CBA chased victims for money

Is it any wonder that consumers are reluctant to seek financial advice, when safeguards are being weakened?

The implication of Commonwealth Bank staff in a $100 million fraud was allegedly ignored by the banking giant, which instead decided to chase the victims for the return of the funds.

Bill Jordanou and Robert Zaia of Victorian accounting firm, Zaia Arthur & Associates and three associates were charged last month with numerous counts of fraud and financial deception. All the accused ran an alleged decade-long scam, falsifing loan documents and is believed to amount to over $100 million. The money from the fraudulent loan applications was used to fund the lavish lifestyles of those involved and to keep up repayments on the original fraudulent loans.

The Victorian fraud squad commenced an investigation in 2011, after the CBA discovered that loans issued were supported by false documentation. However, it is believed that the actual fraud pre-dates 2007, when CBA customers Debbie Mann and Jim Barker were facing foreclosure on their property over a loan organised by Bill Jordanou and Robert Zaia. The couple advised CBA that the income documents had been doctored with the knowledge of a senior CBA loan manager and they also questioned unauthorised withdrawals totalling $26,000 from Ms Mann’s account. The CBA settled the matter out of court with the couple.

It has also been revealed that the bank tried to foreclose on the home of a 91-year-old woman, who was also caught up in the fraudulent scheme, but the bank’s action was abandoned when the woman’s family agreed to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

Several other victims have faced different, inappropriate responses from the CBA. These actions and the alleged involvement of a CBA staff member in the fraud have left victims angry.

CBA refused to comment to Fairfax Media, with a spokeswoman for the bank saying, “In regard to your questions relating to events in 2007, you would appreciate that there are currently fraud allegations regarding Zaia Arthur & Associates before the court and as such it is not appropriate for us to comment,” she said.

Read more at TheAge.com.au

Opinion: FOFA – fear of financial advice

Is it any wonder that Australians are reluctant to seek financial advice, be it for home loans or long term planning, when consumer safeguards are being weakened?

The Future of Financial Advice (FoFA) reforms where introduced in 2012 by the then Labor Government to make it easier and safer for everyday Australians to seek and receive independent, qualified advice to help them plan for their future financial needs. Yet we have seen the Coalition Government make it one of its first goals to roll back the reforms and remove any security for those seeking advice.

In a response which seems to have been undertaken to placate angry stakeholders, Senator Mathias Cormann – the Finance Minister and Acting Assistant Treasurer, put the rollback of the reforms on hold to consult the relevant parties. However, the resulting recommended legislation appears to be intended to appease those organisations and companies which are set to benefit financially from the watered-down reforms – and it’s not your average Joe on the street.

On Friday, Senator Cormann announced that the Government will push ahead with the roll back of the reforms, effectively removing much of the security for those actually seeking the financial advice, those who can least afford to cover failed investments. And why? Because the reforms would be too expensive and entail too much for the financial giants, such as AMP and the big four banks, who provide 80 per cent of such advice, to implement.

So now when Joe and Mary go to their bank to withdraw some money to pay bills, they will be bombarded with offers of loans, credit cards and even superannuation products by the kid behind the counter who is barely out of school and who has very little training or experience in such products. And with banks, their staff and agents being frequently investigated for fraudulent behaviour, as highlighted in the current Victorian fraud squad investigation into fraudulent loans allegedly signed off by the CBA, how can anyone trust that the information and advice given is correct?

Under the Labor Government’s reforms, financial planners would be required to act in the best interests of their clients. Now it seems they only have to act in the best interests of their employers and their own hip pockets. Having legislation in place to remove the uncertainty that a planner may not be acting in the consumers best interests would have been priceless for the many Australians who desperately need to take control of their financial future. But apparently this would be too high a price to bear for the big four banks, AMP and the Government.

Does the roll back of FoFA legislation mean you are less likely to seek financial advice? Will it encourage you to deal with truly independent advisors? Or does it make little difference to the trust you have in planners?





    COMMENTS

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    Jen
    23rd Jun 2014
    10:16am
    Why would the LNP roll back the reforms? The stink from that mob is becoming unbearable.
    Jen
    23rd Jun 2014
    10:18am
    And no, we haven't trusted financial advisers or bank advisers since the mid 90s when we were burned by Westpac or whatever they called themselves back then.
    Adrianus
    23rd Jun 2014
    12:48pm
    Why would they roll back reforms indeed. Under the vengeful Labor/Greens/Unions/Independent Government much of the legislation did nothing but serve as a ball and chain to slow down industry. You can not get any advice from a planner these days unless you sign reams of paperwork which costs a lot of money to produce and does not guarantee sound advice. Hasn't anyone noticed that the people whose job it is to provide advice (Lawyers, Accountants, Financial Planners, Bank Managers) are increasingly losing that roll to the neighbour or BBQ attendee who can provide the advice free of charge and without duty of care???
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:15pm
    Why Jen? Because big business owns this government.

