The Meeting Place

Security proposals for religious places of worship.

I think we all recoiled in horror over an Australian going on a killing spree in Christchurch. We all acknowledge that gut feeling of transferred shame yet having no part in it. 

The Scott Morrison somehow did the very thing that we should never do. That is 'Lock the gates and mistrust the world'.

When he stood there and pronounced $55 million for bollards and security cameras for religious places of worship in Australia I was dismayed. We can't wrap the world in cotton wool. The gun man walked through the doors in NZ and he was already on his own live TV. Nothing would have given the community a quicker response than the 36 minutes it took for the NZ police to apprehend the mentally deranged man.

This man chose a religion, some serial killers choose gays, some choose children, some choose women, one chose tourists visiting Port Arthur.

If CCTV cameras go up around places of worship we will immediately lose the sense of privacy in attending prayer. The government will know who and when people attend which place of worship. Are you sure this is what we want in exchange for curtainling to fear?

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It doesn’t take long kill people with automatic weapons so I can’t see how cameras in places of worship would stop anyone with murderous intent. Instead of devising these stupid thought bubbles, Scott Morrison who recently said “Asylum seekers (inferring Muslim or Middle Eastern) could be paedophiles, rapists or murderers” would do well to confront his own incendiary language designed solely to inspire fear and racist bigotry toward Muslims. Morrison must hate the fact that this awful tragedy has occurred in the run up to an election because I feel sure that he and the Coalition was planning to use ‘fear of boat people and weak borders’ as an election strategy against Labor and Greens. 

My god, we have lost the war on terrorism, and it was one of our own who struck the final blow.  A white, Australian born and bred man with a Christian upbringing.   (Based on the fact that that we all call this a predominatley Christian country.)

If this was a Muslim, many of us would be decrying the leaders of every Muslim community group for not immediatley condemming the perpetrator.  Do we not demand the same response from our own?  Or do we only set impossible standards for others?

It is time to drop this rediculous and devisive habit of classifying people by race, religion and political beliefs and declare, once we choose to make this country home there is just one lable we need apply and that is the lable of being Australian.

The thought of having to guard our places of worship just makes me feel like we have regressed to the level of a third world country, how did we and our so called leaders let it come to this?

Mentally derranged?  No, hate is not a mental illness, I refuse to give this gutter trash the dignity of having that excuse. People who have to suffer through mental illness have no choice, this coward did.

White Supremists are a cancer that has grown in this and many other so called modern societies, they are a cancer that has been fed by opportunistic vote seeking politicians and they have thrived on the often lightley veiled hate provided by the supporters of those politicians.  We need to cut out the cancer and deal with the sources that continue to feed them.

The next time I hear someone say "I don't have anything against ------- but" I will call them out, as soon as you hear but at the end of a sentence you can disregard what was said at the beginning.

Australia, we can do better.

So very well said ex PS. I will call them out too and yes, “Australia, we can do better”.

I'm with you too exPS, couldn't agree more.  Someone (can't remember who) said some time ago that whenever we hear the words "I'm not racist - but" we should show them our palm and say, "Stop right there" because nothing good ever comes after that." 

Unfortunately with the many restrictions on speech it’s necessary nowadays to qualify what you’re going to say before you say it.  There seems to be people who can find offence in the most ordinary comments and will run screeching to police, media etc with accusations of racism, sexism, vilification, religious persecution and anything else they can get attention with.

You might not like hearing “I’m not a racist,etc” but until you hear the end of the sentence you do not know what the person is about to say so you are not arguing from a position of knowledge.  

Well said ex PS

"You might not like hearing “I’m not a racist,etc” but until you hear the end of the sentence you do not know what the person is about to say so you are not arguing from a position of knowledge." ( Triss)


Excellent comment!


Triss, maybe I should make my point a little more clearly.  It's that blunt statement that annoys me.  It always feels to me a little like saying "I am about to say something which I know you will find offensive but I just don't care."  Maybe I am reading too much into it, wouldn't be the first time, but It does annoy me.

If I am about to say something that might be a little offensive I will own it without qualification.  I don't feel the need to say "I'm not a racist, but" first. If someone takes me to be a racist because of something I have said, that's their problem, not mine. 

