Survey reveals how much truth matters to voters

How many lies would it take before a voter lost trust in a politician?

Survey reveals how much truth matters to voters

How many lies can a politician tell before Australians lose faith in his or her ability to do their job? Does the truth matter to voters?

In a survey conducted by Australian and US psychologists, Does truth matter to voters? The effects of correcting political misinformation in an Australian sample, 370 Australians were asked how many lies it would take before a voter lost trust in a politician.

In the US, which is believed to be in an era of ‘post-truth’ politics, it seems that voters will back their candidates no matter how much they mislead and lie to their constituents. Aussie voters, however, say the facts actually matter to them.

Here, voters will admit to being duped if they discover they’ve been lied to and will even change their vote if a politician is repeatedly found guilty of lying or not following through on campaign promises, according to the survey.

The paper, published in Royal Society Open Science, revealed analysis of Australians’ responses to certain claims made by former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull and current Opposition Leader Bill Shorten.

Some of the claims were true, others were lies. When the survey participants were shown fact-checks of those statements, the corrections “strongly reduced” belief in the “myths” disseminated by both parties, meaning voters were willing to accept that they had been duped.

The survey also showed that, in Australia, once politicians were caught out lying around four times, support for them declined.

A follow-up study in the US showed that even when politicians lied up to 80 per cent of the time, support for them barely wavered.

According to RMIT ABC Fact Check chief academic investigator Gordon Farrer, this is where Australia's compulsory voting system may be better than the voluntary system in the US.

“The trick [in the US] is to get people out to vote and, to do that, people often say wild and misleading things,” said Mr Farrer in a Fairfax article.

He also said that Australian politicians may often “cherry-pick” facts to spin their arguments and policy benefits, but the most successful pollies “pitched to the middle”.

The paper raised the question about the importance of fact checking politicians, with findings showing that many voters came to a decision based on “emotion and gut feeling” rather the facts. Mr Farrer highlighted the importance of ensuring that lies and false claims were kept out of the political sphere.

“The best thing you can do to deal with the issue of fake news, misinformation, alternative facts, post-truth, all that sort of stuff, is not to try to correct misinformation after it's out in the public,” he said.

“It's to stop it from getting out there in the first place but, also, to give people the tools to deal with that information.”

In the survey, Australians were found to be more politically discerning than their US counterparts; however, respondents were unable to avoid fact-checks.

“In reality, some people may not encounter any fact-checks at all,” the paper reads.

And this is what most worries Mr Farrer, who believes that without such fact-checking, voters will fall back to their default positions.

“Politics is in danger of breaking down if people aren't able to or willing to make determinations based on factual information,” Mr Farrer said.

“We don't know what is true any more and it is going to get harder and harder.”

How many lies will you weather before you lose faith in a politician? Or are you just used to political misinformation and untruths?

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    COMMENTS

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    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    10:18am
    No great surprise.
    I read the comments from rusted on LNP supporters on this website all the time. No amount of lies and deceit will ever dissuade theses people from voting for their 'football team'. And then there are uncle Rupert and uncle Kerry amongst others running their political propaganda rags to get THEIR party back in as well.
    I feel sorry for voters who refuse to get on the fence and look both ways as there are times when you have to abandon your own prejudices for the good of all of us. Unfortunately some voters are incapable of that sort of logic so what hope do we have.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    10:20am
    You must feel well and truly sorry for yourself Mick
    I feel sorry for you too
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    10:38am
    A comment from the village idiot.
    The one thing worse than a rusted on is a troll. Useless.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    11:23am
    I posted this on Friday,MICK, as an example of those who will lie to give an edge to the party that they love. You will recognise the words as they are all from your posts last week.Because of the number of lies, I have to ask if you are in fact a politician.

    "Ok doubters....tell me what will happen if the current crooks in suits are put back in? Retirement age up to 70. Family home in the assets test. Further restrictions on democracy and individual freedom. Company tax cuts brought in more tax for the rest of us.

    Oh yes...they'll sell off the ABC if put back in

    Your alternative is to vote LNP and then wonder what has happened to the ABC, why you have to drop dead on the job, why the family home has suddenly been packaged into the assets test and why your taxes are going through the roof. Its not rocket science. Its the LNP and its big business masters at work

    So you are ignoring the reality that this government is putting the retirement age up to 70? The highest in the world.
    And comes comes the family home into the assets test. They're raring to go and you keep getting this leaked to the media

    I agree with your sentiments but I have to ask you what you will do if this lot were re-elected? First thing more huge tax cuts for the rich. Then individuals in court being jailed with 'hurting the nation' legislation when they oppose the regime. Then citizens tracked wherever they go. And of course the family home in the assets test.....I mean they need pension money to hand to the wealthy."
    jackie
    14th Jan 2019
    12:22pm
    MICK ....I have never accepted the LNP lies and never will....They all are drowning in corruption and lies...Their actions continually prove this. Anyone that chooses to believe them is a fool or a corrupt rich person.
    GeorgeM
    14th Jan 2019
    2:09pm
    OM, this article is not about MICK, it is about our politicians. I agree both sides are liars. But Abbott takes the cake with his broken promises - as per SMH article "On the eve of the 2013 federal election Tony Abbott promised no cuts to education, health, or the ABC and SBS, and no changes to pensions.", yet he broke EVERY promise. The ABC Fact Check further revealed that when he was in power, "Out of the 34 of Mr Abbott's claims that were tested, Fact Check determined 11 of them (32.25 per cent) to be in the red, or negative verdicts." Because he deliberately broke promises in spite of having a large majority there was NO excuse (unlike Gillard who was hostage to the Greens).

    He is STILL THERE in parliament - have voters in his electorate no active brain cells?

    We badly need a system to RECALL all lying politicians, those who break promises, and those who don't do their job of representing the people's wishes.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    3:10pm
    You're right GeorgeM, this article is not about MICK, it's about lying. I have merely posted what MICK has written and I claim that they are lies. I note that you have omitted Labor's lies about Medicare, penalty rates, cuts to schools, cuts to hospitals, cuts to pensions and TAFE, just to name a few. Neither side can claim the moral high ground but it's posts such as yours and MICK's that are totally misleading by presenting just one side.
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    3:20pm
    Old Man your reply to Mick does not make any sense, are you agreeing with him?.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    3:29pm
    No, Misty, my post has what he said last week. He keeps accusing only the other side for telling lies so I've just reminded him that, in my opinion, he tells lies as well.
    GeorgeM
    14th Jan 2019
    4:40pm
    OM, you are clearly carried away with your own bias to suggest I am misleading, as I did say "I agree BOTH SIDES ARE LIARS. But Abbott takes the cake.....". In that context, I don't have to list Labor's lies as well, as most of those you mentioned were sales pitches (which are generally misleading anyway, as everyone knows) or opinions, but are not as serious as doing exactly the opposite of what you promised once you are IN GOVT - as Abbott did, which MUST be made a sackable offence - maybe by the Governor General.

    This website is full of Liberal vs Labor opinions, which makes the quality of these discussions very poor, with many good comments lost in this mess.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    4:46pm
    Lying is what you do OM. Now that the election is approaching you are claiming that the canary in the coal mine is the problem.
    I DO NOT LIE INTENTIONALLY. It is not within me. Occasionally I may get it wrong but I think I am on the money here.

    My call AS ALWAYS is that we need to shred the current government, put Labor in and then shred Labor in favour of Independents if it does poorly or betrays us. The reality though is that betrayal is in the genes of the current government and breeding it out will be almost impossible.

    Please talk to me again when all of the rats controlling your government are gone and you have half decent pollies in their place. Until then kindly buggar off with your government funded posts as you are becoming more and more offensive the closer we get to the election. A sign of imminent defeat!
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    4:59pm
    Oh well done MICK. "I DO NOT LIE INTENTIONALLY" is a very poor excuse for not doing your research and getting carried away with your abusive comments. Whether intentional or accidental, a lie is still a lie. If pointing out the truth is offensive to you then so be it.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:44pm
    More BS from a troll!
    I do my research but very occasionally get it wrong. So you come on in and turn it into I always get it wrong. But what else would I expect from an LNP funded poster.
    maxchugg
    15th Jan 2019
    10:13am
    What a laugh, Mick, of all people, calling someone else a troll!. By the rules of Mick, anyone who supports any party other than Labor is a troll, those who support the LIbs, never.

    I don't have a "football team" mentality with regard to politicians. I well remember "Honest" John Howard who earned his nickname by promising tax cuts before his election, then gave tax increases upon election. He was also the author of the "non-core promise." I agreed with a Labor voting friend who said that she called John Howard "Honest John" for the same reason that she called red headed men "Bluey."

    I also remember the mob of ratbags who surrounded Gough Whitlam, nor have I forgotten the matters already raised by others about such things as the Mediscare campaign, and I don't consider that either Rudd or Gillard were outstanding Prime Ministers. How a Labor supporter became a Liberal Prime Minister is something I will never understand.

    Australians are entitled to be outraged by Joe Hockey calling for the age of retirement to be raised to 70, then retiring at age 50 with full parliamentary pension entitlements, indexed for life. But on the other side, there was Bill Hayden, who typically treated the office of Governor-General with contempt until it was offered to him!

    Mick has a typical approach when faced with questions he can't answer, he always resorts to personal abuse which I have experienced in the past and note is currently applied to Lethario who is called a "village Idiot" and Old Man a troll whose arguments are dismissed out of hand as BS, even though the comments which caused the angst are justified by the evidence which exists within the thread.

    14th Jan 2019
    10:19am
    Labor pollies have told enough lies to make them totally untrustworthy . Not to mention they are totally incompetent and will ruin the country
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    10:39am
    Ha ha ha. You crack me up with your one liner BS. Why bother as nobody on this website believes any of that given the past 6 years of mismanagement and political corruption.
    KSS
    14th Jan 2019
    1:15pm
    Remember 'mediscare' MICK? or 'No carbon tax'?

    I'd say you were 'economical with the truth' as far as your oft expressed opinions of the current government are concerned and yet curiously amnesiac with regard to the ALP.
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    3:23pm
    Ok KSS and what ab out energy prices will fall after the Carbon Tax was abolished, BS, still waiting all these years later.
    HarrysOpinion
    14th Jan 2019
    3:54pm
    Your stupid Coalition mates are going to lose big time Lothario. Voter's vengeance for the Tone's lies and intimidation, the instability caused by stupid wankers in the National party and the mindless ultra-right wing in the Liberal party who couldn't run a chook raffle let alone a betrayal of one of its own.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    4:48pm
    KSS - yes I do remember Mediscare KSS. I also remember a week before that GetUp being hacked. Nothing to do with your employer though?
    The hypocrisy of your post must be obvious.
    Anonymous
    15th Jan 2019
    7:39am
    And what about Labor lies about franking credits. "They are welfare." 'They are a tax and people shouldn't pay double tax" but oh, wait, 'if you don't earn enough to pay tax, they are NOT a tax so you can't get it back'.

