13th Dec 2017
The disappearance of Australian banknotes could be nigh
Author: Olga Galacho
Will banknotes soon disappear?

The central bank yesterday confirmed that banknotes’ days are numbered, as the viability of electronic currency evolves.

Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) Governor Phillip Lowe told the 2017 Australian Payment Summit that the central bank “has been giving considerable thought as to what the future (of currency) might look like”.

“Does the RBA intend to issue a digital form of the Australian dollar? Let’s call it an eAUD. The short answer to this question is that we have no immediate plans to issue an electronic form of Australian dollar banknotes, but we are continuing to look at the pros and cons,” Mr Lowe said.

The Governor set out four ways that electronic money could be introduced as a standard currency:

  • Through banks issuing specialised accounts that did not rely on standard cash deposits for payments;
  • Using an electronic form of banknote issued by the RBA and distributed by financial institutions;
  • The RBA could offer every Australian an exchange settlement account with easy, low-cost payments function;
  • The RBA might issue a new form of digital money – a variation on exchange settlement accounts – perhaps using distributed ledger technology.

“There will be a further significant shift to electronic payments, but there will still be a place for banknotes, although they will be used less frequently,” Mr Lowe said.

Evidence that paper money is disappearing from the economy is growing. In 2007, RBA research found that cash accounted for about 70 per cent of household transactions. Almost a decade later, this has fallen to 37 per cent.

Another measure of the decline of cash was the number of withdrawals from ATMs, which had slumped 25 per cent in the past eight years. This was coupled with a sharp uptake in paying with debit and credit cards in the same period.

Meanwhile, Mr Lowe downplayed the rise of cryptocurrencies, such as bitcoin, describing them as “more like a speculative mania than … an efficient and convenient form of electronic payment”.

The RBA will keep the introduction of electronic currency under review, saying one development it was considering was the use of “tokens” to be stored in digital wallets and used for payments in a similar way that banknotes are used.

“Another possible change that some have suggested … would be for the central bank to issue every person a bank account – for each Australian to have their own exchange settlement account with the RBA,” Mr Lowe said. “In addition to serving as deposit accounts, these accounts could be used for low-cost electronic payments.”

He said it “remained an open question” whether a strong case emerged for the development of these systems. 

Opinion: Failure to regulate puts Australians’ savings at risk

While the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) has not necessarily pinned its colours to any electronic currency mast yet, Governor Phillip Lowe’s predisposition to allowing the private sector free rein in this space is worrying.

Throughout his speech, Mr Lowe suggested it was preferable for private financial institutions to take the lead in managing a future cash-less society.

Then in concluding, he pointed to two pressing problems that exist within the current electronic banking and payments system:

  • The need to address rising rates of fraud in card-not-present transactions;
  • The need to develop a strong system of digital identity that can be used in the financial sector, and perhaps elsewhere.

And again, he said he favoured private sector solutions to these fiascos, which have cost Australians millions of dollars in scams and stolen identities.

“The (RBA) board’s preference is that this progress be made by industry participants, without the need for regulation,” he said.

Without the need for regulation? Are you kidding me? How many more millions need to be stolen from Australians, mostly older ones who are specifically targeted by scammers, before a government authority steps in and reads the riot act to banking institutions? 

And for a central bank to contemplate the development of an electronic currency with a distant nod and a wink is just not good enough. The RBA has more than a middling vested interest in ensuring that any system which replaces cash has processes and checks and balances in place to ensure consumers are not ripped off.

Mr Lowe said it himself: “So, while a privately issued eAUD (electronic Australian dollar) is conceivable, experience cautions that there are significant difficulties and dangers associated with privately issued fiat money.”

In fact, the day before the Governor’s address, no other than the US Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) “warned bitcoin and other cryptocurrency investors to beware of scams and criminal activity in the sector”.

“A number of concerns have been raised regarding the cryptocurrency and initial coin offerings markets, including that, as they are currently operating, there is substantially less investor protection than in our traditional securities markets, with correspondingly greater opportunities for fraud and manipulation,” said SEC chair Jay Clayton.

But in common with Australia’s own financial authorities, the SEC is dragging its feet on regulating the emerging sector. In South Korea, on the other hand, virtual currencies have been banned.

One hopes that until consumers are confident their savings are well protected that Australia will take a leaf out of the no-nonsense South Korean book before we are all left relying on money that can so easily disappear before our very eyes.

Have you ever invested in cryptocurrencies, such as bitcoin? If so, were the returns worth it? Would you welcome a totally cash-less society? Do you miss handling money on an everyday basis?

Related articles:
Can bitcoin boost savings?
Online Visa scams
Cardless transactions on the rise





    COMMENTS

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    SuziJ
    14th Dec 2017
    10:06am
    Get real!!!!! This would be in the same vein as the 'cashless welfare card'.

    How on earth are we supposed to pay for take away food when there's a cost to us for transactions under a certain amount (given by the establishment), or if the establishment doesn't accept cards? I know of several take away shops that don't accept card transactions at all, and some that have a lower limit for no fee ($10 in one, and $20 in another). This means that if I was purchasing fish & chips for $8 in the first establishment on a card, then I'd have to pay a 50c surcharge, and in the second, I was to purchase a dinner for one costing $15.40, then I'd also have to pay a 50c surcharge to use my card.

    I've always paid for my groceries by cash, and will do so well into the future. When I withdraw this cash, I also withdraw my fortnightly 'spending' money so that I won't have to pay ridiculous fees just to get a take away meal, or bread & milk when I need it.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    10:21am
    I don't buy or eat takeaway food as it's just not food any more.
    AutumnOz
    14th Dec 2017
    11:15am
    Agreed SuziJ, it is a ridiculous situation when people who only spend a dollar or two are expected to produce a debit or credit card to pay for the purchase.
    I also do my grocery shopping and withdraw money at the supermarket in the largest town in our area. Our local shop cannot afford the charges made by banks and credit card companies so does not accept cards only cash.
    Hasbeen
    14th Dec 2017
    11:23am
    Me too SuziJ! I pay for my groceries with a debit card, & draw my fortnightly spending money as cash out at the same time. This is the simplest & most foolproof method of budgeting there is. If everyone used it, there would be no credit card debt, ever.

    Me too old Geezer, well almost. I still occasionally buy a Chinese when I'm batching. It does appear to be real food, & my local Chinese is so generous that a meal does me a couple of nights, with still a treat left over for the dog.

    I discovered that my bank can not separate your banking, with the details to any one account they virtually invite you into all the rest. I opened a new a/c with a different bank for paying bills by phone, & by Pay Pal, & under no circumstances ever put any banking details or card numbers on the net.

