12th Sep 2017

Aussies want power prices regulated, Government not listening

Govt out of step on energy prices
Ben Hocking

A new Guardian Essential poll shows a clear majority of Australians support increased regulation of energy prices and investment in renewable energy.

The poll of 1826 voters found 86 per cent support for the regulation of power prices and 81 per cent support for more investment in renewable energy and storage.

The survey presented nine ideas to reduce the cost of energy usage. The least popular options were building or subsidising new coal plants and allowing more onshore exploration of gas.

The increasing disaffection with coal-fired power runs counter to the Government’s recent actions in trying to keep coal-fired power stations from shutting down.



The Government has asked energy company AGL to extend the life of its coal-fired Liddell power plant by five years and is also considering a $1 billion loan for Adani to establish a new coal mine in Queensland.

The Government has also been loath to support moves to directly intervene in regulating energy prices, preferring to seek non-binding commitments from energy companies.

Electrical Trades Union national secretary Allen Hicks said the poll showed that the Federal Government was out of touch with the community on energy and that their non-binding approach to bringing down prices was likely to be ineffective.

“The business community has never done anything that was not in their interest because a government asked them nicely, and this is no exception,” Mr Hicks said.

Mr Hicks praised the Victorian Government for taking steps to re-regulate the industry and get prices back under control.

The move is a central recommendation of the government-commissioned review of the state’s retail electricity market that was recommended by a panel chaired by former deputy premier John Thwaites.

“In the retail space, regulation of prices is a significant step towards lower power bills, and the Victorian Government have realised that,” Mr Hicks said.

Mr Hicks said that the polling was a clear indicator that the Turnbull government was out of touch with the community on energy.

“Where people want meaningful, binding regulation on retailers, Mr Turnbull delivers lectures and showmanship.

“And people want to see their future secured by investments in renewables and storage, but Mr Turnbull is more interested in appeasing his backbench and protecting his job. His failure to show leadership will drive prices even higher.”

What do you think? Would you like to see energy prices re-regulated around Australia?

Related articles:
Power bill shock rocks Australia
How to cut your power bills
How to use less electricity





COMMENTS

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Hawkeye
13th Sep 2017
10:16am
So why did we need a survey to show this?
And how much did it cost us?
MICK
13th Sep 2017
10:17am
They should never have been deregulated. This was driven by greed from governments wanting more spending money and the wish not to have a burden of government around their worthless necks.
Whilst the blame game goes on there is one certainly: we have had over 5 years of the current federal government crowing coal but it has done nothing to find the right mix do that business can get on with the obvious. That is but one reason this lot need to go. The country can no longer afford the malicious BS which has only one solution for this crew.
jackie
13th Sep 2017
11:46am
MICK...I agree...I hope Australians never forget and forgive the LNP for their incompetence. Those Age of Entitlement morons are incapable of wiping their own backsides.
MICK
13th Sep 2017
12:48pm
Forgive and forget? That is what the big business propaganda machine peddles. The fact is we need a government rather than a bunch of puppets who can only do two things well: hand out money to the rich who have no need of it and borrow money from offshore to spend. If that makes any sense then I must be dreaming.
Hasbeen
13th Sep 2017
4:47pm
No wonder we have such dreadful government when so many people actually think Wind & Solar power are good, when they are actually the problem.

For gods sake people go read something other than a propaganda rag like the Guardian, & get some facts.
Retired Knowall
13th Sep 2017
6:12pm
Hasbeen, I have been Off Grid for over 9 months now with Solar Power that cost me $12K.
If anyone needs to read FACTS it's you.
MICK
13th Sep 2017
8:30pm
Kind of sad when you read the coal driven drivel you go on about Hasbeen. You really have no idea as you repeat the government propaganda as though it were fact.....which it is not.
Heard Barnaby Joyce on the 7:30 Report still claiming South Australian failure was due to renewables...when everybody knows that 2 electricity towers were blown over and it mattered not how the power was produced because it could not be delivered. And then the government cretin went on about Hazlewood closing down. Unbelievable! Hazlewood was a BROWN COAL environmental vandal which should have been closed down 30 years ago.

Please do us all a favour Hasbeen: talk fact not propaganda!!!!! Your coal master is gone. Banks refuse to finance them everywhere in the world because they know about STRANDED ASSETS which they will have to write off. Only coal conflicted governments finance new coal projects because they can steal taxpayer money to do it.
eggles01
15th Sep 2017
7:55pm
hey mick,i do not know much about the deregulation of electricity but i was under the impression that the states and territory governments had complete control of the electricity prices,i have done a quick google on the subject and according to what i read the federal government has no control of regulating or deregulating the price it is solely done and controlled by those state and territory government,i reckon there is enough people leaving comments that recognize you as being a total anti lnp mouth and all for the green/labor coalition party and anybody else that do not vote for labor,people seem to forget the past rudd the dud and juliar labor governments that put we Australians in a debt that will never be paid off so look at reality of how Australia would turn into a third world country under more labor governments especially with leaders like they have at the moment.
eggles01
15th Sep 2017
8:00pm
my apologies,I made an error in my comment,it should have read "that do not vote for the LNP"
ex PS
15th Sep 2017
8:29pm
Eggles01, if that is the case how come the leader of the Coaladdiction Party is trying to take credit for trying to regulate prices by keeping a redundant power station open? Why are they getting involved in state politics by claiming a state government has driven up costs by going green? As for the previous government putting us in debt, how come five years after putting the Coaladdiction Party in power, our debt is even higher?
Maybe we do need to turn into a third world country, most of them seem to have a better renewable policy than us and will leave us for dead in the future.
MON
13th Sep 2017
10:25am
Utility pricing is a state government responsibility yet our statre politicians turn their back and point to Canberra. Fed up with this ongoing battle between state and federal governments; either we want states to continue to govern within their boundaries or disband them altogether and have one central government supported by shire councils.
Rosret
13th Sep 2017
11:27am
Shire councils! Heaven forbid. The only reason they have a large desk at their front office is so we can't reach over and ........! Petty martinets - unbelievable decisions are made by councils.
LENYJAC
13th Sep 2017
10:30am
OF course they dont listen,,only if it is OF BENEFIT TO THEMSELVES....Stuff the rest of us..
Denny
13th Sep 2017
10:56am
I understood that a government is meant to take into account the needs of its citizens but it appears to me that this one is pandering to big business. As for selling off assets, I always thought this a bad step. Who to trust these days. It's hard to know who to vote for.
Rosret
13th Sep 2017
11:24am
So true Denny.
jackie
13th Sep 2017
11:47am
Denny...That is right.
Lark Force
13th Sep 2017
11:55am
Denny, Just who has benefited from Privatisation? and Forced population growth?
On another threat I posted this quote.
I think its appropriate here also.

“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of power to a point where it becomes stronger than their demographic State itself. That is in its essence Fascism -ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power.”
- Franklin D. Roosevelt
MICK
13th Sep 2017
12:49pm
This one owned/controlled by big business.
Ahjay
13th Sep 2017
11:06am
Political "donations" will carry the day.
I think they may have been called bribes in a bygone era.
Dee
13th Sep 2017
12:10pm
Exactly Ahjay!
MICK
13th Sep 2017
12:50pm
Which is a window into who really owns/controls right wing governments. It ain't the country!
Circum
13th Sep 2017
5:13pm
Bribes and Corruption knows no political boundaries.
Rosret
13th Sep 2017
11:22am
There is probably a well formed contract preventing it.
They could take off the GST and they could stop allowing the companies charging for just being connected to the grid.
TREBOR
13th Sep 2017
7:30pm
No doubt about it - there IS a serious contract that says if the government resumes the 'business' or it fails (read that twice and let it sink in), the 'investors' in these 'privatised ventures' will be repaid in full for their costs , regardless of any profits they have already made, and will be given a nice exit fee.

You saw that very thing in Victoria when the current Labor lot took over, and got rid of a major road project - they had to then fork out BILLIONS, and the LNP made huge capital out of it, even though they had signed the contract.

Privatisation is an absolute failure and is outright robbery of the people, it raises the costs of living and thus wage requirements and thus destroys any dream of 'competitiveness' of this nation with the poverty-stricken of the Earth (what a joke that is), and it MUST be stopped and turned back forthwith.

