Boat people – have our leaders failed?

How can politicians weep and wail and then meekly head off on holiday?

Boat people – have our leaders failed, Federal Parliament, MPs, Rob Oakshott, Lower House, Liberal National Party Coalition, the Greens, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, illegal immigrants, asylum seekers, Senate, holidays, olympics, action,

Yesterday was the last sitting day of our Federal Parliament before a six-week recess. During this time 20 MPs will head overseas for study tours, with parliamentary delegations and to attend the Olympic games. In recent days we have seen the asylum seeker debate heat up as an increasing number of refugee boats head toward our shores. Some of these boats are unseaworthy, most are overcrowded, many are sinking and lives are being lost. A bill created by Independent Rob Oakeshott passed the Lower House but was rejected by the Liberal National Party Coalition and the Greens in the Senate. In the absence of a legislative solution, the Prime Minister has now announced an expert panel, led by Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, to address the problem with ‘fresh eyes’. A multi-party parliamentary committee is also planned. Given the call for a bi-partisan approach to the issue of illegal immigrants by MPs from all parties, it is disappointing we have reached yet another impasse. Which raises the question whether our political leaders have failed us – and if our parliamentary system is now incapable of delivering solutions to our national problems.

Comment – Have we all failed?

So the Oakeshott bill to proceed with offshore processing of asylum seekers has failed to pass the Senate. No surprises there. Mr Abbott has said under no circumstances will his party support a Malaysian solution and the Greens will not support offshore processing, full stop. Putting party politics aside, let’s consider what is going on with our leaders. Over the past few days we have seen politician after politician stand in Federal Parliament and weep tears of frustration and distress over the loss of life occurring in Australian waters as leaky boats founder, causing men, women and children to drown. We have even seen a flutter of hope with a call for a bi-partisan solution from West Australian MP, Dr. Mal Washer. But this all seems to have come to nothing. The bill has failed. The boats will continue to set out and lives, sadly, will probably still be lost.

There are two things that stand out. And two questions we really must ask. Firstly, what kind of leaders have we got, who are prepared to go on a six-week break when this matter remains unresolved? How can they go home and pack their bags for a break in Europe or North America or China (call it a study tour if you wish) when there are genuine refugees dying on our doorstop? Has our party system finally broken down? What is the point of electing highly paid representatives who, when the going gets tough, respond by getting going - out the door? How can these people weep and wail and then meekly head off?

And before we go back to our own (relatively) comfortable lives, should we all not ask ourselves how much we care, personally, that scores of people have died in our coastal waters over the past few weeks? If a school group of 20 children died at Bondi because of a freak wave, the outpouring of grief and outrage would be relentless. But when the same number of people with different coloured skin, is lost at sea, we somehow seem to discount the tragedy. Surely a life cut short is a tragedy, regardless of age, nationality or circumstance. Where is our sense of humanity?

If you do care, have you told your local MP that you want a solution now?

Not sure how? Well, here’s the link.

Surely it’s time we all stopped making excuses and started coming up with solutions. Our leaders can only get away with a lack of resolution if we let them. So if you think our leaders have failed us, isn’t it up to us to force them to act?

What do you think? Have our leaders failed us? Have we failed ourselves?

Interesting blog in The Sydney Morning Herald
ABC summary of parliamentary action

Do we need to do more to make our leaders accountable?
Yes
No
 




    COMMENTS

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    ozimarco
    29th Jun 2012
    1:05pm
    I am absolutely outraged that our politicians failed to resolve this yesterday. I think they should have stayed there until they came up with a solution that would stop people dying at sea. In my view, only the Malaysia solution will take the incentive away from people to get on boats. The Oakeshott bill should have been passed. It has a 12 month moratorium clause built in, which means that, if the policy turns out not to be effective or there are some other problems with it, it would cease after 12 months. Yesterday will go down in history as a day of epic failure by our democratic system and our politicians. Not only have we failed ourselves but, more importantly, the desperate people we are trying to save from dying at sea. Some people are worried about human rights in Malaysia. Well, refugees in Malaysia are much better off than those at the bottom of the ocean.
    Wanderer
    29th Jun 2012
    4:37pm
    Definitely agree with these sentiments! If a court room is locked by a jury, the jury is either forced to stay until a decision is made or a new jury is called. Shouldn't Parliament be the same?
    marron
    30th Jun 2012
    5:47pm
    They only stay in Parliament to make decisions when it suits them, after all they have so many overseas trips that they need to go on, using our taxes. It is disgusting that they ran out the door so quickly. BUT at the same time it is NOT OUR fault that these smugglers are overloading boats and bringing load after load as quickly as they can. Indonesia and the smugglers are the wrongdoers, they know that the majority of the men are fit and strong enough to be fighting for their own country but why bother when they can come here and get everything for nothing. That is Julia Gillards doing, stop the money, give them temporary Visas.
    aquatrek
    1st Jul 2012
    5:01pm
    Vote YES for Naru = offshore processing so that the people smugglers know that their promise to their human cargo that they will set foot in the "lucky country" wont carry any credence/truth. Get it published in the Islamic papers in Indonesia/Malaysia so that the public there know. Get this Oz govt to make it known at all levels, from the UN down. Twitter it, Facebook it - it worked before !!
    Wendy HK
    29th Jun 2012
    1:14pm
    If everytime a boat came and the "government" confiscated it they would soon run out of boats or the people smugglers would think twice about needing to aquire a new boat for every trip.
    Apologizing in advance for this - its not well thought out - but its a thought.
    ozimarco
    29th Jun 2012
    1:42pm
    The people smugglers already acquire a different boat for every trip. They are certainly not 'new' boats, but old leaky vessels ready for the scrap heap. There is a virtually unlimited supply of those boats. Many of these boats, if they are not sabotaged by the crew themselves, are destroyed by Australia after confiscation.
    monaghan
    29th Jun 2012
    1:24pm
    Since Labor came into power under false pretenses, they have destroyed a system that was working, even though one of their own previous leaders Kim Beazley agreed to it.
    They stopped off shore processing, and tried to set up Timor as a base for accepting illegal
    boat people. Timor disagreed to the use of their shores being used.
    Then they tried to get off shore processing in Malaysia, but the High court challenge ruled that this was contrary to the Un charter, as Malaysia was not a signatory to the charter.
    M/S Gillard would not accept Nauru who is now a signatory to the charter, and where processing was prevously conducted, and facilities are still there even though because of this government they have not been kept up to scratch.
    May hundreds of these boat people, men, women, and children have died since Labor got into government.
    M/s Gillard says Labor has compromised, and will now use Nauru, but they still wish to go against the High Court ruling, and also use Malaysia who still is not a signatory to the UNHCR charter.
    M/s Gillard still does not want anything passed unless she gets her way.
    People will continue to die as a result her stubborness, its as though she doesn't care.
    These deaths will be because of her and her government.

    resul
    ozimarco
    29th Jun 2012
    1:55pm
    We all know the history of the politically charged asylum seeker problem in Australia. What we are asking from our politicians at the moment is a bipartisan approach to stop the deaths occurring in the seas to our north. The only way to do this is by having a strong deterrent to people getting on boats. The Malaysia solution absolutely does this. No one is going to pay a people smuggler thousands of dollars only to end up at the back of the queue in Malaysia. They will keep using people smugglers if there is a chance of ending up in Australia via Nauru, Manus Island or wherever else.
    sexeebear
    29th Jun 2012
    4:14pm
    but its not just the boat people who are passsing away.. what about the people in care and nursing homes and those who need urgent help or prescription drugs not of the pbs which this govy doesnt provide because of the cost blow out of the budget to these so called refugees.... any one with $10,000 to pay a people smuggler isnt a refugee... the problem could be solved if we excluded these so called refugees and their offspring and families from ever obtainng subsidised housing. dental and medicle treatment and the dole and made them conform to our ausie standard of dress and education... took away their religious schools and ghetos and if they dont speak english to a really good standard then no entry ....this would stop this refugee nonsense straight away.... no im not a racist but my family have paid dearly for the priveledge of living here and i for one dont want to share it with someone who dosnt share my beliefs and wishes for the future of australia. long live australians and australia
    Aloysius
    29th Jun 2012
    1:25pm
    The people on the boats have paid big money to fly to Indonesia (a safe third country) and then to pay people smugglers, often after losing their papers. Why don't they pay QANTAS or Garuda for a safe ticket. The genuinely poor refugees waiting their turn in camps deserve priority.
    retroy
    29th Jun 2012
    4:18pm
    Airlines get fined of they bring people in without a visa so they do not board them.
    BettyBoo
    29th Jun 2012
    1:36pm
    There aren't very many jobs where you could go off on holiday without finishing the work in hand.
    Emps
    29th Jun 2012
    1:37pm
    Why are commentators blaming all politicians and the parliament over the immigration issue?

    Lets be specific. Blame the govt. No blame can be attached to the opposition as they have a policy proven to work. It just will not be accepted by Gillard simply because it is "those opposits" policy, no other reason.

    Yet here we have Gillard, the greens,and two independants each applying moral pressure on Abbot for not co-operating,when if they do so with Mr Abbot the issue would be quickly resolved. Tony Abbout is doing the right thing sticking to his policy which Sen Evans scrapped. Only this shambolic govt should suffer the blame for the tragic consequencies of their doing.
    retroy
    29th Jun 2012
    4:19pm
    Agree

    We had an effective policy and Rudd changed it and opened the flood gates so blame labor
    Joybells
    29th Jun 2012
    7:09pm
    100% agree.Hats off to Tony Abbot and his party for sticking to their guns and doing the correct thing. Malaysia is not the answer -the old Howard way was proven to work. Why change a good thing like Julia did and then expect the country to just go along with her proven failed policy.So let's put the blame for no solution where it belongs, on the red headed lady.
    Oldie@83
    29th Jun 2012
    1:37pm
    My heart bleeds for the needy, especially those in refugee camps waiting their turn to be processed. I wonder what they feel about their countrymen with money who can buy airline tickets to Indonesia then pay for a boat (even though risky). I would think they are very forlorn wondering why "boat people" are allowed to jump the queue as illegal Immigrants..
    ALP should realise the so called "Howard Solution" worked; swallow their political pride and reintroduce a workable solution. They would be commended for it by potential voters.
    sexeebear
    29th Jun 2012
    4:19pm
    if we intrioduced a policy that no boat people would ever be processed it would stop this nonsense....and why dont we???? there are many refugees doing the right thing. waiting and applying through our legal avenues.. why should the wealthy get priority over the genuine ones waiting patiently in line legally....
    Grateful
    29th Jun 2012
    1:41pm
    Clearly WE have ALL failed. Politicians only reflect what their constituents want and Tony Abbott is absolutely certain that he has the majority supporting his position and he can only see his photo on the walls of Parliament House as the next Prime Minister.

    And if everyone HONESTLY believes that we should "keep politics" out of the asylum debate, then, why doesn't such a human issue warrant a private conscience vote to remove ALL politics out of it???
    Seems incredibly insensitive that the Greens think that same sex marriage DEMANDS and gets a conscience vote, yet, when there is an issue with life and death circumstances, they keep preaching their holier than thou "principles". The pox on them. Contact your local MP and both leaders or forever hold your peace.
    Irishwolfhound
    30th Jun 2012
    2:37am
    ""Politicians only reflect what their constituents want"" You are kidding us aren't you !!! Politicians want what keeps them in a job longer.
    Great granny
    1st Jul 2012
    1:13pm
    What a stupid thing to say "politicians only reflect what their constituents want" - we all know that the politicians do exactly what THEY want - that's why we have Ju-liar Gillard as our prime minister now - I thought we voted Kevin Rudd in?

    And as for the 'boat people' I believe we're being invaded by Muslims, that's why they're all fit young blokes - we're being invaded and one day they will get into parliament - then watch out!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have a look at the UK - there are parts of the UK where white man can't go anymore and don't anyone write and say that's rubbish because I hear it from relo's over there....................
    Boof
    29th Jun 2012
    1:42pm
    I agree totally with "ALOYSIUS". All that said, our Parliamentarians are a bloody disgrace. Not only are people dying, we don't want the boat people ( Pakistani's and Indains and Talaban) coming here Willy Nilly, to be preocessed, if we can help it. I don't know who is responsible for the processing but they are "Stuffing" it up, big time. Look at the "Four Corners" fiasco. That's just one incident. Our Commonwealth Police are another laughing stock, also. They couldn't run a raffle at Las Vegus. The DOOOO-GOODERS' will get their way as usual. They will probably suggest sending our Navy Ships to indonesia, next, to pick them up. I hope the first Bomb, is under them and not some innocent Australian.
    Great granny
    1st Jul 2012
    1:17pm
    ........................I'm with you.
    mitchella51
    29th Jun 2012
    1:42pm
    It would not mater what Gillard put even if she put up Abott's proposal he would knock that back also. It's all about power not people.
    davewatto
    29th Jun 2012
    2:44pm
    It's Labours coalition mates, the Greens, who consistently vote against these measures and who must take the blame for this impasse. At the end of the Howard years there were virtually NO boat arrivals but, under pressure from the Greens, the Labour Government relaxed the controls and we now find ourselves with new boats arriving on a daily basis. Labour should swallow its pride and agree to return to the previous arrangements which were 100% effective.
    Emps
    29th Jun 2012
    1:49pm
    @mitchella51.
    That is a typical labour troll. Abbot knocking. Shame
    mitchella51
    29th Jun 2012
    1:53pm
    Emps, yep look what the libs are not doing in NSW AND THEY SAID THEY WOULD FIX EVERYTHING !
    Emps
    29th Jun 2012
    2:27pm
    mitchella51

    Whats that got to do with Tony Abbot? or the the fed opposition. By the way,these comments are about the immigration issue.
    robmur
    29th Jun 2012
    1:56pm
    Once the new Labor Government under PM Rudd weakened the process by which the asylum seekers could enter Australia, the whole thing has become a total disaster, not only the lives lost, but the very poor administration now being continued and administered by the Gillard Government. What I don't understand is if the High Court of Australia rejected the Malaysian deal, how does it still have currency with the government? How can Malaysia still be on the government's agenda if the original policy was seen to be invalid? If Gillard just dropped the Malaysian component of her current policy, the coalition would agree to the processing of asylum seekers. The Greens opposition would be lost in the Senate. For Gillard now to set up a committee of three while she is off enjoying the Olympic Games does truly indicate what a hopeless PM she is. Gillard along with her ministers are the ones responsible for governing the country. This idea of blaming every body else because her crazy policies are worthless is a bit rich. They created the mess, they should sort it out. Any government living on a knife edge majority is always going to have trouble passing legislation that is poorly conceived and has no chance of passing in the Senate when the government is in the minority. All the more reason to be sure the legislation before the parliament is properly thought through.
    mitchella51
    29th Jun 2012
    2:03pm
    Robmur, yes but why did they not fix it and give it a try ? the senate only did what Abott wanted.
    marron
    30th Jun 2012
    5:49pm
    What a load of codswallop! They did what they all wanted, especially the Greens.
    Thai Traveller
    29th Jun 2012
    2:18pm
    Totally disgusted with ALL governments.

    Our own in Oz land, and did you notice that the last boat sank in Indonesian waters covered by their Search and Rescue, but they were 'unable' to assist. At least our search and rescue people were able to help, and not going off on a 6 week break.

    You can bet that the country next door would be out there in a flash if it looked like refugees were arriving and not departing.
    Abby
    8th Jul 2012
    10:27am
    Great granny
    I absolutely agree with you - this is invasion by stealth. Europe is starting to learn its lesson and we are not far behind. Just look at their breeding patterns - no they do not have to work when they get here. They should take all the young men and send them back to fight in Afganistan and bring our soldiers back.
    Aloysius
    29th Jun 2012
    2:18pm
    The coalition proposed an amendment to remove countries that have not signed the UN refugee convention from being a processing point. The ALP voted it down instead of accepting what was a morally superior approach.
    Aloysius
    29th Jun 2012
    2:44pm
    I should add that the independents and the Greens joined the ALP in voting against what would have been a solution that would have been passed in both Houses. We must get rid of the independents and the Greens when we have an election.
    justme
    29th Jun 2012
    2:22pm
    It's probably been said before, but our "leaders" failed when they changed the laws to encourage illegal immigrants to try the treacherous sea journey.
    They also failed legal immigrants by "using up" there quota of places on illegals.
    bizilizy
    29th Jun 2012
    2:26pm
    I totally agree that our politicians have failed us here. Why the need for them to break up for six weeks? It's not like it's Christmas? My thoughts (for what they're worth) are: 1. Close all borders to immigration immediately. 2. Return all boat people to Indonesia the moment they arrive. Don't give them any hope of staying (the message will soon get out). 3. Blow up Ashmore Reef 4. Give Christmas Island to the Indonesians.
    For far too long we have pandied to Indonesia and they think we are a weak joke. It's time Australia got tough and stopped putting up with the way we are treated by them.
    Porthos
    29th Jun 2012
    2:37pm
    People endeavour to enter Australia all the time by plane. The only difference between them and "boat people" is that they have identification. It is wrong that unidentified people from the other side of the world can pay to get entry to Australia (by whatever means) and demand acceptance as refugees (whether genuine or not). I agree with Ozimarco that the Malaysia solution is the only way of stopping people smugglers (in the short term) and giving priority to genuine refugees. The coalition solution worked once when neither Nauru nor Indonesia were signatories to the UN convention on refugees but it won't work now because once people are in Nauru they are guaranteed a place in Australia (UN convention).
    Aloysius
    29th Jun 2012
    2:48pm
    Funny how they can fly into Indonesia with papers but then not have papers on the smuggler boats. It's got something to do with visa eligibilty.
    JJ
    29th Jun 2012
    2:38pm
    Totally disgusted with all of them!! They could have set a compromise up as a temporary measure, and then after their break taken more time to find a mutually acceptable solution. But why would we expect anything other than what they did? It's all about politics and power. If Tony Abbott is so positive that his will be the next government, he could have allowed Julia her head and then changed it when he came into power. At least it would have done as a stopgap, and she had compromised on Nauru. Meanwhile, the Greens refuse to budge on anything apart from the course they want to set. A pox on them all!
    Anonymous
    7th Jul 2012
    4:02pm
    If you're saying they could have set up a compromise, why, then, didn't Labor leave the Pacific solution in place until they were able to put their own policy in place?
    That would have been the sensible compromise.
    student
    29th Jun 2012
    2:51pm
    I have just emailed my local Fed. Polly.

    I am emailing you, as my Federal Parliament representative, to voice my disgust and embarrissment with the Federal parliamentary behaviour during the past few days in regard to the lack of compassion and sensible rhetoric coming from the Australian Federal Parliament. Besides being (morally) guilty of murder every time a refugee boat flounders and sinks en route to Australia and lives are lost, YOUNG men and women (and children) who may become productive and loyal citizens, die.

    My solution, or part solution, is to have more public servants o/s to process these people quicker. Good heavens woman, we are talking about human lives hre. YOUNG people, not the elderly, YOUNG,educated people. People who can raise thousands of $'s to risk their lives to escape the horrors of where they live. Forget about the racial rhetoric that spews forth from other politicians, YOU are my representative, now you know how to represent me.

    That is my email, but I do so want to really let rip. The only concerns I have with (il)legal boat people is the threat of introduced desease into our agriculture system. We, as Australians, must do what is right for us and our duty to others. We need a younger population .. (I'm being selfish here) to cater for and pay for (taxes) the baby boomers. We are a rich and properous nation, built on the foundations of despots, the unwanted and the feeble. We have a rich and diverse culture. Let us grow more. OK, so a few undesirables may slip throught the immigration nets, but they arrive here every day on o/s planes for 'holidays'.

    You are letting politics into this debate on this forum .. solutions, solutions, solutions NOT politics please.
    Wanderer
    29th Jun 2012
    4:59pm
    I would like to see more decisions in Parliament made on conscience votes instead of political parties. I understand, that as a non-student of political science, I have no understanding of the workings involved. It seems to me though that this is the only way to get the best workable solutions instead of unworkable political solutions. I know that there are many who will say that it would become bedlam BUT is what we've got currently any better? The immigration policies of this country need reviewing entirely as the world changes. Legal immigrants should ALWAYS have precedence over illegal but, for whatever reason illegals are attempting these journeys, they should not be left to drown. Find a SOLUTION that allows legal immigrants to be processed efficiently and illegals to be stopped, returned, or to take the place of the legals in the queues.
    chui
    29th Jun 2012
    3:00pm
    I think the suggestion I heard this morning from Amanda Vanstone( the former Liberal
    Minister ) that all people from boats will not get PR and not allow them to bring their
    family over may work.I believe this policy will stop the boat coming in an effective
    way.



    s
    Irishwolfhound
    30th Jun 2012
    2:34am
    That would be a good deterrent.
    aquatrek
    7th Jul 2012
    4:27pm
    Pls dont take offence to my blah reference way way down further - There are obviously some flaws in the current procedures that could be changed. If there was to be any use made of this debate "somebody" should garner these ideas together and present them as a package to the government. People like Amanda Vanstone are obviously trying their best to make it a workable just solution. Its a frustrating waiting game for us all.
    Abby
    10th Jul 2012
    5:12pm
    Yes I too was impressed with Amanda Vanstone's comments

    No automatic citizenship and they should be sent back to fight the war and bring our soldies back.
    Riddle
    29th Jun 2012
    3:15pm
    I don't care what people think about me when i say my concious says let them come by boat if they are desperate enough. Its beyound politics and its ugly underneath all this hype. The parliment have a problem from both sides it seems... its about keeping refugees from standing on Australian soil. Even the term "boat people" is a vailed attempt to not recognise refugee status as is the term illegal.
    Its not about economics either, because the sheer costs envolved with off- shore solutions are massive compared to normal humane processing.
    One in 4 Australians have not been born in Australia. Be it was it may, this is the modern face of Australia.
    Oh and we are fighting a war in Afghanistan, so isnt there a responsibliity regarding refugees from that region of the world? If there isn't why the hell are we fighting over there?

    We had refugees once from Vietnam and same responce then, big outcry and now we have valuable australian citizens who are 1st and second generation Australians as a result.

    Going back futher we had WW2 and big inflex of Italians who fought on the other side and i can remember the slurrs then....aka wogs. The thing is its just history repeating in a modern world. Nelson Mandela ....apartheid? Is this how we have become? Like South Africa was?
    I can remember how many an Italian family arrived in oz, how they worked had, many on farms, save and saved to educate their children and to eventually buy a farm of their own.