    And then there's the real doozy of them all. "Some people are getting $25 million in cash franking credit refunds". Yep, lots of us retirees have hundreds of millions invested in shares and are ignoring the Transfer Balance Cap law and getting away with it, Short-on-brains!


    Trouble is, Labor lies more convincingly, and relies on broad ignorance in the population. I mean, how many even know what franking credits actually are?


    Of course there's also that one big "who we are'' lie. 'The party for ordinary Australians''. Sure!


    Sadly, Labor voters either swallow or ignore the lies, but rave and rant about the LNP lies, which are really no worse, but just not as cleverly masked.

    ALL our politicians lie all the time. If we stopped voting for liars, we'd all be turning in blank ballot papers.
    KSS
    15th Jan 2019
    8:06am
    Right so Labor lies are actually internet 'hacks' and not 'lies' at all! Seriously MICK you have lost the plot!
    ex PS
    15th Jan 2019
    8:24am
    Tell me Lothario, how many lies does a politician have to tell to become so untrustworthy that they should not be voted for?
    It should be a simple case of counting them up and deciding which party has told more or less lies.
    Really simplifies the voting process, and will put the right government in place. The same goes for incompetent governments, you may have dug a hole for yourself and the party you support here.
    Dutton is so incompetent, he can't even interpret and implement his own anti terrorist laws.
    Couldabeen
    15th Jan 2019
    11:13pm
    Misty, it is acknowledged that the wholesale price of energy supplies did in fact go down by around 9 to 10% after the "Carbon Tax" was repealed. Many retailers did suddenly start to include separate components in the Bills that were previously not obvious.
    Misty
    16th Jan 2019
    12:26am
    Maybe Couldabeen but ours never did, so maybe not all energy companies did include the separate components you write about.
    OnlyDaughter
    14th Jan 2019
    11:00am
    I believe very little of what any politician says. They twist facts, tell outright lies, avoid/refuse answering questions and place their “party” ideology before the welfare of Australia. They sicken me. I think quite a number of politicians arrive in Parliament with the highest of ideals but quickly discover that they have to conform to the system which eventually evolves into them becoming part of the problem, but not the cause.
    Jim
    14th Jan 2019
    11:52am
    The smartest comment I have seen on here for a while, and ones I completely agree with, but you will get the diehards from both sides who will never agree, you see their comments on here regularly, some even pretending that they support something different, while singing the praises of their nominated party.

    14th Jan 2019
    11:13am
    We can accept that a politician will lie, it's a part of their job, but the lies that hit us in the back pocket are the ones that will cause us to arc up. I won't go into who said what as it will only start an avalanche of accusations but if one thinks back about the lies that have caused grief, it is sure to be the ones that cost the average voter money. We can decide at election time whether a policy is good or not but to lie at election time and then decide to do the opposite mainly angers voters.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    4:50pm
    Errr...... Abbott throws all promises in the bin and commences to run up meg debt and Turnbull gives the wealthy huge tax cuts whilst money is sucked out of all manner of utilities and institutions we all need to fund it?
    You must be a psychiatrist or something OM as your deceit is without equal. Smooth like chocolate and brutal like cyanide.
    Anonymous
    15th Jan 2019
    1:25pm
    And Short-on doesn't lie about his intention to steal from retirees, but just lies to justify his gross unfairness and discrimination and his illogical and economically harmful attack.
    Jim
    14th Jan 2019
    11:44am
    I think you miss the point Mick, the article is aimed at people like yourself, who only ever see one side of an argument, most other people recognise the simple fact, all politicians lie, and quite a lot of people on this site repeat the lies of our politicians as if they had some divine way of detecting the truth, if a politicians lips are moving then the odds grow significantly that they are lying. I guess the trick is to try and do your own research, which is not impossible but is extremely difficult, you can look to the mainstream media which those on the left complain are so right wing that you can’t believe anything they print, or your source might be the left wing media which is equally biased towards Labor, so where do you go to to get a completely unbiased source of information, personally I use the ABC radio which tends to be a little less biased than most other media sources, but their job is to keep a check on the government that’s in power so can often seem to be anti government, this applies no matter which side is in office. Fortunately most media sources are anti Greens so K guess we have to be thank full for small mercies.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    12:03pm
    I don't agree, Jim, that the ABC's job is to "keep a check on the government that is in power". Their charter doesn't include anything about governments. You may wish to check their charter in the link provided.

    https://about.abc.net.au/how-the-abc-is-run/what-guides-us/legislative-framework/
    Jim
    14th Jan 2019
    12:26pm
    I am talking about what they do, not what their charter is, I don’t have a problem with how they have operated for the last 50 years or so that I have been listening to them, generally speaking they have been impartial on many topics, some of their reporters might seem biased one way or another and they do seem at times to be more left than right that might just be the perception of the listener. We can’t always take everything so literally my comments relate to how I see they operate others might have a different perception.
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    3:28pm
    I watch a lot of SKY NEWS and I have noticed lately that a lot of their presenters have gone over to the ABC, I would love to know why as I find SKY very very biased towards the right but then when you consider who their boss is I suppose that is understandable.
    Jim
    14th Jan 2019
    3:57pm
    I don’t watch sky news, I have never subscribed to pay tv, but I have noticed that sky news is on one of the free to air channels now, still don’t watch it. As for biased reporting I have to disagree, I find most reporters on most channels are left leaning, especially channel 7 and 10, I don’t watch channel 9 so maybe they are the right wing you refer to. My preference is still ABC radio.
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    4:36pm
    No Jim, you should watch Sky News and you will see what I mean, Andrew Bolt, Paul Murray, Bronwyn Bishop, Gary Hargreaves, Rowan Dean, Campbell Newman just to name a few, I cannot find one Labor person having a time slot on Sky, they do come on as guests occasionally but that is all.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    4:38pm
    That’s probably because they have nothing intelligent to say Misty
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    4:54pm
    No, Lothario, it's because their Rightard audience are too dumb to understand what the Labor people would have to say.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    4:57pm
    I'll take a serve if needed Jim but you have not scrutinised the performance of Labor vs the performance of the LNP thereafter.
    Gillard told one big lie. Abbott told dozens. Rolled off the tongue like water off a duck's back.
    Then look at debt. Labor $158 billion. LNP...well the debt clock now sits at $676 billion.
    Then where our money went. Labor spent during the GFC years. The LNP spent in improving times. Labor gave us the NBN and Turnbull then butchered it whilst paying more than the original price. Much more....
    The media? Look at,

    https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/8vgokb/australia_media_bias_chart/

    Look at the chart and then lets talk about the ABC.
    Jim
    14th Jan 2019
    5:02pm
    Based on your comments I can’t understand why you would watch sky news at all never mind watch a lot of it, are the reporters better on sky or is there another reason you watch it, anyway I will stick to ABC radio for my credible news, I did watch the project once or twice now there is a biased show for you, if they were any more left they would have to wear red shirts, but some people call that entertainment, so I guess it’s not news.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    5:03pm
    MICK, I have pointed out your untruth about the debt before and it pains me to do it time after time. You appear to be a slow learner. Yes, Morrison increased the ceiling of future debt to $600B to allow for future possible debts but that is not the figure that is owed. The figure owed by government as at July this year is $341.0B.

    To point out another of your untruths, Labor left a debt as at September 2013 of $174.577B so the Coalition has not doubled the debt, close but no cigar. I might also point out that if you include the balance that Labor took over of $24.2B in credit, Labor spent $198.777B whilst in office. Your masters who subscribe to the theory that if you tell a lie often enough that it becomes the truth would be proud of you.

    Please don't slip into your predictable union bully boy mode and just refute my figures if you can. If you can't refute the figures then it would be expected that you will refrain from telling the untruth about Australia's debt.
    Here you are MICK:

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    5:04pm
    Same old B/S from Mick
    Labor left the coalition $biillions in annual commitments
    Had it not been for LNP economic management , out next would now be $1 Trillion
    Instead it’s only $376 billion
    Labor left is $176 billion in Brent and an annual budget deficit of $45 billion and interest payments of $12 billion per annum

    Now after 6 years we have trimmed the blowout by $600 billion and will return a surplus in 2021 with all of labor debt wiped out by 2030
    That’s only if we don’t let labor back in
    Jim
    14th Jan 2019
    5:20pm
    Well as usual you make lots of assumptions, mostly inaccurate ones, we have discussed on this forum many times the differences between the debt now and the debt Labor left, much of the debt now is as a consequence of Labor policies when they were in power, and much of the debt is based on forward estimates, the LNP is now claiming that we will be debt free sooner than expected, I for one don’t believe them, the NBN disaster was another one of Labor policies that the LNP had to try to rescue but even with downgrading the system it is still going to cost 3-4 more than Labor budgeted for, I have heard all the excuses from the defenders of the original system, strangely the Labor party are fairly quiet on this because even they know it wasn’t possible to put a decent system in on the original budget. There lies the difference between us, I recognise the lies of the LNP but I also recognise the deceit of the Labor party and in particular Bill Shorten. If you trawl the Internet enough you can always find something to support any argument, it’s normal to choose something that supports a particular argument, it doesn’t mean it’s true or indeed accurate.
    Jim
    14th Jan 2019
    5:30pm
    Had a quick look at your link Mick, you do realise that reddit is an extreme left wing media source, but you must have known that!
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:46pm
    Was not on that one Jim. Thanks for pointing it out. Is the information wrong though?

    OM - I gleaned to debt from the link. Please tell me why it is wrong rather than play the shell game.
    Jim
    14th Jan 2019
    7:05pm
    What do you mean you were not on that site, your link starts with www.reddit, it’s an American media organisation that operates all over the world, it’s notoriously left wing, I don’t know if the information was correct because I don’t believe anything on extreme sites, it doesn’t matter whether they are extreme left or right, they put statistics up for gullible people in an attempt for them to justify their stance, it doesn’t mean they are true or credible.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    9:02pm
    I was saying I DID NOT NOW Jim.
    You've made an accusation but I could not find any corroboration for your claim. You may want to read the following article:

    https://qz.com/1083444/analysis-of-500-million-reddit-comments-shows-how-the-alt-right-made-the-alt-left-a-thing/

    Please tell me about reddit being an "extreme left wing" organisation. Whilst some of the jargon in the article is American the gist from where I stopped was that the right is engineering responses from the left and then turning them back on them. Pretty sick American politics which I can of course see playing out on this website with some right wing paid posters trying it on.
    You might want to provide some proof of your claims Jim. I'd be interested in following them up if they amount to anything.
    Misty
    15th Jan 2019
    12:43am
    Sky News is a political chanel Jim, that is what they are calling themselves now and I am interested in politics, so that is why I watch it, as you get to hear about a lot of political news that you do not get on other TV and radio news.
    Jim
    15th Jan 2019
    9:33am
    Busy watching the cricket last night Mick so didn’t see your post until,this morning, the point I made originally regarding information that can be found on any website is that it is difficult to know what is truth and what is a manipulative lie, we can all put references up that support a particular argument, the comment you made regarding reddit’s defence against being called a left wing organisation doesn’t mean the accusation is incorrect, they are giving an explanation as to why they are considered a left wing organisation, if you care to look at their posts they are always critical of right wing organisations around the world and without trawling back through years of posts by them I have never seen a post that supports the right wing or gives a positive expression, I am not being critical that they are left wing that’s their choice as it is for anyone that follows that ideology, I am just pointing out that they are left leaning, so their views would be expected to be biased towards the left, as any right leaning organisation would be biased towards the right wing.
    disillusioned
    14th Jan 2019
    11:44am
    Reminds me of the "joke", Q. "How can you tell when a politician's lying?" A. "Their lips are moving!"
    jackie
    14th Jan 2019
    12:31pm
    disillusioned...That's the problem people don't watch their entire actions. Squandering tax payer money on their self indulgent lifestyles and conducting illicit business dealings behind the scenes.

