Paper bill charges could soon be a thing of the past

Hard copy bill charges could soon be a thing of the past.

Paper bill charges could soon be a thing of the past

Utility charges are a regular expense many find challenging to manage. Being charged a fee to receive such bills in the mail borders on arrogance. But hard copy charges could soon be a thing of the past.

The trend towards receiving all bills in digital format and paying them online almost rules out the need for human interaction, and hence the staff required to manage face-to-face transactions.

But there are many who live in remote areas without internet access (1.3 million Australian households don’t have internet access), can’t afford internet access, don’t have the technology to facilitate such transactions, don’t have the skills to manage digital bills or who simply prefer the security and personal touch of physical transactions.

Utilities, including power companies, gas suppliers, telcos and financial institutions have long been pushing for purely digital operations and penalising anyone who still choosing to receive a hard copy bill. It obviously reduces running costs for these corporations. But it also comes at a cost to the 2.5 million Australian households that could buckle under the weight of these extra fees which, while only a few dollars per bill, can add up over the course of a year.

With this in mind, State and Federal governments have asked the Commonwealth Treasury to investigate ways of potentially restricting paper bill fees.

Some believe they should be banned altogether.

"Whilst we can be caught on the digital wave and think it's a great thing that everything is now there and available electronically, we need to think through the implications," said Martin North, from research firm Digital Finance Analytics.

"I think the idea of letting industry fight it out with consumers is a poor option, simply because [I think] it's an unequal battle."

The Consumer Action Law Centre is also calling for an outright ban on hard copy bill and statement fees, saying that those affected "are often our most vulnerable and disadvantaged citizens", and "often those least able to afford it are paying more for services".

State and Federal MPs are considering all options and will convene in the next few months.

Do you think it’s fair to be charged for hard copy bill? Do you still receive your ills in the mail – by choice or necessity?

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    COMMENTS

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    Misty
    29th Jan 2018
    10:15am
    I do receive some credit card, telephone and council bills by mail, never noticed there was a charge for them, I thought the main reason for digital billing was to save the environment NOT TO DO AWAY WITH PEOPLE'S JOBS.
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    11:07am
    Have noticed no charges in above mentioned bills either, although
    on the envelope they say they would like you to switch. My debit
    card certainly want me to but I do not use the net for financials and pay my bills at the post office or at the council office. Of course it is to do with doing away with peoples' jobs, Misty. That is also a reason for not using self check-out at Coles and Woolies.
    KSS
    29th Jan 2018
    12:49pm
    The sole reason for digital billing is to outsource the costs of producing and sending out a paper bill to the customer. And the biggest cost is labour! No bills to send, no labour required!
    Misty
    29th Jan 2018
    10:21am
    I will be checking all my bills now to see what charges are there.
    KB
    29th Jan 2018
    11:05am
    I prefer a paper copy as sometimes pay at the post office. Also having the latest bill can add u ID points, Too costly to run the printer if I need a copy. It should be about choice. Computers can break down if your rely on digital
    VeryCaringBigBear
    2nd Feb 2018
    8:01am
    Too costly to run a printer? Buy a printer than uses cheap cartridges. Just bought 5 cartridges for my printer for less than $5 each and they were the larger size ones not those small genuine ones that last only a few pages. Buy paper when half price or better. Print on both sides and reuse paper only printed on one side. I get a box of paper printed only on one side given to me from a local office. I also have a paper threader which makes great bedding for my industrious composting worms.

    There are so many devices in most homes now that if one breaks down there is an alternative available. I have 5 computers and 2 tablets plus about half a dozen mobile phones that we use around here.
    johnp
    29th Jan 2018
    11:06am
    Paying bills in digital format and/or direct debits discourages good bill scrutiny and results in higher likelihood of bills being paid automatically. This technique means people often paying more by default which companies like.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    8:00pm
    Rubbish you get bills electronically way before you are direct debited. Great when you are away being bills automatically paid. Any bills not direct debited I just post date them online and they get paid automatically as well.
    Charlie
    29th Jan 2018
    11:09am
    Is this going to be like the "big age pension rise'
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    1:13pm
    Aussie pensioners have already received that "big age pension rise". Age pensions are far higher now than they used to be. They were increased by a massive 10% in 1972 with another huge increase in 2009 (all this in addition to the regular yearly and now twice yearly increases).

    Single age pensioners now get $894 (plus whatever they get from their super/pension accounts).

    The government age pension was only ever meant to be a "safety
    net". It was NEVER, EVER meant to be a government income designed to sustain a person in the way the person has been sustained via wages and a job. if anyone wants to live it up after retirement, then they should save up lots of money whilst working, then retire, then LIVE IT UP (it's a free country and good on 'em). If the money runs down too much eventually then they'll eventually become eligible for a part age pension.

    Back on subject ---- I looked at my power bill and there's no extra charges "declared" for having it posted. Maybe they don't have to declare that extra charge even if they do apply it ......any lawyers out there know?
    JustGus
    29th Jan 2018
    11:04pm
    You forget inflation Jimd the 10% at the time was still less than it should have been..and Originally the money from the pension fund was meant to be paid to everybody on reaching retirement age FREE of means testing as it was 7.5% of general taxation put into a special fund... just for age pensions. If this fund had been left untouched Over the years there would be more than enough in it now to ensure there was no problem in paying everybody a reasonable pension on retirement today.
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    12:00am
    The age pension was only ever meant to be a "safety net" and nothing more. It was never meant to be paid to absolutely every retired person over the age of 60 (women) or 65 (men).

    Means testing, and other testing, has always been in place since age pensions were introduced in 1909. In 1950 the financing had changed from many different State and Federal sources to exclusively Federal general revenue. The age pension means test remained in place. The means test remained in place till 1976, it was then replaced with the income test. In 1985 an assets test was introduced for age pensions.

    The current single age pension of $894 (including supplements) is a "safety net" so that pensioners don't go without food, clothing, basic roof over the head. There's also huge assistance with medical care (a hospital stay for a heart attack or any essential surgery treatment is FREE for example), medicines are heavily subsidised as well as transport, many goods and services, rent, water and council rates .... the list is near endless.

    We pensioners are very lucky to live in a country with such a good age pension system. However there will always be well off oldies with million dollar houses, half a million in savings, half a million in their super/pension fund who are unhappy and feel deprived because they don't get a "full" pension. These quite well off oldies feel "entitled" and boy do they whinge about it. They don't comprehend that the age pension is a "safety net" and NOT an entitlement to all.
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    6:56am
    Don't argue with JimD, JustGus. It's futile.

    You are absolutely right of course. And this nonsense about ''if anyone wants to live it up they should save lots of money'' is ridiculous because unless you are very, very wealthy, saving DISADVANTAGES you.

    The pension was intended to support seniors in reasonable comfort when they could no longer work. Superannuation was introduced to supplement the pension and both ease the burden on taxpayers (over time - it can't much yet because most of today's retirees didn't have much) AND to improve the lifestyle of retirees.

    Unfortunately, this government has made two major errors. It has assumed superannuation should SUBSTITUTE for the pension, rather than COMPLEMENT it, and it has forgotten that most of today's retirees didn't have the benefit of superannuation for most of their working lives.

    The major error made by this government was changing the assets test, because affected savers who can get between 2 and 6% return on savings (and the government says 5% is the average) can achieve a 7.8%+ income gain by reducing their savings. That means that saving DISADVANTAGES you. In effect, you are being taxed at a very high rate on savings you already paid tax on when you earned the money in the first place, and you get no benefit at all from having sacrificed those restaurant dinners and lavish holidays. Neither does the benefit flow to anyone in real need. It flows to people with a few hundred thousand in savings, whose income will often be double that of the affected saver. Of course the affected saver can draw on their savings to fund their better lifestyle, and in a few years they have given all their savings to the government and they don't have them anymore to fund a better lifestyle.

