of yet-to-retire who saw the introduction of super well into their working life and didn't get to accrue much.

Thirdly, millions of young workers simply don't earn enough to accrue more than a very modest amount of superannuation.

And fourthly ALL THE SUBSTANTIAL SUPER ACCRUED IS IN THE HANDS OF THE RICH BASTARDS WHO PAY BUGGER ALL TAX WHILE THE STRUGGLERS GET NO TAX DEDUCTION FOR THEIR SUPER CONTRIBUTIONS. We have a disgustingly unfair system that funds the growth of super for the high income earners with huge tax concessions while giving nothing to, or actually sometimes penalizing, the strugglers for saving for retirement. And that system is costing far more than the OAP, which would be highly affordable and could be paid at a much higher rate if the economy were managed properly.

The old assets test will be remembered for a very long time by people who will suffer hardship in old age because of the stupidity of the change, and by taxpayers who will rapidly discover that the IDIOTIC change is driving the cost of the OAP sky high!

The high income earners in Australia pay NOWHERE NEAR what they ought to pay for the benefits society provides them, and it is well-evidenced that tax avoidance and evasion by the wealthy is a major and growing problem that is destroying modern economies and societies. YES, THEY SHOULD PAY MORE - A LOT MORE. We all know how selfish and unconscionable they are, but the tax laws need to be tightened to MAKE THEM PAY THEIR WAY, otherwise our society is doomed.

Self-funded retirees will be far fewer than could be in years to come because of DUMB government policies and the greed of the rich. It IS difficult to earn enough to be self-funded in retirement - ESPECIALLY if you are victimized with unfair government changes, and in today's world nobody is safe from those! But the arrogant well off will continue to lie to themselves and others, because the truth is just too uncomfortable for them to face!
KB
11th Jul 2017
1:41pm
The less money people have the less they will be able to spend money to keep the economy running and keep people in jobs I fer to those of us who rely on the disability and aged pension.
Rainey
11th Jul 2017
1:49pm
Likewise, KB. This government is engineering a social and economic disaster.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
1:56pm
Correct.
Selling jobs overseas, turning full time jobs into part time jobs and flogging off state owned assets is a ticking time bomb. One day we will all wake up and will be living in tents....as the big end of town wants. That used to be called slavery.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
2:52pm
Jobs have been sent overseas because we have priced our selves out of the market. Unfortunately we are living beyond our means as a country and to get the debt under control will mean sacrifice that none are prepared to do.
Rae
11th Jul 2017
3:18pm
Yes OG the prices for everything are ridiculously high here especially insurances. Don't know how you fix it. Maybe halve the prices and then the wages. Wages can be kept low overseas as the price of everything is very low. Even China is being priced out by The Phillipines and India now.

Getting that 2 trillion private debt off the books will either make life tough for people or bankrupt our banks. I thought at the time people were crazy to borrow so much but then I'd learnt my lesson by losing a house the last cycle and we are a couple of years away from the bottom yet I believe.

I can't believe the reckless spending on discretionary items going on. I know if insurance keeps rising I'll be cancelling mine. It's like a money pit that is never ever satisfied.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
3:23pm
Next time you decide to overseas on a holiday see what the difference in prices are with your computer being seen to be in Australia and then in that country. There is certainly a big difference between prices for same accommodation etc. It is called the Australia Tax.
Rae
11th Jul 2017
5:31pm
Yes OG I'm well aware of prices as when travelling I shop with the locals and picnic in parks. I also eat with the cops and taxi drivers. I like best of all to get out amongst the locals and ask about what is happening.

I can get a great room downtown in most US cities for half the price of an Australian equivalent and a lot less service here too.

Australia is incredibly expensive. I don't eat out here much at all as the prices are shocking. A meal for two at a pub will feed us very well indeed for at least week.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
5:45pm
Most places we eat we ask for one meal and two plates to share. More than ample for the 2 of us.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
6:54pm
Indeed, Rae - the Asian economic phenomenon began with Japan, which was overtaken by the 'four little tigers', who were then temporarily supplanted by a burgeoning china (with massive Western help as a means to culturally assimilate those Commies into the capitalist way), and now china is being out-flanked by the next round of 'little Asian tigers'.

So - eventually all these nations will be in much the same boat as they were before - history shows us that 'prosperity' always leads to inflation and eventually a lower standard of living for many and massive social and economic divides within a nation - and certainly none of those nations shows much sign of the 'socialist' spirit, but rather each has its share of mega-billionaires and billions of poor...

While all this is going on, the West is declining to the same level of incomes and social and economic divides.... a disaster of monumental proportions waiting to happen.... (and the start of WW III, which is another looming book series of mine - I know.. I know.. should've done III before I did IV.... but the causes of WWIV are the results of III, and like I being primarily the cause of II, the same applies... we win the war, but lose the peace.. always...)
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
7:32pm
Next time I decide on an overseas holiday it will be the first for many a long year.... you need to get a firm grip on something else, OG....

Unfortunately I had to sell my yacht since it needed repairs I could not do where it was, and I could not run it home.... oh, well - the young man who bought it will turn it into a good business.. it's big enough at 50' long and 16' wide.
Rae
12th Jul 2017
8:34am
That is a shame TREBOR. Nothing like a nice long sail to clear the cobwebs away.