    Solutions? Learn the meaning of torerance in a multicultral society.

    If is about boat trafficers plying a product, which are just like the slave traders of old, well pass a simple law. A law that locks captain and crew up forever and the key is thrown away.

    Maybe look at introducing a certain type of residency visa. A special case one and maybe look at even an indented system of say working on suitable farms for a wage, a roof over head and a education provided ect ect for a minium of x number of years. Might sound harse but its a two way thing that'd be economic viable. At the moment farmers only real sourse of cheaper labour is via packpackers.
    davewatto
    29th Jun 2012
    3:44pm
    These people are not genuine refugees but economic migrants who are jumping the queue ahead of people languishing in refugee camps who do not have the funds or opportunity to pay people smugglers to illegally bring them to this country.
    sexeebear
    29th Jun 2012
    4:27pm
    davewatto
    lets not forget that these financial immigrants had to do unimmaginable things to get the money to pay the people smuglers and often have contributed one way or another to the situation in their countries which theyre running away from.. similar to our political party donations... are those donating happy that the polies have gone off on holiday instead of staying in detention till they do????? what a joke politics is they should not be paid till they fix the situation..... we deserve nothing less ......
    Irishwolfhound
    30th Jun 2012
    2:32am
    Italians, Greeks, Chinese, Vietnamese, English- yes all these people came to this country. They all came to WORK here. This current ship load of useless layabouts are coming here to live off the taxpayers of this country. My family were migrants. We had no dole, no free housing, it was "get out there and get a job" which most people are quite willing to do. Watching an "illegal boat person" on TV complaining about the payments that they got made me livid. Why do these illegals only go to countries that have welfare?? What is wrong with Saudi, Oman, or other Middle east countries where Islam is the cultue and religion? Because they have no WELFARE.
    marron
    30th Jun 2012
    6:07pm
    All of the past migrants have come here and worked, they did not come here and demand we change OUR ways to suit them, they fitted their ways into Australia, with their knowledge of skills we didn't have, their beautiful foods, their willingness to work.An extremely high number of muslims have been here for years and still live off our benefits, they don't work and don't intend to. They tell us to turn off our xmas music, stop children singing carols in kinder/schools, we must let them build their mosques and muslim schools where they want them. They insist that the women can wear their black burquas with small slits for eyes into places we are not even allowed to wear helmets in, How do we know if they are men or women in those outfits? I don't mind the scarves on their heads some of which are beautiful, but the face should not be wholly covered, if they intend to come and live here they should be obeying our laws, we are not allowed to wear face coverings for passport, licence, or other important document photos. We were lucky enough to learn so much off our migrants throughout the years, we had a wonderful multicultural country, because religion was not a problem.
    Airborne One
    29th Jun 2012
    3:55pm
    Australia Is a anthing other than a small country, however, the way to get into this Nation is through the "FRONT DOOR" "NOT" "SLEAZING AROUND THROUGH THE SEWERS" If Ranga would listen to the people and read the papers not just the funnies, she might, just might see what is happening out side her "Cone of Silence".
    We have bloody big Aircraft in the Defence force, put a couple or so Boat Loads into one and give them a flight back to where they came from, this just might make them stop and think about doing what they do now. after that, close Australia's Borders and only allow Tourist Liners and Cargo ships into our Waters, other boats and passangers would be taken back to their point of origine, keep the crews and lock them up in the outback witout privliges for 5 10 years, as I do believe that would take the Shine of the People Trade when they find out what has happened to the crews.
    However, the snivel libiterains would get up and jump up and down saying it's not humane, but, on the other side of the coin, nor is taking a craft to sea, overloaded, under unsafe condition without sufficient Safety Gear. The same snivel libiterains should have a really good look at what they have done to Australia through the Govt.
    sexeebear
    30th Jun 2012
    9:05am
    so true airborne one
    in addition tho where do the do-gooders think the money for this fiasco is comming from ?????? well surprise surprise its commng from the taxpayer at the expense of our own humanitarian programmes for old people, disabled people, diseased people,and the terminally ill... the indigineous population and schools, housing and dental programmes and our overloaded free medicle system and hospitals and maternity wards and all the things we take for granted are being compromised by the lack of funds which are going to fund this fiasco.... when they take life saving drugs off the pbs and fund illegal immigration then isnt it time we, the nation, shouted enough!!!!!!!!!!
    mitchella51
    29th Jun 2012
    3:55pm
    Well said Riddle,
    Alida Talbot
    29th Jun 2012
    4:01pm
    Italians and greek and vietnamese and chinese etc are contributing to society have are and will, but it is plain that so called refugees (albeit not all but a LARGE number) are not will not and have not.... behaviour, culture unlawful radical it is normal for them, yes come here we will feed you give you a roof give you a car ( which they don't know how to drive safely) educate your children and you don't even have to work, if they do want to work, make them sign a contract like my father had to in 1954 - 2 years of working wherever we send you to do whatever we ask you say like IN THE MINES>>>>> in the outback...... no that won't do will it, we are not allowed to do that.... shame and we are now like a weakened spider, lying in the sand and the ants are coming from everywhere attacking..... until we are stuffed!!! Happy holidays
    Riddle
    29th Jun 2012
    4:03pm
    So if the price is right its ok? Ecomomic migrants, instead of que jumpers? oh dear we have such a nice system going in Australia then, based on cash. Due to relentless push for profits we all went "user pay" in the 90's. Catch cry was that Goverments shouldnt fund higher education for australias and so uni's, institutes and taffs designed courses around attracting overseas students and their rich parents purses. It has become not all about education but students gaining residency while paying big money for tailor made education.
    Aloysius
    29th Jun 2012
    4:29pm
    We need a better system for assessing refugee claims. At present, they get the benefit of any doubt to the point where people smugglers have been given refugee status so that they can ply their trade from within Australia. The courts are too politically correct and don't want to risk criticism for doubting unsubstantiated claims. We are seen as a soft touch. Why apply for a migration visa if you can just enter and claim asylum. The coalition proposal that people who destroy their papers should be assumed to be acting in bad faith is commendable.
    Aloysius
    29th Jun 2012
    4:33pm
    Further to this, Aussie tax payers fund all legal support for peole claiming refugee status. The solicitor who constantly campaigns for them on TV is paid by the Aussie taxpayer.
    stdimaga
    29th Jun 2012
    4:30pm
    This article states"geniune refugees". These boat people are not geniune refugees the geniune refugees are waiting their turn and getting further down the line because of these people.
    As to politicans, they should be locked in till they reach a verdict just like a jury. Do the job they are paid for.
    motaleon
    29th Jun 2012
    4:38pm
    Why all the tears for drowned boat-people? They are on an illegal enterprise, travelling in unseaworthy vessels which are overloaded, and refuse the advice to return to port when they send out a distress call after only 20 miles on the journey. How is this the responsibility of anyone in Australia???? With all this do-gooder wailing it is no wonder they take us for a soft touch. Timothy
    Joybells
    29th Jun 2012
    7:24pm
    Well said motaleon. I see 'students' remarks saying we are Morally responsible for the death of these people. What rot. We did not bring them here or were any way responsible for their plight. I am sick of all the do gooders who seem to forget this and seem to think we Aussies should be the fairy godmothers to all these illegal people. I am all for immigration legally but these boats are full of healthy men who should be looking after their family or defending their loved ones back home.It must be stopped and as soon as possible.
    monaghan
    29th Jun 2012
    4:51pm
    It appears people have various thoughts about this problem which is good, but with a PM who has left this country to go to the Qlympic games, it just shows how important she thinks the lives of boat people are, and how her goverment thinks.
    Fiona
    29th Jun 2012
    5:00pm
    Many of my friends came from overseas years ago and they are rather disgruntled that these people get so much from the government. They said they had to jump through hoops to get here and be sponsored, getting no help from the government at all. Maybe if the relatives encouragng them to come had to be responsible for them not so many would be so keen to urge them to come.Maybe pollies should get a spine and pass policies that are good for the country.
    Allan James
    29th Jun 2012
    5:05pm
    The Conundrum ………..what’s the difference?

    If someone was assaulting you and you defended yourself causing the death of the person assaulting you, chances are you'd rightly use the defence of 'self defence'. However, if you went home and returned to the scene with a weapon and killed the person who assaulted you......It's almost a foregone conclusion, you'd probably be charged with murder.

    Now let’s take the case of the so called 'poor refugees'.

    According to my 'Oxford Dictionary' a refugee is someone who 'Escaped to a foreign country from religious or political persecution'.

    Lets take the case of a Muslim escaping from 'where-ever'. They enter Indonesia legally (they are now in a country where their religion is widely practised). They have escaped from their own country and are now in a country where they are not being hounded for their political or religious beliefs............They're home, they are refugees living in Indonesia.

    They decide to leave the sanctuary of Indonesia (remember they are refugees and they entered Indonesia legally). They destroy all their papers, pay big money to jump on a boat and come to the 'lucky country AUSTRALIA' without any papers; upon arrival in Australia they receive all sorts of handouts from the government and if the paint in the refugee camps not the right colour, they can get some smart alec lawyer (on legal aid) to sue the government on their behalf because the colour is effecting their eyesight.

    But hang on a minute, what are they escaping from, they are in Indonesia. No one is persecuting them for their religion, no one is persecuting them for their political beliefs; they are safe; why would they want to run away from a country that practices their beliefs? Why would they want to go to a country that practices Christian beliefs when they don't want anything to have to do with it?

    My gut feeling is: The moment those people step on the boats in Indonesia, they have chosen to 'throw their refugee status away' (they were/are safe in that country). They also chose to break Indonesia's immigration laws by not filling departure forms in (like you and I have to). I'd like to know why, upon arrival in Australia, are those 'so-called-refugees' not charged with being 'ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS' and thrown on the first available flight out of the country. Remember they 'were' refugees whilst they were in Indonesia, they then chose to get rid of their papers; they chose to leave the country that had given them shelter; they chose to pay someone to transport them to Australia; they chose to get on a boat.

    But above all they chose to leave the country that gave them sanctuary, 'INDONESIA'.

    Why is it, honest hard working Australians have to pay taxes to keep those illegal immigrants (not refugees) in comfort while some do-gooder lawyer makes money out of the situation by trying to sue the government, to get more money for those ‘illegalls’ who shouldn't be in this country in the first place.

    WAKE UP AUSTRALIA, THEY ARE 'NOT' REFUGEES, THEY ARE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

    WE SHOULD DISCARD THE DESCRIPTION “ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS” AND REPLACE IT WITH “ILLEGAL ENTRANTS” FOR THAT IS WHAT THEY TRULY ARE. THEN WE CAN TAKE A NON NEGOTIABLE STAND AND SEND THEM BACK FROM WHENCE THEY CAME AND IF THIS UPSETS EITHER THE “DO GOODERS” OR ANY “INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS” SO WHAT?
    Joybells
    29th Jun 2012
    7:28pm
    Well put Allan james. Why can't our elected leader and her party see this as clear
    Irishwolfhound
    30th Jun 2012
    2:24am
    Agree totally with you ! "Real" refugees are welcome this rabble of economic migrants are not.
    Oldie@83
    29th Jun 2012
    5:15pm
    Kali, you've got that right.
    Its odd that they are running away from 'Indonesia" a Moslem country that allowed them in; then risking all to get into Australia. Those who succeed then try and change our way of life hmm? Perhaps the young 'boatmen' should stay at home and join the Military; they could then help the Allies to make life tolerable in their own land.
    Great granny
    3rd Jul 2012
    12:41pm
    ......another that talks sense.
    Watch the young men on the boats coming here, all young and fit, they should be in their homeland fighting for their cause not here trying to change our ways -
    toot2000
    29th Jun 2012
    5:20pm
    You notice how the boat people have a direct line to Australian rescue authorities? A sat phone no less. Only 150 miles out from Indonesia and they rang Australia to come and get them because they were in trouble, we tell them to head back to Indonesia but they refused and kept coming. The boat sank and many lives were lost. I don't know how Julia Gillard can sleep at night.
    EELS
    29th Jun 2012
    5:57pm
    We must demand a Federal Election now! We cannot afford to have this incompetent Labor Government cause any more harm to this country. (Border protection non existent - Rudd made no mention of abandoning the Pacific Solution in the lead up to 2007 election, Carbon Tax - deliberate lie by Gillard before 2010 election, Health Fund Rebate means test to appease the Greens etc etc etc...) Australia will be a basket case if we leave it any longer. I am really scared for our future.
    Great granny
    3rd Jul 2012
    12:42pm
    ....................and so am I
    Thinker&Dooer
    29th Jun 2012
    5:59pm
    I am amazed at the ignorance and tooing and froing to do with the issue of these country shoppers, If you want o REALLY know why Ms Gillard has no intentions of acting at all in this matter is because exactly what is happening suits her big plan to destroy the Australian culture.

    May I suggest you read Agenda 21 for dummies on line also the Lima declaration then you may understand this governments agenda. Respectfully yours
    marron
    29th Jun 2012
    9:31pm
    This is so true, it is also why Ms Gillard and her Government are allowing thousands and thousands of hectares of our prime land to be bought by foreign interests, no questions asked. They are destroying farms/farmers with their policies and taxes, market gardeners are becoming less and their gardens smaller.Ms Gillard still works with her communist views that everyone should be equal ( ly poor) except the ruling powers.Manufacturing, Big/Small Business, anyone and everyone will suffer with this Carbon Tax which is simply for Julia Gillards own Vanity. What an embarrassing situation her and her comrades put Australia in, to think that they could tell other, older countries to take lessons from her and her cronies who borrow over one hundred million dollars a day simply so they can make all these enormous donations to countries, often led by brutal regimes who won't look after their own.
    Sheppie
    29th Jun 2012
    6:13pm
    What a relief to come upon Riddle's post of 29 June, 3.15 pm reminding us of who we are - a nation of migrants, coming here with hope in their hearts, all sorts of backgrounds and nationalities, and many dreadful stories of what they had left (and feelings of uncertainty, no doubt, about their reception in this lucky country), and then what they have given to our country.

    Then what a contrast to read the hateful utterances of Kali sent at 4.40.

    As a descendant of two convicts forcibly migrated from the Old Country in 1834, I'm a 'good old Aussie' who likes to share our wonderful country with the waves of migrants Riddle reminds us about.

    Have we forgotten the virtues of love and compassion and a fair go?

    I feel sorry for the politicians who are wrestling all over the world with the problem of millions of displaced people, and I feel much more sorry for the people themselves.
    Kali-G
    30th Jun 2012
    8:49am
    I reckon that you are white European stock and a christian. Say no more.
    sexeebear
    30th Jun 2012
    9:10am
    exactly kali and more probably well heeled and retired.... actally worse than the immigrants were having problems with
    Anonymous
    2nd Jul 2012
    2:02pm
    Sheppie, just explain why the Labor govt in 2007 didn't leave the Pacific solution in place, until they at least had a working policy of their own.
    It's obvious that the only reason it was dismantled, is because it was a legacy of Howard, and their pride, then and now, wouldn't let them. Worse still now, under Gillard, because she has allowed, by default, the Greens' open door policy to slide in.
    The latest pathetic attempt to appear to be doing something....appoint yet another committee. Is this what we and the taxpayers, pay her $475,000 per year to do?
    biddi
    29th Jun 2012
    7:19pm
    Marron is absolutely right. In some places where all the Muslims
    gather the ambulances can't even get in without police escort.
    Why are there Pakistani 'refugees' coming here? I didn't know there
    was a war going on there? These boat people are cashed up opportunists who should not be allowed to gain entry into Australia. There are genuine refugees who are more deserving. This is all KRUDD's fault for dismantling the border protection policy that was in place and working fine. And some people want him back? OMG. The troubled boats were in Indonesian territory but we still brought them here. What the hell is wrong with this government? As I write, there are 2 more boats on the way. Now the pollies are on a 6-week holiday you can bet the boats are going to come in fast and furious. It's totally out of control. We need an election now - not late next year.
    redbear
    29th Jun 2012
    7:31pm
    What a useless bunch of people we have as our leaders, there is not one of them that I would allow in my house. If my children behaved as they all do there would have been dire concsequence. Every last one of our polictians thoroughly discuss me.
    Waytoopoortobeme
    29th Jun 2012
    9:08pm
    The Governor General needs to step in and sack the bloody lot of them!!!!
    Allan James
    30th Jun 2012
    11:51am
    Waytoopoortobeme, you do know don't you that our G/G has Bill Shorten as a son-in-law and is probably a fully paid up member of the Labor party to boot!? How the hell do you think she got the job in thr first place - jobs for the girls too it seems!!
    Ianqld
    29th Jun 2012
    9:31pm
    Irrespective of how the Government was elected it should be allowed to govern. This is the only issue. Unfortunately tony thinks he is the Govt. And the greens should just abstain. The purpose of the senate is again being abused. If the voters don't like the Malaysian solution the will vote against it at the next election. Let's stop wasting time and let Julia govern the country. U
    marron
    29th Jun 2012
    10:03pm
    Julia can't run the country because she does not put the country before her own agenda. Why is it that everything she has done (99% of which has failed) she has always blamed Tony Abbott for things going wrong. Do you remember or are you aware of when she was a lawyer and Bruce Wilson AWU heavy was her boyfriend, he had been threatening developers in a mob-style protection racket? Industrial peace for payment .....up to $50,000 at a time. The payments went straight to accounts Julia Gillard had arranged while she was working for a prominent Left wing law firm. She was rewarded with$50,000 of renovations to her house and a $25,000 account at a top fashion house.When the story broke, she made one phone call and the story that 'ABC and 'The Australian' journalist Glenn Milne, had spent months carefully documenting Ms Gillards involvement was pulled. The story had been legalled and it ran in 'The Australian' on Monday, August 1st 2011. The ABC (big supporter of Ms Gillard) sacked Glenn Milne. NewsLtd CEO John Hartigan resigned. Both Fairfax and News Ltd spiked the story and pulled broadcasts. Andrew Bolt threatened to resign and Laurie Oakes (Labor Pal) was told 'Not to even think about it, everyone was told to drop the story. Her power in the unions is so strong. She knows too many secrets.This was when she 'threatened' a Media inquiry, saying "There are questions that need to be answered. Larry Pickering paid a price for making the story public, the PM's office had the article pulled from his website and shut down his Facebook page of it as well. Larry now has it back on his website but it can't be put on Facebook. Possibly you may now understand why the Labor Party have been very, very reluctant to punish Craig Thomson. This clearly shows the power of the Unions and the Labor Party.
    Irishwolfhound
    30th Jun 2012
    2:19am
    That was a very good article - !! Thank goodness someone is not allowing the wool to be pulled over their eyes!
    Thinker&Dooer
    29th Jun 2012
    10:12pm
    Interesting thought during this debate about these Country Shoppers children, I would guarantee they are being brainwashed with Ms Gillards Fabian / Socialist beliefs whilst sitting in the air conditioned classrooms that most of our school children do not have(airconditioning that is) however they certainly have plenty of lefty school teachers.
    marron
    29th Jun 2012
    10:19pm
    VERY TRUE>
    Irishwolfhound
    30th Jun 2012
    2:17am
    Who can call this rabble of crying, weak kneed, and brainless morons politicians? I thought I voted for an adult in the election, obviously I was wrong! If you can't stand the stress your job provides, then please for everyones sake LEAVE !!! No wonder we are in such a mess, with this bunch of spineless irresolute wimps in Parliament. Bring on an Election please !!!!!!!!
    AlbertC
    30th Jun 2012
    6:15am
    well well well the way i see it is no good blaming ether side if the political parties put it where it belongs. INDONESIA. they allow them to enter their country and do nothing to send them back and wont do anything to fix it most of their officials are corrupt and allow the smugglers to do as they like . END OF STORY.
    Nautilus
    30th Jun 2012
    7:15am
    The Party system isn't broken. The Greens have blocked Gillard yet again. Nothing new in that.

    The scandal is that the highest paid PM in the world (must be when Julia Gillard is paid more than the US President and the UK PM) and her equally very well remunerated Ministers have ducked the job.

    Fact is, PM Julia Gillard is just as gutless with Greens' leader Christine Milne as she was with Bob Brown before. Why would anyone ever put a vote for the Greens in the Senate?