    Frank: this is the rhetoric of a troll mate and you provide little in the way of discussion or enlightenment. If you want to use the word "vengeful" then look at your leader Tony Abbott and his malicious front bench. This crew intentionally dragged the nation into the gutter, voted against EVERY PIECE OF LEGISLATION other than pay rises for politicians and then got into government with gross deceit. Whilst I heard the words "she lied" from Abbott on many occasions I need to point out that Abbott holds the world record on lying from what I can see. In decades gone by any government which had lied its way into office would have been shown the door. But sadly big business now owns all of the large media players and its agenda locks out truthful reporting when this goes against the government it elected. So lets get real frank and not troll. People can see the difference.
    And by the way, Independents, love them or loath them, were the only representatives in the parliament who tried to fix issues like gambling addicts whose assets (all of them) were so gladly accepted by gambling businesses, like the deaths of young men being king hit on the streets and being killed and like the the problems which too much alcohol was having on the population as a whole. I did not see Labor, Liberal or Greens do anything here....because they were soliciting election funding from these organisations and then leaving them alone (the pay off). As I have said on many occasions Australians need to vote for a good Independent so that we send the big parties a clear message: shape up or ship out. The Dishonest Liberal Party is at the top of this list by a country mile.
    KSS
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:25pm
    Talk about trolling Mick!
    Adrianus
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:48pm
    Don't forget mick, Tony Abbott is your leader too. Or, if he is not why don't you tell us who is? You must have a leader?
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    3:03pm
    Who needs a leader when We've got a Big Eared Robot ??
    Adrianus
    23rd Jun 2014
    4:09pm
    Take me to your leader!
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:23am
    KSS: Trolling? As I have repeatedly said Frank I VOTE FOR NEITHER SIDE OF POLITICS. Although I occasionally have a bit of a rant I normally stick to the facts and you would be advised to do the same.
    What never ceases to amaze me is that many people have faith in the goodness of big business and government. The reality is that this faith is misguided and the corruption is what it is. If you and I behaved in similar manners we would be behind bars.
    No, not trolling mate. Just exposing the crooks for what they are!!
    Adrianus
    25th Jun 2014
    10:19am
    mick, it's clear to me. You vote for the Unions. I am like a fridge magnet on facts. When you say you usually stick to the facts. What do you mean by that mick?
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    2:19pm
    Simple Frank. I argue the FACTS, not blind emotion or worse than that "beliefs" which are moulded by political advertising (propaganda). This is what I am seeing from you.
    I am not in a union. I do not vote for Unions as they are not a political Party. I do not vote for Labor because, whilst the Party is interested in average Australians, it sometimes goes too far as well as not being decisive. We saw this with the ongoing boat people issue.
    I hope that the above sets you straight.
    Look at the following link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw6nccAnPRw&feature=youtu.be&utm_source=et&utm_medium=email&utm_content=pic&utm_campaign=fofaupdate_140625
    It might give you a bit of direction rather than sounding off.
    Rosscoe
    23rd Jun 2014
    10:57am
    People should be protesting in the streets about this!!!
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:16pm
    We're all so apathetic Rosscoe and also creatures of habit. That is why things never change and people keep making the same mistakes.
    Budwah
    24th Jun 2014
    11:00am
    The Liberal government in Tasmania is trying to bring in a law that prohibits protesting and can lock up protesters. So I don't think there will be protesting in Tas.
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:26am
    Governments hate to be opposed. Locking up protesters is the thin edge to totalitarian rule and it is my hope that Australians will not have a bar of it.
    You cannot lock up thousands so the way forward, should this happen, is to flood the streets to put it up them. I don't think that they'll try this one on though.

    23rd Jun 2014
    11:07am
    I treat all banks and financial institutions like black snakes. Having had a "top bank" demand repayment of all loan monies within 48 hrs, despite no arrears, nor any other financial problems, has left me with the understanding that these people just live to destroy peoples lives and asset bases.
    The reason for the demand for repayment?
    "We have done some computer projections that tell us in 12 mths time, you may owe us money we won't be able to recover".
    What a joke, I had never not repaid any money in my 30 yrs in business.

    That bank no longer even gets the time of day from me and my family, and it never will for many more decades.

    The simple fact remains that these major banks have already made substantial provision for losses from fraud, and writing off fraudulent loans makes no difference whatsoever to their bottom line.

    I was staggered to read a report from AGC Finance in the early 1970's, when the MD reported in the annual report, that an employee had absconded with over 1 million dollars (when a million was a lot of money).
    They couldn't find the employee, nor could they recover any of the money. So AGC just wrote it off.

    The MD stated in his report, "the million dollar theft makes no difference to our bottom line, anyway - we have already provided for it in the bad debts account, and we are reporting a healthy increased profit for the year!"
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:24pm
    You are on the money Aaron although it appears that you may have signed away your rights. And yes I understand that this is what they sometimes demand before you get the money. Loyalty is something banks rarely possess and the system to protect borrowers is as weak as water. You are fair game although the Banking Ombudsman does get them to account sometimes

    You are also correct about fraud being built in. In New Zealand the national bank has a second tier of safety to get into your own account. This is via a plastic card the size of a credit card with a grid on it. You are asked to enter 3 characters (eg., A3) and if not correct you cannot access your account. Absolutely brilliant. I suggested to my bank that they follow this lead but Westpac is happier to wear the fraud rather than safeguard accounts. Likewise with the others I imagine...and we all pay.....and some folk like you suffer whilst others are scammed and it becomes their problem. The system stinks. But remember that Abbott was put into power by big business and the big banks are at the core of those who stumped up money, and now want 'protection'....against you and I. Give me strength!!
    Adrianus
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:57pm
    mick I once owed a bank nearly $100k and they forgave the debt. I call that loyalty.
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    3:13pm
    PS..I forgot to Mention I am The Treasurer of that Bank !!
    Young Simmo
    23rd Jun 2014
    11:29pm
    Wakey, Wakey people, there are horses for courses.
    I think it was on 7.30 ABC tonight, where a guy said he needed $200,000, and the bank said he could get $600,000.
    He took it and now says he can't pay it back, and the bank is going to clean him out. For my money (Pun Intended), he dug the hole, and you know the rest.
    Adrianus
    24th Jun 2014
    7:12am
    Yes I saw that report Young Simmo. I think the figure was $650k. Why is it that when we make a blunder we look for someone else to blame. When the bank Johnny told this guy that according to lending policy he could have up to $650K he did not complain. He took the money and invested in non income producing property. Unfortunately he is a victim of the GFC. But he is also in control of his own destiny. Why is it the banks problem because his wealth creation strategy went south??
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:27am
    Frank: I don't know the circumstances of your situation but very few banks 'forgive' a debt unless they risk being exposed for wrong doing.
    Adrianus
    25th Jun 2014
    10:23am
    exposed for wrong doing? Under what circumstances?
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    2:21pm
    Banks hide behind their bottomless pockets. So what are you and I going to do? Take them to court?
    BrianP
    23rd Jun 2014
    11:22am
    Comment from Brian Parkes of the Australian Voice Party.