I can't imagine WW111 now that we produce nothing much, not even fuel refining. Once the shipping stops I have serious doubts about the resilience or creativity of our younger people.

Imagine rationing and trying to tell them no you can't have that now.
No a credit card won't work.

A lot of the poor wage situation has been caused by lack of control and credit use. Data shows 26 years of boom. If people had just stopped spending like the yanks did then maybe the low wage problem would have been sorted out.

While ever the majority keep on using credit it will always appear that things are just dandy.
TREBOR
13th Jul 2017
8:08am
In my WW IV series the whole box and dice follows on from The Greatest Depression... history has a terrible way of repeating itself. The inability to move finished goods was a prime mover of The Great Depression, not the inability to produce.

When people can't buy, you have no market and it all falls down. Add to that the hidden concerns over petroleum stocks and reserves, and you see a disaster in the making on a grand scale.

In WW IV (my series) mass travel is by steam train.... funny... but not funny....
GrandmaKathleen22
11th Jul 2017
1:55pm
First of all, Australia is not broke. We don't have a funding emergency. We print our own currency. Secondly, the worst off I have ever been is when we had a big family on one income. Now as pensioners we use that experience to budget very effectively.
The low income workers need more regular rises in order to survive and giving them those rises is beneficial for the economy because they spend their income.
The same goes for pensioners who also put their money back into the economy.
People need to spend. Businesses go broke like in America at the moment which is bad for the economy.
It is always wise to remember that the household budget is not a good comparison with the country's budget as too many factors influence the latter like trade, natural resources, etc.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
2:01pm
I see where you are coming from but budgets of any kind are made to live within your means. The current government does not respect this and is of the opinion it can waste taxpayer money like a sailor on shore leave and then increase taxes when that is all gone. Of course it is workers who are chased for taxes whilst the top gets tax cuts.
You might want to keep a more open mind on the game we are living through at present. Anybody who wants to see the truth can provided they are not aligned with any of the political football teams who are for the most part run/controlled by vested interests. Almost always the rich pulling those strings.
GrandmaKathleen22
11th Jul 2017
2:32pm
Mick, I have an open mind. I research. Of course the political parties have vested interests. There are some genuine souls amongst them though. Not everyone is tarred with the same brush. Case in point, the LNP at the moment.....how diverse are they? Labor lite through to Far Right and way far right! They cannot speak with one voice nor should they? And no, I do not support them at this point in time.
Rae
11th Jul 2017
3:21pm
Yes Grandma and the 3.3% increase in the minimum wage will help I expect. It isn't all gloom.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
3:48pm
Plenty of choices in politics. I find it a matter of sadness that anybody can even consider the coalition as a contender after the past 5 years. What hope do people who enslave themselves have when they even think that way. Oh yes....Brian told me! God help us.
Old Man
11th Jul 2017
2:10pm
We, like a lot of others in this forum, are on a fixed income so what happens with wages, overtime or penalty rates is academic. It is quite clear that costs have risen at a rate much higher than the increase in the age pension. Whilst our super is holding its own, there is no increase in the compulsory amount to be withdrawn. Not whinging, just saying.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
2:20pm
What super?
Old Man
11th Jul 2017
2:33pm
Sorry MICK, I know what I mean but the terminology has slipped my mind. You know, when super becomes usable and you have to take a percentage of it. Help me out here.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
2:46pm
Just saying I have none. Took the paltry lump sum and invested it. Best thing I ever did.
Old Man
11th Jul 2017
3:02pm
Yes MICK, I can relate to paltry sum.
floss
11th Jul 2017
2:11pm
Funny how a change of a Federal Government bought this problem about, their changes to superannuation and asset testing put us below C.Link pensions as to income. Most people that I talk to are in trouble with the rising utility costs due this mad privatisation policy.When a government looses control of its essential services we are in big trouble.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
2:23pm
The wider issue is that retirees are an easy target and fixed incomes just exacerbates the problem. Add in the fires of inflation being stoked and retirees are in trouble. Don't expect this government to care as long as they are not affected. But then politicians have their own sweet self introduced deals. That's why we do not matter.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
3:24pm
Mick self funded retirees have not been a target by the government at all.
Rae
11th Jul 2017
3:25pm
MICK we have been a target all our lives. During our prime earning time interest rates and taxes were historically high and now in retirement we make little from savings or receive non of the financial help promised as interest rates and taxes are historically low.

We have been had big time.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
3:46pm
Geezer: interest rates down, cost of living up, access to pensions denied, retirement age up and oldest in the world. And now we have genYs wanting mum and dad to stump up the dough for their lifestyle and a government intent on coming after a lifetime of deprivation and saving.
Sounds like you are a politician Geezer. Being looked after yourself whilst your fellow Australians are under attack on all sides.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
4:41pm
Mick I earn a lot more than I spend and that has been increasing nearly every year. I wont say what my return was last year but I did better than super funds with their 10% return and that's with interest rates down. My cost of living hasn't risen for years now as I am still spending the same as I did 5 years ago. Some things go but others things come down to balance it all out. Yes I know all about the GenYs and help them out with their big purchases if they can save some themselves first. I don't even belong to a political party and certainly don't feel like anyone is attacking me at all.

The increase in the retirement age will give people the option of retiring before pension age and they can spend down their retirement money instead. Good idea that one.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
7:01pm
Perhaps it is germane, then, OG - for you to rest content with your own situation, which not everyone can do any more than everyone out of work in Ipswich can open a fish and chip shop and act the part of a laird, and leave others alone?