    Even if the whole mob are evicted from Parliament they still get that fat superannuation and benefits.
    biddi
    30th Jun 2012
    9:08am
    Albert C : you're dead right. What's more, the Indon's must know where these boats are departing from and they do nothing to stop them. Australia is a laughing stock.
    sexeebear
    30th Jun 2012
    9:22am
    this governemnt( and the abott band wagon wont be any better) is so incompetent ( and lets not go to the greens) and corrupt we have no where to go untill we get a new batch of people to run the country which wont happen because the current parties have total control of all situations... she has complete power over everything ... anything bad/wrong she stops us hearing about it...... we need new politians who do not have favours owed and skeletons in the closet and who are not lawyers or bankers etc just ordinary people no side issues and no hidden bank accounts or adgendas.... till then we will be what we are acknowledged overseas to be .. a badly managed country with incredible opportunities but mismanaged.... gina reinhart and clive palmer are wealthy people doing more than their bit for oz cant be wrong all the time.. theyre super critical of the government .. im to old to to be relevant now but we do need change badly, quickley and definalty
    pate
    30th Jun 2012
    9:43am
    What a lot of idiots with one or two exceptions, Mr. Negativity strikes again with all the helpo he needfrom hios deputy, crying & carrying on like a girl. He disgusted me well & truly. He sp[oke about his father being a refugee years ago, that may have been soi but his father came here wit the relative papers required he did niot try to hide his status he did not try to force his ideas on the government nor to y knowledge pay a handsome sum to boat operators to smuggle him in.
    Now he cries he will not agree with any practice that sends a 13year old to Indonesia to be put into detention, yet Jukia TGillard said openly that she would certainly not send any 13 year ld to Indonesia, yet the Liberals still insist that they willo never agtree while Malaysia is on the agenda. Yet Julia has agree to the other half of their deal in so far as reopening Neru.
    Come on you dead heads read the facts.
    marron
    30th Jun 2012
    6:15pm
    You might believe it, but are you a 'dead head' to believe it is the rest of the country who stops Julia Gillards from doing anything?
    Sylvia
    30th Jun 2012
    10:32am
    Well said Allan James, these boats seem to be full of single men, who intend to bring the rest of their families here for a reunion!! isn't it time all these single men running to us for asylem, stayed home and fought for the changes they want in that country? instead of letting others die fighting for their rights? maybe all those men should be given some training and returned to the country of origin to fight for their rights.
    And who keeps their families while they are here? some have to wait up to 2 years to be processed? Some thing fishy that the family can survive with out a bread winner?
    Also when they do get asylem and all that comes with it, the religious problems seem to fade away, and they start wanting us to provide for them to continue with the religion that has forced them out of their own country.
    No papers no entry, and no bringing in the family until they have waited their turn as so many real refugees have to do. We cannot afford to keep on in this way, we will be bankrupt, everyone take a good look at Europe?
    There are many moslem countries that these people can stay in , amongst those of their own faith,and they are passed on the journey here. so Australia should have no concience with this,no papers no entry, that should fix some of them, because they are economic refugees, not in fear of their lives.
    We are decent people here, and are fed up being conned, and seeing our own people struggling.
    No doubt there really genuine refugees , and we will always have the heart to help those, but there are many just taking advantage of our compassion. So unfortunately the rules have to be stricter and adhered to.
    Also Mps should never leave the Parliament to have a holiday when some thing so important is not resolved!
    Look out and see if your MP was amongst those who left! and you know what to do!
    Sylvia
    30th Jun 2012
    10:41am
    If these people cannot stay in some countries because that country has not signed a treaty with the UN, (I think that treaty was introduced in 1956........lots of changes in the world since then) then i think the whole refugee system must be rethought, and we only take refugees from countries bound by the treaty
    aquatrek
    30th Jun 2012
    11:24am
    Non-solutions to the dilemma = Islam bashing or individual politician bashing. If one takes a wider view there are underlying currents at play > World history is full of tidal waves of change = Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Nazism etc The Islamic brainwashing wave is unstoppable as it starts at birth whereas the Christian faith cohort is on the wane; probably due to its many factions. Islam is a holistic male driven system that includes governing the people therefore democracy is an anathema to it. Australia is a fractionated Christian democratic governed country with a party system. The elected representatives come from all spectra of the community. Tony Abbot is a Rhodes scholar and a practicing Catholic whereas Julia Gillard is a lawyer and an atheist - both highly educated and motivated persons. These two elected party leaders represent ideological points of view - one libertarian and the other socialist. Australia's approx 200 years of invasive evolution has seen a fairly well balanced mix of these two ideologies and it has been these factions that have set the rules of the political game; whether the public like it or not. Now we have a true impasse. Labour, with policies good or bad, can hardly govern without intense wheeling and dealing. The track record has an elected leader deposed, a tax that has the whole country economically scared, an optic fibre network that is supposed to economically connect every home on the largest island continent on the planet - and other seemingly mismanaged adventures. Meanwhile the Liberal opposition harry and oppose at every opportunity. It has been said that Ms Gillard and Labour are fighting for their political lives. That brings us back to the refugee/illegal immigrant question - particularly those who are dying literally to get to Australia. Islam has a culture of martyrdom. Therefore death is not percieved the same way as by other faiths. Either the boat smugglers [who also drown] have exceptional marketing skills or the wannabe travellers are illiterate and do not know the risk. Dont get me wrong here - any premature death is a total waste of the homo species effort to survive. How does Australia stop those deaths ? By stopping the boats. It is that simple. The Oakeshott Senate Bill with it's 12 month trial clause was a pathetic attempt at compromise. The previous Liberal policy of mandatory offshore processing at Naru worked. So one must ask what is driving the Labour party to such extremes ? Such as another committee ? Is it just political survival in their own interest - not in Australia's best interest ? Much as I hate to contemplate it but maybe the public should storm Canberra in hundreds of thousands, although that is not in our collective nature. Can/should the Governor General step in again ? The issue seems to have no solution other than an election - now.
    Thinker&Dooer
    30th Jun 2012
    2:22pm
    Yes we need an election now, for those who are interested in acting and not just talking, Sunday 01July tomorrow most capital cities are having demonstrations to demand a new election NOW, If interested look at the Australian Consumers Taxpayer Association CATA on line for details of the times etc in your cities. Hope to see you there. Kind Regards
    slapsy
    30th Jun 2012
    2:35pm
    What's the best way to stop the boats?
    Just give Christmas Island to the Indonesians.They have sucked up every other little island in the region.Some larger ones too.
    As for "Mr." ??? Abbott.His ambititions have taken him over so much that he has lost all common decency.It seems that anything goes to get PM placed after his name.But how can he ever expect to have "honourable" placed before it.
    aquatrek
    30th Jun 2012
    2:46pm
    Thinker&Dooer - a stop the Carbon Tax rally tomorrow when it already becomes law tomorrow ? If you hadnt noticed we all live in police states - the only avenue now open to Australians is to break the law and protest vigorously on the street otherwise the political farce will just roll on and on ad-infinitum regardless of "women & children overboard" scenarios.
    wscifers
    30th Jun 2012
    2:56pm
    I believe that the responsibility for the boat people mess can be laid at the door of the "Faceless Labor Party" apparachiks that deposed Kevin Rudd before the 2010 election. As Rudd's heir, Julia Gillard is also responsible. Had Rudd continued, one of two things would have happened. He might have won, or he might have lost. Either way, the obstuctive influence of the Greens would have been nullified and they would not be in a position to force Julia Gillard's government to "Dance to their tune" and rule Australia effectively in her own right.
    I wish she'd tell the Greens that if they insist on ham-stringing her government, that she will deny the Greens any Labor Party preference votes in the event she has to call an election should they deny her their support in Parliament.
    Thinker&Dooer
    30th Jun 2012
    3:24pm
    Aquatrek We have been to Canberra twice, Blacktown and Sydney etc etc protesting prior to the INTRODUCTION of the Carbon Tax however Ms Gillard and her Cronnies did not want to know about us, She keeps telling us what she thinks is best for us, so again we protest and say enough is enough we want an election, These people who take to the streets all weather own expense are not a bunch of rebels or trouble makers only concerned
    Parents and Grandparents who have worked all of our lives I started work at 14 and retired at 69 and have never ever sought anything from our government but a fair go for Australia, Yes we will protest again and remain civilised as one would expect of any true Australian
    Please do not attend if you do not have honourable intentions and respect for the Australian image
    aquatrek
    30th Jun 2012
    3:44pm
    A rally against a law already in place is utterly futile - a new election will see that law most likely repelled so a rally for an election now is the only option. Yet that is also unlikely to happen as the Labour party would spill their own blood before allowing that to happen. So I will just sit here and fume and wait ...............................................
    aquatrek
    30th Jun 2012
    3:49pm
    As for "honourable" intentions that surely went out the window with that political poisonous snake Carr publicly bagging the High Court's morally, lawfully and politically correct Malaysian decision.
    Thinker&Dooer
    30th Jun 2012
    3:59pm
    aquatrek You are probably on the money in saying a new election will not happen, however I am not giong to sit and fume and wait... so will hit the footpaths and roads tomorrow and let these pollies know the majority of the electorates are not happy,Albeit in vain but at least we are fighting. Hope you have a relaxing day tomorrow. Respectfully yours
    41Alpha
    30th Jun 2012
    6:14pm
    During the last days of Rhodesia, when it was obvious that Robert Mugabe was about to take over, I applied to immigrate to Australia. I was informed that as the country ( Rhodesia) was not recognised internationaly, Australia could not process my application. So I had to migrate to South Africa before I could apply and after many years I was accepted.
    It would seem , gauging by our current government, that all I have to do is enter the country illigally and I would have been welcomed with open arms.
    The message our government is sending out is that it is OK to come here as an asylim seeker. The stupid dicisions the government make now, will have an effect on Australia for ever.
    Perhaps the government should seriously consider laying mines in the sea as a deterrent.Enough is enough.

    Every day I pray that Julia Gillards "Reign of Error" will soon come to and end.
    marron
    30th Jun 2012
    6:25pm
    Well said, I just wish you had been allowed here sooner. That is a part of the problem when all these boat people arrive to receive everything for nothing, the TRUE refugees are not allowed to come in.I would be happy to help and to welcome the poor people who are stranded for years in the refugee camps, dying from starvation, and I am sure they would appreciate our help and not expect us to change our ways. Also people from other countries who have much to offer in way of knowledge and physical work, are not allowed to come here, WHY NOT?
    biddi
    30th Jun 2012
    6:57pm
    "Record asylum boat arrivals for June"
    Read all about it!!!! Read all about it!!!!
    Big 'thankyou' Thinker&Dooer ...... demo's tomorrow demanding an
    election NOW!
    toot2000
    30th Jun 2012
    7:35pm
    I just wish there was something somewhere in our Constitution that would give us the right to chuck out the government if things became very dire, which they are now. Remember when Gough was chucked out, the GG made mince meat of him and his government. Trouble is the GG's son in law is Shorten, so I guess she's not likely to rock the boat any time soon.
    Ianqld
    30th Jun 2012
    7:38pm
    No election. The Govt has been elected according to our system of Democracy. Unfortunately most of the people contributing to this blog have no idea how lucky they are being in Australia. I don't understand how this issue has been blown out of proportion given the small numbers involved. How would you feel for example, having supported the coalition of US, Aust, etc then they leave. I would expect that you would be killed soon afterwards. So have some humanity. Compare this debate to Australia's involvement in wars in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Where we're you then? Perhaps you could remind me how many Australian troops have died in these unwinable wars. Also compare the number of refugees in Thailand, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia etc. to Australia,s intake. Our cotribution is infintisable. Why don' you talk about something really important. This is, compared to war, a non issue. Just let the Govt, get on with governing and then instead of knifing Julia now just, like the rest of us be patient.
    toot2000
    30th Jun 2012
    7:42pm
    You obviously don't get out much, you need to get together with other humans and find out what they are saying.
    aquatrek
    30th Jun 2012
    8:17pm
    The article title is " Boat people - have our leaders failed" ? Are you seriously promoting the Labour party as being successful at leadership in this matter ? After many many months of stuffing about with ideas that have all proven to be useless Julia convenes another committee !! Julia uses only one excuse for the drownings - it is all Tony Abbots fault = f...g ridiculous. The sooner she goes FAR FAR AWAY the better off will be the Labour party and the country.
    Ianqld
    30th Jun 2012
    9:07pm
    Hi Toot you must belong to a very select group. I understand this is an emotional issue. It's how Howard got into Govt. Remember Tampa. What I am trying to is to broaden your horizons. Add aqua treks as well. Nothing is an isolated issue. I note with interest you hav'nt answered my questions. Having worked and travelled in over 80 countries we are all so lucky to live in Australia. It's a great and rich country. Try living in a poor country or one thats been at war or haven't you been past your front gate. 12 million people dying of hunger in Africa and your obsessed with a few boat people. We are supposed to be a civilised country so I suggest that both you obtain a little bit of humanity and either volunteer for the red cross or travel to Afghanistan. Or if you are to scared to go to Afghanistan then try Ethiopia or somila. Still scared try Indonesia or Thailand. Think about being 5 years old and starving and having no mother and not knowing when your father is coming home. Then multiply this type of senario by millions. Learn about being human instead of being selfish. I didn't like Howard (remember work choices) and I don't like Julia but I do respect democracy and will continue to fight for it. Democracy is a very fragile system and needs people to respect it.
    aquatrek
    30th Jun 2012
    9:15pm
    You are indeed a self righteous moron lanqld. I have also lived and worked in 3rd world countries - you are not the only sacrificial one. So dont peddle your sanctimonious crap here pls. Try answering the topic question in an honest manner for a start and you may well immerse yourself into the mainstream of Oz society. Democracy is one step removed from dictatorship and charismatic leaders can change the course of countries. At this point in time Oz is leaderless.
    marron
    30th Jun 2012
    10:25pm
    You sound to me as if you are a follower of Islam, you are not the only person to work /help overseas. Some of us worked in a medical situation helping many people, in various places If you think you are so great go to Afghanistan/Pakistan yourself or go to Africa and help the truly needy people, who are starving and dying because of the BRUTAL so-called LEADERS of their countries. You should think yourself lucky to have been able to work in 80 countries (or even better holidayed), many people can't afford to go anywhere overseas, they are too busy working, earning money for it to be used on illegal arrivals in this country. I think that the Tampa incident was made a lot worse by the media, and the loss of life then was a small number when you think of how many who have drowned under Julia Gillard and her Labor Government. Democracy is dying under Julia and her Union led Party.
    Thinker&Dooer
    30th Jun 2012
    10:45pm
    marron.... Very well said
    Sheppie
    30th Jun 2012
    11:32pm
    I dread to think that the weight of opinion in this correspondence indicates that Australians are a racist, intolerant and utterly selfish people. I prefer to think that the majority of readers would find the violence of the opinions and language straight out of left field (perhaps a small group busy astro-turfing?) and therefore not worth a response. It's so true that evil flourishes while good men stand by and do nothing - or say nothing.

    Most of us cling to Australia's reputation as the land of the fair go, where most people believe that you should do to others as you would have them do to you - our laws and institutions reflect this.

    Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure that most of these violent letter writers would help a neighbour in distress, but they seem to be afraid of these desperate asylum-seekers. Why are they more of a threat than the many over-stayers who come here by air?

    How sad for you that you can't stop the mingling of race and religion, but how dangerous you are in your intolerance.
    aquatrek
    1st Jul 2012
    9:16am
    Your second paragraph unfortunately shows what a hypocrite you are - Islam does not operate under that premise at all. Honour killings, beheadings, stonings, lashings, discrimination against women, non signatories to the UN human rights charters etc etc are still threads of the Islamic fabric. Do you want that to become part of your lifestyle as well ?
    Why dont you also try answering the topic about why the so-called leader of this nation has run out of policies to deal with border protection. Granted the Oz illegal arrival influx numbers are miniscule compared to say the Mediterranean situation - but if Oz doesnt have a workable system then an uncontrolled boat upsurge via Indonesia/Malaysia will see many more drownings.
    Anonymous
    2nd Jul 2012
    2:09pm
    Last refuge in defending the indefensible. Call racist!...How puerile.
    Riddle
    1st Jul 2012
    8:58am
    I wrote a post here expressing tolerance. Tolerance, because we are a multicultral country. Now if Australia as a nation of peoples cannot come to grips with this suitation we will be forever divided, and fractured to our core. I know this, we all know. We all know how this subject can bring out the best and the worst in us all.
    I try to put this in context and yes even i can admit to having fear override sound judgement. To express my thoughts about fear it can bubble up whenever i see a film clip of a country where mass demonstrations are occuring, and mainly when i see its all men, enraged and milling merrily and maddly and some even gun totting. I then transport those images in my mind to a future Australian street or square and i feel fear in my gut.
    To prevent this from happening here in the future is the key. So in effect somehow someway we all must be able to play a part in not allowing this to happen.
    Racial intorance, and religion oh my. Into the valley i tread.

    Not all legally secular states are completely secular in practice.



    I found the following and it sits ok with me.

    Secularism has been inherited by Australia from primarily British influences. But with freedom from traditional British constraints Australia was able, in its first century or so, to take a remarkable leadership role in developing the concepts of social democracy and individual rights, culminating in our fortuitous federation. We could do no better than to use this as the foundation for a sense of proud and coherent national identity.

    So to me, if we are to live in harmony any church or worship including muslim belief and catholic and budist ect ect must not be allowed to influence the laws in this country, but alas i see examples everywhere so it seems a too hard basket for my mind somehow.

    Perhaps there are people of influence out there that can make a difference and help to lead our nation down the right path.
    I know this for sure: immigration into Australia through our front door has happened with (all races and cultures) and in far greater numbers than boat people. This is a fact and this has occurred through successive political parties. This is why we need strong unbiased leadership and i dont see it in our paraliment. Boat people are a small minority in this whole equation!

    Oh and i will Post the below,which i found from the Hindustan Times from Melbourne dated 21June, 2012.

    Latest official census data in Australia has found a boom in Indian population especially with number of Punjabi speaking people rising by over 200 per cent.


    Australian Bureau of Statistics today released the snapshot of the country from information collected in the census on August 9
    last year.


    The census is conducted every five years to gather information on populations for electoral purposes and guide government spending on new infrastructure, community services and facilities such as schools, hospitals and roads.

    This is the 16th census taken in Australia over the past 100 years with about 9.8 million households surveyed on August 9 last year.

    The data revealed Australia's population rose to 21,507,719, up almost two million - or more than 8 per cent - in the past five years, and the median age of the growing population rose from 37 in 2006 to 38 when the census was counted last year.

    The United Kingdom stood as the leading country of birth for the overseas-born population at 20.8 per cent and was followed by New Zealand (9.1 per cent), China (6.0 per cent) and India (5.6 per cent).

    Of the 21.5 million, 24.6 per cent of them were born overseas, up from 22.2 per cent in 2006,
    while 43.1 per cent of people had at least one parent who migrated here.

    While the UK was still the leading country of birth, New Zealand, China and India followed closely behind, the data said adding Hinduism experienced largest proportional growth of the three most common non-Christian religious affiliations.

    People of Indian origin have seen the largest growth increase at more than 14 per cent since 2006, or up almost 150,000.

    The increase in people speaking Punjabi has boomed more than 200 per cent, the data revealed.
    In Victoria, the proportion of people born overseas climbed from 23.7 per cent in 2006 to 26.2 per cent in 2011, with India now the third most reported country of birth in Victoria, making up 2.1 per cent of the population.

    There were almost four million people recorded in Melbourne.

    Census executive director Andrew Henderson said the results highlighted the cultural diversity of Australia's population.

    "Multiculturalism plays a big part in who we are as a nation and we thank all community groups for their participation in the census, and helping to create a brighter future for all Australians," Henderson said.


    So put some prospective in this whole debate please
    Nautilus
    1st Jul 2012
    9:25am
    The point many would argue is that no government has ever sought or obtained a mandate to force diversity on the population. Nor has government ever had a poll on the very large migration over recent decades.

    But isn't the crux of this thread the very serious problem of preventing or at least deterring people smugglers?

    It is the criminal people smugglers and those who use their illegal services instead of arriving in Australia by plane and with the papers they had to enter Indonesia that we are talking about.

    Ex-PM Rudd whose leadership was so reviled by his own colleagues in Parliament that they disgraced him twice by removing him from leadership positions was the leader who destroyed Howard's policy. His policy has failed and Labor have been on the back foot since, with the untrustworthy Greens tripping them at the same time.

    The Greens/Gillard government has really muffed this one. Western nations have a huge problem with economic migrants, whether they arrive in shipping crates or trucks, or in boats as they do in Australia. All we get from Gillard is spin, everyone else is to blame.
    biddi
    1st Jul 2012
    11:25am
    biddi : YES
    aquatrek
    1st Jul 2012
    9:46am
    With over 40 contributors here pls put up your hand for a vote for the Naru solution.
    Aquatrek = YES
    biddi
    1st Jul 2012
    11:29am
    biddi : YES
    marron
    1st Jul 2012
    2:19pm
    YES. YES. YES.
    Thinker&Dooer
    1st Jul 2012
    3:58pm
    YES
    aquatrek
    1st Jul 2012
    4:03pm
    how did you grow that 3rd hand Marron ?
    marron
    1st Jul 2012
    5:55pm
    I have a spare one in case I do something wrong and one gets cut off (when we are taken over by Islam) simply because I looked at a male.
    aquatrek
    2nd Jul 2012
    2:20pm
    I had the privilege [and I mean that] whereby I had a young Saudi uni student as a house guest for nearly 1 year. To see his jaw drop at our way of life, especially the way that women participate in all things: and the arguments that we had about the Islam practice of chopping off of hands if convicted as a thief; were many of the issues that arose. Their brainwashed ideological dogma and the sticking to ancient traditions and olde wives remedies were all exposed. For me it was enlightening and just confirmed my justification of how different they really are. They certainly do not belong here - the people are just like any others on the planet - it is the religion that is despicable.
    Riddle
    1st Jul 2012
    9:53am
    Sure you do have a point, Nautilus. It is a political stuff up on a grand magnitude. Its hard to spin away the challenge to restore the faith of ordinary Australians in a just and fair society, where attention is paid to, more than just economic growth, and where participation results in social capital, a source of riches that advantages everyone.
    toot2000
    1st Jul 2012
    10:41am
    The price of a ticket varies between $4000 and $8000 and depends on the seaworthiness of the boat and how much the Indonesian police have been paid off. Tickets used to be paid in cash but now the refugee only pays a small amount in cash, usually around $500 or $1000 and the rest is given to a trusted third party who pays the balance on their safe arrival in Australia. Mr Ali says that while Australian politicians talk, the price goes up and down. "The price will go down when the government says the door is closed" he said.