    Each time a politician is caught ripping off tax payers they should be sacked instead of ignored.
    mogo51
    14th Jan 2019
    1:07pm
    Exactly, I am disillusioned all the time these days with the bunch we have been served up with currently.
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    3:33pm
    What about Mathieus Corman spending all that money on a trip to a meeting, hasen't he heard of Skype and conference calls, especially as the meeting was not urgent, $38.000.00 seems a lot of money to spend on a non urgent meeting. I know it was within the guidelines but surely this is over the top and maybe guidelines need to be changed, both sides can be at fault here.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    3:35pm
    They were important strategic issue regarding overhauling our tax system .
    Would have meant years of economic growth powered by increased business and consumer spending
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    4:38pm
    Rubbish Lothario, they could not have been too important as they never came to anything did they.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    4:40pm
    Labor ratbags sabotaged it and sold the country out
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    4:55pm
    The country has been wrecked by your Lieberal mates, not Labor.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    4:59pm
    I always have to smile when an LNP troll claims Labor caused our ills. Labor did NOT run our debt up to the current $676 billion. The LNP did. All we have to show for this is two Royal Commissions into the Opposition and Unions as well as tax cuts for the LNP's wealthy supporters.
    Pretty obvious to all but the mentally challenged and rusted ons trotting out the party line.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    5:04pm
    MICK, I have pointed out your untruth about the debt before and it pains me to do it time after time. You appear to be a slow learner. Yes, Morrison increased the ceiling of future debt to $600B to allow for future possible debts but that is not the figure that is owed. The figure owed by government as at July this year is $341.0B.

    To point out another of your untruths, Labor left a debt as at September 2013 of $174.577B so the Coalition has not doubled the debt, close but no cigar. I might also point out that if you include the balance that Labor took over of $24.2B in credit, Labor spent $198.777B whilst in office. Your masters who subscribe to the theory that if you tell a lie often enough that it becomes the truth would be proud of you.

    Please don't slip into your predictable union bully boy mode and just refute my figures if you can. If you can't refute the figures then it would be expected that you will refrain from telling the untruth about Australia's debt.
    Here you are MICK:

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:50pm
    OM - BS!
    The Conversation is not exactly concise is it.
    The ATO, the tax office, stated that the federal government debt as at 30 June 2018 was $515 billion. You can scream blue murder all you like but that is a FACT. The link I provided gives the current debt at $676 billion.
    I don't want to debate this unless you use credible FACTS. Tell me the ATO is a left wing organisation?????
    TREBOR
    14th Jan 2019
    6:56pm
    You forget, OM, that the LNP's much embraced massive 'credit' was a one-off shot into the budget from flogging off everything in sight for short term gain. If a business did that - a true Gordon Gecko move - they'd be prosecuted for deliberately down-grading a company to pass it on to someone else to bear the costs.

    Howard the Coward (Assassin of the Gun Owners and facilitator of the 'domestic violence OVAMA rules - Overt Violence Against Men Acts) did no favours for this nation - and he spent a mass of that ready on his designer war in Iraq etc.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    9:05pm
    I always reckoned the Howard government was the only "weapons of mass destruction". Howard lied. Just like Abbott lied. This political party is light years ahead in the dishonesty and political smear stakes. If uncle Rupert and uncle Kerry did not groom the public nobody in their right mind could vote for this lot. Says something about us I guess.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    10:22pm
    Talking crap as usual Trebor
    If I had a debt of %500k and sold my house for $1M it means I now have ZERO debt and $500K in assets and no more interest payments year in year out
    My new $500k investment would be giving me a handsome dividend to live off

    Labor took that beautiful balance sheet the LnP gave them and pissed it in the wind
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    10:35pm
    Reading from the same propaganda sheet. Howard was in power when the money came in with no effort. Rudd inherited the GFC.

    Read up about the GFC instead of gilding the lily. Then look at the current debt of $676 billion....MOST OF WHICH CAME FROM THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT. Labor has not gotten us into the position the country is in. THE LNP HAS. Tax cuts anyone? How about Royal Commissions into Labor and unions? New coal fired generators coming. That's when I'll be calling for jail sentences for the criminals as well as the paid trolls like you.
    Greg
    15th Jan 2019
    11:15pm
    MICK - there are two debt figures which float around depending on which media organisation is telling the story, there's the larger figure (600+ B) which is the Gross Debt, the money owned to others by the feds. Then there is the Net Debt, the lower figure (300+ B) which is the Gross Debt less assets which the government owns and earns interest on.

    When the Libs lied their way into office in 2013 the Net Debt was 174 B and in July 2018 the Net debt was 341 B so the Net Debt has increased 96%.

    Naturally the GFC had a major role in the increased debt from Howard to the end of Labor in '13, there was a massive reduction in revenues as well as spending short term to "prop-up" the economy. Since the Libs came in the spending hasn't really changed much and the revenues until recently have been recovering from the GFC.

    For the whingers on here who say Labor turned a surplus into a large debt keep in mind one of the main reasons for this was Howard's spend, spend, spend attitude - he had plenty of money to play with due to mining and kept returning to office as he was able to buy the votes each election with more welfare payments for all including middle to upper class. Items like Family Tax Benefit B and the Baby Allowance. These welfare payments are great while the country can afford them but when times get tough (GFC and years later) they're not affordable and you get the debt increasing. Obviously it's hard to wind back those payments as the voters would get jack of it and vote the party out.
    Anonymous
    16th Jan 2019
    9:22am
    And the same applies to the LNP now, Greg. They INHERITED Labor's stuff ups.

    Yes, Labor inherited obligations LNP created. And then they added more and the ones they are winding back now are the ones that got the nation through the GFC in better shape than any other. Our franking credit policy is world-leading, working brilliantly, and is credited by top economists and one of the key factors contributing to Australian's superior financial health (by world standards). And ALP IDIOTS not only want to destroy it, but are doing so based on blatant lies and outdated data. They don't even make sense. They call it 'welfare', then say that the rich and high income earners should still get it, but not the battlers. They then call it 'tax' (which it is) - but ONLY if certain people pay it. Others pay the same from the same source, but because they are poorer, it NOT tax. It's unaffordable for battlers with very little other income and no government help, but it's affordable for rich pensioners who are already getting double handouts.


    ILLOGICAL, UNFAIR and DOWNRIGHT STUPID in every aspect! And as dishonest as it gets.
    I hate the LNP, but Labor will wipe us out with their stupidity and lies.
    Mad as Hell
    14th Jan 2019
    11:58am
    “.....no changes to pensions......”
    Lie to me once shame on you.
    Lie to me twice shame on me.
    GeorgeM
    14th Jan 2019
    2:17pm
    Yes, Libs should have been turfed out last time itself based on this massive broken promise - if only retirees & pre-retirees had an ounce of common sense and united for the common good for protecting retirement incomes. But then, the ALP (Bowen in particular) also helped them to get re-elected by refusing to reverse the Assets Test changes.

    Definitely, all Retirees must join in and give it another shot this time to get rid of both these major parties and the Greens. All should demand Universal Pension.
    thommo
    14th Jan 2019
    2:34pm
    I agree with you 100% Mad as hell....
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    3:40pm
    I do not agree with a Universal Pension, why on earth would you want Millionairs to get a pension?, and how else do you work out a pension system without an Asset Test, I haven't Googled how these things work so would someone please enlighten me.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    3:43pm
    Misty - millionaires paid more taxes. Why shudnt they get a pension you green eyed monster
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    4:43pm
    What rot Lothario, why do you think they are millionaires?, because they pay accountants to structure their affairs so they pay little or no tax, remember whaat Kerry Packer said about tax, "Anyone who doesn't minimise their tax wants their head read"
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:00pm
    Spot on Mad As Hell.
    GeorgeM
    14th Jan 2019
    5:02pm
    Misty, I thought you would have read the dozens of posts from myself, OGR, Trebor, many others how to make the system fair by Universal Pension, and if you still don't understand it, it may be beyond you (I will make another attempt in the next para). Millionaires are not that rich anyway! If you mean Multi-Millionaires, they may not even bother to claim Age Pension, as if they did they probably will pay nearly half of it as Tax! In any case, they have paid lots of taxes to get to where they are, so there is NO logic to exclude them on any fairness criteria. You need to stop your jealous outlook, as that is the one way all political parties win by putting one group against another. Google does not have the answer for everything, in fact you get a lot of Fake News and Lies there.

    With Universal Pension (say for all Aged 65 years, and 15 years of Residence), a large chunk of Centrelink can be shut down saving huge recurring costs as ATO can simply send out payments after an initial Registration, Retirees do not need to face Centrelink harassment, incentives to Earn and Save will be restored as all who do this will not be punished, the economy will consequentially boom with lots more taxes revenue rolling in, and finally, even the Pension Rate could increase with such additional tax revenue with less costs - hope you like that last possible benefit!

    Also, to increase Revenue, a crackdown needs to take place on Large Companies and the rich who are avoiding fair taxes, by implementing a Minimum Tax system (can't explain that too now....) as lots more Taxes are simply out there waiting to be collected by such a simple system, but our two Major parties are BOTH getting too much donations from them to take action so far.
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    7:51pm
    George M you cannot have it both ways, you say the rich have paid lots of taxes to get where they and then in another paragraph you say the rich are avoiding paying fair tax, the rich pay little or no tax, they pay their accountants well to achieve this outcome. Oh and by the way I am neither stupid or greedy, just not interested in a Universal Pension and I am quite happy with my lot in life. I don't know what lifestyle you lead George M but I do not know anyone who would not class a millionaire rich.
    GeorgeM
    14th Jan 2019
    8:01pm
    I was right, tried anyway, but it is all beyond you - misguided by your jealousy of those better off than you. Hopefully, my post is not wasted and may get others thinking.
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    8:32pm
    You are the one who is thick George M, obviously you didn't, or couldn't, read my reply above, I am not greedy or jealous, happy with my lot which it seems is more then you can say if you want a Universal Pension.
    Anonymous
    15th Jan 2019
    1:45pm
    You ARE jealous, Misty, and very selfish. "happy with my lot'' - yes, getting a pension. And stuff everyone who isn't, no matter what their circumstances. Misty is okay and chooses to ASSUME (with absolutely no basis and no analysis) that others don't deserve a pension. You have no idea how the assets test discriminates and creates unfair hardship, but you endorse it anyway. You refuse to acknowledge how the pension system encourages manipulation and discourages endeavour. You even have the disgusting gall to suggest that it's perfectly okay for someone who saved to be persecuted because 'they made choices' - so YOU claim wasters and bludgers should be rewarded and those who choose to work hard and save well should be punished, and their suffering is THEIR fault for the choices they made.