You keep saying how you've got your tricks all sorted out - since you are unwilling to provide details (probably for fear of the tax man) and perhaps help out a few people with your amazing wisdom and street smarts - why not just leave everyone else alone with the assets they've accumulated over a lifetime for their own and their descendant's enjoyment?

Just what the hell is the matter with you?
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
7:04pm
Let me put it to you simply - if everyone used your tricks there's be zero market in what it is you do, so you would go bust, so like any other business, you have zero right to demand that others 'get off their arse' and go build a 'smart' business like you claim to have ... if they all did there's be no businesses left.

A coffee shop on every corner and three in between... twenty-nine pizza shops to the city block .... forty eight fish and chip shops to the square mile in Ipswich..... yeah - that'd work....

(face palm emoticon implied).....
Rainey
12th Jul 2017
12:23pm
What's the matter with OG, Trebor? Selfishness and greed are known to destroy brain cells. He's got virtually none left after a lifetime of self-serving nastiness. We probably should be sympathetic.
Old Geezer
12th Jul 2017
3:29pm
No need to be sympathetic to me Rainey. Too many people tell way too many white lies and gloss over the real truth in our society just because they may offend. I fine that attitude very annoying myself. If you can't say it how it is then why bother saying anything.
Rainey
15th Jul 2017
12:56pm
How it is, OG, is you are dumb, illogical, ignorant, arrogant, cruel, selfish, self-serving and rude. Selfishness and greed have addled your brain.
Old Geezer
15th Jul 2017
3:17pm
Well what can I say about all those kind words.
floss
11th Jul 2017
2:20pm
Just a thought gang if we stopped all immigration right now would most of our problems in this country disappear if not why , please explain.
jackyd
11th Jul 2017
5:03pm
Not quite. ...controlling immigration to a stable level and levels of skill is fundamental to Nation building. ...but that's only part of the story.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
7:06pm
.. and fitting it into infrastructure that is firmly establish with future development, unlike the current mode in, say, Sydney, where there are miles and miles of new Mcmansions and no buses or trains to speak of.... it's called the urban wasteland.... and fifty plus years after the event, gives a whole new meaning to the WHO's 'Teenage Wasteland'.....
Rae
13th Jul 2017
8:58am
No floss. We simply do not have enough tax payers any longer to support the growing number of dependents. This is why people with money are being required to spend it supporting themselves.

And government after government is sill cutting taxes.

Without immigration there would be even less taxes collected.
Rainey
14th Jul 2017
1:59pm
But Rae, the politicians don't seem to have the common sense to understand why their policies are counter-productive and are driving pension costs up. I corresponded with the Treasurer about this and his aide responded that the Treasury advisers deal with numbers, not psychology. That's really dumb! You can't work out the numbers correctly if you don't factor in human behaviour.

Some here suggest pensions should be repaid out of estates. Think about that rationally. What they are saying is that while the well-off get huge tax concessions and reduce their contribution to society in every possible way, and then pass their estate to their offspring, the struggling workers should be told ''as punishment for consenting to work for low wages for 50 years, and pay tax without the concessions the rich get, you will forfeit everything you worked for and pass nothing on to your offspring merely because you couldn't earn enough to be self-sufficient in old age.'' Now why should people work for low wages when such punishment applies for doing so? Many will simply gift their houses to kids before turning 60 and claim rent assistance to avoid the harsh penalty.

Similarly, many who perceive they are being harshly punished for saving well and being responsible are now spending up big and planning to collect a larger pension than they otherwise would have, because they are being denied benefit from their saving.

We need politicians who can appreciate that for every action there is an opposite reaction. We need politicians who will examine proposed policy from the perspective of those on whom it will impact.

We can't save taxpayer dollars and reduce pension costs by attacking the people whose efforts reduce their dependency. Those who battle to pay off mortgages and own a home in retirement and those who struggle to accumulate a sizable nest egg for later life should be encouraged and rewarded. The assets test needs to be structured to recognize current return rates and ensure those who saved can retain their savings for future needs, and pass on their estates to drive improved prosperity for their offspring. Then focus on education and support to show others how to achieve similar savings. Incentives, rewards, education and support can drive a more affluent nation with massively reduced welfare needs. But the current approach will only increase the demand on the welfare system and ultimately ensure Australians continue to get poorer.
Rae
15th Jul 2017
9:46am
I agree Rainey. As a saver I see the unfairness all the time. I know business people with hidden assets who are getting full pensions.
Only PAYG are forced to save for retirement after all. How blatantly patronising is that?

Friends getting a couple of years full OAP while the younger spouses accumulation fund sits out as an uncounted asset.

Young couples quite willing to make do for years on welfare rather than bother to work for slightly higher take home pay.

One spouse getting welfare while the other works. Way too many on welfare for those picking up the tab.

It is exactly this sort of behaviour that will require the home to be included in the asset test eventually.

The bottom line is that there are too many on welfare and simply not enough taxpayers to support them going forward.

Yes the wealthy should be taxed but that seems too hard now since the great tax cutting started in Howard's time. And there aren't that many of them to begin with, certainly not the home grown variety anyway.

Fixed costs are rising for rates, insurances and energy. In particular the energy rises will cause angst I expect.

