Friday Flash Poll: Solving Australia’s energy cost crisis

Tell us what you really think about Australia’s energy dilemma.

hand pointing at power meter

The debate around climate change, renewable versus coal energy and soaring power prices has been the undoing of some Australian prime ministers in recent years. As the nation heads to another election within months, these thorny issues are once again likely to take centre stage.

During the past 10 years, Aussies have seen their power bills soar by around 35 per cent. Prime Minister Scott Morrison blames the electricity generators and is threatening them with a ‘big stick’.

Yesterday’s release of the Labor Party’s energy policy took a wider view of the problem. It acknowledged that the chopping and changing of energy policy under successive leaders has removed incentives for new power generation to be built.

As a result, when some of the nation’s ageing coal-fired power stations were shut down, the electricity market responded with higher wholesale prices, which eventually trickled down to you – the consumer.

Energy Minister Angus Taylor’s response this week to high power prices was to flag the introduction of legislation to force asset sales of electricity suppliers who “don’t act responsibly” and to partially regulate prices. This backflip from free market policies into an era of government intervention had some in corporate Australia warning that the sector could be starved of new investment, as investors chase returns in areas with less government intervention.

Other voices champion a return to the old days of publicly owned utilities that did not put profits and dividends for investors ahead of customer needs. But have the nation’s remaining government-owned power companies delivered better value?

In NSW, where some generators are still in the public’s hands, the average price for electricity is 33.1118c/kWh, compared with Victoria, whose electricity assets are all privatised, where the average price is 28.2461c/kWh, according to Canstar.

The Greens have recently advocated for a publicly owned power company that would slash electricity bills to an average $600 a year, citing that state governments made $3 billion in the past year from energy. They also claimed AGL and Origin made a net profit of $7.2 billion in the past four years.

It’s difficult to know who to believe when it comes to the blame shifting for our rising power bills.

Hopefully, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) will be able to shed some light on this with its recently announced decision to monitor power prices for the next seven years. It will report every six months on how bills are tracking in the ACT and all states except Western Australia, where the state government runs the power supply.

“If we find problems in the market that aren't being fixed by existing policy tools, we will be making recommendations to government on what extra changes are needed,” according to ACCC chief Rod Sims, who admitted last month that even he struggled to understand which power plans would deliver the best value for money.

And in another measure being promoted by Mr Taylor, pressure will be put on energy companies to scrap standing offers by the start of next year, otherwise the Government will introduce a default market price.

These strategies are all well and good, but again, are those in government making decisions based on being elected, rather than what the people want, or what is best for our future beyond financial consequences?

So, we’re asking you about your thoughts on Australia’s energy dilemma.

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And of course, please feel free to make comments or add to the conversation below.





    COMMENTS

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    Bruce
    23rd Nov 2018
    11:33am
    Rooftop solar for houses works. For those that have it. Saves heaps. But the subsidies cost the non solar ppl heaps too. So the reality is. The non solars pay for those smart enough to install it.
    danielboonjp
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:40pm
    I feel it's better to add in your comment that the coal industry receives far more in subsidies than renewable energy ... coal mining companies pay little for the coal (that actually belongs to the Indigenous), pay nothing for water, pay nothing when pumping toxic particulates into the atmosphere ...
    lasaboy
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:41pm
    not those smart enough those with the money, when I got sick I was forced by the system to spend all I had BEFORE I could get government assistance, so suddenly I was broke and had no savings left, buying solar panels was suddenly outside my means and resources, so the system screwed me to the wall
    HarrysOpinion
    23rd Nov 2018
    4:04pm
    danielboonjp "(that actually belongs to the Indigenous)"
    What do you mean by " it belongs to them"? Did they create the coal?
    Anonymous
    23rd Nov 2018
    4:30pm
    daniel said "I feel it's better to add in your comment that the coal industry receives far more in subsidies than renewable energy"

    You've fallen for the recent leftie warmster mangling of the language in order to push their globalist agenda using the 'climatechange®' scam as a lever.
    Calling tax breaks subsidies is aimed at making EXPENSIVE renewables look not so expensive.
    TOTAL SPIN!

    FYI: Tax breaks are NOT subsidies. Subsidies are HANDOUTS like those paid to renewables rent seekers!

    Often times when the wind blows too hard, they're even paid NOT to generate power!!!

    For example in 2016 mining companies paid at least HALF their profits in tax. A tiny refund on that could not possible be classed as a subsidy, unless you're a rabid Orwellian leftie indoctrinated by 'climatechange®' lies.

    How much did the renewables parasites pay??
    Couldabeen
    23rd Nov 2018
    8:51pm
    danielboonjp, where do you get those ideas from? Please itemize all of those subsidies that the coal mines and coal power stations receive?
    All of the power stations in Australia pay market or contract rates for their coal. Or mine it themselves and pay appropriate Royalties to the State Governments. All have to pay for their water as would any other industrial user at similar rates.
    Please itemize the toxic particulates that are being pumped out by those power stations. Quantity and specific toxicity would also be appreciated.
    As there were no common indigenous groups, there are no rights held by those groups to buried minerals. Where tribal ownership has been identified and claimed, those tribes to receive compensation payments as would any other owner of the land concerned for mineral extraction.
    In Queensland we will have a wind farm with over 160 turbines where the operators will be paid $200,000 per turbine per year by the State Government for the life of the farm. This is whether it produces plated output or draws kilowatts of power for extended periods.
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    12:55am
    What's wrong with Coal -The Deity - is the way in which Coal is handled in the national and international economies.....

    Nationally it devastates farming land and generates little to zero real revenue and benefit for the producing nations ... internationally it is pure exploitation for the benefit of those 'on the inside'... with zero benefit for anyone else...

    That is the essence of our current economic 'system'...
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    1:28pm
    82% of power subsidies goes to coal

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_Australia
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    2:27pm
    Coal mining pays 12% company tax - nowhere near 30% ...

    http://www.tai.org.au/sites/default/files/Coal%20fact%20sheet%20FINAL.pdf
    Anonymous
    24th Nov 2018
    2:29pm
    Ignoramus
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    2:30pm
    Alternative energy sources such as wind, solar etc - are in the startup phase - where costs are highest...... they are beginning to level out as we speak..... in the future the cost (not the price!!) of alternatives will be lower than coal, including the clean-up costs (LMAO - been through a number of mining districts with mountains of tailings) - so these will soon become a BONUS to companies and shareholders, with far lower operating costs and thus higher returns etc.

    Let's stick to realities.
    BDW
    23rd Nov 2018
    11:41am
    My view on coal is slightly different from most discussions I've seen. I think it's madness for us to invest in new coal fired stations here in Australia. However I believe we should continue to supply coal to cover the existing demand both here & overseas until it can be phased out. The existing coal fired stations all around the world will need to stay in operation until alternatives come online & as such in the interim we may as well benefit. There probably needs to be a timeline on this so that all industries effected can plan ahead for the transition from coal to renewables. Whether you believe in climate change or not we should try to reduce our impact on the planet & stop spewing crap into the atmosphere if there are alternatives at similar or reduced prices. From what I read the cost of power from solar & wind are now on par with coal for $/mW.
    danielboonjp
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:42pm
    if I owned a smoky old diesel car two doors down, and the fumes wafted into your home, would you be happy with that? I think not; your comment is not rational
    BDW
    23rd Nov 2018
    3:38pm
    Not rational to expect the coal fired stations to be shut down with the snap of your fingers Mr Boon!
    Anonymous
    23rd Nov 2018
    6:55pm
    "we should try to reduce our impact on the planet"

    FYI: 97.6% of CO2 emissions come from MOTHER NATURE. Look up "carbon cycle" in Google.
    Colourless, odourless trace gas, plant food CO2 is NOT a pollutant.!