    George is right. You have no comprehension, and no respect either. Sad that I and my children have to contribute to supporting people like you. How disgusting that you suck off our teats but then refuse to endorse demands for a fair deal for those who pay your way.

    It's not George who is thick. It is you. He is absolutely correct in everything he says. And if you weren't misguided by jealousy, you would understand his explanation and support a call for fairness. You are taking more in handouts from the taxpayer than many excluded by the assets test managed to save in a lifetime, and many of they didn't claim a single tax benefit that you didn't also claim. Yet you think they should have to live on what they saved while you get handouts because you didn't? That's about as selfish as it gets!
    In fact, it's THEFT. Might be legal, but it's still THEFT. Why should people who spent a lifetime saving to leave money to their kids have to deprive their children and give it to strangers instead - strangers who, in many cases, had equal opportunity to save but just didn't bother? The assets test is WRONG in every respect, and universal pensions would not only save the nation a fortune but boost the economy greatly both by increasing retiree spending that drives jobs and tax revenue and by encouraging folk to work and save rather than manipulating to get a pension they may not need.


    A sensible tax system takes care of multi-millionaires. But a millionaire isn't wealthy today, and anyone who thinks they are is grossly ignorant. A million isn't nearly enough to last a couple for 20-30 years in retirement. And it's less than most pensioners will receive over the term of their retirement.
    Misty
    15th Jan 2019
    5:56pm
    Don't start on me on this site OGR, I had enough of you on the others, always beating the same drum, for goodness sake get a decent accountant and structure your finances so the changes don't affect you, it can be done, Kerry Packer proved it. OGR and anyone else commenting here can be as rude and insulting as they like but I won't stoop to their level.
    Anonymous
    15th Jan 2019
    8:43pm
    OMG … the IGNORANCE is mind-boggling, Misty. If I was rich enough to get a fancy accountant and structure my finances so the changes don't affect me, I wouldn't BLOODY NEED to. You clearly are unbelievably self-centred and disinterested in fact or reality. You just don't get it at all, do you?

    THE PEOPLE YOU WANT ATTACKED AND LABOR IS ATTACKING ARE NOT BLOODY RICH. They can't manipulate, because they have less than you do. You get a secure income for life with all the concessions. They have nowhere near the amount you will reap, but they have to figure out a way to live on it while being ripped off every direction by politicians who are urged on by greedy pricks who make stupid ASSUMPTIONS about matters they are totally ignorant about.

    You are stooping way below the level of nearly anyone else here, because you are supporting gross unfairness based on your own wild imaginings and self-interest.

    You've been told over and over but clearly there is not much between your ears. Labor ISN'T ATTACKING THE RICH. Shorten is leaving everyone with a decent income or a large nest egg well alone. The people he CLAIMS to be attacking - those with more than $2.4 mil in super - will lose little or nothing. It's the battlers he's bashing up on, and they HAVE LESS THAN YOU DO when the sums are done correctly.
    Misty
    15th Jan 2019
    9:47pm
    Well OGR in my opinion anyone who has $500,000.or more invested is not poor and should be able to afford an accountant or Financial Advisor. Insults and assumptions will get you nowhere OGR, you know nothing about me so stop with the rude and insulting mistruths.
    Anonymous
    16th Jan 2019
    9:16am
    And that's why you DON'T have $500,000 invested, Misty. Because you HAVE NO IDEA about the value of money or the challenges people needing advice face. If you won the lottery, you would be one of those many who are broke within a year.

    $500,000 might be a lot of someone aged 95. It might even be enough for a younger single retiree, depending on their likely longevity and health etc. For a couple with possibly 30 years of inflation, deteriorating health and no income ahead of them, $1 million is NOT nearly enough - and it's LESS than most pensioners receive.

    And circumstances determine whether certain solutions work. It's been widely stated that a solution to Short-on's treachery is to bring younger folk into the super fund. We don't have that option. Lots of people don't have that option. And yes, affording 'an accountant or financial adviser' is easy. Finding one who is competent, honest, and can offer a valid solution to a problem is will nigh impossible - and if one could, they might spend tens of thousands on poor performers before finding a good one.

    The bottom line is that the Labor Party is LYING and UNFAIR IN THE EXTREME and decent people - whether they generally support the party or not - acknowledge that and oppose. Intelligent people who aren't blinded by envy or selfishness support a universal pension, because it is economically beneficial, easy to administer, respectful to our seniors, and FAIR to all.

    You can shove your opinion where the sun doesn't shine, because it's totally ill-informed, ignorant, arrogant, nasty, and motivated by extreme selfishness. When you are smart enough to accumulate $500,000, come back and make an intelligent and informed comment.
    Anonymous
    16th Jan 2019
    9:26am
    And what I know about you is that you are dumb, arrogant, and selfish. That's patently obvious from your comments. And you have no idea about finance or economics and no understanding of your precious ALP's policies, much less the ability to understand how they lie and deceive the gullible like you.
    Greg
    16th Jan 2019
    1:10pm
    OGR - That seems harsh, you don't know Misty's situation, what hardships they've had, just because they don't have $500,000 invested doesn't mean they have no idea about the value of money. And what if they didn't have any idea about money, some people just can't get their head around it, just like some people can't understand why artworks are so fantastic, that's what makes us all different and you don't need to belittle them.

    You seem to be a very angry person, angry at everyone on here and the world I guess. Maybe you've had a hard time too, but you're not unique, plenty of people have hardships. All these comments you make suggest you're very stressed, that's not good, it will kill you.

    $1 million dollars should generally be enough to live well until the big sleep comes along. I don't know how old you are but I'm guessing around 60 if you say you may have 30 years left. $1 million not enough? How much would be enough for you?
    Misty
    16th Jan 2019
    1:47pm
    Thanks for the support Greg I am sick of being bullied by OGR, I thought there were laws against this sort of thing on the Internet.
    Anonymous
    16th Jan 2019
    6:45pm
    Firstly, Greg, I don't need to know Misty's situation to know that she is being unfair and demonstrating arrogance and ignorance. She is wishing hurt on someone based on STUPID invalid assumptions - too arrogant and stubborn to consider that she might not know what she's on about and maybe she could actually learn something if she paid attention and stopped her selfish rants and wrong assumptions.

    The problem in Australia is that people are voting with no comprehension of the issues and based on selfishness and envy. We should have a test of understanding before people are allowed to vote. Labor's policies are being supported by people who have no clue what they are about, who they affect or how, or what harm they might do. Because they don't have shares, they automatically assume that it's fine for people who do to lose. What if we assumed that about pensions? Let's cancel pensions because I don't get one! How would selfish pensioners react to that? All I ask is that people pay attention to FACTS and stop ranting with ill-informed rubbish.

    I don't have $1 million, and what I do have is shared between two. And no, it's NOT enough to last maybe 25-30 years given very high expenses due to health issues (that do not reduce likely lifespan, but DO impose costs) and the need for household help and personal care, and family circumstances that impose major challenges. Furthermore, most pensioners get more than $1 million over the course of their retirement, so what Misty is saying is that she is entitled to $1 million from the taxpayer purse, but I'm not even entitled to fair return for saving for a lifetime. I'm now supposed to pay 30% tax on retirement income while pensioners get TRIPLE handouts and retirees with way more than me pay nothing and retirees who don't invest in shares pay nothing. And Misty says that's fair and perfectly okay, even if it bankrupts me, because IT DOESN'T HURT HER. And she ASSUMES (very wrongly) that I must have manipulates on tax, and she ASSUMES (very wrongly) that I can rearrange my affairs to avoid being treated unfairly. She KNOWS NOTHING. She just ASSUMES, and on the basis of her WRONG ASSUMPTIONS, endorses an attack on my income and that of people like me.

    How much would be enough for me? Experts say a couple retiring today needs a minimum of $1.6 million. Experts say that a couple with less than about $1.2 million would be better off with $500,000 and drawing a pension. And if Labor has their way, a couple will probably need $1.5 million to be as well off as a pensioner with $500,000. Anyone who thinks that's fair or economically sensible is brainless!

    That's not all. The means test assesses people as having assets and income that they DON'T HAVE. One poster here reports an annuity being counted at way over it's real value. For years, a friend had a useless block of land because a council planning error make it unsalable and unusable. Centrelink valued it at purchase price. That couple couldn't draw a pension because of a totally worthless asset. What were they supposed to live on?

    The assets test ignores age (a 95 year old needs very little compared to a 65 year old); health; personal needs; family circumstances; ability to achieve fair investment returns (thus discriminating against the educationally disadvantaged and favouring the privileged). It's an UNFAIR test and it's doing the nation harm. And decent, intelligent people don't rave on in favour of an unfair and harmful policy. They question and pay attention to discussion and treat others with RESPECT, and try to understand the problems so they can support calls for improvement in the system.

    I am not the bully, Misty. You are. You are supporting unfair demolition of my income (and that of others) because you make wrong assumptions instead of paying respectful attention to FACTS and considering ideas that COULD make life better for everyone.

    And yes, Greg. I am angry. I am angry that uninformed people will vote to support a policy that is patently wrong and don't give a damn who it hurts or how wrong it is, and refuse to THINK about the issues when others raise concerns but just go off half-cocked with more self-serving BS.
    Misty
    16th Jan 2019
    7:36pm
    There you go OGR, calling me names, being rude and bullying, there are laws against that now, saying you don't need to know anything about me but you are MAKING ASSUMPTIONS WITHOUT ANY BASIS, as Greg said there are many people who have suffered hardship in their life time, especially those from war torn countries but they do not carry on the way you do.
    Anonymous
    16th Jan 2019
    7:48pm
    And just to set you straight, Greg, since neither you nor Misty have the faintest idea what you are on about, but merely ASSUME.

    $1 million dollars drawn at just $40,000 a year in today's money, allowing for inflation at 3%pa (and it could, as in the past, go to 7 or 8% or higher!), would run out in 18 years. That's 12 years short of 30, in case you can't figure that out. Now, if you assume the money is in the bank at 2% and interest rates remain as they are, it will run out in 24 years. Still 6 years short.