    Ewas Bahrami from Afghanistan said it was well known that local mafia run the voyages and are making huge profits. "There are many mafia here, from Afghanistan, Iraq, many mafia here" he said. The boats are in terrible condition, usually worn out fishing boats on their last legs. When customers ask about safety concerns, the smugglers lie about the number of people taking the trip and when they board the boat in the middle of the night, they discover they have been lied to, as more people are crammed on board for a bigger profit.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/well-risk-death-but-not-if-door-is-closed-asylum-seekers-say/story-fn59niix-1226412758568
    Supernan
    1st Jul 2012
    1:12pm
    It is difficult to understand people saying the current Government is illegal. How can it be illegal ? It was elected under Aussie Law. Illegal means outside the laws of the land.
    Why does everyone go on & on about Kevin Rudd ? Yes I liked him. Yes he's a good bloke. But he was voted out by his party. End of story.
    People in Refugee Camps get stuck there for years. Crime, rape, disease, poor sanitation, poor education are rife. If I was stuck there with a family, I'd do all I could to get out, legally or illegally.
    The way to stop the flood of Refugees is make life better in their own countries. Increase our aid to poor countries not cutting it back. Take more refugees - Australia's intake compared to other countries is atrocious. Stop big companies from displacing people with their unscrupulous exploitation of other countries resources. People do not willingly leave their birth place unless life becomes impossible there.
    aquatrek
    1st Jul 2012
    1:54pm
    You have your head in the clouds Supernan - who said on this forum that the Oz Govt is illegal ? As for your "fix" being to improve the quality of life in Indonesia/Malaysia [both Islamic] - you have to be joking. Send them more money - you have to be joking when the bottom strata pensioners in Oz are living below the Oz poverty line. The topic is - have our leaders failed us regarding the boats from Indonesia/Malaysia ? - a yes or no will do.
    marron
    1st Jul 2012
    6:04pm
    The real refugees, who are starving and dying in the camps, are the ones who should be coming here, BUT, those who had homes, business etc. more often are fit MALES who have the money to get on these boats and arrive uninvited for all the free goodies Julia gives them (with our money) Therefore the people who deserve to be here are unable to come here.
    pate
    1st Jul 2012
    2:48pm
    And your comment aqua trek is 9inane - how can you question as to who said the Govt, was illegal when I have read it time & time again, I don't think that to increase our aid to :"these poor people" or any other poor people is the answer. most of them are ruled by a government which is far worse than ours, taking the food & selling it for their own benefits as is the case in Rawanda for instance and I must ask what gave you the idea, that the pensioner id do hard done by. I am a pensioner and certainly can afford to feed myself & clothe & keep myself warm. Even the Carbon Tax doesn't really worry me as we installed Solar panels on our house. and without Government handouts. IO believe that Carbion should have been taxed long ago.
    aquatrek
    1st Jul 2012
    4:01pm
    Unbelievable - yet again the topic is "Boat people – have our leaders failed?
    Cant you read ? oh oh you said that you read so have a go at this lot Pate

    http://melbourneinstitute.com/downloads/publications/Poverty%20Lines/Poverty-lines-Australia-March-2012.pdf and

    http://www.cpsa.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=11&Itemid=38

    That you live comfortably with solar panels as well is very nice to hear.
    pate
    1st Jul 2012
    4:13pm
    Why read any more than the above lot,
    they just talk in circles and a lot of nonsense at that.
    aquatrek
    1st Jul 2012
    4:42pm
    This is a forum designed to debate a topic - so what is your answer based upon the diverse rantings and ramblings from the above rabble [including moi] - a yes or a no and do you have a solution such as Naru = offshore processing thereby guaranteeing the people smugglers that their cargo will not set foot over our borders unless proven to be legitimate asylum/refugee seekers [and that is a hellish job because they destroy their identity papers].
    aquatrek
    1st Jul 2012
    5:49pm
    I am an atheist but this caught my ever roving WWW eye dear pate

    http://www.catholicreligiousaustralia.org/ndex.php/justice-network/what-we-do/457-living-in-poverty

    maybe those rose colored glasses have blinded you ?
    Thinker&Dooer
    1st Jul 2012
    4:49pm
    Pate if you have children or grandchildren you should be very worried about the Carbon Tax it is not going to be your saving grace that you have solar panels, Ignorance is bliss
    you are entirely off track with your comments, sounds like you may be a member of Getup if not you should join you have the same mentality...With respects
    aquatrek
    1st Jul 2012
    5:50pm
    How was the rally ? I dont live in a major city but spent time today attempting to debate the above topic [very very difficult]
    toot2000
    1st Jul 2012
    6:08pm
    LABOR MPs are urging Prime Minister Julia Gillard to consider the reintroduction of temporary protection visas or even scrap the Malaysian solution if it means striking a compromise to deter boat people.

    Deeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!
    Sylvia
    1st Jul 2012
    7:27pm
    This is a desparate time for the Western World, we have to turn the tide of this invasion, I dread to think how our Grand Children will survive , the men who died fighting for our freedom and freedom of speech and thought, must be turning in their graves,
    To honour strangers, Thou dids't wreck thy land.
    Thinker&Dooer
    1st Jul 2012
    8:57pm
    Thanks aquatrek for your interest regarding the Rally in Sydney today, even though we all know the media will brush it to one side,it is our way of letting that mob in Canberra know some of us are willing to make a noise about the fact they have taken a wrecking ball to our country. We have worked long hours little renumeration since the day we were of age to become employable, most unable to have the opportunity to have a university education
    or the time that allows one to end up with a that Law degree etc the fortunate ones would never considered doing a days work in their lives or run a business or carry any responsibility with consequences, now look down there noses, after utilising bullish and dishonest tactics to gain government, which they have been well groomed for to obtain the top jobs, then victimise the people who do not depend on welfare because they have so much wealth
    that they are no longer entitled to, so they want to penalise them and give it to the boatloads they are allowing to illegally enter this country and before we know what is happening the illegals are quickly given residency and citizenship in Australia the country we have worked so hard build so they can get the votes from these invaders.In the meantime these illegals dont care that they are taking away the freedom of the poor dear souls who are REAL refugees sittiing in camps around the world who would consider it a priviledge to come to our country and they would be more than welcome.
    Yes aquajet Our so called leaders "Have Failed Australia" we are being betrayed.

    Please read Agenda 21 for Dummies and the
    Lima Delaration then you may understand the Gillard Mobs Agenda
    With Repect
    marron
    2nd Jul 2012
    11:04pm
    Thank you to those who marched in the Rally, on behalf of those of us unable to be there.
    Thinker&Dooer
    1st Jul 2012
    9:02pm
    Apologies for mispelling ....With Respect
    Nautilus
    1st Jul 2012
    9:14pm
    Why is it that the 'Progressive' Left and the lunatic green Left, have such an idealised, almost idolatry view of economic migrants, but such a hatred for their own countrymen and I use countryMEN advisedly?

    Of course the Left have disgraceful attitudes towards the elderly too and are forever trying to boot them out of their family homes and hopefully use death duties to remove the remainder of their assets on their passing.

    Does it take a brick Council dunny to fall on their heads to have them realise that the criminal boat smugglers are organised crime and make the phone call to their criminally cooperative contacts in Australia to contact authorities as soon as the boat has left dock in Indonesia?

    Why would anyone who has entered Indonesia legally with papers 'lose' the documents if they are in fact refugees as they claim?

    Does the Left also realise that an unintended consequence of the actions of the Greens/Gillard government has been that Indonesia is now happy to let all of those so-called asylum-seekers, but in fact illegal migrants, depart their shores for Australia? So much so that the Indonesians sayb that it is Australia's propblem? They are right in that Australia is contributing to the problem by giving everything including permanent residence and family reunion to all who arrive.

    Why is it that European countries can identify and return a large proportion of illegal economic migrants in the 'refugee' numbers, but Australia cannot?
    YOURLifeChoices Staff
    2nd Jul 2012
    9:02am
    The debate on this issue shows a strong level of interest.
    Even more interestingly, my original blog was not about the left, right or middle - but whether our leaders (collectively) have failed us.
    Which I believe they have.
    Another interesting point, when the topic of the carbon tax is raised.
    A rally in Sydney attracts 4000 people.
    A rally in Melbourne attracts 100.
    A tale of two cities and two different points of view indeed!
    Riddle
    2nd Jul 2012
    9:38am
    lol Debbie, interesting although there may be more points of view, because you left out say, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth and Hobart. Oh dear i may be self centered, because even i failed to think about Alice, and it is perhaps the real centre of Australia.
    ps....is centre right? as in real centre of Australia or should it be center?
    student
    2nd Jul 2012
    10:27am
    We, the media and public and politicians, do not humanise those coming to Australia via illegal means. Not only do we as Australians have a moral duty to help asylum seekers, we also have an international duty to help. It's easier to let the asylum seeks drown if we dehumanise them and hate them for their religion (we automatically assume they are Muslims.) However, these are human beings , human beings needing help, fleeing from God knows what horrors. Are they fleeing from 'waiting camps'? Yep, there are a few bad eggs in the basket, but we also have our 'home-grown' bad eggs.

    We are a small country with people who have BIG hearts. Australia needs new, young blood. I think the original question was along the lines of :

    "Are our politicians letting us down on asylum seekers"??

    This has nothing to do with the carbon tax, it's about people suffering and dying while politicians go for o/s junkets ( and are NOT in danger of drowning!!) Our politicians are a reflection of the people of the nation, and I for one feel the politicians have NOT represented me fairly.

    See the asylum seekers (AKA Boat People) as human beimgs needing help, deperate human beings. Australians are supposed to give anyone a go ... stand up and be counted Australia .... I do not believe you are so narrow minded not to be able to see the benefits to ALL Australians by welcoming the asylum seekers to Australia. We are a big land, we need their help.

    Give 'em a go, mates.
    Abby
    10th Jul 2012
    7:53pm
    It is invasion by stealth
    pate
    2nd Jul 2012
    10:57am
    If they want a go from me I'm afraid there is only one way in to the country & it is not by leaky boats from wherever they are coming.
    Grateful
    2nd Jul 2012
    12:18pm
    Yes Sylvia, I also see that as the issue that should be tackled immediately and it has nothing to do with politics or religion.
    There is a massive inconsistency when the young men and women of other countries, including Australia, risk and too often lose, their lives to protect people in Afghanastan and Iraq, when Iraqi and Afghan, perfectly able, young men predominantly occupy the boats.
    I would immediately tell Iraq, Afghanastan and particularly Indonesia, that NO able bodied man between the ages of 18 and 30 will be accepted as a refugee and returned immediately to their homeland to do what they expect others to do for them i.e. fight for their own rights. I see those young men as being cowards not refugees and should be treated as such without ANY regret.
    Crunchy
    2nd Jul 2012
    1:39pm
    I am of the opinion that if they are Muslim, they should go to a Muslim-ruled country that is based on their variety of Islam. For example, Sunni to Sunni. If they are happy with Sharia Law, let them go to that sort of country.

    By all means, let's welcome Christians to Australia. Regardless of their Church, unless it's one of those dangerous fake Christian sects like David Koresh started.

    I believe it's only a matter of time before the more radical members of Islam in the Western World rise up and commit atrocities. It's already happened in the US, with Muslims stoning (literally) Christians.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/allahu-akbar-shock-video-shows-muslims-allegedly-stoning-christian-protesters-in-michigan/

    You might also see that the local Police weren't too happy to intervene, and the Police Chief is a Muslim.

    Can you imagine the outcry if the position was reversed, Christians stoning Muslims, and a Christian Police Chief refusing to intervene. Boy! Would they get it in the head!

    And this is what we have in our secular society. 'What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine.' attitude with extra brownie points if you are an atheist or belong to a non-Christian minority religion. Lovely.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    2nd Jul 2012
    2:10pm
    good lawdy - next you will be peddling creationism onto this blog about "have our leaders failed us?" Dominus tecum = may the Lord be with you - try Namaste instead Leonie because the Hindus have hundreds of gods whereas yours was born out of hypocrisy = miracles indeedy haha
    Crunchy
    2nd Jul 2012
    1:46pm
    Oh, by the way, the 'Prophet' Mohammed, headed up a lot of Christian killing when he first decided to push his new religion, which has not stopped. Remember 'Islam or the Sword'? And then there's the fact that in the Koran, Mohammed instructed Muslim people that any agreement with a non-Muslim is NOT binding. And that still stands.

    Also, it is against Islam to criticise or question the Koran.

    Check how the Bereans engaged with Paul in the New Testament. Entirely different.

    Allah is quixotic in how he deals with those under judgement. The Christian God is very clear and not dependent on how God feels at the time. The only guarantee a Muslim man has for getting into Paradise is if he kills in the name of Islam.

    Compare that with the Sermon on the Mount. A tad different.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    marron
    2nd Jul 2012
    11:34pm
    The 'great' Prophet Mohammed, took a six year old girl as his wife and supposedly only consummated the marriage when she was nine yrs old, but if you google into Islam you find out that when she was six, he was doing what they call 'thighing' her, which meant he didn't actually penetrate, but was extremely close to it. When he took her to his home at six yrs old, she was allowed to go to her parents home to play with her sisters and friends, playing very young childrens games, then he would take her home for his 'thighing' sessions etc. Is this why the Males rule and can do what they like to females with no blame? How can they worship a male who started the 'religion' himself and decided on all the rules against the good of females. It is very interesting reading when you google Islam and read many, many items written by Muslims themselves plus infidels (non-muslims) writings.
    Nautilus
    2nd Jul 2012
    1:55pm
    The red carpet is out for migration to the land of 'Wonderful Centrelink' (a quote from one of Jenny Brockie's Insight programs) and Medicare.

    Th Greens want to top that by giving free plane rides and there would still be people smugglers using boats.
    Crunchy
    2nd Jul 2012
    2:17pm
    How is it 'hypocrisy', aquatrek?
    Have you swallowed the dominant paradigm?

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    2nd Jul 2012
    2:26pm
    hypocrisy = Insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have. Son of god my arse. The tribal world has a long history of fanatics who are at times dominant and at the rate that they are out-breeding so called Christians Mohammed [The Arab prophet who, according to Islam, was the last messenger of Allah (570-632)] will be the new world "god".
    maximus
    2nd Jul 2012
    3:03pm
    I totally agree with 'Great granny', absolutely gobsmacked true!!
    Sylvia
    2nd Jul 2012
    3:16pm
    the Moslem religion is mass brainwashing, it is a means of control ,they are not allowed to think for themselves as this could be dangerous, but they are allowed to make women subservient, they are allowed to disfigure , they are allowed to murder some one who does not share their? beliefs,surely if Allah is their God he would be appalled that they could take these laws into their own hands, for surely Allah would have made men and woman as he wished them to be, he would have intended that they love one another, it doesn't make sense that God would allow any one to treat his fellow man in this way? It seems that Moslems are afraid to question this? Why are they afraid to ask these questions. And it seems that even the men are only given power over their woman folk, When they should be equal with them, and most men would agree, and not follow blindly.
    aquatrek
    2nd Jul 2012
    3:29pm
    well said Sylvia - ALL religions and their dogma and rituals throughout history are written by men predominantly for men so that they have control over peoples lives. It is a testosterone driven animalistic power urge. Those that are gullible and obediently and literally follow are similar to those who can be hypnotized - even some top level scientists have faith in monotheism and even polytheism. Some have labelled it the "god wire". If you are fortunate enough to not have it you have the capabilities to make your own moralistic societal decisions and the capacity to oppose those religious impacts. That's the end of my religious rant. Bring on the next election asap.
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    11:13am
    Um, aquatrek, Stalin, Pohl Pot and Hitler made their own moralistic societal decisions and had the capacity to oppose those religious impacts.

    I notice also, that you have gone back on your word again. You are still ranting religiously. Goodness! If you can't trust a true atheist, who can you trust? What is society coming to if an atheist won't stick to his morally superior 'word'?

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    marron
    4th Jul 2012
    10:23pm
    I think Aquatrek was speaking to Sylvia....... It is an EVIL religion that tells Father, Brother, Husband, Uncle, etc. that it is okay to KILL a daughter, wife, mother, sister, etc. simply because they Love someone who is not a Muslim, or because they leave the house without a MALE family member to spy on them. Or for even sillier reasons. When a female is raped, she is punished by being stoned or with a lashing or death, simply because the male RAPIST and a few of his MALE mates say she made him want her, or perhaps she looked at him with a certain LOOK in her eye. And they call him 'ALLAH/GOD' how dare they use those words, GOD would never tell them to KILL, Who does tell murderers,despots, terrorists to kill? Why doesn't someone stop it?
    Grateful
    2nd Jul 2012
    3:51pm
    How this has turned into such a "religious' rant is not only demeaning but somewhat hypocritical. Surely, if those that are denouncing the teachings of the "Moslem religion" should take greater heed of the teachings of Jesus Christ when he asks us to "love ONE ANOTHER as I have loved you." He doesn't say love one another unless they are Moslems. So, those who want to turn this into a bitter anti Moslem harangue, let them cast the first stone!!!!
    aquatrek
    2nd Jul 2012
    4:14pm
    how are you coping peering out from under the pile of rubble ?
    marron
    2nd Jul 2012
    11:52pm
    Why do you assume that every one else believes in Jesus Christ, I was brought up to believe if you didn't follow God and his son Jesus, then you were wicked, --as I grew up and with an adult mind, thought about many of those christians who attended church every Sunday (we went twice, sometimes three times) I had to wonder, about the men I knew were adulterers(not with me) one of our ministers announced from the pulpit that he and another parishioner (her husband was sitting in the congregation) had been having an affair since she had gone to him for guidance with marriage problems, and that they were both going away together. I saw the hypocrites in the churches, and saw their behavior out of the church. There was a family member, a 'born again' christian who used to preach at and to everyone, had an affair for some time, denying it to his wife, until their daughter intervened and told him to stop, then a few years down the line while his wife was lying dying he bought new clothes (quite a few) to go out with the new 'lady?friend', whom he moved into the house within a couple of months, then married within a few months. There are many types of christians, but it is the religion of Islam that believes it is okay to kill any non-muslims.
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    2:53pm
    Grateful, pointing out the Truth, which is what Jesus did with the Pharisees and Sadducees, does not make me a hypocrite. This 'casting of the first stone' was directed at people who believed in the Mosaic Law.

    If I do not point out the Truth, I am letting people walk into darkness. What do you believe Jesus would think of that?

    I love the sinner, not the sin. I am concerned with the violence of Islam, which, unfortunately, is very clearly documented, not once, but daily.

    Christianity, in its pure form, is Love and Justice combined. Islam, on the other hand, is judgemental and hate-filled.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    3:08pm
    Dominus tecum over to the blog on Scientology and you will surely run amok a'smoting, a'smiting, a'fearing, beholding, repenting and converting ad infinitum with your sanctimonious righteous unjustifiable haranging depressing luuuurv gggggggeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzus
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    7:33pm
    It's only depressing you, aquatrek, because you aren't one - yet. And you harangue me, it's just that you don't see it as sanctimonious, righteous or unjustifiable. And I don't get depressed by what you write! lol

    Um, hate to say this, but Scientology is as far away from Christianity as Buddhism is. I presume (perhaps too much, given your ignorance of education on the matter) that you have researched Buddhism and Scientology?

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    2nd Jul 2012
    4:07pm
    So far that is 4 votes for the Naru solution - common you rabble of bloggers - put your text where your mouths are !! Vote for a SOLUTION.
    ANNIE
    2nd Jul 2012
    4:10pm
    We as Australian should be able to put all politicians on a leaky boat and send them way out to sea until they come up with a solution to the problem with the boat people. Then we see something done in a hurry.
    aquatrek
    2nd Jul 2012
    4:12pm
    I'll take that as a Yes vote for Naru then ?
    Grateful
    2nd Jul 2012
    4:24pm
    Aquatrek.. Count me in as a vote for a "solution".

    Can't wait to see what that "solution" turns out to be, but,am sure that it won't come out of bigotry and racism. Seeing that many bloggers are so "religious," maybe part of the solution might be if they started praying for one.
    aquatrek
    2nd Jul 2012
    4:31pm
    Thats the funniest response on here yet by a mile. The day that you can provide evidence that prayers actually have an effect I will join up hahahahahahahahaha
    Grateful
    2nd Jul 2012
    6:03pm
    Sorry aquatrek, but, from the sound of your rantings, I think that it just might be too late for you.

    By the way, it is the "Labor" party and the island is "Nauru".
    Sorry about being ACCURATE which seems out of your league.
    aquatrek
    2nd Jul 2012
    7:57pm
    so so so sorry for incorrect txt spelling Grateful pls pls pls forgive me - how many "hails" or "beads" or "incantations" do I have to do ? Do I light a candle ? What is the dogmatically correct procedure ? Surely I am not too late to "learn" - if I dont learn will I still go to "heaven" ? What about that one with the virgins ? No no - that means my premature demise hehehe
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    11:17am
    aquatrek, a simple apology, sincerely meant, is usually sufficient. lol I believe you have lost your candle, mate, or the wax has built up between your ears.

    It is not the learning that does it. It is the admitting of sin and asking for forgiveness, the coming down from being high and mighty and admitting that you are not all things to all people or even yourself.

    If you have not asked Jesus into your heart, you will always think your demise is premature, Sweetie, even if you live well into your next century.

    And yes, Grateful, I'll happily keep on praying for you. And aquatrek. God thought enough of you to make you.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie

    2nd Jul 2012
    4:25pm
    I agree with most comments above I would like to add 1 that has not been mentioned.

    No papers no entry this would most probably weed out the ones that have something to hide then again they would probably be forged
    biddi
    2nd Jul 2012
    6:43pm
    Yes, forged. By even more crooks in Indonesia.
    Aloysius
    3rd Jul 2012
    1:17pm
    As I mentioned earlier, the Coalition has announced that persons who destroy their papers will be assumed to be acting in bad faith.
    toot2000
    2nd Jul 2012
    4:46pm
    It's now in the hands of Angus Houston, Paris Aristotle and Michael L'Estrange. They might rule out both Nauru and Malaysia for all we know. I notice the PM said their findings would be very "convincing" she wouldn't commit to accepting their verdict.
    Aloysius
    3rd Jul 2012
    1:19pm
    This committe was described as "outsourcing the prime ministership"
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    2:11pm
    brilliant satire - when the rats away the mice will play
    Abby
    10th Jul 2012
    7:57pm
    It is just another way of spending Taxpayer money, as with other labor schemes results are not necessary - wonder how much these people are getting paid /
    Kali-G
    2nd Jul 2012
    4:55pm
    There is a simple answer to all this illegal entry to Australia.
    All boats are to be refueled and TURNED BACK.
    No ifs No butts.
    No more Muslims Taliban etc....
    Close Christmas Island.
    Send all back pronto.
    marron
    2nd Jul 2012
    11:54pm
    Good Idea.
    Abby
    10th Jul 2012
    7:58pm
    We should vote you in as the next Prime Minister
    Crunchy
    2nd Jul 2012
    5:26pm
    aquatrek, there are still far more Christians than Muslims in the World, and we do give people a choice, at least, these days, we do.

    Also, yes, I am Christian. I am also Human, so, therefore, imperfect. Tell me, aquatrek, given that all Christians are, necessarily, imperfect and, therefore, hypocrites, if Christianity made us perfect, would you forgive us? Would you, perchance, join us? lol

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    2nd Jul 2012
    7:33pm
    As for the indoctrine that all Christians are sinners and need forgiveness that is a lot of man-derived drivel. Add to that the concept of a "perfect' homo sapien then you have stepped over the serious dotted line into pure farce. As the sole remaining upright gaited ape species [Neanderthals ceased 20k ago] who repeatedly slaughter each other in the name of religion that does not bring forth any confidence that we will evolve to be better at cohesive cohabitation. Christianity only gained European dominance around the Crusades circa 1000 and then post the 1500's after the plague had wiped out about 30% of Europe. Very cruel powerful men used a Christian based reign of terror that western societies are only just getting over [by conveniently forgetting the past]. Islam's reign of terror seems to have just begun. That the largest Islamic populated country is an Oz neighbour; a neighbour who also seem to not actually condone but to not seriously fight the corruption that allows the people smugglers to operate is what worries most Oz. I repeat - western democracy is a contradiction to Islamic principles. Namaste.
    41Alpha
    2nd Jul 2012
    6:59pm
    I woke up this morning, switched on the TV, watched the news......Bugger ,Julia Gillard is still in power. How depressing
    Thinker&Dooer
    2nd Jul 2012
    10:14pm
    It could have been a double Bugga 41Alpha you could have seen K Rudd and Julia..............
    AlbertC
    3rd Jul 2012
    6:45am
    do you realise that most of these refuges ? are young males who come here rather than fight in their own country they expect our boys to fight . if these males are under the age of 28 they should be returned to their country and origin and fight for their freedom instead of our young men doing it for them. have a nice day.
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    8:25am
    Funny thing is, aquatrek, more people were killed in the 20 Century by atheists than in the preceding years by Christians. Hitler was an atheist (contrary to popular belief, do your homework if you want), Stalin, Pohl Pot. These wonderful Homo Sapiens (!) of yours do amazing things in the name of hate.