    Anything humanity does to reduce their TINY 2.4% of total CO2 emissions would, by definition, be FUTILE in reducing net global emissions!

    This "globalwarming®" scam is a UN scheme to redistribute global wealth and to install an unelected, undemocratic, autocratic global government.

    Imaginary "globalwarming®" doesn't scare me in the slightest, but an autocratic, unelected global govt TERRIFIES ME!

    Australia is writing a national suicide note by sticking with the Paris crap, and for no discernible benefit!
    Industries will flee Australia's world beating HIGHEST electricity prices once we get a significant percentage of EXORBITANTLY PRICED renewables in our energy mix.

    Why has no-one done a cost-benfit analysis on this "CO2-devil-gas" insanity?

    QUOTE: Climate scientist Lindzen:
    "It will be remembered as the greatest mass delusion in history that CO2 was considered to be a deadly poison"
    maxchugg
    25th Nov 2018
    9:23am
    LUVCO2, don't overlook the Petition Project, signed by 31487 highly qualified and reputable scientists:

    "We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals. The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.

    There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth."

    This is never promoted, conversely we never stop hearing about the other bogus stunt where 10257 questionnaires were sent out seeking support for the theory of anthropogenic global warming, 3146 were returned, and a sample of 79 of those answers which would predominantly supportive found, surprise, surprise, over 90% were supportive.

    What is interesting is that the scientific process of sampling was totally corrupted when a heavily biased population of responses was sampled. This is further comment upon the integrity of those who continue to promote the former global warming, now re-named climate change scam and how they continue to prostitute science to support their long term objectives which include an annual $22 billion in funding from the United States government, plus billions more from other gullible governments, ours included.
    Dabbydoos
    23rd Nov 2018
    11:46am
    Had solar panels installed and did not realise for some time they weren't working. Had to pay for a new transformer, wiped out any rebates I might have had. Need to trust your installer. I was nieive.
    danielboonjp
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:45pm
    it's obviously not good to not have the system working; however, you would have paid a price less the rebate ... Did you not check the inverter to see what power was being generated?
    Pratski
    23rd Nov 2018
    11:49am
    We need to just use less power - less air con less tv less appliances - better designed and insulated houses. The power wasted in commercial buildings like your average shopping mall is so much higher than it needs to be due to bad design of the buildings - No natural light or ventilation. I once worked in a brand new building (retail) the first thing they did was to paint all the windows black so we had to have the lights on all day.
    BDW
    23rd Nov 2018
    11:52am
    I had similar experiences in industry with regard to natural light being excluded as a option ... FRUSTRATING!
    danielboonjp
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:47pm
    spot on ... energy efficient house design would more than halve an electricity bill; however, the Building Code of Australia 'energy rating system' is total rubbish
    Merlot
    23rd Nov 2018
    1:15pm
    Fully agree regarding shopping centres and why oh why is the airconditioning on so high - most centres are freezing - not good to browse shop let alone try on clothing - brrrrrrr!
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    1:31pm
    All new houses have standards to meet as regards insulation etc. We (the ex and I) built a timber (ironbark!) and earth block house, and its handling of heat and cold is magnificent. Her nephew built a house and it is markedly 20 deg cooler in hot weather without air con.

    It can be done with work and commitment.
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    1:32pm
    Merlot - not to mention the music - chills me to the bone... just toured Tassie and some historical joints have music.... muzak... (gags) ... I prefer solemn silence...
    Chat
    23rd Nov 2018
    11:56am
    I think people themselves have to take more responsibility for the way they use electricity. The "savings" being suggested by the political parties, when offering rebates etc., are always way in excess of what our entire electricity bill is so I have to wonder what some people do to incur such huge bills.
    Troubadour
    23rd Nov 2018
    5:00pm
    Like the house next door to us - have the reverse cycle air con on
    most of the time (winter/summer) even when the days are warmer (in Winter) and cooler (Summer) - it makes a noise so we know it is on - even
    when ours is not. I do think some people put them on thoughtlessly or
    have more money than sense!!
    dstark
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:02pm
    Analysis of rocks and ice cores show that climate has been changing more than since mankind evolved - so humans have not caused climate change. Carbon dioxide in the atmosphere rose sharply from 1965 to 2000, and since then has virtually plateaued, yet since 2000 mankind has burnt more coal than in all time before 2000. The increased CO2 comes from the oceans that cannot keep dissolved within them as much gas as the oceans warm - due to Earth's changing proximity tot the sun, and to the Sun's varying emissions of heat.
    I wish politicians would learn some science, and stop just accepting the scare-mongering of supposed climate scientists, who really just want more funds to further tweak their flawed models.
    danielboonjp
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:48pm
    your comment/s lack any credibility
    Fliss
    23rd Nov 2018
    1:04pm
    I tend to agree with a lot of what you have said dstark.
    johnno
    23rd Nov 2018
    2:10pm
    Read the evidence!!
    BDW
    23rd Nov 2018
    3:40pm
    Whether you believe in global warming / climate change or not should we really be polluting our own nest?
    Lookfar
    23rd Nov 2018
    7:57pm
    dstark, 'the climate is always changing' is part of the multibillionaire spiel, it ignores a look at what is the climate changing to, now that we know we are changing it.
    60 million yeasr ago an amaxing change occurred in simple bacteria, - because they set up a dual magnetic field with just 2 atoms of iron, and spun them, they could change methane and ammonia to oxygen. This was a positive change, and something of a miracle, - they call it a 'quantum effect' these days, but it made the Earth inhabitable for us humans, Hooray, but if we keep throwing all the carbon dioxide that was buried in the earth at that time back into the atmosphere, we may make the earth uninhabitable for us humans again, - look at Venus, 98% of the atmosphere carbon dioxide, temperatures of 400 degrees plus, no water, no oxygen, no discoverable life, - that is an 'always changing' we need to prevent the .01% foisting upon us for their last bit of greed till we all die. - let's change it in the right direction, not just lie down to get run-over, - don't dig up any more coal, sequester the carbon in the soil where it is lacking and will revive the soil, don't get fooled with the argument the world is always changing, we are always breathing, - what does that imply? by itself neither of those arguments have meaning, although true, perhaps "always changing so we can be always breathing" might be sensible, now that it is up to us.
    Keithb
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:05pm
    I think we need to move to renewables ASAP, and change the system to accomodate this and provide fair return to all . e.g. use domestic batteries for peak power needs on the grid. Phase out coal as renewables pick up. The government must get behind this with coherent policy. Then we might get lower power prices which we can live with rather than fossil fuels which will destroyi our future.. Liberals are completely irresponsible in denying this.
    danielboonjp
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:51pm
    Labor are equally irresponsible ...
    Both use environmental issues to stop bleeding votes to Greens.
    Shorten has received money from Adani 7 times that is common knowledge
    PerthSV
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:17pm
    I was lucky to install a solar panel system when the government paid subsidies to encourage people to adopt them. I paid for the system in 3 years and have enjoyed free electricity since. Mind you, I am very frugal with energy using energy efficient methods.
    When my rebates expire in 3 years time I will probably upgrade the panels, buy a battery and go off grid. I have no intention on paying for the extreme profits demanded by private utilities that were once owned by the people.
    Australia has the highest uptake of privately installed solar panels even though most state governments do not subsidise tariffs any more. These systems which feed back into the grid have meant that local governments have been able to reduce upgrading or building new power stations. Subsidies work in both directions. Could you imagine what would happen if all solar panel owners decided to switch off their systems mid-summer?
    maxchugg
    26th Nov 2018
    10:22am
    Good luck with that plan!