    Now let's look at a more realistic model, because with $0 concessions and benefits an SFR couple with high needs due to health will more likely need $60,000 a year, and if they have $900,000, most likely $80,000 of it will be non-returning because Centrelink counts their car, furniture and personal effects. So now their money is all gone in 15 years.

    With $500,000 in assessable assets and a pension, that same couple could draw $60,000 a year income easily WITHOUT touching a penny of their savings. So all their extra savings is being handed to the taxman and giving them $0 benefit, unless they blow it on a cruise or trade up to a much more expensive house. And that's why a universal pension is much more sensible and fairer. Because people who save should be able to benefit from their savings. A sensible tax system takes back all the pension money from those who genuinely don't need it, but it doesn't INVENT income that doesn't exist, the way the pension means test does.

    Now what Shorten is saying is that if this couple with $820,000 have it invested in shares instead of in the bank - in which case they would need 3 year's cash ($180,000) so they would most likely have only $640,000 to invest), and they are getting the average return on shares of 5% (meaning heir money would run out in 14 years), they should pay 30% tax on their income, so their money will run out in just 12 years

    Of course assuming the government continues to pay pensions and doesn't slash them further or tighten means tests, this couple will get a part pension within about 4 or 5 years. And THAT is why the current system is WRONG. Because this couple COULD support themselves, potentially, for between 15 and 24 years, yet the stupid means test forces them into dependency on the taxpayer, and rewards them handsomely if they contrive to be even more dependent and for a longer period.
    Paddington
    16th Jan 2019
    9:04pm
    OGR, you are consistently very nasty to Misty. You try to play the victim but you are the actual bully.
    OGR, if you have nearly $1m or something less then you should be able to manage to live a decent lifestyle. Perhaps you should change your sources of financial advice rather than complaining and attacking other people. You continually slam pensioners. So why don’t you join them. I am sure with some juggling of your finances you could get a part pension.
    Change your situation until you are content.
    Take a different approach and be creative with your money and be more positive.
    Wise words from Greg!
    Greg
    16th Jan 2019
    10:14pm
    Paddington - you beat me to it about joining the pensioners.

    OGR - Why don't you want to be a pensioner, would you feel embarrassed about it, my MIL is like that too, doesn't like people to know she's on the pension as people may think she's poor or somehow a lesser person. I know you think that pensioners live in some type of nirvana, you are very jealous of them so why not join the club. I'm not old enough for a pension but I know there's plenty who do it tough, single ones who rent I think find it the hardest, it's not all partying and wild nights for them all you know.

    Yes I know you can provide for yourself but Shorten is going to stuff that up for you, but people who may vote Labor aren't just thinking about you and your dividends, there are many other issues that may mean people vote for Labor so why denigrate them. You call them selfish and envious, that's ridiculous, if they don't own any shares why would they be thinking "Oh, I won't vote Labor because some people are going to get less income" - come on really, I know some may, but I can tell you most (if they don't own shares) wouldn't give it a second thought. Like I said plenty of other issues may sway them towards Labor.

    I'm retired, too young for pension so living off savings, when I'm 67 I can get a part pension initially for a few years then a full pension - I've read many articles where advisers factor in the age pension as part of a retirement plan, I'm not too proud to take it and I don't understand why you can't.

    "And just to set you straight, Greg, since neither you nor Misty have the faintest idea what you are on about, but merely ASSUME."

    Yes I have no idea what I'm on about - thanks for YOUR assumption of me. You don't know me, you don't know my background, you don't know my financial position so don't assume I don't know what I'm on about.
    Anonymous
    17th Jan 2019
    12:28pm
    Greg, perhaps I don't communicate as well as I should... but the issue isn't ME or my situation. The issue is what's good for the nation. I can divest and get a pension. There are personal issues involved that I don't want to discuss but that would make things very hard for me emotionally, but that's another issue. I CAN divest and claim a pension.

    My issue is the constant nasty assumptions Misty makes without any knowledge of my situation, and the flat refusal to even consider that she might be jumping to wrong conclusions, and that perhaps THINKING about the issues rather than focusing on who has what or touting her ASSUMPTIONS might lead to better understanding.

    Yes, of course there are lots of issues. And frankly, I favour Labor on most of them. But I can't support Labor because of the harm they are doing with their franking credit policy (and a few others) - and that's not about me, although it will hurt me very unfairly. It's about the gross unfairness of it overall and the damage it will do to the economy and the nation. And that's something we should all be concerned about - not thinking 'does this affect me or someone I care about or only people I don't like or I envy?' but thinking 'what does this mean for our country'.

    Labor supporters would do well to pressure Shorten to change the policy, because it just might lose him the election. And that would be a shame. And if he wins, and pushes it through (despite there being strong opposition), he risks doing massive harm. Why does it matter who it affects personally? It's about whether it makes sense or whether his statements about it are dishonest, ill-informed, based on outdated data, etc. Instead of throwing barbs at someone, why not think about the POINTS they are making?

    We can all do as Paddington suggests - juggle. But we shouldn't have to. And it shouldn't be beneficial to do so. Senior Australians should be able to enjoy the benefits they earned in peace, WITHOUT needing advanced financial knowledge or having to navigate the risky advice market. Nobody should be in the position of being worse off for doing what's good for the nation, no matter what their level of financial knowledge or experience. And younger Aussies shouldn't be looking to juggle to draw unnecessarily from the taxpayer purse because the system is bad.

    Do we really want a nation where aging Australians have to worry themselves sick over financial risks and rates of return every day of their retirement, or else divest their assets and worry about whether Centrelink might deem them to have $1 too much? Is that the sort of country we want to live in and bequeath to our children?

    We should all have stood united against the assets test change because it was BAD for the nation to create a 7.8%+++ return for reducing investments that were only returning 5% on average. That slogan 'millionaires shouldn't get pensions' left out the truth that most aged pensioners receive a million over the course of their retirement, and a million isn't that much in today's world if it has to last you 2 to 3 decades of deteriorating health and no earning capacity.

    We should all stand against Shorten's franking credit policy because it's patently unfair and threatens our economy.

    We should all stand united in a demand for a universal pension - or at least abolition of the assets test - because the system is assessing wealth in an artificial and unfair manner that is making it advantageous to either be poorer or appear to be poorer rather than saving as much as possible.

    There are other issues that don't impact me personally, and I want to know about them. I want to stand up for people who are suffering unfairly or threatened with unfairness. I want to stand up against policies that threaten the nation's welfare. I want to hear about the problems and experiences that give others a deeper understanding of issues that I don't know much about.

    Sure, I can do lots of things to change my situation - including milking the public purse. I choose to be honest and proud of my independence, and I resent the nasty innuendos from Misty that suggest I should suffer unfairly and completely ignore my repeated statements highlighting the problems with the policy. It's nothing to do with politics, and it's not really that much to do with me - except that I am one of those Shorten is aiming the gun at very unfairly and without cause. It's about having the intelligence to debate an issue constructively, without displaying envy and without making wild assumptions that have nothing to do with reality.

    And I really don't understand how it can be so hard to stop saying 'well I don't know any one with that much money' or 'you must not have paid much tax' (because she wouldn't have a damn clue what I paid!) or 'just find a good accountant' and say 'I'm sorry this is causing you worry and it's clearly unfair' or 'yes, I can see that there are some major issues of unfairness and threatened harm'. Because it's that arrogant attitude that makes Shorten so unlikeable and dangerous. He doesn't care what harm he's doing or to whom. And it seems a lot of Labor supporters share his appalling attitude. And sorry, Misty, but I guess you are just too much like Shorten. His arrogance and uncaring and spruiking the politics of envy gets to me, and you mimic him.
    Misty
    17th Jan 2019
    3:46pm
    I am sick and tired of your bullying me OGR, I DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING ABOUT YOU, I AM ONLY GOING ON WHAT YOU WRITE HERE, AND PLEASE STOP ASSUMING YOU KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT ME., I will repeat again, I do not know anyone who is a millionaire but I could not care less who has a million, good luck to them, especially if they earned it the hard way and I am sure if you asked the average person in the street, not many would not think that a person with a million in the bank was not rich. I do not know what circle of people you mix with but no one I know has close to that amount, and no they are like me, not jealous, SO STOP WITH THE NAME CALLING PLEASE. i NOTICE YOU DON'T HIT BACK AT ANYONE ELSE WHO ADVISES YOU TO SEEK FINANCIAL ADVICE, WHY ARE YOU PICKING ON ME?, I have had ENOUGH OF IT, YLC'S does not seem to care either unfortunately, obviously no one bothers to moneter this site.
    Anonymous
    17th Jan 2019
    6:02pm
    Is it really so hard to stop being so self-centred and show some respect, Misty? Obviously you have no capacity to comprehend basic facts and logic. I'm not 'picking on you'. I'm simply asking you to have some common decency and stop making unfounded assumptions and ranting as if you are consumed with envy.

    A million is NOT rich today - and anyone who thinks it is has no financial savvy at all, because most pensioners will be given a million over the course of their retirement. It's NOT enough to retire independently on unless you can generate very good returns. But that is NOT the point. The point is that policy that makes it more beneficial to manipulate to either be or appear poor enough to get a pension IS NOT GOOD POLICY. Policy that imposes 30% tax on people just for being independent retirees owning shares, while all other retirees pay no tax, IS NOT FAIR or good for the country. And people who vote based on their assumptions of who has what or who needs what do the country harm.

    Try focusing on the ISSUE for once, instead of getting personal and ranting about how good it is that someone else is suffering unfairness or hurt. I'm sick of your bullying also. You ARE assuming. You ASSUMED a financial adviser or accountant could fix the issues Shorten threatens to create for me. YOU ARE WRONG. You ASSUME I am wealthy. YOU ARE WRONG. And I'm sorry if you don't know anyone as successful as me. I deliberately mix with people who are more successful than I am so that I learn from them. And I listen to them and pay attention to what they are saying - not to fantasies about their money or what they might do with it. Frankly, I don't KNOW how much money my friends have. I'm not rude enough to ask. But I know their living standards and talk suggests they have a lot more than me, and that's good. I still speak out in strong opposition to policies that are unfair to them. And I still speak out in strong opposition to policies that, though they might give them benefits they don't need, are bad for the nation as a whole. Who has what is totally irrelevant. That's what's wrong with the Greens and Labor. They can't think past 'how much does X have and how much can we take off them to give to Y so we buy votes'. Can't understand that people working, earning and saving is GOOD for the nation, and we need more of it - not more people sucking on the public teat. Welfare is a good and very necessary thing, but forcing more people onto it unnecessarily is STUPID. ?Tax revenue needs to be FAIR. And 'fair' has nothing to do with how much money someone has. It has to do with whether the same rules apply to everyone.