    Unfortunately, many just don't understand numbers well enough to comprehend how this works and how unfair it is - and apparently our politicians are either too stupid to get it or too selfish to care. Eventually, it has to increase the cost of the aged pension and reduce the amount available for everyone, and it's astonishing how few people are able to grasp that concept.

    But back to the bills - I imagine everyone will pay a little more to cover the loss from not charging for a service that costs. I sympathize with those who are hit with these charges, but there IS a cost to mail a paper bill and someone has to pay it. If the recipient doesn't, everyone else will pay more to compensate.
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    12:12pm
    Rainey thinks saving "disadvantages" a person. Rainey doesn't comprehend the difference between savings and income. Nor does he comprehend that the age pension has only ever been designed as a "safety net" and **NEVER** designed to keep people in "comfort". But it's 100% futile debating his uneducated and misguided logic regarding this because he is ideologically locked into a fixed position, and repeats the exact same ideology endlessly on this site, and thinks it's "fact" ha ha, and will never, ever accept reeducation no matter what.

    But back to the bills - there IS a cost for digital billing (smaller), and not "only" for paper billing.
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    3:23pm
    Sorry if facts offend you, JimD, but it's a FACT that saving disadvantages retirees in certain asset holding brackets. There has been copious examination and discussion of this and even the government admits it, though they refuse to reverse their stupid policy.

    It's nothing to do with the difference between savings and income. SAVINGS REDUCE because your income is less when you have more assets. Until you get well above the $1 million mark (for a homeowner couple), the income loss from having assets is far greater than the income from the assets, so you are disadvantaged - going backwards! You have to either draw on savings, reducing them, or live on less than pensioners receive. If you have to draw, you may well have to cash in assets at an inopportune time, when their value is down. Investors are often cautioned to hold through down times, but they can't if they need the income to live on. Even if you don't have to draw at an inopportune time, you are effectively donating your savings to the taxpayer. And that's unfair, because you already paid tax on the income before you banked it, and the rate of tax on savings is extortionate by comparison with income tax.

    If you draw on your savings to substitute for pension loss, your income increases by 7.8% of the reduced savings. More if the reduction qualifies you for pension concessions. And that return increases twice yearly, whereas your income from savings - which is likely to be much less - does not increase (and often reduces).

    Sorry, JimD, but I am neither uneducated nor misguided on this point, and it has NOTHING whatever to do with the original purpose or intention of the aged pension. It's simple mathematics. Obviously, you don't grasp mathematical concepts very well.
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    3:24pm
    As I said, JustGus, there's no point responding to JimD. He just responds with INSULTS, as you see in his post above.
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    4:40pm
    Rainey, thanks for proving my point yet again.

    Rainey = immovable, fixed, inflexible ideology.
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    5:08pm
    Because it is CORRECT JimD. You can't argue with conclusive numerical proof, unless you choose to simply ignore it and pretend. But keep insulting if you think you win points by it. I suspect most here have the intelligence to look at the numbers and see that they say precisely what I claim.
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    7:15pm
    Saving ADVANTAGES. Saving does NOT disadvantage. If you've not arranged your savings/asset mix to advantage you then you have **FAILED** as a financial manager of your affairs.

    Constantly, post after post - topic to topic, restating one specific worse case scenario also displays an "ideological" bent from Rainey.

    The age pension is only a **SAFETY NET** and nothing more ..... it was NEVER, EVER designed to enable nicely off people like Rainey to live under the same conditions as well off workers.

    Rainey, hop off you ideological high horse. You are NOT "disadvantaged". Money is **NOT** being taken from you. You are **NICELY** off. You have a home worth **LOTS** of $$$$$$, and you have **LOTS** of $$$$$$ in savings. So stop constantly whinging about your fake "disadvantage".

    Some folks want it all, and when they perceive they aren't getting it all they then hop on an ideological high horse and whinge, whinge, whinge. They are so blind they can't see how NON disadvantaged they are.

    Rainey, you have scant appreciation of how nicely well off you are, and scant appreciation of how lucky you are to live in a generous country that gives you an age pension as a **SAFETY NET** when you qualify. Show some appreciation and be thankful.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    7:19am
    Firstly, JimD, you don't know whether I'm ''nicely off'' or not, nor do you have any knowledge whatever of my level of appreciation of my circumstances. You make wild assumptions with no basis.

    As stated over and over again, my concern is not for me. It's for the nation. I am not even affected.

    We have a flawed tax system. The numbers cannot be argued with. Retiree home-owner couples who cannot save well over $1 million ARE disadvantaged. Their savings benefit the taxpayer unless they can achieve well over a 7.8% return (which the government says most do not). That's statistical fact, and it has nothing whatever to do with my circumstances or my appreciation of anything.

    I want to see a flawed pension system corrected for the benefit of the nation - and primarily for the benefit of the neediest aged who will suffer in the future if the flawed system continues, because we will hear more and more of ''it's costing too much'' and more demands to cut pensions.

    You seem to have a brain blockage in that you can't comprehend that this is nothing to do with me personally. It's a valid concern about the economy, based on accurate statistical data that proves conclusively that savings DO NOT BENEFIT many retirees because the system gives much more to those who save much less.

    I'm sorry it so offends you for someone to deal in FACT and not personal issues, and/or to refuse to be silenced about an issue that should be of major concern to ALL retirees and that we should ALL be uniting to demand is remedied, for the benefit of ALL Australians.

    It's not about giving anyone more, or supporting anyone who isn't in need. It's about sensibly reforming a flawed system so that it is more economically sustainable and fairer.

    Is it remotely possible that you could get off your high horse and start thinking past your wild and invalid nasty assumptions long enough to understand that the FACTS are FACTS and it has nothing to do with personalities or appreciation. It's about NUMBERS, JimD. Nothing more. Nothing less. Numbers that PROVE CONCLUSIVELY that our system is not serving the best interests of the Australian people because it is badly designed and badly implemented.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    7:29am
    Ask BigBear why he gave away money and cruised the world. Because the system PUNISHES people who don't, JimD. If everyone did what BigBear did, there would be NOTHING for the needy. But the system is rewarding him richly and punishing those who are more ethical and responsible. Put your personal grudges against me aside for a while and try to focus on FACT.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    11:53am
    I agree with JimD.

    The system should not reward people to do what I did but the rules allow it. There are many loopholes in the current system.

    After seeing the results of what I have done I would not hesitate to do it again even if the rules didn't allow it. The difference it has made to the lives of my family is worth it alone. It is awesome to see young people live without mortgage stress. Best part is I live the life I want as well.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    12:48pm
    Firstly: Rainey falsely wrote "you don't know whether I'm nicely off or not". Yes I do. A month or so ago Rainey wrote on this very forum that he fully owned a house and property, and had many multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. That means he's worth close to one and a half MILLION dollars at the very least.

    Rainey is a MILLIONAIRE.

    Secondly: Rainey falsely wrote "my concern is not for me". That's an untruth from Rainey. Constantly, day after day after day on this site, Rainey raises the point of how **HE** is **PERSONALLY** affected by one particular rule regarding his assets, and sets out the "numbers" regarding this. It's clear and 100% beyond doubt from this, that Rainey constantly and insistently whinges that he's utterly dissatisfied having a net worth of a MILLIONAIRE ..... he want MORE, MORE, MORE $$$$$$ for **HIMSELF**.

    Millionaires have every right to be millionaires. But when they start whinging and moaning and groaning that they are "disadvantaged" and "struggling" with their wealth (like Rainey) then I step in and offer my opinion about their whinging. They really hate that, ha ha ha.

    Rainey needs to appreciate his very privileged financial position, but doesn't. Now that he's nicely off in later life he still considers himself to be "disadvantaged" rather than being grateful that he's been able to accumulate all his wealth. Rainey delivers whinging, not gratitude.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    12:55pm
    JImD Rainey was planning their retirement based on the old asset test and simply doesn't like the recent changes to it.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:11am
    Both WRONG WRONG WRONG. I am NOT a millionaire. (I wish!) and I was NOT planning retirement based on the old assets test.