    My wife who thinks I am being pedantic, & a bit silly has twice had her card used overseas. Yes she was refunded the money after a while, but it is just not worth the hassle.
    Tib
    14th Dec 2017
    12:07pm
    I believe it's now illegal to charge more than it costs to do business using a card. Which it turns out is a very small charge and most businesses around here have dropped the surcharge. But if we went over to a cashless society it's either do business by card or no business at all.
    I don't think it will happen.
    One thing though it will probably be the end of the black economy, no cash deals done under the table.
    'Hasbeen" did you mean to say you have a little left over dog when you go Chinese? Just kidding! I think.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    1:01pm
    Haven't you noticed that when the Chinese get short of cat and dog meat the cats and dogs go missing?
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    14th Dec 2017
    2:06pm
    OG, you are SICK. Your imagination is playing tricks on your mind. You seriously need help. Most Chinese restaurants in Australia serve very good quality food, and are very conscious of our health regulations. If you can't find good quality take-away food, you aren't looking. We are very selective, but there are plenty of fish and chip shops and other fast-food outlets that serve nutritious and tasty food. We cook our own 99% of the time, and grow our own where practical, but I've travelled all over Australia and enjoyed good food in restaurants and from takeaways everywhere I've been. But then, I think I recall you rubbishing the food on cruises, and on the one I went on recently it was absolutely first class, and 3000 passengers agreed with that assessment so I seriously doubt it's a case of my judgement being less valid than yours.
    Tib
    14th Dec 2017
    2:09pm
    OG no sense of humour have they :)
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    2:31pm
    Agree life is way too short to be so serious.
    Anonymous
    14th Dec 2017
    2:58pm
    Some of you need to get into the 21st century
    Using your debit card or credit card for all payments is the common sense method of payment - not cash
    Am especially happy that I don’t have that darned 5 and 10 cent pieces to deal with
    Tib
    14th Dec 2017
    3:24pm
    Raphael I agree but I don't think it will happen. I only use cash when I have to and do my banking and bill paying online. A wallet full of change will give you a sore arse and a bad back. ;) I won't be disappointed if they get rid of cash.
    Greg
    14th Dec 2017
    11:35pm
    Hey calm down people, this isn't happening today, it's in the future and retailers would have to change and accept electronic payments. Also you would find that charges for these transactions would be eliminated by the banks - having no cash in circulation would be a huge cost saving to the banks. It's very expensive business transporting/protecting/accounting for cash.

    I always use my card for groceries, including a litre of milk at Coles - no fees at all.
    Old Geezer
    15th Dec 2017
    10:50am
    I wish it was happening today so that they could control that black economy which is costing us heaps in lost taxes.
    Rae
    15th Dec 2017
    4:24pm
    I'm not sure OG having had a very bad experience where it was possible the money and credit would be unavailable. It's not real.

    You know that don't you. Even cash is only an exchange representing a call on the notes.

    I can't ever see the US going cashless and so we'd end up buying and using US dollars. That would be silly.
    AutumnOz
    15th Dec 2017
    7:14pm
    Geezer, will you please explain what you mean by the black economy.
    I have heard a lot of different explanations from many people and most of those explanations are rather silly.
    One example said if I gave a neighbour a few tomatoes for walking my dog it was an example of the black economy that was robbing the government of taxes. There were several others that were just as silly.
    What is your explanation?
    AutumnOz
    15th Dec 2017
    7:18pm
    Rae, if the US went cashless their economy would crash because of all the minimum wage jobs that are made up to a living wage by the tipping system.
    Waitresses and pizza delivery drivers spring to mind. There are many many more on minimum wages that count on tips to make the difference between being able to eat after paying the rent.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    16th Dec 2017
    9:44am
    I'd be urging the government to address tax avoidance by big corporations before I'd worry over the comparatively trivial amount dodged by dealing in cash. But then the privileged always want to milk stones to balance the budget rather than address theirs and their buddies' huge contribution to the problem. The ''black economy'' is comprised mainly of battlers swapping goods or selling home-grown vegetables or eggs and minor services for cash. There might be a few who can get away with extensive undocumented cash transactions, but most are careful to ensure their cash dealings are very small relative to their properly documented transactions. With credit and debit card use so common and sophisticated cash registers that record everything, making an undocumented transaction isn't nearly as easy as it once was, but shifting billions to a tax haven - no challenge at all!
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    4:03pm
    Black economy is anywhere you fail to disclose your earnings. Tradesman does a job for a pensioner cheap in return for cash payment. Builder does a job over $1000 for cash as then he doesn't have to have a contract and wants full payment in cash before job is even started. With contract only 10% is payable upfront. If you nornally sell eggs and barter them then it is un disclosed income. If ones gets a refund for goods and then onsells those goods for cash. Many big companies do this in third world countries. Many such goods get dumped here in Australia too. Mobile phone have different models for some phone depending where they are sold. Same phone bought in Hong Kong is less than half the price they are sold for in Australia. Many goods at markets are sold for cash that is never disclosed. Tv's etc sold in pubs are classic black market.
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    4:05pm
    It has been estimated that the black economy accounts for about 50% of all transaction made in Australia today.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    16th Dec 2017
    4:24pm
    What utter rubbish, unless the ''black economy'' includes all the corporate tax avoidance and tax dodging by the wealthy - very little if any of which would be stopped by abolishing cash. But it's typical of the wealthy that if there's a problem, they'll find a way to blame it on the battlers and avoid accountability.
    AutumnOz
    16th Dec 2017
    4:34pm
    Bonny you must live on a different planet to the one I live on. I've never heard of most of the things you mention nor do I hang out in pubs have not been offered a TV.

    Many tradies offer a senior's discount but that is usually only offered if the Senior Card holder offers the tradie three to four hours work.

    I have never had a tradesman ask for payment in cash nor do I know anyone who has.

    As for Market stall holders - they pay for a stall fee and it is all recorded usually under the auspices of a charity, some stall holders do not even make enough money to cover the stall fee.

    However, I now realise my daughter and I have been guilty of a form of black marketeering. I grow vegetables and fruit and she has chooks so she swaps me eggs for vegetables.

    Is there no end to the nit picking, assumptions of dishonesty by people and/or implied government interference in people's lives.
    AutumnOz
    16th Dec 2017
    4:36pm
    I've never heard of most of the things you mention nor do I hang out in pubs have not been offered a TV
    CORRECTION
    So have not been offerent a TV
    Old Geezer
    18th Dec 2017
    11:28am
    Bonny is right. If you want a job done around here it's done for cash or you just wait and wait and wait. Lots of stuff changes hands in pubs and another great place for a bargain is Bunnings carpark but you have to be in the know for times etc.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    18th Dec 2017
    4:09pm
    No end to the nit picking and assumptions of dishonesty, AutumnOz, because the rich know their greed is the problem but they have to find a way to deflect the blame.

    I've built three houses over the past few years - two in new subdivisions where all the neighbours were also building. I have NEVER been invited to pay cash and neither has a single one of my neighbours. All the tradesmen asked for bank transfer or credit cards payment. And all issued GST invoices long before anyone had an opportunity to suggest a cash transaction. Several commented that they could not afford a cash trx unless it was very, very small because they have to pay for stock and pay labour rates to assistants and cash receipts would leave them short to pay their outgoings. Also, the ATO checks supply purchases against declared income and can quickly detect if someone is collecting cash revenue because they know what ratios apply in each trade.

