Can Budget tax cuts make a difference for retirees?

Economist tells whether tax changes can benefit older Australians.

Can Budget tax cuts make a difference for retirees?

In the lead-up to the Federal Budget 2018, there has been a lot of speculation about tax cuts. The company tax cuts in last year’s Budget have stalled in the Senate as the crossbenchers continue to ask whether such cuts are the best use of the nation’s money. But in Budget 2018-19, the last budget before the next federal election, it is widely tipped that there will be income tax cuts for most workers.

The question YourLifeChoices is asking is whether these suggested cuts will be of any real benefit to retirees – or to the wider population?

We spoke with Matt Grudnoff, senior economist at The Australian Institute, to gain a better understanding of who might benefit most from income tax cuts. Mr Grudnoff is the statistician behind the quarterly YourLifeChoices Retirement Affordability Index and has an insight on who is most likely to be affected by the suggested policy changes.

The first point he made was that, while many retirees are required to file tax returns, the overwhelming majority – around 90 per cent – do not pay tax. This percentage is difficult to calculate as tax returns do not show retirement status. However, the landscape of retirement, with 70 per cent on full or part Age Pensions, allows us to ascertain that very few are paying tax.

Mr Grudnoff says: “The overwhelming majority of retirees pay no tax and therefore will receive no benefit from such an income tax cut.

“They may, however, be very concerned that a tax cut reduces the amount of money that governments can spend on health services and the Age Pension – things that retirees depend on.”

We also asked Mr Grudnoff if an income tax cut was sensible policy?

He said: “From what The Australia Institute has heard, this year’s budget revenue position has improved. This, however, is a temporary situation.

“It comes largely from an increase in corporate tax. Are large companies paying their fair share of tax? Not exactly, the increase is because, in recent years, many companies made losses that they offset against their tax.

“This year, these losses can no longer be carried forward. In effect, the tax write-offs have come to an end and this has resulted in a spike in company tax received. However, when viewed in the longer term, this could be described as illusionary. These tax receipts could disappear just as quickly.

“So if you hand out permanent income tax cuts funded by temporary windfall gains, you will create budget shortfalls in the future.

“And government expenditure on basic services including health and education needs to be maintained on an ongoing basis.

“If the windfall gain disappears, then we will be back to the budget ‘debt and deficit crisis’ of 2014 and the Hockey Budget that was proposing GP co-payments and cuts to services, including a change to the indexation of the Age Pension,” Mr Grudnoff said.

Put simply, the tax cuts will benefit only the wealthiest 10 per cent of retirees and have no benefit for the other 90 per cent. And they may set Australians up for serious budget pain further down the track.

YourLifeChoices will have two journalists in Canberra for Federal Budget 2018. Look out for our special Budget night email that will detail the key announcements affecting you and for our comprehensive wrap on Wednesday of all the Budget items that will hurt or help your hip pocket.

What’s your situation? Are you paying tax? Will a tax cut benefit your household? Do you believe this money could be better spent on other services?

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    COMMENTS

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    Adrianus
    7th May 2018
    9:04am
    Mr Grudnoff must be referring to the $20,000 instant write off which comes to an end this year, FY 18.
    I personally think tax cuts for both business and individuals is a great idea. Consider it if you will a more sensible type of Rudd stimulus package? It serves to strengthen the economy, which provides a long term approach to their Jobs and Growth policy. As opposed to the Rudd Stimulus cash splash which was largely spent on credit card debt, petrol, cigarettes, pokies, booze and TVs. This type of short term stimulus only served to benefit the wealthy capitalists. Similarly the pink batts program, created 10,500 jobs for 6 months, and destroyed an industry. So yes I disagree with our guest economist.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    11:25am
    All those Rudd things pay tax, and that money was rapidly re-absorbed into the economy and thus into tax one way or another.

    Kevin Kash was really no different from offering a company a stimulus package and having it then buy an Australian made machine.... the difference comes into play when any tax cut for a company is spent on equipment etc paid for overseas or goes straight into offshore (alleged non) profit or 'dead stock' "investment", such as dividends to people who do not spend their money here. When that happens - that money is lost to THIS economy, and that is the huge difference between Kevin Kash and Cormannator Cash.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    11:45am
    The LNP admits that their research shows that no economic benefit will flow to 95% of the population from company tax cuts. They cannot explain why they are persisting with them despite this knowledge. They refer to ''gut instinct'' and claim it more reliable than data from careful independent analysis.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    11:53am
    Dang - that 'gut instinct' must be like the 'gut instinct' of the copper who still says Lindy Chamberlain was guilty.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    12:22pm
    OGR you continually amaze me with the stupidity of your utterances. If most developed economies have a company tax rate well and truly below ours, what incentive is there for a company to set up in Oz? How difficult a concept is that to grasp? Yes, I know it is a shocking thing that an entrepreneur (or collective of same), would stump up the cash to establish an enterprize that employs people, in the expectation that they will generate a profit. How dare they! Far better to allow a government run initiative to take on that task, and look at how successful that turned out in the Soviet Union! No, we don't want or need capitalism in this country by jingo, we all might have the temerity to prosper! Wake up to yourself OGR, or go and live in Moscow - you would be much happier!
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    12:29pm
    I agree Big Al cut company tax to 15% and we will have more revenue than we know what to do with.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    12:39pm
    Big Al, I won't be rude enough to suggest you - or your comments - are ''stupid'', but you are INCORRECT. Most developed economies have company tax rates equal to or well ABOVE ours. There is huge incentive for companies to set up in Oz, because overall the business environment is far better than in most countries, and there is a market that attracts.

    Profits have been soaring over the past two years, and NOT ONCE CENT has flowed to the government or the people.

    Of course entrepreneurs want to profit from their ventures, and THEY ARE - VERY HANDSOMELY THANKS FOR COMING! So handsomely that they are confident to tell the government, quite honestly, that they have NO INTENTION of benefiting the nation in any way with any benefit they gain from tax cuts. And they cannot name a single company where tax cuts have yielded benefit to the nation or the working class. They are not even embarrassed to admit their own greed and selfishness.

    YOU should wake up to yourself. Communism doesn't work, but neither does extreme capitalism that drives a noble/slave society - which is what YOU and YOUR ILK are chasing.

    OG, it hasn't happened anywhere else, and company executives are freely admitting there will be NO BENEFIT to the majority or the nation from company tax cuts - as is the LNP.

    Get over yourselves, both of you. You are sprouting PURE GARBAGE that has been CONCLUSIVELY EVIDENCED and OPENLY ADMITTED to be TOTALLY WRONG.

    And Big Al, learn some manners. You know nothing about me and suggesting I am Communist only evidences both your ignorance and your disgusting rudeness.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    12:46pm
    It is truly amazing how you can tell where a person sits in society simply about how the see things.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    12:50pm
    In that case, big Al - why are they lining up to operate here?

    a. Because under our very loose tax system they know they can offshore the majority of their profit as 'loss' and effectively pay little to NO company tax.

    Besides - as I said before - why would they bother to shift their 'head office' from a tax haven to here, and incur the costs of doing so, even if the tax rate was the same?
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    12:52pm
    I think you, OG and Big Al - owe Rainey an apology for your excess.

    Stick to the subject, play the game, and not the man.... you have no idea where people stand, OG - many.. many. well-heeled people way exactly the same as Rainey said - it's just that they know the difference between truth and lies told to them.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    12:56pm
    Trebor it has nothing to do with truths, untruths, lies or facts. It is their way of thinking that distinguishes people from one another. To more from one class of people to another involves a complete change of mindset.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    1:00pm
    I remember one of my kids got into trouble as they told their teacher they didn't want to get a job they wanted to be their own boss instead. They also asked the teacher to teach them how as they didn't want to be a slave to some one else.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    1:10pm
    It has everything to do with you having no right or knowledge to judge, and then make public statements about those you have judged by that lack of standard.

    Rainey was simply stating what is common knowledge by now and well discussed in the media - 95% of the population will receive no benefit from company tax cuts, according to the LNPs own 'think tank'.

    There is no need or reason whatsoever for a rant about 'communism' as Rainey copped for that simple statement.

    A nation/government is not in place to benefit corporations and companies and a small select group that benefit from those - it is in place to handle the economy on behalf of ALL citizens and for the best benefit of ALL citizens.

    When it is clear that a measure will not benefit 95% but will exacerbate social and economic division to the short and long term detriment of the nation - it is a false measure, and Rainey had every right to say so.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    1:16pm
    I also have the right to disagree.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    1:24pm
    OGR - your statement that we are a low taxing (in terms of the rate of company tax), nation, is simply not true! Of the 20 leading economies (including the usual suspects, USA, Canada, UK, Germany etc etc) we currently have the fourth highest company tax rate (according to the Fin Review). And for the record, I did not suggest, or call you a communist - it is just that you seem so dissatisfied in this relatively free society, I thought you might be happier somewhere where you can be told what to think, why to think and how to think. Which by the rubbish you come out with, would be a giant step forward for you!
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    1:27pm
    But the effective rate paid by companies is far less....

    https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/10/turns-australias-company-tax-rate-isnt-high/

    "Our average corporate tax rate, however, is just 17 per cent, and when it comes to effective corporate taxes, companies in Australia pay just 10.4 per cent."
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    1:27pm
    Look at the chart on that link - even India charges higher than Australia.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    2:02pm
    ... and Mexico (LMAO)
    arbee
    7th May 2018
    2:22pm
    OG you are so right with your comment about where a person sits in society. A post like this one sure brings out the left wing socialists in droves.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    2:53pm
    .. and also the lost drones in droves.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    2:59pm
    Yes arbee I'm having a good chuckle to myself especially after the last comment.
    Sal
    7th May 2018
    3:09pm
    Trebor that chart isn't a good comparison. For 2 reasons. It uses 2012 data and I believe USA has reduced its rates since then. Secondly In the report, CBO compares average corporate tax rates for U.S.-owned foreign companies with the rates faced by foreign-owned companies incor-porated in the United States. It does not take into account non US owned companies and only shows the G20 countries. On top of that it is full of estimations. Read the whole report.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    3:40pm
    That chart made little sense to me as well.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    4:29pm
    Very little makes sense to you, OG - you only ever add negatives to a discussion... and seem remarkably economically illiterate for one who claims to be in the top 10% of earners.

    Try this one then:-

    https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-income-tax-rates-around-the-world-2017/

    The average STATUTORY (not the effective) corporate tax rate by region is interesting. Hardly enough difference to cause a ripple in reality, so the argument remains - is there any value in decreasing company/corporate tax to match tax havens?

    Again I say no because there is zero benefit to be gained, and besides, the effective tax rate of corporations here is extremely low.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    4:34pm
    https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/tax-rates-online/corporate-tax-rates-table.html

    https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corporate-tax-rate

    Again this is misleading, since you need to look at the effective tax rate and not the mandated yardstick.

    "Comparisons of corporate tax rates should focus on the measures that reflect what companies actually pay, not the top statutory rate. Proponents of slashing the corporate tax rate often note the U.S. statutory tax rate is the highest among developed countries. But many U.S. companies use an array of targeted tax breaks and loopholes to significantly lower the taxes they pay."

    https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/actual-us-corporate-tax-rates-are-in-line-with-comparable-countries
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    4:54pm
    You sure do, OG, but intelligent debaters present FACTS and LOGICAL ARGUMENT. They don't just keep insisting they are right and insulting anyone who disagrees with them.