Will Labor commit to such a program? If they do and actually implement it - does anyone know how much it will cost to 'pay out' these corporate thieves?

I've said it before - NOBODY sells a 'business' and then guarantees the purchaser full repayment and compensation for future loss if it fails or is resumed for failure to provide service or whatever - unless you are an LNP government lining the pockets of your mates/cronies.

Historically, this is exactly what Castro did in Cuba - 'nationalised' their industries etc, including sugar... and thus incurred the hatred of the West.
Not Senile Yet!
13th Sep 2017
11:46am
Up 100% in 5yrs.....because Privatised without any regulatory control...is pandering to Record high prices for record high profit margins!
Couldnt care less about Anyone but themselves and their Americanisation of eveything throigh Privatisation without regulation!
And what were both parties promises before they Sold Off Public Assets?
If will makes prices cheaper through Competition!
Cheaper? Lying F@#$#@# Bu@#$@@#$#!!
We now pay the highest Electticity & Gas Prices in the World!
We sell our own Natural Gas to Overseas for less than Half of what we are charged!
Blame Game is just Propaganda of lies to distract from the Truth!
They faile to meet yet another Election Promise of Cheaper Gas & Electricity Prices for all.
Neither Party are Blameless...they are Self Serving Hypocrites and Liars!
Vote Independant and put the Parties Last!
Stick it right up the Corrupt Party Puppets who refuse to listen!
Lookfar
13th Sep 2017
2:54pm
To be fair, not senile yet, the labour party back bench has prevented the labour party in Qld selling the Power network, much to the chagrin of Ms Bligh, not sure of the other states although I think Victoria's power system was sold off by Jeff Kennett, Liberal.
With the de-regulation, the Power companies were semi Govt. instrumentalities, - still owned by the Govt, as they had to be because otherwise they would be subject to the Trade Practices Act, (secttions 40 to 45 it used to be) a fundamental part of Federation, so when they sold those Govt Corporations they only de-regulated the ownership, not the protection from the Trade Practices Act, which would have been true de-regulation, as that act protects against monopolies. - What they did was probably illegal, but traditionally it is only the Govt that can bring in lawsuits based on the Trade Practices Act, - as I understand it, - I could be wrong.
Anonymous
13th Sep 2017
3:03pm
Lookfar, there is no "labour" party in Australia: it's called Labor. The Labour party is in Britain.
TREBOR
13th Sep 2017
7:32pm
Always remember they took 'U' out of the name and the platform...
Charlie
13th Sep 2017
11:56am
Yes, regulate them better. The government should buy back the whole lot.
BrianP
13th Sep 2017
12:00pm
How weak our recent governments are is revealed by their constant squabbling over which party is to blame for the price and problems in the power supply industry.

We need leaders with a backbone to take the necessary steps to regulate and control electricity prices. Yoohoo! Wake up and DO something.
MICK
13th Sep 2017
12:52pm
NOt squabbling Brian. It's coal vs renewables. This is a game about maintaining the flow of large profits despite the nation becoming a Neanderthal country. Can't have the coal industry go broke can we even if the cost of renewables is now less than coal.
Captain
14th Sep 2017
11:53am
Mick, the idiots in all parties are squabbling over who to blame as none of them have the guts or backbones to actually do something that may benefit the consumer and interrupt the profit growth of the multinationals who were given our assets.

Renewables are the way to go, however it needs to be in conjunction with coal until we can be fully dependant on renewables.
TREBOR
15th Sep 2017
7:07pm
Meanwhile Captain, Captain Hooknose, successor to Blackbaird, is busily signing NSW up to more extended contracts for roads and such, and we're still waiting for those miraculous infrastructure advances to appear in a puff of smoke.....

Nobody would mind paying tolls on publicly owned roads, knowing that the money went back into roads and government - faulty and wasteful as it is at times - but when it is clearly going to enrich a few privateers and pirates, including some of those very government people - it is nothing but outright fraud and theft.

Nobody would mind paying higher power bills if the network really needed work etc - but when it is clear the cost rises are only there to fatten profiteers, pirates, and their shareholders, and not the state as a whole - again it is nothing but outright theft and fraud.
Boomah52
13th Sep 2017
12:25pm
Anti nuclear and now anti coal but able to sell the raw materials, not "clever" enough to develop it. The land of wasted opportunities... "she'll be right mate", this is Straylia.
outlander
13th Sep 2017
12:25pm
The only thing Mr Turnbull will stand up for is re-election! At what point does the government of the day stand up and say " this is our problem ".. stop blaming the previous government and take action in there own right.." The buck stops here fellas "
Bill Shorten trying to run the country from the other side of the table, and Mr Turnbull letting him..Agreed Brian very weak willed people
MICK
13th Sep 2017
12:54pm
Whilst Shorten does not impress me he will at least move this country forward whilst the only thing we can expect from Turnbull Inc. is being tied to coal until the ship sinks and he says 'we have to do something now'. This is what we have. A phoney government which is controlled by the coal industry....for itself. Climate change? Never heard of it.
sunnyOz
13th Sep 2017
12:31pm
It is not just the cost of power - it is the absurd and outrageous so-called service fees. Mine have increased 287% in just over 6 years. Hell I wish my wage could increase in a similar fashion! You can only scrimp and save so much, I have an elderly neighbor who is too scared to boil a jug more than twice a day. Doesn't have heating on - sits in blankets - and in summer, she uses a hand held fan! Great in Qld heat.
Electricity is getting to be a luxury, not a necessity, and politicians of ALL sides are not the slightest bit interested in doing anything to ease the burden. Only in it for themselves...
Raphael
13th Sep 2017
12:34pm
Just shows the average Aussie is not too bright
Can't have low prices and want only renewables
Of course their solution is to regulate prices
At what cost to the taxpayer ?
Stupid is as stupid does
MICK
13th Sep 2017
8:31pm
Read your own post Raphael. The go look in the mirror.
johnp
13th Sep 2017
12:50pm
Agree with most here and as I have said on other forums and from a practical no nonsense view. These days, the actual (must have) generation, control and distribution of electricity to the customers door is only a proportion of the cost to the consumer. A significant proportion goes on all the other costs from plush offices, CEOs. boards of directors, upper management, sales, marketing, call centres, admin, analysts, strategy consultants, I.T. etc etc. This happening multiple times by many and various bureaucratic office based organisations including such as about 100 retailers.
As an aside there is a cost to the household that is more onerous than electricity that doesnt get recognition - The Local Council Rates !!
TREBOR
13th Sep 2017
7:36pm
As a further aside - our water access fee was nearly three times our usage cost... figure that one out... plenty of fat retirement schemes in play for the local water 'authority' people there.

Same everywhere since this 'privatise' nonsense began - councils and such all got on the band wagon... easy money to do nothing and for doing nothing.
Rae
14th Sep 2017
8:54am
Those people living off grid with water tanks were correct.

There will be more and more do that as the greed ramps up.

The righties just never know when to stop trying to get blood out of that stone. They stuff it all up time after time through sheer stupidity and refusal to share even a little bit.

All those plush offices and small men playing at being rich are just bill collectors. Laughable if it wasn't costing us so much.
TREBOR
14th Sep 2017
10:06am
Indeed - I miss my water tanks down south on the farm.... makes beaut home brew...

I'm looking for a tank to put out the back of the house.
Not a Bludger
13th Sep 2017
12:52pm
This major problem is not the fault of the federal government (although they will have to fix it).

Rather, the fault lies entirely with state governments, all of whom have bans in place for development of conventional gas and oil, proven new gas technologies, low emission coal technology or usurious royaltys, planning requirements that take years and cost a fortune, often in combination.

The tormented public should be venting their anger directly and personally at state premiers who have deliberately brought about this parlous (and unique in the world) state of affairs.
Lookfar
13th Sep 2017
3:01pm
Not a bludger, if you read an article I posted earlier, it may provide depth to your argument.
"To be fair, not senile yet, the labour party back bench has prevented the labour party in Qld selling the Power network, much to the chagrin of Ms Bligh, not sure of the other states although I think Victoria's power system was sold off by Jeff Kennett, Liberal.
With the de-regulation, the Power companies were semi Govt. instrumentalities, - still owned by the Govt, as they had to be because otherwise they would be subject to the Trade Practices Act, (secttions 40 to 45 it used to be) a fundamental part of Federation, so when they sold those Govt Corporations they only de-regulated the ownership, not the protection from the Trade Practices Act, which would have been true de-regulation, as that act protects against monopolies. - What they did was probably illegal, but traditionally it is only the Govt that can bring in lawsuits based on the Trade Practices Act, - as I understand it, - I could be wrong."
TREBOR
13th Sep 2017
7:38pm
How did 'Ancient History' Bligh get into this? What's Paleass Chick doing right now?
Not a Bludger
13th Sep 2017
7:51pm
Most of these comments are incomprehensible and way off the mark.