    In Proverbs, we are told that Wisdom, idealised, is a woman. lol

    Given that Humans have a tendency to lie (have you met one yet, including yourself, who does not?), steal, cheat, lust, are you saying we do not sin? Are you then saying that it is alright to do so? If it is, insofar as you are concerned, you have no basis on which to criticise ANYONE else.

    If it is not alright to do so, then where do you, aquatrek, draw the line? Sin is sin is sin. Regardless of whether it is a priest/pastor/nun/Julia Gillard/Quentin Bryce/you/me/Grandma, whomever, it is still sin and we ALL do it. Like you, I have hurt more people with my mouth than with my hands, often the people I love most in the World, but including those I barely know. I have been injured hugely (emotionally) by a couple of pastors, but it is Jesus' Love for me, conditional ONLY on my confessing my sins, directly to Him, and asking Him into my life, that makes my life so much better than before I became a Christian.

    That does NOT excuse any wrongdoing that I do, either in the past or in the future.

    Looking at God's Love for me and how He is the only God that was tortured and died for me (and for you), not one of the other supposed gods have done this, I know I must needs do my best NOT to hurt others.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    9:24am
    I appreciate your dissemination of the primate homo sapien species. Some species exhibit "sinful" acts, but usually associated with the urge to kill and consume but humans seem to be the only ones that embrace hatred, occasionally with a zealous passion. Meanwhile your missionary designed and built "god" wiring is high quality multi-cored and strongly sheathed from interference and unlikely to suffer from overload or melting. But your self proclaimed visionary "god" and his personal 'boys only' club of disciples did nothing for me or for anyone else - its all in your soon to be extinguished cerebral mind. I much prefer my own particular individual brand of freedom of thought. Namaste.
    toot2000
    3rd Jul 2012
    8:48am
    Now we learn that the people smugglers deliberately scuttled two boats last month, killing 94 people. Our military strongly suspect the first vessel to capsize on June 21 was deliberately turned over so survivors could cling to the upturned hull. Charming!
    Grateful
    3rd Jul 2012
    9:37am
    Yes toot2000. And THAT is the great weakness in returning boats to Indonesia as is suggested by so many as a "solution". These people smugglers are ruthless. They have absolutely NO consideration for those that get on their boats, which, not surprisingly, are not crewed by the actual smugglers but usually by very poor people that are attracted by the pittance that they receive from the smugglers. It is a "tactic" that if there is any risk of the boat not arriving at Christmas Island, including being returned to Indonesia, the crew is instructed to scuttle the boat to FORCE the passengers to be recovered. It is ruthless, but, sadly, VERY effective, as people floating in the water makes highly emotive T.V. and newspaper coverage !!!!
    And today we see another Australian soldier die in the protection of the Afghan people, while we see hundreds of young Afghan men arriving in Australia as "refugees"!!!
    As I posted yesterday and re-stated by AlbertC, the very first thing that the government must do is to declare that ALL male Afghan or Iraqui between the ages of 18 and 30 that arrives on a boat will be treated as a deserter and returned to their country immediately and banned from future acceptance into Australia. THAT will go a very long way of certainly reducing the number of people boarding boats.
    And how hypocritical is the argument from the Opposition??
    They are in full support of Australian soldiers risking their lives in Afghanistan, but, we should never send people like those young Afghan men to Malaysia as their "human rights" would be endangered!!! What a lot of political hogwash!!! What about the "human rights" of the 33 young Australian soldiers that have now died in Afghanistan????
    Ask Mr Abbott to explain that and not waste your time criticising each other on these forums.
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    9:48am
    This not being a critique forum but supposedly a debating forum you sure are a bigoted Liberal party basher !! Labour is as much a party to the USA alliance and the UN sanctioned war as anyone else [except for the much smarter Kiwis]. And PREACH - oh my gods - I bet that you are an ex-teacher and a church warden to boot.
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    11:33am
    From above - As I posted yesterday and re-stated by AlbertC, the very first thing that the government must do is to declare that ALL male Afghan or Iraqui between the ages of 18 and 30 that arrives on a boat will be treated as a deserter and returned to their country immediately and banned from future acceptance into Australia.
    I am confused by your "logic". Dont send them back to Indonesia when it is safe to do so but for Oz to fund boats/planes to return them to their respective homelands. Where will this "processing" take place ? In between "save the heathen" sermons by you on Christmas Island [nice christian pun there]? hahahahaha I hear that Nauru has a pleasant fruitful ambiance. Namaste.
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    9:04am
    Yup - profit before people. What a surprise - not.
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    9:42am
    The evolution of humans must surely be the most dangerous natural experiment ever let loose on this planet. A multi-faceted species gone viral. History shows that the species will do absolutely anything that pops to mind. Those thoughts and ensuing actions, both individual and grouped, occur whether educated or not, god wired or not. Last night, Q&A plus the Lateline Prof Garnautt interview [he is an economist garnered [nice pun there hehe] by 'Labour' to advise on the science of climate change plus he sits on the board of OkTedi one of the biggest polluters] = what a farce], illustrated the huge differences in mindset that arise when ideology rules. Lenore Taylor, National Affairs Correspondent for the Sydney Morning Herald; seemed to be the only rational Q&A panelist present
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    9:34am
    Um, aquatrek, I don't know which Bible you have been reading, but it was WOMEN who were the first witnesses to the Risen Christ. The culture of the time, in common with those of the rest of Eurasia (and many to this day in non-Christian forged cultures) believed that women were not authentic witnesses, could not be trusted to tell the truth and hence were ineligible to speak at trials.

    What this meant, having been embedded in the culture, was that the women were not believed.

    But the Truth by which Christianity MUST hang, has this witnessing by the women in the Bible - for all of that time and other chauvinistic cultures to ridicule.

    You seem to be suffering from some incredible misconceptions. Jesus showed up the 'Boys' Club' when he hauled them over the coals as Mary poured her pension investment over His Feet and wiped Them with her hair.

    It was not the only time.

    He often showed mercy to women in a culture where they were considered, at best, second-class citizens, viz. how easy it was to divorce and discard women. The same sort of ideology that states, in some countries, that it is preferable to abort a foetus if it is female. The same sort of ideology that believes that girls become women at their first period and should be married off before a male realises their adulthood and rapes them for the expression of his domination. The same sort of ideology that believes that a woman 'soiled' by rape is to blame.

    Jesus was totally against the dominant paradigm.

    My mind may go, but my soul lingers on.

    My God prefers that I choose Him. I can choose to sin or choose not to do so. I have more Freedom with Jesus than I ever had before I chose Him.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    9:58am
    Hallelujah, Eureka etc etc etc I HAVE THE SOLUTION !!!!!!!!!!!
    We will organize a Life-Choices whip-around and get you an Indonesian Hercules [we gave then a couple yesterday] one-way flight, absolutely loaded to its ceiling with Bibles, to Christmas Island. I guarantee that within 1 week all of the smuggler boats will change course for Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Phillipines & China !!
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    9:55am
    I love the idea of any Human Being being 'rational', aquatrek. Contradiction in terms in atheism and agnosticism. We change our morality to suit our circumstances and then explain it all away, logically to us, but inconsistently to so many others. When we use our self-generated 'logic', we fail not only ourselves, but also those around us and our Earth.

    I'm a Christian Greenie (and, no, the terms are not mutually exclusive!), God having told our forefather, Adam, and our foremother, Eve, to look after His Creation, and also going on Proverbs Chapter 12, verse 10.

    I believe we're living in the best possible country at the best possible time, bar Eden before the Fall. No wonder so many want to live here!

    BTW, you did know that there are varieties of garnet that are green, didn't you?! Another bad pun. Or, as my Grandfather was wont to say, "Even if that was good, I wouldn't like it!"

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    10:03am
    You are a hoot - maybe Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Canada etc etc etc would strongly disagree with your bigoted choice of Oz as being just after ficticious Eden on the "I wanna live there" preference list. This drivel is keeping me from my "to do" list so I must desist hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah oh hahahahaha
    Sheppie
    3rd Jul 2012
    11:16am
    Wow! Fair go, maties! We need cool heads and empathy if we are to solve the problems of displaced people. We've all got prejudices and passions about one thing or another, but we can't just let them rip.
    Grateful
    3rd Jul 2012
    1:02pm
    Yes Sheppie. Will any of this "religious" and racist diatribe solve this very serious problem? It is such rantings that has prevented logical argument coming up with that "solution." It is all about certain members of Parliament kowtowing to "populist" diatribe to maintain a "majority" in the Opinion Polls. How sad. Those who pander to "populism" has reduced this highly emotive problem from receiving the appropriate balanced discussion and ultimate resolution.
    And aquatrek, you have sadly misread my last post. I said that 18-30 year old Iraqui and Afghani males who are found on these boats should be treated as deserters and immediately returned to their home country and not let the young men of other countries do their fighting for them. "Processing" them as "refugees" is the furthest thing in my suggestion. My "processing" of those deserters would be to either jail them in their homeland as deserters, or, send to military training centres and forced to bear arms until THEIR problems are resolved. Running away won't solve THEIR problem and until THEIR problem is resolved we will continue to have genuine refugees, but, they are a diffent argument altogether.
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    1:28pm
    Either your glasses are smudged or you dont understand English - quoting you "I said that 18-30 year old Iraqui and Afghani males who are found on these boats should be treated as deserters and immediately returned to their home country" unquote I really am trying to grasp your logic here - they have no papers so how will they be processed under your scheme ? duh
    pate
    3rd Jul 2012
    1:37pm
    I think what she said was sensible and got to agree with her, smudged glasses or not.
    These boat people who arrive here with no papers should be sent back immediately to Indonesia if nowhere else. after all that is ore than likely where they came from, inspect their leaky tubs & judge for yourself. I for one will not argue.
    toot2000
    3rd Jul 2012
    2:58pm
    The Indonesian Pesident thanked Julia Gillard for freeing 7 Indonesian crew last week who were minors but says there are 215 Indonesian crewmen in Australian jails and he wants another 54 released.
    Why is it that when Indonesia says jump, Australia says 'How high?' Is there a secret we don't know about?
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    3:55pm
    It's simple, toot2000, where is the greater population? Which would be the greater menace to our freedom? How to placate a numerous nation with a golden eagle (the garuda) as its symbol? Why, give them $558m this year! And then, give them the aircraft in which to carry it! lol

    I believe we are feeding the dragon. Particularly as we are giving so much military aid to Indonesia, the most populous Muslim nation on the Earth.

    'Islam or the sword' all over again...

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    Grateful
    3rd Jul 2012
    4:06pm
    I think you are being a bit harsh there toot2000. Indonesia is the major part of the problem and paradoxically are also the major part of what should be the "easiest" solution, stopping the boats in Indonesia and preventing them from leaving for Australia in the first place.
    Political reality demands, especially with Indonesia, that diplomacy must be paramount in our negotiations with them and it must be a give and take arrangement. The Indonesian government does not consider the boat handlers and crew as being guilty of people smuggling, so, they do not consider that they should be jailed, especially those under age. The "criminals" , the actual people smugglers, are the cause of this problem and it is those that both the Australian and particularly the Indonesian, governments must root out and punish severely, just as they do with drug dealers. THAT is what Australia MUST try to convince Indonesia to do and you can then bet that we will not see any more boats.
    But, Indonesian "politics" are extremely "delicate" and if we want something from them, we must also be prepared to give them siomething in return and returning "relatively" innocent people who are being used by the real criminals is IMO not too high a price to pay as a start.
    Abby
    10th Jul 2012
    8:08pm
    Ju liar wants is full of her self importantance
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    3:38pm
    So, aquatrek, why do you still live in Oz?

    Most people, within their own countries, in the First World, both complain and praise those countries. Scandinavia may have a better social welfare system, but I think, OVERALL, I prefer our climate and our landscape.

    As to the matter of the Hercules giveaway, that was just plane idiocy, to keep the puns going.

    And what do you think my chances are of being allowed to share the Gospel on Christmas Island? Especially with an atheist PM in charge? Or supposedly in charge...

    I can guarantee you, aquatrek and others who are anti-Christian, try and spread any of your dogma in most Muslim-governed countries (or even Hindu ones, such as India) and see which would happen first: severe injury to death or getting arrested.

    And even if it is not what you would term 'dogma', I can assure you it is, given how you feel about it and how vocal you are.

    BTW, I have no problems with your expressing your opinion/belief base. Another reason I love Australia.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    5:42pm
    Dear Crunchy - I base all of my intellectual findings on fact and fact alone - I have led a very fortunate life having lived in Sth Africa during apartheid, Papua New Guinea post 1975 independence, Ireland when Mountbatten was murdered, and India for several months. All of my cultural experiences have reinforced my teenage decision to "abandon" christianity as I suspected then that it was seriously flawed. There is now a wave of the likes of Hawkins who are not afraid to speak the bare-bones truth on the world stage about all faiths/cults and their hypocrisy and bigotry. I also.
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    6:00pm
    Not afraid! You would have to be joking! lol I do notice how Mr Dawkins has not spoken his 'bare-bones truth' on any stage in a Muslim country! lol Have you followed the debates with he and Dr Ravi Zacharias, for example?

    No wonder you have such a jaded view of Life. You have taken the very worst and stumbled with it! I wonder if Lord Mountbatten would have had a similar view. I know the Queen hasn't.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    6:20pm
    I really feel sorry for you and your likewise blinkered buddy Grateful [pate seems to have gone into the stables for a rest]. Horses are blinkered so that they run down a straight unerring path guided only by the riders - ditto yourselves. Your burdensome rider/controller was a cult fanatic from 2000 years ago - as was Mohammed 500 years later. That you actually 100% believe that at those points in time, disregarding all of the humanity that had passed prior, a "god" made its presence known is in itself "unbelievable". Have a nice life. Namaste.
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    6:44pm
    How very kind of you (or should that be patronising) to think us blinkered, aquatrek. Why do you not imagine that I have NOT checked this out every which way I can? It holds together, beautifully. Unlike evolutionary theory.

    And thankyou for your wishes. I do have a very nice life, actually. I trust yours is as good.

    Your histrionics really should be replaced with well-read history.

    Dominus tecum

    Leonie
    marron
    3rd Jul 2012
    7:39pm
    We are on here to discuss the boat problem, and we can give our views on why we say that Islam is not welcome here, however you don't have any right to be trying to push your religion on anyone else here. We are all allowed to have our own choice as far as religion goes. There are so many so-called religions around these days and they all think they are right. But 'christians' are of the opinion that only they are right, I know that because I had a sister and her family who were/are involved with The Assembly of God (or any of the other names they change it to when it suits them) yet while my sister was dying, the wonderful christian husband was off with another female from the church, she moved in to the house within weeks of my sister dying, married shortly after, and all of the wonderful christians could not see any wrong in it. HYPOCRITES!
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    9:07pm
    Umm, marron, I would be the first person to say that being Christian does not prohibit hypocrisy. I'm sure you've read about bad doctors and yet still go to your own. I know of disgusting Christians, agnostics and atheists, too, doesn't mean I discard them because their belief is intrisic to their outlook.

    I have maintained throughout this discussion that Christianity is ultimately about Free Will. Nowhere have I stated that you or anyone else is deprived of free choice in the matter. When Christ Himself said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no-one comes to the Father except through Me", it tends to state that we are the only ones who are right, at least in this.

    I am so very sorry that you have had this disgusting negative experience, but please, bear in mind that if it wasn't for Christians (and their belief), many people would starve, remain unhoused, would not get that second chance to become good citizens. Christian organisations such as the Salvation Army, St Vincent de Paul, etc. are renowned for helping out. If it wasn't for Christ, what reason would these people, many of them volunteers, have to go into dangerous places (viz., the Salvos in WWI and WWII) and help as they could?

    You have now 'pushed' your view. If you could save someone's life, wouldn't you? That's what I am attempting to do with my 'push'.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    marron
    3rd Jul 2012
    11:03pm
    My father was the biggest truest Christian I have ever known, he never judged people, he was always helping people, he donated money to so many good causes. He was a simple fisherman and was proud of that as it made him feel closer to Jesus Christ. He always looked after our family, 8 children, we may not have had the latest clothes and only had one pair of shoes at a time, but we had Love. we all grew up in the church, Methodist We enjoyed it all as the congregation were all our friends, we lived in a beautiful seaside town, before all the 'city people' decided to invade and change it to what they wanted.My eldest sister died at 28 yrs old from cancer, she was my best friend and my proxy mother. That day I never forgave God, I went to church for some years, but I opened my eyes and saw all the hypocrites who lived one life during the week then attended church on Sunday.I didn't want to have anything to do with it again, especially when my second eldest sister was mixed up with the Assembly of God ....... who thought they were the only true christians. As a nurse I have helped many people and enjoyed it, I give my support and help to the people I want to help.But I don't grow too smug about what I do, I do it because I want to help.
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    8:08am
    Dear Marron - of the bloggers here you have my utmost deepest humble respect - I am not going to attempt to debate anymore as the religious fanatics have tired me out so all the best, regards, Steve
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    11:08am
    marron, I am so very sorry about your sister's death. I know that you do see the hypocrisy in Christians. Do you also see them in others who are not Christians? Do you see that it is as universal as any other Human characteristic?

    I'm not excusing my or anyone else's hypocrisy. Like any sin, it is usually excused away by the sinner, in any case. Another example of rampant hypocrisy.

    I cannot even apologise for what you have been through at the hands of Christians. I've had rough times with them, too, and through my own stupidity at times. We too often think of ourselves as logical creatures - far from it! We are at the mercy of self-pride and ego and a need to be right, regardless of which is our leaning. Or learning.

    I had an 'interesting' life, but I have now learned that so much happens for which we cannot examine every consequence or every reason.

    In the wee, small hours of occasional despair and in my rejoicing, God is there for me.

    I am so sorry you have walked away from your Christianity. I do not believe that that is what your father or eldest sister would have wanted, but, again, that is not something I know for certain.

    I used to feel that all Christians were stupid, weak individuals, canting myth.

    I now have God Who shows me how to come to terms with myself and others, how to feel patience and to try to understand. In my old, atheistic days, that would not have happened.

    I do not like 'Sunday Christians', I have to say. I try not to be one. But I am not perfect by any means, and quite often, the habit of years is upon my tongue and its sharpness could slice jade!

    I do not believe that ALL AOG fellowshippers believe as that particular church did. Again, that is a Human characteristic, the 'My way or the highway' ideology.

    I do believe that as I cast all my cares on Him Who cares for me and Who knew me before Time began, I feel unburdened. I hope and pray it happens with you.

    Steve, I really hope you go with your word. And wake up.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    marron
    4th Jul 2012
    10:53pm
    Thank you Steve. this will be my last 'go'. My father and mother and my 2 dead sisters and 1 dead brother, who ALL died too young would love me no matter what. My father made it to 65, the others were all much younger. But mum and dad did not stop loving us for having our own beliefs, their love was unconditional. The times that Billy Graham and others of his ilk, were in Australia we always went to listen to them speak. When I was older I saw the home he and his family lived in, it would have housed many families with room to spare, he drove pretty expensive vehicles, and it made me feel ill that my dad always donated money to the Billy Graham 'cause' regularly, year after year, while my mother could have used some of that money to make life a little easier for her to look after our large loving family in a small 3 bedroom house. I would choose our life against the life of the mighty travelling evangelist any time. By the way we still have many friends and extended family members who are christians.
    Oldie@83
    3rd Jul 2012
    4:14pm
    Perhaps some of the doubters of what is in store if we don't stop the influx should see this site. I found it on a different part of Life Choices 'Community section'
    http://www.cbn.com/media/player/index.aspx?s=/mp4/DHU227v2_WS
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    5:57pm
    thanks Oldie - the bible peddlers on this forum arent likely to want to see this in full
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    6:29pm
    Found this quote:

    Religious liberty is guaranteed by the constitution, and no inquiries regarding religion are made by census takers. According to a 2002 report, however, about 75% of the population is Roman Catholic, and 25% are Protestant or other. The Muslim population numbers about 350,000, 90% of whom are Sunni. Protestants number between 90,000 and 100,000. Greek and Russian Orthodox adherents number about 100,000. The Jewish community is approximately 40,000, and Anglicans number approximately 21,000. The largest unrecognized religions include the Jehovah's Witnesses, with 27,000 members and Mormons, with about 3,000 members. About 350,000 people belong to "laics," the government's term for nonconfessional philosophical organizations. Unofficial estimates report that up to 10% of the population do not practice any religion at all.

    And his 'statistics' on hand amputation disagree with another Sharia Law source I Googled, quickly and easily.

    I don't understand you, aquatrek, have you confused me with a 'moderate' Muslim? There is nothing in what this man is saying that is news or has shocked me. Why do you imagine, if you do consider me a 'Bible peddler' that I wouldn't want to see this in full? Where do you get your opinions? From the nearest blender on full?

    He's just another Muslim extremist who happily (for him and his ilk) who has made it onto TV and likes shocking people.

    He needs to be arrested for incitement, but that's about all most First World governments can do. Unfortunately.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    6:36pm
    BTW, I don't like the idea of Muslim people in Australia. The Koran teaches such evil.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    4:46pm
    Indonesia is well-known, Grateful, for treating the symptoms rather than the cause. Unfortunately. Hence their gaoling of boat-people rather than the smugglers, their lax attitude towards the Imam that pushed for terrorism like the Bali Bombings, and very little being done about the drug dealers.