I actually agree with you, up to a point, the whole debate is a minefield.  I was once called a racist because I made the comment that I found a particular brown person, who was in the news at the time, mildly irritating, and didn't even know that the name someone had called him was a racist slur.  I was given a very respectful lecture on what is appropriate these days and what is not by a much younger person, who was kindly making allowances for my age.  LOL

I happen to find more than a few white people irritating too, but that's ok, I can insult them with impunity on that particular forum, as do they.  I tried to point out the irony but they just didn't see it.

A great letter in the Sydney Morning Herald today:

It’s a shame it has taken such a bloody, awful tragedy for it to be said, but finally it can. After years of hearing various politicians and commentators tell us that political correctness has gone mad, that it’s OK to be a bigot and to watch those scoundrels enjoy electoral pay dirt on the back of racist, homophobic, misogynistic and intolerant hate speech, now it is clear. All this hatred and intolerance ends up in bloodshed. It always comes at the expense of civil society. Our Prime Minister’s miraculous conversion overnight couldn’t have come at a more opportune moment. There was every chance that this election was going to be fought over the same disgusting and divisive debates that have tainted our elections for some decades. For once, it just might not have to be that way.” - Anthony van den Broek, Erskineville

Roset, Ny19 and ex PS. Well said

Waiting for the police report, which is what the media and the usual talking heads should be doing instead of speculative gossip and making up stories from all sorts of angles.

The public is not well served by those who rush in with their ready-made politically-motivated narratives (from both sides). 

Brickbats to the feckless tabloid media and their nominated 'experts' who can always be relied upon to dumb-down their audiences and for once again doing a disservice to the public by nagging and spurring on politicians to respond with premature knee-jerk reactions.

Advice you would be well advised to follow.

 

No amount of cameras..bollards or similar "security" measures will stop a lone wolf attack.

Hate speech and the sale of high powered firearms may help to a certain extent..

Yes, Sophie I agree with you. That is where we should be targeting our efforts. 

Excepting for the fact that he had two drums of petrol in the car.  Remember Brisbane's Whiskey Au Go Go Mass Murder?

It is already known that NZ police intelligence failed.  There is a parallel with that Port Arthur grub.  In his case authorities were aware of him but he wasn't being watched and assessed. 

Police intelligence is hampered through lack of resources.  

Would removing the cheese help? They are social misfits, self-acknowledged social rejects who are striking back at society (includes a large section of society) to demonstrate and flaunt their 'power'.  But what if the feckless media and others with a secondary agenda gained some ethics and principles and ensured that these dangerous grubs didn't get all of that sensationalist publicity for themselves and their idiotic complaints?

It should be possible to report these awful crimes by concentrating on the victims and solely reporting the crucial facts of the murders, that is, by not dwelling on the murderer to give him the publicity and platform he desperately wanted.  Use their names as little as possible.  This is easily done by cooperating with police who don't want their investigations and possible witnesses contaminated with media speculation and sensationalism.

These grubs are choosing the victims, tool/s and timing with their first regard for maximising their publicity and notoriety.  Deny them that to deter others.  Deny them that anyhow, why should the media and the equally unprincipled and ignorant commentariat be delivering for them what these animals want?  

....  "what these ANIMALS want"?????   Bad choice of words there!  Appalling in fact!

Why are you taking this so personally foxrot???Is it because you are an omnivore?

 

LJ is right, people who commit these acts are not only animals, they are worse than animals.

LOL -  coming from a nasty lil ugly yellow "thing" like you?  Why do you feel the need to stick your BIG nose in and reply to every post I write?  

I think you are in awe of me - you follow me around like some besotted lil "yellow thingy" lololol    Shouldn't you be in bed right now?  Up late for an old Troll.......

 

What beastly behaviour foxy :((((

Btw, I know that bakery owner whom you were trying to have a punch up with today. He tells me, you're going to be banned for being rude to his staff.

The NZ PM has the right idea, she will not even mention this cowards name, we should all follow this example.  We should also get together and make her an offer, New Zealands loss would certainly be our gain.

Crowd sourcing a Prime Minister may be our best bet.  

The Australian police were obviousley focussing on the wrong people, Ultra Right Wing White Supremests should be moved further up the watch list.

 

 

 

 

 

 

ex PS ... heard a guy being interviewed last night on ABC (didn't get name) said:  It should be mandatory for all Gun Shop owners to report sales of "specialised weapons" to police etc. so it can be followed up as to why individual's needed to purchase them.