    These claims of extensive cash dealings are BLATANT LIES.
    Old Geezer
    18th Dec 2017
    7:29pm
    Wow Rainey there is whole other world out there you have no idea about.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    19th Dec 2017
    11:02am
    Oh, I know about it, OG. I know about the SCUM who live in it and how they behave. And they are NOT struggling vegie sellers or tradesmen. They are corporate thieves and wealthy individuals hiding millions in overseas tax havens. Those dealing in cash deal in tiny amounts, because larger amounts will ALWAYS be detected.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    10:20am
    I can't remember the last time I actually used cash as I buy everything electronically. I even write cheques for National Park campsites.

    Blockchain transactions are the way of the future with the ASX settlement changing from Chess to blockchain for settlements.
    Cowboy Jim
    14th Dec 2017
    10:27am
    Did not know that cheques are still accepted anywhere, last time
    I wrote one was about 20 years ago. Thanks for telling me, Old Geezer.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    10:37am
    Yes I prefer to put a cheque in the National Park collection boxes or pay online.
    Hasbeen
    14th Dec 2017
    11:29am
    A number of local traders who know me prefer payment by cheque. It saves them the card cost.
    Cowboy Jim
    14th Dec 2017
    10:22am
    Heard all that years ago, Norway being cashless and all that, was over there last August and
    everywhere we went cash was in use. Hotel bills were settled by credit card.
    Came into Airlie Beach early this year on a cruise ship out of Singapore. The town was
    without power and no card worked, only cash gave you a drink and a feed, some of us still had US$ in our pockets but nobody wanted to take them from Aussie passengers.
    Last week came back from outback Queensland and everyone there was keen on cash payments, specially smaller notes. Use a credit or debit card at Aldi and you pay extra.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    10:36am
    No charge for debit card transactions at Aldi unless you use tap and go. My tap and go has been disabled on all my cards.

    I have also travelled through out back Queensland about six months ago and bought everything electronically as most preferred it that way as they didn't want to handle cash.
    arbee
    14th Dec 2017
    10:48am
    This looks like big brother control to me. I would assume if this was introduced then the Central bank would also monitor all of our transactions. I can for see a situation in the future where centrelink would then decide what each pension would be depending on each individuals spending records.
    AutumnOz
    14th Dec 2017
    11:23am
    Scary thought isn't it?
    Nan Norma
    14th Dec 2017
    1:13pm
    I'm with you, a great loss of freedom will come with a cashless society. Would it mean children have to have a card to get pocket money?
    Anonymous
    14th Dec 2017
    3:00pm
    Wow - so many live in an alternative universe
    Greg
    14th Dec 2017
    11:27pm
    What do you have to hide???
    TREBOR
    15th Dec 2017
    6:27am
    It isn't a matter of hiding anything, Greg - it's a matter of not allowing someone to abuse absolute knowledge of what people are doing and use it to control them.

    In no way is such activity the mandate of government.
    TREBOR
    15th Dec 2017
    6:31am
    Nobody wants a government saying :- "Oh - you bought a case of beer online- you don't need that on a pension or retirement scheme and it will be better for your health not to have it - we'll take that cost back out of your next payment, and this information lends itself to the idea of cutting pensions" - or anything of the kind...

    Don't laugh... this asylum is currently being run by the inmates...
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    16th Dec 2017
    4:33pm
    Actually, Trebor, that's EXACTLY what the King OG's and Queen Bonny's of this world DO want. They think anyone who has faced a catastrophe without hundreds of thousands of dollars in reserve should be forced into a miserable half-life and never permitted the tiniest shred of enjoyment. It feeds their sense of superiority and their hunger for power to stamp on everyone who suffers misfortune of any kind.
    maelcolium
    14th Dec 2017
    10:49am
    Won't happen. The underpinning value of fiat is the ability of a sovereign Government to create currency demand by regulating that taxation be paid in the fiat and nothing else. That is how the monetary system is structured and it will continue to be so unless we revert to representative currency where any citizen can convert the current into another medium. What the RBA Governor is talking about is not the removal of sovereign power in issuing of currency but the removal of physical tokens and instead relying on electronic tokens. We only need to think about the demonetisation experiment disaster in India to see that it is a huge leap and not a simple matter of the removal of notes and coin from circulation. Lowe is a fool for evening giving this thought bubble oxygen.
    BrianP
    14th Dec 2017
    10:51am
    Another step in the wrong direction to widen the gap between rich and poor. Encourages more corruption as well.
    Rosret
    14th Dec 2017
    11:10am
    Well BrianP I must admit I am pondering avoidance here. I don't like being tracked at every turn.
    How much the kids get as pocket money, what I buy people for Xmas gifts and birthdays, when I buy them. I don't like the fact my train travel is tracked or I can't buy a theatre ticket without ID.
    We are not that corrupt a society that this much vigilance is necessary - it smacks of Nazi mentality. It needs a name of its own. The people who control the economy want full control of the consumer and employees.
    It is serious - very troubling - and yes, corruption will follow. Not because people are doing anything wrong - they just don't want this level of big brotherism. - Ah a term "Brotherist"! (- needs work methinks)
    Rosret
    14th Dec 2017
    10:59am
    Well there you go - total privacy - gone.
    I think we should fight that one to the end.
    I looked up my IGA rewards website the other day. It told me how much I had spent and what day but then gave me a break down of the salt, sugar, fat content of my purchases. For the measly monetary return of loyalty they just stepped well over the mark.
    - Guess what is going to happen with electronic cash cards - TAX, TAX and more TAX.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    1:03pm
    Get rid of that loyalty card as that's where they are getting your info from. You know the one that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside as you are contributing to your community.
    Puglet
    14th Dec 2017
    2:37pm
    OG is right Rosret the companies use ‘loyalty cards’ to collect private information about us. Businesses make more profits from us and we don’t really get anything for selling our ‘souls’ to them. Many of them (Oz post for example) sell this data to other companies. Google etc already collect and sell the same info and I know I’m losing the battle but I still do my best to make it hard as possible.
    Old Man
    14th Dec 2017
    11:06am
    No Olga, the central bank yesterday didn't confirm that banknotes’ days are numbered, in fact they said there will still be a place for banknotes, although they will be used less frequently. Why do the writers in this forum continue to try and scare people by telling lies.