Stick to the point.

This is the 21st century.

Yet what used to be an "essential service" now cannot power our air conditioners in summer and even if it could, we cannot afford it.

Call these state premiers along with their sundry fellow travellers to account for this travesty.
Rae
14th Sep 2017
8:59am
Yes but I bet Baird's office will be cool this Summer.
KSS
13th Sep 2017
12:56pm
Please explain why it is quite alright to sell 'clean' coal and gas to anyone who wants it who then use it to provide cheap power supplies to their citizens, but not OK to do exactly the same thing in Australia? Where are the ALP, Greens and Watermelons (greens on the outside, red on the inside) and their placards demonstrating on the wharfs preventing the exports? Where are all the shouty activists to point out the hypocrisy of propping up overseas coal fired plants whilst demanding closures here?

Even if you are the most ardent climate change believer, there has to be acknowledgement that Australia's contribution to the 'global catastrophe' is less than 1% of all emissions. The extent of the pain currently being inflicted on people here is out of all proportion to the gains in emissions saved. Australia can must slow down this relentless march to renewables until such time that people can afford to pay for it. We need to seriously look at nuclear power (hold the kneejerk reactions) or stop selling the uranium to countries that are. Or like gas and coal is it ok to put others 'in danger' of a nuclear plant failure as long as Australians aren't?

There needs to be a lot more investment on securing baseload and reliability of service before Australia is anywhere near ready to ditch coal and gas.
TREBOR
13th Sep 2017
7:40pm
Pig Coal Mal? Sent the coal to future enemies so they could turn it into steel to send back at our boys?

Unlike many nations that have nuclear, Australia is pretty firm on its feet... a nuclear facility in Christchurch etc would be a blast....
Sceptic
13th Sep 2017
12:58pm
Total insanity.

Subsidise renewable energy and make them mandatory,which makes fossil fuels uncommunicative, then realise that it is only fossil fuels that can supply reliable baseload electricity so it has to be subsidised to compete with the subsidised and intermittent wind and solar. at this stage battery storage storage does not have a high enough capacity to supply power when the sun and wind are unable to.

It also seems that the majority of respondents to the surveys and the respondents on this site have no idea about energy supply. I am shocked that anyone could think that increasing renewables would lower the cost to the consumers. Blatant lies are put out that renewable energy is cheaper than coal (even today the deputy leader of the opposition made that statement). If it is cheaper, why is it necessary to subsidise it???????
MICK
13th Sep 2017
1:24pm
The normal coalition advertisement for the coal industry Sceptic. Why am I not surprised?
The facts:

1. Coal is now officially more expensive than renewables. The industry conveniently leaves out the cost of building the facility which adds a huge amount to the cost per kWh of energy over the life of the generator. Here is the proof:

http://www.sharecafe.com.au/roger_m.asp?a=AV&ai=45597

2. The chestnut in this discussion is always base load and this is a total furphy. Yes we need base load but no it cannot be 100% coal as Australia will be stranded with white elephant generators in 10 years time which will have to be mothballed and written off. In case you have not heard storage is still being developed but, like solar panels, is becoming cheaper by the year.
What we need is a mix of energy: coal, gas and renewables. This is what the coal industry will do anything to stop.
It's never easy in a changeover period. Must have been the same in the horse and buggy era. How many horses have you seen in George Street lately? Thought so.
I am putting on more panels shortly. Contract signed. What I can't afford yet is the batteries. I factor in 2 years until that arrives at which time I will seriously consider going off the grid.

Your taunt about people on this website having no knowledge are pretty baseless. Many have some haven't. Of course the issue is difficult....but burning coal for another 60 years is not on. If you think it is please buy a house half a metre above the high tide mark.
Sal
13th Sep 2017
1:53pm
Mick, That link is not proof. We don't necessarily need to be build new plants. We need to keep the Coal generators going until renewables can handle the load which will only occur when the storage has the ability to supply everyone when there is no wind or sun. Otherwise we need to wait until the Snowy 2 scheme is up and running.
Also no one has said the base load supply needs to be 100% coal. Both gas and hydro also provide base load.
Lookfar
13th Sep 2017
4:39pm
An interesting article about the coal industry in America, - (the land of the falling/failing coal fired power stations) - this pair of generators are quite new/ - why do they want to close them down and replace with Wind and Solar ?
http://insights.globalspec.com/article/6371/xcel-asks-to-retire-660-mw-of-coal-capacity-in-colorado?id=%2D1980556404&uh=625a4b&email=wind%40iig%2Ecom%2Eau&md=170908&mh=1be84a&Vol=Vol12Issue18&Pub=65&LinkId=1884417&keyword=link%5F1884417&et_rid=420809775&et_mid=83529625&frmtrk=newsletter&cid=nl
Lookfar
13th Sep 2017
5:05pm
Actually, Sceptic, both Solar and Wind need no subsidies, they are cheaper all down the line.
Certainly there are subsidies in place, just as there are for the Coal industry, but they are just there because of lobby groups who do not understand what they are doing, - in fact the Renewable energy industry would be far better off without subsidies as it would allow more competition and new ideas to be explored, - when a company is sucking off the govt teat, and new ideas can't, it doesn't want changes.
TREBOR
13th Sep 2017
7:42pm
I've explained start-up costs times many - get over it... it is the privatised nature of power supply, including these 'alternatives', and the utter failure of those organisations to calculate a business plan that will cover those costs in the LONG term - rather than the current grab for short term profit at all costs.

'Smash and Grab'/'Ram Raid' business practices....
MICK
13th Sep 2017
8:36pm
Sal: the problem we face is that during the past 5 years the coalition has done zip other than talk about building coal fired generators for their coal bosses. Snowy mkII is viable and Bob Katter is already doing something brilliant like this in Queensland. The problem is we need it now....and that is why Abbott and Turnbull, both wrecking machines, are to blame because these projects need to be online NOW...not in 6 years time.
Don't kid yourself about base load. South Australia is having batteries installed and if these work then Turnbull will be swallowing his own vomit because his number one argument will be shown for the nonsense it is. Lets wait for that one.
floss
13th Sep 2017
1:15pm
What a mess it is really hurting business which in turn just can't compete and will be forced to lay off staff.If the problem is not solved soon it may cause a recession in Australia all the while our P.M has not got a clue on how to fix the problem they caused.
MICK
13th Sep 2017
1:26pm
If Abbott had left the Carbon Tax in place business would have been happy and we would have projects of varying sorts well under way by now. Unfortunately Abbott and Turnbull have sabotaged the industry because their coal masters have so directed them.
Rae
13th Sep 2017
1:37pm
They are dead set keen on giving Adani that billion dollars. Why?

I read a good comment today.
Labour is prevented from striking in essential services so maybe capital should be stopped from going on strike as well.

This would require regulation.
Lookfar
13th Sep 2017
5:25pm
Hi Rae, could you please explain your two differing statements? - are they connected?
MICK
13th Sep 2017
8:39pm
That sounds fair enough Rae but its a bit like the wealthy man who was let off jail tonight. Parked his car, stumbled out and collapsed. 0.34% (0.05 legal limit). Fancy lawyer so avoided jail. If it was somebody from the western suburbs he would done time.
Your comment Rae seems to be telling a similar story methinks.
Rae
14th Sep 2017
9:14am
No Look far. The billion to Adani I can't fathom unless a few hundred million will go to 'someone'.

The second comment was in Wednesdays AFR letters. The writer pointed out that workers have been legally prevented from striking in essential services and perhaps that should also apply to Capital refusing to keep up maintenance and upgrades in essential service providers owned by the private corporations.

It seems okay for workers incomes to be kept stagnant but not for business profits in these essentials.