No it isn't fair or sensible but there you go. What are you going to do for your people?

I have already gifted a fair amount to my kids. I'll hopefully never need welfare. I'm actively saving, investing for income even now 11 years into retirement. I may even go looking at another job or set up a market stall to generate income.

In the future it would be wise for young workers to forget dreams of buying in high priced Sydney or Melbourne and seek something affordable in a smaller regional town that can be rented out and provide a roof for retirement.

Sure rail against injustice but if you can't change the situation then how do you adapt to it?

Super is a dead loss for most workers now. Home buying is out of reach.

My advice is to try to stay right out of government clutches, pay the tax due and enjoy each day as best you can.

This too will pass but it might get damn nasty as it does.
Raphael
11th Jul 2017
2:34pm
4th time in 30 years does not a trend make.
Scaremongering again I see and a complete lack of understanding of statistic and one-off numbers.
Without an understanding of the drivers of the underlying numbers, please don't jump to silly conclusions
The long term trend is still positive.
We never had it so good and it will only get better
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
2:46pm
I agree.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
2:53pm
Statistics??? Just wait...still on the floor in a laughing fit.

Ok, back again. What trend are you referring to? The one where the debt has been sent through the roof by the current government? Or is it the destruction of our jobs which are sent offshore to employ foreigners? Or maybe the tax cuts for the rich?
So what part of "we never had it so good are we talking about"? Tell that to the 100,000 homeless people in our so called wealthy country. Oh yeah....trickle down economics????? Next lie?

The long term trend you mention is the sale of the last few things which are not foreign owned. Rural land progressing well. A couple of ports left. All of our big companies are at least half foreign owned already. So what do you think will happen when nothing, and I mena nothing, is locally owned any more? Will it be any different to our huge LNG assets which Australians cannot access a single molecule of?

Give it a break guys. Your post is propaganda. No facts. As always.
Raphael
11th Jul 2017
3:06pm
Mick - please focus.

The article says Gross Disposable income fell for the 4th time in 30 years.

The rest of the 26, its been increasing .....

Never mind Mick, stick to your negative labor dogma, and while youre at it why not raise taxes so you can lower disposable income even more. Typical labor strategy no? tax tax tax
MICK
11th Jul 2017
3:39pm
Taxes for working Australians already going up. And then there are the attack on services. Being cut everywhere.
The issue of "disposable" income related to rents and mortgage repayments.
What you fail to want to discuss is that the nation as a whole is being sold out. With more and more jobs going to Asia, assets being sold to foreign investors and class warfare forcing working Australians into poverty it should come as no surprise that spending is going down. Add to that the fact that America supposedly now has full employment and we are building a picture.
Instead of the normal right wing BS about lefties, unions. pick batts and school halls YOU might want to address what has been going on for the past 5 years.
Of course disposable income is going down. What else would you expect? Your answer to anything and everything bad in the nation: tax cuts for the wealthy and new taxes for the poor. Yeah...trickle down economics!!!!
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
7:44pm
'long term trend is still positive' - for whom and in what way? The issue here is the escalating social and economic divisions within this nation, as wrought by government interference, indifference and incapacity.

I've said it before - if Australia is 'the 12th most prosperous nation on Earth' - the rest must be in a damned terrible state...

A 'trend' to more of the kind of 'investment' we are copping here and now is in no way positive.

A 'trend' towards rising partial employment for more is not positive in any way.

A 'trend' for a rapidly growing savagely disadvantaged class is not positive in any way.

Perhaps, Rafe, you could explain that 'trend' of yours in some detail... so we can dismantle it for you...

Mayhap you are speaking of some long term prediction of what may happen as long as the unicorns and fairies don't run off with it all.... which reminds me - how did the last twelve month budget turn out? Deep in the black again or perhaps 'trending' that way, thus cutting out the 'need' to chop away at social security, pensions and services?

A budget is, after all only a prediction of the next twelve months... did it work... or do we just ignore the real outcomes from it?

Funny how parties never like to say - 'oh - we budgeted for a sakazillion in new defence spending, that would boost internal jobs by 357.2% exactly... and here are the figures on the table to show that actually happened'... NOPE - we hear that no matter how many sakazillions have actually been spent - unemployment and under-employment are still rising, defence is in chaos and needs funding desperately, the 'targets' were not met due to poor workmanship so we need to offshore work, and the budget is desperately in need of repair and the Other Party cause it all!!

And NO substantial figures are ever presented - if a local social group did that, their treasurer would be in court on charges...
Rae
12th Jul 2017
8:40am
Most of the rest of the world is in very bad shape TREBOR. Some of these places have been Developing for countless centuries with little success. Yes it is entirely because of the very rich few and countless poor thing going on and no social contract or help at all.

Our 'wealth' is based on a pretty good system of public/private income distribution. Of course it created the middle class and the current lot are trying to destroy that as best they can.