    I am not a communist - or even a socialist - and I've succeeded very well in more recent years, engaging in profitable business enterprises. I am doing very well now working as an independent contractor, and although I choose to be semi-retired, I make good money for the hours I choose to work and I am well respected by some innovative and highly successful entrepreneur clients. Company tax cuts might actually benefit me, but I'm NOT selfish. I care about the welfare of the nation as a whole, and I care for people who don't have the capacity to succeed as you and I have. It may surprise you to know that it IS NOT THEIR FAULT. We don't all have equal talent, opportunity or guidance and support.

    I am not wealthy because I started out seriously disadvantaged and fought poverty, sickness, and crisis for decades. But I believe in capitalism - provided it is tempered with the right degree of socialism and is balanced and fair. And I read, study, and listen so that I can base my opinions on relevant data. I quoted the LNP themselves, expert economists, and company executives. I also referenced factual data from overseas. I'm sorry if fact offends you, OG, but neither you nor Big Al had cause to be insulting, and if you wish to disagree, perhaps you should come up with some sensible argument rather than just ranting with your unqualified and unsubstantiated ''opinion'' which, as reflects you as a bigoted snob.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:00pm
    And for the ill-informed among you, I recently spent time in the USA, living in the home of an accountant who specialises in helping companies relocate to Australia. He spelled out for me the MASSIVE tax disincentives in the US system and the HUGE benefits of relocation. And everything he told me is absolutely CURRENT. Nothing has changed except for a few new levies that make their tax rate higher (though their nominal rate is low, as it excludes a host additional of levies and charges).

    And arbee, if you or OG are judging me as a ''leftie'' then you have no idea where I sit in society, much less any ability to interpret anything intelligently. I supported the LNP until recently. I despise Labor (as many who actually READ my posts know). I have no time for 'lefties', and I often speak out about the stupid welfare system that over-indulges spendthrifts and bludgers and punishes the enterprising and the responsible. But people who JUDGE OTHERS are almost ALWAYS WRONG.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:05pm
    And we all know where OG sits in society, because all he ever posts is rants favouring stinking elitist policies that enrich the wealthy further and hurt anyone who isn't privileged. He even supported the change in the assets test, despite saying that it mean anyone with less than $2 million would be worse off than a pensioner. In other words, he not only can't reference data to back up his 'opinions'. but he can't even be consistent or logical. But then, that's a classic symptom of a narcissist, and certainly his posts imply strong narcissistic tendencies.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    5:21pm
    Yes I say it again. I still support the change in the asset test and yes most couples with under $2 million are worse off than those on the OAP. However if interest rates rise to normal levels they will be better off than those on the full OAP. Also if they are creative then they can also make more than the OAP in our current markets. So if you sit on your bum and just let the bank make money out of your money by giving you a mere pittance then you are behind the eighth ball. If that's being elite then so be it.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    6:39pm
    What an IDIOTIC remark! So it's okay to stuff up the country by making it more attractive to be a pensioner than to retain savings, because one day interest rates MIGHT return to normal levels and then things will be different! Unbelievable that anyone could tout such IDIOTIC policy. An INTELLIGENT person would wait until the interest rates DO rise - if ever - before changing the policy. Only a blithering idiot or a moron with a selfish ulterior motive would rely on claims of what MIGHT happen in the future (but probably won't any time soon) to make a change that is detrimental now.

    And nothing to do with bank interest. The AVERAGE return from acceptable risk investments is 5% or less. And the government is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LOOKING AFTER ONLY THE ELITE. That's snobbery, elitism, and stinking vile social engineering.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    7:52pm
    I just love insults because people only insult me when I am right.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    8:30pm
    Somebody tell 'im e's dreamin'....
    Rae
    8th May 2018
    7:27am
    If we lose foreign investment money our economy will be in crisis. We are importing too much high value items and not exporting enough. If the tax cuts build either export capacity or import replacement then they will keep the economy ticking along. That benefits all of us.

    If we can't then rates will rise, the currency will collapse and it will be very unpleasant especially for welfare recipients who may face not only price rises but pension cuts.

    Sometimes it isn't about the 95% wallets but the whole picture.

    You can't keep on spending more than you earn individual or country. You can't keep building up debt as at some point the bill arrives and you must pay back.

    How do we keep foreign investment? We do what all the other countries are doing, lower corporate taxes and hope we can avoid financial armageddon.

    OG on this you are right and the crazy press who are possibly living on debt like most of the younger generations can't see the problem either. Just tap and go and isn't it wonderful.
    Old Geezer
    8th May 2018
    11:28am
    I agree Rae.

    Yes tap and go is wonderful for the crims who steal you cards. Mine now all have tap and go turned off. I figure if they steal my card then they will just bin when tap and go doesn't work for them. That saves me a lot of hassle telling the bank I didn't make those purchases.

    How many save their receipts and check their statements every month too? My family laugh at me for doing just that.
    GeorgeM
    8th May 2018
    1:18pm
    OGR and Trebor are right - the real problem we have is that many companies have an Effective Rate of Tax as ZERO or Negligible!

    We badly need a Minimum Tax system (as in USA) to ensure all pay fair and reasonable taxes BEFORE any scheme to reduce any taxes is considered in the future. Both major patties have ignored this issue and stuffed up the Australian people.
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    4:16pm
    I would be the first to support company tax cuts if there were any evidence that they will benefit the nation, but even the LNP and business leaders admit there will be no benefit, and other nations where they have cut corporate tax rates reported benefit only to the richest 5% and no gain for the nation. It's all very well to work on assumptions and ''gut instinct'', but when the evidence so conclusively supports leaving tax rates as they are that even those who will benefit from a cut can't offer justification, intelligent people pay attention.

    Yes, George, we do need a minimum tax system. We also need to recognize that our tax rates are very low by world standards, despite the warped picture presented by quoting nominal rates.

    What we really need is to tell the greedy, self-serving multi-nationals who want to pillage and plunder to leave NOW, and support the Japanese approach of promoting paying fair tax as honourable, rather than something to be avoided. The Japanese see tax as the cost of a healthy society and believe even striving to reduce tax a little is shameful and brings you into disgrace. Instead of this BS promoting it as everyone's obligation to minimise tax, we should be pushing for understanding of the huge benefits of contributing to society. Then we would not need to reduce the company rate - though over time we could cut ALL tax rates because we could achieve the revenues needed to eliminate debt and deficit and maintain a healthy society.

    The grocer who serviced our town when I was a child sought to minimize tax because he believed the government was inefficient and wasteful, but he calculated the tax he'd pay with no deductions or rebates, subtracted what he actually paid, and donated the rest to the community to fund services for the sick, disabled, elderly and struggling families. He used hia savings to donate food hampers to needy families and deliver loads of chopped wood free to the elderly, and to pay teenagers from poorer families to mow lawns and carry firewood for the aged and sick. If only we could get back to this kind of community spirit and social conscience, we wouldn't have to argue about the merits of cutting company taxes. Honestly, if a business doesn't want to pay tax at the rate needed to fund the services this nation requires, then we shouldn't want them here. Why on earth would ANYONE want to cut taxes to attract rorters and cheats and business operators with no social conscience? All that achieves is to destroy everything that used to be good about Australia.
    GeorgeM
    9th May 2018
    12:00am
    Good comments again, OGR. I wish it was compulsory reading for Liberals & Labor MPs to read so many great comments on YLC!
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    11:57am
    Big Al you cannot compare our company tax with other countries, they are structured differently, it is like comparing Apples with Oranges. I would also say there are just as many Right Wing commentators here as there are Lefties and that's the way it should be and no need to sling off at one another just because you have a different view.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    12:00pm
    The comment about L and R commentatore was in a reply to a comment by arbee.
    mogo51
    7th May 2018
    10:13am
    We are repeatedly told that the Aged Pension is under pressure, not sustainable etc.
    So it beggars belief on the other hand how the Government continues to suppress the amount you can earn before it affects your pension - single pensioner about $65 pw., add that to$490 a week it means $28000 pa. The minimum wage is $40k plus as I understand.
    Why is the Government inflicting misery on pensioners? Why don't they increase the tax threshold to this figure and allow pensioners to live respectably.???
    BJ
    7th May 2018
    11:10am
    Well said mOGO
    BJ
    7th May 2018
    11:15am
    Well said Mogo51
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    11:18am
    And still have $50 billion to give to the wealthiest companies and individuals amongst us. Yes one has to question this. And what has now happened to "budget repair" Scott? Yeah right.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    11:30am
    Again - every aspect of government spending is a component in any 'pressure' on the budget/economy - Aged Pensions and DSP and such are simply targeted for ideological reasons by this party alignment - though I really don't expect any better from their 'opposition' in the Tag Team, who will say the same things and do the same things under a different name, while still doing the same things - wasting money on their pet 'issues' and spending overseas like sailors (money that will not return to this nation via any 'trade deals' or taxation cycle), and failing to control the flood of tax-free money being ship-loaded offshore, while ignoring the real issues for THIS nation, such as genuine solid infrastructure with a future plan and an Australia and Australians First policy in their dealings.

    I guess that makes me a National Socialist - pity the Germans had first shot at that title and stuffed it for all time.....
    Alexii
    7th May 2018
    11:33am
    It's simple, logo. Those in government don't give a stuff about ordinary Joe Bloggs and people on pensions are ordinary Joe Bloggs.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    11:55am
    Nah - Alexii - they are Joe Blogg's dog.... according to those upstairs... and don't forget the lower end of SFRs too.
    Grandpa41
    7th May 2018
    12:28pm
    There are very large number of aged pensioners and the Government is not worried about them.
    Should we vote the Liberal candidate?
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    1:29pm
    No - but I won't beholding my breath waiting for the opposition to change much, other than for their own special interest groups.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    2:31pm
    Better the devil you know.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    2:54pm
    Better no devil at all...
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    5:31pm
    Wishful thinking indeed.
    Ms Logik
    7th May 2018
    7:10pm
    Get some common sense back into the system! If a large group of people in society (i.e.pensioners, people on Newstart Allowance) is not happy how they are treated in society, how can we be a happy nation? In a good Government, everyone gets a fair chance! Bring back some old values!
    Or should we older disadvantaged people all get together in a march to Canberra and show them what people power is :)?!!!
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    8:09pm
    Don't march. Just don't vote for them no matter how convincing the lies are.
    Ms Logik
    7th May 2018
    8:42pm
    Hi Mick, I never voted for them! But that didn't help! There is a new party called Sustainable Australia who have good ideas about a balanced society, so does the Dick Smith Group (not a party) called Fair Go. We are still a minority.
    GeorgeM
    8th May 2018
    1:23pm
    mogo51, you are absolutely right. It was a con job by the Liberals when they massively changed the Assets test on the excuse of a Budget emergency, when they knew fully that the corporate taxes were receipts going to increase once the company deductions for losses from GFC era reduced. Labor also ignored this and refused to revert the Assets Test changes. At least this change should be reversed before they consider any tax cuts.
    No Company tax cuts either until they first implement a Minimum Tax system to ensure all pay fair taxes, and avoid future situations when large deductions are carried forward to avoid paying taxes in future.
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    4:21pm
    Yes, George, it is gross hypocrisy and disgusting greed to suggest any kind of tax cut or benefit for ANYONE before the unfair cuts claimed to be necessary because of a ''budget emergency'' are reversed. If there is not now an emergency, then make good to those who suffered unfairly before handing out goodies to others.
    Crazy Horse
    7th May 2018
    10:19am
    What happened to the "Debt and Deficit Disaster"? Under the Libs Govetnmrnt debt has blown out to many times what it was when they came to office yet they want to cut revenue by billions!