I thought it a very good consideration.

And yes MICK it is about the injustice and the different rules for Labour and Capital.
Rae
14th Sep 2017
9:16am
Let's not forget Liddell has been badly maintained for decades and that Lake will cost billions to clean up when the thing is finally decommissioned. Bet we pay for that and not AGL.
floss
13th Sep 2017
2:25pm
Gas is a great stand by for the peak period as it is so versatile as a base load ,but guess what our Pollies have given it all away.Problem is where to find a P.M. or State Premier with the guts to return it to the people that own it, you and I.You are in power at this time Malcolm fix the bloody problem before we become a third world country.
TREBOR
13th Sep 2017
7:46pm
The aim is for us to become a third world country divided between the ruling elite and the New Serfs, the latter have little to no say and little to no much of anything.

Been going on since Hawke's 'government of national reconciliation' ** broke the power of unions to protect their members and their jobs and unbalanced the power structure between management and unions while opening the door to all kinds of 'business practices'...

** Read: 'wrecking a silly nation'....

13th Sep 2017
2:59pm
Typical LNP government not listening to the people, but bending over backwards to boost the profits of their mates in the dirty energy business. Kick these bums out!
Old Fella
13th Sep 2017
3:39pm
Utilities like Power and Water supplies should never leave Government control . However successive State and Federal Governments have consistently taken short term financial gains from Utilities at the cost of consistent and long term advantage of Australia's population. National Defence, Medical and Educational Services can also fail without power or water to sustain them yet few in the population would deny or oppose these Public Services/Utilities being anything BUT the sole responsibility of Government. Monopolistic profiteering and poor government are the cause of current Utility Problems nothing else.
TREBOR
13th Sep 2017
7:51pm
And where, oh, where, is the 'massive infrastructure' advances that were promised with all this lovely moolah handed to State governments - the same state governments that, since the introduction of the GST, have never had so many BILLIONS of dollars flow through their hands to utter waste - and then worked out a new wrinkle to get the people to pay and pay for their own utilities, such as roads, power, gas and so forth?

Where have all the billions gone,
Long time passing,
Where have all the billions gone,
Long time ago...
Where have all the billions gone,
Gone to cronies every one,
When will they ever learn?
When will they e-e-ver learn?
TREBOR
13th Sep 2017
7:55pm
Absolutely correct - essentially the provision of power etc is a monopoly with a captive audience - the spreading of it around a vastly larger number of overhead groups is no different from having a single group and then massively over-paying those in it......

What sort of public outcry would there be if all these hundreds of board member's salaries were paid to one utility paid CEO as a single package? What about all the payments to shareholders, board members and staff that would have gone back into the organisation?

Only a blind fool would fail to see the utter disaster that 'privatisation' is.
Old Man
13th Sep 2017
4:15pm
So, about 1570 readers of the Leftist Guardian want the rest of Australia to change the rules and that is trumpeted as "a clear majority"? Sadly, until renewable energy becomes reliable and a proper storage system is produced, their choice to put new coal fired power stations last is not a sensible option. I note that they want onshore gas exploration and that is something that should be welcomed by all parties. Gas fired power stations are cleaner than coal fired power stations.

Electricity has always been the province of the states and recent closure of power stations has been solely a state decision. There have been 7 power stations closed in recent years and none built thereby causing an additional load on those remaining. It's not only Liddell that is reaching the end of its economical life and unless existing power stations are overhauled or new ones built, Australia will have a huge problem.

Regulation of a private company is not the answer. Although electricity is considered to be an essential service, various governments have sold the power station off without putting regulations in place at the time. Should a government try to regulate the industry now there will most certainly be compensation to the owners. The only sensible solution is to buy back the power stations but as Baird gave Liddell to AGL for $0 I can't see that happening.
Wstaton
13th Sep 2017
6:44pm
Ha hem!

I thought the decision to close the two coal fired stations were made by the owners one the French company and the other AGL. So where was the state government in this.
Old Man
13th Sep 2017
7:48pm
Well Wstaton, Liddell is not included in the ones that have already been closed as it is still open and the French company bought Hazelwood with coal at an agreed price. When the agreement ran out, the state government increased the price by 300% making it unviable. You are technically correct but the state government has been boasting about their part in the closure.
Lookfar
13th Sep 2017
8:44pm
Old Man, those two coal fired stations are in America, which is a lot further down the spiral of divestment from coal, so we can learn somewhat.

Cheers,
Geoff.
Old Man
13th Sep 2017
9:16pm
Lookfar, WTF?
MICK
13th Sep 2017
10:51pm
Pretty well agree almost everything you said OM. Only exception is about renewables being unreliable.
As for storage that of course is the jewel in the crown which will finally kill off the coal predator. Even coal man Abbott will be laughed out of the room when that comes. All eyes are on South Australia now to see how this works out.
Gas? Yeah, I said that at a meeting of the candidates in 2010 and was laughed out of the room. Everybody there wanted renewables but I saw gas as a kleener change over measure. The change to renewable energy is not going to happen without a mix of coal, gas and renewables and anybody who says otherwise has a vested interest or just does not understand anything about the industry and the logic of changing horses.
I am putting on a solar system shortly but not having a battery does grate at me because that is where we all need to go. I'd give it 3 years maximum before batteries become cost effective. Then the coal mines go into mothballs. Game over. And of course Australia loses export income and we pay the price for having allowed politicians to make the country dependent on imports....which we can no longer pay for. The 'Lucky Country'.
TREBOR
14th Sep 2017
12:02am
Liddell's in the Hunter Valley - I've driven past it many times and could go there in about an hour and a half... Hazelwood - from memory only - is in Victoria or maybe South Australia.

Liddell's been there for as long as I can remember - and I'm 68. It still smells as bad today as it did the first time... and don't venture near the Latrine Valley in Victoria.... talk about sulphur content....
Rae
14th Sep 2017
9:30am
Lookfar Hazelwood was in Victoria. Not sure if they put that fire out down there but I doubt it.

Liddell is in the Hunter and the Lake is so contaminated that it isn't safe to go near it.

Neither company spent any money at all maintaining their assets. The money is always made in the deal with these LNP bankers and lawyers. After that it is usually unviable.

Same with this Adani deal. The cronies will take their cut at the deal and it is in the hundreds of millions of dollars on a billion dollar deal.

Panels and batteries work well in the right location.

I'm organising mine now. My dividend from Origin failed this year and I'm over it. Off grid and water tanks.

Prices will increase everywhere as energy costs hit balance sheets.

Australia is headed towards the outcomes Argentina is dealing with. That country had a great agricultural base and energy resources too until they were sold out by their governments just as we have been.
Rae
14th Sep 2017
9:33am
Keep away from that Lake TREBOR it's highly contaminated and very dangerous. Web search Lake Liddell.
Lookfar
13th Sep 2017
4:47pm
Why are they closing these two relatively new coal plants?
http://insights.globalspec.com/article/6371/xcel-asks-to-retire-660-mw-of-coal-capacity-in-colorado?id=%2D1980556404&uh=625a4b&email=wind%40iig%2Ecom%2Eau&md=170908&mh=1be84a&Vol=Vol12Issue18&Pub=65&LinkId=1884416&keyword=link%5F1884416&et_rid=420809775&et_mid=83529625&frmtrk=newsletter&cid=nl
Sal
13th Sep 2017
5:36pm
Lookfar, They will still use a 750MW Coal generator and will use gas fired generators with the solar and wind. They will also purchase supply from other utilities. Although they will be buying solar, wind and gas supply from other utilities these suppliers will probably be using coal or nuclear also. This electricity all comes through the same power lines. The US has enough base supply to cover the reduction but Australia doesn't and wont for a number of years. I'm all for renewables but not at the expense of a reliable supply. Until renewables can provide a reliable supply we need to continue to use coal or build gas fired generators.
Lookfar
13th Sep 2017
6:54pm
Yes Sal, they keep their most efficient generator, interestingly, not the ones that have already paid for themselves, a few commentors in this discussion could think about that..
They will put in their own Wind, Solar, and Gas, - if well run will almost never have to buy from another utility, particularly the ruinously expensive Nuclear, and they have their own coal fired dinosaur, no need to go elsewhere.
True, the power comes down the same lines, but it is all paid for due to it's source, after all AC electricity goes back and forward 50 times a second, it just all shakes, no individual electron leaves power station X and travels z distance to Y, they all sort of stay in the one place and move just a bit. - Admittedly the US grid is bigger, (although not longer) but really the principals are the same, and really they could disconnect from the whole grid if they had modern equipment, - and of course that is where SA is going, - lots of smaller integrated mini grids, - one goes down, the rest re-align and keep on going. - Possible now, just needs the old Engineers to let go of their pre-conceptions and stop saying "it can't be done" but rather "how can we do this". - or employ more flexible engineers..
As Wind and Solar are cheaper, the govt does not need to finance anything, their role, and it could be an important one, through research funding, should be to get all the other Renewable Energy sources up to speed and at the same lower cost.
This will narrow the gaps, so the old dinoaur gets used less and less.
It is sort of like a horse race, we have a new breed of horses, can win every race, so there is totally no point in keeping the old horses, - they will never win a race again, there is just no point.
motaleon
13th Sep 2017
4:50pm
Mick, you entirely miss the point. The Senate was originally constituted to oversee States' Rights, but there has been a shift of allegience by Senators from State to Party. In effect, we now have two lower houses. It is high time that we scrapped the Senate; it becomes more and more fragmented as time goes by. Whatever party holds sway in the Reps. is going to find it tough to get anything passed in the Senate. Shove the Senate down the gurgler.
Lookfar
13th Sep 2017
4:58pm
Good point, Motaleon, and we did it in Qld, but it just seems to have made the newspapers have more power so that they seriously influence elections and then a cuppla months down the track folk wake up but no house of review...