He also said that the fact this killer wasn't a permanent resident of NZ (and would have had to produce a Victorian licence as to proof of name etc...) - he should not have been allowed to purchase anyway - also - these semi-automatic weapons were designed for "Military operations" only and why did this gun shop owner stock them?

OK in hindsight I guess ........also the remaining stock of AK-15's were sold out within the next 24 hours!    Nice!!

Do NZ police know who purchased them and why??

These specific guns should be confiscated and the people given their money back!  Just my opinion ............

Luckily in Australia you have to send a Permission to Acquire Form to the appropriate Department before you can purchase a firearm, in that application you have to state the calibre, action type and the reason for acquiring.  This can take from a week to months and there is no guarantee that it will be approved.

Under Howards changes I surrenderd two semi automatic weapons and was compensated far more than I paid, so was happy with that.  What I was not happy with was the many minor unpublicised changes that were made that made it illegal for me to possess several other rifles that were not compensatable.

Many people in the same position did not give up those rifles, as it was a financial loss and many ended up in the wrong hands.  Unfortunatley because these firearms were illegal, if stolen, they were not reported to police and became and still are a hazard to those who unwittingly came across a criminal who had them in there possesion.

Howard did the right thing in getting semi auto rifles off the streets, but as usual for governments he went too far.  I personally will not trust the government again when it comes to gun reform.

Foxy, my understanding is that the gunmanm legally bought his guns (4 in fact) from Gun City which is the largest gun shop in the world. The gunman passed the tests and had the correct documentation. The gunman was also a member of a local gun club and even had his own key to it to come and go when he pleased (as do other members). You might also like to know that NZ allows the sale of many arms not permitted here including AK47s to the general public!

There has been no suggestion that the gun shop did anything wrong. That is why NZ is now urgently reviewing the gun ownership/sale laws, which I may add the gun shop fully supports.

The idiom used is an old one, where we are shaken to the core, unable and unwilling to countenance that a human might commit such despicable acts of cruelty.  The amorality challenges any understanding of the essential nature of being human.   'Beast' is another choice.  But then someone could be offended on behalf of animals because beast could imply that the animal is 'large' or has other unattractive or less dignified manners.

The old term is apt for this monster.

It is odd that we compare mass murderers to animals. Apart from a rabid dog I don't know of any animal that kills in this manner and when they do its mainly for food.

You should ask farmers or read DPI reports about the damage done by wild dogs and domestic dogs.  Domestic dogs allowed to roam free can quickly revert to pack behaviour and tear stock apart.  Not for food, they just keep ripping at farm animals in paddocks and leave them with udders torn off, guts spilling out, crippled and smaller animals dead.  The breed of the dog doesn't matter, we had to deal with all breeds.

Domestic cats do the same thing with wildlife, but solo.  

However as explained previously, the idiom isn't comparing humans with animals as such.  It is referring to the apparent amorality of fiends.  

 

Back to the thread..

I object to ANIMALS being used as an explanation of these despicable hateful low lives. 

Animals have more empathy than humans and other than CATS don't kill for pleasure. 

LJ it is not intelligence reporting that has failed it is the medical assessment. Psychopaths don't flick a switch. They spend years escalating their behaviour. The trick - which I would say is almost impossible to determine - which young adolescent is going to progress into a monster.

I think our money would be much better spent on controlling social media commentary, gun laws and mental health facilities.

 

Great comment Rosret ....agree wholeheartedly!

Yes..a lot more funds should be allocated to mental illness and the people who need it most should be made to access it.

Rosret,

You are denying the role and value of intelligence in police work. 

Regrettably, the bulk of these fiends are not psychopaths.  They are sane.  The Port Arthur murderer had low (ie marginal) IQ but that is not a 'mental problem'.

Their dreadful acts are payback for a society that didn't bow to their wishes and deliver what they wanted.  The media and political opportunists deliver the personal recognition, the notoriety and glorification that they are seeking.  If the media and politicians could model professionalism and restraint and NOT sensationalise the incidents (for their own secondary agendas!) that removes the cheese for any potential copycats. 

The NZ PM is doing the right thing, bless her.  She is not tempted as so many Oz media outlets and opportunist lobbyists are to wade through the blood, scoring political points.