    Meanwhile pensioners and those stuck on NewStart struggle to survive on totally inadequate payments. Forget tax cuts I say and look after the disadvantaged.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    11:19am
    Yes. More than doubled the debt and cracking their necks to give away $50 of taxpayer money to the wealthy.
    GeorgeM
    8th May 2018
    1:25pm
    It was a lie! Agree, forget tax cuts, first fix the Age Pension - implement Universal Pension based only on Residency (15 years) and Age (65). The proposed tax cut changes are a con as well.
    MICK
    8th May 2018
    1:36pm
    Agreed....and I meant $50 billion, not $50.
    Marian
    7th May 2018
    10:50am
    The system is destroy the life pensioners from very long time & is on the way to destroy generations Australian Citizence
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    11:20am
    The long game is to turn Australians workers into slave labour and send all wealth to the top 1%. Happening in America and is being set up here. That is what happened when the rich own a political party and the media.
    Alexii
    7th May 2018
    11:34am
    You are correct, Mick.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    12:26pm
    Mick, Alexii is obviously a comrade. You two could be very happy together in downtown Beijing. Away from all this filthy capitalism - tell you what, I will lend you the money to go!
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    12:58pm
    Our school system already turns people into factory workers so Australian workers are already slaves when they leave school. Send then to uni and have them incur a big debt and they are well and truly slaves to the system.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    1:31pm
    Cheesus - all we have is slurs..... not one word in there to even suggest any association of thought with any extreme socialist state....
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:10pm
    Notice how all OG can ever do is rant about how everything is okay or can't be improved, EXCEPT by handing out to the rich, and he can present no data or rational argument whatsoever to back up his wild claims that handing out to the rich will help the nation in any way. The ONLY comment he has ever made that wasn't ''it's all fine'' or ''there's no better alternative''. except on the subject of company tax cuts.

    It would be really refreshing to read some CONSTRUCTIVE DATA-BASED LOGICAL ARGUMENT. But intelligence is rare in today's society.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    6:28pm
    Big Al - right wing stoolie. Perhaps get a job at the Murdoch propaganda sheet. You'll feel at home there spouting your 'leftie' BS.
    Perhaps some time you could debate the FACTS. You know, those things which you seek to hide because they do not suit.
    Old Geezer
    8th May 2018
    11:30am
    Big AL if they disagree here they will insult you so give them back as much as they dish out. Remember an insult means you are right.
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    4:18pm
    Dream on, OG! You are very seldom right, and you, along with Big Al, started the insults because you were WRONG and couldn't present a logical argument, let alone data, to support your INCORRECT POSITION.
    MICK
    8th May 2018
    6:56pm
    OG - you win an argument with facts, not with unfair attacks. That is something the right wing parrots cannot understand and do not want. It is easier to cat call with BS than address facts which mostly speak for themselves. At the very least your OG profile is mostly respectful.
    rover
    7th May 2018
    10:53am
    I will take issue with the wealthiest top 10% only, on the basis that only they pay tax amongst the cohort o0f pensioners. Those on a defined benefit scheme like the older military pensions and some CPS pensions are in this category. They do pay tax but are not necessarily in the top 10% category, many are recipients of small pensions and are on the Old Age Pension in full or in part. So there are a bunch of those who are worthwhile recipients who should also benefit.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    11:24am
    In many other countries the pension is paid to all. Should be the same in Australia but the game is to deny deny deny.
    If this government were really concerned about rich people getting a government pension then it should reform the tax system so that they and all others are REQUIRED to pay tax if they earn significant income, including retirees. The reality is that a growing number of our wealthiest citizens are allowed to avoid tax. Even the PM has an offshore (fake) tax shelter. This is not right.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    11:36am
    Once again - everyone is a taxpayer - every time a pensioner or unemployed person or a rich person buys a beer, they pay tax.... every time that bar owner buys a beer keg - he pays tax... and so on until the dollar approaches (but never quite reaches) zero (it's a mathematical impossibility for it to do that on percentages), by being returned to the government as taxation.

    NOBODY gets out of the tax cycle alive!

    The ONLY loss to the tax cycle is from offshored cash, via either (alleged) non-profit=non-tax (how does a company forever have a return in the red yet still pay dividends?) being offshored, or by spending by the same top 10% offshore rather than here - or by the 'investment' by that top 10% in 'dead stock' such as 'investment buildings' and such - that return no tax to this nation but incur losses instead.

    That is partly why Trump came up with the idea of a minimum tax on corporations, and similar moves... the other part was to try to equalise out direct taxation on incomes on both workers and corporations.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    11:48am
    If you think about it, low income earners pay a far higher percentage of their income in tax than high income earners, because apart from the fact that almost their entire income is absorbed in taxed expenditure, they now pay 15% tax on their superannuation income and inputs, even if their marginal tax rate Is $0, which means that while the rich get a tax concession on their super, the lower income earners often are actually penalized for investing for retirement. A sick system!
    Sundays
    7th May 2018
    12:33pm
    Yes Rover, there are approximately 180,000 commonwealth and military pensioners, plus thousand of retired public servants in each State (nurses, teachers, police officers, lower level clerks) who receive defined benefit pensions. You correctly point out that many receive part pensions and unlike those on an allocated pension still pay tax. These retirees will also benefit from tax cuts and are certainty not in the top 10% bracket
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    6:30pm
    I think you are missing the point Sundays. The middle class will get peanuts in tax cuts whilst the top will get large sums of taxpayer money which should be used to do real things in this country other than stumping up the lifestyles of the already wealthy.
    Sundays
    8th May 2018
    9:59am
    Not missing the point at all. I agree with you. However, I don’t like articles that aren’t factual. Rover correctly pointed out that it’s not just the wealthiest 10% who pay tax but also many pensioners.
    MICK
    8th May 2018
    1:35pm
    You are opening up other areas of discussion about whether self funded retirees should indeed pay any tax up to some level.
    Of those of us who pay tax you have to remember that it is the PERCENTAGE of your income going to the taxman which counts rather than paying vs not paying. This is the big issue I have with the top end of town. Some of these people earn over $10 million a year and consider paying 5% in tax is too much. 48% of $10 is $4.8 million. THAT SHOULD BE THE TAX PAID on a big income. Not as though the measly $5.2 they get is too little!
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    11:16am
    It should come as no surprise that tax cuts for companies are being timed to come in as write offs disappear.
    Retirees will not see any benefits from tax cuts if they come in. The top end will get significant handouts, the middle class will get pennies in the pound and the bottom end will get nil. The way this is being sold is that 'everybody wins'. The reality is the rich win and the rest of the country will pay for it with reduced services and ever increasing taxes, FOR THEM.
    Voters need to see an election budget for what it is: conning the suckers to vote for exactly the wrong political party. Expect the Murdoch media to be plugging hard once we are in the last 3 months and the rest of the right wing owned media to fall in line.
    I find the whole idea of tax cuts for those who have absolutely no need other than to finance a new Lamborghini or the like quite offensive. This is no way to run a country and the constant calls by a couple of posters on this website needs to be seen for what it is: government stooges making a living - cash for comment!
    Kathleen
    7th May 2018
    11:27am
    Agreed, Mick! It is a budget heralding an election in the not too distant future. The lower end of town needs the pay rise and considerations because they spend it all and it flows upwards and outwards. The middle to low is where the focus needs to be for a fairer distribution of Australia’s wealth.
    Alexii
    7th May 2018
    11:38am
    It's perfectly sensible from the government point of view because the rich and powerful are their friends and relatives - why should they do anything to benefit the majority at the expense of them. The lower income people are the future (or perhaps present) economic slaves who support the rich.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    11:40am
    A very Howardian move - when there is a boom in resources - give with both hands in huge tax cuts - then when the boom fails - you're stuck with it. Now it's "the write-offs are disappearing and revenue will benefit - so let's give tax cuts out of that increased revenue, and thus retain the status quo of some 'budget emergency'......................... (DUH!!!

    I believe the term is 'economically illiterate' - but there is more than a ton or two of short-term non-thinking for personal and political advantage involved.

    Can't be an election year, can it?

    Increase the pension... increase unemployment benefits ...tax cuts all round.....good to know that those Budget Emergencies don't last very long....
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    1:36pm
    You know Mick, the Berlin Wall crumbled in 1989. Your idea of Utopia disappeared along with it - it was all a charade, a con! Marxism doesn't work - how terrible for an old class warrior like you! Our system, in this country, while not perfect, is a helluva lot better than what you would have us all constrained in. At least you have the prospect of attending a polling booth to express your displeasure at the policies of the incumbent government. You also have mediums such as this forum to express your disappointment and support for one or other ideology. If we were to venture into the world that you would inflict upon us Mick, that just simply would not be the case! Count your blessings (you can count, cant you?).
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    1:47pm
    Nonsense, Big Al - Mick is no communist...Marxist of whatever... just a truthsayer about political game-playing to get or remain elected.

    Your insistence on labeling anyone who disagrees with city Hall as some kind of rabid communist is boring and out of touch... and it's called trolling.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    6:38pm
    Sorry Big Al but I have NEVER proposed "communism". but I have never accepted a perverse form of capitalism where the rich make rules for themselves and transfer wealth from bottom to top. If this is your idea of society then go live in America. You'll deserve what you get.

    Your list of put-downs misses the point. I personally am not a destitute citizen and like so many others on this website utilise the system I live in. My issue is that the system should not be a cartel for the wealthy and the rich should not be able to avoid paying their designated taxes by clever accounting or crooked schemes, or squirrelling their money into offshore tax havens to avoid tax altogether. That sort of thinking might be communism to you but it is fairness and decency to me, qualities you clearly lack.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    12:07pm
    From OG and Big Al's comments here I can see they are also "friends" of the Rich and Powerful, just like this government.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    11:54am
    What a miserable lot of old whingers we have here! The workers of this country deserve a break where as those on welfare just want, want and want more for doing nothing.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    11:58am
    Those 'old whingers' ARE the workers of this country who built it to its current standard so their 'political masters' and their mates can destroy it for their children and grand-children.

    No wonder they're up in arms...... and no wonder Howard stole the arms under false pretences.... cunning little rat knew what was coming ...
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    12:00pm
    Rubbish if they are now on welfare then they didn't work hard enough.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    12:06pm
    Another post from a government plant.
    Please address the facts OG rather than smearing those who tell it like it is.
    Absolutely nothing to with 'whinging'. Everything to do with class warfare.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    12:11pm
    So Mick you too are whinging as there is nothing in the budget for you either.

    So I wont tell you about the government giving savers a tax break and letting them have $1000 interest tax free or that franking credits are going to be reduced from 30% to 27%.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    12:12pm
    Your arguments have been hit so many times they look right now like the Bismarck.... give it up, Ebergeezer.... your bitterness and politics of envy are showing....
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    12:15pm
    I just say it how it is. Funny I have nothing to be bitter or envious about but can't say the same for most here.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    12:16pm
    What's wrong with franking credits being reduced from 30% to 27%? Franking credits are merely tax paid in advance, same as PAYG tax, and are taken into account at year's end... so if a company only pays 27% instead of 30% - there is no difference. You won't actually get any more or less... since you will be receiving more in your dividends first.... by 3%.....

    The only reason for any reduction in that tax 'withheld' on behalf of the shareholder would be to 'assist' the company's short-term financial situation by adding that 3% to the operating funds - won't affect the shareholder in any way unless the company goes bust and the board etc take it on the toe with the bags of loot...