    And JimD, you are lying. I have NEVER said I was personally affected by any rule regarding assets. I have repeatedly said I am NOT affected, and I am very content.

    I am concerned about the ECONOMY.

    Apparently SMALL BRAINED SELFISH PEOPLE HERE can't think past their own selfish little world.

    How much are you two paid for defending a BAD SYSTEM that is hurting the entire Australian population?

    What benefit do you get out of attacking and denigrating someone for stating an opinion about something that doesn't impact them personally? Why would you do that?
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:27am
    JimD, are the personal attacks because it upsets you that I deal in FACT - not unvalidated and often absurdly misguided OPINION?

    What is wrong with you that you have to launch a personal attack every time I refer to the statistical facts that everyone with a brain is aware of and thousands are publicly acknowledging on a regular basis.

    Our world is a mess because of people who can't deal objectively in fact but have to make everything personal and in THEIR interests.

    If retirees would stop thinking about themselves and unite with a common purpose, we could move mountains - forcing improvements that would benefit ALL Australians enormously.

    I don't want the government handing out more money. I am happy to keep working. I hope I can keep working until I drop dead - hopefully in my chair at work. I have a great life. I just want to see those who are hurt by injustice get a better deal. And that includes taxpayers who are funding millionaires on pensions.

    I know what BigBear's beef is. He doesn't want the system fixed because he benefits from manipulating through the flaws. But most people have more integrity than that. They don't WANT to manipulate through flaws. They want the system to work well for everyone. And my sole purpose in highlighting issues is to work towards that goal.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    3:08pm
    Rainey I really can't see how the system could be "fixed" so that I would lose. Only way I can think of is that any OAP I get will be debt upon my estate but the value of my house will cover than many times over. I could lose if they disallow people on OAP with houses worth more than a certain value but the only loss to me will be my travel spending money so I might not be able to travel as much as I do now. I really can't see that happening as I would still qualify for welfare as I don't have the means to support myself.

    Best thing would be to give the OAP to everyone which is what I already have now.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    5:49pm
    Well then STOP opposing exposure of the problems and support efforts to get it fixed, for the benefit of those who are suffering unfairness now - and for the benefit of the next generation, who are going to suffer terribly as a result of an unsustainable flawed system.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    8:03pm
    Whatever system we have there will be winners and losers so it can't be fixed for everyone to only benefit. Remember nothing in life is fair in the minds of most people.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    7:56am
    Well that's a classic cop-out that suggests incompetence is a reason for not trying, BigBear.

    We CAN have a much better system. The current one is designed to be bad so that it benefits the unconscionable and hurts the honest and ethical. We CAN do better, but not if the unconscionable and selfish keep objecting to suggestions of positive reform.

    If you are a quitter who believes we can't do better, or if you are self-centred and don't care, just be quiet and let others lobby for a better world. Stop obstructing. So you are all good. Great! Then go away and let people who are not have their say without being contradicted with selfish and ego-centric responses.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    2nd Feb 2018
    8:08am
    OK lobby for a better system but better for who? I'm certainly not a quitter but one size certainly won't fit everyone. Give more to the so called poor and those who miss out will whinge just like they are doing with the change in the asset test.

    How do you have a better system that benefits everyone without taking away the incentives of people to look after themselves? Eg NDIS might seem like a better system but it is a very costly and wasteful system as people no longer have the incentive to do things cheaply.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    11:37am
    Rainey is now issuing personal putdowns about another forum member and implying that they apply to the member "if" the member does not agree with "Rainey's" opinion.

    That's rude, denigrating behaviour from Rainey and in breach of the forum's terms and conditions.

    Moderators, please act.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    7:38pm
    JimD, you really do have a massive problem, don't you? I am not ''implying'' anything. I'm stating an opinion about people who insult others for wanting positive change. There's no ''personal put down''. But boy have you and BigBear been busy attacking me with personal insults! And you outright defamed, so put a sock in it.

    BigBear, there are better systems that are FAIR and economically sustainable. Yes, people whinged about the assets test change - justifiably, because it was WRONG. It's detrimental to the nation and grossly unfair. The only people who would whinge about the RIGHT change are the stinking greedy manipulative cheats, and they don't count.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    9:32pm
    Yet again Rainey labels people who don't agree with him, by using personally abusive and derogatory language, in flagrant breach of the forum terms and conditions.

    Moderators, please intervene.
    Anonymous
    3rd Feb 2018
    3:08pm
    JimD, stop letting your wild imagination run wild and get over your personal grudge. It's boring!
    Anonymous
    4th Feb 2018
    11:22am
    Yet another post from Rainey in breach of forum terms and conditions. Rainey's weapon is personal abuse/attack.
    Anonymous
    4th Feb 2018
    6:06pm
    Rant on. JimD. You do have a wild imagination. And there is a NOTHING abusive in saying so.
    Anonymous
    4th Feb 2018
    7:32pm
    More personal attacks from Rainey. Speaks for itself.

    Moderators please note.
    HarrysOpinion
    29th Jan 2018
    11:13am
    I pay some of my bills by Credit Card and there is always a surcharge. Why?
    When I purchase goods online with a credit card there is no surcharge.
    What's the bloody difference?
    Honest traders and crooked traders, that's the difference !
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    11:32am
    At Coles and Woolies and their subsidiaries (like Big W and Bunnings) I do not get charges added to my credit card but at Aldi I do and so when I go to Aldi I pay in cash. On line there is often no other way of paying maybe that is the reason they do not charge you.
    KSS
    29th Jan 2018
    12:37pm
    Organisations are allowed to charge the cost of processing credit card payments. Up until recently those that did often had a flat fee if you paid by credit card. This particularly applied to airlines and other ticketing services such as entertainment tickets. This was recently made illegal and only the actual cost can now be recovered. It meant that for some, the fees dropped to between 1% -2% of the transaction charge. Most companies do not pass this cost on to the consumer but others do.
    Tarabelle
    29th Jan 2018
    4:12pm
    I have been to 2 different local takeaway/delis in the last couple of months and have been charged a "surcharge" for using my EFTPOS card! When challenged one shop told me they were with Bank SA and they were charged. SA Bank had set up their eftpos machine to automatically charge this "surcharge" on purchases - even if they were well over the minimum charge amount. Stinks!!!!!
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    4:50pm
    HS, use a MasterCard Debit Card?
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    10:01am
    I use a Visa for everything and rarely see a charge, but Aldi charge so I use it as a debit card there (the card works as either just by selecting Credit or Debit - except if you tap, which always means Credit)

    The few times I have paid a charge I haven't really minded much because the reward points are generous and more than compensate. I pay rates and utility bills by EFT to avoid credit card charges.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    2:11pm
    Some service stations in Queensland are now passing on the credit card charges to their customers.

    Just been for a trip to NZ and got a good exchange rate and no fees using my credit card for everything. Using cash is just so expensive in comparison.
    Seadove
    29th Jan 2018
    11:19am
    I still like to receive some of my bills via snail mail and get charged $2.75 for paying at the Post Office. I signed up to receive my mobile bill through email but it wasn't sent through one month and when I rang to complain I had not received it they said to check it on my account myself and not wait for the email, so they are even jacking up about sending emails now. It's a giant rip off if you ask me and they should stop it altogether.
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    4:52pm
    Telcos are nincompoops and scumbags. The sooner there's a Royal Commission into the whole sector with enforceable punitive outcomes, the better.
    Rosey
    29th Jan 2018
    11:19am
    When I went to school. Bills issued by companies were calculated as Direct Costs + Indirect Costs + Profit Margin = Charge to consumer. In other words the costs of administering the issuance of bills was already included so when were they given the right to "double - dip"?
    HarrysOpinion
    29th Jan 2018
    11:21am
    Crooks always give themselves the right to steal as much as they can.

    29th Jan 2018
    11:35am
    Well done to the government for forcing those charging for paper bills and paying in cash to be stopped as they are ripping us off. Any business worth its salt will have already factored the cost of collection of debtors into their overheads and to add a fee is sharp practice. We receive all of our bills on paper although we pay by direct debit. We have never been charged a fee for the paper bill and that may be tied in with our method of payment.
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    1:22pm
    OM wrote "We have never been charged a fee for the paper bill".