    I fully agree with the writer of this article. To get straight to the point - the Government has put Banks' profits above consumer protection. That means very large numbers of Aussies have had their homes and businesses unfairly taken from them by banks.

    BUT WHEN WILL THE PUBLIC JOIN FORCES TO STOP THIS!! What will it take for people to say "We want Government action to control the banks?"

    Many have said "who will listen and do anything about it?" Well, now there is an organisation that has been set up by everyday Australians right across our country, which has the clout to get the Government to take note. It is called the Australian Voice Party.

    Australian Voice is not run by big business, trade unions or any other faction. It is a grass roots party which has been set up to field candidates to represent the people in future elections. In other words, we will use "People Power" to change Government policies.

    Australian Voice exists to make the voices of everyday Australians heard. But it will only work if everyone joins together and gives their support. So, spread the word, go to our website and CONTACT AUSTRALIAN VOICE. We are not allowed to list our website address here, but you can find it by googling the two words of our name in lower case as one word, followed by .org
    ourjeffie
    23rd Jun 2014
    12:33pm
    Google is a lot smarter than you give it credit for

    "in lower case as one word, followed by .org" is unnecessary
    KSS
    23rd Jun 2014
    12:49pm
    Another party political recruitment drive by the Australian Voice. Please don't.
    Polly Esther
    23rd Jun 2014
    1:07pm
    Gee whiz you must be desperate pal. Have you ever thought of standing on a street corner waving a placard.
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:27pm
    If you are serious BrianP then either get a petition going or join forces with the GetUp crew who do this so well. United we stand, divided we fall. Never more true than for pollies looking at who is going to vote against them in the next election.
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    3:11pm
    Its too late!! Most voted to be led around on a lead for Three long Years !
    And I hope nobody goes Horse replying to You ??
    Gra
    23rd Jun 2014
    12:18pm
    Of course the coalition were going to roll back these reforms. They don't care about your mum and dad investors, people nearing retirement and wanting to make sure their needs in later life will be catered for. Rather, Abbott and his cronies would rather scratch the backs of their mates in the big end of town. For the coalition to have responded to lobbying by the big four it seems there must have been a real concern by them that they wouldn't be able to dupe investors any more.
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:29pm
    And remember that the first bit of malicious legislation Abbott tinkered with was the proposed superannuation improvements left by the previous government. Changes for average Australians were dropped whilst those for the rich were retained. Tells a story. The same story as being told above.
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:29pm
    And remember that the first bit of malicious legislation Abbott tinkered with was the proposed superannuation improvements left by the previous government. Changes for average Australians were dropped whilst those for the rich were retained. Tells a story. The same story as being told above.
    Adrianus
    23rd Jun 2014
    4:19pm
    Can you repeat that please mick? What proposed Super improvements?
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:29am
    The previous government left reforms for superannuation before it lost office. On gaining power Abbott withdrew the reforms for average Australians but let those for the rich go through.
    Adrianus
    25th Jun 2014
    10:25am
    mick, you have not mentioned a single reform? Reform, meaning something which would benefit the wider population.
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    3:23pm
    I found the following which explains the 'changes' in a nutshell"

    "Shortly after being elected the Abbott government jettisoned the former Labor Government’s planned changes to superannuation, which would have seen tax concessions reduced on super funds earning over $100,000 per year. It also cancelled the Low Income Super Contribution (LISC) – a policy that refunds the 15% tax on super contributions for workers earning less than $37,000 a year."

    Basically, the wealthy who avoid their top marginal tax rate (48%) by putting heaps of their unneeded money into superannuation and pay only 15%....much less that workers on $37 000 pa. Abbott scuttled this tax. And then he had the hide to at the same time scuttle any chance poor Australians had of ever funding their own retirements.

    First rule of politics Frank: never ask a question to which you do not know the answer.
    Adrianus
    25th Jun 2014
    4:08pm
    Sorry mick, they weren't reforms. They were just fiddles to appease the unions. What they failed to understand was the $37,000 was too low a threshold so it was only of value to part time workers. the additional tax on fund earnings in excess of $100k was unfair after the changes they had made earlier in their disastrous time in office. You see, they found an irregularity when they looked into how they might be able to get their hands on more of the lucrative Super stash. Many Super Funds had invested using Instalment Warrants. Because by the very nature of the Warrant it meant that the benefit of the investment was available to the Fund but the payment on the Warrant came at a later date. So all the hard work during the OSSA period was about to come back and bite some people on the ..... So what did they do? They varied the interpretation of "Instalment Warrant" to include real property. Consequently many Fund managers went and bought real property. Just when this is getting bedded down and the ALP look like getting kicked out on their ears they introduce this additional tax. Again like the carbon tax costing more than it would raise. So that's why I don't regard those fiddles as real reform.
    Golden Oldie
    23rd Jun 2014
    12:34pm
    When I retired I sought advice from a number of financial advisors, including one from the big bank, who came up with the most expensive option for advice, and with the worst Statement of Advice. I finally found one who was independant and charged a fee for service, not commission, and not tied to a bank or insurance company owned by to a bank.
    I think that rolling back the safeguards for the investor stinks. Shame on the Liberal Party.