    Get with it....
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    12:17pm
    Steal from aged pensioners when debt is the priority, but don't restore those losses when things improve. Just buy votes instead. What can you expect from a stinking government focused on destroying the social structure and loading the coffers of gold hoarded in tax havens?
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    12:17pm
    You're.... ahhhh .. you're not hiding something about your 'dividends' are you, Ebergeezer? Anything you want to tell us?
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    12:22pm
    Trebour you will get 3% less not the same. If you get paid $100 now you get $42.85 in franking credits. If franking is reduced to 27% you get paid a dividend of $100 and get $36.98 in franking credits.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    12:23pm
    No, OG, you have nothing to be bitter or envious about because you are a rich and privileged egotist who has no capacity for empathy or compassion and no appreciation of life in the real world. The appropriate term is ''narcissist''. And like most narcissists, you look down on anyone who hasn't been as fortunate as you and lie to yourself, pretending your good fortune was solely a result of your own cleverness and hard work.

    A man I know is just like you. He called his child's friend's father a ''loser'' because the latter - having a mortgage and three children to support - lost everything he owned when his wife succumbed to cancer. The narcissist had inherited a cool $1.2 million when his own wife died, but in his warped mind that was somehow evidence of his wonderful capabilities, and the poor fellow who was left with nothing was entirely to blame for his misfortune. I can just see you making exactly the same judgments.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    12:24pm
    OGR more of us might just have to use those tax havens if Labor gets into power.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    12:28pm
    Trebor, I don't see how you can assume that reducing franking credits to 27% makes no difference to shareholders. That MIGHT be true, but it depends on how company tax and franking credit changes are structured. If there is an actual reduction in the net return to shareholders, that will be just another crippling blow to struggling self-funded retirees who just seem to be continually the target of major cuts. We know Shorten intended to deprive SFRs of up to 30% of their income. It's not unusual for the two parties to collude such that one releases a hideously cruel policy to pave the way for the other to release one that is not quite so bad - but still unfair and harmful. But of course they fall back on ''it's only affecting x% of the population''. Apparently it doesn't matter if they plunge people unfairly into poverty, as long as it's a minority group that suffer. And vast numbers who aren't affected applaud this approach - cheering when they see others hurt. What a sick world we live in!
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    12:30pm
    Matters not who is in power, OG. The poor will suffer, the middle class will pay way too much, unfairly, and the rich will party and look down their noses at the rest of us. Both Labor and LNP have the same objectives - to restore a feudal society in which there are nobles and slaves.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    12:41pm
    Simple OGR just don't be a slave.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    1:35pm
    But OG - since it is tax paid on behalf of the shareholder, and comprises part of their gross income - there is zero difference - you get a little more in your initial dividend payment........... unless the shareholder is hiding something here and is copping a sweetener outside the rules any difference in franking credit can make no difference....

    Methinks this is sounding like certain shareholders are falling into a trap of their own making here..... oops....
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    1:42pm
    "it depends on how company tax and franking credit changes are structured."

    You'd have to take that up with the company, Rainey - it is their decision if they choose to accept the bonus of 3% less lodgement of dividend franking credits, and not reflect that lesser amount paid to the ATO (in advance) in the dividend payout itself.

    As it is -the company pays an estimate of 30% of dividend and then determines the final dividend - if they pay 27% instead, they will have that 3% as operating funds until tax time - and they still determine what the dividend payout will be, so it's up to them to either cheat on it or be honest to their shareholders and offset that 3% in the dividend payout at year's end.



    (word for today - offsweat - working damned hard to get an offset)...
    I suppose that's the risks you take with a poker machine.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    1:51pm
    Just reading through that link I posted:-

    https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/10/turns-australias-company-tax-rate-isnt-high/

    " We have a unique — OK, New Zealand has it too — system of corporate tax that drastically lowers the amount of tax Australian investors pay.

    It’s known as dividend imputation and it effectively lowers the company tax rate for local investors to almost zero…

    For that reason, the benefits of any cut to the Australian corporate tax rate overwhelmingly will flow through to foreigners.

    For Australians, it has almost no effect because cutting the company tax rate reduces the amount of franking credits they receive…"

    "lowers the amount of tax Australian investors pay" - so that's what OG is hiding - been telling me furphies about how it's all viewed as part of gross income, and then evaluated according to the full income tax scales.

    You may well be right, Rainey - it may cost Australian investors some ready...... though I still say that depends on the (gasps) integrity of the company and board etc.... and whether or not they are willing to continue the dividend payout to cover any reduction.

    In a way, shareholding is placing your income strand in the hands of others, much like living in a caravan park or retirement village, and that is fraught with dangers. It's a hard call unless you are one of the top dogs with the hands on the cash bags ready to bolt at a moment's notice.
    Adrianus
    7th May 2018
    1:56pm
    "For that reason, the benefits of any cut to the Australian corporate tax rate overwhelmingly will flow through to foreigners."
    I read that the other day and I still cannot see evidence of his conclusion?
    Why will the tax cuts flow to foreigners? The imputation system applies to Australian tax residents.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    2:05pm
    I can't see how it would flow more to foreigners than to locals.... perhaps he is confusing volume of ownership of shares with return per share.... I dunno.... not very clear there.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    3:02pm
    Trebor shareholders will only get a little more in the dividend if the company is feeling generous but if it pays same amount shareholders lose 3%. If company tax falls then shareholders will get more than 3% extra.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    4:37pm
    That's what I said, OG - it's in the hands of the companies, and there is no reason that shareholders will get more if the company tax rate falls. They might or they might not - at the discretion of their overseers....... you getting there yet?
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    5:31pm
    I've got it but I don't think you have yet.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    6:37pm
    Think I'll sit around with a whiskey and soda and wait for the squeals of :-

    "I've been robbed - I didn't get my usual allotment of franking cash because of the tax rate drop not being passed on to shareholders".
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    6:42pm
    OG - you crack me up. Do you really believe that shareholders will get the lion's share of any tax savings a company makes. Alan Joyce earned, to use a word, $20 million last year. What do you think will happen if a company saves a lot of money in tax? Read my lips.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:41pm
    Did he pay tax on $20m or did it go to Alan Joyce Inc and vanish without trace into a labrynth?
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    7:44pm
    Good to hear that Alan Joyce has earnt $20 million and not just got a handout like most people today want.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    8:14pm
    Earned? Kidding OG. Joyce is a member of the cartel of company directors and CEOs which award themselves obscene pay.
    How do you think company meeting work? Because institutional investors (other companies) own most of the script in a company they almost always rubber stamp a huge pay increase because they know sooner or later they too will get one. This is how the perverse system works. Mates looking after mates where small shareholders do not get to make a call because they own too little of the company capital.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    12:11pm
    Get out of your Ivory Tower, or is that a Penthouse OG?, and mix with some of the people you are denigrating here and you just might learn a thing or too about how some other people live and show a bit of compassion and humanity.
    Anonymous
    9th May 2018
    4:05pm
    Never happen, Misty. OG is not human, and has no interest in anything except boasting about his riches, applauding other greedy rich, applauding gifts to the rich, and denigrating those of us who are human.
    Joy Anne
    7th May 2018
    12:25pm
    These so called tax cuts sre only for the rich not for everyday retirees and pensioners. This is just to gain votes and is rigged as usual by this Liberals. I hope people realise that it is a strategy by Liberals to gain votes. They have destroyed this wonderful country by rigging the SSM and cutting health etc. Don't trust them
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    6:42pm
    Correct.
    Sundays
    7th May 2018
    12:41pm
    I’m sure that low to middle income wage earners will welcome tax cuts. The costs of living has risen, they haven’t had real wage rises for years. It’s a political sweetener, and many will be sucked in.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    12:45pm
    If you vote you have been sucked in so they only way is not to vote.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    6:45pm
    It is exactly that Sundays. This government knows it is on the nose and the only way to get back in is to lie as though you are on steroids and give a few (pretend) handouts which amount to almost nothing and will be gouged back after the election.
    Don't trust this government.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    7:45pm
    MIck I don't trust anyone in politics o I don't vote.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    8:16pm
    Nor do I but I will vote against crooked cartels like the one currently in power. I do not agree with a handful of rich people owning the government of any country.
    GeorgeM
    8th May 2018
    1:28pm
    Sucked in by a sandwich & milkshake tax cut? Yes, possible, as we have too many uninformed and brainless voters!

    All must vote AGAINST Liberal & Labor (and Greens) by putting them LAST in preferences wherever currently they hold seats.
    Adrianus
    7th May 2018
    1:52pm
    I hope the above comments aren't indicative of the wider population. What I'm seeing is a lot of angst directed at high income earners and businesses which include the sole trader. Very disappointing to see so many dragged into this class discrimination nonsense.
    We need to realise that a reduced corporate tax rate doesn't take money away from welfare recipients, the money is still there but its in circulation, being used to strengthen and increase economic activity. With a stronger economy welfare becomes more affordable.
    Did the earth stop spinning when we dropped the corporate rate from 49% to 30% ?
    Did Japan do the right thing by dropping their rate from 52% to 30% ?
    With the USA dropping their corporate rate from 35% to 21% we are in danger of falling behind.
    Sure there are a few moving parts in the economic modelling but lets look at the alternative communist view? We increase taxes while all other countries are reducing them?
    Now what do you think would happen??
    This is a government which got our budget into the black! Have a little faith?
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    4:39pm
    More thandoulbe debt when they started -yep - that's in the black for sure....

    Set to spend $50Bn having ships built in France - yep - that's in the black for sure.

    Set to spend $50Bn to prop up thriving businesses that don't need it and who often don't pay tax - yep - that's in the black for sure.

    **face palms**
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:32pm
    Adrianus, there is no angst against high income earners or businesses. The issue is simply that the LNP has admitted that no benefit will flow. Other countries have cut taxes and the richest 5% have gained handsomely with ZERO improvement in GDP and ZERO benefit to the other 95%. In the UK, company executives and directors laughed at journalists, declaring that they flew to Europe to buy $100,000 watches and luxury cars, and mocking anyone who thought the benefit would actually ''trickle down''.

    The USA's corporate rate at 21% is MUCH HIGHER than ours would be at 20%.

    And our government has NOT got the country in the black. What it has done is persecute workers and savers while driving debt higher than it's ever been before, and now it wants to buy votes with bad policies that it said weren't affordable. Suddenly, we can afford to give money away to the rich, but we can't afford basic services and decent lifestyles for the poor. That's NOT good for the nation. Goodness, we have retirees who are worse off with $1 million in savings than aged pensioners because of IDIOTIC ILLOGICAL POLICIES that were justified by claiming WE CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY PENSIONS TO THESE PEOPLE. Yet we can afford to hand tax cuts to the ultra-rich who are avoiding tax at every opportunity.

    Yes, some other countries are reducing tax. Japan can afford to, because it's an honour to pay tax in Japan and very few even try to avoid. UK admits to causing disaster by its cuts. US has created havoc and massively increased poverty with cuts. We ARE falling behind, because we are NOT COLLECTING enough to cover outlays. If we increase taxes, the nation won't collapse, but the debt might.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    6:48pm
    You are describing a RACE TO THE BOTTOM. This is being run by wealthy people worldwide and they love it. if we keep going the rich will pay zero tax...exactly what they believe they deserve.
    What you avoid is thought about WHO is going to make up what we keep handing to the top end. Pretty clear.
    Adrianus
    8th May 2018
    10:08am
    race to the bottom? That's a another slogan without merit unless you repeat it ad nauseam like a mantra. Coupled with greed and envy it will become a self fulfilling prophecy.
    MICK
    8th May 2018
    1:30pm
    Those who seek to get their own way always debunk the facts and often name call and throw mud as well.
    Greed is what it is - all me and bugger anyone else.
    Envy - a bad human trait unfortunately.
    Race to the bottom - what else do you call the leapfrog lowering of COMPANY tax rates all over the world? Been going on for a few decades now. Quite sick and this wages ordinary citizens against the mega rich who need slaves to run their businesses.