    Now we, in our own, empathic way, are doing the same.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    Grateful
    3rd Jul 2012
    5:27pm
    Consequently, we must work on that "attitude" and have them address THE problem, the people smugglers!!!
    marron
    4th Jul 2012
    11:04pm
    Indonesia is also famed for 'trapping' idiots who, when holidaying there, are offered drugs on the street corner, and they are stupid enough to 'try it just once' in the meantime those offering the drugs head around the corner to let the police know, the police then charge after the purchasers and lock them up. Another thing if you have been to Indonesia you will know is how corrupt the police are, if you hire scooters/vespa and are riding along the police will pull you over and ask you for a bribe, when you have done nothing wrong. If you hand over a small amount of money you are free to go. Corruption is rife over there.
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    5:32pm
    Dear Grateful - I asked you a straightforward question regarding an idea that you put forward as part of this boat people issue debate and you dont have the decency or possibly the intellectual freedom to engage - you dont want to answer the simple question put to you because you cant. When you put forward an idea that to some may have credence then debate the idea. Or dont you know how to debate either ? Just like the Hon Greg Combet AM MP who refused to answer on Q&A last night, despite him saying that he personally was disgusted with the political impasse.
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    5:39pm
    Oh, you are soooo forgiving and gentle, aquatrek! As well as being compassionate, patient and tolerant. Your stand-out traits, I'm sure! lol

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    5:32pm
    Absolutely, Grateful! Any ideas?

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    6:27pm
    ps. Scientists [like me] have a saying - We stand on the shoulders of giants whereas yours would be something like - We stand on the shoulders of cult fanatics.

    Alas - the boat issue forum debate seems to have been killed off ............
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    6:39pm
    The bigger they are... And what makes you think there are no excellent scientists who are Christian, aquatrek? And in what scientific field is your Degree?

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    3rd Jul 2012
    8:21pm
    I honestly dont know why I am wasting any more of my time here but being a polite human being I will tire myself further by repeating what I have already said [and still I am being forced off-topic by a cupla bigots] There are scientists who are "god wired" despite their superb education. I crossed swords so to speak with creationists who were seriously studying evolutionary biology = the human minds capacity for internal self delusion, let alone externally induced delusion, is truly amazing.
    As you have enquired so nicely as to my credentials I have a Bachelors degree [2009] in Earth Sciences and a Masters degree [2011] in Populations. I also hold a MCSE [Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer - 2000] and a Cert IV Training. 35 years as a manager of international computer site teams including a 2000 Olympic games contract. Yours ?
    Crunchy
    3rd Jul 2012
    9:13pm
    Bachelor of Arts in Communication Studies. Diploma in Teaching. Nothing like yours, but the great thing about life in this country is that one can also study informally. Have you studied Creationism? I've studied both, although without the alphabet after my name to prove it. I found Creationism far more logical. When evolutionists couldn't, for years, even get the right head on T. rex, I have to wonder...

    And you must have another definition of 'polite' that has slipped by me. Coulda sworn it was you that stated about someone not having the decency or possibly the intellectual freedom to engage...?

    Dominus tecum

    Leonie
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    8:04am
    aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh I see where you have gone "wrong". Arts degrees leave out logic altogether - by design. Now I feel even sorrier for you because without logic onboard your ship is rudderless. It wasnt too difficult to pigeon hole you as a teacher either. Paleo studies of the earth and its inhabitants are like detectives trying to solve a "cold" case - you obviously have no respect for them at all whereas creationists are so intensely "god wired" their circuits have short circuited. You had better stick with their brand of logic. I just luv analogies - dont you ? Pls dont reply as there are far more important things to ponder than your slobbering drivel. Namaste.
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    10:52am
    Thankyou, most learned and noble aquatrek. I bow to your perceived wisdom. Not. I was actually an atheist until well after I graduated, some six years, actually. And we had evolution thrown at us from every direction, all of which I swallowed without question at the time. It was, as I have stated in an earlier post, the 'dominant paradigm'.

    Actually, I gave up slobbering and drivel at the same time as I realised who was fooling whom in the science world.

    I'm surprised at your sarcasm in using the term 'namaste', aquatrek. I wouldn't dignify it with the idea of irony. Perhaps you'd just be better off, and more honest, in drivelling 'Nasty'. lol

    You still haven't (oh, what a surprise!) told me if you have SERIOUSLY looked into the claims of Creation scientists.

    If my ship is rudderless, yours, my dear fellow, seems not to have properly left the port, owing to the Master being missing.

    Oh, and BTW, I do respect people, even evolutionists, just don't respect their dogma.

    If you don't believe I should reply, stop posting, Dear Man. Go ponder some of your manmade slobbering drivel in the nearest Nat. Geo. ROFL

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    11:36am
    oh I am so weeeeaaak - the validity of creationists is the Q well - lets take a largish piece of granite [Mohs-7] of some apparent oldish age [you do acknowledge that granite is real dont you ? it is made in volcanoes - you know those things that in places continuously spew molten rock out from deep deep underground] then we place that granite deep in the ground under lots of layers of other geological stuff. Hypothetically 7,000 years later we dig that granite up and look at it - well stuff me it hasnt changed a great deal has it because that stuff is as hard as - wait for it - ROCK - duh Plus the layers above it havent changed a great deal either [providing in the 1st place that this selected patch of earth is Geologically stable - glad I mentioned that piece of science procedure] Geology [a science] has dated parts of western Oz to be approx 4.6 billion years old. Have you ever heard of ESR [electron spin resonance] na probably not. So we ask a 5 year old child how old was that dug up granite - well surprise surprise they say 7,000 yrs plus its age before it was buried. The creationist is baffled by this piece of logic and rushes off to consult the Abrahamic scriptures for a solution and reads that apparently god spontaneously created it in-situ whereas the 5 year old is not baffled at all. Its a bit like Ju-liar contemplating Nauru as a solution but cant locate a reference to it in the gospel literature. That will be $50 for your 1st and probably last science lesson seeing as how your previous science lectures were a waste of your time. What address will I send the bill to ?
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    11:44am
    Oh, aquatrek, why am I not surprised! Your moral fibre is as weak as your supposed science. Try: http://creation.com/article/6399 if you dare!

    I had thought that science was based on both observation and consistently getting the same results! Silly me!

    "Evolution has been observed. It just hasn't been observed while it is happening." Richard Dawkins, in a PBS interview.

    I'll send you a fake $50 bill for your fake lesson. GPO Australia is a good address. About as good an address as any I've heard from an evolutionist in the media.

    Oh, BTW, ask any 5yo child about Heaven. They know it exists.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    11:56am
    is that 5 yr old child a brain washed Muslim or a brain washed god fearing christian who has been unfortunate enough to have been verbally and mentally abused because a 5 yr old child has no concept of a ficticious "heaven" unless "educated" to " believe" - what utter bullshit you utter As for the creation website - been there and rejected that nonsense years ago and you refer to yourselves as rational adults - thats what the world should be really worried about alongside the likes of Ju-liar and Scientology.
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    12:18pm
    now that you have got me started - everything that you are > the individual you; you owe to science because it is curiosity and scientific research and application since the dawn of human time that has created the "you" - stone tools, fire control, smelting, engineering, chemistry, health, standards, governance, manufacturing, animal husbandry, your place of abode, your material possessions, your food, your clothing etc etc are ALL science related - not some ideological spin that has no answer to anything asked of it. Amen.
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    12:20pm
    Any 5yo child, actually, aquatrek. So, now we're getting down to what your unadulterated language is really like. What a surprise. And you consider yourself such a nice man, of course!

    Why am I not surprised at your rejection of the site. The mere fact that your so-called logical scientists keep disagreeing on 'results' has nothing to do with your research or your own views, I gather?

    I would have thought you would have been sending emails of congratulations to Julia, given her avowed atheism. I agree with you about Scientology, BTW. Which I believe I have told you. When you rant, do try not to repeat yourself. It's a tad tedious for those of us who have to put up with your bluster. lol

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    12:35pm
    you deliberately left out your involvement in the brain washing of children and that your intellect cant embrace how you happen to be able to type on this blog - maybe your world is not "real" ? there is medical assistance for that condition but you wouldnt want that because science manufactured it hehehe
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    12:54pm
    I cannot see how children of atheists, especially those who are home-schooled, can be 'brainwashed' in the manner you state. Sorry, I also don't see how my intellect has relevance to my being able to type on this blog. I would have surmised that my intellect is of sufficient value to keep you replying on a fairly constant basis!

    Perhaps you are referring to your own skewed value as to my logic and my Worldview.

    Are we now going to go into that old philosophical saw of your being only a product of my imagination and vice versa?

    Um, I don't know if that enlightened brain of yours has noticed, aquatrek, but that same practical science that would provide medical assistance for my supposed 'condition' has also provided the means, broadly speaking, by which I reply and refute your poorly expressed and badly maintained ideas. I cannot call them 'facts' as that would be stretching the definition further than that of its broadest possibility.

    Still going against your own moral code, I see, by replying. Hoist by your own petard, dear fellow! lol

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    12:55pm
    why not bring your real self and your cult worship over to the other cult topic blog - Scientology ?
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    1:05pm
    how amusing that scenario might be - keep the bloggers entertained for weeks - Creationism versus Scientology - what a fine pair of bedfellows
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    1:17pm
    Ahh, see, Steve? That's where you have not researched nor used your fine logic - I have already stated I do not believe in Scientology and, from my point-of-view, comparing Christianity with Scientology is like comparing astronomers with astrologers.

    You have the logic of a drunken teenager, my friend.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    Great granny
    4th Jul 2012
    4:22pm
    Oh dear and all this coming from so-called intelligent people - is there any wonder the country is in so much trouble - grow up the pair of you............I have lived a good life and find that simple 'commonsense' is far better than any degree you get out of books!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    5:15pm
    Trouble is, Great granny, as the old saying goes, 'Common sense isn't'! And I believe all countries are in trouble of some sort or other, we just tend to focus on our own backyard unless it impinges heavily from elsewhere.
    Airborne One
    3rd Jul 2012
    8:54pm
    Ok People, this is not the Lower or Upper House for that matter. The BIG QUESTION was "Boat people – have our leaders failed?".
    What can one say except, YES. regardless of Race, Creed, Colour, Religious Beliefs and Political Beliefs, the Ranga and her Crew have failed us and the Cue Jumpers. Us by not trying to put a stop to the People Trade and the Cue Jumpers, by not sending them back to where they come from Post Haste with an Explination Sheet attached that says, Cue Jumping to come to Australia will not be Tolereated in Any Way Shape or Form PERIOD. Get the Picture. END OF STORY.
    marron
    3rd Jul 2012
    11:11pm
    I agree with what you say, I wish Julia Gillard and Co. would listen.
    YOURLifeChoices Staff
    4th Jul 2012
    1:32pm
    The question i posted was have OUR politicians failed us.
    Not have the Labor Politicians failed us.
    But all politicians
    Including the Liberal Party, the National Party and the Greens
    So have all our politicians simply walked away from the hard work involved in creating a solution to the problem of human beings drowning in our seas?
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    1:37pm
    Yes. To both.
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    1:48pm
    Absolutely flawed logic above - NO. We have a leader of the country charged with making decisions on behalf of the country - that leader is the elected representative for a particular governing group. That particular group ALONE have failed in that a decision to convene a committee [a parliament outsourced was one brilliant satirical evaluation] to make recommendations was the outcome. Meanwhile more boats arrive.
    Anonymous
    7th Jul 2012
    5:04pm
    aquatrek.
    Spot on. I fail to see logic in blaming ALL politicians. Why do we have a governing Party or or partnership in Government if they cannot govern. If they can't govern, they should call an election.
    ScorpioJoy
    4th Jul 2012
    1:04pm
    I don't get it! These people are illigal immigrants! It costs more to support them than it would if we flew them back FIRST CLASS! Send them back home and save the money for the Legal Australians who work and pay for their right to live in this country.
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    5:53pm
    engage the declining Qantas fleet on a permanent shuttle basis - we can pay them with our taxes - that way we can kill two birds with one stone - keep the red kangaroo in the air and keep the monies in Oz and get the boaters back to where they came from originally [just joking]
    Grateful
    4th Jul 2012
    1:05pm
    aquatrek. Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not going to "debate" you, as, frankly, I believe that you are a waste of time. This subject was supposed to be about our overpaid politicians ON BOTH SIDES (the P.M. is an atheits and wants to send the asylum seekers to Malaysia and the Opposition "Leader" is a dummy spitting so called Christian who wants to turn back the boats, where does "religion" fit in that picture?) And you have turned this forum into a religious diatribe.
    George Bernard Shaw in Pygmalion used a very interesting line when he called one segment of society "the un-deserving poor". Well, the more I read and hear from these blogs, newspapers, shock jocks, the more I, sadly, think that with all the benefits that this great country provides, we should all be called "the un-deserving rich".
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    1:11pm
    you are sadly erroneously mistaken - I didnt turn this into a religious forum at all
    I actually pleaded to keep "on topic" - but having evangelism rammed into my face by a self confessed creationist must also be unpleasant for all who came here to debate a boat people solution
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    1:22pm
    Grateful, I stated in an earlier post that the refugees should be sent to a country that is governed by their own religion and only if it's that variety that they worship, so Sunni to Sunni country, I believe was the example I used. Humane.

    Oh, Steve! You continuously do NOT keep on topic! You keep replying to me because your ego demands that you do.

    I double dare you - stop posting on this topic! lol Then I won't be 'ramming' anything into your face at all!

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    1:30pm
    cant accept that dare - you think that you OWN this blog with your sanctimoniousness plus your short term memory of all that you wrote is seriously flawed - early onset dementia maybe or just more of that "selective" creationist logic process - come across to Scientology I dare YOU!
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    1:48pm
    Oh, Steve! And to think I thought that you believed that you and your fellow atheists own this blog! Especially given what you and toot2000 have posted about my replies. All hail to the great god of atheism, let no-one disagree or worship at another altar!

    Please, give examples of my STM flaws. I'm curious.

    And if you want examples of 'selective' logic, think of the widely disparate 'examples' of so-called 'missing links' that have been found over the last couple of hundred years. ROFL

    And why, if my God is the Real Thing (and I know He is), would I 'come across to Scientology'? Again, no need, no proof, no logic.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    Great granny
    4th Jul 2012
    4:26pm
    Here we go again, let me repeat what I said earlier - Oh dear and all this coming from so-called intelligent people - is there any wonder the country is in so much trouble - grow up the pair of you............I have lived a good life and find that simple 'commonsense' is far better than any degree you get out of books!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    toot2000
    4th Jul 2012
    1:28pm
    Please save me from the religious fanatics who feel compelled to educate us with their thinking. I'm not interested, you are spoiling a good debate, please go to another forum where like-minded religious people dwell and leave us alone. I think aquatrek has the patience of Job.
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    1:42pm
    How lovely and ironic of you, toot2000! You do realise that Job's patience was linked to his knowing how good, faithful and loving God is? lol

    Um, you might like to consider the idea that you and aquatrek both have your own religiosity, disguised as a blind faith in evolution and badly-thought-out theories.

    I keep inviting aquatrek to stop posting on this topic. Why attack me?

    I have posted my ideas on what should be done with refugees. No-one has replied to that, not one of your atheistic fellows, nor you.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    1:53pm
    Now you are a liar of the Ju-liar mould - I asked you to explain how would those boat people be identified so that they could be returned to their respective homelands. There has been no answer. You refuse to debate.

    I hereby request that the LifeChoices forum moderator ban you from this particular forum.
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    1:55pm
    Now, that comes as no surprise.

    Censorship when you can't win any other way, eh?

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    toot2000
    4th Jul 2012
    1:50pm
    Your arrogance knows no bounds, although it's obvious that you relish seeing your name in print as often as possible, how about giving it a rest for a while and let others have a go. It's about border protection!
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    1:54pm
    As I stated, toot2000, I have already posted my opinion on border protection and what I believe to be a viable solution.

    And, of course, you have no arrogance whatsoever. lol

    I care not about my name in print, but I will defend my God. If I was that gung-ho for my name to be in print, I wouldn't be just posting here and I would certainly be letting the print media know (whilst we still have a PRINT media).

    I'm sorry, am I physically stopping anyone else from posting? No. Are you advocating censorship? Yes.

    Dominus tecum
    Leonie
    Aloysius
    4th Jul 2012
    2:02pm
    I think that the relevant point is that any refugee or asylum seeker that supports concepts such as jihad or insists on Sharia law should be refused entry on security grounds.
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    2:06pm
    Agreed, Aloysius. Plus, I do NOT like the idea of enclaves of Sharia Law within our cities and towns.
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    2:07pm
    agree 100% but how would that be applied ? At present Nauru complies with the High Court decision that the country must be a UN signatory, the facilities are in place and Nauru will reopen it.
    Aloysius
    4th Jul 2012
    2:12pm
    I agree with the Nauru processing centre. That provides refugees with human rights but I don't believe that it means security concerns can be bypassed. I agree with the proposal that people who "lose" their papers should be considered high risk.
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    2:19pm
    Problem being, Aloysius, is that al Qaeda are so much into modern technology, forgery is an easy art for them.

    I don't believe that Nauru is the answer - short or long-term. And I hate the detention centes, they seem to be horrible places for mental aberration and loss of the joy of life.

    I'd relish the thoughts of anyone coming up with a viable solution to this one.

    We can't just foist them all off into the community, even with disparate ideology hosts. That doesn't seem to work, either. And the numbers of refugees and asylum seekers would preclude such a system in any case.
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    2:21pm
    Thanks - thats now about 5 votes for Nauru. The "processing' is indeed a difficult task; takes way too long for a start but apart from sending them all back there is no other choice ? A Nauru solution would hopefully have a similar effect as before and the trafficking would come to a halt.
    Aloysius
    4th Jul 2012
    2:31pm
    Many of these boat people have no document - papers have been "lost". Forgeries are not the main problem yet. The assessment process takes so long already that it should allow time for a proper intelligence and/or psychological assessment, like that given to ADF recruits. A fanatic will be exposed with proper questioning.
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    5:49pm
    I love that idea, Aloysius, but the ADF is now finding out that the psych. assessmt. isn't working as well as it could, given all of the problems with bullies, rapes and other indecent treatment.

    And how sure are we that forgeries aren't already a problem? It's not like the Dept. is going to advertise the fact that they have messed up and let in someone they shouldn't...

    Any further ideas? Love to hear them.
    Drew
    4th Jul 2012
    2:17pm
    Hello everyone,

    As you would expect with such a topic, there will always be a number of people with differing views. Up until today there has been a very educated debate taking place in the comments. Can we please steer the conversation away from what has now turned into personal attacks.

    Thanks,
    Drew
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    2:21pm
    Not a problem, Boss. Thankyou for taking the time and trouble.
    terry
    5th Jul 2012
    5:21pm
    Sorry Drew - after endeavouring, without success, to encourage more respectful and temperate discussion of an earlier asylum seeker debate, I have refrained from participating in this blog.
    How you could possibly describe the debate as an educated one bewilders me. Please take a good look at the language used by participants who harangue and bully anyone with a different perspective. There is so much overt racism, xenophobia and intolerance on display that any fair-minded person would feel sickened by the overall content.
    Surely a blog linked to a Seniors' website can, without resorting to censorship, promote rational debate on any topic, even those that arouse the most diametrically opposed views. Perhaps the number of posts from individual contributors needs to be limited.
    Until something like that happens, the debates on this site will never fall into the "educated"category.
    Crunchy
    5th Jul 2012
    5:24pm
    Welcome to being Human and living in a democracy, terry.
    toot2000
    4th Jul 2012
    2:23pm
    I would like to find out what the government's reaction is to an asylum seeker who arrives without papers, what procedures are followed, can't seem to find anything on Google.
    Aloysius
    4th Jul 2012
    2:37pm
    The courts allow almost all appeals and give them the benefit of the doubt. An absolute farce. There should be an onus of proof on the applicant, particularly if papers have been lost.
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    2:40pm
    Is that why previously 99% of those going through Nauru ended up in Oz anyway ?
    Grateful
    4th Jul 2012
    3:14pm
    Precisely aquatrek. Nauru alone is not a solution. We are paying a bloke around $400,000 to "advise" the government. He advised the Howard government to use Nauru, but, now he is advising that Nauru is no longer suitable as nearly 100% end up in Australia or N.Z. and it is no longer a DETERRENT.
    We must have a DETERRENT, for until we do, the smugglers will still be able to offer virtually guaranteed admission to Australia or N.Z. because of the massive legal protections that people get IF they arrive at Christmas Island or Nauru.
    Indonesia MUST be a major part of the solution. They allow people to enter through their airports, virtually untroubled, and the boats leave their shores. Surely, common sense logic must direct our endeavours towards Indonesia tightening up their entry and exit points. Yes, give them more money, it will be much cheaper than a detention centre.
    In addition to that, the Australian government MUST introduce FAR more stringent laws that will hold up in the High Court to be more selective of those that do arrive on our shores. The laws must take the certainly of acceptance out of the equation and surely we have enough brain power at our disposal to come up with those air tight laws.
    As much as I have great sympathy for the "genuine" asylum seekers, I find it impossible to reconcile that young able men are allowed entry when our young men and women risk and too often lose their lives to defend THEIR country.
    If Afghanastan is "at war" then surely Afghani young men, and they are VERY EASILY identified even without papers, who run away from Afghanastan, must be treated as deserters and traitors by the Afghanistan government and they should assist Australia in bringing those deserters to justice in their own land.
    I am an optimist and am holding out great hope that the report that has been commissioned from "the experts" will give us all some REAL options that can forge a compromise from all participants WITHOUT eyes on the polls.
    Aloysius
    4th Jul 2012
    3:48pm
    Agree but I am pessimistic about the advisory committe headed by a man trained to fight wars.
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    4:54pm
    1 - I will still go for the Nauru solution, given that the entry laws are tightened up, as you say. But we will finish up with a highrise covering all of Nauru as the backlog mounts. That legality of entry argument is at the crux of the issue. Although the premise of "you wont get to Oz from a boat" still stands and was previously a deterrent.
    2 - I doubt that Indonesia has the political willpower to tighten anything up, even if bucket loads of Oz taxpayers monies are served up on a gold platter to them.
    3 - There is no such thing anywhere on the planet as a national deserter. That notion is poppycock. You can only "desert" if you are in an armed forces unit. Plus if they were easily identifiable then how come the delays in identifying them ?
    4 - those that still attempt to go "off topic" by bringing in the Oz commitment to fight in Afghanistan should be barred from this forum. That is a totally separate issue.
    Aloysius
    4th Jul 2012
    3:59pm
    Another part of the problem is that asylum seekers are advised and represented by highly paid solicitors in private practice, all at taxpayer expense. The Department is represented by low-paid junior solicitors who have massive workloads and who are poorly prepared/briefed and who are outgunned in the courts (which give applicants the benefit of any doubt). People smugglers have successfully applied for refugee status so that they can ply their evil trade from within. We need legislation to make the security screening tougher, including the placement of an onus of proof on applicants (particularly if they have lost their papers). We need legislation to require entrants to sign a stat dec that they will abide by Australian law and not advocate other law systems that contain provisions contradicting Australian law. If they breach the stat dec then they should have their application deemed fraudulent and dismissed. Deportation should follow. If they become Australian citizens then they should be treated equally with all citizens. Available evidence indicates that refugees have a poor integration record and most remain on welfare and don't learn English. This must be addressed with assistance programs so that they can become useful citizens.
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    6:07pm
    That is EXACTLY why some Euro countries claim that multiculturalism has failed - no integration. Its impossible to enforce unless the laws are set in black and white as to what any refugee must comply with. If that was achieved in Oz and published everywhere overseas then that would be a serious deterrent. Sadly that is not likely to happen [yet].
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    6:27pm
    Might well be a deterrent, aquatrek, but I see a bit of a problem there (sorry): 1) you're expecting all refugees to be able to read, whether in English or in their own language. 2) you're also expecting that the aberrant-behaving refugee will not disappear into the woodwork within the ghetto, which has been known to happen. And people everywhere, throughout history, have been known to stick with their own, look after their own and hide their own when the chips are down, particularly if it is seen as a pogrom or unfair in any way. Ned Kelly, case in point. Certain British bankers, case in point.