    I was contacted by a seller of batteries,told him my current costs for electricity, then asked him to explain how a battery costing $10,000 plus (I forget the actual figure) with an anticipated life span of around 15 years could save me money. He was forced to agree that the battery would not be viable.

    But batteries will become cheaper and then viable, you might think. Cynical me thinks that if this happens the power companies either go out of business or persuade governments to pass legislation which says that, like water and sewerage, if a power line passes your property you pay for distribution costs even if you are not connected.

    Sorry, you can't win.
    KB
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:36pm
    I would lie to see l landlords be given a tax deduction as an incentive to install solar panels or buy battery power. This would be a win for landlords renters and the environment
    danielboonjp
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:52pm
    they can.
    they get the rebate, they claim the GST back, they can claim depreciation for up to 20 years
    Fliss
    23rd Nov 2018
    1:56pm
    Fabulous idea KB.
    But danielboonjp, yes they can get the rebate but that is it.
    Depreciation . . .well, it's a small tax deduction each year.
    And claiming back the GST - nope, only if they purchased a new property & registered for GST. The majority of property owners are not.
    Your suggestion KB, of an incentive is a great idea.
    Troubadour
    23rd Nov 2018
    5:02pm
    Yes I wish our land-lord would install solar panels - they should be a gicen
    in all homes now
    danielboonjp
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:36pm
    neither Labor LNP are qualified or interested in renewable energy; they just use the environment to stop losing votes to the Greens
    Couldabeen
    23rd Nov 2018
    9:10pm
    In real terms, renewable energy is not of benefit to Australia and Australians. Remember that solar only works for 30% of each day (usually) and wind only works 30% of the time (partly predicable). The hydro in both Tasmania and the Snowy Mountains have all reached points of being turned off due to water shortages.
    Any energy policies that have been presented by The Greens would be devastating to industries, employment and quality of life to all across Australia.
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    4:50pm
    .. but renewable plus adequate storage does work....
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    4:51pm
    .. someone here suggested batteries in every home - charging while the sun shines etc - then run for the rest. Our neighbours have two batteries that are sufficient to run their house virtually all day and night on their solar system.
    travelman
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:46pm
    Our energy system is a basket case brought about an incompetent an inept government and they have been so for the last almost six years. They just do not know what to do but fuss around with all sorts of stupid ideas and legislation. The fact is our energy problems and our carbon emissions are essentially one problem. They cannot seem to see that but in the faint remoteness they do see that then the solution is obvious but perhaps they do not have the intelligence or courage to apply the solution. What is that solution? It is beyond any doubt that renewables are the answer - the only answer but this government has failed to apply the answer and will continue to fail to do so. As a child in England during the 1950's to 1960's I experienced the problems associated with energy provided by coal fired power stations. During Autumn and winter we suffered such pollution in our atmosphere that it became a serious health hazard by its toxicity. Also, its thick blanket of putrid fog covering towns and cities made it very dangerous to drivers because vision was down to a feet ahead and would remain so for a part of the day. Industries would be in chaos through workers being late or not arriving at all. Traffic unable to move or be jammed up because of accidents and many other problems until the 'smog' (as it was called) lifted.

    If this current government had tackled the problem in the first two years of office and applied the solution - renewables, we would not have the problem today. It seems to me that this government will only do something that is important only when they are dragged 'kicking and screaming' by the opposition party, Labour, and an angry public.


    I have solar panels but no batteries and now I see my energy bill almost nil cost; a lot different when the last energy bill before the solar panels was $945. Now who would want coal fired energy when it is so obvious that renewables are the answer. As for the coal industry and coal fired power stations we should leave the coal in the ground (except for export) and close every coal fired power station down but leave one gas fired power station in every State connected to a national grid to meet any emergencies. As for the increased costs to customers by the current energy suppliers this is only because of their greed for profits. In every business I have known if demand for a product slows down a business will lower retail prices and be more competitive to get their sales higher. We the people should never be held to ransom by these 'petty' criminals or by a backward and lazy government. Come on Labour you at least are showing how better you are than the present 'misfits'.
    danielboonjp
    23rd Nov 2018
    12:56pm
    liked your story, but Labor has no renewable energy policies, they just use the Greens, and have said they will preference LNP before the Greens
    GFW
    23rd Nov 2018
    1:06pm
    WE have a 5.5kw PV panel system with battery back-up which cost $6500.00 2 years ago, we also modified all lighting to LED. We only use lights in occupied rooms and have high efficiency appliances. The result is we are in credit with our power bills to the point where our gas bill is over 50% covered.
    Our power retailers is the newly formed company DC Power which is effectively a co-operative of power users not a large multi national 'for profit' company.
    Rae
    23rd Nov 2018
    1:07pm
    Privatisation stuffed the GRID. So no there isn't much we can do unless cheap loans and subsidies and cheaper panels and batteries allow us to provide our own power.

    I'm not holding my breath because the Government has only ever given me that $900 in the GFC. Nothing else. Just took and took and took high taxes and the banks took high interest.
    Old Geezer
    23rd Nov 2018
    1:35pm
    My mind just boggles even thinking about the costs of all Labor's promises. If they can afford 10% of what they have promised I'd be surprised.

    Folks the lollies are going to be very sour if people are foolish enough to vote Labor in as it's going to be a completely different set of policies if they do.