    I bet that every paper bill we receive incurs a "charge" for the postage and paper costs. I suspect there's legal ways to get around openly declaring this as a "charge" or "fee" to the customer.

    Are there any lawyers out there who positively know whether or not companies are legally entitled to "not" separately declare postage/paper fees to the customer?
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    3:07pm
    Thanks JimD, have you ever run a business? Of course everyone is charged for all of those incidentals that any business incurs; rates, water rates, electricity, telephone, stationery, postage, rental and vehicle costs. If a business didn't allow for these items then they wouldn't last the first month, they are commonly referred to as overheads. When utility companies started charging extra for doing what they should have allowed for, that is why the government has said, on behalf of voters, enough is enough.
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    6:15pm
    "When utility companies started charging extra for doing what they should have allowed for" ...... that "extra" is always there whether it's defined as "extra" or "should have been allowed for". Always has been.

    My point is about the "legalities" of public disclosure to customers. I am certain that there's zero legal obligation for any companies to disclose postal charges that customers incur. I suspect there's DOZENS of legal manipulations that can be applied by companies to avoid full, clear disclosure. I was seeking a viewpoint from specifically a lawyer, or at least a person trained in industrial law.
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    3:12pm
    They don't have to disclose if they charge all customers the same and it's built into their pricing - as it is to the majority of businesses. Can you imagine if every business had to specify the portion of their bill that is allocated to sending out invoices and statements and/or collecting payment?

    If it's an ''extra'' only charged in certain circumstances, it needs to be described in terms that clarify what the charge is for, though I'm sure there are legal ways to describe it vaguely so that the customer is deceived.
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    4:47pm
    JlmD wrote, "I am certain that there's zero legal obligation for any companies to disclose postal charges that customers incur".

    JlmD wrote, "there's DOZENS of legal manipulations that can be applied by companies to avoid full, clear disclosure".

    Thanks for repeating what I wrote Rainey.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    7:41am
    Sorry, JimD. I guess I should have given you a medal. I forgot your personal hatred of me prohibits me daring to respond to any comment from you. But you did ask for a comment from someone trained in industrial law, and as it happens, I am.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    12:45pm
    Rainey I love U with all my heart. Love and kisses from me. oxoxoxox
    Polly Esther
    29th Jan 2018
    12:03pm
    That'll be the day
    MICK
    29th Jan 2018
    12:05pm
    And you believe that removing paper bills is going mean cheaper bills? Where's the Tooth Fairy?
    Priscilla
    29th Jan 2018
    12:19pm
    I still receive my bills in the mail. My concern is that if my internet is not working then I will not receive the bills and will be penalised. A friend of mine recently had her phone disconnected by Telstra because she had not paid her bill but she had not received a bill. Also I do receive bills via e-mail but am still charged extra to Bpay! I have complained about this to no avail! Just can't win.
    jackie
    29th Jan 2018
    12:25pm
    If internet connections have to be compulsory because utility companies say so. Provide free internet to all.
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    12:30pm
    Now jackie, that's what I call thinking outside the square. What a great point, I'm with you on this one.
    Budwah
    29th Jan 2018
    12:29pm
    I have also received paperless bills, but they are not less because they are paperless.
    Just another con - reduce the service charge the same, win win for the companies.
    KSS
    29th Jan 2018
    12:46pm
    Optus and Energy Australia both charge for paper bills. In the case of Energy Australia the cost was $1.69. I say 'was' because I read yesterday that they are removing this awful charge in March.

    Whilst we are at it. Can we also have a campaign against companies who charge you $2 for NOT paying by direct debit? I make electronic payments for my bills and they cost the company no more for processing than direct debit. Why should I and others be punished for something we don't do? I have never defaulted on a bill ever even in the days before computers. I refuse to give anyone access to my bank account which is exactly what you are doing when you enter into a direct debit arrangement. Fine if that's what you want, but I'm a responsible adult and can manage my own financial affairs!
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    10:03am
    Yes KSS, this is one practice that really annoys me. I pay my bills on time. Direct Debit is hard to reverse. You have to get the supplier to cancel usually. And it makes it very hard to contest an overcharge. Perhaps that's why they penalize you for not agreeing to it? It means they can get away with overcharges more easily and are less likely to have to incur costs responding to a complaint.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    3rd Feb 2018
    8:24am
    Direct debit isn't hard to reverse no matter who puts it in place. Even if they won't reverse it then you just take all the money out of your account and instruct the bank not to allow it to be overdrawn. The merchant will then have to negotiate with you to get their money. One of my family members had a gym direct debit that they had trouble cancelling so that's what we had to do. Since they had asked in writing to cancel it 3 months prior the bank refunded all the direct debits from that date as well. I have a separate account for all my direct debits so I can take all the money out and stop payments.
    happy
    29th Jan 2018
    12:56pm
    I insist on hard copies of energy, insurance and some other bills because I file them and can easily refer back to compare year to year. Do banking and bill paing on line. Only have a tablet and mobile phone. So not adequate for storing bills etc.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    2nd Feb 2018
    12:31pm
    Just get a flash drive and cable and then you can store heaps of information on it from your tablet. I don't trust the cloud backup so use one myself on my tablet.
    happy
    29th Jan 2018
    1:02pm
    Pay my mobile phone bill on line and pay a surcharge for that. Only way to avoid that charge is to set up direct debit which I refuse to do.
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    3:07pm
    If you can give the utility companies a pension number then there is no charge for paper bills
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    7:34am
    I agree that's a rort, happy. I know some companies demand direct debit or up their fees and that's really wrong! Once you give them direct debit authority, only THEY can end it and you have no protection against overcharges.

    Since when, trod? To my knowledge, none of the utility companies in our area wave charges for paper bills for pensioners. If you complain about the fee, they tell you to use direct debit if you can't receive bills online.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    3:33pm
    Rainey you can get your bank to cancel direct debits too. I have done it myself on a couple of occasions. I have also had the bank cancel bank cheques that have gone missing as well.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    5:44pm
    No, BigBear. The bank won't cancel direct debits if you authorized the supplier to set it up - which is what most companies demand.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:11pm
    No Rainey. Banks DO cancel direct debits (both savings accounts and credit cards) "when" you follow correct cancellation procedures; cancelling direct debits from your savings accounts is VERY easy; regarding credit cards, the bank will be under an obligation to reverse the charges should the business continue to direct debit. If you've entered into a written agreement to pay "only" via credit card direct debit to the business, then the business can sue you if you instruct the bank to reverse direct debit charges (but sometimes not, depending on the precise wording of the contract)

    Educate yourself by reading this link www.moneyhelp.org.au/tools-tips/cancelling-a-direct-debit/

    But you won't agree with it. Why? Because anyone, any teacher, or any institution who says something that does not conform to your "beliefs" just gets personally abused by you ..... as evidenced by your replies on this topic.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    7:15pm
    Rainey I have had the bank cancel direct debits for me so if your bank won't cancel them then you need to find a bank that works for you not some one else.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    7:33pm
    They will cancel if YOU set it up. They will not if the supplier does. And very many suppliers force customers to allow them to set it up. Stop pretending you know everything, BigBear. You are WRONG on this occasion (and many others!)
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    9:28pm
    More personal, abusive putdowns from Rainey.