    We have to agree to disagree. I'll stick with the facts and follow the form.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    12:27pm
    This is a Pie in the Sky budget, how can anyone know how things will be like in 1 year let alone 3,4 6 etc, and to think that they will get their Billions from illegal tobacco is a joke when last year they only got something like $19 Million.
    Adrianus you cannot compare our Company tax with other countries they are structured differently and anyway they do not seem to have improved wages or jobs in the other countries have they.
    libsareliars
    7th May 2018
    1:57pm
    "Put simply, the tax cuts will benefit only the wealthiest 10 per cent of retirees and have no benefit for the other 90 per cent."
    What else is new with the LNP government. They only ever look after the big end of town.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    2:34pm
    If that's the case 90% of retirees are very badly invested.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    3:21pm
    In the current Robber Baron climate of 'business' here - it is highly likely that all investors are badly invested.
    rover
    7th May 2018
    4:55pm
    Well you say only the wealthiest 10% will benefit. Under your thinking an OAPer on a part pension is in that wealthiest 10% cohort. I wish as that is me.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:23pm
    Now OG is claiming that 90% of retirees have sufficient assets that if they were well invested they would be in the top 10% and benefiting from tax cuts. What an IDIOTIC COMMENT! Honestly, what planet does this fool live on?
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    6:18pm
    Like every individual being a successful business owner etc - the vacancies are low in number, and not everyone can be up there with the gods. If they were, there'd be no functioning of the economy. If everyone had a business - the competition would bankrupt them all - and there would be nobody to employ.

    So it is impossible for 90% top be at the top in a successful national economy.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    12:31pm
    Idon't know OGR but wherever it was I wish he would go back there or find out what it is really like to live on this one.

    7th May 2018
    2:06pm
    Tax cuts will benefit the economy.
    So this helps everyone - current taxpayers and current and future retirees
    SFR's who have income outside super also benefit
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    2:38pm
    Of course they do and anyone who thinks differently has no idea of how money works at all.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    3:25pm
    How will tax cuts help the economy any more than, say, raising pensions and unemployment will or giving companies handouts will?

    It's all a simple matter of putting money into the economy - and determining from which demographic it will most flow back directly into THIS economy... so why is there any difference?

    It's not as if any corporation is going to buy local machinery or whatever.... and why employ more people when your production is where you want it now... and why lower company tax to attract business, when they are lining up at the door already for their 'Australian Premium Price', and will not move HO here no matter how much you lower the tax, since it is not worth the money to move from a safe tax haven?
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:16pm
    Once again, no data from OG. No logic. Just insults of anyone who doesn't agree. A sign of EXTREME IGNORANCE and generally proof that the party dishing out insults is CATEGORICALLY WRONG.

    OG, you clearly have no idea how the human psyche works, and that's the issue - not how money works at all. It's the greed and selfishness that ensures company tax cuts won't help the economy, and it's greed and selfishness that resulted in no benefit elsewhere when company tax rates were cut.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    5:28pm
    Simple OGR if middle to low income earners have more money most will just spend it. Very few are like you and save it.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:35pm
    Trebor your waffle is tiresome
    Money will flow back into the Australian economy because its Australian based companies and Aussie taxpayers who get more in their pockets to spend.
    Why do you care whether corporations buy local or foreign machinery - they will buy what makes sense for their business to GENERATE MORE PROFIT and employ more australians
    Corporations use extra funds in one of two ways - return to shareholders and/or invest in new business opportunities

    OGR - - you keep beating your silly drum about tax cuts not impacting economy - you are dead wrong.PERIOD
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:39pm
    OG, I said NOTHING about low to middle income earners. I was discussing company tax cuts. LEARN TO READ.

    And Raphael, you are showing your gross ignorance and proving yourself wrong. Like OG, you have no data. I am quoting FACT - PROVEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES AND VERIFIED AS LIKELY IN AUSTRALIA BY THE VERY GREEDY FOOLS WHO WANT THE CUTS. They admit to the truth. Obviously, you and OG are too bigoted and arrogant to listen. Of course, people who expect to benefit will always support something - no matter how wrong.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    6:25pm
    simple question OGR - what have you done in the past every time you got a tax cut or a pay rise that puts more disposable income in your pocket ?
    Duh !!!
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    6:25pm
    Dear Rafe - waffle on all you like - exactly how is this money going to flow back into Australia, other than in your dreams. what makes you think that Australian based companies are the only ones to benefit, and why would you imagine that they would spend money here?

    what matters about buying machinery is that it is either a dead loss to this economy by being purchased offshore - or it actually creates jobs here by being a local product.

    Why would any company employ more people because it is making more profit? How does an extra return to shareholders benefit the national economy ? What new business opportunities are they investing in?

    I know how difficult it is for you to keep up and how easy to simply rattle off the neo-con line of 'trickle-down' - but I've posted links already today that clearly show the near lack of any investment in real infrastructure and jobs for this nation.

    Clearly you are dreaming.... and some big pie fairy in the sky is going to shower riches on shareholders and board members and such, and they will fling dollars in the streets and do something more than invest in 'business opportunities' such as banks and such which produce nothing or spend it on lovely overseas jaunts or big boats and such, or leave it fallow in investment property that pays no tax bu instead incurs a tax deduction.

    Tell 'im 'e's dreamin'....
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    6:56pm
    You crack me up rich man Raphael.
    So tax cuts will benefit everyone you say?
    Who will benefit by the billions going to offshore investors? Not Australians.
    Who will benefit from large sums of money going into the bank accounts of our rich? Not ordinary Australians as this money will end up in new Lamborghinis, overseas holiday homes and prime real estate bought from average citizens.
    The only people who gain from tax cuts are the rich BECAUSE THE RICH DO NOT RECYCLE MONEY INTO THE ECONOMY. THEY BANK IT!

    Your post is the routine rich man's post. Have another watercress sandwich.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    6:59pm
    Raphael, clearly, like OG, you CAN'T READ. I was commenting on COMPANY tax cuts, not personal. But since you asked, any increase in my disposable income increased my savings or reduced existing debt. I spend what I need to spend. My income has NEVER dictated my spending. Which is probably why if I retired tomorrow I'd be self-funded, despite a lifetime of enormous challenges and mostly VERY low earnings - living in abject poverty for the first 3+ decades of my life.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    7:02pm
    Go on, Raph. Call me a liar again. If my answers don't suit your agenda, that's what you resort to. SCUM!
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    7:56pm
    OGR yo have already broken that record and it's awful scratchy now. Time to get a better one.
    Rae
    8th May 2018
    8:42am
    OGR if all Australians were as prudent as you we wouldn't be in this mess at all. Unfortunately over 60% will just spend the lot and even borrow more because they feel richer and although the very real unfairness of overseas investors getting rich at our expense does exist it's because of spendthrift behaviours.

    Tax cuts to companies will benefit Australia if it produces more exports or replacement imports and it's as simple as that right now.

    Now if Whilam had bought the mines and gas fields for us it would be a different situation completely but most of us were too young to really have much of a say at the time and our votes didn't count for much. There was a missed investment if ever there was one.

    Every government since appears to be working for foreigners. So we have ended up here very close to a full blown debt crisis.
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    4:57pm
    Rae, as I pointed out below, the problem of attracting investment is NOT related to corporate tax. We already have very low corporate tax rates by world standards. The problem we have here is mostly market size, but also relative wage rates and access to manufacturing materials and supportive technology. Our employment laws are also problematical. Sadly, corporate tax cuts are NOT going to solve anything.

    I know inventors and technology gurus who desperately want to stay in Australia, but they simply cannot. They can get R&D grants and tax breaks that make the tax environment here brilliantly favourable, but that doesn't solve the problems of material import costs, assembly costs, access to talent, and the really big one - market size!
    Rodent
    7th May 2018
    2:34pm
    Talking about Company Tax Cuts , this is interesting re what Apple has just done is US Huge $

    REFER LINK https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/05/03/appl-m03.html
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    2:58pm
    That's a lottery very few if any here are in so they will just whinge instead of saying it is a good idea.
    Rae
    8th May 2018
    8:51am
    Will help Australian super funds as the ASX isn't doing so well just now.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    12:44pm
    OG you have got to be joking, the top 20% pay 80% tax, what did Kerry Packer say about that, anyone paying more then something like 50cents tax had rocks in their head, or something to that effect.
    Even if they did initially pay that tax I am sure by the time their accountants had finished their tax returns they would have paid little or no tax.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    12:46pm
    This reply was to a comment OG made below.

    7th May 2018
    2:46pm
    Wow, the natives are restless today. The question put to the forum is "The question YourLifeChoices is asking is whether these suggested cuts will be of any real benefit to retirees – or to the wider population?" In answer to the simple question, I am in the 90% of retirees so it won't bother me in the slightest.

    As to the wider population, they will get an increase in the pay packet which the employer won't be funding. The increase can be spent, saved or salary sacrificed by the receiver depending on how they live their life. More money spent will increase the GST income and businesses should make higher profits which means more tax revenue. I can't see a downside in the short term.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    2:53pm
    I agree but I will get a few crumbs as I fall in the other 10%. It will boost the economy and the next step in the economic cycle is higher wages so may also boost them too.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    3:31pm
    You are, of course, discussing personal income tax levels for Australian residents (and tax residents as someone said above), and not company/corporation taxes, OM?

    If so, that fits with what I posted above... that money placed into THIS economy to its people will drive the economy... giving it to offshore corporations is dead money. On that issue - as I said above, it matters not to whom the cash falls.. be it pensioners with a raise, the unemployed with a raise, or local small business and PAYG earners.. since that is the most likely set who will put it back into THIS economy, and not send it offshore or sink it into deadstock such as idle housing or share investment in non-productive service areas etc.

    "Ever since the company tax cuts were first proposed by the Turnbull Government, MB has argued instead for reforms that encourage capital to be deployed into productive investments, as well as diverting the tens-of-billions of dollars that would be spent on cutting company taxes to undertake critical infrastructure investment and restore Australia’s dilapidated infrastructure stock."

    Sort of echoes what I've been saying for a while now.. about investment in solid infrastructure with a future benefit to the nation.

    https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/10/turns-australias-company-tax-rate-isnt-high/

    Am I indeed a National Socialist, then? (sighs)... pity those German NAZIs had first crack at it.... and wiped out my great-great-grandparent's families from Hamburg in doing so....
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    3:33pm
    Boosting wages will only cause a further rise in costs of living to compensate, OG - you must understand that cycle by now... then that rise in cost of living will fuel further rises in incomes.... and so it goes on and on unless one or the other of the factors is stopped in its tracks.

    'circles within circles' .... tax cycle... cost of living v incomes cycle...