    Who in their right mind would vote in a party that expects us to use expensive renewals while backing the likes of Adani to export to the rest of the world so they can have cheap power?
    Lookfar
    23rd Nov 2018
    8:33pm
    O.G. you are as usual off the wall in arguing that renewable is expensive, - it is destroying the coal and Nuclear industry in America, despite frump, besides you were telling us all to go solar a few months ago, have your masters changed your tune? - but you are right that Labour is trying to walk too clever for it's own good, - Australian Coal workers are a tiny minority, coal mining is very highly automated these days, but they are destroying the lives of Australian farmers and Tourism workers, many thousand of times more workers and families and towns.
    But Shorten is abysmally wrong to support Adani, it is very simple to see his mistake. When we in Australia emit carbon dioxide it is taken up by the winds and mixed with the emissions of all other countries and then this carbon dioxide comes back to Australia and wipes out agriculture, the reef, forests by fire etc. - this will keep getting worse, our country wil get dryer and dryer, - if we export coal it will be burnt and that carbon dioxide will come back to bite us what ever high flown words we might utter. - Shorten might be not in the pockets of the multinationals as much as is the Liberal party, but he still is in those pockets, getting as much as he can.
    The labour party needs to divest themselves of that corruption, it is going no where.
    Couldabeen
    23rd Nov 2018
    9:27pm
    In reply to Lookfar. Carbon dioxide is not a dangerous pollutant. It is an essential trace gas in the atmosphere. Atmospheric gases do not quickly mix across the hemispheres. Anything released at more than 35 degrees of Latitude can take years to mix beyond that line.
    CO2 comprises around 0.0035% of the atmosphere. Australia contributes around 1.5% of this. In otherwords 0.00015% of atmospheric content. It does not poison farm land or oceans. Anticipated increases in CO2 levels will have a greater effect in increasing the growth rates of crops and natural vegetations (including the ocean phytoplankton).
    Please confirm the farmers who have had their lives destroyed by coal mining and any jobs lost in the tourism sector. Greeenpeace and WWF severely threatened the Australian tourism industry when they placed false posters on the London Underground implying that the Great Barrier Reef had suffered physical damage from climate change and directly from coal mining. No such damage has been found and they used photos of reefs around Indonesia and the Philipines.
    The only way that renewables have been able to compete with power from coal and nuclear power stations is because of subsidies of around $80kw.
    Hball
    23rd Nov 2018
    1:44pm
    I am unable to complete the survey as I have no faith in either Labor or LIberal let alone the two people heading these parties up. They are all out of touch with what is happening in the world and only say things to secure votes. I am curious about Solar and wind energy as they are dependent on the weather, hydroelectric has proven to be okay but what about wave technology which works 24/7 and is not as ugly as wind.
    Old Geezer
    23rd Nov 2018
    1:48pm
    I met a bloke a couple of weeks ago that was supplying turbines to be used in canals and under wharfs etc to produce electricity. He showed me how they worked and I was very impressed.
    Couldabeen
    23rd Nov 2018
    9:45pm
    Hball, solar only provides power for 30% of each and can be severely reduced with cloud cover (which can be continuous for periods of several days). In essence, to have your own solar system, during the day when the sun is full on, it must be producing approximately 5 times your immediate demand to charge your batteries for the other 16 hours with batteries that are basically 80% efficient in the charge/discharge cycle. And that's for only one day and night.
    Wind power can drop to zero and require power from the grid when the winds do not blow. Typically over an extended period of time, they return less than 30% of plated power. Basically, if we are to go the full renewable path, a storage of 100% of demand is required and if done with battery banks, the cost becomes extreme.
    Wave and tidal energy recovery systems have been explored many times around the world but rarely survive beyond a "proof of concept" stage. They have absorbed and washed away millions of dollars of tax payer funded experiments but have so far been unable to make the step into being long term reliable. Remember that with tidal systems there are four periods everyday in which their output drops to zero for periods of time where full backup is needed.

    23rd Nov 2018
    2:36pm
    What can one say about Shortens pissing $200million of taxpayer money down the drain
    Old Geezer
    23rd Nov 2018
    2:40pm
    And the billions more in the package.
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    1:01am
    Where was that? And $200 million is nothing compared to current revenue waste... keep generalising and being non-specific, Loathie and OG - you might succeed one day at Propaganda 101.

    Lay it all out pure and simple, with facts and figures.

    This nation is currently bleeding billions under the 'globalist' regime - which includes Labor.

    The LNP have pissed billions down the drain feeding businesses that give nothing back to this nation and its economy in any real sense... where is our result?

    But this is not a party issue - it is an issue of our style of 'government' - government for self and mates.
    ex PS
    28th Nov 2018
    8:35am
    How much money will the Lib/Nats waste on outdated technology subsidizing coal fired power stations? If my money is used to subsidize power I want it to be on clean energy, not systems that will get more and more expensive as the price of coal and gas increases. You may save $100.00 a year on your electricity bills, but the government will take twice that off you in taxes and reduction of services to pay for the power plants. Either way you lose more than you gain.

    No one has to convince me about the cost effectiveness of Solar, I have received a credit from my supplier for all but one year of the time I installed a modest 3 Kw system. My only regret was not installing a 5 Kw system at the time.
    shirboy
    23rd Nov 2018
    2:53pm
    My house was built in 1958 facing North & with WIDE eaves that perform beautifully in Winter allowing in the sun & in Summer blocking the hot sun. Also have ceiling insulation & a brick veneer house. Altogether a more climate comfortable home than my neighbours.
    Samk
    23rd Nov 2018
    2:55pm
    It is time for Australia to develop Thorium reactors to generate our electricity needs into the future. In the much longer term we should be investing research money into nuclear fusion. Solar and wind are only part of the solution. A longer term view is required and needs to start now.
    Captain
    23rd Nov 2018
    4:35pm
    Agree.
    Lookfar
    23rd Nov 2018
    8:40pm
    Nonsense, samk and captain, renewables end up a hundredth of the cost, and need no fuel, - the secret is Connected renewables all around Austalia, so never is power lacking.
    Anonymous
    23rd Nov 2018
    8:53pm
    Lookfar - that explains why renewables have to be so heavily subsidised .
    ROFLMAO
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    5:00pm
    You understand what is this difference between 'startup phase' and 'full production phase', Lothario?

    **Starts at 101 for ya**:- Startup Phase is the costly part of installing and organising the network etc..... that may well require some government subsidy - currently far less than coal on the figures I've produced elsewhere on this page... but that is by no means extravagant nor is it going to last past 'startup phase'.

    Now I'm not going to be so foolish as to suggest that means the power supply companies (private Mk I) will suddenly come to Jesus and offer lower prices for alternative produced energy - why let a great opportunity for continuing to charge the end user the relatively high costs of startup into eternity, and reap massive returns while pretending that the actual cost per unit is now way lower....??

    No 'business' except a responsible government running such a 'business' would entertain the idea of reducing prices to accommodate to lower production costs after startup.

    I've explained to you before that any responsible business plan would incorporate costs of startup and then full production across a span of 20-30 years - not just say that startup costs, the highest part of costings, is the yardstick by which prices will be set.

    Jeez some of you economic wizards are way behind the game here.... you don't have a grasp of basic business management - other than blatant rorting and theft under the 'rules'.... and gouging as much as possible out of a captive audience.

    23rd Nov 2018
    3:06pm
    Just read that Shortens energy plan will add $20 billion to our national debt
    And give us nothing back except costly energy and remedial action down the track
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    1:02am
    Chicken feed.... and nothing compared to future gains.... it's called 'investment in a future'.. not just 'investment in a mate's future'....
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    5:00pm
    Yo' godda list dere, Bro - or is you just talking spiders?
    4b2
    23rd Nov 2018
    3:06pm
    Why don't we invest in Nuclear power. We have the resources and the expertise but not the courage. We must be the only developed country without any Nuclear power generator in the country. About time we moved forward out of the dark age.
    Let our government focus on lower petrol pricing.
    pedro the swift
    23rd Nov 2018
    3:23pm
    Will our gov. solve our energy crisis? Not in your lifetime if ever. Australian governments have NEVER had enough foresight or ability to think past the next election or their perks. If any individual did have any sense they were soon howled down by vested interests. Maybe we need a one party system like China, in spite of their shortcomings in regard to freedoms they seem to have done very well for the people and country. Certainly more than our mob have done in the same time.
    As far as renewables go, its all very nice to have a solar panel on your roof(or office) but how will that allow you run your factory or business that uses Megawatts of power 24/7. And don't bother to talk about batteries, huge expense and short life. How long does your car battery last? and its not even supplying all the power for your car.
    How many batteries will it take to replace a 500Mwat coal/gas/nuclear power station. do the maths.
    Even SA's wonderful tesla batteries only last a very short time on load. I always smile about those who jump up and down spouting renewables(solar/wind/water) who don't seem to realise a modern country needs power 24/7. we need to build base load stations coal/gas or preferably nuclear to supply our energy needs for the future.
    BrianP
    23rd Nov 2018
    3:32pm
    As well as renewables including solar, wind and hydro, Nuclear Power should be sited in remote locations. Keep coal for now but make use of our huge uranium deposits while we build up renewable energy capability.