    Moderators please take note.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    3rd Feb 2018
    8:25am
    Rainey of tnere is no money in your account and you have instructed your bank your account is not be overdrawn your direct debits will be stopped.
    Anonymous
    3rd Feb 2018
    3:13pm
    What abuse, JimD. You have a wild imagination!
    Anonymous
    3rd Feb 2018
    3:15pm
    BigBear, I don't want to have to take all my money out of an account to stop someone wrongly helping themselves to my money. You are admitting direct debit can be a problem, so stop arguing to the contrary. I think if the sky were blue you'd claim it was green just to argue!
    VeryCaringBigBear
    3rd Feb 2018
    4:15pm
    So you only have one account Rainey. What would you do if that organisation froze your account? I have money in various institutions myself as I don't want to be inconvenienced.
    Anonymous
    4th Feb 2018
    6:08pm
    No, I have multiple accounts, And I don't want to empty ANY of them to avoid being the victim of fraud.
    inquisitive
    29th Jan 2018
    2:40pm
    I receive bills for utilities via email, but have a lot of neighbours and friends receive bills via the post,( I live in a retirement village ). I thought that if you were a senior there wasn't an extra charge for a posted account, however the electricity co's give a discount to those who receive their a/c on line, so my neighbours miss out on this.

    29th Jan 2018
    3:02pm
    Of course they should be banned. All these companies have been sending paper bills without going broke for donkeys years; charging for paper bills is just another example of their greed. I wrote to a gas company and bank stating that I would be quite happy if they didn't send me a bill at all or failing that buy me a computer, a printer and an internet connection.
    Paper bill fees are waived for those on a pension. In reality they do not charge "a few dollars per bill", my experience for each has been less than $2 however for a bank statement every month the charges do add up, less so for utility companies who bill quarterly.
    Lookfar
    29th Jan 2018
    3:03pm
    Emails can be unreliable, as can the usually cruder equipment used as back-up, technicians can make major mistakes, so can you and I the users, lightning can sneak in and totally destroy memories within the computer, or rather the access to the memories, then we all used to have CD's to back-up, then they proved to have an even shorter life than cassettes the which we had replaced our old Vynils with, - I could go on, technology goes on, but the cutting edge is usually the younger generation who can't imagine anyone wanting to keep stuff for 10 years, let alone 40 years, so it becomes a continuously rising expense to transfer ones data to more and more expensive media, to keep on the treadmill of continual computer and operating system upgrade, particularly difficult on todays mean old age pension, when just a bit of paper will do the job, - vaguely filed in a cardboard box, kept somewhere dry, lasting for multi decades.
    Living in the Tropics, within a black hole of electromagnetic non reception, I was asked, more and more stridently, by the ANZ bank to go non-paper, I explained the above reasons and politely declined, suddenly no more paper bills, had not memorised paaswords, - you are not supposed to keep a list anyway, so could not access my account online, visited the sub branch, an hour away, always lots of people waiting, - never was before, hmm.. now I have no idea what is going on with my accounts, loan, credit card, etc. lotsa emails, I can't open them, am faithfully filing them away till my next computer crash.. - no doubt some brown stuff will hit some fan sometime, in the meantime I have maybe 20 years of life left, (am 67) I won't give any oxygen to these madmen, and when they come clamouriing I will point out that they did it in direct contradiction to my wishes, Tough Titties.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    30th Jan 2018
    8:17pm
    Gee nothing could be as unreliable as our postal system these days. These days one gets not only emails but push and SMS messages that bills are available as well.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    7:36am
    I live in a country area and have never had an issue with the post. But I've certainly had major issues with not receiving emails, and I have only recently given in to pressure to acquire a mobile phone. I hate them with a vengeance. The last thing I want is stupid SMS messages telling me to pay bills.

    BigBear, it's a diverse world. People's circumstances differ. It's really offensive to be constantly telling others who are in a different situation that they are wrong or that everything is great and problems are their fault. It's a very nasty attitude. No wonder our world is in such a mess when people are so selfish that they can't acknowledge someone else's difficulty and support endeavours to improve things.

    Personally, I manage fine with electronic billing, but I know a great many who don't and it isn't laziness. They deserve respect and courteous consideration.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    1:46pm
    Rainey is YET AGAIN personally abusing and writing personal putdowns directed towards another forum member.

    The moderators need to act on Rainey's bad forum behaviour.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    9:03pm
    If you don't have a problem with electronic billing then you have nothing to whinge about. I suggest to redirect your energy and help others have easy and time saving it is.

    29th Jan 2018
    3:06pm
    Yes charge for paper bills or give customers a discount for opting electronic
    Asking to receive paper bills is disgusting in this day and age - so socially irresponsible
    Lookfar
    29th Jan 2018
    8:50pm
    Such harsh words Raphael, for such a tiny bit of paper, are you aware of the incredible power draw down of all the Internet servers etc ?
    Perhaps you could think a bit about that
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    9:30pm
    All the more reason for a bigger discount for electronic bill receivers
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    2:13pm
    I have no problem if people want to get paper bills as long as they pay for the privilege.

    29th Jan 2018
    3:10pm
    What about elderly folk who don't use - or know how to use - computers?
    Anonymous
    29th Jan 2018
    7:02pm
    They can Pay for paper bills
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    7:31am
    Sounds like Raphael is alright, Jack, and nobody else matters.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    2:17pm
    Not too many don't use computers now. I went to a nursing home recently and they had a roster drawn up so there was more people wanting to use them than computers available. Every person I saw also had a tablet as well. I was told that they are worse than teenagers with their devices.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:20am
    I know hundreds who don't use computers, and many who have used them for 20 years or more but are terrified of connecting to the outside world.

    Put a sock in it, BigBear. You are a bore. Too rapped up in yourself to even observe what goes on in the lives of others.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    1:43pm
    Yet another personally abusive post from Rainey towards a forum member who doesn't conform to Rainey's ideology.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    3:37pm
    Only hundreds Rainey then they are a small minority of the millions of us who do embrace the now simpler and time saving parts of our modern world. Last time I was in a nursing home every resident I saw had a tablet busily communicating with the outside world. Are they also terrified of TVs? They are great for a snooze but not much else.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    5:54pm
    I said I know hundreds, BigBear, and therefore there are likely to be millions because I only know a small percentage of the population. But regardless, it is NOT acceptable to wish hurt on a group of disadvantaged just because they MIIGHT be a minority.

    JimD, when you stop being abusive and insulting, you might be entitled to complain about others, And when BigBear stops being nasty and cruel to everyone who isn't as privileged as he is, I'll stop calling him selfish and arrogant. I'm not abusing. I'm just calling it like it is - unlike you, whose insults are based on totally invalid and nasty assumptions.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:15pm
    Rainey's personal abuse and bad behaviour continues.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    7:29pm
    With 4 or 5 mobile phones activated for every person in Australia today and millions without them then millions must have lots of phones. So you are tslking about a wee minority of people many of who have assistance for their life needs.
    Joy B
    29th Jan 2018
    3:13pm
    I must be in the minority. I have all my bills delivered electronically and get concessions on my electricity bill for paying via direct debit fortnightly. Some people have said they were concerned if their computer or internet service was down they run the risk of missing the bill and getting cut-off...we should know when own bills are due so we can always go to a library and check. I chose to use the electronic way many years ago and I am happy with my choice.
    Anonymous
    30th Jan 2018
    6:57am
    Likewise JoyB, but I do sympathize with those who can't cope with the digital world. I know many among the aged struggle.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    30th Jan 2018
    8:13pm
    Agree electronic bills are so much superior to paper ones. Aged people only struggle due to their own laziness and if I can manahe it anyone can. It is not very difficult at all.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    7:23am
    That's another ''I'm all right, Jack'' that shows total contempt for others and no empathy, BigBear. It's just plain NASTY. And disgustingly presumptuous.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    2:08pm
    No it just shows that I'm prepared to take advantage of things in life that make it easier to live.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:18am
    It shows you are an arrogant, self-opinionated egotist who thinks nobody else matters but you.

    I am happy with digital billing also, but I don't go around claiming those who are not should suffer or are somehow at fault for their problems. Learn a little respect for others, BigBear. Your comments are offensive.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    1:53pm
    Yet more personal putdowns and abuse written by Rainey towards another forum member.