    When you stop approving unfairness that hurts me, Misty, I'll stop defending against your bullying. Deal?
    Misty
    17th Jan 2019
    7:51pm
    Never OGR, I am not the one doing the bullying as you can see from the comments from Paddington and Greg,, you are the one making assumptions, wrongly I might add, it is not my fault if you put all your money into shares to live off the interest, as that is what it seems you have done according to your posts here, you have to live with the choices you make just as we all do.
    Anonymous
    18th Jan 2019
    8:02am
    We only live with bad consequences of good choices - choices people were URGED to make for the good of the nation - when evil people abuse their power and ignorant, uncaring, nasty people endorse and support that evil instead of standing up for fairness and decency, Misty.

    You ARE THE BULLY, because you are supporting evil that will destroy the livelihood of nearly 700,000 innocent people who are helping the country by being self-supporting in retirement. And you are doing so based on gross lies. And instead of respectfully considering the facts of the issue, you continue nasty attacks on me for pointing out the facts.

    No, of course you won't agree to stop approving unfairness. Because you are a PRIZE BULLY.
    MarkAdel
    14th Jan 2019
    12:22pm
    Mick, you are always cracking jokes. How about rusted on Labor voters. I bet you loved Rudd and Gillard. It might be better that people think of you as a fool than to write stuff like you do and remove all doubt.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    4:56pm
    The fools here are the LNP trolls.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:04pm
    Fair comment MarkAdel but I support neither side of politics although I make no bones about wanting to shred the current government before we end up a dictatorship run by corporations.
    Gillard? You forget the 'Ditch the Witch' sign Abbott and Alan Jones stood next to. Gillard told ONE lie. Abbott's lies appear to be without end.
    Rudd? If not for Rudd renewable energy would have been killed off the same way Howard allowed the world's 3rd largest LNG deposit to be flogged off to foreigners...to protect the coal industry as well???

    Call me a spotted dog if you like but please understand the facts which haunt me. The above are but a start. Cheers.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    5:18pm
    MICK, to put the signage in context, Abbott was on the podium talking when the idiots with the signs turned up, Abbott didn't stand in front of the signs. Secondly, Gillard said "I will wreck the people smuggling trade by "removing the incentive for boats to leave their ports of origin in the first place". How did that work out for her? She also said that she would deduct state royalties off the MRRT to stop the mining companies and reneged after being elected. Both sides lie, MICK, including your precious Labor people.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:52pm
    I don't know. All I know is the campaign to get rid of Gillard was one of the dirtiest betrayals I have ever seen. Worse than how your lot got rid of Whitlam. Worse than Mediscare.
    Of course you never mention the wickedness of your employer as you troll to get the LNP back into office. It ain't happening!
    Jim
    14th Jan 2019
    7:27pm
    Oh dear Mick you often state you would prefer to vote independ, but you constantly sing the praises of the Labor party, and now you are going back to the Whitlam era, he was probably the worst Prime Minister since federation, and to my shame I voted for him twice, I was a lot more naive in those days, the money that Whitlam was trying to borrow from the Arabs was on such bad terms that had it gone through we would probably still be trying to recover from it, and don’t forget the millions he paid to Khemlani the Pakistani money broker who was organising the deal, as for who got rid of him, that was the Australian voters, but of course you would say that was because of the lies told by the Libs, It always amazes me the conceit that some people have for democracy and for the people who exercise their vote, it’s always the case that whoever loses say it’s because of the lies told by the victors and it doesn’t matter which side of politics you support the cry is always the same.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    9:10pm
    I'm already aware you are a rusted on LNP voter Jim but please do not twist my words.
    The crap you write above is off the planet. Please talk about the current debt of $676 billion your government has run up compared to the GFC Labor rule where it ran up $158 billion. Yeah...no comment on that. Ever.
    The nonsense you post defies belief. The writing of either a rusted on fool or a cash for comment stoolie working for the party.

    If you want to go back decades then dredge up name like Fraser and Howard. Both of these guuys have their own skeletons which you NEVER, I repeat NEVER, talk about. I have no time for your stupidity!
    neil
    14th Jan 2019
    12:26pm
    Is there ANY time that is OK to lie, especially from a politician who has been entrusted with running his/her country and to do the right thing. Do you tell lies to your friends, families and work colleagues. Wow I find some of the BS here amazing.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:05pm
    A lie is a lie is a lie. Politicians who are lying snakes need to be kicked out. Any/all of them. No exceptions.
    mogo51
    14th Jan 2019
    1:06pm
    Well Mick, I was a conservative for many years until 7 or so years ago, when I started become disillusioned with the rubbish they were dishing up. So I looked at Labor, but not for very long as they are notoriously poor in doing their bookkeeping. In fact I doubt they even open it, just spend and worry about it later (but not for long, as they get thrown out and Libs had to fix the mess).
    So now with an election on the horizon, I am tending to vote Independent and hope that they obtain the balance of power in both houses would be great, but certainly Senate. Now this might be a bold move and we can fall flat, but we have been squashed for so long, I doubt they could possibly do any worse. It will be interesting.
    GeorgeM
    14th Jan 2019
    2:21pm
    Good analysis, in line with what most disillusioned people are thinking - voting Independents is great, but to ensure the current MP from either Major party or the Greens does not get in, it is important to put the current MP LAST (or thereabout) to ensure you get a Change.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:11pm
    I've been on the fence for a long time and try very hard to remain there.
    You appear to be avoiding proper scrutiny mogo51 as the devil is always in the detail.
    The real question you should be asking is WHAT IS OUR MONEY BUYING THE NATION? Medicare. Universal superannuation (which employers are rorting). The NBN. And a lot more.
    The LNP produce almost nothing other than tax cuts for rich supporters. The sickening support of the coal industry by the LNP must be obvious to you and I'd be very surprised if this if this lot did not sign up for a whole bunch of coal fired power generators just before the election.
    I have plugged Independents for years but my number one goal is to shred the current government which is not working for Australia.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    5:12pm
    You’ve been on a fence with a labor spike stuck up your ass
    Roflmao
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:53pm
    I already know you are an animal Lothario.
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    7:56pm
    Mind your language Lothario.
    mogo51
    14th Jan 2019
    1:06pm
    Well Mick, I was a conservative for many years until 7 or so years ago, when I started become disillusioned with the rubbish they were dishing up. So I looked at Labor, but not for very long as they are notoriously poor in doing their bookkeeping. In fact I doubt they even open it, just spend and worry about it later (but not for long, as they get thrown out and Libs had to fix the mess).
    So now with an election on the horizon, I am tending to vote Independent and hope that they obtain the balance of power in both houses would be great, but certainly Senate. Now this might be a bold move and we can fall flat, but we have been squashed for so long, I doubt they could possibly do any worse. It will be interesting.
    Dave H
    14th Jan 2019
    1:09pm
    We have stopped voting all together we found that it does not matter which party you talk about they have only thing of interest and it is themselves. They all lie and take advantage of all the perks they can. Even the one who get voted in for the first time with all the intentions of doing the right thing eventually change. I am lucky that I am old and will not have to suffer the thing that are coming to what was a wonderful country.
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    3:43pm
    Dave H we are still far better off then many other countries, I wouldn't want to live any where else.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:12pm
    No Dave.....you have to vote otherwise you may be the reason we get the rich mans dictatorship the current lot is trying to set up. It is important. That is what democracy is.
    KSS
    14th Jan 2019
    1:23pm
    Any doubts as to the bias of this website are removed when viewing the photograph introducing this article on the newsletter, although I note that the images has been changed to head the article!
    Eddy
    14th Jan 2019
    1:43pm
    Please KSS enlighten me, what is it about the photograph which indicates bias? All I can see is a besuited man with fingers crossed behind his back. Maybe it is the 'man' rather than a woman or the colour blue. Give me your analysis.

    Nevertheless I subscribe to disillusioned's comments, a politician only lies when his/her lips are moving, simple. I have felt that way since the mid 1990s when the cabinet documents from the 1960s were made public. Seems the esteemed PM of the day was very careless with the truth when he committed thousands of Australian serviceman, myself included, to the Vietnam war.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    3:20pm
    The newsletter sent as an email has the picture of Cormann and Morrison walking towards the camera Eddy. The fingers crossed picture is shown when one clicks onto the article for comment. KSS is right when pointing out the bias.
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    3:45pm
    KSS and Old Man, are you both paranoid?, I could not see anything that remotely suggested bias.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    4:34pm
    Hey Eddy & Misty, use this link which may clarify the accusation of bias.

    https://www.yourlifechoices.com.au/the_meeting_place/post/is-there-bias
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:33pm
    KSS - you have been sounding like a LNP supporter for some time. No more advertising please. Stick to the historical facts and you'll do well. Sadly both you and OM cannot win an argument on those as the facts are damning.
    ronloby
    14th Jan 2019
    1:46pm
    Come on people. It doesn't matter which side is in POWER they are all after their own back pocket and Bugger everyone else. It's about time restraints were enforced on "Pollies Perks". This would allow money to be spent where it should be, such as Education, Health.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:33pm
    Whilst correct lets run a score card.
    thommo
    14th Jan 2019
    2:32pm
    I no longer tolerate any politicians who lie, but I will also not tolerate them if they don't look after the poor and vulnerable, like age pensioners for instance.
    And the current LNP govt have the largest number of liars in parliament. You only have to look at the lies Abbott told before the 2013 election and broke all of the promises he made..
    Voters won't tolerate that behaviour, from him or anyone else, and the LNP is about to get it's comeuppance at the coming election because of it.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:34pm
    Good post.
    tactful
    14th Jan 2019
    2:43pm
    I am a very proud National Party member and I do not make any excuse for wanting them to represent me in Parliament. I live in a regional area, the Nats know and understand what is going on in their electorates. Sure they might behave badly, but show me a politician who hasn't.
    I know for a fact, they do not head to any election with lies and more lies, Labor and the Greens do this all the time. Just look at Shorten in the last election with his Mediscare lies.
    Being in coalition means that even if an undertaking is made, it may not happen immediately but it will happen.
    Before I joined the Nationals, I reacquainted myself with both Labor and Greens, the mini minor parties are self serving and not out to look after the whole of Australia.
    The only party that gives a damn about the remote/rural/regional voters are the Nationals, we, the party members choose out candidates, we make Policy decisions at our Conferences.
    Unlike Labor/Greens/Liberals there is no pre-decided agenda to be followed, it is of our making.
    The Nationals are truly the only true democratic party in this Country and they care deeply about the people who live here.
    They are far more trustworthy than the likes of Labor/Greens yes, even Liberals.
    Mick it is time you took your head out of your arse and did the appropriate research into what each party stands for.
    If you live in the bush the Nationals are the only way to go. Labor is the Unions, Greens are out to stop our Nation dead in its tracks, Liberals well they need to totally pull up their socks and start listening to their electorates.
    thommo
    14th Jan 2019
    3:12pm
    tactful....and I suppose Barnaby Joyce is your favourite politician.. It's voters like you who keep these low types in parliament...
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    3:26pm
    What is your problem with Joyce thommo? If it's about his affair and leaving his wife then you are being very one sided. Burke did the same thing when he was a Minister in the Labor government, he had an affair with a staffer, took her on an overseas junket (paid for by the taxpayer), divorced his wife and moved in with the staffer. The difference between the two is that the media only reported Joyce.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    5:00pm
    Joyce is an immoral scumbag and a moron to boot.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:35pm
    I met a die hard National last year. God help us.
    This is the party demanding new coal fired power stations. End of that argument!
    HarrysOpinion
    14th Jan 2019
    3:43pm
    "There will be no carbon tax under my leadership", said a famous vote thief. All it takes is one lie !
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    3:47pm
    And what happened to "Lower energy prices once the Carbon Tax is removed", BS lies from TA, still waiting for lower energy prices all these years later.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    3:51pm
    Energy prices dropped to the extent of the carbon tax
    Prices rose again because of renewal subsidies and the extra cost of not being able to provide cheap fossil fuel generated energy
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    4:47pm
    I don't know what planet you are living on Lothario but our energy prices never dropped or those of anyone elser I know, but of course you would defend TA'S policy would't you.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    5:01pm
    John Howard: "There will be no GST under a Howard government".
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    5:07pm
    Bit misleading Knows-a-lot, Howard took the GST to the 1999 election as a Liberal policy and the voters decided to vote his party back which gave Howard a mandate to introduce the GST.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:37pm
    Yes HS.....but you omitted to mention the long list from Abbott and Turnbull. Why is that? And then there is the gutter and malicious behaviour unbecoming to the office.
    HarrysOpinion
    15th Jan 2019
    9:00pm
    Yes, MICK... I omitted Abbott, Turnbull and...John Howard because Gillard's lie is the most famous one. Besides, I already wrote my opinion, above, about the Coalition's demise.
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    3:50pm
    Can anyone see a bias in the photo above these comments, to me it is just a picture of someone hoping that if they have told a lie they will not get caught out, I cannot see a bias towards or against any party.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    3:52pm
    Only bias I see here is yours , Micks and those that support labors idiotic policies
    Misty
    14th Jan 2019
    4:48pm
    And you wouldn't be biased to the right either Lothario?, give me a break please.
    Anonymous
    14th Jan 2019
    5:08pm
    Check this link Misty to see why there is an accusation of bias.