    Long term and well thought out planning required.
    Mel
    23rd Nov 2018
    3:41pm
    Volcanoes produce more pollution in one day that all civilisation does in one year! Scientists should be looking at ways to reduce this pollution, so that we can get back to living normal lives again with electricity made from coal
    Anonymous
    23rd Nov 2018
    3:43pm
    Don’t worry
    Bill will put a lid on volcanoes . Will be a solar panel with pink batt for insulation
    Sen.Cit.90
    23rd Nov 2018
    4:14pm
    Hi Mel,
    With all the blather above at last a comment that is factual. One can also add bushfires to the pollution equation.
    Lookfar
    23rd Nov 2018
    8:45pm
    Mel that is just propaganda, very few volcanoes in coal fields, last one a cuppla million years ago? Don't let the .01% pull the wool over your eyes, - they will give you Nothing.
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    5:06pm
    I'd be happy if Bill would put a lid on the feminist and other 'social (non)issue' volcanoes that are setting fair to hurl lava down on this nation via paying some more for belonging to a certain social group as ordained by their gender, thus destroying the entire basis of Labor's claim to be about 'equality' - equality my ass... as Shrek might say....

    Let's give women a handout for possibly missing out on some super somewhere in the past ... let's pay them super when they are taking time off for 'family reasons' ..... what about all those other people who've missed out on super for may reasons, such as periods of unemployment, sickness, carer responsibilities ... I mean... the list is endless - oh... why not just force everyone to pay into one super scheme at the same rate and receive the same amount in retirement... far easier....

    **rolls eyebrows** ... wait a minute... we used to have that .... it was called the Social Security Fund fully funded...... now called The Stolen Agglomeration ........

    Damn - how History has a way of biting politicians in the ass (as Shrek might say)...

    "You have the right to collect superannuation, Don-Kay! What you lack is the CAPACITY!"
    pjvixen
    23rd Nov 2018
    3:57pm
    Labor's new energy policy is ridiculous. It will cost us billions and will not provide reliable base load energy. If you look at your Certificate of Title, you will see that all minerals under your land belong to the Government. It does not belong to the indigenous. Coal miners pay their tax like everyone else - income tax, company taxm, payroll tax, petrol taxes, gst, etc. Wipe them out and you wipe out a great deal of tax income to the government of the time.
    Anonymous
    23rd Nov 2018
    4:00pm
    Hear hear pj!!!

    Labor will cut off everyone’s nose to win votes
    Old Geezer
    23rd Nov 2018
    4:02pm
    It was great when you owned the rights to those minerals under your house. I am glad I sold my property before they changed that as it would have been worth a lot less than I got for it.
    ex PS
    28th Nov 2018
    8:38am
    Isn't Labors new policy the Liberals old one. The same one that was lorded as the best thing since sliced bread by the Lib camp followers when it was their idea?
    pjvixen
    23rd Nov 2018
    4:01pm
    Coal industries and their many employees pay tax just like everyone else. Minerals under the ground are owned by the Government as you will see on the Certificate of Title to any land which is purchased. no matter who buys it. We need reliable base load power and is was demonstrated in South Australia,, renewables do not supply that. They had to get power from other States which use Coal Fired Power Stations.
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    5:09pm
    That's been done to death - some poles and wires collapsed.... move on... nothing to do here with alternatives in any way....
    Bot
    23rd Nov 2018
    4:09pm
    I've got a 2kw solar system and haven't payed a power bill for 10 years. On the top Vic rate of 66c a kw. But its not the power usage that costs the most its the supply charge that has to be kept under control.
    Joy Anne
    23rd Nov 2018
    4:29pm
    Our energy should be owned by Australians and public. Should never had been sold to the chinese. Our government is to blame for these prices. Also people onlt think of profit now and not people and service.
    Janus
    23rd Nov 2018
    4:36pm
    Nuclear
    Nuclear
    Nuclear
    Nuclear
    Nuclear
    Nuclear
    Nuclear

    It works, its clean its the only solution, but we are duped into thinking it is a problem. Show me the EVIDENCE of the problems, not just the propaganda and hearsay.
    Eddie
    28th Nov 2018
    8:49am
    Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
    micreen
    23rd Nov 2018
    4:53pm
    Interesting article and as usual we play follow the leader in Australia. Surely we have to get serious about more coal fired and nuclear power stations
    14,000 ABANDONED WIND TURBINES LITTER THE UNITED STATES





    The towering symbols of a fading religion, over 14,000 wind turbines, abandoned, rusting, slowly decaying. When it is time to clean up after a failed idea, no green environmentalists are to be found. Wind was free, natural, harnessing Earth’s bounty for the benefit of all mankind, sounded like a good idea. Wind turbines, like solar panels, break down. They produce less energy before they break down than the energy it took to make them. The wind does not blow all the time, or even most of the time. When it is not blowing, they require full-time backup from conventional power plants.
    Without government subsidy, they are unaffordable. With governments facing financial troubles, the subsidies are unaffordable. It was a nice dream, a very expensive dream, but it didn’t work.

    California had the “big three” of wind farm locations — Altamont Pass, Tehachapi, and San Gorgonio, considered the world’s best wind sites. California’s wind farms, almost 80% of the world’s wind generation capacity ceased to generate even more quickly than Kamaoa Wind Farm in Hawaii. There are five other abandoned wind farms in Hawaii. When they are abandoned, getting the turbines removed is a major problem. They are highly unsightly, and they are huge, and that’s a lot of material to get rid of.

    Unfortunately the same areas that are good for siting wind farms are a natural pass for migrating birds. Altamont’s turbines have been shut down four months out of every year for migrating birds after environmentalists filed suit. According to the Golden Gate Audubon Society 75-110 Golden Eagles, 380 Burrowing Owls, 300 Red-Tailed Hawks and 333 American Kestrels are killed by the turbines every year. An Alameda County Community Development Agency study points to 10,000 annual bird deaths from Altamont wind turbines. The Audubon Society makes up numbers like the EPA, but there’s a reason why they call them bird Cuisinarts.

    Palm Springs has enacted an ordinance requiring their removal from San Gorgonio Pass, but unless something else changes abandoned turbines will remain a rotting eyesores, or the taxpayers who have already paid through the nose for overpriced energy and crony-capitalist tax scams will have to foot the bill for their removal.

    President Obama’s offshore wind farms will be far more expensive than those sited in California’s ideal wind locations. Salt water is far more damaging than sun and rain, and offshore turbines don’t last as long. But nice tax scams for his crony-capitalist backers will work well as long as he can blame it all on saving the planet.