    Air force flying day - big jets making noises here...
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    6:58pm
    $5 a week in the pay packet OG. Insulting. Are you aware that bracket creep has taken $50 from workers in the past 10 years....and the bastards want to give the top ANOTHER tax cut? Strike me lucky, am I dreamin'?
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    7:51pm
    Why not Mick? The top 20% income earners pay 80% of the tax so they deserve a break.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    8:23pm
    Provide what PERCENTAGE of income goes as tax for the top 20%. You hide the facts when you talk about tax paid because the top has enormous incomes.
    This topic was well discussed in a The Guardian article last year. I guess you did not want to read it lest it put your spiel into the BS basket.
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    4:52pm
    OG, that is a very popular LIE, but nonetheless a blatant LIE. The top 20% pay far less tax, as a percentage of their income, than the bottom 20%. And they have WHOPPING incomes, so NO THEY DO NOT DESERVE A BREAK. They deserve a swift kick in the behind and a demand that they stump up fairly and develop a social conscience. For the most part, they are SCUM. If they were paying fairly, we would not have a debt and deficit problem.
    Dave R
    7th May 2018
    3:38pm
    The Coalition has no idea how to manage the economy so have given up and this is purely an election budget designed to get them re-elected.
    We already have one of the lowest company tax rates in the world because of all the deductions and concessions we allow. This results in most companies paying income tax at around 10% and some paying none at all.
    So only those few companies which pay anything like the full rate of company tax will benefit from a cut to the rate.
    No company will set up here because of this cut.
    Dave R.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:12pm
    A close friend specializes in helping US companies relocate to Australia and all of his clients find our CURRENT tax system and rates VERY VERY ATTRACTIVE. They are asking why on earth we would even consider cutting our very low rate, especially when the nation has a deficit and debt and needs revenue.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    5:16pm
    OGR our company tax rate is one of the highest in the world. Why would any company pay tax here at 30% when they can pay 10% in Ireland and Singapore? Most pay tax in Singapore now and that's why it is booming.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:20pm
    WRONG OG. WRONG WRONG WRONG. You obviously have no idea about how tax works. Our rate is actually among the lowest in the world, because it is INCLUSIVE of all kinds of levies and charges that others pay on top of their tax. You really should stop believing garbage and learn a little about world economics. As I said, I just spent time with an accountant who helps companies relocate to Australian. You think he doesn't know the rates EVERYWHERE? Most of his clients have considered other countries. Many actually have branches elsewhere. One of his leading clients has just opened in Australia AND in Ireland, Singapore and Japan.

    Unlike you, I know the facts first hand. I discussed the ACTUAL TAX PAID in each jurisdiction with him and his clients. And Australia won out every time.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    5:27pm
    Right right right OGR our company tax rate is 30% so we can't compete with 10% in other countries. What ever taxable income companies have here they pay tax at 30% if they shift it off shore it is only 10%. Whatever deductions etc they get here they also get off shore when they shift their tax liability off shore. I know how it is done,

    What you say makes no sense as if what you say is true why aren't companies paying tax here? The facts speak for themselves.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:35pm
    Why aren't companies paying tax here? Because our stupid system lets them avoid it. The US doesn't! They can't dodge their obligations there.

    And 30% IS lower than 10%+++++ levies and charges in other countries. They DO NOT pay 10% by shifting offshore, except by declaring profits here - on which they dodge tax - but being compelled by more rigorous and logical systems to declare truthfully what they make in other nations. The facts do not support one word of your garbage, OG. You are totally misinformed, and you know NOTHING.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:35pm
    Why aren't companies paying tax here? Because our stupid system lets them avoid it. The US doesn't! They can't dodge their obligations there.

    And 30% IS lower than 10%+++++ levies and charges in other countries. They DO NOT pay 10% by shifting offshore, except by declaring profits here - on which they dodge tax - but being compelled by more rigorous and logical systems to declare truthfully what they make in other nations. The facts do not support one word of your garbage, OG. You are totally misinformed, and you know NOTHING.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:37pm
    OGR - stop making stuff up. American companies asking your "friend" why we want to reduce taxes. Hahahahaha .
    Youre a legend at making stuff up, but this one takes the cake
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    5:40pm
    And you are a legend at rudeness and insulting ASSUMPTIONS that make you a PRIZE ASS, Raphael. That conversation DID happen. All you do with your baseless accusations is evidence your own ignorance.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    6:27pm
    Sure Rainey sure.
    nudge nudge , wink wink
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    6:28pm
    I get it, OG - you and Rafe and Big Al and the rest have no idea of the deep difference between mandated tax rate and effective tax rate, do you?

    Either that or you simply do not want to know, since it sinks your entire premise.

    Let's hear it from the monkey gallery next - where's heemie?
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    6:35pm
    Oh, I think they know, Trebor. It's been explained too often for them not to. It's just that they are selfish and self-serving. They speak solely in their own greedy self-interest, which is why they can't present facts or logic and why they get rude and insulting in response to the presentation of facts.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:04pm
    Let's try again for the slow ones here in class - heemie - here's your big chance:-

    "But the Australian Tax Office’s tax transparency report shows the BCA’s members paid an effective tax rate of just 24.3% as a group in 2014-15 – the most recent year for which data is available.

    The effective tax rate is the amount of tax paid as a percentage of taxable income each BCA member reported to the tax office.

    The report shows less than a quarter of the BCA’s members paid the statutory tax rate of 30% in 2014-15. It shows 50 members paid no corporate tax, while 11 paid no tax on their taxable income."

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/04/company-tax-big-business-already-pays-less-than-30-rate-ato-data-shows

    From the Tax Man's Mouth - for the endless complainers -it says latest data available. I suppose I could keep throwing up links for the great unwashed here - but they obviously never read them, but prefer personal attack as their chosen means of discussion - just like the school kids they are in reality.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    7:04pm
    Good information OGR.
    Some posters on this website are not legit so don't take them personally as likely being paid to post.
    You are on the money about rich tax evaders including the PM and his offshore tax shelter. The fraudulent use of offshore tax shelters is well understood but the bastards have absolutely no intention of putting an end to tax evasion from the top end of town. Our trolls know that and their posts are just smear and BS for the club.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:19pm
    BCA has a membership of 153 (I read in that article) - less than 37 paid the full 30% - 50 paid no tax - that leaves a third somewhere in between to make up that final figure of 24.3%. I'd like to see the workings on this piece by piece, and see who's who in this charade.

    So even if the Guv gave a tax cut of 5% - most of them wouldn't receive any benefit since they don't pay 25% anyway... is that how it works?

    Sadly - it sounds like 1/4 of BCA's members are good citizens and pay their taxes... and a reduction of 1.5% will only really benefit that 1/4...... well - maybe they should be rewarded for integrity - and a penalty of tax rise imposed on the less than good citizens among them.

    Reward good behaviour and punish bad.... hmmmm.....
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    8:25pm
    And the big overseas owned mining companies? I do not agree with exporting billions of dollars to the USA when we apparently have on again off again "Budget Repair"..........as the lie goes.
    Adrianus
    8th May 2018
    9:00am
    Rainey, your stories don't make sense??
    I've come to the conclusion that your socialist ideology has corrupted your logic.

    "Atlassian founder Scott Farquhar said he would not stay in Australia if he was starting a tech company today.
    In a JJC Bradfield Institute lecture last night in Sydney, Farquhar urged Australian policymakers to encourage startups to stay by revamping tax and immigration laws, increasing access to capital, and requiring ICT education in primary schools.
    “If we were starting Atlassian today, I think that [co-founder Mike Cannon-Brookes] and I wouldn’t have stayed here,” Farquhar said. “We would have gone straight to the US.”

    “In other words, I think the problem’s gotten worse, not better.”
    Australia should stop blaming its small population for a tech startup scene that lags other nations, he said. He pointed out that the country with the second largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies is Israel."
    Rainey what sort of business is your fictitious friend involved in?
    MICK
    8th May 2018
    9:53am
    You might be correct Adrianus but the issue might be more than you discuss.
    Young programmers are heading to the US because they get paid better. Startups here are not subsidised (they should be) but there is plenty of money apparently available for tax cuts to the wealthy and building rail links for the coal industry.
    When a startup does get going American predators come and buy anything worth owning up and it then delivers (future) profits for American citizens, not Australians. Exactly the same deal for junior mining companies which discover large deposits. Been there done that.

    The problem in Australia is GOVERNMENTS which are owned/controlled by vested interests to service their desires, not the nation's. Until er boot out all corrupt governments working for vested interests I cannot see anything changing.
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    4:47pm
    Adrianus, my friend is NOT fictitious, and any company that went to the US would NOT be doing so for tax benefit, because US corporate taxes are WAY HIGHER than ours. However, I agree that tech companies and innovators are likely to go to the US or Israel in preference to starting in Australia, and that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with tax. In fact, tech companies and innovators are likely to get major breaks here through our R&D programs. The reason they go to Israel and the US is because of access to talent and tech resources and the labour laws. Our unfair dismissal laws have done hideous harm, reducing substantially the appeal of Australia as a place to do business. In the US, you can sack employees who don't perform. Not here! Tax cuts won't fix that! Also, as Mick points out, young programmers migrate for higher salaries and better overall living standards. There is so much more opportunity abroad. Why would they stay here and work for an innovator when they can play off fifty innovators to choose the most favourable work and terms in another country?

    There are other issues as well. Intellectual property protection is a big one. The cost of securing and enforcing a patent in Australia is far higher and the whole process is far more difficult than in the US or Israel, and you are far more likely to be ripped off by an IP thief if you set up here - actually, an IP theft is very likely to be carried out by a US or Israeli company!

    I know an inventor who, despite being very patriotic, is moving to the US to commercialize his invention. The reason is simply access to manufacturing services at the right price, and market size. He has to have parts made in China because of cost, and he can import parts to the US at half the price he can import them to Australia. That's nothing to do with corporate tax rates. That's import duty and GST! He can also get assembly work done in the US for a fraction of what it costs here, because while salaries for professionals are higher there, wages for the minimally skilled are much lower.

    Also, our small market can't support innovators who need to build revenue to attract investment capital. We just don't have the population. An innovator needs to demonstrate market acceptance to be able to grow, and that requires access to a substantial domestic market. It's too costly to set up here, service a small base, and then establish a branch abroad to access a larger base.

    Company tax cuts won't change ANY of the critical factors that are making the US and Israel (and Singapore and other nations) so appealing.
    MICK
    8th May 2018
    7:07pm
    OGR - as of 2 years ago companies setting up shop in New York state were offered TAX FREE status for, I seem to recall, 5 or 8 years. Tax free is tax free. After that they could relocate. Sounds like a good deal if you are making money.
    Anonymous
    9th May 2018
    10:17am
    Yes Mick, sounds like a good deal, until you count up all the other levies and charges. For a start, the US has both Federal and State Tax. Companies setting up in New York were only offered no state tax - still had to pay Federal. Then there are municipal taxes as well that they had to pay. And payroll tax. And a host of other weird levies and charges, some of which are quite mind-bogglingly complex. This is why people can't see that our tax rates are low. We don't have all those levels.

    I looked at what my friend was doing tallying tax obligations for his clients and I was blown away by the complexity of it all. And then, on top of that, the way the US tax office handles audits was unbelievable for me. I wouldn't try to do business in the US if you paid me a million dollars, and that's despite the fact that there would be major benefits in terms of access to skills, low pay rates for low-skilled workers, better access to materials and knowledge, and a far bigger market.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    12:49pm
    Yes OG go and Google the differences in our Company Tax structure and how it compares to other countries.
    GrayComputing
    7th May 2018
    3:39pm
    Dear PM MPs and senators

    It is time for the government (and for all of us to rant at your MP a lot) to take action for human decency and a huge stress reduction for pensioners

    NO ASSET TEST FOR A PENSION EVERV AGAIN!
    A pension is not welfare.

    For the retired and retiring people in your electorate do you think they really look forward and want 100++ visits to/from Centrelink and be part of 3 million waiting queues and lost calls?