    Like you, I have noticed that people tend to take advantage of our wonderful legal system, but I don't know that there is a way around that unless we state that all legal representatives must take their turn, at junior solicitors' pay, to prosecute on behalf of the State. Likelihood of that happening? Oink, oink, flap, flap (pigs flying).
    Great granny
    4th Jul 2012
    4:34pm
    It saddens me to see the young, fit blokes on these boats coming here as illegal immigrants (remember Indonesia accepts them as refugees and they make the decision to leave the safety of Indonesia to come here) while our young, fit blokes of the Australian Army are dying fighting their battle. SEND THEM ALL HOME AT ONCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR HOME AND FAMILIES..........and if they refuse then that proves they have another agenda - to populate Australia and make it another Muslim state like the one they have just left! I'm frightened for my grandchildren, what sort of country are we leaving them?
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    6:11pm
    Slight problem with that, Great granny: if they are supposedly willing to fight for their country, whichever country that may be, they will always hold a grudge against Westerners, partic. Australians. Which makes them dangerous, some unknown time down the track, for our men and women.

    For those that don't want to fight, they could prob. hide that well and 'disappear' at some convenient time down the track, just when things were getting rough and their training and ammunition were needed.

    The onus of proof idea is great in theory, but again, I'd be highly suspicious of anyone who comes up with the requisite paperwork. Most refugees, fleeing, have no time to grab documents and one country has just changed its laws concerning documentation for a certain minority and insists that that minority re-apply for citizenship (despite being born there). If they insist that they are NOT of the majority religion, they do not get citizenship papers. The old ones have to be handed in or they face a bleak future. Including children and babies.

    It's not all as clear-cut as it is here, and I think we sometimes forget that. We take a lot of our rights for granted.

    I don't believe in setting up ghettoes, either intentionally or accidentally, but can you imagine what the Far Left would have to say about people being forcibly moved to areas a considerable distance from their countryfolk.

    Also, the United Nations would scream blue murder at the thought. And, as you and I know, Australia is very good at kowtowing to the UN. Just look at how we do with International trade relations and tariff policies.

    I believe that, given how lucrative it is for the operators, we will have next to zero chance of stemming the flow. Lies will be told as to how easy it is to get to our country and stay here and it will sound like a virtual Paradise in comparison with war, disease, starvation, no schooling and no future where they are now. Ask them about their pensions. See what I mean? They'll do anything to get here, including risking their lives and their families' fortunes or ill-gotten gains.

    Even Devil's Island would seem that way to many of these people.
    marron
    4th Jul 2012
    11:22pm
    Maybe if we refused to allow them to build mosques, Islamic schools and to have prayer rooms in almost every walk of life buildings, Ban the burqua or any face covering, and stop the insulting idea of almost all processed foods having to have the 'halal' (tired brain can't remember correct spelling) sign on. We don't need our food to have the muslim blessing. If they knew this was going to be....NEVER! NEVER! EVER! perhaps they may not be so keen to come here.
    aquatrek
    4th Jul 2012
    7:24pm
    to Aloysius - 4th Jul 2012 - 3:48pm The Ju-liar committee is indeed a strange concoction at this stage - a bit like Carr being selected as Foreign Minister - a Genie let loose from a bottle [no one from the inner circles of parliament but then that may have spilled a crucial seat ?] The "committee are Air Chief Marshal Houston [a hawk], Paris Aristotle an immigration adviser [the name is logical hehe] and a foreign policy expert [Carr's secretary ? hehe]. Its a pity that we have to conjecture for 6 weeks as to what they will come up with. Then there is the cross-party committee comprising genuine volunteers or forced volunteers as well. This is obviously going to go on for quite a while yet. We could run a sweep ?
    Aloysius
    4th Jul 2012
    8:00pm
    As stated on TV, the Prime Ministership has been outsourced. When you have no idea what to do, set up a committee and then spend months reviewing the findings and decide that the committee missed the important issues and start over.
    Crunchy
    4th Jul 2012
    8:44pm
    By which time, it may well be time for another election, putting the whole thing on hold for more time. Time after time after time, if you get the picture.

    And then, during the election time, we have the multitude of false promises and unable-to-be-fulfilled-due-to-things-we-weren't-told-when-we-were-in-the-opposition promises. Gotta love politicking.
    marron
    4th Jul 2012
    11:33pm
    Unfortunately the young male Somalians form gangs and will attack/kill anyone for no reason. They seem to think they can just take what they want from anyone or anywhere. A nephew of mine was doing a dangerous in the army job in Somalia, when we had our troops over there fighting their wars for them. he came back a completely different person, due to the stress of not being able to trust anyone. Some of the children would be friendly with our soldiers who would give them sweets or small gifts to show they would not hurt them. The next time the children came close, one of them would have a live grenade to toss at our soldiers, when you faced situations like that on a daily basis but worse with the adults, you learned not to trust anyone. It is very sad as some of the genuine Somalian families are lovely people, who love the chance they have here to have the freedom to live and shop etc without the fear of death any minute.
    marron
    4th Jul 2012
    11:36pm
    I think that if YOUR Life Choices was to publish all of these comments here as a little booklet, they would have a best-seller on their hands. I cannot help smiling and even laughing out loud as I read through all of our thoughts/beliefs/ideas/solutions.
    Irishwolfhound
    5th Jul 2012
    2:50am
    Australia is a democracy- all of the countries that the illegal paying boat people come from are not, and are run by Dictators, Despots and Tyrants, who hold a tight reign. We are looked upon by these people as being 'soft' because we allow anyone to have a view, any religion, and say what they think without fear. We have now got to the point where our "...soft belly of democracy.." is being targeted by these illegal s. Multiculturism will only work if ALL PARTICIPANTS are on the same page. Most of the blow ins want it their way or no way. They must be taught, like naughty children , that when living in a family you respect other people, and their wishes, religion, culture, and way of living. They are coming to this country and must do it our way or return whence they came, voluntarily, or with help from the Government with a fully paid trip back to their homeland. TPV only - no job-no dole-no bringing over all the family on family reunited visa's. Play nicely or go back !!! ? ? ¿ ? ?
    Kali-G
    5th Jul 2012
    8:30am
    Attention to our Convener.

    Please tabulate this forum as a microcosm of the people of Australia, AND send them to every member of Parliament, so they can understand how the voiceless multitude is feeling about this dreadful situation.
    Grateful
    5th Jul 2012
    9:08am
    Convenor, no, just terminate this topic, pleeeeaaasssseee!!!
    pate
    5th Jul 2012
    11:21am
    I agree Grateful, couldn't agree more
    toot2000
    5th Jul 2012
    12:39pm
    You may not have anything worthwhile to contribute, but someone else might.
    Crunchy
    5th Jul 2012
    12:44pm
    Agree, toot2000. And it's nothing if not interesting. Still want a viable, humane solution.
    pate
    5th Jul 2012
    1:00pm
    Humane? Is that all you idiots think of if we worried less about humane rights and more about our rights we would be better off they are not even legal so why worry about them?
    They purposely destroy their papers so we do not have any trace on them not even where they were born, so I say again they are not legal.
    Crunchy
    5th Jul 2012
    3:14pm
    Not being concerned about our fellow humanity, pate, makes us a very selfish species indeed. I'm sure that if your relatives were in need, you would be the first to help. Or your friends.

    And everyone has a purpose, it's just that we don't always know what it is.

    The legality, from my point-fo-view, is not an issue. What they doing is NOT legal, you are right.

    I put forward one idea, I have seen others. None of them entirely satisfactory.

    What are you suggesting, your own version of Hitler's Final Solution? Quite honestly, if you want them sent back in those same boats, their chances of survival are about as good as being in a concentration camp.

    If they get sent back any other way, it's going to cost us heaps.

    I've already outlined the problems with getting the 'fit, young males' to fight for their country, wherever that may be.

    Our modern history was built on (mostly) boat people, otherwise known as convicts, who had no choice in the matter. It was the decision of the Crown - hanging, a rotting gaol in the middle of the Thames or transport. Look what happened to those who were 'blessed' to come out here. The women were raped or treated as whores, the men were slaves, too.

    Okay, so we find a country that is willing to take these people. For how long? How many before this new country says, 'Enough!'? How much will we have to pay to have them 'transported'? How many will then try to escape to get back here, as they are now doing from detention in Indonesia, where they, too, are illegal immigrants.

    I agree, they are illegal. So what would you do with them, pate?
    leon
    5th Jul 2012
    2:19pm
    On 1 Oct 1958 of Christmas Is. sovereignty was transferred to Australia by Singapore. What a great present, bird poop & red crabs.No mining has been carried on for years now & It is considered an Aust'n. National Park but generally most Australians have not been there or know where it is,except a staging point for illegal "asylum seekers" with dubious backgrounds & even more dubious agendas,especially those with Islamic backgrounds. A grand idea would be to assign the Island to Indonesia(A gift),Australians leave & let the "Illegals" fend for themselves. Good part of the problem solved.
    aquatrek
    5th Jul 2012
    2:46pm
    Except that surely it would become the staging assembly halfway post for more smuggler boats ? Better to declare it a true "out of bounds" national park including reefs and ship the whole lot to Nauru. The Nauruns want to do it so why deny them ? Ju-liar is so mind bloated with the "Pacific super power" ego trip that she and her cronies, despite cry acting in parliament, cant see the forest for the trees.
    Crunchy
    5th Jul 2012
    3:30pm
    This is what The Canberra Times had to say, aquatrek:

    It would cost $1.678 billion to house 750 asylum seekers there - far more than expected - with the capital costs of rebuilding the abandoned facilities at least another $316 million.

    Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/naurus-16b-cost-20120124-1t6gx.html#ixzz1zirPSDQW

    That's a lot of money for a temporary solution. What happens to the detainees, long-term? What happens when Nauru is full? Do all Nauruans think this is a good solution?

    I agree that the handing over of Christmas Is. is not a solution, for the reasons you enumerate. There is also a small population there. What do we do with these Australian citizens? Uproot them? Or hand them over to the Indonesians? Forced emigration is not a treasured thought. Think of being told you have to leave your home, your ancestor's home, for another, relatively foreign place or face having a strange government placed in charge of you.

    We may be distant, but I would rather trust our Courts and our bureaucracy over that of Indonesia at the moment, any day.

    I get back to a point that I made with Nauru - how many boat people could Christmas Island take, what would stop them from trying to come here again and at what cost?
    toot2000
    5th Jul 2012
    3:31pm
    They’ve got us over a barrel and they know it. Home Affairs Minister Jason Clare said today Australian authorities take all distress calls from asylum seeker boats seriously. "We know that people smugglers tell the people on the boat to ring Australian search and rescue - sometimes it's a false alarm, sometimes it's the real thing," he said. "We treat every one of those calls seriously because our top priority is saving lives at sea." It's called Checkmate.
    Crunchy
    5th Jul 2012
    3:34pm
    It's an International agreement - which is why so often trawlers and cargo ships get involved in rescues - including our yachties.

    I agree with you, toot2000, we are royally over a barrel.

    And we can't just shoot them out of hand, either, you can imagine the outcry Internationally, too. Nor would that be a viable solution, in all conscience.
    pate
    5th Jul 2012
    3:41pm
    What is so damn good about Nauru??? why wouldn't that cost as much as Christmas island ??
    Just because Howard has already spent about $400,000 plus? How much more would it cost??
    Anyway that doesn't stop the boats coming here as we have already had the B's land on the mid north coast, and disperse them selves out into the country. iI know it cost Council's thousand to clean up the mess, plus Police were involved in hunting for them. how much was that costing??
    aquatrek
    5th Jul 2012
    4:03pm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru - The Republic of Nauru - 2001>2008 they accepted boat people via Oz interception. 2009 Labour cancelled the arrangement. Since then there has been a surge in boats with many drowning in the attempt. Henceforth if you dont like the Nauru solution - short or long term - them please suggest another practical workable solution instead of just mindlessly bashing the proposition. Take into account that regardless of whatever solution is eventually put in place the issue will continue to be funded predominantly by Oz.
    toot2000
    5th Jul 2012
    4:17pm
    It’s going to take at least 12 weeks to reopen Nauru and Abbott is considering the idea of a “floating processing centre” using a naval troop carrier or even a “hired cruise liner” to temporarily house them outside Australian waters.
    aquatrek
    5th Jul 2012
    4:29pm
    I have my only son in the Navy who has had 1st hand experience in the interceptions. He is now mentally scarred for life due to the stress involved. As they make the boarding they dont know if it has been rigged to explode or burn so are 100% afraid for their mates and themselves. Then they have to deal with the conditions onboard and watch people sometimes die - either thru ill treatment, hypothermia or drowning. The sooner Ju-liar and her cronies decide on "something" the better off all will be.
    Crunchy
    5th Jul 2012
    5:17pm
    So, aquatrek, you and I both dislike the idea of mentally scarring our loved ones, and possibly physically, as well. The 'floating porcessing centre' therefore, will be as much of a problem as any other 'solution'.

    And then there's the cost, toot2000. And we STILL have the problem of post-Nauru. Or, what to do when Nauru is full.
    robby
    5th Jul 2012
    5:07pm
    The boat people are mostly very wealthy Afghanis. The reason that a few of them wish to flee the conditions there are mostly their own religion. The ones that are still there are living under the same conditions that the boat people are escaping. Let us be fair. Why just take the few wealthy? Why don't we take the whole 34 million of them. We have the room & it will make the do gooders very happy. Just think of how many soldiers lives would be saved & it would help to get America back on its feet. I would then be happy to move to Afghanistan with my family & live off the oil $billions that they would be abandoning, as long as they never want to return.
    Crunchy
    5th Jul 2012
    5:21pm
    robby, the War will just come to us, in the form of infiltrators made wealthy by being paid to Jihad. Also, we just don't have the infrastructure to cope with so many, or even a fraction of same.

    I have a feeling, robby, that not all Afghanis are overwhelmed with cash. You would still be left with a few there who would not be happy with 23 million Aussies taking over their country. Somehow, I think Afghanistan might then get an influx of refugees, if we can take over their country, or we would be blown up, if we cannot, successfully.

    I'm assuming this is irony...
    Great granny
    5th Jul 2012
    5:39pm
    Can't and won't read any more as it is too frightening, I didn't sleep last night! Please let someone find a resolution before it's too late!
    Crunchy
    5th Jul 2012
    5:53pm
    That's what I keep asking for, Great granny. Surely, with all our decades of experience, life and intelligence, we can come up with an humane, workable, loving solution.
    Grateful
    5th Jul 2012
    6:57pm
    Great Granny. Stop worrying. If you have a leaking tap, you call a plumber. If you have an electrical fault, you call an electrician. You certainly don't listen to bloggers OR politicians. We have FINALLY set up an INDEPENDENT EXPERT panel who will report to all of us by the end of August and we MUST take their advice. Be patient,, it will be solved.
    Some of those same experts have already said that what we must have is a deterrent and Nauru is NO LONGER a deterrent, so why spend another $Billion bringing it up to scratch? Let's just see what the experts say, as from reading this forum, all responsible would be more confused now than before.
    WE are NOT experts!!!!!
    Irishwolfhound
    5th Jul 2012
    7:01pm
    If we can -we will be a 'first'. Most of Europe is still trying to find solution to the hundreds of thousand of Islamic 'refugees'. Yes some are genuine but the majority have just come to causer trouble, and promote Islam and their own Sharia Law. We need to look closely at what others are doing to solve this problem before it is too late. We all need to find the solution Great Granny, not just 'someone else', its OUR problem.
    Irishwolfhound
    5th Jul 2012
    6:55pm
    This is a very good forum and topic. There are so many different views, and ideas a good representation of what the average Australian has to say. Unless there are nasty personal comments please leave this discussion as is Convenor !!!
    Crunchy
    5th Jul 2012
    6:57pm
    Onya!
    CindyLou
    5th Jul 2012
    8:29pm
    This is a serious problem that deserves immediate attention, clearly current policy and practice is not working.

    My concern also relates to the huge amounts of monies being spent by government to support people living throughout regional areas of Australia. I am sensitive to the difficulties that refugees have endured, however, they have certainly landed on their feet in Australia and must convey this to family members living in their homelands. I am aware of a house that contains several adolescent refugee boys, they have 2 workers supporting them, are able to call o/seas frequently, are driven to appointments etc.

    I think the general public (me included !) would be horrified to know the truth about the whole situation.

    (PS my family members were post war migrants, they were given nothing, had to work, learn the language and just get on with it, thank goodness they are now deceased as this current situation would have so irritated them)
    Crunchy
    5th Jul 2012
    8:46pm
    CindyLou, do you remember the Vietnamese Boat People? Do you remember the outcry about them? I had no problem with them, whereas here, we have an antagonistic religion that is incredibly asocial as we would view our society. That is the great worry to me. And we need a solution that works for EVERYONE.
    Irishwolfhound
    6th Jul 2012
    12:56am
    The Vietnamese refugees who came here have integrated into our communities, and become dinky di Aussies! Please show me a dinky di boat person? You cannot have a religion that berates any other people who are not of the same faith, and tells its members to "...go out and 'destroy the infidels..." I am Agnostic and have no problems with other people practising their faith, but there has to be a middle ground where we all agree to disagree , and then get on with our own way of life, and work ethos. Living on dole payments and having as many children as your wife can bear is not exactly "integrating". !!
    Crunchy
    6th Jul 2012
    6:29am
    Yup.
    Crunchy
    6th Jul 2012
    9:06am
    It goes through cycles (and I'm not specifically mentioning motorcycle gangs here! lol), where every immigrant community seems to have its unfair share of nasties - the Cosa Nostra and Mafia are not varieties of Italian food! Irish gangs were well known, in their time. Then, of course, when a new wave of Human imports makes itself known, in a way that tends to have unflattering photographs displayed at the local PO, there are the inevitable turf wars, which allows for more excitement with the 'burbs and the media, cluck-clucking their way through more sales.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT excusing or endorsing hurtful and criminal behaviour.

    What worries me greatly, as I have stated numerous times, is the desire for Muslims to violently push Islam on all of us.
    Crunchy
    6th Jul 2012
    6:37am
    Thought you'd like to see this:

    18 year-old Lal Bibi was kidnapped, raped, tortured and chained to a wall for five days by a gang of powerful Afghan police officers. But she stood up to do what women in Afghanistan are told not to -- she is fighting back, and together we can help her and all Afghan women win justice.

    According to deep cultural mandates, as a raped woman, Lal Bibi has been "dishonoured" and will kill herself -- and she publicly says she must, unless her rapists are brought to justice to restore her honour and dignity. Afghanistan's justice system routinely fails to pursue these cases and so far the chief suspects in Lal Bibi's case have not been prosecuted, likely in the hopes that international attention will die down. Every day that passes without an arrest pushes Lal Bibi closer to suicide -- but there is hope.

    This weekend, the US, UK, Japan and other major donors are expected to pledge 4 billion dollars to Afghanistan -- money that will pay for the very police forces responsible for Lal Bibi’s rape. But an international outcry can shame donor countries into action, conditioning their aid on real action to fight rape and protect women. We don't have much time left -- click below for change that could save Lal Bibi’s life and our petition will be delivered right into the donor conference in Tokyo:

    http://www.avaaz.org/en/justice_for_lal_bibi_c/?bVSzbdb&v=15757

    Local custom in some parts of Afghanistan dictates that women are shamed by rape and must kill themselves to restore their family's honour for generations to come. Amazingly, Lal Bibi and her family courageously are seeking to save her life by insisting on the prosecution of her torturers and shifting the blame to the perpetrators, in society's eyes.

    The Afghan police force responsible for the rape depends heavily on foreign funding that will be pledged this weekend, when all of Afghanistan’s major donors gather in Tokyo. Donor countries can and should require that funds are not spent to grow a police force that acts with appalling impunity and that police officers work to protect women, not attack them!

    There are hundreds of women and girls all across Afghanistan who are subject to the “tribal justice” meted out to Lal Bibi. Thousands more are watching carefully to see how the Afghan government and the world will respond to the girl who is fighting back and refuses to die quietly. Let's stand with her -- sign the petition below and tell everyone:

    http://www.avaaz.org/en/justice_for_lal_bibi_c/?bVSzbdb&v=15757

    The global war on women is relentless. But time and time again our community joins together to win. We helped stop the illegal stoning of Sakineh Ashtiani in Iran, and fought for justice for rape survivors in Libya, Morocco and Honduras. Let’s show the global power of our community to help win justice for Lal Bibi and millions of women in Afghanistan.