Possibly better a bad senate than no senate.
heemskerk99
13th Sep 2017
7:02pm
motaleon, what else do you expect of ylc's labour micky comments, read his remarks in these columns re:" renewables are now cheaper than coal", he forgets to state that here in victoria labor tripled the tax on coal this year and upped the subsidies for the renewables by 40% this is on top of the subsidies which were already paid to the renewables industry, as has happened in other labor run states, this resulted in the closing of one coal fired power station which supplied 25% of victoria's electricity and that same station helped south australia to keep their electricity going during the last summer, god help us this coming summer, we should never allow any coal fired power station to close till such a time as the renewable power industry can garantee us that they can supply us with the same capacity, 24 hours a day, of that we will lose by closing the coal fired ones
MICK
13th Sep 2017
10:58pm
You have to look at WHY the senate was set up. Sure it is a pain in the butt of incumbent governments but it is there to ensure that democracy is not easily sold out to vested interests. Having said that I look at the last 5 years of government by the coal industry and debt on steroids with no media expose of these serious issues and the loss of sovereignty.
Your wish motaleon are for a free run and this would advantage both sides of politics but have a think what the current lot would have done to average Australians had it had free reign. Frightening.

This energy crisis coming this summer is almost entirely of the coalition's doing. Howard let the world's 3rd largest gas deposit be sold to foreigners. Now we have no gas. Abbott and Turnbull are coal men and have done nothing in the past 5 years except cry 'coal'. So who ya gonna blame? Labor? Blame a government which has been in power for 5 years. That is where the blame lies.
TREBOR
13th Sep 2017
7:20pm
Been out of touch from the moment the whole deal was 'privatised' into the hands of a few mates, leading to the multiplication of overheads, plus the addition of countless ceo's, board members, and then shareholders to pay.

Should NEVER have happened, same as every other 'privatisation' venture by foolhardy and self-interested, mate-serving 'government' here.

We don't want it 're-regulated' - we want it RESUMED and placed under proper control
MICK
13th Sep 2017
11:01pm
It should be as industry is interested in money so it will bleed every last dollar out of consumers. That much should be clear. Oh yes....."you have high electricity prices because of the Carbon Tax" - Greg Hunt 2009/2010
Regulate again and nationalise OUR gas reserves if we are refused the use of our own gas. That's what coalition governments have brought us to.
Rae
14th Sep 2017
9:44am
And it was planned as far back at the Whitlam coup. He scared them by threatening to nationalise mining, gas and uranium.

What a wealthy country with universal services we could have been.

No Balance of Payment problem if Whitlam's vision had succeeded.
TREBOR
14th Sep 2017
10:12am
Ah, Rae, you add meat to my vague at this time plans for another book... all clues leading to subject areas in need of analysis welcomed... pity I'm not academically minded and feel the need to support every statement... oh, well...

Disclaimer:- due to carer duties etc, which appear endless and never improve, I haven't written a word in months..... this has to end.... before I do....
Dave V
13th Sep 2017
8:28pm
And what has a Gov subsidy for a train line in Qld got to do with an article on regulation of energy prices? That's the problem with so much journalism today. Too much biased reporting and trying to push ideological barrows.
Lookfar
13th Sep 2017
8:39pm
Hi Dave V, are you referring to the 1 billion dollars of taxpayers money being paid to Adani to build a railway line specifically for his company to extract cheap coal, and pay us bugger all, whilst destroying our planet?
Happy to hear if I have it wrong..
Dave V
13th Sep 2017
9:00pm
Yep, that's what I was referring to. I don't support paying Adani that amount - I just didn't know what it had to do with the topic the article was supposed to be about.
heemskerk99
13th Sep 2017
9:27pm
lookfar, may be it it will pay if you start looking after the interest of our country AUSTRALIA instead of stating such cheap and unproven accusations that coal is destroying our planet, come up with some reasonable facts not those of so called experts, give us your experiences of how much worse we are now-a-days compared to our parents, forefathers etc., looking forward to your, hopeful, explanation of your post to this column.
MICK
13th Sep 2017
11:02pm
Train line in Queensland? Adani project? Say no more. Corruption on steroids in high places.
Rae
14th Sep 2017
9:56am
I made the point because these deals are done to make money from the deal itself. The privatisation of the grids worked exactly this way. The buyers had no plan to supply for an ongoing business.

Until people wake up to the corruption nothing will be fixed in Australia. People still think the government planned for power delivery by private corporations. They didn't. They don't care.

It's about selling our assets built by taxpayers and making money from the deal.

Why do you think bankers like Baird arrive, do the deals and disappear again.

So the Adani link is just another deal done to allow taxpayer money to be hoovered up by corporations, banks and teams of lawyers, politicians and their buddies.

The train one may never be built at all. Already Adani has mumbled about changing the plan to a renewable site. It's about the deal.

It certainly isn't about the prosperity of Australia or Australians.
TREBOR
14th Sep 2017
4:30pm
They could always do trips to tour the world's biggest open cut mine, akin to Grand Canyon.. using the open top trucks behind a diesel for that real life experience .. fit a few seats and Bob's yer uncle... they could do work re-enactments in the newly renamed residential area there - Tax Dodge City..... don't forget the three o'clock bunfight between the manager and the union man....
TREBOR
14th Sep 2017
4:32pm
Damn - I forgot to include the guided tour of Booty Hill.... and the museum..

"Oh, look, daddy - there's a wax statue of a REAL miner!!"

"Yes, daughter - you don't see that kind these days - all robots. See - he's even got his 754 Visa - meaning no job if you're Australian - barcoded on his forearm... look closely."
micreen
13th Sep 2017
9:02pm
While NSW government is a major player/ receiver( They own 50% of grid ) in power pricing the price will never go down and boss of AGL receives $6.9 mill salary, the ordinary people of NSW have been well and truly shafted. All that BS about privitisation and competition driving down prices is a joke. Thanks to all the deadhead politicions.
heemskerk99
15th Sep 2017
5:14pm
lookfar, believing in agl statements is believing in PIGS CAN FLY and maybe you have seen PIGS FLYING, if you have please see a PSYCHO straight away there might still be some hope for you, now I have heard it all, agl looking after our pockets, most likely to see how much more they can steal from us before the lights go out!!!
heemskerk99
13th Sep 2017
9:29pm
waiting
MICK
13th Sep 2017
11:03pm
Only a jerk would say coal is doing no damage. Instead of posting coal propaganda post the facts. An inconvenient story that even the mentally challenged now understand. Oh yes.....say no more.
Lookfar
15th Sep 2017
4:35pm
Hi Heemskerk, it was me you wanted a reply from but I had already answered most of your comments earlier in the discussion, except the new claim that supporting Adani with Australian Taxpayer money which would destroy the reef, if not the planet, is better than what the reef already gives to the Australian taxpayer, many thousands of jobs, multiple millions of foreign exchange, happiness to millions.
Other than comebacks to a few politicians, royaties supposed to pay for the destruction of the land, (which will probably never be paid as all the profits to Adani will be in overseas bank accounts) what?
Maybe Coal has helped us in the past, but it is a mineral, can not mind that the world has changed and now it is harmful, it is not a substance one should associate the word ungrateful to, and indeed times are changing, - an article from Power generator AGL estimates that the cost of replacing Australia’s ageing power generation fleet in the coming decade will come at around $250 billion.