    Most economist say we will save taxpayers money by dropping asset testing because of the massive overheads cost in running Centrelink and the 10,000 conflicting rules
    Even poorer New Zealand has a NO ASSET pension so it is cheaper and user friendly,

    As an MP do you really like being part of the system that allows this indirect abuse of the elderly?

    This abuse is actually sponsored by our government and forced down to Centrelink and borders on a criminal act.

    Why do MPs normally compassionate persons let this Centrelink abuse happen at taxpayers’ expense?

    As a MP you even stand to lose your chance at being part of the government unless all these criminal asset tests for a pension are dropped now.

    NO ASSET TEST FOR A PENSION EVER AGAIN!

    Any "super rich web robot or paid supporter" who says they hate this scheme please get of this site and let real pensioners make accurate comments
    Rae
    8th May 2018
    8:54am
    Have you though how you'll stop people from loading up on boats, holiday homes, expensive cars, mobile homes etc and then claiming a pension.

    The prudent investor who buys income producing assets gets slammed once again I suppose.
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    4:01pm
    Rae, if the income test were combined with deeming of ALL assets, including the family home, but everyone was allowed a fair threshold of non-returning assets to allow for a modest home, furniture, car. etc., we could eliminate the appeal of very expensive homes, cars, mobile homes, boats, etc. and make the system fair, but end this nonsense idea of punishing people for saving and investing. The current system is grinding responsible retirees into hardship, and forcing premature spending to avoid major income loss - leaving them without reserves when they are needed later on. It's economically harmful. It drives far greater reliance on the taxpayer.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    12:52pm
    Oh dear Gray Computing you have opened up a can of worms with that statement, "A pension is not welfare", this is OG'S hobby horse.
    johnp
    12th May 2018
    7:44am
    Cos they can, the pollies are ripping off the system in so many ways and giving insult to self funded retirees. !! They subscribe to the meme, Do as we say not as we do ! We need someone to stand up and begin a revolution.

    7th May 2018
    6:27pm
    I wouldnt trust anyone with yellow teeth and crooked smile like Matt\s
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    12:53pm
    Don't get personal Raphael.

    7th May 2018
    6:35pm
    o.g.,o.m.,raphael, adrianus, why waste your time attempting to put some sense into the unwashed, just read the last contribution of a dave ramshackle "no company will set up here because of this cut" why does he/she not wonder why all those companies left this country in the first place during the labor years and don't start me about that dodo going under the name tremor(labor mick), the more comments the sillier he looks as he did in the past under his alias, labor mick, his only comment with any truth in it was to refer himself as being a national socialist, we all know what happened in the 1940-1945, and this mob want to set up a party to look after the pensioners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    6:40pm
    Speak of the devil........
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    6:42pm
    Well, your mob have already set up a party to load the untaxed offshore hoards of gold owned by the filthy rich and to grind the struggling into poverty. Hard to know which is worse, but I reckon a party that tries to look after pensioners would do a lot less harm.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    6:42pm
    Which companies left during Labor's terms here, heemie? Seems to me they are flooding here..... they are reaping it in with the Australian Premium price paid by people here..... haven't you heard of that?

    Then they offshore it to a zero tax haven such as The Caymans and claim they are in the red here, while giving out dividends regularly and paying bonuses to directors and such...
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    7:01pm
    I reckon we'd be better off if a lot of large companies DID leave, opening up opportunities for locals who have a social conscience and want to create work and prosperity for Australians. As I see it, the WORST thing that has happened to this country is globalisation.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:05pm
    Always knew you were a thinking man, Rainey... good thinking. All we need is a few good Australian entrepreneurs and an opportunity for them to garner finance for projects of lasting value.

    Totally agree about globalisation.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    7:07pm
    Here come de troll. Here come do troll. Here come de troll.
    Heemsjerk99.....cash/trash for comment. I feel sorry for you.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:13pm
    Are you really me, Mick? Sometimes I even doubt myself when heemie comes along and tells me I'm you....

    **ROFL emoticon inserted**
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    7:35pm
    This character is likely posting under several names and running the same BS every comment. Never a fact in sight. Only BS on BS, scaremongering and mudslinging. This government at work.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    7:48pm
    What Rainey no Apples or Samsungs! This country just wouldn't function.
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    2:35pm
    OG, we can do very nicely without Apple or Samsung, but I doubt they would leave. They make way too much money in the Australian market. But Packer and Murdoch killed a lot of good small-town newspaper businesses, killing off a huge amount of employment. There are vast numbers of retail giants, franchises and chains who have done nothing but soil the landscape for the local retailers who were giving first-class service to locals, employing locals, and contributing to society.

    I recall when I was a child, our local grocer said we would all regret seeing Coles open up. At the time, locals were cheering, thinking prices would fall. They did, until the local grocer was run out of business, then they sky-rocketed.

    But worse! We lost the grocer who delivered orders to the door - and often unpacked the goods into cupboards for the elderly. We lost the grocer who kept check on everyone and reported any need for assistance to a disabled, aged or sick person or a family struggling with sick children - ensuring someone called on them regularly and made sure they had clean clothes, healthy food, wood for heat, and their lawn wasn't overgrown. We lost the grocer who would ALWAYS manage a box of essential items free for families in need. We lost the grocer who broadcast news of a new baby or a sick child, resulting in neighbours flocking to offer a helping hand, and who made sure newcomers to town were welcomed warmly. We lost the grocer who let employers know which breadwinners were looking for work and breadwinners know which employers had vacancies. Instead, we saw a price war that killed local business and jobs and destroyed a healthy community.
    Old Geezer
    8th May 2018
    4:05pm
    Thank goodness the days of the sticky beats have gone. I used to hate others knowing everyone business.
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    4:30pm
    Because you are a selfish narcissistic scumbag, OG. The days of the local grocer calling on homes benefited society. Clearly, you have no idea what it is to be needy and alone, but those who have experienced that know only too well the value of community and caring neighbours. And those of us who have nothing to hide, and are proud of who we are, don't have any issue at all with neighbours knowing what we are up to. I love that my neighbours watch my house, bring my garbage bin in, empty my mailbox, etc. when I'm away. And I love that if I were ill, there would be plenty of caring folk offering a helping hand, transport, etc. When elderly loved-ones were alive, it was fabulous knowing neighbours called in regularly. The handyman who helped renovate a kitchen used to drop in for a cuppa every few days, and it was just fantastic that we could be sure he would report promptly if anything was wrong.

    On the other side of the country, a dear friend lay dying for three weeks, unable to move, until he starved to death, and then his dead body lay rotting for several weeks before he was found. Of course stinking rich folk wouldn't care, so they are supporting destroying society. Ultimately, stinking vile rich folk like you, OG, just want a world where the rich have it all and the only poor who allowed to survive are those fit enough to be slaves. A disgusting attitude!
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    4:48pm
    BTW. OG, you don't have to have anyone come near you if you that's your preference. But only the most disgustingly selfish would deny others the right to enjoy a healthy community and caring neighbours.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    12:55pm
    Anothe Blue Tie has joined the conversation, hee99.

    7th May 2018
    7:15pm
    tremor alias labor mick, labor mick alias tremor good try, still a time difference, still the same person!
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:21pm
    **ROFLMAO emoticon inserted**

    PROVE IT! Show me the links to our ISPs....... put it to YLC so they can do a check (they can, you know).... I once knew how to do that, but it was of passing interest so I let it go....
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    7:29pm
    Can’t blame Heemskerk

    Both of you are thick as 4 planks silly socialists who Want nothing more than to see this country’s great capitalist success being ripped off from under us

    Coalition policies have brought this country out of poverty. Everyone who wants to work has a job and lives a good life
    We have a good healthcare system and social services all paid for by economic activity generated from right of the Centre ideology
    Not leftist socialist agenda s that destroy wealth creation and jobs
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:31pm
    Any answer, heemie?
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:35pm
    Oooh, Rafe - you big schoolyard bully.. a least Adrianus is civil and OG has the occasional glimmer of light .. you should try it some time....

    I and everyone else know we've got you bested - all you've got is personal attack and no links, no information, no nothing...

    If all those evil 'leftie' ideas ruin 'wealth creation' , how come you didn't suffer under Labor? For that matter how come the mega-Communist Bob Menzies didn't ruin 'wealth creation' with the introduction of social security?

    Amazing when any reasoned middle of the road view is labeled extremist and communist - shows clearly the utter lack of perception and reasoning in the critic.

    On yer bike, lad... you can never win here with that kind of personal put-down - we're too smart for you.
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    7:38pm
    Like your comment TREBOR. I'd like to see YLC weed out the trolls posting under more than one name. Not too hard to work out.
    Perhaps identifying posters in the registration process might also be an option. I'll play. What about you heemsjerk?
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    1:31pm
    Don't know what country Raphael has been living in but it is not only the Coalition but other governments who have steered our country through troubled times, there has been good and bad in both sides but those with blinkers cannot see it they are so one sided.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:37pm
    Anyone know why heemie doesn't reply but posts a new post? Because if he replied his IP would be traceable through the blue link, and he's petrified that might happen and his real identity be found out.

    Cunning, yes?
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    7:40pm
    Really?
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:46pm
    It used to be, from my experience, possible to track an IP via such a thing - I've lot the knack through not using it, but I'm sure YLC moderators/staff have it available.

    I'm happy to undergo a check any time, since I have only one account.
    Old Geezer
    7th May 2018
    7:46pm
    Goodness me I have heard everything now.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:50pm
    https://www.iptrackeronline.com/

    Here's one.... you need to access those numbers for the user to trace it. As I said - I've forgotten how... but on another forum several users tracked all the trolls and found heaps of them from the one spot - sometimes a university with multiple computer outlets.... but sometimes the same computer.

    You could narrow it down to a very close area, and the trolls would always deny it... nah.. nah... that must be Jimmy up the road - not me....

    Anyway - my IP and yours are hundreds of miles apart - so heemie is a-pull-a da pud here..
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    7:51pm
    Brother - you ain't heard nothin' yet... William Shakespeare.....
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    8:07pm
    There would be several posters who would fail your test. Come on YLC let's do it.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    8:17pm
    Typical leftie idiots and their conspiracy theories
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    8:28pm
    So what problem do right wing morons have with being checked out other than they have something to hide? I'm clean but you are likely not.
    Anonymous
    7th May 2018
    8:34pm
    Everyone has a right to their privacy
    Perhaps you dont value yours, just like you dont value the rights of everyone to work hard and succeed.
    Typical communist way of thinking
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    9:32pm
    You retain your privacy under the rules of the forum - if the forum owners/moderators who set the rules deem that you might be behaving badly, they have the right to check out your credentials.

    Your old monkey heemie has accused me of being another poster here etc - I say put that up to the YLC people and let them seek the truth as is their right, same as they have the right to remove any insulting or abusive comments and/or ban the poster of those.

    them's the rules, sonny, and you signed up for them when you signed up here .... get over yourself.

    You got anything to add to the discussion Rafe - or just more of your screeching 'reds under the beds' conspiracy nonsense?
    MICK
    8th May 2018
    9:35am
    Privacy Raphael? Sounds like an out for a guilty person hiding behind privacy laws. Criminals love 'em.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    1:36pm
    You might have a while to wait for a reply from YLC Trebor, they told me they are only a small group and can not always be monitering these posts, well what else would they be doing I wonder or maybe YLC is an arm or just a small part of other business they run.