We too can be more like Argentina as time goes by. A few , mostly international corporations owning everything, and a pile of peasants and revolutionaries.
Scottishlass
11th Jul 2017
2:38pm
Every person I know if feeling the pinch. We spend less and the economy suffers. Business suffers. Lifestyle deteriorates. But politicians got a pay rise. Mmmm.
I remember labor giving a lump sum to low income tax payers. To feed to economy.
This govt is doing the opposite. Hitting the poor and so called middle class. Who are stretched to the max. And are the ones that feed to economy. Or did. I've had enough !!
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
2:45pm
Everyone I know is just whinging because enough is never enough for them.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
2:55pm
Tell that to the 100,000 people who are homeless and live on the streets Geezer. Get out there on a cold night and get a tour. That is something all rich people need to do twice a year so that they remember the pain before they demand the next tax cut...for them.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
3:00pm
Mick I know what it is to sleep on the streets as I have been there myself. It is actually not that bad with a nice fire to keep you warm at night.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
3:40pm
Ever been to Melbourne of Canberra, not to mention Hobart, in the middle of winter.
Pretty sick trying to dress this up as anything other than class warfare with casualties galore. Shameful of you Geezer.
Rae
11th Jul 2017
3:44pm
I don't think I know anyone not still spending money on discretionary items. I did it far tougher in the late 80s and 90s with the very high interest rates and three kids to feed and cloth.

I'm surprised there aren't tents set up for the homeless. And stretcher beds and soup kitchens, It can't be that hard surely.

If it is the mental illness then that was a choice the goodies decided we needed as the institutions were worse than the streets apparently. I nursed at Peat and Milson and Callan Park during my uni days and was horrified when they let those poor people loose to fend for themselves.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
7:48pm
Just build a fire in the forecourt of the shopping mall - the cops, firies and the businesses won't mind.... and a good bridge keeps the dew and frost off... light a fire, sing a few songs...
Rainey
12th Jul 2017
12:06pm
Mick, it would be pointless asking most rich people to go out and see how the homeless suffer on a cold night, because they are mostly just like OG - lying, arrogant self-serving folk who pretend to have been there and done that (despite privilege and a university education!!!) and excuse their own greed and selfishness by telling themselves these poor folk deserve their misfortune and can simply choose to improve their circumstances.

You've surely seen OG's disgusting allegations that 800,000 unemployed simply don't want to work? And now he's gone so far as to suggest that the disadvantaged should be gassed. This is the attitude of the rich. They honestly think they are superior and more deserving of a comfortable life. And they are quick to contrive wild yarns to try to allocate blame for all that is wrong in society to the victims of those wrongs.

Note that they also want to see suppression and deprivation of those who succeed in lifting themselves out of abject poverty. If you don't make it to the ranks of the well-to-do, you must be stamped on and bashed back down.

Ultimately, it's just the sick desire of the privileged to position themselves to gloat endlessly, and to restore the master/slave relationship driving the current social and economic deterioration.
Old Geezer
12th Jul 2017
3:20pm
Well all I'll say Rainey is that I hope you don't end up lingering on for years unable to do anything for yourself tied to a chair or bed for your own safety wallowing in your own waste and dribble.
Rainey
13th Jul 2017
3:31pm
What a thoroughly stupid and irrelevant response, OG. You make no sense at all! What the hell has lingering on wallowing in waste and dribble got to do with a discussion about the homeless and unemployed and suppression of the poor by the rich? How is there any connection between your rant about age and disability and the master/slave relationship?

I won't end up lingering for years after the quality of life is gone because I have a valid plan in place to end my life when my time comes - quite legally, and with the aid of a daughter who will act according to law by transporting me to a jurisdiction where compassionate termination of life is not just legal, but widely endorsed. But that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with this discussion.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
3:04pm
Sounds to me like a lot of people don't know how well they have it and whinge as the more they get the more they want.
Raphael
11th Jul 2017
3:08pm
Too right

They want other peoples disposable incomes. Greedy thieves
MICK
11th Jul 2017
3:42pm
Don't know about you two rich folk but we have been belt tightening for the past 5 years. Not looking any better any time soon.....and you have the hide to call those being done over by the current government "thieves". Just shows who you are.
Rae
11th Jul 2017
3:50pm
Mick I.ve been belt tightening too but a month in France is not doing it tough. I've just been in Darwin for a while myself.

I'm tightening spending because the government denim we income I was counting on and now I'n saving and investing to replace it myself.

I could go out and spend if I wanted to but I realise prices are rising and will rise and I won't get the 3% income rise that workers just received.

So unlike the government selling assets then crying about no income I'm saving to buy income producers while I still can.

It's called delaying gratification and some of us can do it.
MICK
11th Jul 2017
4:21pm
You have a point Rae, and it was 3 months in France with one month touring. Out of interest that indulgence was on a very small budget.
We are most certainly belt tightening. Not comfortable spending a little of our capital but we need to catch up on a lifetime of doing without and this may be the price we need to pay.
I am not sure if the current rout is almost over but people are doing it tough. Retirees are probably at the top of this list as fixed incomes leave people fragile. I expect that the introduction of cryptocurrency will see things get even worse. Maybe time to stop worrying about the future.
Raphael
11th Jul 2017
5:00pm
Yes - typical leaners, don't worry about the future, just spend spend spend and hold your handout for government to provide

Mick - if you are financially independent now, shame on you if you think you should be spending capital just because you can go on the pension later
Rae
11th Jul 2017
5:59pm
Raphael I decided decades ago to do it for myself. I will never get a government pension nor any other hand out for that matter. I pays my own way. Personally I await the day the young rise and pull the IPA headquarters apart. It'll be champers bottles popping around here.