Rosret,

I should also have stated my agreement with you and ors.  In that both sides of politics did the wrong thing years ago in selling off Commonwealth rehab and mental health assets.  The institutions sold off, for instance, the sheltered workshops, provided a necessary predictable safe place and things to do and relief for relatives and carers of course.  

What can families and police do now where they are faced with someone suffering mental issues and many do through alcohol and other drugs.  Some end up confronting police with weapons and what can be done then where they persist with their threat?  Earlier intervention with some place to go is needed.

Just wanted to perhaps clear something up. There are some animals that kill for pleasure and not particularly for food, they are called thrill killers and the term used is “surplus killing.”

These are just some of the animals that kill just for the “fun” of it: martens, weasels, honey badgers, wolves, orcas, red foxes, leopards, lions, spotted hyenas, spiders, brown, black, and polar bears, coyotes, lynx, mink, raccoons, dogs, housecats and of course some humans.

Source: National Geographic/Nature

Many years ago when my boys were in Primary School, just after the children marched in to their classrooms, I was walking up to the shops when I noticed a scruffy man walking towards the school, carrying an axe. I followed him and he disappeared in to the hall and smashed the statue of Mother Mary. He then proceeded to walk casually up to the laneway and threw the axe to the ground. I immediately told the Principal who then called the police. It turned out he was an inmate of Callan Park, a psychiatric hospital in Sydney, who was let out on day release. Who knows where he found the axe.?

It just goes to show, we don't know where these people come from, but I always told my boys to be on the alert for strangers. 

 

The first person to die at the mosque in Christchurch was the person left by the gate to welcome strangers to the mosque with a 'hello brother'!

Hola - there an entirely different story behind that one and I would be reflecting on the Royal commission we just conducted.

I refer to serial killers as being VERMIN.  Not animals.

I think what really annoys me about all of this is that when the tourists in Port Arthur were attacked the issue didn't become the tourists. When these mad men hit schools the children aren't the issue.

Its not about Muslims - this horrible person just chose them as his target. - Its about him and people like him no matter what the target. 

Rosret,

Totally agree.

The point Rosret here is that at Port Arthur Martin Bryant was killing anyone he saw irrespective of who they were. In NZ the kiiling was delberately targeted at Muslims. The killer was projecting his hatred and through his "manifesto" and video making a political statement. This is why it appears high likely he will be charged plainly and simply with murder and not terrorism as the court case based on terrorism charges would give him a platform to spew out his vitriol.  He is defending himself.

The point Rosret here is that at Port Arthur Martin Bryant was killing anyone he saw irrespective of who they were. In NZ the kiiling was delberately targeted at Muslims. The killer was projecting his hatred and through his "manifesto" and video making a political statement. This is why it appears high likely he will be charged plainly and simply with murder and not terrorism as the court case based on terrorism charges would give him a platform to spew out his vitriol.  He is defending himself.

New Zealand really has this one sorted. So glad they didn't need to waste money on a lawyer for him. With each charge run consecutively I would hope they lock him up and throw away the key for life.

Tom - psychopaths do like a "type". Take a look at some of the worst serial killings. They plan their strategies and delight in the suffering.

What is the right response, the one the Turkish president has just made, the one that the majority of media outlets are going with ie as much coverage as possible, including covering senator Anning’s hate speech, if no media turned up then there is no story, violence is something that shouldn’t be given the media coverage that it currently does, but unfortunately it sells airtime and newspapers, how many reporters from around the world have turned up in NZ to spread this horrific story, and how many reporters have turned up in Nigeria, last year thousands of christians have been tortured murdered and raped, just in the last 4 weeks 280 christians have been murdered in Nigeria after their homes were set alight and they were butchered as they tried to escape the flames, there doesn’t seem to be as much outrage, why would that be, I am not a racist but! Violence is never the answer, we should never tolerate violence no matter where it happens, and it’s easy to blame mental illness, I am not an expert on the subject of mental illness, but I believe evil exists, is it all part of being mentally ill, I have no idea.

I agree, Jim. How quick was Walid Ali (The project) to post the rogue senators comments to incite division and conflict. - and he did. How quickly did politicians (globally) turn this into a soap box edition.

It is possible to diffuse issues and grieve with those who have lost their loved ones.