    Australia thrives on the black economy which can only be accessed with hard cash, not cheques, not plastic or not with money transfers. The black economy gives the buyer a discount, the seller a tax-free windfall and has been evident ever since taxation was invented. It was suggested that the GST would stop black money but it didn't even slow it down. Black money can only be used for luxuries such as a better holiday or dining out as a capital purchase such as a boat or luxury car can d be seen and has to be explained. Before the GST, black money was totally tax-free but since the introduction of the GST, at least 10% is collected as most items attract GST.
    Curious
    14th Dec 2017
    11:07am
    What an opt-out by the Governor of Reserve Bank of Australia! There is such a thing called "Monetary Sovereignty", which is defined as follows: -

    Monetary sovereignty is the power of the state to exercise exclusive legal control over its currency, broadly defined, by exercise of the following powers:[1]

    Legal tender - the exclusive authority to designate the legal tender forms of payment.
    Issuance and retirement - the exclusive authority to control the issuance and retirement of the legal tender.

    This monetary sovereignty cannot be delegated to any private industry, particularly in the world of globalisation, in terms of foreign trades, foreign exchange, IMF.

    In other words, our currency is the blood supply to the health of our economy. With paper money, the worst thing can happen is fraudulent notes in circulation in our cash system. Just imagine a eCurrency in a digital form with a speed of the light can compromise a large volume of money in a second. Our economy can be collapsed in no time.

    It is noted that handling paper money is an expensive exercise: the cost of printing and issuing currency notes and coins, withdrawing and destruction of notes in circulation, transportation charges and the costs of security guards for notes and coins delivery. These expenses are part of the necessity for the concept of a Monetary Sovereignty over our legal tender.

    It will be a sad day for our livelihood and economy, if our RBA gives up its Monetary Sovereignty Rights to private enterprises for the sake of today's digital technology. Until RBA can address and resolve the issues of its Monetary Sovereignty Rights, the hand-over of these rights to private enterprises is not thing more than a denial of its obligation of duties.

    Please correct me if I am wrong on these issues.
    Rosret
    14th Dec 2017
    11:18am
    Ah, a way out. We could start dealing in a foreign currency that still has paper money and when we need AUS transactions we could convert it back.
    So there AUS - no TAX just like the big guys.
    People will trade without currency and other countries will be glad of the access to our float.
    Think carefully Government administrators - you may lose more than you gain.
    Rae
    15th Dec 2017
    4:33pm
    I've been to plenty of countries Rosret where US$ are readily accepted by everyone at reasonable exchange rates.

    The Us will never go cashless as too much of their economy is hand to hand cash transfers.
    Charlie
    14th Dec 2017
    11:17am
    They said, they are looking at the pros and cons, they better take a look in the mirror to see how silly they look.
    What a perfect way to have complete control over everybody. I'm surprised the NAZI's didn't think of it.
    Rosret
    14th Dec 2017
    11:20am
    They just didn't win the war. However we didn't exterminate them as they did to their people. They are alive and well in our economic and security system.
    TREBOR
    14th Dec 2017
    2:44pm
    The trouble, Rosret, is that those actually doing that kind of ideological stuff these days have no real idea that they are the same as those past masters - the NAZIS and Stalinists etc.

    They firmly believe they are doing right according to their mandate since they are elected by or appointed on behalf of the people..... which is why I long ago determined that they are sociopaths.

    I find it astounding that so many these days - including on here - can actually think that this entire nation would run better if it were totally controlled from top to bottom by a self-appointed elite.

    Do we really want to be like China or North Korea etc? (at least China has the decency to wear silk gloves over their iron fists - they only execute 'bandits' and anti-social elements such as democratists)...
    AutumnOz
    14th Dec 2017
    11:22am
    A cashless society would be the death knell for the many op shops run by charities which do a lot of good in the communities and they would no longer be able to operate if they had to pay the charges on the card transactions.
    People donate good quality items to the charities and they are sold for reasonable prices in the op shops but most people only make a purchase of less than $5 and I doubt there would be sufficient funds coming in during the course of one day or even one week for the charity to be able to dodge the fees the major supermarkets keep to a minimum whilst charging their customers the full amount through adding it to the price of the goods.
    Rosret
    14th Dec 2017
    11:35am
    That would still happen on a card except they would know that you AutumnOz bought the second suit from Vinnies to attend SummerTas wedding who is a Parliamentarian and now your cheap skate purchase will be leaked to the Press and you will be front page news.
    The only way you have a monetary transaction is if you own a card reader or doing online bank transactions. So buying second hand cars etc?? Rewarding someone who helped you fix something in your house??
    Back to trading goods instead of currency.
    TREBOR
    14th Dec 2017
    2:46pm
    ...' and it has come to the attention of the House that the Honourable Member for Autumnozia is wearing a second hand suit!..... "

    **(gales of laughter and haw-haws throughout the House)**....
    AutumnOz
    15th Dec 2017
    7:21pm
    Rosret, I hadn't even thought about that type of tracking of items donated to charities. Nor of the spitefulness of journalists reporting that someone was wearing a second hand suit.
    We live and learn.
    Good comment Trebor :-)
    jackie
    14th Dec 2017
    11:46am
    I preferred the cash pay packet. Banks weren't necessary unless you saved or had a business. Your dollar went so much further back then unlike now.
    Rosret
    14th Dec 2017
    12:04pm
    Agreed Jackie - every bank transaction has a trailing fee. So when in business that 10% GST tax is actually much higher as soon as the days taking are put in the bank. Coupled with the compulsory BAS statements that needed accounts to administer the "invisible" costs just go up and up.
    We actually found that the money couldn't be banked if we were going to have enough clear to pay the GST etc. So that was a risky business and you can't up the prices as a small business owner because the big franchises may not be able to offer the same quality of service but volume sales meant they could under cut at every level.
    Linda
    14th Dec 2017
    11:54am
    Thanks to everyone who has placed a commend on this one. Firstly, remember, there are folks that do not use computers or mobile phones. I am one that avoids those loyalty programs for groceries because I do not want my spending decisions become a tool for a commercial benefit, or a big brother look see at what I eat.

    Clearly the impact of cashless is far reaching, as shown in all the comments. It may suit some, and perhaps that option, well regulated could be in the mix, however there will always be those who prefer to pay in cash for their own reasons. For me it is mainly about personal privacy and avoiding computer crash disasters and fraud. We already have predatory banking happening with outrageous bank fees. By implementing these fad programs and forcing the people to participate via their pay checks and payment methods, the state and the banks become power centres instead of services to people. I strongly object. Things are bad enough already, it gets harder and harder to avoid financial transactions via computers and the internet. Call me a dinosaur.
    Rosret
    14th Dec 2017
    11:57am
    Yep.
    jzb
    14th Dec 2017
    11:56am
    What about farmers'markets where they only deal in cash?!
    Bonny
    14th Dec 2017
    12:02pm
    Next time you pay in cash at one of these markets just remember they ate not paying any tax on that transaction and you have therefore aided the cash economy. This results in less money available for things like health and roads. So blame yourself next time you drive into a pot hole.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    14th Dec 2017
    12:26pm
    Rubbish, Bonny. Most of the sellers DO declare their income and pay tax, at least on the majority of it. And they sometimes sell at much lower prices than big supermarkets and vegie chains. Branding someone a tax cheat just for using a more expedient and economical way of getting goods to consumers is very nasty and totally unfair.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    12:53pm
    Farmers markets around here are twice the price of goods in a supermarket. They try to justify it with all this organic rubbish.