    Moderators ---- please act.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    3:10pm
    JimB just brush it under the carpet and have a good belly laugh as that's what the rest of us do.
    patti
    29th Jan 2018
    6:05pm
    I tried switching to internet billing, but my internet service is questionable at times, and I was charged a late fee on a couple of occasions because I never received the bill. I also do not do banking online. So now I insist on a paper copy, and at least I know it has been sent even if it arrives late sometimes. Good news if they stop charging for paper bills. Has it not occurred to them that there are many people, especially elderly, who do not own a computer nor do internet banking. With this, and the banks no longer charging for withdrawals we shall soon be very well off hahaha!
    VeryCaringBigBear
    30th Jan 2018
    8:10pm
    Just switch to electronic bills and direct debit and no worries about bills arriving late or bring paid late. You can always login and get you bill too.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    7:25am
    And be ripped off by unconscionable suppliers who either overcharge and refuse to correct errors or refuse to cancel the direct debit.

    NO NO NO NO NO.

    Direct debit should NEVER be a requirement to avoid unfair fees.

    I love electronic billing, but it's NOT suitable for everyone. Stop being so arrogant, BigBear. Everyone isn't in the same position as you. Have some respect for others.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    9:00am
    I have never had a problem with direct debit and they are very easy to cancel too. Always use a separate account and ask the bank to not allow it to be overdrawn. Then if you have trouble cancelling a direct debit take all the money out of the account. Direct debit is then not honoured. Never had to do this myself but know of others who have.

    Our mail service is terrible and we now have all parcels sent by courier instead of Austpost. Cheaper and they are tracked all the way. Christmas cards for previous Christmas previousarrived in time for kast Christmas. I guess they were hpping we wouldn't notice.

    Email is just so much better and more current. SMS and push notifications are also good.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    10:14am
    BigBear, who pays you to be so arrogant and obnoxious. Surely nobody would just post this self-opinionated invalid GARBAGE dismissing everyone else's opinions and problems just because YOU don't have an issue unless there was some commercial reward. It's quite sick really!

    I don't want to have to drain my bank account to avoid a fraudulent charge, and neither do most other people, and they shouldn't have to.

    Email and SMS work for SOME people. It's not good for everybody. Have some respect for others.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    11:44am
    Rainey all you have to do is report it to your bank as a fraudulent transaction and it will be reversed. I have done this a couple of times myself when wrong transactions have been placed on my account.

    I told one lady that either she reverses it or I will report it as a fraudulent transaction. She told me that she wouldn't and that if I reported it to the bank I was being dishonest. So I told her that I'd rather be dishonest than have her over charge me. Bank reversed the charge and she sent me another bill which I sent to Fair Trading. No more was heard about the matter.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    1:00pm
    Rainey wrote .....

    "BigBear who pays you to be so arrogant and obnoxious?"

    "self-opinionated invalid GARBAGE"

    "quite sick really"

    "Stop being so arrogant BigBear".

    Clearly Rainey needs psychological assistance. Seek help Rainey. You're hurting nobody but yourself with such language.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    2:19pm
    JimD I'm wondering who pays Rainey to tell such porkies.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:16am
    Nobody NREDS to be paid to expose wrongs and lobby for improvements in society, BigBear. It's for the benefit of EVERYBODY.

    The only people who need paying are those who defend a BAD system and WRONGS that hurt others. How much are you and JimD being paid?
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:29am
    Whoops. That should have been ''Nobody NEEDS...''
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    3:02pm
    Good or bad system it doesn't matter to me as it is good for some and bad for others. It's a great system if you learn the rules and plan your retirement. One doesn't go on a trip without knowing where they are going so why retire without knowing where it will take you?
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    5:48pm
    And I don't tell ''porkies'' and I am not paid. I write what I experience and what I believe, BigBear. You and JimD just can't handle reality, apparently.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    7:17pm
    Talk about the kettle calling the pot black.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:17pm
    Rainey's constant personal putdowns directed to forum members continues.

    Moderators need to intervene.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    2nd Feb 2018
    11:01am
    JimD all she needs is a big spade to dig herself into a bigger hole. Definitely a "she" as men wouldn't behave that badly.

    30th Jan 2018
    7:00am
    The problem I see is that there IS a cost to send paper bills, and it WILL be covered one way or another, so if the companies can't charge for paper bills, ALL costs will rise to cover that cost. That said, I have great sympathy for those who can't deal with digital bills. I wish, though, that there was a practical way of testing whether someone CAN receive and pay digitally or not and only charging those who genuinely have no feasible alternative. If you COULD receive bills digitally and save both cost and the environment, you should pay if you demand a paper copy.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    30th Jan 2018
    8:04pm
    Paper bills are a real nuisance and they usually arrive after the due date. Thank goodness for digital bills and direct debts they are a real godsend.

    30th Jan 2018
    7:04am
    The issue the government should look into - but I'll bet it won't - is companies collecting road tolls. They charge a massive fee for a paper bill, but they don't allow you to pay online unless you agree to buy a token or lodge a very large deposit that you might know for a fact won't be used. If you just make a very occasional trip, you used to be able to go online and pay the exact amount of the toll. Now you have to either pay $1 and give them open access to charge an unknown fee to your credit card at some future time, or wait for a paper bill and pay up to 5 times the toll. It's a disgrace.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    30th Jan 2018
    8:07pm
    Got a free tag years ago and just float the account with a small amount which is topped up when it reaches a low balance and I have no worries about laying for tolls anywhere in Australia. Battery recently went flat in tag and they didn't charge me any extra while I waited for it to be replaced. Awesome system with no worries.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    7:22am
    BigBear, I could point to a hundred people who have had similar bad experiences to mine. It is NOT an awesome system. If you examine the way it works, it's a disgusting rip-off. Nobody should have to load an account with more than is required to avoid a massive overcharge on one trip. What about international visitors who will never use our roads again? I have used a toll road twice in 15 years. I do NOT want one cent of my money tied up in some stupid account that I never use, just so some rip-off merchant can make unfair gain.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    9:07am
    International visitors use hire cars which already have toll tags installed so no problem there. Backpackers buy old bangers and never pay for anything anyway so no problem there either. So who are the international visitors who are disadvantaged?

    You can also set up a free online account without a tag and pay an extra photo fee of less than a dollar too.

    So much easier than worrying about paying tolls with paper bills.

    I know how it works and it is an awesome system. Set it up and no worries.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    10:11am
    Set up an online account? NO NO NO WRONG.
    Sorry BigBear, I realise you THINK you know everything, but you don't. There are multiple companies running toll roads, all with different policies. The one I refer to does not allow ANY option other than open access to a credit card, a heavily loaded toll account, or a very costly paper bill.

    Actually another one sends bills for trips that never happened. Even doctored a photo of my vehicle. The only way I beat their fraud was because I had a receipt that proved I was filling with fuel at service station 400 km away at the exact time they claimed (and produced a doctored photograph to prove) I was on was travelling on their toll road. And I had testimony from a restaurant waiter who served me lunch 400km away less than 30 minutes after the time they claimed.

    Can you be a little less arrogant please?

    There IS a problem, and claiming superiority and trying to deny it doesn't help anything get resolved. No wonder this country is in such a mess when arrogant self-opinionated people just dismiss issues that don't hurt them personally.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    11:35am
    What a lot of rubbish? Their photos are time date stamped so if they did doctor a photo of your car it is fraud and should have been reported to the police. If you didn't then you have only yourself to blame.

    I had one small problem and it was promptly fixed.

    My toll account has a very low balance amount with a free etag. If I use another car I just add the rego to my toll account and delete it when I no longer use the car.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    4:30pm
    Wow Rainey - resorting to telling fibs
    New low for you
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:14am
    I did report to police, BigBear. And police verified where I really was at the time. And yes it was fraud.