    https://www.yourlifechoices.com.au/the_meeting_place/post/is-there-bias
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:38pm
    Bias? Don't get me started. Have a look at the graph here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/8vgokb/australia_media_bias_chart/

    Now there's some real bias!
    mr.auspicious
    14th Jan 2019
    4:01pm
    Realistically, an honest politician is as scarce as rocking horse excrement. However as
    notorious propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels is alleged to have stated - " a lie told once
    remains in essence a misstatement of fact. However the same misstatement of fact, if
    repeated continually will ultimately be accepted as the truth.
    Certain politicians appear to have cynically adopted and exploited this proposition.

    Four days prior to being elected prime minister in 2007, the right honourable Kevin Rudd
    expounded....Australia needs a government that will help the nation fulfil its promise,
    rather than making promises it cannot fulfil....

    Noble sentiments Kev, but by any reasonable standard your administrations ( and Gillard's )
    failed miserably to achieve the former, but received dubious distinction delivering the
    latter. The economic repercussions remain as the economy struggles to recover from
    the lamentable profligacy Labor inflicted on all taxpayers.

    Now it appears the electorate has a short memory if recent polls are to be believed. It is
    worth noting that both Shorten and shadow Treasurer, Chris Bowen held ministerial
    positions when Labor last enjoyed a parliamentary majority. The electorate should be
    acquainted with their contribution to the ensuing debacle and remember that history is
    frequently repeated.
    Perhaps Shorten and Bowen will attempt to rebut their previous mediocre record as
    ministers, but the facts, though inconvenient, remain incontrovertible.
    Pass the Ductape
    14th Jan 2019
    4:25pm
    The question is: How many lies will you weather before you lose faith in a politician or are you just used to political misinformation and untruths?
    Personally, I don't wear lies from any politician and I'm so fed up with them all lying all the time, that if it weren't for the unfortunate laws we have which fine people for not voting, (that's real democracy at work for you) I wouldn't walk out of the door to attend a voting venue even if it was next door to my house. But in any case, I cast a donkey vote - so 'hee-haw' everyone!
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:40pm
    Democracy is there for all to use. Look at the likes of Wilkie. If we had a parliament made up of similar people Australia would be another Switzerland. Instead we have guns for sale who betray us. One side (much) more than the other but both sides do it.

    14th Jan 2019
    4:28pm
    from my own experience Barr the ACT chief minister would have to be up there as one of the greatest liars the act people have encountered . Said he would reduce caravan registration
    fees to the same as NSW. He never done this but argues that he did .This is one of many items that he has deceived the A C T people of So come on Canberra people make sure we git rid of Barr and his blackmailing partner Ratbury
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:41pm
    A local issue..........but at least you can buy fireworks in Canberra.

    14th Jan 2019
    4:49pm
    The LNP scumbag politicians lie more than the rest put together. Abbott and Howard were the biggest liars of all.
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    5:42pm
    They are types. I always suspect they give new PMs a shot to turn them into the most disreputable people in the country.
    Anonymous
    15th Jan 2019
    1:47pm
    Knows-a-lot knows very little. Way too dense and bigoted to detect the lies of his beloved Labor Party. He only recognizes a lie when it's told by someone he despises.
    TREBOR
    14th Jan 2019
    6:57pm
    Let's just all agree that all party politicians are liars who are ready to sell their arrr.. soles for the chance to get onto the gravy train.... or remain on it for life.

    It matters not how many holes they knock in the hull of GoodShip Australia - they will never lose one cent no matter how it pans out. The peasants can eat cake....
    TREBOR
    14th Jan 2019
    6:59pm
    .. oh - and core and non-core 'promises' needs to be amended to incorporate core and non-core lies....

    A great Howardism that one.... like Big Tony's 'Age of Entitlement'.... the spot where he's been living all his friggin' life.... so how would he know?
    GeorgeM
    14th Jan 2019
    8:04pm
    Yep, ...and, Yep.
    All we should all be doing is figuring out the punishment and how to mete it out! Maybe a YLC poll is needed for that!
    MICK
    14th Jan 2019
    9:13pm
    Spot on TREBOR and could not agree more George. Maybe save a special place for paid cash for comment. Would like to see these traitors of the nation go down as they deserve to do.
    Roy R
    14th Jan 2019
    9:14pm
    I have no faith in any politician, even before they open their mouths.
    Roy R
    14th Jan 2019
    9:15pm
    Politicians, past, present and (odds on) the future ... Australias true criminal class!
    TREBOR
    14th Jan 2019
    10:10pm
    You've been reading my dissertation on the Trebor Barbell - we have two groups of organised crime - criminal gangs as such on one side, government etc on the other ... and those are the 'bells' - the bar holding up both is the ordinary person in the middle...

    Then there is the dissertation on how police courts and legislators are an organised crime syndicate - a series of gangs... all dedicated to relieving the ordinary person of as much as possible with no comeback and without any repayment. Very much modern Sheriff of Nottingham stuff....
    Anonymous
    15th Jan 2019
    1:27pm
    Correct Trebor. Organized crime gangs are no different at all to police, political parties, lawyers and judges. The only difference is that some groups have managed to adjust legislation to make what they do unpunishable.
    ex PS
    15th Jan 2019
    8:37am
    Do politicians lie. Of course they do, they all do, if they didn't they would not get any votes.
    And that is what we need to examine here, what we have is the situation where when faced with the truth and told we may have to suffer a little for the benefit of our society we immediately shoot the messenger.
    Politicians lie because they are afraid to tell us the truth, mainly because it will mean their political demise. We do not want the truth, we can not handle the truth, we are as children who need the have the truth diluted with fairy tales in order to make it more palatable.
    I can handle a lie that is told for the good of the community, what I can't handle are lies told for the simple objective of getting re elected.

    16th Jan 2019
    7:17pm
    The problem in Australia isn't politicians who lie - though they all do and it would be nice if they stopped. It's ignorant and selfish voters who don't care about the lies, don't bother to examine policies and politician's statements critically and consider the impact on EVERYONE, but rather happily cast their vote either based on party loyalty, as if the parties were a football team, or based on their selfish wants and invalid assumptions about others.

    You would think that posters here would read what people say about their circumstances and worries and show some empathy and support - backing demands for policies that are fair and beneficial; asking questions and thinking through responses so that they LEARN THE FACTS, instead of ranting on with wild assumptions based solely on their own situation and with not the slightest care for anyone else, much less the national interest.

    There are a couple here who do take a genuine interest in facts and make respectful comments, showing consideration for the worries others express. But far too many can do nothing but rant about their 'opinions', all based on invalid assumptions and gross ignorance. And they vote based on those arrogant, ignorant assumptions. Geez, one here even suggests a battling retiree with an income less than the pension and very modest assets should be able to do what Kerry Packer does to get around cruel and unfair government policy changes!

    If people stopped thinking of themselves and paid attention to the risks policies impose on others and on the nation as a whole, and stopped swallowing (and regurgitating) lies without bothering to validate the truth, politicians would have to stop lying. But while ever gullible fools repeat the BS a mealy-mouthed lying politician utter as if it must be gospel, there is no hope for the nation.

    We have the opportunity, provided by YLC, to debate issues and expose facts, and to discuss the merits of possibly beneficial reforms. But instead all we see from more than half the posters is posts that make them appear to be mindless trolls.
    ex PS
    17th Jan 2019
    11:29am
    Valid points OGR, but some of us find it hard to look at and state the case through others eyes. Myself, I find it much easier to argue from experience, in that way I am confident that i am not inadvertently hitching opinion to a false claim.
    I always adhere to the principle of assuming that if a politicians lips are moving, they are probably lying, I then try and sieve out the relevant facts from the pile of drivel handed out. The first thing I generally ask myself, is does this statement make sense to me, unfortunately most does not. The same goes for those who will follow a particular political dogma no matter what.
    Anonymous
    17th Jan 2019
    11:54am
    I agree with all you say, ex PS. I guess what frustrates me is that when someone explains why they consider something is bad - either for them or for the nation generally - responses attack the individual, defend the party or the politician, or rant about how the issue doesn't affect them, instead of thinking about what is said and trying to take a wider view.

    It's not easy to look at anything through another's eyes - though we should all display empathy and try - but responses like 'well nobody I know has that sort or money' or 'just find an accountant or financial adviser...' or 'people who have that sort of money didn't pay their fair share of tax...' anger me, because it's so bad for the country for people to act on assumptions or purely motivated by self-interest.