    If people did the right thing why are markets targeted by the ATO in plain clothes just watching and recording notes on their phones?

    We carry our shopping list on a clipboard and most shops think we are secret shoppers so give us great service.
    TREBOR
    14th Dec 2017
    2:49pm
    I grow as much of my own as possible - is that avoiding the cash economy?

    Besides - once that produce seller at the markets sits down for a pie and beer for lunch he/she re-enters the tax cycle... at the end of the day no tax is foregone since it ends up with Big Brother anyway, one way or another.

    This is a thought that needs thinking through....
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    3:29pm
    But he pays for the pie and beer with cash so no tax paid there either.
    TREBOR
    15th Dec 2017
    6:36am
    The beer and the pie incur tax..... game over.... all that is missing is income tax, soon sopped up with each expenditure of the cash....

    Now - the petrol to run home at the servo....... another bite... the tax cycle ensures that every dollar spent here will soon be recouped by government in entirety**..... the only questions are how quickly that should happen and how.

    ** it actually isn't - with each successive % return to Guv (Return To Sender - Address Well Known), at the last spend on that dollar it approaches zero but never quite attains it.... s'how percentages work...
    Rae
    15th Dec 2017
    4:43pm
    Yes OG exactly what corporations do when they minimise taxes using loans and inventory transfer schemes. So the money goes around town a little bit and people buy a meal or two. The other side are spending and wasting billions. Cry me a river.
    ex PS
    18th Dec 2017
    8:29am
    Businesses that are paid in cash, pay no tax? Such statements indicate that people have no idea how the tax and audit system works. I can't see any one making such a statement ever being successful in business.
    Are you saying that a local business being audited by the Tax Department is not required to submit invoices for goods bought so that a reconciliation can be made against turnover, profits made and tax concessions declared. Where on earth would you hide all the tax that you stole? In other words, if you are banking 10% more than your profit margin would indicate you have earned, how would you explain that difference to the Auditor?
    In the case of stall holders, they are not required to pay or claim GST until they reach a certain profit level, so most of them don't have to worry about tax anyway.
    Large companies that have intricate accounting systems and electronic systems of payment have a better chance of avoiding tax, as has been amply demonstrated in this country.
    Old Geezer
    18th Dec 2017
    7:37pm
    PS I guess you haven't heard about the petty cash tin then. That extra cash does not go anywhere near the bank but in the petty cash tin. Auditors usually find the petty cash tin empty and are far more concerned about receipts than anything else. Worst is that business gets a please explain by the auditor and the ATO about missing receipts in the petty cash tin.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    19th Dec 2017
    11:04am
    Next you'll try to convince us that the petty cash tin holds enough to finance extensive tax evasion. Do you not understand the meaning of the word ''petty'', Old fool?
    Old Geezer
    19th Dec 2017
    11:17am
    Yes I do know the meaning of "petty" and as an accountant and auditor I have seen some real big petty amounts held in petty cash too. Surely you have heard people say just put it in the petty cash tin?

    I may be old but I am certainly no fool.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    20th Dec 2017
    8:57pm
    An accountant and auditor who can't work out where the 7.8% return assumed by the assets test comes from! Heaven help your poor clients - if you've ever had any! Typical overpaid incompetent. Sadly, they are very common in yours and the legal profession.
    Bonny
    22nd Dec 2017
    7:07am
    I've tried to work it out too Rainey so can you tell me what happened to the original $800,000 as it's gone missing in action in your calculations.
    Boof
    14th Dec 2017
    12:04pm
    If we are forced to use cashless cards, that will give countless oportunities for unscrupulous companies & employees to get hold of our private details & "take us to the cleaners". Besides that. If we want to walk to the shop & buy a daily paper or an icecream from a non english speaking owner of that corner store , do we swipe our credit cards. They wouldn't have the facilities. I've been to big stores that have a sign. 'Eftpos' only for purchases of $9.99 & above.
    Yep. Cheques are good for donations. One should always carry a old defunct cheque book. Say 50 year old, from a defunct bank. Write as many donations as they want for as much as they want.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    12:08pm
    They already know abut your habit anyway so why bother trying to protect them? Personally I don't care what they know about me.

    What does concern me though is that one can now apply for a credit card for $10,000 with nothing more than a drivers licence number.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    14th Dec 2017
    2:00pm
    You really do live in la la land, don't you OG. I just applied for a new credit card and the assessment process was rigorous. If any organization doesn't apply the same rigour, they deserve to suffer loss. Certainly all the significant banks are cautious.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    2:52pm
    I was very surprised too Rainey when my application was accepted. It is for a very sort after credit card and I was told they were had to get especially if you didn't have a job they could check etc. I even said I didn't own a home too.
    Knight Templar
    14th Dec 2017
    4:15pm
    Old Geezer ... to misquote Groucho Marx all I can say is that any credit card the banks are willing to give you, based merely on a drivers licence, is not worth having!!
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    9:49pm
    Well we'll see as I haven't used it as yet but I'm going overseas shortly and wanted both a visa and mastercard credit card. It actually seems on paper to have better exchange rates and conditions than my existing card. However only By using it will I find out if that is the case.
    TREBOR
    15th Dec 2017
    6:37am
    Ph.D from Sidewinders University - academic requirement name on licence.......
    ex PS
    18th Dec 2017
    8:38am
    My wife applied for a credit card with a very small value just to pay for online stuff in order to reduce the risk of on-line theft. She ended up walking out of the office halfway through the process, we have jointly too much money in the Credit Union to qualify for a part pension and my wife was subjected to a grilling from a teenager as to her spending practices and requirements. My wife is a very patient woman, if it was me I would have walked out within the first five minutes.
    If your banking institution just handed out a Credit Card without any checks, how safe do you feel your money is?
    Old Geezer
    18th Dec 2017
    6:55pm
    Well as I said all they wanted was my driver's licence to apply for a credit card with a $10,000 limit. I have never dealt with these people before so have no history with them. I now have the card but haven't used it as yet.