    23rd Jun 2014
    12:41pm
    No one looks after your money better than you do. I made it and am not into pie in the sky schemes from blokes that are still wet behind the ears. All hair oil and no socks. Its too hard to save without giving it to some pathetic whiz bang to lose.
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:34pm
    I've heard of plenty of folk who managed to lose their own hard earned money too. The best advice is, like election promises, listen but all but ignore promises. Rather weigh up the probabilities and always consider that advice, paid for or not, is more than likely for the benefit of the person giving it.
    There was a recent story on the ABC involving the Commonwealth Bank where it was shown that its wealth arm were making high risk calls for people who had specifically asked for this not to happen...and then went about shredding documents when the investigation began. Not one single day in jail for anybody and to my understanding the victims got nothing.
    I don't usually agree with you uninformed politics Dogs Body but I have to agree with you on this one.
    Adrianus
    23rd Jun 2014
    4:13pm
    So, look for a Bank Manager who votes Independent.
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    4:35pm
    Did they use a Cross Cut Shreader ??
    Or just have an ordinary old Hand Job ??
    Anonymous
    24th Jun 2014
    7:17am
    Hi Mick, Nice to know we are on the same page for a change.
    KSS
    23rd Jun 2014
    12:44pm
    Anyone who thinks they are getting unbiased advice from a designated financial institution (e.g. a bank) are under a misapprehension. They will only sell you their own product and then probably the one with the largest on-going commission for the sales person. It has always been thus and no legislation would change that.

    If you are seeking advice from a non-aligned independent advisor it is up to you to review the advice, read the small print and make up your own mind before instructing the 'advisor' what you want to do. They are called advisors for a reason; they ADVISE they cannot act without your say so. If they do then it is fraud and a criminal offense.

    Fraud exists in any system and is frequently aided and abetted by those not taking responsibility for their finances and chasing the get rich quick schemes. There will always be cases where companies fail and investment companies are no different. That's why they are called investments. They are risky, there are no guarantees and investments go down as well as up. No amount of legislation will protect an investor from that.

    In the case in the article where the home owner claims their income documents were forged by the bank, they presumably still accepted the loan for the property they purchased knowing they could not afford it. So who committed the fraud? The bank employees or the home owner who went along with it despite knowing they could not afford the loan? Until it was found out!
    Wstaton
    23rd Jun 2014
    12:55pm
    Advise yes, act no unless they forge your signature.

    What was once called the peoples bank is now the shareholders bank.
    KSS
    23rd Jun 2014
    1:04pm
    Wstaton forgery is a criminal offence. The first statement you receive would be an indication that all was not as you thought. Problem is many people do not read/check their statements.

    They are all shareholders banks! Good if you have a super fund given that the funds all invest in the banks. Not so much if you expect to be treated as an individual and advised accordingly.
    Tom Tank
    23rd Jun 2014
    1:05pm
    As I understand it the documents were completed in such a way that the home owners were unaware of the amount and details of the loan. They were well and truly conned and the there was, I believe, a bank employee involved in what was a scam.
    I am afraid the banks have shown no ethical or moral standards in their dealings of this type.
    What always gets me is that if someone holds up a bank and gets away with $10,000 they face a huge sentence when caught. If a financial scam nets $100,000 the perpetrators only face a slap on the wrist yet they, in my book, have committed the greater crime by betraying people's trust.
    What the legislation that is to be repealed tried to do was protect those who placed their trust in someone to give them honest advice. Obviously Tony et al don't believe in protecting consumers by removing the requirement that financial planners do give honest advice.
    Not everyone is finance savvy and on retirement many people have a significant amount of money that is way more than anything they have ever had before. To do the right thing they seek advice from an "expert". It has been shown that without legislation forcing some honesty and ethics upon them then many of these "experts" cannot be trusted.
    KSS
    23rd Jun 2014
    1:13pm
    The point is Tom Tank that if someone wants to commit fraud no amount of legislation telling them to be 'honest' will stop them. That is the same for the shop assistant pinching the odd $50 from the till, the floor walker at the stock exchange who runs off with multimillions or the financial advisor who syphons funds off the top.
    Wstaton
    23rd Jun 2014
    1:49pm
    What people seem to forget is that others go to advisers because they themselves are not experts much the same as going to the doctor because you do not have the knowledge to advise yourself on a medical problem. {mind you some try and then get into problems because of this)
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:38pm
    The whole point is that fraud has and is being committed by the big banks because their pockets are all but limitless and so they can defend themselves through several courts until the victims run out of money to fight with and become bankrupt. At that point the corrupt organisation wins. This is a part of the problem and a peoples government should not permit this to go on. But show me one government which does step in....and that's where Independents take up a fight...which is why both sides of politics do not want them in government.
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:37am
    KSS: the incident I was reporting on concerned the wealth creation arm of the Commonwealth Bank. One of the reported cases concerned an older couple who had invested their life savings. They just wanted to live off the returns and they specifically asked for "conservative" investments only because they were very conservative investors and did not want to take on risky products at this stage of their lives. The advisor then put them in high risk products which promptly crashed (because he made more money out of these) and then lied about what the clients had asked for as well as went and destroyed bank files so that he could not be caught out. it was fortunate that the clients had files which proved their claims and the bank was then caught with its pants down. The bank offered to pay them zilch to go away. Which bank? Answer: the most profitable in the land........and one which should never have been privatised.
    Adrianus
    26th Jun 2014
    7:42am
    mick. I remember when Keating sold the first 30%. Everyone I spoke with could not believe how cheap it was. There was a queue bigger than the one at the premiere of Star Wars. Around $6 ? Now around $81. In many respects this bank still appears to have a Public Service Culture. There seems to be a lot of staff looking unoccupied. Many mistakes occur. Poor customer service. I know at the time of the ALP government changes to our banking system, Banks were embracing this Alfinanz concept and that's when banking in Australia took a turn down Ruthless Avenue. The recently demutualised big life insurance companies looked for banks to partner. In the early 90's CBA merged with Colonial. Now if you know anything about life insurance companies, you know they have ways of squeezing a few bucks out of us. I personally know a few people who lost everything and had to come out of retirement to go back to work following the Storm debacle. But to their credit the CBA has made available around $600m compensation. I'm not saying this would not have occurred without the help of the ALP's incompetence but it did nothing to prevent it. mick You have been deceived by people like Wayne Swan who wants us to hate the big bad banks. Take a step back and think about it? The ALP is Dr Frankenstein and our banking system is the monster. It's ironic that the 2 worlds greatest Treasurers Keating and Swan give Australia 2 of it's biggest financial problems.
    MB100D
    23rd Jun 2014
    1:27pm
    I was after expert financial advice 8 years ago, went to 6 financial advisors and could not find one that I could trust. A couple advised me to take out a $250,000 loan and give it to them to invest in the stockmarket, this when I was about to retire in 3 years. I put myself through the Deakin Uni Financial Planners course and look after my money at a cost much less than the fees charged by these experts.
    I know they are not all incompetent parasites but the vast majority are, so be careful and if you can, look after your own.
    Anonymous
    23rd Jun 2014
    1:44pm
    Take out a loan and give it to them to invest... HA HA,,,a person who does that needs to apply for a brain transplant...not that it would do any good.....LOL
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:40pm
    Frontal lobotomy me thinks PIXAPD. Seriously Retired Knowall tell me you did not do this.
    Adrianus
    23rd Jun 2014
    4:35pm
    Yes good idea Retired Knowall. Are you now certified?