AGL, which has plans to exit fossil fuel generation by 2050, says that replacement RENEWABLE generation will cost $150 billion, with another $100 billion for storage and “firming,” which includes batteries and back up gas fired plants. (AND ALL THE BALNCING TECHNOLOGY TOTALLY MISSING FROM TODAY''S SYSTEM, - G)

In a presentation to investors, AGL chief financial officer Brett Redman said the pace of change would be driven by the cost and capacity of batteries.

“We think its pretty unambiguous,” Redman said to a previously unreported briefing for Macquarie Bank, in comments published by the Australian this week.

“Even if you don’t accept the scientific orthodoxy on climate change, it inreasingly appears that technological developments in renewables will outpace the efficience of thermal energy in coming years.”

The company has previously said that 75 percent of Australia’s power generation is past its used by date.

The reports come as AGL is embroiled in politicking with the Federal Government, with Prime Minister Malcolm Turbull putting pressure on the company to keep open the coal fired Liddell facility in the Hunter Valley, slated for closure in 2022.

Turnbull, once considered an advocate of renewable energy, is increasingly accused of pandering to the coal lobby and conservatives in his own party, who want to scrap any Renewable Energy Target, ignore the recommendations of the Finkel Review and institute a “Reliable” energy target with coal as a centrepiece.

Increasingy, renewable energy policy is being left to the states. This week the Queensland Government announced a shortlist of five for the Aldoga renewable energy project, which is expected to support 450 MW of capacity.

Expressions of interest have been called to transform a 1200 hectrae site near Gladstone into a renewable energy project.

Heems, I believe you have the intelligence to understand what is happening, - please don't let your old attitudes swamp your mind.
You can find that article on http://www.energybusinessnews.com.au/business/regulation-policy/250-billion-replacement-bill-power-agl/

Cheers,
Geoff.
Lookfar
15th Sep 2017
4:40pm
Hi Heemskerk, it was me you wanted a reply from but I had already answered most of your comments earlier in the discussion, except the new claim that supporting Adani with Australian Taxpayer money which would destroy the reef, if not the planet, is better than what the reef already gives to the Australian taxpayer, many thousands of jobs, multiple millions of foreign exchange, happiness to millions.
Other than comebacks to a few politicians, royaties supposed to pay for the destruction of the land, (which will probably never be paid as all the profits to Adani will be in overseas bank accounts) what?
Maybe Coal has helped us in the past, but it is a mineral, can not mind that the world has changed and now it is harmful, it is not a substance one should associate the word ungrateful to, and indeed times are changing, - an article from Power generator AGL estimates that the cost of replacing Australia’s ageing power generation fleet in the coming decade will come at around $250 billion.

AGL, which has plans to exit fossil fuel generation by 2050, says that replacement RENEWABLE generation will cost $150 billion, with another $100 billion for storage and “firming,” which includes batteries and back up gas fired plants. (AND ALL THE BALNCING TECHNOLOGY TOTALLY MISSING FROM TODAY''S SYSTEM, - G)

In a presentation to investors, AGL chief financial officer Brett Redman said the pace of change would be driven by the cost and capacity of batteries.

“We think its pretty unambiguous,” Redman said to a previously unreported briefing for Macquarie Bank, in comments published by the Australian this week.

“Even if you don’t accept the scientific orthodoxy on climate change, it inreasingly appears that technological developments in renewables will outpace the efficience of thermal energy in coming years.”

The company has previously said that 75 percent of Australia’s power generation is past its used by date.

The reports come as AGL is embroiled in politicking with the Federal Government, with Prime Minister Malcolm Turbull putting pressure on the company to keep open the coal fired Liddell facility in the Hunter Valley, slated for closure in 2022.

Turnbull, once considered an advocate of renewable energy, is increasingly accused of pandering to the coal lobby and conservatives in his own party, who want to scrap any Renewable Energy Target, ignore the recommendations of the Finkel Review and institute a “Reliable” energy target with coal as a centrepiece.

Increasingy, renewable energy policy is being left to the states. This week the Queensland Government announced a shortlist of five for the Aldoga renewable energy project, which is expected to support 450 MW of capacity.

Expressions of interest have been called to transform a 1200 hectrae site near Gladstone into a renewable energy project.

Heems, I believe you have the intelligence to understand what is happening, - please don't let your old attitudes swamp your mind.
You can find that article on http://www.energybusinessnews.com.au/business/regulation-policy/250-billion-replacement-bill-power-agl/

Cheers,
Geoff.
Bonny
14th Sep 2017
7:11am
Power prices started to go up the day the state government took over County Councils owned by the councils in a distribution area and demanded they make a profit so they could pay the state a dividend. I remember the day this happened.
Rainey
19th Sep 2017
9:00am
So do I Bonny. And it wasn't all bad. Until that day, electrical linesmen working in very dangerous and strenuous jobs were paid a pittance - less than Telecom linesmen and about the same as brickie's labourers. And their superannuation fund was ripping them off big time as well. There was no proper safety management. Death and injury rates were high, but their union couldn't even get them danger money (or didn't try!) At least that has changed since the State Government took over. And many councils weren't maintaining infrastructure very well either.