    “Environmentalists” wanted them put up – now “Environmentalists” want them pulled down!!!!
    Wind generators have a very limited life span (about 15 years I have heard). The entire energy used to manufacture them and dismantle them is probably greater than the electricity that they generated in their entire lifetime!!! They were never an option for base-load power for industry anyway! Still - they kept a lot people in employment while they were “flavour of the month”

    ........................................in China!!!


    Interesting article and as usual we play follow the leader in Australia. Surely we have to get serious about more coal fired and nuclear power stations
    14,000 ABANDONED WIND TURBINES LITTER THE UNITED STATES





    The towering symbols of a fading religion, over 14,000 wind turbines, abandoned, rusting, slowly decaying. When it is time to clean up after a failed idea, no green environmentalists are to be found. Wind was free, natural, harnessing Earth’s bounty for the benefit of all mankind, sounded like a good idea. Wind turbines, like solar panels, break down. They produce less energy before they break down than the energy it took to make them. The wind does not blow all the time, or even most of the time. When it is not blowing, they require full-time backup from conventional power plants.
    Without government subsidy, they are unaffordable. With governments facing financial troubles, the subsidies are unaffordable. It was a nice dream, a very expensive dream, but it didn’t work.

    California had the “big three” of wind farm locations — Altamont Pass, Tehachapi, and San Gorgonio, considered the world’s best wind sites. California’s wind farms, almost 80% of the world’s wind generation capacity ceased to generate even more quickly than Kamaoa Wind Farm in Hawaii. There are five other abandoned wind farms in Hawaii. When they are abandoned, getting the turbines removed is a major problem. They are highly unsightly, and they are huge, and that’s a lot of material to get rid of.

    Unfortunately the same areas that are good for siting wind farms are a natural pass for migrating birds. Altamont’s turbines have been shut down four months out of every year for migrating birds after environmentalists filed suit. According to the Golden Gate Audubon Society 75-110 Golden Eagles, 380 Burrowing Owls, 300 Red-Tailed Hawks and 333 American Kestrels are killed by the turbines every year. An Alameda County Community Development Agency study points to 10,000 annual bird deaths from Altamont wind turbines. The Audubon Society makes up numbers like the EPA, but there’s a reason why they call them bird Cuisinarts.

    Palm Springs has enacted an ordinance requiring their removal from San Gorgonio Pass, but unless something else changes abandoned turbines will remain a rotting eyesores, or the taxpayers who have already paid through the nose for overpriced energy and crony-capitalist tax scams will have to foot the bill for their removal.

    President Obama’s offshore wind farms will be far more expensive than those sited in California’s ideal wind locations. Salt water is far more damaging than sun and rain, and offshore turbines don’t last as long. But nice tax scams for his crony-capitalist backers will work well as long as he can blame it all on saving the planet.

    “Environmentalists” wanted them put up – now “Environmentalists” want them pulled down!!!!
    Wind generators have a very limited life span (about 15 years I have heard). The entire energy used to manufacture them and dismantle them is probably greater than the electricity that they generated in their entire lifetime!!! They were never an option for base-load power for industry anyway! Still - they kept a lot people in employment while they were “flavour of the month”

    ........................................in China!!!



    Interesting article and as usual we play follow the leader in Australia. Surely we have to get serious about more coal fired and nuclear power stations
    14,000 ABANDONED WIND TURBINES LITTER THE UNITED STATES





    The towering symbols of a fading religion, over 14,000 wind turbines, abandoned, rusting, slowly decaying. When it is time to clean up after a failed idea, no green environmentalists are to be found. Wind was free, natural, harnessing Earth’s bounty for the benefit of all mankind, sounded like a good idea. Wind turbines, like solar panels, break down. They produce less energy before they break down than the energy it took to make them. The wind does not blow all the time, or even most of the time. When it is not blowing, they require full-time backup from conventional power plants.
    Without government subsidy, they are unaffordable. With governments facing financial troubles, the subsidies are unaffordable. It was a nice dream, a very expensive dream, but it didn’t work.

    California had the “big three” of wind farm locations — Altamont Pass, Tehachapi, and San Gorgonio, considered the world’s best wind sites. California’s wind farms, almost 80% of the world’s wind generation capacity ceased to generate even more quickly than Kamaoa Wind Farm in Hawaii. There are five other abandoned wind farms in Hawaii. When they are abandoned, getting the turbines removed is a major problem. They are highly unsightly, and they are huge, and that’s a lot of material to get rid of.

    Unfortunately the same areas that are good for siting wind farms are a natural pass for migrating birds. Altamont’s turbines have been shut down four months out of every year for migrating birds after environmentalists filed suit. According to the Golden Gate Audubon Society 75-110 Golden Eagles, 380 Burrowing Owls, 300 Red-Tailed Hawks and 333 American Kestrels are killed by the turbines every year. An Alameda County Community Development Agency study points to 10,000 annual bird deaths from Altamont wind turbines. The Audubon Society makes up numbers like the EPA, but there’s a reason why they call them bird Cuisinarts.

    Palm Springs has enacted an ordinance requiring their removal from San Gorgonio Pass, but unless something else changes abandoned turbines will remain a rotting eyesores, or the taxpayers who have already paid through the nose for overpriced energy and crony-capitalist tax scams will have to foot the bill for their removal.

    President Obama’s offshore wind farms will be far more expensive than those sited in California’s ideal wind locations. Salt water is far more damaging than sun and rain, and offshore turbines don’t last as long. But nice tax scams for his crony-capitalist backers will work well as long as he can blame it all on saving the planet.

    “Environmentalists” wanted them put up – now “Environmentalists” want them pulled down!!!!
    Wind generators have a very limited life span (about 15 years I have heard). The entire energy used to manufacture them and dismantle them is probably greater than the electricity that they generated in their entire lifetime!!! They were never an option for base-load power for industry anyway! Still - they kept a lot people in employment while they were “flavour of the month”

    ........................................in China!!!









    --
    If you notice these notices you will notice these notices are totally worth noticing.
    BDW
    23rd Nov 2018
    11:49pm
    If you go into more detail with this story you will find these 1st & 2nd generation wind turbines are actually being replaced with the latest technology that are in some cases 10 times more efficient.
    micreen
    23rd Nov 2018
    5:00pm
    We need coal fired generators, all the renewables are government subsidised to the hilt and would not be put in place without this incentive. Remove incentives/ tax breaks and cost goes thru roof, when wind blows !!
    Volcanoes are the big pollutors, which never seem to rate a mention from the opponents to coal power . Why is this so ???
    PerthSV
    23rd Nov 2018
    5:47pm
    You know volcanoes aren't burning anything don't you?? They push out hot lava and dust.

    The amount of CO2 is minimal to the point of being insignificant. They don't pollute anything. Where did you get your education??

    In fact your whole argument is unfounded.
    Lookfar
    23rd Nov 2018
    8:49pm
    micreen the incentives for renewables in america are minimal, frump is financing the coal industry big time, - the coal industry is still falling like nine pins, despite that they want to hide it, it is so.
    Hoss
    23rd Nov 2018
    5:15pm
    There are much cheaper costs for a solar system with battery back-up than shown by Choice.
    MD
    23rd Nov 2018
    5:34pm
    Pollies, nuke the lot of em and then (maybe) we'll readily welcome some shrewd operator(s) with the latest air-brained scheme to supply the latest wiz bang genset to satisfy the ever increasing needs/demands of our power hungry and indulgent society. It's worth remembering that pollies, love em or hate em, merely reflect the outlook/attitude of the electorate - although vested interests generally mirror said pollie's best reflection.