    23rd Jun 2014
    1:40pm
    I take interest from my bank.....I pay them NOTHING...for I know this truth, that the rich rule over the poor and the borrower is slave to the lender.
    Also if you have a retirement stream from your Super, always draw a yearly amount that never exceeds the fund earnings, and allows you to get the full pension.

    Be responsible for yourself and do not waste money on advisers, most are con artists, like seminars folks go to because they think they can get rich...the speaker who is most likely a former second hand car salesman is the only one getting rich, by the fee you pay him to tell you a load of crap......hee, hee.
    Wstaton
    23rd Jun 2014
    1:51pm
    Glad to see you are telling the truth PIXAPD.
    Anonymous
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:27pm
    Car salesmen ? whatever became of that wanna be politician Holden dealer Tony Packard?........ the one up the Windsor road from Baulkham Hills who wanted to do it right for you ! He did it right for his customers by bugging their conversations..
    Anonymous
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:34pm
    I tell the truth..that's what upsets folks, I am the great offender..... you can search for that on the net and hear me sing my little song....
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:45pm
    PIXAPD: Never accept your status of slave despite this being what we are all being subjected to, worldwide. I'll fight this one with every last breath I have which is why I keep carrying on about the only political way to slow down the wholesale attacks of the rich on the poor: vote the bastards out and better than that vote for a raft of Independents to set the cat amongst the pigeons. By no means think that you are doing your country a disservice voting this way as the opposite is true. The trouble is that this goes against the grain despite being the medicine which will fix the ailment.
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    3:34pm
    Hear! Hear !!.. I save money !! I come to this site to hear a load of crap from some !!
    Adrianus
    23rd Jun 2014
    4:31pm
    Yes PIXAPD, I'm also sick of paying for crap! Good point!!
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    5:05pm
    I set My Brown Cat among the Pigeons and the thought it was a loaf of bread and ate it ??
    Anonymous
    24th Jun 2014
    8:43am
    The slaves are those who OWE..they are the servants of the lenders and must slave to repay the debt, with much interest...if they do not they lose even the bed from under them...
    Adrianus
    24th Jun 2014
    9:51am
    If you want to know what real slavery is like, simply elect a government which will give us everything we want.
    particolor
    24th Jun 2014
    7:01pm
    HMM?? Better than Free Leg Irons !!
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:41am
    PIXAPD: Financial slavery is the new slavery. Pay 'em nothing to keep 'em poor, keep 'em working so that they do not have a chance to think and you keep your slaves.
    You are on the money. The detractors should hop on a plane and go to the US to see how the slavery system really works. This is the system John Howard fought so hard to implement here, better known as Work Choices Some choices!!).
    Tim@toc
    23rd Jun 2014
    1:56pm
    Debbie, after a lifetime of experience I can assure you there is no such animal as your "truly independent advisors?" The primary ambition of every one of them is to look out for their own interests first.

    Unfortunately we are all flying solo when it comes to investment decisions too bad for those of us without the necessary savvy.