    There are no annual fee for the card, no transaction fees, no overseas fees and 55 days interest free etc.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    20th Dec 2017
    6:38pm
    Then they are breaking the law. Because the law is very explicit in requiring credit providers to ensure the applicant has the ability to manage his/her affairs competently and pay any debts accrued as a result of providing the credit. I seriously doubt it's easy to find a reputable organization that is breaking the law, and if you deal with disreputable organizations that you KNOW are breaking the law, OG, then YOU are committing a crime. If your story here is true, you are a criminal under the law as it stands.
    Boof
    14th Dec 2017
    12:06pm
    Only kidding.
    BillF2
    14th Dec 2017
    12:15pm
    The operative words in this debate are 'cashless society'. Why are we being herded in this direction? Answer: Control. In spite of the hypothesizing and philosophising by the RBA governor, the aim of government is to control every action of a person's life. Electronic transactions are traceable. Cash isn't. Cash is considered to be the 'black economy' and something to be eliminated by governement, so that it can get its 'fair share'. If you believe this, you also believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden (or Canberra, as the case may be). The UK government is changing coinage and notes and the period for which they are legal tender in order to 'prevent hoarding'. In other words, any cash you save outside the system can soon become worthless. India did similarly with high denomination banknotes, and other countries place restrictions on the amount of cash one can withdraw from one's own bank account. None of these actions indicate liberalism or freedom of trade. Rather they indicate a tightening of the noose by inept and greedy governments, whose concern is not for their own citizens and countrymen, but for money, power and control. Although George Orwell forecast this creeping totalitarianism in his novel '1984', we have all been mesmerised by technology and bewitched into believing the soothsaying of the so-called experts, so that we accept it without question. And when electronioc solutions fail, will we all willingly accept implants in our palms or foreheads?
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    12:25pm
    Bank notes should be changed every 5 years and $100 notes taken out of circulation as they are useless unless used to hoard money.

    Implants are coming too so we won't even need cards or phone then to make transactions.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    14th Dec 2017
    12:32pm
    ''Control'' it is BillF2.

    What I'd like to ask those who want to push a cashless society is ''what happens when there's a black out?'' And what protection will there be against computer viruses and Trojans and the high-tech frauds that are already common? There are no answers yet - and may never be, so we should not be hurrying into a world of troubles. I use credit and debit cards and electronic transactions, but I also carry cash and I find life very difficult if my wallet is empty and there's not an EFTPOS terminal handy. I pay for groceries with a debit card and draw out a sum of cash at the same time. I love the digital world for its convenience, but I'm very glad we also have cash to fall back on in certain situations and I hope bank notes don't disappear any time soon.
    Curious
    14th Dec 2017
    12:41pm
    Rainey, what you have described is called freedom of choice, which is the basis of democracy. Money can't buy!
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    12:59pm
    ATMs will work even if their access line is down but with limited withdrawals. I can't remember the last time I used an ATM in Australia.

    Rainey most cash registers won't work during a blackout so they won't serve you anyway. Most stores also close during blackouts too as there is too much looting in the dark. An electrician once told me he had to fix the power in a shopping centre which was completely blacked out and he was amazed at the number of people in there in the dark just grabbing stuff and then leaving.

    My wallet is always empty as I have no need to carry any cash at all.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    14th Dec 2017
    1:57pm
    And when the BIG blackout happens - and it will - we'll all starve with all the stores closed, OG. It astounds me that the terrorists haven't yet attacked the power network, because it would be SOOOO easy and SOOO destructive. They will get to it. You can be very sure of that. And when they do, we will all thank the Lord for cash and farmers' markets.

    I think the story about people grabbing stuff from stores in a blackout is a huge make-believe - like most of your nonsense, OG. I've been in stores often during blackouts. Generally, the staff manage to handle cash transactions, though the younger ones struggle with working out what change to give when they don't have a cash register to tell them. Security guards are on high alert, but theft is not common. The majority in our society are honest. It's just that dishonesty attracts a lot of attention that sometimes makes it feel like it's everywhere.

    There is far more loss through electronic transaction fraud than through shoplifting. The losses sustained through electronic transactions are quite mind-boggling. I've been targeted many times with fraudulent credit card charges and amazed at my bank manager telling me most people don't even bother to check their statements. Thankfully, I've always recovered my losses but on one occasion the criminal (management of a large corporation) was not held to account and on another mv my bank made good for a person whose bank refused to acknowledge her fraud.
    Puglet
    14th Dec 2017
    2:23pm
    In the North of Oz as soon as there is a cyclone warning ie it is imminent, people are advised to charge phone batteries, fill up the car and withdraw money from ATMs because bowsers and ATMs don’t work if there are blackouts.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    2:29pm
    So Rainey the first question that comes to mind is how long will food stay fresh with no refrigeration? My generator will run for weeks on the fuel I have on hand and I have probably got over a months worth on food on hand. My biggest problem with be keeping everyone else away from it.

    You obviously haven't been to a major shopping centre during a blackout as there I absolutely no light in there at all.

    Yes I know people don't check their bank statements and my family think I'm bonkers when I check mine with all my receipts. Only things I seem to find wrong are when I have a receipt but no transaction on my statement.

    I have had all the tap and go disabled on my cards and also internet and overseas transactions disabled as well. I only enable them when needed. Sure banks might refunded any fraud transactions but I don't want the hassle. If my card is stolen then when the tap and go doesn't work my card is useless to a thief even for $99 transactions.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    14th Dec 2017
    3:04pm
    My fridge runs perfectly on solar. My caravan fridge has never been plugged in to power of any kind, and I have offered all my generators for sale as they are totally obsolete now. My pantry is always well stocked with canned and packet foods and the freezer is always full. I could probably get by for 3+ months without shopping if I had to, but that's not the case for most Australians. There would be plenty who would be deeply thankful for bank notes in their wallet and stores that accept cash if there was a major power outage.

    All the major stores in our area have solar power and the lights work fine through a blackout, but there's not enough power to keep everything running. Maybe solar will ultimately save us from terrorist attacks on the power network.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    3:08pm
    Now all you need Rainey is a shotgun to keep people out.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    14th Dec 2017
    8:55pm
    Not me, OG. People know me well enough to know that I am generous to a fault and they are generous in return. Karma is very real. I can well understand why YOU would need a shotgun.
    TREBOR
    15th Dec 2017
    6:42am
    Ah, Bill - you've hit upon my thesis of The Eternal Civil War Between Government and People... a companion piece to The Divine Right Of Elected Government.....

    Basically there is a perpetual struggle between government trying to gain total control over the people, and those people seeking to shuffle off the chains of over-burdening government...... the ultimate sanctions for an ill-founded government seeking Uberkontrol is either revolution or invasion....

    Got that component somewhere... probably on my computer that crashed and died.... long time ago... under a heading like how to get rid of a bad government....
    Puglet
    14th Dec 2017
    2:16pm
    I have about 50.00 for emergencies in my purse and haven’t used it for about 4 months. Everything else goes on credit card unless the company charges 1-2% ‘extra’. When possible I inform the business why I am going elsewhere for service. My ‘rules’ are that the account is paid in full every month even though I don’t have to pay 45 days. I can’t remember when I last purchased take away food so that isn’t a problem. My bank statements are my ‘budgeting documents’ where I can see exactly where each dollar goes. The cash/Black economy allows unscrupulous businesses to avoid tax and that really gets up my nose and by using credit/debit cards Australians are forced to pay tax, well apart from people who bank with the Cayman Islands.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    2:30pm
    I agree cash transactions affect all of us.
    TREBOR
    14th Dec 2017
    2:33pm
    Cash-less economy and a class-less society - success imminent on both fronts.