    That most comment indicates a dearth of comprehensive understanding of matters electricity supply will in no way bring about any significant degree of change to the status quo to existing generating systems or pricing. Like it or loath it, money and the monied minority happen to be the principal organ grinders playing the tunes to which the pollies perform their best song and dance routine.

    Australia is fortunate in that we have significant resources of uranium, gas, coal, sunshine (mustn't overlook the blowhards) and wind. Surely, with a combination of any mix of these assets - all within our own backyard, our pollies can bring the relevant parties to the negotiating table with a view to delivering an effective, sustainable and affordable power supply/network ? Or am I just another (dumb) bright spark ?
    Charlie
    23rd Nov 2018
    5:54pm
    I refuse to answer the question about the labor or liberal leader.

    What a politician says and what they do can be two different things.

    What somebody else says, that a politician has said, is way too unreliable
    iskovk
    23rd Nov 2018
    5:55pm
    We must look carefully at modern nuclear. With the worlds largest deposits of uranium, with zero carbon di- oxide emissions we must overcome our ideogical objections, review modern safety standards, and rebuild our base load capacity. And when will someone say the batteries have terrible life span of about 10 years (compare 50 years for power stations) at which time they are little better than 50% capacity, and are horribly polluting to dispose of and horribly polluting and exploitative of Lithium miners to produce. A lot of selective self-rightousness in this sector!
    Chris B T
    23rd Nov 2018
    6:29pm
    Quoting high tariffs is one of costs, The Standard Metre Fee and GST are others.
    Tariffs for Solar Panels and One Time Rebates on Purchase are available at different levels, States with one Common Outcome.
    The excess power is fed back into the Grid so My Neighbour who has a Power Need Regardless of Solar Panels or not the Power Only Travels a Short Distance.
    Where I only Receive .106 cent tariff but the Neighbour Pays .28 cents Plus GST and Standard Meter Fee.
    Tell me now How Solar Panels Don't help with the Power Grid and yes I have Saved On Costs, Which I Had A Upfront Cost.
    My Excess Power Only Travels a Few Meters, Power Station Power Travels Hundreds of Kilometers.
    Roof Top Solar Panels are a Benefit For All.
    No More Holes use The Ones We Already Have.
    Fe
    23rd Nov 2018
    6:58pm
    We in Australia produce less than 1.5% of the world's CO2 output. If we stopped all CO2 production tomorrow we would make NO DIFFERENCE to the world's output. We are being conned by the "looney-left" and "greenies" to believe our "sacrifice" will save the world. Strange how it is only the left-of-centre politicians and governments that are screaming and wanting to tax us all for the CO2 we produce. The Earth is in constant climate cycles and there is NOTHING we can do about it. Australia is rich in Uranium, so we should be building nuclear power stations to utilise our resources. And to all you who will parrot "Solar not Nuclear" Solar IS Nuclear. Yes, I'm a W.A.S.P. and PROUD of it.
    Lookfar
    23rd Nov 2018
    8:54pm
    The right is in the pay of the Multibillionaires, who own the oil, coal and the media, the real people are portrayed as the 'left', but we are still the real people, the .01% are our deadly enemy, they have no morals, just greed, and no wisdom, they are vampires.
    Not a Bludger
    23rd Nov 2018
    7:14pm
    Just stop letting the Loonie Left and the Fairies at the Bottom of the Garden run the agenda.
    Let the Government guarantee to buy the output, let private industry build proven HE coal fired generators and promptly follow up with proven smaller nuclear fired localised stations.
    DickH
    23rd Nov 2018
    9:26pm
    This subject has been made complicated by politicians who know very little about it. Build a 2000 megawatt power station running on low emition black coal and the problem is solved. When technology finally gives us an alternative other than nuclear we should use it. The payback on a battery solar system is 12 years or more no matter what the manufactures say. The battries also have a finite life. So the overall costs are untenable with Shortens Policy. No wind no generation and the gear boxes fail increasing costs of the wind systems. I really don't care much for me only for the Grandkids.
    Couldabeen
    23rd Nov 2018
    11:08pm
    In the Australian context, it would be impossible to take the energy needs of the country completely over to re-newables. No existing re-newable methods can give the year round continuity of quality power provision. The long term future power generation should be worked on nuclear as it is the proven safe and clean method. It is expensive because of ingrained opposition created decades ago in a political bid to prevent access to cheap power. The opposition has resulted from concerted demonisation of nuclear power that has been shown to be unrealistic. The sooner the public discussions by all parties start to include nuclear the sooner Australians can be sure of affordable safe continuous power.
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    12:51am
    The overall energy crisis is insoluble, since viewing the issue from the perspective of a need to move masses of people and resources globally and even nationally is bounded severely by the ability of humanity to access ready resources of energy, such as petroleum.

    Rooftop solar will work for twenty years or the life of the equipment for the home - it will not resolve the issues of energy needed to continue the current 'global' system of transfer of goods for profit etc.

    A litre of petrol derived from petroleum can move a car weighing 1.5 tonnes over a distance of ten kilometres (or so) - to do the same would required the power of many men...

    Once petroleum runs dry, and the forecasts are that this could occur between 2035 (17 years) and 2060.....a Complete New World will appear - one of nationalism and of very localised power structures.... and on in which 'traditional' power sources such as fossil carbon coal etc, will resume importance.

    So yes - in the short term - the household can maintain itself for twenty years after installing total off-grid solar/wind etc.. then it needs to replace equipment.... and that equipment must come increasingly from Offshore.... and when Offshore can no longer move large quantities of replacement parts and equipment in the 'global economy' - all will collapse due to lack of spares and replacement parts.

    This is a basis of my WW IV series written - and allied with the current thrust of 'feminism', creates the world in which my protagonists move and operate....

    Look around you people - what do you see NOW and HERE?

    All of the above.... so start looking for a new approach to everything....
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    1:13am
    You can resolve your 'local' need for power for a limited time... even massive wind and solar nationally will not move goods internationally....

    Where is the solution once petroleum becomes near extinct? Back to coal and wind?

    And how much 'smaller' will the world be then, governed once again by the tyranny of distance?

    When the 'global economy' that you come to rely on collapses... what will you do? How will you 'support' the massive numbers currently generated by immigration here, given that this nation has surrendered its own productive capability and even to some extent in the pursuit of 'resources' its own ability to feed itself?

    Hence The Trebor Plan - we use our own resources to create our own industries, and we control immigration so that we can support those we have.... using the GAIA Plan Mk I that I've posted elsewhere....
    Gee Whiz
    24th Nov 2018
    6:52am
    Nationalize the electricity industry. The idiot politicans stuffed up the industry in the first place on instructions from the top end of town. The big private corporations wanted control of the power grid knowing full well they could make a fortune in profits. The politicans got in on the ground floor and bought tens of thousands of shares in the companies. They also made a lot of money. No matter what publicly owned business the moron politicans decided to privateise they all became disasters. Typical examples the CBA, Electricity, the oil industry, rail, oil industry etc, etc.
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    1:22pm
    Yes - Captive audience utilities should never be handed over to corporate vultures and parasites called shareholders. they were running just fine... nothing has changed since except that the cost to the end user - the former owner - has skyrocketed. You may include roads and gas in there...