    I like Retired Knowall's idea; "I put myself through the Deakin Uni Financial Planners course and look after my money at a cost much less than the fees charged by these experts." Brilliant idea.
    Adrianus
    24th Jun 2014
    8:27am
    Tim@toc. What if you told your advisor that you would pay for advice, nothing else? I think many people get confused between getting advice and getting sold an investment concept/product etc.? I agree with RK's strategy too. However, the FP Diploma is too much detail for a DIY investor. Maybe there should be a more concise FP course?
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:43am
    You do have to have your wits about you. If not heed the advice "a fool and his money are quickly parted".
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:04pm
    Well surprise, surprise, surprise. So that big business owned (Abbott) government AGAIN rules in favour of big business.
    I have been going on about this for some time. First there were the superannuation improvements for average Australians dropped whilst those for the rich retained. Then there was the budget which hit average Australians again whilst delivering a 1.5% tax cut for big business and the rich. And now we are seeing the big banks protected from fraudulent behaviour by a watering down of the rules which were introduced in the light of many average Australians losing their shirts because banks went after them and in some cases have been shown to have acted fraudulently.
    Australians for the main part were conned and this is till going on. Whilst I hear about an apparent high debt under Labor, the "end of entitlement" and "heavy lifting" what I see is a monumental shell game, wholesale deceitful intentional lying and ordinary Australians confused with apparent reassurances and data which are complete fabrications. About the only positive piece of news from this morally corrupt government is that boat people have been stopped and I comment this bunch of malicious cut throats for that, but for nothing else.
    Where have our ethics gone? Do Australians not react as one against this sort of morally corrupt behaviour....or do we condone it because many have always voted for this side of politics. Time for a change me thinks.
    KSS
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:11pm
    Mick please, the banks are not being protected from fraudulent behaviour. If there is fraud they would still be prosecuted for fraud - at least the person responsible for it would be. Fraud is and will still be a criminal offence.
    Adrianus
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:41pm
    Woa!! Mick put yer guns back in the holsters there partner!
    MICK
    23rd Jun 2014
    2:59pm
    Respectfully guys banks do commit 'fraud'. When you have rogue salesmen who are given carte blanche to make as much money for the bank as they can with a blind eye from supervisors then I call this fraud.
    There was a story about the Commonwealth Bank in recent times involving the wealth creation arm of the bank, where there was no accountability. There were huge profits as well as funded holidays and big bonuses for the salesmen who delivered the goods. To my understanding the bank did not ever pay back the customers who were effectively ruined. One had signed copies of letters/emails where the customers had demanded "conservative investments only". So they were put into very high risk investments WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE OR APPROVAL . No compensation from the bank to my knowledge. And this is but one story in many which follow a similar storyline.
    Don't try and protect the guilty guys. Bad behaviour needs to be hit hard so that it stops, not protected and hidden. If this is not corrupt behaviour then I don't know what is.
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    3:41pm
    Corruption is the distance between Hear! Hear!! and Poverty ...
    Adrianus
    23rd Jun 2014
    4:40pm
    mick you say "So they were put into very high risk investments WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE OR APPROVAL ." Do you have proof of this?
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:46am
    The expose was aired on the ABC. There was written proof even though the adviser destroyed boxes of documents when he was caught out. The corruption is that the guy was defended by the bank and did not do jail time whilst the victims (there were dozens of these) lost much of their life savings. It always ends the same way.
    Reeper
    23rd Jun 2014
    3:57pm
    Don't blame governments of any nature for the ills in the banking industry. I gave up with the major banks some years ago in favour of a credit union and have never looked back. I got my mortgage through a broker, at no cost to me, and got a fantastic deal not from a major bank.
    Banking is a law unto itself; it has the power to damage governments let alone the poor domestic customer. The answer is for more and more people to put their genuine concerns about major banks into the public forum. Regardless of how you bank, remember you pay for the services so the next time some bored teller becomes patronising when you complain, let them know you plan to relate your experience via your social network or even to authorities. Stay away from certain 'community banks' because they have agendas....
    Nightshade
    23rd Jun 2014
    5:38pm
    THE GLOBAL BANKING SECTOR & FINANCIAL MARKETS DO NOT TRUST EACH OTHER -
    THERE IS VERY LITTLE OR NO BUSINESS BEING DONE IN THE WORLD TODAY. CERTAINLY CORPORATIONS LEARNED A LONG TIME AGO THAT THE BANK WAS THE ENEMY & MADE OTHER ARRANGEMENTS RATHER THAN DO BUSINESS WITH THE BANKING & FINANCIAL WORLD OF "HOOK THEM UP & LOOT THEM CORPORATE RAIDING."
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    7:08pm
    ROUND EM UP, HEAD EM IN !!...RAWHIDE !!!!
    Patriot
    23rd Jun 2014
    5:41pm
    A government of a country which HAS the GALL to convince people to PAY AGAIN for a bank they own already (The Commonwealth many years ago) has absolutely NO CREDIBILITY & INTEGRITY left relating to financial matters.
    I just wish we had learned something since then!
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    6:50pm
    Watch out !! They will sell US into Slavery next !!
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:50am
    Your humour ignores the fact that there already is financial slavery in western countries. The US is at the top of the heap. It is blatant and there for all to see. Go check. In Australia we have financial oppression but the divide between rich and poor is getting us to the same point. Give it a bit of time and look at the implications of the budget and the fact that Hockey stated at the end of his speech that "we're not finished yet".
    Nightshade
    23rd Jun 2014
    5:43pm
    I CAN LOOK INTO MY CRYSTAL BALL & TELL YOU ALL FOR CERTAIN THAT THE BANKING SECTOR WILL BE FROZEN OUT OF GLOBAL BUSINESS FORTHWITH BECAUSE OF THE NON-TRUST-WORTHY-NESS.
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    6:52pm
    I looked into My Crystal Ball and saw a BIG FAT CUBAN ??
    Nightshade
    23rd Jun 2014
    5:48pm
    TONY ABBOTT CAN REGULATE / DEREGULATE & CHANGE LEGISLATION ALL HE WANTS -
    TONY ABBOTT IS NOT A PLAYER IN ANY WAY IN THE BIG BAD WORLD OF CORPORATE DEALS.
    In fact TONY ABBOTT will probably loose the next election -
    TONY ABBOTT has GOOFY, DONALD DUCK & CO as his SPIN DOCTORS & SCRIPT WRITERS.
    Good luck man your gunna need it !
    particolor
    24th Jun 2014
    8:08am
    It's Very SAD when a Country puts their Wealth in Front of the Welfare of its People !!
    Particolor..2014
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:52am
    So who do you think is at the centre of what is happening at the moment. Do you think that protections for customers are really being removed because of "red tape"? You need to understand that the banks and the Liberal Party have a symbiotic arrangement and that Abbott will do whatever he can to help (not us).
    Mar
    23rd Jun 2014
    5:59pm
    Have been with a Credit Union for 35 years. Never had a problem. Have also had financial advice from them, with no pressure and a list of options I could work out for myself. Would never go back to a bank.
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    7:00pm
    Before I get a Faster Get Away Car
    Nightshade
    23rd Jun 2014
    6:04pm
    VICTIMS :-
    Did you know ?
    That there is/are security systems that - if a potential thief were to try & access the banking system with the view to committing inappropriate acts.
    The Security System is designed to anticipate & identify irregularities = you doing your thing dude !
    Once you are identified as a potential - it segments you / contains you / engages with you / keeps you occupied / mistakenly believing that you are getting in / it alerts the relevant authority / it tracks you to your location / so as to have you apprehended immediately.
    How cool is that #
    Q:- how is it that banks are being hacked into & monies stolen ?
    Russian Mafia or In House Theft ?
    particolor
    23rd Jun 2014
    7:04pm
    That's Great !! Does it feed You and Kiss You Goodnight ??
    Anonymous
    24th Jun 2014
    7:20am
    Did you know that where money is concerned, all men are bastards.
    Adrianus
    24th Jun 2014
    7:59am
    Nightshade. Banks and big business all suffer from employee theft regularly and in most cases it goes unreported. Many times the employees are unaware that they have been found out because the employer has too many other problems to deal with. In the case of banks they don't report a theft unless the amount is a certain number of dollars.
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    3:26pm
    Hey Frank...which bank do you work for? Or are you trolling for a bank? Some of your posts sound very hollow to say the least and you do a fair bit of (bank) flag waving.
    Adrianus
    25th Jun 2014
    3:47pm
    Don't work for a bank. What's a troll by the way? When you say some of my posts sound very hollow, what do you mean? Aren't I allowed to have an opinion like everyone else? I'm a nobody, but I keep my eyes and ears open all the time, so I pick up a lot. I am thinking of starting a political party now that I understand that you don't need to have policies. I could use someone with your enthusiasm?
    Young Simmo
    23rd Jun 2014
    11:37pm
    Yep, I forgot to tick the box below, that's all.
    particolor
    24th Jun 2014
    8:04am
    Too late now.. Tick the Box, Post Again and say Something this time ??
    Adrianus
    24th Jun 2014
    6:59am
    Of course the real problem in these scams is the relationship which exists between the Lender and Investment Advisor. These two entities should be arms length and operate independently from each other. The ALP government were asking for trouble when they gave the go ahead for Investment advisors to also provide advice on borrowing. All these scams have this in common, ie Storm Financial. Let's hope FoFA addresses this issue.
    Adrianus
    25th Jun 2014
    8:59am
    Julia Gillard's negotiating skill would have been tested when it came to dealing with the banks. Giving them money would have been like shipping sand to the Arabs.
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:56am
    Never though of it in those term Frank. You may have a point.
    Pickles
    24th Jun 2014
    1:02pm
    This type of fraud is common knowledge with the banks and they choose to turn a blind eye; back in 1985 l helped investigate a similar fraud carried out by a lawyer on over 50 of his clients and at the time the banks tried every legal avenue to not provide us with evidence or to prevent us interviewing their staff, in one case l recall jumping a counter in a bank and chasing a staff member around the desks to serve a summons on him. The banks dont care.
    Adrianus
    24th Jun 2014
    2:13pm
    That would have been my lawyer and bank manager. Good work Pickles!!! They can run but they cant hide!!
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:57am
    Rules for some and (different) rules for others. This seems to be a recurring theme in Australian life.
    Ahjay
    24th Jun 2014
    1:48pm
    People used to rob banks, people now go to banks to be robbed.
    Financial literacy should be taught in schools.
    Unfortunately, slavery was never abolished,only the means of enslavement was changed.
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:58am
    Funny. Crooks now don't often rob banks. They hit private homes and small business because these are easy targets.
    geomac
    24th Jun 2014
    5:45pm
    How can any govt go against a law that a bank employee advises a customer for the customers benefit and not the banks ? I cannot understand the clear and basic principle of public good being trashed for bank greed .
    Adrianus
    24th Jun 2014
    5:58pm
    Why shouldn't that be the case with all business and government bodies like Centerlink . The customer comes first. If it must be at the expense of the employer then so be it!
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    9:59am
    Tells you something about governments and who they serve. Certainly not the public other than in a token manner so that the feeble minded do not see who is really at the helm.
    jackeroo
    24th Jun 2014
    8:01pm
    Paul K eating deregulated the banks and started the ball rolling and then future Labor prawns were trying to outdo each other in the stupidity games.
    Adrianus
    24th Jun 2014
    8:41pm
    Yes, I remember that and he also developed what he called his 4 pillar policy. He loved words that fitted together like poetry.
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    10:02am
    True jackeroo.
    The World's Greatest Treasurer (ha, ha) Wayne Swan was of the opinion that selling our freehold farming land to foreign governments was a great idea too...and the current bunch believe the same. We don't have much of a hope do we?
    geomac
    24th Jun 2014
    10:43pm
    What could be so urgent that the government needs to sneak it through by regulations rather than wait until the new Senate meets on July 7?
    It’s the destruction of parts of Labor’s financial advice law. The government can’t wait until July 7, because the law will bite before then.
    From July 1 banks will have to stop rewarding their financial planners and tellers for steering customers into the banks' own products. Not only that, financial advisers will be forced to tell their former clients exactly how much they are continuing to take from their accounts.
    That’s why, just two days before the July 1 deadline, Finance Minister Mathias Cormann will ask the Governor-General to sign a regulation that purports to negate those parts of Labor’s law.
    Of doubtful constitutional validity (regulations are meant to support the aims of laws, not negate them) it’ll stay in place until it is struck down by the High Court or struck down by the new Senate after it is sworn in.