If you really want to know what spenders and leaners look like go take a look at the Liberal Headquarters. Or any gathering of CEOs.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
7:50pm
Pretty hard not to want a share of the pie when your own disposable income is hovering just above zero....

Politics of envy to try to cut some out of their share of that pie and force them to eat dirt....
Rainey
12th Jul 2017
11:49am
Raphael, I am self-sufficient and hope to be for the remainder of my life, but there can be no excuse for the injustice that resulted in many retirees being denied the benefit of their own work and savings so that retirees who didn't work or save nearly as well - but were still relatively well off - could have more.

I don't blame anyone for responding to the government's stupidity and unfairness. The changed assets test positioned many worse off in income terms than pensioners, as punishment for being hard working and frugal. It then offered them the opportunity to either invest in more expensive housing and recover the pension and benefit they were wrongly deprived of, or spend $100K on a world cruise and collect up to an extra $185,000 in pension and benefits over 10 years.

It would be nice if everyone had the personal integrity and selflessness to reject that temptation, but it is unreasonable to blame anyone for taking advantage of a dumb government act that was certainly never genuinely intended to save taxpayer money - and is guaranteed to drive pension costs higher as well as to deprive retirees unfairly of the benefit of their own endeavour. If some folk are smart enough to circumvent such wrongful acts, more power to them. They are not to blame, and it's unreasonable to brand them ''selfish'' or ''leaners''. They worked hard for what they have and they ought to be rewarded for doing so - not punished.

The fault lies with the government. We need to find a way to stop governments engaging in social re-engineering and deliberate suppression. The welfare system is flawed and needs restructure, but it should be restructured fairly and respectfully - ensuring that those who strive and contribute well to society enjoy rewards and those with GENUINE needs are supported adequately, but those who can do better for themselves are both strongly incentivised and well supported to do so.

Sadly, the shallow and dull in our society cannot think past ''they have some money, they should be forced to spend it'', and the strugglers can't get past green-eyed envy. If we had more intelligent folk examining the real effects of dumb policies and seeing past the dishonest or incompetent claims of national savings, we might be in a position to compel our politicians to perform better and put the national interest first.
Old Geezer
12th Jul 2017
3:09pm
Thankfully the government did the right thing and changes the asset test as these people should never had been given the OAP in the first place. I was however disgusted with them giving them back their concessions. Hopefully that will soon be rectified with concessions only available for those on the full OAP as it was wrong to change that in the first place too. I'd like to see any OAP paid become a debt on one's estate as well as many OAPs now live in million dollar plus homes.
Rae
12th Jul 2017
3:26pm
If that was the case OG why would anyone buy a home or save. You'd just spend all your money living the high life surely?

I'm disgusted that only PAYG workers are forced into super and business people don't have to save that 9% of pay at all.

A lot of very high income earners get full pension because they can organise their affairs to do so.
Old Geezer
12th Jul 2017
3:34pm
I can't understand why anyone would organise their affairs just to get the OAP as the cost of doing so would limit you for the rest of your life. Yet I too know many who do.

Super also has just about had it's day and if you don't have your own SMSF then fees and insurances eat it up very quickly with the sorts of low returns most get now. Too many layers of people getting paid before the scraps if any go into a person's super fund.
Rainey
13th Jul 2017
3:25pm
OG, your comments reflect a serious lack of intelligence and comprehension, sadly. Such a shallow attitude to rant that the government should take benefits away because ''these people shouldn't have had them in the first place''! Can you not understand that the cost of pensions will skyrocket because of that stupid policy change? Are you so dense that you don't get that affected retirees are now better off taking a luxury cruise and reducing their assets? Do you not understand that we need to maintain incentives that encourage responsible lifestyles and planning for retirement? Hurting those who strive is counter-productive. It will merely make economic conditions worse overall.

It's dumb to make someone worse off in income terms for having saved. It will discourage saving. And to suggest that pensions should be repaid out of estates is not just cruel and unfair (since the rich keep their excessively-generous concessions), but economically irresponsible - because it will discourage saving and responsible living and therefore increase the cost of welfare.

As for suggesting battling retirees should forfeit their estate as repayment of a pension because a handful of greedy pigs are living in million-dollar+ homes and drawing pensions.... what a vile and disgusting attitude! What of the hundreds of thousands who worked hard all their lives to own a very modest home? Why should they be denied the right to bequeath their home to their children while the rich claim massive tax concessions, exploit the disadvantaged as cheap labour, use every loophole to avoid paying any tax at all, and give nothing back? Why should the children of the working and lower middle class be denied a leg up through a modest inheritance while the children of the rich inherit a fortune? The result will be greater inequity - which is now recognized widely as a major social and economic problem - and growing poverty with its accompanying increase in health costs, disability, crime, abuse, addiction, mental illness, etc.