    Each of these is a national security issue and should not be in the hands of any privat3e operators, let alone foreign ones.

    There is an organisation of ex-military people in the US currently engaging in getting the government to stop privatisation and to consider these things (and others) as national security issues.
    vincent
    24th Nov 2018
    9:10am
    Windfarms at sea are extremely efficient Generators of 8MW are commonplace now. Plenty of jobs in construction and maintenance. Next not one of you lot has mentioned hot rocks. Plenry of those in Victoria can be used with existing technology and provides baseload.
    vincent
    24th Nov 2018
    9:16am
    Micreen time to stop your unsubstantiated drivel. Go and have a look at Denmark. Used wind before WW2 and kept going with it. They are world leaders, others are playing catchup. But one can not argue with a true believer like you like any other fanatic.
    mogo51
    24th Nov 2018
    11:16am
    I was never in favour of privatising energy. What genius sells something that is making big profits. Now we are paying the price.
    Rae
    24th Nov 2018
    12:05pm
    The privatised energy companies are beginning to fall over very quickly in the UK so there is hope yet.

    As our hundreds of retailers go belly up and taxpayers move in to sort out the mess we will have less and less costs to pay for in the form of CEOs, bonuses, office buildings etc.

    If your retailer or provider collapses remember to take a dated photo of the meter.
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    1:25pm
    I doubt that will alter the already established over-pricing, Rae - just move it into government hands again.

    Like any tax or impost on the gullible and captive audience public, once installed it is never taken away, even when government 'changes' at an election.

    Watch this space for Bro Shorten and The Feminist Party - Australian Tour 2019-202?
    TREBOR
    24th Nov 2018
    1:36pm
    Anyway - global warming aside - the consensus seems to be:-

    1. Restore public ownership of utilities.
    2. Steadily reduce fossil generated energy
    3. Gradually install alternatives.
    4. Offer the Emerging World the choice between drowning in their own atmosphere or moving forward like The Clean Country. *
    5. Consider nuclear - but keep a wary eye on the potential for its use in The emerging World to develop weapons.

    * I grew up and worked my early years in a filthy industrial city - to this day the doctors are flooded with people like me who have some kind of non-specific lung and throat ailments.... funny that.
    MD
    24th Nov 2018
    5:31pm
    "the doctors are flooded with people like me who have some kind of non-specific lung and throat ailments...."
    Good luck with that Trebor, both the good quacks and your equally good self are unlikely to manage drinking enough to save yourselves from drowning. Bottom's up!
    Bes
    24th Nov 2018
    8:49pm
    People in retirement villages, rented homes and high rise apartments seem to be left out of any equation where one has to own a roof.
    I have solar. I had solar installed over 7 years ago and have never paid an electric bill since! Thanks to a generous PAY BACK TARIFF. (0.47 cents which was quickly scrubbed as being deemed as too expensive)
    In the evening, I have lights on and televisions playing in my home.
    I am drawing electricity from the grid to be able to do this.
    AT THIS MOMENT YOU PAY TO SUBSIDISE PEOPLE LIKE ME! If you pay a power bill and pay tax…Thank You!
    And the Chinese thank you for purchasing their manufactured solar panels using COAL power! Australian Coal!

    Never forget that the government is 100% taxpayer funded and EVERYTHING that is government funded is funded by YOUR money!
    Reliable power for living in the 21st century without blackouts isn’t an unfair request.
    I am not bagging solar or wind power...but it needs to be FULLY operational, tried and tested and reliable for EVERYONE.
    And to provide power for industry too!,
    Coal is one of Australia's biggest export earners to countries who use it to power their power stations.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-28/australian-coal-demand-surging-driven-by-asia/9914058
    So maybe we should be asking ourselves why it is good enough for them to buy it and transport it to their shores and why we seek to deprive ourselves?
    Global warming/Climate change has been happening for thousands of years and the planet is still evolving.
    The number of humans has grown to 7.6 Billion and rising by 23 Million per year to date.
    All resources will become stretched at some point along with their pollution's.
    Alternatives to change the tides of climate control are akin to standing on the shore and ordering the tide to go back. (Once tried by the Viking King Cnut the Great also known as Canute. Please read history for the result.
    Arguments and Fake News arise almost on a daily basis and fed to the public, mostly for political gain and power.
    According to popular legend, Hitler’s master of propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, said: “A lie told once is still a lie, but a lie told 1000 times becomes the truth.”
    auldtic
    25th Nov 2018
    3:14pm
    Mining companies receive a large diesel fuel rebate.
    maxchugg
    26th Nov 2018
    10:36am
    The argument about whether the electricity system in Tasmania should be privatised emerged a couple of decades ago when the then Liberal Premier, wanted to sell the system. The devious arguments put forward by the Liberals were destroyed by opponents supported by Labor, and the scheme failed.

    There is no doubt that Tasmanians have been paying exorbitant prices for their electricity which is generated by a massive hydro-electric system, but at least the money remains in the state and the system provides bargain basement prices to industries which would otherwise move offshore.

    A further benefit, Tasmania is, as Western Australia was, a mendicant state, profits from the sale of electricity are of benefit to the entire nation as they contribute to the running costs of the state.

    Finally, this should not be construed as support for the Labor Party which now exists. The Labor Party at the time was keenly interested in the welfare of the "Aussie battler" and a Labor premier at the time was the prime mover in the establishment of the hydro system which has been of inestimable benefit to the state in the past, and will continue into the foreseeable future.
    Eddie
    26th Nov 2018
    8:08pm
    CO2 levels are currently 0.04% of our atmosphere. Planet Mars CO2 level is 95% of its atmosphere. Mars is considerably colder than Earth
    Eddie
    26th Nov 2018
    8:14pm
    There are more trees on our planet now compared to 100 years ago. This is due to choosing to utilize the energy in coal, instead of continuing to cut down trees to provide the heating/cooking/industrial needs.
    Eddie
    26th Nov 2018
    8:18pm
    Yes, it is getting warmer. The people currently living in Siberia are experiencing their coldest winter in recorded history; minus 65C. Yes, for them a little warmer would be nice.
    Eddie
    26th Nov 2018
    8:32pm
    When our farmers grow vegetables and fruits in a controlled greenhouse environment; to maximize size, yield and a fast grow time, they release CO2 into the greenhouse at 8000 parts per million to achieve this. CO2 in our atmosphere is 400 ppm. An increase in CO2 levels in our atmosphere will mean a greener planet. Trees, grasses, plants and food crops will flourish.
    Eddie
    26th Nov 2018
    8:44pm
    Our government currently heavily subsidize renewable energy sources. There is pressure within government to end these subsidies. When they do.....electricity prices will skyrocket. To continue with an idea to reply solely on renewables will most certainly end in a failng economy and social disaster.
    Eddie
    26th Nov 2018
    8:58pm
    Is battery storage an important part of our future energy plans? The SA government gave to Tesla and a private company $50 million to build a battery storage facility to assist with SA's energy needs. It can provide one hours electricity to 30,000 homes...SA has over 767,000 houses within its boundaries......This investment in battery storage will provide, for all SA homes, 2 and 1 half minutes of electricity.