    Raphael, you have no grounds for that nasty and invalid accusation, You are showing your gross ignorance and arrogance, again. A new low for you, actually.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:28am
    BTW. BigBear, police accepted the company's obviously dishonest claim that it was a ''computer malfunction''. Not possible, of course, but dollars talk don't they?
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    10:18am
    It got fixed so what is your problem?
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    5:46pm
    That it happened and it caused me stress and cost many hours and phone calls to resolve. And others may not be lucky enough to have evidence to prove the fraud. If people don't speak out, things don't get fixed. Why are you always so insistent on trying to claim that everything is wonderful and anyone who has a problem is at fault?
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    7:18pm
    At keast 9 out of 10 people are at fault and only a wee minority are not.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    7:51am
    You personally have verified that, have you BigBear. No, just another wild and arrogant assumption! And what does it matter? Our society deems that even ONE person is entitled to protection against crime. And fraudulent abuse of the right to manage toll road charging is crime. And assisting crime - which you do by putting people down for exposing it - is being an accessory, and that is also a crime.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    2nd Feb 2018
    8:19am
    Well for one thing Rainey I for one don't believe your story about your so called road toll fraud. Big companies would be very stupid indeed to do such things. Yes I have heard of number plates being stolen and I know of one person who had their plates stolen and only found out when they got pulled up for no plates. Police were very good and told them they could drive to nearest registry and get new plates. After getting fines and tolls they realised they were stolen over 3 months ago. All fines and tolls were written off due to their previous good driving record etc. They didn't have to prove they were somewhere else etc.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    11:28am
    Rainey continues to use personally abusive language against another forum member who does not conform to "Rainey's" ideology/opinions.

    Rainey's bad, rude behaviour is in breach of forum terms and conditions.

    Rainey is a constant, repeat offender.

    Moderators, please act.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    7:31pm
    JimD can't read, but is upset at having his huge long defamatory attack on me deleted.

    Are you now BigBear's personal defender, JimD? You and he are the abusers here, not me.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    9:25pm
    Moderators, Rainey has shown by his "own" words, day after day, week after week, that he is a personal abuser on this forum, with constant putdowns of a personal nature directed towards others on this forum who don't agree with him.

    Don't take my word for it, read his posts, They speak for themselves.

    Rainey is constantly in flagrant violation of the behaviour terms and conditions of this forum, and does it on a daily basis.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    3rd Feb 2018
    8:28am
    Rainey I am big enough and wise enough to fight my own battles without any assistance.
    Anonymous
    3rd Feb 2018
    3:11pm
    Apparently JimD doesn't think so, BigBear. But then neither does he understand what constitutes ''personal abuse'', nor does he understand defamation law. He seems to be sick with some sort of personal grudge that he can't shake, and completely incapable of respecting other people's right to an opinion, let alone of assessing facts objectively. But then, he's in good company, sadly.
    Anonymous
    4th Feb 2018
    11:28am
    Another post from Rainey in flagrant breach of forum terms and conditions. Rainey personalises and attacks people who don't agree with "him" .... that's a breach of forum terms and conditions from Rainey.

    Moderators, take note.
    Anonymous
    4th Feb 2018
    6:05pm
    JimD, you appear to have a personal grudge. I don't know why, but these rants are getting very boring.

    I'm not breaching any forum conditions. I said nothing abusive. You do seem to be sick. Sorry, but that's how you appear. Go study law before you pretend to be an expert, because you are getting it wrong. But then, you clearly don't understand law because what you posted was clearly extremely defamatory (hence the reason it was removed!).
    Anonymous
    4th Feb 2018
    7:30pm
    Many of Rainey's posts have been removed for breaching forum terms and conditions.

    Rainey is in denial of his bad forum behaviour, and will obviously never change.
    Lookfar
    31st Jan 2018
    9:17am
    Big Bear, we heard your point of view the first time, this is a forum to discuss, not an argument you have to win by saying virtually the same thing again and again, - to truly understand something, you need to be able to argue the contrary point of view to your own. To argue the contrary point of view, you have to understand it. Only then have you achieved human to human conversation.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    10:19am
    Don't you get tired of the self-opinionated ''I'm alright, Jack, so bugger you'' posts?

    I am fine with electronic billing too, but I'm not either arrogant, presumptuous or nasty enough to suggest that because I like it everyone should. It's problematical for some, and NOT due to any fault on their part.

    I hate seeing people dismiss other people's problems as irrelevant or somehow the fault of the person complaining. I suspect this is a lot of what's wrong with the world today - that people just ASSUME that if they don't have a problem, nobody has a right to complain. How can anything be improved if this mentality prevails.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    11:39am
    Many problems today would not exist if people weren't so lax and stupid about things. I see the attitude every where now where people just don't care and whinge like hell when they stuff up. No one seems to want to take responsibility for their own actions and look for someone else to blame.
    Anonymous
    31st Jan 2018
    4:28pm
    It is a scientific fact that only people with of an IQ of 83 or lower cant learn to use computers
    That's 10% of the population or thereabouts
    The money these people save by not having a PC can be used to pay for the paper bills they request
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    4:40pm
    None if any of these people would live on their own either so someone with more intelligence would be looking after them.

    You can download paper bills so no excuse for even getting them in the mail.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:12am
    The arrogance! Sickening!

    I wish you two could be forced to walk in the shoes of some who have had less advantages in life for a few years and find out just how hard life is for some, and why.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    10:17am
    Rainey I need very little so it would not be a problem to me.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    1:50pm
    Rainey posts a personally abusive post AGAIN, directed against other forum members.

    Moderators, can you please do something about Rainey's constant bad personal behaviour on this forum?
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    5:42pm
    I wasn't talking about money, BigBear. Disadvantage comes in all forms - including health, mental health, and learning capacity. You are so heartless and cruel.

    JimD, I am not being abusive at all. I'm merely remarking that arrogance is offensive. But goodness, who are you to talk. You abuse me at every opportunity and your insults are never-ending.
    Anonymous
    1st Feb 2018
    7:21pm
    Rainey has just directed 6 words of personal abuse directly towards a forum member at the end of the 1st paragraph.

    Moderators .... please act.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    7:22pm
    Rainey if I had any of those problems I would have left this mortal world long ago. I am not selfish enough to stay around to burden anyone.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    7:48am
    I can't think of anything more selfish than suggesting that someone with less than perfect capacity in all areas shouldn't be allowed quality of life, BigBear. But then, I think it was you who, signing as OG, said my special needs grandson shouldn't be allowed to live - and then claimed you had a special needs child of your own.

    Just because someone has reduced health or mental capacity doesn't make them a burden, but it might restrict their capacity to operate a computer, or to cope with the digital world. It might restrict their capacity to understand finance well enough to achieve high returns on their savings, or to manipulate around complex Centrelink rules. Yet you seem to think anyone who can't do all of those things should not live in this world. It's not a utopia you envisage, BigBear, but a PURE HELL full of vile selfish pigs who haven't a shred of respect or decency.

    I would much rather live in a world filled with real, caring, feeling people who understand foibles and struggles and have the capacity to love, forgive and care.

    JimD, where are the SIX words? You can't count! ''Heartless'' and ''cruel'' are TWO words. No wonder you argue with me about pension rules! And I wan't being ''personally abusive''. I was commenting on the way BigBear portrays himself with his slights against everyone who struggles in any way.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    8:01am
    Stephen Hawking suffered a serious disability that challenged his competency to do many things but he contributed a great deal to the world.

    People with poor health, disabilities, reduced mental capacity, or reduced intelligence are not BURDENS, OG. They contribute to society in a vast number of positive ways. Our society legislates that they must be treated with respect and their special needs accommodated as far as possible. If ramps are legally required for the crippled and special guides for the blind, then why shouldn't those who are challenged by the fast progress of the digital world be accommodated with paper bills? It's a small ask, but respectful people wouldn't hesitate to agree their need should be accommodated and they should NOT suffer denigration.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    2nd Feb 2018
    8:21am
    Who is OG?
    VeryCaringBigBear
    2nd Feb 2018
    8:28am
    If I was Stephen Hawking I would have departed this mortal world long ago. Personally I think who he does in a lot of rubbish that does nothing for society at all.