This is not a racist issue nor is it an immigration issue. Its a psychopath (or evil) issue and how we deal with people like this in the community. If everyone wishes to stir the fear and intimidation bucket it will bubble over. However we didn't stop teenagers going to discos with the whisky-a go-go massacre or tourists coming to Port Arthur after their horrific massacre. If anyone has concerns about Australia's immigration policy then don't link it to THIS massacre they are not connected.

ISIS has jumped on the bandwagon and are calling for revenge!

You avoid discussion of the issue Rosret.  This is what the muslim community also does preferring to run the victim game to avoid confronting why muslim society is on the nose with some Australians.

I continue to call on muslims in this country to contront the increasing lawlessness of some of its citizens and the perception that we are all infidels who are worth nought.  When we do this I'll accept that muslims are our 'brothers and sisters'.  Of course whenever one posts anything which this cohort does not want to read you get the routine 'racism' , 'hatred' and 'islamaphobic' attacks from the very people who seek to hide the facts we see play out in the media every other night.  Don't even get me started on young muslims who left Australia and went to join IS.

You may have herd what Turkish dictator Erdogan had to say today Rosret.

Lets stop talking the talk of us against them with the attacks on anybody who tries to bring this community to account.  Its high time we started talking the talk about behaviour and expectations without being branded all sorts of thisngs which are simply not true other than in the minds of those whoese intentions are to avoid the same scrutinky we expect of ANY citizen.

Extremists of any bent are the enemy Mick. The rest of us are just normal, peace loving folk regardless of what faith we follow (or don’t follow). There is much ugliness in the Christian Old Testament but many Christians pay it no heed, seeing it for what it is...nonsensical, ugly, centuries old hogwash. Those who do take it seriously could be said to be rather extreme in their interpretations and devotion. I think it is very likely the same for most Muslims in that they pick and choose what to believe and follow in the Koran and what to pay no heed. Same for Jews and all religions.

We need to hold extremists to account and in this latest act of terror, the white supremacists. We also need to hold our politicians to account when they play the race card for political gain. I repeat, extremists are the enemy and politicians who enable them for political ends are not serving their people, they are leading poorly, letting us all down and they must be held accountable. 

 

Need to clarify that politicians enable when they highlight notions of tribalism. Jacinda Ardern is doing the opposite and showing the world what a true leader is. She puts our so called ‘leaders’ to shame!

 

You clearly DID NOT UNDERSTAND my post Ny19 or did not read it.

What makes you think I am not a peace loving person?  Because I dare to write there is a problem?  You post sounds more like a part of the problem seeking to hide any discussion, standing around the proverbial camp fire singing Kumbaya. 

Your reference to the Old Testament is of course factual but you may consider that islam takes EVERY word in their version of the OT quite seriously and will do what the mufti instructs them to do.  Some of that is hatred towards other Australians. 

Remember the speaches from a cleric inciting hatred towards us with the "uncovered meat" description of young women who wore swimsuits?  And have you gorgotten where Kurtis Chang's kill was groomed and sent to do his murderous work?  Yes, a mosque.

I am a peave loving person but unlike your denial of the facts I want to see dialogue between muslim and mainstream Australians so that the criminals in the islamic community are ratted out and the acceptance of us comes about despite we not believing in islam.  That is of course not on the agenda and need to ask why?  I can hardly wait for the routine cries of 'racism', 'hate speech', 'islamophobia' and the other shut down debate terminology to avoid fixing a problem we are all aware of.

By all means take the moral high ground but how about avoiding the BS and helping to fix the things which divide us.  Too hard?  Not politically correct?  I thought so!

Yes, she is excellent. Now if our media could take her lead we might just calm things down a notch.

Mick - I understand what you are saying. However this man was watching and learning how to be a serial killer. He chose a target. What the community feels about our immigration policy is a conversation for another time. We don't want any more people to die for absolutely no reason.

Mick,

Please cite where I said you are not a peace loving person. I did not! I made no mention personally of you anywhere in my response. Your first paragraph shows that in fact, you did not understand my input. I could easily counter every point you have made about Muslims but quite frankly, I can’t be bothered. Suffice to say, I stand by what I said: extremism is the enemy. Muslim and non Muslim, we all need to counter extremist views and hate speech.

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