Privatization, however, has been a disaster - as anyone with a brain could have predicted. Over 100 head offices, CEO's, and teams of directors and fat-cat executives where there used to be one. Of course costs will rise.
4b2
14th Sep 2017
9:05am
This cant be true. Only six months ago Ciobo said when they axed the tax electricity prices were neve so low? This Turnbull mob gave up the gas rights in the Timor basin? And why arnt they solving the problem with petrol price cycles and over priced petrol, tis is also an energy cost to all AUSTRALIAN's.
4b2
14th Sep 2017
9:07am
I also wonder how much Mining interests donate to the Libs and Nats?
TREBOR
15th Sep 2017
1:28am
How deep are their pockets?
jamesmn
14th Sep 2017
9:39am
ll was on sunrise a week or so ago flapping his gums as usual saying he had set up a government website where all Australians could get a better deal on electricity and gas the website is called energy made easy .com.au after logging on the site told me after putting in my post code it WAS NOT for Victorians another pack of lies by this pm this bloke and Barnaby are lying their heads off to try and save their backsides both of you wait for the next election.
jamesmn
14th Sep 2017
9:39am
ll was on sunrise a week or so ago flapping his gums as usual saying he had set up a government website where all Australians could get a better deal on electricity and gas the website is called energy made easy .com.au after logging on the site told me after putting in my post code it WAS NOT for Victorians another pack of lies by this pm this bloke and Barnaby are lying their heads off to try and save their backsides both of you wait for the next election.
kinkakuji
14th Sep 2017
10:32am
Vesey of AGL has Burke`s ( Manager of opposition business.) live in bed warmer Ms Laris (ex Getup) as a senior executive. The whole thing has a stink hanging over it. He is for green energy, and the rest of the world is building new clean coal generators. eg Germany and France. etc etc.Ms Laris, who joined AGL in February as senior manager, digital engagement, is now a senior manager, public advocacy for the company. She is a former campaign director for GetUp! and has worked in a series of senior ALP jobs, including leading the party’s digital campaign for the 2013 federal election campaign and during Bill Shorten’s first few years in the Labor leadership.Immediately before joining GetUp! in March 2011, she was chief of staff and policy adviser to Labor frontbencher Tony Burke, who is also her partner.This week Ms Laris has ­re-tweeted messages from Mr Vesey’s Twitter feed that have declared “we’re getting out of coal” and “keeping old coal plants open won’t deliver the reliable, affordable energy our customers need”.This guy Vesey who still lives in the states (He is a fly in fly out bird.) is only in it for the money, and he will not be here for the closure of the power station, as he will be sunning himself in the Bahamas on our money..
johnp
14th Sep 2017
12:15pm
Yep, that sure has a stink hanging over it.
Good info Kinkakuji.
ALL OF THIS NEEDS TO GO VERY PUBLIC RIGHT NOW SOMEHOW !!
Also comes back to where I said :
"A significant proportion of users electricity bills go on all the other costs from plush offices, CEOs. boards of directors, upper management, sales, marketing, call centres, admin, analysts, strategy consultants, I.T. depts etc etc. "
Can now add such as :
Overseas executives only in it for the money, sunning in the Bahamas on our money, etc etc
Fair Dinkum
14th Sep 2017
12:31pm
If other countries can use coal in modefied power stations so that emission are reduced why can't we do the same.if we are so concerned about coal being so bad why are we selling it to other countries for use in their coal powered stations
Lookfar
14th Sep 2017
1:49pm
Fair Dinkum, reduced emissions are nothing like no emissions, coal fired generators get app 33% efficiency, if one gets 36% it is a news flash, but sfa in the scheme of things. Gas fired generators are much more efficient, and can start up quickly, but even gas will be phased out as the world gets more aware of the effect of the carbon increase in the atmosphere. Any way our gas has been sold off overseas otherwise most coal fired generators would now have been replaced.That in a way answers your question, - we are not being governed by smart sensiible, moral people but rather by idiots, who only know how to get the most money for doing their idiocy.
Kinkakijl's assertions need to be looked at carefully, Germany has built a smallish number of coal fired gensets as it closed or is closing, all it's nuclear powerstations, like wise France's Nuclear power stations are near the end of their lives and they are getting worried.
Germany in the meantime has ramped up it's renewable energy systems enormously, eg wind, - China (1/10) With a capacity of 114,763 Megawatts in 2014, China has by far the world's biggest wind power sector, accounting for 31% of the global total. ...
United States (2/10) ...
Germany (3/10) ...
Spain (4/10) ...
India (5/10) ...
United Kingdom (6/10) ...
Canada (7/10) ...
France (8/10), and that was 3 years ago, most of these industries have double digit increases every year.
Germany has also been developing Biomas bigtime.
One has to only look at coal fired stations in America, - definitely last weeks fish, with several closing every week, whilst Solar and Wind are powering ahead.
Even India has cancelled much of it's planned coal fired generation, - why, because solar costs 3 and coal 4 with the gap widening by the month.
Innuendos by Kinkakijl should be, imho, regarded as amusing, not believable.
Raphael
14th Sep 2017
3:32pm
Origin shares up 17% in 2 months
Keep it coming ORG.
Thanks lefties for pushing your clean energy agenda
Rae
15th Sep 2017
8:33am
And bring back the dividend.
Raphael
15th Sep 2017
1:21pm
Patience Ray
Next reporting season for sure
Not Senile Yet!
14th Sep 2017
3:55pm
Power prices are regulated in Canberra!
Deregulation has failed everywhere else...why would it NOT FAIL here?
Raphael
14th Sep 2017
3:58pm
Where has de-regulation failed ?

I see no evidence. Just whinging
heemskerk99
14th Sep 2017
4:26pm
still waiting for an answer from labor mick the damage coal has done compaired with the positives of that product over the last 150 years,
Raphael
14th Sep 2017
4:43pm
keep waiting heems

Mick just regurgitates from his labor hymm book
heemskerk99
15th Sep 2017
5:29pm
lookfar, but not too close, stating his beliefs in agl statements, he/she must still believe in PIGS CAN FLY, my recommendation to him if he have seen them fly please contact your nearest phycho, he/she is telling us agl is looking after our pockets, my belief, they are just trying to find out how much more of our money they can pluck out of them!!!!!!
Rainey
15th Sep 2017
4:23am
Yesterday, I visited a museum that displayed the history of electric cars. I photographed one made in 1917 that was more advanced than those made in the 1970s. A poster detailed how 4000 electric car prototypes had been destroyed and their inventors silenced.

I know a man who invented a clothes drier that runs on fresh air. He searched patents extensively before making a prototype and found nothing remotely like his idea. A year later, when applying for a provisional patent, he easily and quickly uncovered a patent registered years earlier, in the middle-east, that, oddly, used HIS photographs, drawings, and description (word for word). The only people who had sighted that material were his lawyer and the patent office staff. The rival ''inventor'' never commercialized his invention.

Many free energy inventions have been squashed over the past century and inventors persecuted or murdered. Research how much of Teslas's research was destroyed.

The bottom line is that free energy is possible, but its untimely release would wipe out the economy, so a gradual progression is planned that involves slowly allowing new technology and at the same time driving prices up so high that the public will demand new technology and the power-brokers will struggle to resist against public pressure.

Right now, it's all about political and economic power-broking. And the current trends will continue for some time to come. Install a solar system if you can. Solar does cut costs dramatically. Battery storage technology is improving and will soon enable disconnection from the grid - in the unlikely case that the powers-that-be will permit it! If installing solar, insist on an inverter that supports both feeding to the grid and feeding to battery. There are only a few that meet that criteria, and they cost more - but it's an investment that will yield in the future.

For those who can't install solar, buy an unpowered thermal cooker (Dream Pot, EcoPot, etc). They save a lot of cooking power and cook wonderfully flavoured dishes. Invest in good quality blankets and thermal underwear. Portable solar systems are relatively inexpensive and can be set up easily to run a TV and computer, charge your mobile phone, and even run a washing machine if you have the right size inverter. Invest in LED lighting if possible. Consider a sun-powered shower. Campers use them and find them very practical and they are cheap as chips - just a bag that you fill with water and hang high. I read the other day about a recent invention that converts an off-peak electric water heater to solar at much lower cost than installing a new solar water heating system.

And keep lobbying the government. Public pressure will eventually win the day if you keep hammering hard enough - especially in the lead-up to elections.
Raphael
15th Sep 2017
1:20pm
Me thinks you read too many spy novels and believe too many conspiracy theories

Who's that knocking on you door Rainey? Hope you have a secret escape tunnel under your house
TREBOR
15th Sep 2017
7:14pm
What about the pill that turned water into petrol? The oil companies hid that one (tongue in cheek).... so they could engineer massive profits....
Rainey
16th Sep 2017
3:07am
You really are an ignoramus, Raphael, if you don't believe in conspiracy to thwart inventors of free or cheap power. I can't believe anyone could be so naïve. And you pretend intelligence!

I suppose you also accept the LNP's claims that power costs have gone down?
Rainey
16th Sep 2017
3:09am
Well, don't hold your breath for power cost reductions. Our esteemed leaders announced in parliament that ''power costs have fallen''. And they rejected one possible way of addressing rising prices on the grounds that Barnaby Joyce was the minister who would have to approve the measure and they are not sure he's legally there! God help us all with these buffoons running the nation!
Rodent
16th Sep 2017
8:27am
Rainey, 3.09am this morning, wow

Haven't contributed for a while, but have followed all the BS in the Media.

Its always better to read the facts before commenting on this complex, highly Political subject of energy.
items of interest Read the National Energy Regulator reports, especially the latest 2016 report. Look at the LIVE energy data at both the NEM Watch, and the AEMO data Dashboard. And if really interested in FACTS then look a bit deeper at WattClarity, and Aneroid Energy websites, and then at least some may be better informed.
Its clear the Turnbull is shifting his position to focus on ONLY Reliability and Affordability, at the expense of Clean Energy, doing so to wedge Labor for the next election. This is nothing more that attempting to survive (HIM), he disguises this by saying he is doing it for us voters, clearly his motive of survival are self driven FIRST.
Like so many in the real world I have just about had enough of the Political elite, and their mindless games. -Nero fiddling while Rome Burns

Contributors don't get me wrong or read into this wrongly. I am a swinging voter I an not strongly for any party or group, quite frankly like so many out there I am sick of the lot of them!!!!
Rainey
17th Sep 2017
1:35am
Rodent, it wasn't 3.09 am where I was at the time. I was travelling.
Rodent
16th Sep 2017
8:47am
What I wrote might need clarity. The Report that is Most Interesting is under the Australian Energy Market Commission, its the Final Report 2016 Residential Electricity Price Trends Dec 2016
Rodent
16th Sep 2017
4:47pm
Last Point- not specifically re Energy