    We all need to consider what is best for the nation. What does it matter which party promotes an idea or who puts it forward? What matters is the merit of the policy, and if people are objecting to it, then consider what they say carefully and try to understand where they are coming from. Maybe their experience or situation places them with different knowledge and it's worth learning from them. We can support a party or politician of choice without supporting all their policies. If we unite to tell them where they are going wrong, maybe we will make progress despite their lying! Maybe they will reduce their lying if they see that voters are intelligent, thinking people who examine policy critically rather than just responding to stupid slogans and propaganda. While envy and self-interest or party loyalty drives voters, we will have bad government.
    Misty
    17th Jan 2019
    4:42pm
    OGR YOU THINK I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE REFERRING TO WITH YOUR INNUENDOS, HOW ABOUT YOU SHOWING A BIT OF EMPATHY FOR A CHANGE.
    Anonymous
    17th Jan 2019
    5:44pm
    Feeling guilty about something, Misty?

    I just quoted comments that were offensive. I have plenty of empathy. I don't cheer policies that harm others and reply spitefully when they point out the unfairness. When I read posts from people who are doing it tough or being dealt a bad hand, I am ALWAYS sympathetic. And very quick to speak to politicians in defence of the rights of anyone, no matter what their situation.

    I just don't like people who are happy to see others hurt. And I firmly believe Australia needs voters who weigh issues objectively, pay attention to what others say about how proposed policies would affect them, debate intelligently, and tell politicians when they've got it wrong - no matter what party they belong to.
    Misty
    17th Jan 2019
    7:42pm
    I do not feel guilty about anything I have commented here OGR, unlike you I do not resort to name calling, bullying and insults and if you don't like the advice offered in good faith that is not my worry.
    ardnher
    17th Jan 2019
    8:13pm
    can someone come up with an alternative way to govern without politicians. would love to hear it.
    Anonymous
    18th Jan 2019
    7:54am
    ardnher, a party has come up with a way, but I don't see them getting any traction and I'm not sure it would ever work. There is a party (I forget the name) that is promoting the idea that all decisions would be made by a computerised referendum. They put forward costings and it works out very efficient from a cost perspective. The idea was that every eligible would be issued a unique voter code. When there is a decision to be made, there would be an objective advertisement made in which several people would explain the proposal and the pros and cons and then people would use their code to vote online either from their own computer or from computers installed in post offices and certain government buildings.
    Anonymous
    18th Jan 2019
    7:57am
    Misty, you aren't qualified to offer 'advice'. What you do is rant on excusing wrong and ignore the FACTS. It's not a matter of what I like or don't like. It's a matter of ignorant, gullible people supporting bad legislation based on LIES and MISREPRESENTATION and stuffing up the country and wrecking other people's lives because they are too damned IGNORANT and STUBBORN to pay attention to the FACTS.
    You do BULLY, because you continue to insist that it's fine for other people to suffer unfair hurt just because you like a political party and you are too stubborn to pay attention to the impact their policy will have. Words don't do much harm, but wiping out someone's livelihood... That's far worse than any 'bullying'.
    ardnher
    18th Jan 2019
    9:59am
    OGR...agree with you "it would not get any traction". For one thing there are so many in this coutry who could not be bothered, homeless, have no computer and would have no interest whatsover. Too confusing in my opinion.

    we are stuck with what we have
    Misty
    18th Jan 2019
    10:50am
    I wouldn't dream of offering you advice OGR, but you seem to be happy to keep giving me advice, who anyone votes for is none of your business, I do not tell you how to vote either, AND YOU ARE THE ONE DOING THE BULLYING, other people commenting here have noticed this also.
    Anonymous
    18th Jan 2019
    8:10pm
    Your words, Misty - 'if you don't like the advice offered in good faith'
    And you HAVE repeatedly. Bullied and badgered insisting that it's quite okay for people to be robbed of their savings and denied the lifestyle they earned, as long as the pensioner elite are looked after.
    Misty
    18th Jan 2019
    10:30pm
    What rot, stop complaining, nothing has happened yet, nothing has changed, and I will say it again, YOU ARE THE BULLY, YOU ARE THE ONE BADGERING EVERYONE TO VOTE YOUR WAY WELL IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
    Misty
    18th Jan 2019
    10:34pm
    Also I don't know where you get the idea that I have said it is ok for people to be robbed of their life savings etc as long as pensioners are looked after, YOU ARE PARANOID OGR, I do believe that people have the right to VOTE FOR WHO THEY LIKE, after all this is a free country still isn't it?.
    Adrianus
    19th Jan 2019
    10:30am
    You make some good points Rainey. I would think that possibly as many as 75% of voters are "stuck in the mud," "rusted on" to a party. It would not matter what their party says the majority of that 75% will go along.
    There is bias in most and there are reasons for the bias. Politicians are often guilty of "salesman's licence, knowing full well how statements are accepted by many in the audience. Many people lie to themselves.
    Adrianus
    19th Jan 2019
    10:39am
    The biggest lie I have seen was the Mediscare texts. That gave us a new low in political campaigning. When Morrison calls the election for the 11th May (in my opinion), I suspect we will see much more of these sort of lies because not enough of us called it out and a few were sucked in by it. Hard to imagine people being so gullible. There are scammers outside of politics as well, who make a living off these same people.
    Anonymous
    19th Jan 2019
    2:32pm
    Yes Adrianus, but the franking credits policy was sold to the gullible with some real doozies! People getting $25 million back in cash franking credit refunds???? The majority benefiting are retirees with more than $2.4 mil in super? (If that were true - (a) they would already be paying tax due to the TBC legislation; and (b) why attack people with way, way less than that? And then there's the ''it's welfare' - so let's ONLY give it to people who are already getting welfare and force hundreds of thousand more onto welfare by ripping them off on tax. Oh, it's NOT a tax. Then how come it's sent to the ATO by the company? How come it's refundable to those who pay income tax to avoid 'double tax'? Ah, it's ONLY tax if you pay income tax. So what is it if your taxable income is low? A GIFT to the tax office? It's still paid from the same source in the same way, and it reduces every shareholder's income by the same proportion, so how can it be tax in some instances and not in others?
    Anonymous
    19th Jan 2019
    2:45pm
    Misty, I never said anything about who to vote for. In fact, I've said that in some respects I'd prefer Labor to Liberal. I commented ONLY on POLICY. And your response was to support the policy. Vote how you please. I have no political affiliation or preferences. I despise both major parties and I'd be delighted to see the two party system abolished.

    I asked for support to object to a brutally unfair, cruel, and harmful policy. Nothing more. And you attacked me, ranting about how wonderful the Labor Party is and arguing that their policy was just fine - totally ignoring all of the issues I raised to highlight its flaws and raving about how you didn't know anyone with 'that much money', implying that it was perfectly fine for anyone not on a pension to be stripped of their livelihood unfairly, and passing on ENTIRELY WRONG advice that suggested the policy was fine and all I had to do was rearrange my finances (which is nonsense!). Oh, and raving about 'choices', as though it was perfectly okay for people who made responsible choices that benefit the country to suffer while the irresponsible are rewarded.

    And NO, it's NOT a free country. Sorry. Free in some respects and more so than many other nations, but NOT free. Happily, we are still free to speak our minds, which is why I asked members of YLC to support a reasoned objection to Labor's FC policy. NOT to change their vote or politics. Just to support a reasoned request to review a bad policy.'

    Mick is as strongly supportive of Labor as they come - so much so he's been called a 'troll'. But he was able to reply respectfully and considerately. I have NEVER suggested he should change his political preferences no insulted him for his choices (because he debates intelligently and with respect). Trebor actually argued in favour of the policy for a time, but eventually saw the logic of what I was saying and displayed empathy and respect - recognizing that it WAS wrong. You just kept attacking, and I'm not the only one who reads your comments as those of a jealous person who wanted to see others hurt. If that's not what was intended, I apologize for misunderstanding. You might have clarified instead of getting aggressive and repeating the same offensive comments.
    Misty
    19th Jan 2019
    3:32pm
    OGR I don't know what you think you have read or where but I have never lauded the Labor Party, all political parties have their good and bad points and I have never said the Labor Party policy on FC was ok, but surely most people would seek expert financial advice to see what they could change if they were to be affected and what rot you go on with about my saying I do not know anyone with a Million dollars means that it is fine, for people not on a pension, to be stripped of their livelihood unfairly, how on earth do you come to that conclusion I would like to know. I also have told you repeatedly that I am not jealous but you cannot seem to understand that, as for me being aggressive and offensive as you call it I am not going to allow anyone to bully me by calling me names, greedy, jealous are just 2 that come to mind without setting them straight, be it you OGR, or anyone else commenting here who thinks they can do this and get away with it.
    Misty
    19th Jan 2019
    3:35pm
    I think it is time to call an end to this discussion OGR, you just seem to want to read into my comments whatever suits you, I have clarified my comments many times over but they do not seem to sink in with you.
    Anonymous
    19th Jan 2019
    10:03pm
    I read what you wrote, Misty. "Do away with franking credits altogether''; "nobody I know has that sort of money'', "just find a good accountant or financial adviser''... I could go on, but why bother. Clearly you are never going to concede that your comments might have been offensive. You just keep accusing me of misreading them. If you are offended, it's my fault. If I'm offended, it's my fault. Misty is perfect. She could never do wrong.
    And I have sought advice - repeatedly, from multiple sources. ALL of the advisers come to the same conclusion. The policy is blatantly unfair and for many there is simply no solution at all.
    Adrianus
    21st Jan 2019
    8:47am
    Bill Shorten's "Franking Credit Policy" should be enough to keep him out of the lodge. This ex union boss has now revealed himself and his party to be unfit for government.
    Anonymous
    21st Jan 2019
    1:28pm
    True, Adrianus, but unfortunately the gullible majority are totally deceived by Shorten's lies claiming he is making the system fair (he's making it extremely UNFAIR); he's attacking the wealthy (no, he's attacking battlers - and leaving the wealthy alone); people who don't pay tax shouldn't get refunds (they DON'T. Nobody is getting tax back without it first having been deducted from their income. And if they aren't liable to pay tax, they should get it back)

    The majority just don't get it. And once they commit to supporting, there's no way they are ever going to back down and admit mistake. They just keep regurgitating the ALP's lies.
    anonysubscribe
    19th Jan 2019
    5:34pm
    The survey also showed that, in Australia, once politicians were caught out lying around four times, support for them declined.

    1 it seems we have a low ethical bar.
    could this affect the basic morality of society?
    ================================================
    A follow-up study in the US showed that even when politicians lied up to 80 per cent of the time, support for them barely wavered.

    it says a lot of the USA that they have worse ethical standards and only know how to abuse the trust of those weaker than themelves.
    no different from some of the neo fascist and dictatorial failed states around?
    a sorry state if this is the height of our civilised evolution.
    floss
    8th Apr 2019
    1:16pm
    I think Mick may be in front.