    Now let me read the article.
    TREBOR
    14th Dec 2017
    2:37pm
    I get it - it establishes a totally controlled society via the transfer of Uncash. What we will see is a series of sub-divisions, whereby the Pigs and other more equal beings can transfer the equivalent of cash while the vast majority, known as the Proles, will have no choice.

    I say hang the RBA from the yard-arm. As a sovereign individual I expect and demand my right to do as I choose with my own money etc, short of outright criminal behaviour, of course.
    Jim
    14th Dec 2017
    2:52pm
    There was talk more than 20 years ago that Singapore was going to be a cashless society it never happened, with good reason, I hope it never happens, as an aside who on earth designed the new notes it's hard to tell the difference between the 10 and 20 dollar notes, or is just me.

    14th Dec 2017
    3:08pm
    All those sighting CONTROL and extra cost must be living in a scary place in their minds
    I’d be hard pressed to spend $50 in cash in a month - and even this is only because some stupid shops have a minimum spend for card purchases
    I try and avoid those
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    3:16pm
    Agree it is just so much easier doing everything electronically than using old fashioned cash. Best bit is that they will come up empty handed if they knock me over for my cash.
    Puglet
    14th Dec 2017
    3:30pm
    You are correct. Anyone who has a driver’s licence, pays tax, goes to the doctor, sends parcels via OzPost, has a passport, votes, owns their home, purchases big items such as carpets, fridges requiring credit, rents, has a bank loan, goes to Uni, owns a licensed gun, gets arrested and charged including traffic fines, travels, has a bank account, uses a computer for Facebook, google, Safari, does on-line banking, stores stuff in the ‘cloud’ uses Amazon and uses loyalty cards has already ‘sold’ their soul to our cyber owners. Even in death our details are recorded in the big data bank in the sky.
    Dee
    14th Dec 2017
    4:07pm
    What is going to happen to people like my father? 94 years old, neatly blind and deaf and poor sensation in his finger tips. He can’t operate an ATM, mobile phone or computer. This has a very negative effect on his mental state and may eventually prevent him from living independently. I have noticed as a regular raffle ticket seller that young people no longer carry any cash, so I think the end is nigh.
    Bonny
    15th Dec 2017
    8:16am
    Yes it's good to have no money when you go illegal raffle ticket sellers. I ask them to show me their permit and they think I am being stupid.
    Mootnell
    14th Dec 2017
    4:30pm
    ......and then the power goes off! LOL seen it so many times over the years. All the card holders run round like headless chooks because they can't purchase anything. Their phones, iPads and modems go flat the shop card skimmers won't work (often heir tills die as well) and their modern inventions are worthless. I smile hand over my cash and walk out with my groceries.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    5:54pm
    If their tills don't work you can't pay for your groceries even with cash.
    Mootnell
    14th Dec 2017
    7:10pm
    No problems if you have correct money. I've never been refused. Recording it is their issue not mine and I'm not talking an enormous basket either just a few bags.
    It's more difficult to get out the turnstile or the doors than paying cash. I'd hate to have a medical issue in a supermarket when the power goes out. But thats another topic for another day.
    Rae
    15th Dec 2017
    4:59pm
    Yes Mootnell I've never been refused the goods if I have the money either even in a blackout. We had one here that lasted a week including the Coles I shop at and I could buy using cash but plenty were being turned away who only had cards.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    16th Dec 2017
    9:46am
    Likewise, Rae. I notice that young cashiers often struggle to give change correctly, and I've often had to explain to them how to do the math, but they are always more than happy to take my cash.
    Old Geezer
    18th Dec 2017
    9:19pm
    I had an occasion with a couple of young people even using calculators couldn't get it right. They called in the office manager who was considerably senior to them and he said yes I was right and told them to come and see him when they worked it out. An hour later I saw one of them still trying to work it out on their calculator. It was so simple that I worked it out in my head and even showed them how to work it our on a calculator but they just could not get it.
    Knows-a-lot
    14th Dec 2017
    4:55pm
    Brave New World. I don't like it one bit. Keep cash!
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    5:56pm
    If you are worried about your privacy then I know of one young lass who applied for a tax file number with the ATO only to have an American Express letter a couple of weeks later offering her a card. Your information is not safe anywhere.
    TREBOR
    15th Dec 2017
    6:44am
    The thin edge of the wedge to government abuse of information.... should send the bells tolling for most of you already....... and don't go asking me for whom they toll.......
    Blossom
    14th Dec 2017
    6:09pm
    I use my Bank Debit Card to purchase my groceries and withdraw cash for random small purchases or emergency where I need to use a taxi, which happened a few times last year. I dopn't think taxis have eftpos machines at all. When my bank balance is below a set amount the $ value of free charges is reduced. The fees are also less if I do that than if I use my card for every single item. Withdrawing cash when buying groceries is cheaper than paying a bill with my debit card at the P.O. too.
    Bonny
    14th Dec 2017
    8:17pm
    I get as many transactions as I want without any fees and my bank allows me to withdraw cash for free at a Post Office too. No annual fees on any of my credit cards. I can't remember even paying any fees with my banking. Even got a free bank cheque a few weeks ago.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    16th Dec 2017
    9:38am
    Yes, Bonny. We know you live in Utopia. Sadly, most of us have to battle the real world.
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    4:13pm
    Rainey you need to look outside the square and ask for what you want and not take what you are given. Stand up for yourself and get what you want and stop being the victim.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    16th Dec 2017
    4:30pm
    Crap, Bonny. I stand up for myself very well, but businesses need to make a profit and nobody is going to gift everything and get nothing in return when their business is making money off monetary transactions.
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    5:18pm
    So you think it's OK for banks to charge you fees as well as make about 20% return on your money? I certainly Don't.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    18th Dec 2017
    4:13pm
    Who said anything about it being okay? I said they are going to charge, because that's how they run their business. They are not going to wave fees when THEY believe their have an entitlement and a need to charge.
    Old Geezer
    18th Dec 2017
    7:31pm
    Rainey banks only charge those who accept their fees. Many of us don't and get a better deal form the banks. I can't remember ever paying any bank fees in Australia.
    Cowboy Jim
    14th Dec 2017
    8:28pm
    If you people are that worried, change some money into US$, their notes do not expire
    (I recently took some money to the States that I had forgotten between the pages of a book 40 years ago
    and had absolutely no problem). Of course, do not take old money on an Asian holiday; they
    want everything new and crisp.
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    9:55pm
    I took some NZ coins to NZ a few years back but they weren't any good anymore. So I put them in the charity coin collection receptacle.
    Foxy
    14th Dec 2017
    9:27pm
    80 comments??? 80 comments??? Really? lol .......... people in a frenzy over what? Nothing?