    I don't have a problem with people who live in the past and refuse to live in the digital world but they should not burden everyone else. People with old bank books are a good example. It is so annoying to be lined up in a bank behind a person getting their bank book updated by a teller. They even refuse to have paper statements given to them instead. These people are very selfish has they waste other people's precious time.
    Anonymous
    2nd Feb 2018
    7:29pm
    No BigBear. It's you who is selfish. You want the whole world to operate on YOUR terms. And now, having confessed to manipulating dishonestly to get a pension despite being wealthy, and admitting to travelling, you ask for charity.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    2nd Feb 2018
    8:10pm
    No Rainey I operate on the rules of the world and do things better than most people within those rules. I don't make the rules I just use the rules. I didn't do anything dishonestly to get the pension I just used the rules so both me and my family get the best deal I could. I could see no benefit hanging onto assets I didn't need when others in my family could have their lives changed for the better having them instead. If that is being selfish then what are those who hang onto their assets while their family suffers just to keep their brown points.
    Anonymous
    3rd Feb 2018
    3:07pm
    It IS dishonest and unethical to give money away and then claim a pension, BigBear. Sure, the rules might allow it, but the intention is not that people who have no need of a pension should abuse the system to cash in and benefit themselves and their family unfairly.
    It's wrong, and nothing you say can justify it or make it right.

    You condemn disadvantaged people for remaining unemployed and on benefits because you WRONGLY ASSUME they could get a job if they tried harder, or you unjustly accuse them of taking drugs when you know nothing about them, yet you openly abuse a loophole in a system to claim benefit that you neither need nor have moral right to.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    3rd Feb 2018
    4:22pm
    The only reason you think what I have done is unethical and dishonest is that you didn't do the same yourself. I'll repeat there is nothing wrong, unethical, and particularly dishonest in what I did so that I got the OAP. Anyone can do with I did if they plan for their retirement.
    Anonymous
    4th Feb 2018
    5:59pm
    Yes of course anyone can steal money intended for the needy. Of course anyone can be immoral and unethical and selfish and greedy. No, I didn't do the same myself. Because I've been needy. I suffered GENUINE hardship and serious disadvantage, and I know how hard it is, and how desperately we need to allocate more to those in real need. But we can't, because of the greed and selfishness of people who manipulate to get benefits they neither need not have any moral right to. I am proud to be self-supporting, and I'll proudly stay that way for as long as I am able.
    Two Cents
    31st Jan 2018
    3:28pm
    My hubby signed up Vodafone sim contract - gets charged $2.50 every month for the paper bill. So the contract is not $22.00 per month but $27.00 per month.
    Dodo charges us $2.50 for the paper bill and an additional $2.50 for every payment we make via BPAY - it all adds up... he's not tech savvy so we're sort of stuck or we'll have to cancel our contracts. He's also signed up for a Lowes "Reward" card - always pays cash but received a bill for an annual card fee ..another $10!!!
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    3:39pm
    There are 2 Lowes cards one that cost $10 and one that costs nothing. I had the one and when they said it would cost $10 I asked them to cancel it.

    I just use ALDI prepaid and it's cost me about $15 once every 12 months. I would not have any of those phone contracts myself as they are nothing but scams.
    johnp
    1st Feb 2018
    2:03pm
    sorry, whats a Lowes card ??
    VeryCaringBigBear
    1st Feb 2018
    9:05pm
    Loyalty cards for Lowe's stores.
    Two Cents
    31st Jan 2018
    3:45pm
    Thank you Big Bear - will have a look at this and switch!!
    VeryCaringBigBear
    31st Jan 2018
    3:55pm
    I liked the old Lowes system better than the new one.
    SKRAPI
    1st Feb 2018
    10:48pm
    I like 2 receive hard copy bills ,I can mark them as paid . & it's a receipt of payment 4 me .The digital record isn't reliable , Systems crash, Computers fail etc, Then what have U ?? Nothing . Those who charge for accounts or statements R greedy.& as said arrogant as R the banks who have us queue to withdraw our own money which they R using 2 make a mint & also charge us to receive the same .
    same. They make billions in profits.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    2nd Feb 2018
    8:30am
    I doubt if I go into a bank even once a year now and it is certainly not to deposit or withdraw money.
    Anonymous
    6th Feb 2018
    1:02pm
    They expect you to print the bills out yourself at your expense to have hard copies. Know people who do this but that costs me money so I stick to paper bills which I pay at the post office. Some people like everything electronic but then everyone knows your business as well. Do not mind the Govt knowing where I travel to but everyone else as well so many places I pay cash.

    2nd Feb 2018
    7:40pm
    BigBear's constant rants suggest he personally is suffering because some people want paper bills. Or is he scared he'll pay one cent more per quarter if companies stop charging for paper bills? I can't believe anyone could be so eager to see others suffer hurt that they would respond over and over and over and over and over denying the simple reality that SOME people have valid reasons for wanting paper.
    VeryCaringBigBear
    2nd Feb 2018
    8:03pm
    Paper bills will be free but those who embrace technology we get a better deal ie discount. That how most companies now operate so nothing will change. I get better interest rates for online accounts, direct debits, payment on time, no interest and frequent flyers points for using a credit card, free travel insurance with my credit cards, no fees on my bank accounts and many other benefits.
    johnp
    5th Feb 2018
    11:17am
    I realise this is bit off topic but its still related to many comments in this forum
    http://www.moneymanagement.com.au/news/superannuation/govt-warned-against-budget-super-tax-tinkering?

    6th Feb 2018
    9:18am
    ISomeone is posting under my user name. 've had a response from YLC staff. It seems someone has registered themselves with my user name. They say it's ''coincidence'', but it certainly is NOT. And I'm fairly sure I know who it is. These fraudulent posts have only just started, and the person making them is trying very hard to make me look as bad as he possibly can.

    Something SERIOUSLY wrong when someone can register the same name as another member! No responsible developer sets a community up that way. They always tell you the name is in use and you have to choose another.

    Anyway, I guess I have to change my user name. Clearly the disgusting person doing this is determined to try to force me to leave the community. Won't happen. But any further posts from ''Rainey'' are NOT MINE AND NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. Most likely JimD, I'm guessing, given his behaviour to date.
    Priscilla
    7th Feb 2018
    12:02pm
    I receive my Iprimus Internet bill via email but they still charge me extra to BPay and an extra cost if paid at a post office. These two extra charges appear on my bill each month and I don't even get a paper bill! I have taken this up with them to no avail.
    Priscilla
    7th Feb 2018
    12:02pm
    I receive my Iprimus Internet bill via email but they still charge me extra to BPay and an extra cost if paid at a post office. These two extra charges appear on my bill each month and I don't even get a paper bill! I have taken this up with them to no avail.
    johnp
    7th Feb 2018
    1:32pm
    hi Priscilla, just tell them you are going to a different internet provider. if they dont change then just do it !
    Priscilla
    7th Feb 2018
    12:05pm
    Digital billing has nothing to do with the environment, athough that is what they tell you. It is all about cutting the number of staff. Together with jobs that have been sent offshore these processes are costing thousands of jobs and it will only get worse with AI.
    sunshine
    8th Feb 2018
    1:07pm
    nO CHARGE FOR paper bills. There should be a paper for contracts that bear our signatures so companies cant change the arrangements to suit themselves later on. eg. a phone contract can be and is altered without the customer being aware and ends up the Customer paying much more.
    Fair Go
    3rd Mar 2018
    3:25pm
    Yes, I pay bills on line but one provider, you guessed it, Telstra, still sends me a paper bill 2 weeks after receiving the emailed one. Have been into Telstra shop not once but twice, to have the paper bill stopped, still receiving it. So what does one do with stupidity like this?
    retiredplayboy
    26th Jul 2018
    2:23pm
    There has always been a cost to any business for processing it's income. Even cash payments needed to be banked and a till has to be maintained. This cost is probably greater than the automated sytems of electric processing. Bills sent have always been part of those included overheads. It is, or should be built into overheads. No distiction needs to be made whether it is electronic or paper, certainly no individual accounting charges are justified in any way. Discounts for electronic debits, or charges for paper bills are just extortion.


    Tags: money, bills, utilities,