Meanness and jealousy seems to be driving most of your comments, OG. And attitudes like yours are destroying what used to be a great country.
Old Geezer
14th Jul 2017
5:45pm
Rainey none of your false arguments will make the government change it's mind so you can get the OAP. You are beginning to sound like a scratched broken record that has been well over played.
Rainey
15th Jul 2017
12:50pm
My arguments are not false, OG. They are common sense. And I don't want an OAP. I am concerned for the future taxpayers of this nation who are going to cop massively increased costs for welfare because of the stupidity and arrogance of politicians and people like you. It's you who is sounding like a scratched broken record with your nasty, cruel and dumb insistence that people who save should suffer deprivation of everything they worked for.
jackyd
11th Jul 2017
5:40pm
Politics aside, it must be considered a casing point that when domestic energy cost increase by 20% and commercial energy cost put businesses out of business, then progress moves to decline.
The big end of town, big government, big bureaucracy are screwing us all but it is small business that employs.
Cheep reliable 24/7 base load energy is the catalyst to production, competition , wealth creation and employment and now that has been taken away from us mainly due to an over dramatization of the climate change rhetoric and with what many now are declaring a hoax.
We are fools in our own paradise.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
5:50pm
Now all we need is cheap batteries so we can once again control our own power instead of paying for it. Base load will then be in the hands of the consumer not the power companies.

Climate change is real and has happened since the world came into being. Without it none of us would be alive today.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
5:53pm
Water will be next so your tanks will come in handy indeed.
jackyd
11th Jul 2017
7:41pm
Such optimism old G.
What ever happened to the concept of a plan and the transition to a plan. Fact is there is no plan hence energy costs are out of control.
What is your knowledge of batteries that the rest of us don't know?
Natural climate change is not the issue you would be simple minded antagonist to suggest so.
Rae
12th Jul 2017
8:52am
Yes cheaper and more efficient batteries are coming. And yes OG I do believe the NSW government will have plans to sell off the water resources. Criminals the lot of them in my opinion.

They have been quietly separating the water resources from the councils after appointing administrators and sacking elected officials.

It is purely about selling public owned lands, halls and of course the water corporations they have been quietly creating.

They will need the books to look good so water prices will rise.

Once it is all gone then we will be a third world country finally.
Old Fella
11th Jul 2017
5:56pm
There is no benefit to anyone in inventing stories like "Australians are getting poorer". I do accept in good faith that this story has substance and necessary qualification of proof. I do believe different Government policy and direction are essential to maintain an Australian standard that compares to world best standards. I would observe that there has been a global political reaction ( USA, France, Canada, Great Britton and many others) against incumbent Government and Government practices. The claims made of Australia ring commonly true with many countries Internationally. I will be considering long and hard about which politics will best meet my expectations and hopes for myself and my country at the next State and Federal elections. I currently believe consecutive past and current Australian Government have failed to provide good Government and hope better outcomes can be achieved .
Rae
11th Jul 2017
6:01pm
Very sensible and worthy comment. Thank you.
Old Fella
11th Jul 2017
5:56pm
There is no benefit to anyone in inventing stories like "Australians are getting poorer". I do accept in good faith that this story has substance and necessary qualification of proof. I do believe different Government policy and direction are essential to maintain an Australian standard that compares to world best standards. I would observe that there has been a global political reaction ( USA, France, Canada, Great Britton and many others) against incumbent Government and Government practices. The claims made of Australia ring commonly true with many countries Internationally. I will be considering long and hard about which politics will best meet my expectations and hopes for myself and my country at the next State and Federal elections. I currently believe consecutive past and current Australian Government have failed to provide good Government and hope better outcomes can be achieved .
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
7:07pm
Good luck with that as I haven't been able to find anyone to vote for for decades now.
floss
11th Jul 2017
6:17pm
Old Geezer your 5.50pm comment was a first for you ,it actually made sense.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
7:06pm
Pity as all my comments made sense and it is just people have their own agenda to pedal so discredit them.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
7:09pm
Unfortunately - they don't when stacked up against reality, OG... but occasionally a glimmer shows through before being drowned in the flood of empty rhetoric...
jackyd
11th Jul 2017
7:52pm
And how are your energy costs going floss or are you just sitting there freezing at night like so many people already are.
Check the number or hardship payments and increasing disconnections occurring. Happy that you are isolated from that.
TREBOR
12th Jul 2017
12:55am
" their own agenda to pedal"

That kinda reminds me of the late 'Hurricane' Carter - when he was threatened by a judge with contempt of court while seeking yet another review of his three consecutive life sentences - he replied :- "Yes, your honour - I DO hold this court in contempt!"

Funny thing is he was finally released when the judge said that it was on a technicality - and that technicality was the United States Constitution.....

So wadda ya gonna do? STARVE 'em? Send in the Cossacks? Take away their job opportunities? Put 'em on part-time casual with lower Sunday penalties? Tell 'em that unless they seek ten non-existent jobs a week they won't even get money for a half loaf of bread a day? Take away their lounge chair because they've got too many assets on pension? Make sure they never leave the country and constitute a hazard to security by traveling overseas on sixpence?