    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/financial-advice-law-meddling-raises-the-question-why-bother-20140623-zsijh.html#ixzz35YmiAx4s
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    10:06am
    This is a political decision for big business mates. Same as the Carbon Tax: it is working but being wound back to pay off the coal industry. Same as all renewable bodies which are being closed down: so that the coal industry has no competition and thrives. What a country we live in........big business with governments protecting them.
    The above article makes the point clearly. Just more of the same.
    Not Senile Yet!
    24th Jun 2014
    11:03pm
    You guys all seem to forget that the actual corruption in any system is in fact the human participants!
    Labelling the banks do this or do that......No! It is the People within the Banks implement these policies to prove how smart they are to their bosses....hoping for promotion...reward!
    People who structure the employees pay so that they are rewarded if they catch and unsuspecting customer.
    It's a copy cat structure from the good old USA.
    There they are all on a minimum wage...then paid outrageous bonuses to flog their products. Perform or die mentality....Can't produce......replace them with someone who can or will blindly obey......saves the company a fortune on LSL,A/Leave and Sick Leave.
    Turnover goes up....but no one cares as long as productivity is constant......why?......because the company can claim all the training as a tax deduction....and it eliminates anyone staying long enough to be promoted......You can't have the top challenged by the bottom....... that sounds like competition within the corporates!
    ....No no no! That will not do at all!
    Banks, Corporates, Governments, Armies, Parties.....they all run the same way......Keep them lean and mean....keep them desperate and hungry.....make them greed for more......then they will obey without thought or morals!
    Yes....people can be groomed......they are!
    How do you think Abbot and Hocking got to where they are?
    MICK
    25th Jun 2014
    10:10am
    The problem is not there there is "corruption" Not Senile Yet. The real problem is that in Australia white collar crime is all but acceptable instead of being hit hard and the criminals being jailed rather than on the rare occasions when they are caught being permitted to leave the courts with no more than a warning or a slap on the wrist. The courts are actually the cause of an escalation of financial crimes because they have devalued the crime. But the victims can tell you that the crime is in no way a misdemeanor.
    Abby
    26th Jun 2014
    1:29pm
    Mick
    In that case you have to go back to who makes the laws - Politicians ?
    And you will find corruption.
    MICK
    26th Jun 2014
    8:29pm
    Check out the story run on the 7:30 Report (Sydney) on Thursday 26/6/14. It says quite a lot about this story which some people on this site are unaware. The bank (which bank?) is shown as quite the culprit. Link:

    http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/archives/2014/730_201406.htm

    Tonight's program is not there at time of comment so give it a day. Happy reading.
    Cuddles
    27th Jun 2014
    11:34am
    Thought I would finally comment on this topic. I'm going to put my hand up and say that, yes, I'm one of those "dreaded" financial planners. However, I don’t work for CBA. I work for an independent company, though I am licensed through a large dealer group. We employ around 30 staff and covering financial planning, accounting, general insurance & mortgage broking.

    Im not going to get into an argument with any of you regarding what I do for a living.

    All I will say is that I ALWAYS look after my clients best interest. I don’t need any legislation to do that, as I already do it. To me, the only change FOFA has done, is increased my paperwork, meaning that it increases our costs, which flow through to clients. It hasn’t impacted on how I deal with clients, as, as I said before, my clients best interests are always my first priority.

    I am paid a straight salary regardless of what business I generate and I do not get paid bonuses. We have been on fee for service for over 5 years, meaning that all trail commission is rebated back to the clients where possible. Where it is not possible, due to product restrictions, we donate the trail comms to charities, particularly ones that do not get much government assistance.

    With regards to products we recommend, firstly I will say that I always look at strategy first, then select a product to complement the strategy and meets all the clients need (not my needs). Yes, we have an approved product list, but we are able to recommend products outside this list if it is in the best interest of the client. Particularly, we often recommend the client keep their existing industry fund super, not because the product is cheaper (cheap is not often the best), but due to factors like insurance.

    Our main barrier from recommending industry funds, is that clients often cannot afford to pay for our advice via their cash flow. The people who need advice the most, are the ones that cannot afford to pay for it out of their cash flow. So yes, we charge a fee for service though product, but most industry funds will not allow financial planners to deduct fees from their products (even one off fees). They only allow their own planners to do this. This means that the people who need advice, cannot afford it. Or do we provide advice for nothing????

    All our clients are reviewed either yearly or half-yearly (depending on their needs) and they are advised what fees we have charged during the previous period and sign an agreement for the fees for the next period.

    Yes, there are financial planners out there that do the wrong thing, but there are also many mortgage brokers, insurance brokers, accountants etc who also do the wrong thing by their clients.

    But there are many out there that DO put their clients’ interests first.

    I thought to highlight the following article - “Senate call for CommBank royal commission” in today’s news - http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/aap/8866132/call-for-commbank-to-face-royal-commission

    It’s not just financial planners that are an issue, but also our regulatory body, ASIC, who do not investigate people’s concerns in a speedy manner or take the appropriate action
    Adrianus
    27th Jun 2014
    1:24pm
    Cuddles, you are probably one of the small majority out there doing the right thing. The irony is the more difficult the government makes your job the more out of reach your services become for those who need it and already cant afford it. I don't get any advice from my Planner anymore because I refuse to go through all the nonsense and sign a form which states that I agree to pay up to $20,000 for the advice. ASIC had plenty of opportunity to investigate the practises of Storm Financial, as an example, and chose to do nothing after being made aware. I notice your company also has a mortgage brokerage, in the wrong hands this can be a recipe for disaster.
    geomac
    27th Jun 2014
    6:25pm
    As I understand it the banks are pushing for financial advisor rules to be relaxed . The independent financial services group wants the client protections to remain . The big question is why any govt would want to remove or weaken a law that says a financial consultant has to advise for a clients benefit . Its almost a Monty Python sketch scenario . The dept of silly laws instead of silly walks .
    Jen
    27th Jun 2014
    8:38pm
    Dead right geomac. Sometimes I think the world's gone mad.


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