At the recent Liberal Party Federal Council meeting on June 24th 2017 Scott Morrison said "

Its no longer about convincing Australians to be on our side, but to convince Australians that we are on there's. To crack through the this thick ice we must communicate candidly and with authenticity. And we must answer with our actions the questions that Australians are asking." Do you get it, are you on my side?
Rainey
17th Sep 2017
1:34am
Coming from ScoMo, it's laugable! He has successfully convinced ALL of the less advantaged Australians that the LNP is their arch enemy and will focus forever on persecuting them for the benefit of the wealthy. Whether or not that's a fair assessment of the LNP matters not. That's what he's convinced vast numbers to believe with his cruel remarks and harsh policies. And the generous handouts to the wealthy have reinforced the message that his colleagues are firmly ON HIS SIDE.
Lookfar
17th Sep 2017
9:53am
Rodent, I have found that few people will look up an article unless you provide the link, and also that one can not win a "links argument", ie "my link over-rules your link" .
We have all found that this does not work because people have to have a good reason, that you have provided, or at the very least a quick synopsy showing what you have understood of the argument and the information's relevance. Links are only ever a back-up, we are all too busy to bother unless highly motivated.
Furthermore, the link has to be to the specific info, we are all over reading long articles with a tiny bit of info somewhere in there, - the phrase, "what did your last slave die of?" leaps to mind.
Anyway, here is a comment from an oil investor manager on Nuclear,
September 16, 2017

Dear Oil & Energy Investor,

Almost exactly one year ago, on September 15, 2016, the British government gave its approval for the construction of the Hinkley Point C nuclear power station.

Construction will cost some £20 billion, and the subsidies guaranteeing the reactor the right to sell its power at £92.50/MWh will cost an additional £50 billion.

As you can imagine, Hinkley Point C is quite a controversial project.

Well, it just got even more divisive...

Because the British government just held an auction for alternative energy, where companies competed to bid down the power price.

All 11 winners came in below the new nuclear power plant's £92.50/MWh.

Two offshore wind projects came in at £57.50/MWh - fully one-third less.

That's a huge win not only for wind turbine makers and the other alternative energy companies with winning bids...

But also for the firms that make the energy storage that will allow growing numbers of wind and solar provide the power grid with electricity 24/7.
Lookfar
17th Sep 2017
11:25am
Would that be leadership after the fact? - ie no leadership, or leadership based on Newspaper opinion polls? = above, or appealing to unthought about prejudices? - leading from the past, or rather pretending to.
Lost, poor souls, unable to lead anyone anywhere because they don't know where they are going but only that they want to have personal wealth and power, whatever the cost to our nation and our future.
Would be sad if it weren't so bad
heemskerk99
17th Sep 2017
5:57pm
lookfar, I live near two windmill farms and I still have to see the day that more than a THIRD of them are working at the same time, I pass them most days, last week we had 2 days of heavy wind, guess what, none of them worked, excuse, the wind was blowing too hard, as soon as windpower gets past a certain degree they have to close those farms down.
your previous comment, tenders for power stations in England, make as much sense as suggesting you be better off by buying two car wrecks instead of spending more money to buy a Roll Royce, to even compare prices of nuclear provided electricity to wind power provided electricity shows clearly the deficiency of your thinking as is backed up by your posts in these columns.
welcome to the real world even if you reject it.
Rodent
17th Sep 2017
5:39pm
Dear Lookfar. I understand the points you make and am happy to provide links at times. Quite frankly I doubt some are interested as they are over this Energy rubbish. As a reader of almost all the main Print Media I never cease to be amazed how poor the reporting is. For most reports a lacking in facts or real data, because that reporter is generally only page filling not actually doing the background research. An example is the so called 1000MW shortfall in power the Turnbull is claiming, and then linking this to Liddell. Its not actually what AEMO said, but what they do say is the is a % chance there will be a shortfall in Vic and SA this summer UNLESS certain steps are taken for which AEMO has a plan. I could go on ----

As I indicated IF you or ANYONE else is interested in SOME of the facts then go to this link for Aneriod energy http://anero.id/energy/ This web site has all the Generation data, PLUS heaps of other stuff of interest. You can select or deselect any power source to see its impact on the grid/state or whatever. Not picking on Liddell but it often has one or more of its Generators OFF LINE for given days or time periods, as do OTHER power stations
Last Point, as is usual with ALL politicians its difficult what or who to believe. Its often been said if you can see a Politicians lips moving he/she is lying!!

In regard to Liddell have a look at its recent MW and Capacity OUTPUTS over recent Months/Weeks and you will see that it is struggling to provide power outputs anywhere near its REDUCED RATED capacity. SO ARE SOME OTHER POWER STATIONS.
MT speaks about Dispatchable Power, I doubt he even knows what it actually means. It will be interesting to hear from those PEOPLE attending Liddell PS this Tuesday, I hope we hear some truth for a change
Lookfar
20th Sep 2017
1:42pm
Hi Rodent, nice to receive a discussive answer, - had a look at your link, great info.
I notice in the Cyclone Harvey stuff, that the wind farms that were on the trailing edge of the cyclone, were providing maximum power, - even though within a mile or two per hour of turning off to protect themselves, so boosted the grid significantly at a time when other forms of generation were failing, and also wind farms were quickly back in production when the high speed wind had passed, - not so much of the other forms.
This was not the case of South Australia where excessively high cot-offs turned off most of the wind turbines, - obviously the Americans have learn't a thing or two from their massive grid failures of many years ago. Perhaps time for Australia's grids to be updated..
heemskerk99
20th Sep 2017
6:03pm
reading the above comments of rodent and lookfar one has to ask how much more gullible can they both get, their statement: "there is a 0% change of blackouts during the coming summer in vic. and s.a", however it has just been announced on radio and t.v that the vic. government (labor) has disclosed, (was found out), it is installing generators at parliament house so as not to be left in the dark when the lights go out, of course this at a huge cost to the taxpayer and these two above geese still maintain pigs can fly, the most worrying fact is these people vote!!!
any wonder this once beautiful and liveable Country is going down faster then the titanic.
maybe it be it may help them if they read to-days herald-sun in regard to the cost of so called clean energy against coal fired energy, see the subsidises for clean energy against the increased taxes on coal, also see the statement of those learned people who told us the world was coming to an end unless we stopped using coal, at last some of them are now coming to their senses, wish this also would happen to lookfar and rodent,
Lookfar
20th Sep 2017
8:02pm
Ah, Heemskjerk, finally you have energed to confront your absurd statement that buying a Rolls Royce is better than an ordinary modern new car, despite that Rr cost 20 times + as much but only last 3 or 4 times longer, and costs hell and woolsworths in maintenance.
Dream on, most Rr buyers are substituting their small penises to attract women with a big expensive car, one could call such women prostitutes, but it has nothing to do with efficient electricity generation nor cheaper electricity.
Next time you pay your electricity bill you could think on this fact, electricity from wind in the US is getting down to 2 cents/kilowatt/hr, shortly it will be 2 cents without any Tax assistance at all, then keep dropping, - what will that do to all your illusions and claims that others are not in the real world?
The real world moves on, perhaps you can run fast enough to keep up? Probably not without really looking at all the facts. - Good Luck.
heemskerk99
20th Sep 2017
9:20pm
sorry the name is lookfar
heemskerk99
21st Sep 2017
6:16pm
lookfar, your's is the typical answer of a loser, just attempt to change the subject when confronted by the truth, may be you could explain to us what your, by your own words, small penis and prostitudes have to do with the ylc question about the cost of energy or for that same matter what they pay for electricity in America, I live in Australia which has the highest rates for electricity in the world and all that thanks to the solar and wind industry, you and your misguided, brainless and easy led followers champion for closing down coal fired power stations, while the solar industry receive the largest subsidy ever known to mankind from the government and yet they still can't come up with guarantees to keep us free of black-outs, then again the owners of a coal fired power station in nsw agl, are stating it would cost too much to update yet it is reported it would be in their interest to close the station as the subsidies for renewables would be larger than the cost of upgrading.
lookfar, just for once look up, take that silly hat off, what was the name of the ass who was wearing one and your brains or whatever is left might put you on the right track, it might be hard if not impossible but miracles might happen!!!


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