I ask again, OG - what the hell is wrong with you?
TREBOR
12th Jul 2017
12:56am
ALL that has already been done.. what more do you want... gas chambers?
Old Geezer
12th Jul 2017
11:34am
Some people would be better off going into those gas chambers as the alternative is very bleak indeed.
Rainey
17th Jul 2017
2:10am
Wouldn't you and your rich mates just love to see the poor gassed, and thus eliminated from society, OG? Sadly, you are all too self-absorbed to think about what society would be without the poor who are willing to do your dirty work for peanuts!
AutumnOz
11th Jul 2017
6:42pm
We should be alarmed by the decrease in disposable income.
The government is certainly responsible for the increased charges, now doubled, to the people who need to use community transport for medical appointments. Although the transport service is very good and efficient there are times when hold ups occur which cannot be avoided resulting in leaving people stranded after their medical appointment, then the person needs to buy something to eat and drink which is an unforeseen expense for the person which can cause financial difficulty for that week.
In my opinion Big Business has already cut its expenses to the bone and it is the small businesses that need help from the government. Small businesses employ more people than most of the major stores in regional areas, perhaps Big Business employes morein large cities like Sydney and Melbourne.
As for all the comments I've seen about people seen drinking coffee "proving" there is no financial problems - it is a load of rubbish unless you can prove they are the same people every day, many people do pass by coffee shops and may go in to sit with a friend for a bit of company or to let someone know they are OK.
In our town this happens quite frequently and the liquid in the coffee cup is water - not that any of the sceptics on this forum will believe it.
Old Geezer
11th Jul 2017
7:04pm
If I have to go into a coffee shop then I order a cup of hot so I can believe people only have water in their coffee cups.
TREBOR
11th Jul 2017
7:16pm
Aye - when we were young we were so poor our middle names were all mortgaged to the bank.... an old mate's grandma lacked the funds to give them bacon so they got to lick the pig as it ran past... and a cup of hot water on the front porch never hurt nobody....

I read a series of Japanese medieval stories once, and a visiting lower rank samurai received the hospitality of the house with a cup of tea - his courtesy forbad that he say he knew it was made from a few twigs since the family could afford nothing else, and he commented on how good it was... and no - he would not stay for the night and eat with them... he had far to go (to his next tree to sleep under without dinner)....

Now that's poor.... as poor as Angela's Ashes where the kids drank sugar water for lack of milk.. when reading Angela's Ashes I was struck very hard by the way a society will treat those with the least... as a descendant of the High Kings of Ireland, I was roused to anger that the poor should be treated so badly and with such contempt by their own people. Same applies here..... they may be poor - but they're OUR poor!
Dot
11th Jul 2017
7:24pm
Not surprising that Australians are getting poorer. Between all levels of Governments, foreign ownerships, multi nationalist and the millions of human termites that keep infesting this country, yes we are paying for these free loaders dearly.
*Loloften*
13th Jul 2017
1:03am
A few yrs ago a wealthy friend of mine stated & I quote...."you're not really wealthy 'til you pay no tax, apart from most GST now thx to Howard!!" He didn't back then & very little now as the majority of his investments are tax deductible. Most of my non-wealthy friends haven't had a pay increase for past 2 yrs.....the rich are richer, middle & low earners poorer. Thx for nothing Abbott & Turnbull.
Old Geezer
13th Jul 2017
10:45am
I can agree with that.
Rainey
13th Jul 2017
3:01pm
Contradicting yourself, OG!

Sadly, Loloften, your friend is correct and your comment is spot on.
ex PS
13th Jul 2017
9:07am
How many people who are calling themselves disadvantaged financially have the latest I-phone that they update every couple of years, have the latest large screen digital TV or two at home and go away for holidays every year?
If we are looking at disposable income as income left after paying the bills and we are including Credit Card, personal loans and Hire Purchase debt in the bill part of the equation which have been used to service unessential debt, we are getting a false figure.
Yes we have genuine people on low wages or under-employment that are really suffering, but I wonder how many are suffering because they spend money they can't afford on things that they want rather than need?
Things are tough for many people, but when things get tough you need to tighten your belt and wait for non essentials until things get better.
Old Geezer
13th Jul 2017
10:44am
PS even my taxable income puts me in the disadvantaged category as would the taxable income of many self funded retirees as a lot of their income can be tax free over the age of 60.
Rainey
17th Jul 2017
1:56am
Of course, OG. Like most rich, you reduce your ''taxable income'' with a host of legal deductions (and probably a few ''grey'' ones as well!) We all know what the wealthy do to dodge their obligations. But that doesn't mean they aren't wealthy. This ''disadvantaged'' crap is just a monster lie. Goodness, even Malcolm Turnbull claims to have had a ''disadvantaged childhood'', despite being the son of a millionaire and inheriting many millions. It's really SICK how the well-off lie to justify their greed and selfishness.
seagirl
13th Jul 2017
6:15pm
I think the pension are getting poorer and i don't see anyone doing anythink about iT, not even when its a election year
musicveg
15th Jul 2017
10:17pm
As long as big corporations don't pay tax to Australia, we will get poorer. Too many tax loops for those reaping Australian resources. Check out Michaelwest.com.au
musicveg
15th Jul 2017
10:17pm
As long as big corporations don't pay tax to Australia, we will get poorer. Too many tax loops for those reaping Australian resources. Check out Michaelwest.com.au
Rainey
17th Jul 2017
2:33am
Goodness, OG talks a lot of rot! Has anyone else noted the wild contradictions? The world is rosy and everyone is affluent and things couldn't be better (according to his warped view) BUT he can't find anyone worth voting for (hasn't for a long time!); unit prices in Brisbane haven't risen since 2005; there are seasons and places when/where he apparently thinks I travel where people are forced to live in hardship in caravans because they can't afford a home; and things are so bad that many would be better off being gassed to death than living on. Gosh! Doesn't sound to me like the wonderful affluent world he claims to live in!!!!
AutumnOz
17th Jul 2017
7:43am
Most of us have noticed the contradictions Rainey.
OG has become so repetitive and boring that it is a waste of our time to reply to his wild assertions. His ignorance of important matters is quite remarkable.


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