    7th May 2018
    8:13pm
    labor mick(tremor) and tremor(labor mick), good try, timing still out, still the same person, still the same idiot, still the same brainless and uneducated idle person you were when you went under the name mick and was found to be a labor stooge who stood for election and was soundly beaten
    MICK
    7th May 2018
    8:33pm
    Don't know why I bother with cash for comment Liberal Party posters. Probably because I enjoy seeing imbeciles throthing at the mouth.
    Oh yes...I'll show you my uni degree if you show me yours. Unlikely you finished primary school though.
    For the record the last 2 elections were not won. They were awarded. Thank Rupert for that. Next one you are out.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    8:36pm
    **sips cognac on front porch.. awaits a valid response from heemie .... Scrotum my good manservant - bring me another.. better still - bringthe bottle - this could be a long wait.... and bring a glass for yourself and a chair.. we'll need to make a session of this waiting for the Godot of a valid heemie reply**
    niemakawa
    7th May 2018
    8:45pm
    The current mindset with the vast majority of voters is to support either Liberal or Labour. Both are sides of the same coin. There is little if anything to differentiate between the two major politcial parties. Until voters stop this allegiance in their droves then absolutely nothing will change for the better in Australia. Both want your vote only at election time then they do the opposite of what they "promised" the electorate and of course folowed by the blame game. Be bold and courageous and look at the alternatives and do something to change the existing mindset that has become entrenched in our society.
    MICK
    8th May 2018
    7:12pm
    I have plugged the 'Independent' line for a few years now but of course one has to know who is a closet Liberal and who is not. Learnt that one with Nick Xenophon who turned out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. Family First was the same deal.
    I disagree with your comment about both sides being the same. Whilst the bastards are all self focussed business interests and the interests of the wealthy lie strictly with the Coalition.
    Vote Labor? You tell me. I haven't for decades but this time around I may have to get off the fence as the current crooked government has to go lest the country is totally wrecked and its citizens become the slaves which business demands.

    7th May 2018
    9:18pm
    tremor alias labor mick or labor mick alias tremor, good try, timing still out, clue, ONE, TWO, THREE, go, still the same person, still the same idiot, still the same uneducated labor stooge!!!!!!!
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    9:25pm
    ** sips cognac waiting for some new material from the resident troll **
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    9:25pm
    ** sips cognac waiting for some new material from the resident troll **
    MICK
    8th May 2018
    7:13pm
    Fruitcake methinks TREBOR.
    TREBOR
    7th May 2018
    10:39pm
    "The effective tax rate is the amount of tax paid as a percentage of taxable income".

    You all need to think about that - TAXABLE INCOME - not gross and not net-TAXABLE INCOME.

    So companies and corporations here don't even pay the 30% - let alone the same income tax rate on TAXABLE INCOME as the middle order PAYG earner.

    Am I missing something here?
    MICK
    8th May 2018
    9:37am
    And that is precisely where the top end of town beg to differ. They refuse to discuss the taxes they pay in this fashion because it shows how little many are paying.
    Tax shelter anyway? I believe Bermuda is a good one. Maybe Cayman Islands.
    Adrianus
    8th May 2018
    9:45am
    Is this the biggest piece of garbage I have ever seen peddled on a YLC forum?
    Possibly a C + P from another lefty economist who has sold his professional integrity to a flawed ideology?

    here it is

    " It’s known as dividend imputation and it effectively lowers the company tax rate for local investors to almost zero…

    For that reason, the benefits of any cut to the Australian corporate tax rate overwhelmingly will flow through to foreigners."

    Is there no-one who can explain this statement??
    Adrianus
    8th May 2018
    9:59am
    There are perhaps a few dozen foreign exempt listings on the ASX. Companies which use our ASX as a secondary listing. Hardly overwhelmingly on a flow chart?
    Old Geezer
    8th May 2018
    11:37am
    No one here will as they only whinge about how badly they are all doing collecting welfare.
    MICK
    8th May 2018
    1:24pm
    The above statement generalises the whole issue.
    Dividend imputation does not work for investors who are paying tax at the 48% rate, only taxpayers who are paying a lower rate.
    Retirees are not paying much tax if any so the tax paid by companies before they pay out the dividend is effectively refunded. That means a refund...which equates to a higher dividend.
    The top end should get NIL from dividend imputation but if they are managing to fake their real income with schemes then they too would get this refund. Some of the largest multinationals on the planet are doing exactly this with their tax havens. As I have repeatedly said our PM has a tax haven so I can only assume he might be in this fraudulent game as well.

    The fix is not to throw the baby out with the bath water. The fix is to make tax avoidance schemes ILLEGAL. This government will never do that because it is owned/controlled by wealthy interests.

    The above statement is correct in that the real money will indeed be realised by multinationals. Nearly all of these are American companies so we will see a large outflow of Australian money to foreigners. Budget repair anyone? Puts this lying lot into context.

    The system could be changed to only refund excess tax paid by companies to individuals and have the credit cut out at a predetermined level. In fact I'd offer a (starting) formula for doing this to prevent the fraudulent 'taxable income' as a basis by only allowing the deduction of expenses and the removal of all other mechanisms (like tax shelters) to reduce income. Don't hold your breath though as the top end do not easily let the gravy train go.
    Old Geezer
    8th May 2018
    1:59pm
    Mick tax avoidance is illegal.
    Adrianus
    8th May 2018
    2:20pm
    Anyone else want to have a go?

    MICK your long winded attempt doesn't even go close to explaining the authors logic. C'mon MICK you can do better than that surely??
    You do realise that your beloved Labor Party and its followers' credibility and reputation is on the line here??

    How does a corporate tax cut overwhelmingly flow to foreign investors??
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    2:22pm
    Mick, the current dividend imputation scheme is logical and fair from what I can see. The company pays tax. If the shareholder is not liable for tax, they receive a refund - as they should. Nobody should be taxed if they are below the tax threshold, no matter what the source. If the shareholder IS liable for tax, the franking credits are applied to reduce their tax obligation so that the income isn't taxed twice. Again, correct and fair. If the taxpayer's marginal tax rate is more than 30%, they get no refund, but pay additional tax to make up to their correct marginal rate. Again, correct and fair.

    The problem with foreign shareholders, as I understand it, is that they claim the 30% refund, but they also claim to have paid tax in their own country and the ATO credits them with the tax paid, so they are effectively-double-dipping. Instead of the franking credit forming an appropriate adjustment to ensure they pay the correct prescribed tax in Australia, it simply gives them a bonus. They pay NOTHING to the ATO, claiming to have paid tax in their own country instead, but they still get their 30% refund in cash.

    Solution is simple. DO NOT allow foreign shareholders to claim franking credits. Limit them to folk who, in the ordinary course of business, would be liable to account to the ATO for their income. That doesn't unfairly hurt SFRs or pensioners, and doesn't impact those who have other income and pay tax, but stops foreigners imposing unfairly on Australian taxpayers.
    Anonymous
    8th May 2018
    2:25pm
    Why are politicians, bureaucrats and advisers always so incapable of applying simple common sense? It's mind-boggling how STUPID they seem. Surely it can't be that they are dumb? It must, therefore, be that they are corrupt and making policy for personal gain and social engineering purposes.
    Old Geezer
    8th May 2018
    4:01pm
    OGR it is not Australia that allows foreigners to claim back tax paid in another country but the country in which they live. I claim back tax paid in another country here in Australia myself. I am then taxed on my income here in Australia. However if I don't pay enough tax here I can't claim the tax I have paid in another country back. How it works in other countries I don't know.
    Adrianus
    8th May 2018
    4:15pm
    Rainey, I agree the imputation system is fair. Shareholders may have differing tax status and therefore taxing dividends in the hands of the recipient is the only fair solution. A shareholder may be a superannuation fund? Why disadvantage that fund by making it pay 30% on certain investments while another super fund pays just 15% income tax?
    Foreign investors don't get franking credits, don't get franking credit refunds, they can be liable to pay withholding tax but that is capped at 15%. Australia has tax treaties with 40 countries and there may be differences between each?
    The only advantage I can see is the same advantage afforded to resident tax payers. The possibility of the corporation paying a slightly higher dividend but that still does not equate to an 'overwhelmingly' outflowing of funds to non residents.
    New Zealand has been enjoying a similar advantage to Canada in having an economically larger and higher taxing neighbour. Look for the Kiwis to undercut us before 2026.
    GeorgeM
    8th May 2018
    3:11pm
    There is something not clear / logical about Matt Grudnoff saying that the increase in revenue is "temporary" while also saying "the increase is because, in recent years, many companies made losses that they offset against their tax." I understand the losses were from the post-GFC situation - which in fact was the Temporary issue. Now, on a permanent basis, we should expect the "rivers of gold" as Chris Richardson described it, to continue - subject to there being no recession. If there is is any doubt, it is necessary to implement a Minimum Tax system without allowing Deductions - to ensure we don't have losses being claimed again excessively. We don't ever want companies / wealthy paying NIL or Negligible taxes.

    Once you have a Minimum Tax system assuring funding, we can also have Universal Age Pension for all Aged 65+ and Residence of say 15 years with no problem of funding now or in the future. We can also remove Centrelink from admin / abuse of Pensioners, and reduce Costs in a big way. Maybe Matt can pursue this line of thinking?
    Adrianus
    8th May 2018
    3:43pm
    George, that would be ok if it was Matt's job to solve problems. Unfortunately he and many others have the job of creating problems. The goal is to create angst within the electorate. Its called digging a hole. I don't know why he is persisting with this one because its a done deal. By 2026/27 FY all corporates will pay at the rate of 25%.
    johnp
    9th May 2018
    1:33pm
    Re the bit where it said
    "Put simply, the tax cuts will benefit only the wealthiest 10 per cent of retirees and have no benefit for the other 90 per cent."
    I can feel a change of govt coming on at the next election !!
    Adrianus
    9th May 2018
    4:31pm
    That would be those 10% of retirees with a company still trading and distributing Directors fees or share dividends? Not many people would lose from a cut in corporate tax. Come to think of it, not many people would want to take a risk on Shorten.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    1:39pm
    I don't know why governments make commitments for up to 10 years in the furure, we will have 3 elec tions in that time and all could be overturned.
    Adrianus
    9th May 2018
    4:23pm
    It started in 2011.
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    4:34pm
    So what?
    Misty
    9th May 2018
    5:53pm
    Does that mean every other treasurer has to do the same?.
    Adrianus
    10th May 2018
    7:41am
    just wondering if you made that same comment in 2011 :)
    Misty
    10th May 2018
    10:18am
    It wasn't a question then.
    Misty
    10th May 2018
    10:18am
    It wasn't a question then.
    *Loloften*
    12th May 2018
    4:16am
    Retirees/pensioners "don't pay tax?" Has he forgotten abt GST on almnost everything? Yes we can't claim any benefit from that tax paid but all are still taxpayers.
    Anonymous
    12th May 2018
    5:11pm
    And petrol tax and council rates (if a homeowner) and tax on insurance policies and stamp duty if we happen to upsize or downsize a home or buy a vehicle and alcohol tax and cigarette tax for some and gambling tax for others... and on and on an on it goes!
    Adrianus
    13th May 2018
    6:40am
    There's also the tax on water, road tolls, oxygen etc. I think the only thing not taxed these days is sunshine.
    One side of politics wants more taxes, the other less taxes.

    I think the economy becomes strong when people don't hand over less of their money to governments for pork barrelling.
    Anonymous
    13th May 2018
    10:59am
    The economy has grown at faster rates and society has been happier when income taxes were higher. I agree with keeping indirect taxes low, because they merely add to the cost of living and therefore drive a need for higher wages and higher pensions. Income taxes should be progressive and high for high income earners, but of course we also need a government that manages the economy responsibly, and sadly we have not had that for a very long time (if ever!)