    With hope and determination,

    Dalia, Emma, Alaphia, Ricken, Laura, Antonia and the rest of the Avaaz team
    Kali-G
    6th Jul 2012
    8:54am
    An excellent article and worthwhile! On the flip-side it also high lite the monstrous evil mentality those people have towards human life, so they should stay in Afghanistan or where ever they are from. Not allowing them into Australia!
    Crunchy
    6th Jul 2012
    9:10am
    I agree, Kali. To me, there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. The Koran DEMANDS that, no matter the way, all must turn to Allah. And the fact that, if a radical Muslim sees what he believes to be lax Islam, he is encouraged to kill such backsliders, really concerns me. Thus, as we see daily, no-one is safe from such monsters.
    acatch4u
    6th Jul 2012
    2:43pm
    Its time to get rid of the caree polies & get REAL people in that are their to serve their constituants instead of having their snouts in the trough & being self serving.
    What other country is so gutless that they stand by & let illegals sail freely in & then TREAT THEM BETTER THAN LEGITIMATE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.
    I am not a racist & many legal migrants in years gone by paid their own way here & worked their butts of & contributed to the country, not like the parasites coming illegally.
    They destroyed their own countries, so why give them free reign to destroy ours?
    aquatrek
    6th Jul 2012
    4:31pm
    So far ........... a tiny dedicated team of OFFSHORE [Nauru] solutionists and the rest is blah blah blah blah blah with not a single useful practical wise mindful blah amongst the many blahs. Toot2000 mentioned a Coalition short term idea of a "floating" processing centre. I am going to borrow that idea, because last night @ 12.01 I had a holy prophetic "vision" = INSHORE processing. 1st Indonesia, with the full sanction of the UN, issues Boat Smuggler Licences [BSL]. Fares are standardized, boats made seaworthy and the Waterehouse organization are contracted to deliver an Illegal Immigrant [II] lottery. Playing this is a mandatory prerequisite to becoming a dinkidi Oz. Using every mathematical formulea from Lotto, Powerball, Bingo, bonus points, dividends, ladders and starting weights etc any winning player will get the lifetime Illegal Immigrant Immediate Entry Visa [IIIEV]. Other lesser winners will be guaranteed passage providing they dont go over the 30% overloading rule. The boat schedule is published well in advance so that the Oz Navy can conduct safe intercept & board exercises. Back in Oz the mining magnates are given massive tax breaks to purchase olde ships = hulks. This is a traditional OZ thing started way way back on the Thames River. Each hulk will be designated a role: H1 - catering [Masterchef programs lol]; H2 - medical, H3 - security; etc etc as is needed and the most important hulk of all is H666 - missionaries. That hulks role is to re-educate the II. As our key allies the USA have Guantanamo Bay so we can also use waterboarding etc for II ideological conversion therapies. The hulks will be moored in pretty patterns [tourism] just on the horizon - on a clear day the mainland will just be visible from the hulk upper deck. When an II has passed all of the very strict tests they will be granted a Temporary II Arrival Visa [TIIAV] so that they can work in the mining magnates mines, but only in Western Australia. The rabbit proof fence will be hightened and fully electrified using solar panels and only two checkpoints will be needed - Nullabor and Katherine. This legalization of the II system has many positive flow on effects. The model will be so successful that Tasmania will stop manufacturing catamarans and start international exportation of new olde hulks. This holier than holy prophetic vision has no obvious holes but may require some tweaking here and there. The vision also sees Abbot crowned as Prince Regent of Oz. This system turns a lose-lose situation into a win-win for EVERYONE, except Ju-liar.
    Crunchy
    6th Jul 2012
    6:12pm
    Can't help yourself, can you, aquatrek? What a surprise. Not.
    aquatrek
    7th Jul 2012
    1:15pm
    ps - Nauru seemed to lose out in a big way with the II system [now that large holy hole was not picked up by any in-depth qualified scrutineers !!] so it will be included as a "good behaviour" temporary holiday rewards camp sponsored by XXXX and Qld tourism [well - Labour has left them with a $100 billion debt] - the slogan something like 'II XXXX happydays' - an onboard hulk contest will select another winning IIIEV. Phew - now I hope it is a holistic system that satisfies EVERYONE.
    Grateful
    7th Jul 2012
    12:15pm
    When will the so called editor of this magazine put an end to this vitriolic, racist, bigoted garbage, into which this topic has degenerated?? Look what happened to the Editor of that rag the Herald Sun for dragging it down to these very same levels.
    toot2000
    7th Jul 2012
    2:45pm
    Wanting to stop refugees coming in boats to Australia makes me a racist and a bigot? I don't think so.
    aquatrek
    7th Jul 2012
    3:04pm
    hear hear toot2000 - well expressed - concise, to the point, clearly stated, no bullshit, no waffle, no ideology, no mistaken point of view, not self promoting, steady as a rock [thats an olde olde song isnt it ? rock of ages ....], takes up only 2 lines - not an A4 page with scrolling required, although maybe should have a Harvard style footnote/reference list with explanations of words/terminology used - especially for the sight impaired [hey can someone invent braille LCD monitors !!], you know - something satisfactory for EVERYONE.
    aquatrek
    7th Jul 2012
    12:22pm
    http://lpickering.net/item/DDS5A1EXHS9W595
    Grateful
    7th Jul 2012
    12:42pm
    aquatrek. I am sure that you have had that enlarged, laminated and framed and is proudly hanging in your lounge and that you laugh at it every day. PATHETIC.
    When human beings are debased into a cartoon and people like you embrace that ridicule so willingly, this country, the so called lucky country, is greatly demeaned.
    aquatrek
    7th Jul 2012
    12:43pm
    but wait, there is more hehehehe...............................................................
    http://lpickering.net/item/653
    robby
    7th Jul 2012
    3:13pm
    This particular forum is a real worry. There are quite a few obviously well educated & or intelligent people on here. When you go to a place of education, you study under a curriculum & then sit for an exam that decides whether you pass or fail. The question put is:- "Boat people- have our leaders failed?" We have been having the examination over the last 15 years & have not passed the examination. The problem is still there. QED!!! They have demonstratively FAILED.
    aquatrek
    7th Jul 2012
    3:27pm
    Some bloggers have requested a change of everything - from the constitution down [see MP pay rise this site]. There is no perfect governmental system as I am sure that in 7,000 years of fairly clearly known history we would have stumbled upon it. I have debated the concept of allowing only academically trained politicians to be elected but that is also fraught with danger. Many academicians wouldn't know their arse from their elbow because they exist in a closeted campus world far removed from what life is like out on the streets. I have no clear cut answer although I do think that the average Joe who runs for a parliamentary seat should have some rudimentary political qualification. I am not attacking the person in the rest of this sentence but a red headed fish & chip shop proprietor seemed to get herself way in over her head.
    aquatrek
    7th Jul 2012
    3:37pm
    Another example - how the bleeding hell did an ex State Labour leader become the overnight Australian Foreign Affairs minister ?????????????????? In all of Australia he was the very best person for the job ? pull the other leg - a person who quite quickly used the parliamentary floor to blatantly attack a High Court decision because it didnt meet the party's immediate wants !!! A work colleague who years ago had some business dealings with him called him the 'biggest snake' she had ever come across.
    Nautilus
    7th Jul 2012
    3:15pm
    They must have knowledge of the location of naval vessels.

    How do they do that? Do the military spooks know they get their intel and why isn't something being done about it?
    aquatrek
    7th Jul 2012
    6:40pm
    Earlier I said that I had a son in the Navy who has had 1st hand experience in the interceptions and boardings: he is undergoing psychiatric care as a result of the stress. I did outline a little of the nitty grit that occurs. The squeamish do-gooders on here would not like to be told what actually happens. Pls believe me in that the Oz Navy are not fools and they are dealing with very smart entrepreneurial criminals with access to all of the modern devices. It is also very much a seasonal opportunistic venture and that massive region is scattered with a multitude of legal and illegal boats. If 100% wooden and small then they are quite difficult to detect at long range. Plus Oz does not have 100's of boats/aircraft to patrol the region with. My son said that in the earlier years the boats only had say 20 passengers and nowadays 100+. So the 'industry' has expanded somewhat.
    Irishwolfhound
    8th Jul 2012
    1:57am
    This is an interesting article that I found way down at the bottom of the News colums!!
    http://tiny.cc/1b22gw It is by the Muslim population on Christmas Island. Now whose side do you think they would be on?? Well you will be surprised - they have named the people flooding in by boat as frauds, and not real refugees, and trouble makers that have fled their countries because of that fact!
    Have a look !
    aquatrek
    8th Jul 2012
    3:10am
    Thanks Irish El Lobo. Yes - differing viewpoints as to why they are refugees in the first place. I am sure that there are statistics as to the refugee origin and reason for being so but our dumb govt/media wouldnt think to give that sort of information out. The stats would have how much moola each carried, single or family, age, the fare paid, how long on the run, via what route etc etc There never seems to be a reference to the two main factions: Shiite and Sunni. Generally Iran Shiite; Afghanistan Sunni; Iraq Sunni; Sri Lanka Sunni; Pakistan Sunni. So one could assume that the majority of refugees are Sunni. Within Sunni are schools of practice yet all these are considered orthodox [Wikepedia]. Quite literally different to christianity and its belief platforms. Here endeth the lesson lol. Amen, All?hu Akbar, Namaste, Gawd.
    aquatrek
    8th Jul 2012
    4:42pm
    Dont get me wrong here but I actually just had a pang of compassion for the guys who are the boat skippers. They know the boats may sink. Some may even know that their own lives are on the line. Their religion prohibits what they are doing. So what pressing life circumstance brings them to carry out the job ? Debt, threats to family ? There are obviously bosses above them who run the operations. Those tentacles may go all the way back to the refugee source country. I think another blogger has already touched on this - highly organized crime coupled with corruption. Who would even have dreamed that there would be 21st century piracy - Somalia. Western countries spend many billions on border and warfare technology yet there are semi-permanent infiltrators operating 24/7. Something just doesnt ring true.
    toot2000
    8th Jul 2012
    5:54pm
    Turning the boats around worries me a bit although Abbott insists it's necessary to stop the people coming. The Indonesian President won't be impressed and Julia is telling everyone who will listen that it will damage our relationship, what a shame.
    aquatrek
    8th Jul 2012
    6:08pm
    I think that that Coalition 'reverse the boat' point is the only point that Ju-liar [and the media] harp about. Abbot and co. have repeated a million times that it would only be done when safe to do so. I wouldnt want to be the Navy skipper making that call. When the refugee boat actually blew up and caught fire some Navy guys were disciplined because they tried to save their own first - the rules say save your own then rescue the others. The general public have no bloody idea at all because we live in a heavily censored cotton wool society. The do-gooders wouldnt even know if reality bit them on the nose or arse.
    Ruralnurse
    8th Jul 2012
    11:02pm
    How many people posting here are willing to run for Federal politics and make the hard decisions? The politicians are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
    I remember when Australians would get up and do something instead of sitting back and yapping.
    aquatrek
    9th Jul 2012
    4:55pm
    If I didnt have an 88 yr olde mother to look after I might seriously consider it !!
    toot2000
    10th Jul 2012
    7:55am
    I saw Tony Abbott on 'Insiders' on Sunday and was amazed that he didn’t put his foot in his mouth once, he seemed confident and resolute. Barry Cassidy gave him a pretty rough time and naturally, asked him about turning the boats back to a country that he had rejected as not being a signatory to the bla bla bla. Abbott’s answer was the asylum seekers “put themselves there” in other words, have skipped safe countries to get to Indonesia to catch a boat to Oz. Barry tried three times to make him look bad but he kept repeating “they put themselves there”. He said the Navy had turned the boats back before and would do so again and when Barry suggested it would put stress on Navy personnel, he basically said that people don’t join the Armed Forces to learn how to knit, they join up to help their country.
    aquatrek
    10th Jul 2012
    11:21am
    hi toot2000 - looks like the debate is over and not a single constructive opposing solution to Nauru. Labour still keep harping on about Malaysia - are they seriously just going to defy the High Court ruling ? How much would be wasted in a challenge ? There are words to describe the mentality but unprintable here.
    Dachsie
    10th Jul 2012
    1:39pm
    Indonesia is a poor country .They cannot afford patrols to prevent people smuggling so they have no law against people smuggling. On the other hand the Australian government is spending millions and I mean millions every week housing and feeding and paying "boat People" who have arrived on our shores. Why not give these millions to the Indonesian government if they use the money to prevent people smuggling. Instant results in our favour
    aquatrek
    10th Jul 2012
    1:47pm
    Have you ever come across the nautical term 'pissing into the wind' ?
    robby
    10th Jul 2012
    2:34pm
    The people that arrive by plane in Indonesia are LEGAL & they can legally leave that country by any means that they dictate, without any Government interference. They are not illegal until they arrive at another country without a Visa or passport.
    toot2000
    10th Jul 2012
    5:35pm
    Robby, what has that got to do with the price of fish?
    boopydoo
    10th Jul 2012
    4:37pm
    Hi there
    Our leaders have certainly failed on just about everything they have touched - our leaders are the government (ie Labor + Greens). It is the government's job to fix problems and lead the country, it is the opposition's job to keep the government accountable. Which it has consistently endeavoured to do. The opposition does not say no to everything, it has agreed to something like 350 pieces of legislation since in opposition.
    Especially where irresponsible boat people are concerned, it is way time for 'tuff luv'. Re-introduce tvp's as a stop-gap measure. But at the same time employ more people at customs entry-points because there would undoubtedly be an avalanche of forged documents.
    Anyone with genuine papers and are genuinely asylum seekers - not financial refugees - should be given priority, those without genuine or any papers go to the back of the processing queue.
    aquatrek
    10th Jul 2012
    4:45pm
    Dont forget those so called 'Independants' who would be lynched by their own constituents if that was allowed nowadays. Wilke's pokies reform failure would have to be one of the biggest swindles ever pulled by the likes of Ju-liar. 747 Kevins back stab was just the beginning of blood on the Welsh dagger.
    toot2000
    10th Jul 2012
    5:41pm
    Independents, independents? Where's my gun!
    Abby
    10th Jul 2012
    5:27pm
    Refugees ? They should be put on the next plane to fight the war in their own country and bring back our soldiers.
    aquatrek
    11th Jul 2012
    6:12pm
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=381921955195302&set=a.237011506353015.72838.236991276355038&type=1&theater

    Pickering - the best Oz satirical cartoonist ever !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Ruralnurse
    12th Jul 2012
    12:00am
    the "boat" people are economic "refugees". They are heavily cashed up in gold. jewellery and US dollars. They are not the peasants from the poor villages.
    The US is the only country with the right idea---Wet feet, dry feet.
    Abby
    12th Jul 2012
    6:45am
    Wet feet, dry fee policy is not possible here as OUR NAVY picks the boats up even when they are not in our waters ??? This also includes the BOAT SMUGGLERS who are at the moment in the process of suing Australia for false imprisonment. Once again the TAXPAYER will have to PAY.
    Sheppie
    13th Jul 2012
    4:16pm
    I hope none of our newcomers will get the impression that all Australians are as racist, ill-informed and violent as most of these posts suggest!

    Look at the names of correspondents and you'll see that it's a small group of people ranting over and over again.
    goldseeker
    16th Jul 2012
    9:15pm
    I heard today that Sri Lanka turns back boats. Australia will not. Question: WHY.
    Is it because our illustrious leader, Ms Julia Gillard must have her own way regardless of the what the Australian Public wants. Madam Gillard stated once, "There will be no carbon tax whilst I am leader of this party", What bulloney. A $23 per ton carbon tax and we get slugged with it. What a liar. It is about time that Ms GILLARD got out of her castle and speak to the people that she so called represents. I served 21 Years in the Aust Army, served three tours of duty in Vietnam, went wherever the Defence Force, Government, told me to go. I am now a TPI, DFRDB recipient and trying to make ends meet on miserable, miniscuel pension rises. Pollies got a 3% wage rise. What did we get. It is about time we the people got our collective voices together to get rid of this woman and herer cohorts. Bob Brown has already gone, thank goodness. The rest of the greens and independants will be next as well as the majority of the Labout Party. Roll on the next election, bring it on Julia as this will, be your last democratric action in your lifetime.
    goldseeker
    16th Jul 2012
    9:18pm
    Further, I have sent Julia several emails, as well as every senator and House of reps member and I am absolutely dumbfounded that not one of these ignorant Politicians has responded. WHY.
    boopydoo
    17th Jul 2012
    12:08am
    My dear, didn't you know that to protest is to be an extremist!!!!!
    Try writing a letter with a cheque donation to the party re-election fund. Its about the only way they will respond.
    I have written to a number of opposition and always get a reply (apart from the usual automated repy), and not necessarily the standard 'thank you for your comments'.
    Sent one to Juliar telling her she brought disrepute to the office of PM, and that the last straw had been her saying Abbott wanted people to die.
    Told her I would never vote for a labor government whilst ever she was PM - thought I might at least get a newsletter begging me to stay true, but no, ZILCH, not even an automated reply.
    That's okay, my vote for LNP may well be just the one that loses her her seat - and not the swivel chair she sits in in parliament!
    ps my husband was a 1970s conscript, for those too young to know that means he was forced to give up two years of his life to serve the country. No financial compensation then for losing his career, suffered mental illness, inadequate medical treatment, not being looked out for now......might save up for a flight to Indonesia and take a cruise boat back to Christmas Island - believe we will be looked after then.
    goldseeker
    16th Jul 2012
    9:20pm
    Can any ready here please give me an address to which I can a submission to re the Illegal Boats inquiry chaired by the ex CDF, AVM Angus Houston?
    boopydoo
    17th Jul 2012
    12:17pm
    1. I suggest you phone your local member or parliament house - don't email, that is too easy for them to side-step.
    2. I don't think they are taking public submissions but you could try.
    3. I would suggest you make a very considered submission if you do make one.
    4. Back up your argument with sound facts. ABS will probably have statistics for you to access on line, if not try newspaper reports, but always quote your sources.
    5. Don't say something should or shouldn't happen and leave it at that.
    6. Don't say I want, I need, we want, we need etc.
    7. Don't harangue anyone - your submission will be binned before it sees the light of day.
    8. Moderate your tone - tone can convey yelling.
    9. Don't come across as poor me - quote the number of troops who served OS, there are certainly statistics available on illness. Details may be available online at the Vietnam Veterans Family Study. Details would be similar for every conflict Australia has served in.
    10. Whatever you do do not come across as racist.
    11. Familiarise yourself with the UN convention on refugees. Like it or not Australia s a signatory, thus it is obliged to house, feed, clothe and provide employment for any asylum seeker/refugee that is officially classified as such.
    12. Learn the difference between asylum seeker, refugee and illegal immigrant. They are all different things.
    Good luck but we won't hold our breathe waiting for you to get a reply.
    goldseeker
    17th Jul 2012
    12:33pm
    I thank you for your response boopydoo. All I want to do is try and stoop the boats arriving here in the first place. If the countries from where they come from stop the boats, then we will not have to risk Australian tax payers money in getting them to Australian territory. The boats have to be stopped.
    goldseeker
    17th Jul 2012
    12:36pm
    I have just got off the phone to my local member for the Committees contact address etc. I have been informed by the lady that took my call that "these boat people have been approved by the UN........". I don't think the UN would support boats departing a country ILLEGALLY for a passage that could incur loss of life etc which has already happened.
    aquatrek
    17th Jul 2012
    1:03pm
    can you share that Committee's contact address Goldseeker ? What party was your local member ? of course dont reply to that Q if you dont want to.
    goldseeker
    21st Jul 2012
    10:32am
    Aquatec: The email address is 'expertpanelonasylumseekers@pmc.gov.au'. However, the closing date for submissions was tClose of Business, Thursday, 19 Jul 2012. You can try if you want but I think you will be a little late. I searched the internet for the address but could not find it. My local Federal Member is Labour, his name mr. Bill SHORTEN.......need I say more.
    aquatrek
    21st Jul 2012
    10:39am
    http://pickeringpost.com/news/serious-questions-for-gillardbr-still-no-answers/139

    I think red blood is going to flow sooner than later
    Drew
    17th Jul 2012
    11:29am
    Due to the nature of some of the comments in this article, we have taken the time to review every comment and removed those which breached our policies (around 20 in total).

    Thanks,
    Drew
    goldseeker
    17th Jul 2012
    12:07pm
    I trust Drew that you will advise the draftees of the reason for the removal?
    boopydoo
    17th Jul 2012
    1:12pm
    Sorry Goldseeker, cannot agree that UN would approve people then put them on a boat. Are you sure that is what was said/meant. Perhaps they were approved by the UN but were waiting their turn to come. The UN does not sanction people getting on leaky boats - they have to wait their turn.
    I read somewhere recently thathe UN is the cause of the backlog of hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers and refugees waiting to be relocated, however there was no reason stated.
    Wondering if anyone else knows.
    Allan James
    20th Jul 2012
    6:01pm
    I could get into debate with you but you make it sublimely apparent that your acumen is somewhat lacking so therefore it would be pointless debating someone like you. You see I have read ALL that you and the others have added to this forum (mostly drivel and self righteous claptrap). Your self importance is staggering!
    Anders Behring Breivik - murderer yes, terrorist no. Hitler - murderer yes, terrorist no. Stalin, murderer yes, terrorist no. Do you want me to go on because I could but I don't think you're worth it.
    End of this exchange but I'll be watching you - and the others.
    aquatrek
    20th Jul 2012
    6:13pm
    So after your above 'dummy spit' what message to the planet and Oz persons is it that you wish to convey ? Ranters like yourself have a warped sense of sensibility quote ' They need to be eliminated - one way or the other. ' unquote That sort of expression doesn't help anyone with anything. The topic is 'boat people - have our leaders failed ?' but maybe you missed that at the very very beginning ? Your practical suggestions as to how to resolve the dilemma are simply put as ' eradicate all Muslims ' - get a real life man and subdue the hatred.
    aquatrek
    20th Jul 2012
    8:46pm
    Terrorism - The calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear. [Princeton University]. You apparently do not even know the sheer basics of what you are talking about !! Quote 'Anders Behring Breivik - murderer yes, terrorist no.' Unquote. Keep watching Allan James that a terrorist doesn't have you in their sights.

    29th Jul 2012
    4:40pm
    To answer the question...yes the govenment has failed "me" and they will find that out at the next election!
    thinkingoutsidetheboxsolutions
    8th Aug 2012
    2:40pm
    The simplest way to end the boat people situation - SELL CHRISTMAS ISLAND - to Indonesia. Once Christmas Island is no longer Australian territory, there will be a dramatic reduction of people making their way to Australia via Indonesia. It will stop people dying attempting the dangerous boat journey. Australia will save money rescuing, housing and processing illegal immigrants. The politicians can then get back to better spending their time with important domestic issues.

    For more information check out this facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sell-Christmas-Island/332649026826035]http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sell-Christmas-Island/332649026826035


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