    The Reserve Bank is printing brand new "designer" notes as people "post" on YLC? No one keeping up with the latest news??? Living in caves??? lol lol
    Old Geezer
    14th Dec 2017
    9:51pm
    They are only printing them because a small minority wanted notes designed so they could use them too. Yes we are now pandering to minority groups and hang the expense.
    Anonymous
    14th Dec 2017
    10:16pm
    They are printing new notes because a lot of the old ones have gone MIA
    Stuffed into mattresses by the likes of you Foxy.
    I know you live in your Toorak Mansion and still draw the pension
    But when you have your expensive fine dining nights and socialite parties , you make a tiny withdrawal from one of your hundreds of pillows And sofa cushions
    TREBOR
    15th Dec 2017
    6:46am
    .. but if you run a charity event, you need to do a Rose Of The West and make sure all the costs come out of the tickets purchased......
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    4:15pm
    Nothing more annoying than a charity taking up all the over cover area and one has to walk in the rain to get past them.
    TREBOR
    15th Dec 2017
    6:25am
    Cash-less economy and a class-less society - success imminent on both fronts.

    Now let me read the article.
    Franky
    15th Dec 2017
    10:59am
    I like to correct the above article: The reserve bank of Australia IS ALSO a private bank under the umbrella of the Rothchild's almost total control of the world's money supply.
    Apart from that the present mix of payment systems is perfect and convenient. With the latest addition of the non banking institutions of international money transfer like "transferwise.com" there is nothing that is still missing in an increasingly globalized world. Cash will always have a role to play as do electronic ways of payment and cards.
    Rae
    15th Dec 2017
    5:07pm
    Not to mention the zero bound. No one has mentioned it and I'm surprised. Cashless and negative interest rates go hand in hand.

    The Rothchild's have been trying to break the Zero Bound since medical times.
    zus
    15th Dec 2017
    4:44pm
    Hi all, regarding bank notes I'd like to know peoples thoughts on -
    Recently in India the government overnight stopped 500's being legal tender. Would it be possible for the treasury to say that say $100.oo would not longer be able to be spent and therefore the couple of notes held at home etc would be worthless?????
    AutumnOz
    15th Dec 2017
    7:35pm
    Interesting point zus.
    The problem in India was that 500s stopped being legal tender and the government told people to go to the bank and change them for smaller notes.......oddly enough the govt hadn't printed enough to be able to change more than a few each day and that led to a lot of problems for the the farmers selling at the markets.
    The same thing could happen here but Australians are usually a lot more vocal about their money being declared illegal by banks etc.
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    11:35am
    There are more $100 notes in existence than any other note but most are in the mattress bank of people hiding money to get welfare. That's why we need to change notes regularly and have them microchipoed as well. We would then know who has them.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    16th Dec 2017
    9:52am
    Three years ago, my bank computers went down on Christmas Eve. I had to borrow cash from my daughter to pay for the Christmas gifts I had in my trolley, because I only had one card. I got a second after that, to insure against it happening again.

    Two weeks ago, I was taking a huge trolley load of groceries through the Aldi checkout and the bank system went down. Aldi charges a steep fee to use credit card and as I couldn't use the debit card, I had to wear the fee and use a credit card I prefer not to use to pay for groceries. It was embarrassing and frustrating, with a huge queue waiting, to have the machine reject my debit card unexplainably, several times. If I didn't also carry a credit card, I would have had to leave my groceries and go home empty-handed, as I didn't have cash with me at the time and the bank ATMs weren't working. I went home confused and phoned the bank and they told me the system had been down for about two hours.

    The digital world has its advantages, but it also presents major problems at times and I'd hate to rely on it totally. I was without cash because I'd just returned from overseas. Normally, I make sure I have cash in my wallet. The Aldi experience reminded me to make sure there's always enough to at least cover the grocery bill if necessary.

    The world is NOT YET READY for a cashless society. Computer technology and power backup systems need to improve substantially before anyone even hints at going cashless.
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    11:29am
    Rainey I have had problems with cards at service stations, supermarkets even Aldi. I just fill out a form and pay for it the next time I visit the store. No big deal at all.
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    11:31am
    You can now use you mobile phone to pay as well.it so much simpler than handling cash.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    16th Dec 2017
    4:22pm
    Well of course, Bonny, nothing is a problem for the privileged King OG and Queen Bonny living in their Utopia. For the rest of us mere mortals who have to survive in the REAL WORLD, it's not so easy. I could count on 2 fingers the number of businesses that would let anyone they didn't know very, very well fill out a form and go away with a promise to pay later! And any that did would be extremely foolhardy and would deserve the inevitable losses that would result.
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    5:11pm
    Obviously it hasn't been a problem to you Rainey as you would know how easy it is to fix it by filing out a form. I've had it happened when I filled up with fuel in a town as a tourist. Just filled in form and called in the next day when their system was working. Another one I just did a direct debit using my phone. Maybe I just look like I'm an honest person who knows but it has never been an issue even with strangers.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    18th Dec 2017
    4:03pm
    As I said, Bonny, you live in UTOPIA. The rest of us have to get by in the REAL WORLD where there is no trust - for good reason, generally - and the digital world is fraught with danger.
    Old Geezer
    18th Dec 2017
    7:06pm
    Rainey many people are too scared to even get themselves in a situation where they can't pay. It is not an issue as far as I am concerned as I just fill in the form and pay it next time. I guess I just must look like a trusting person.

    By the way if you have a credit card by aware that the scamsters are out to get hold of you details by convincing you they are from your bank and that they have just stop a fraudulent transaction on your credit card. They have enough information to convince you they are legit and want you to give them your information so that can freeze you account id and stop the transaction. I got such a call earlier today. I did a scan for their phone number and told them it wasn't a bank's number and they hung up. I then rang my bank and was then contracted by the Federal Police for any details I had of them.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    19th Dec 2017
    11:00am
    There is NO FORM in 95% of businesses, dreamer, and even where there is, only those known to the business are permitted to use it. Only a total IDIOT would let people fill in a form and leave without paying when they don't know the person. You seem to think that others are all fools. OG. Bad news! It's you who is the fool. The rest here are mostly highly intelligent, thinking individuals who live in the real world and understand it's challenges.
    Old Geezer
    19th Dec 2017
    11:12am
    Well all I'll say Rainey is that I have filled out that form many times so if you say it doesn't exist them by all means just panic the next time you are caught out with no money, card that doesn't work or system is down. What are you going to do if you fill up your car with fuel and you get caught out? Most modern cars are near impossible to syphon the fuel back out. Even if they did it would be contaminated so would have to be disposed of for a disposal fee.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    16th Dec 2017
    9:56am
    I feel for those poor sods who have been forced to use a cashless welfare card. How do they pay for their groceries when the bank's system goes down or other faults occur that make the card unusable? Many travel long distances to shop for groceries, and to have to leave them and go back another day because the system wouldn't recognize their card would be a disaster. Of course the privileged Utopia-dwellers have no empathy for people who live in the real world - always somehow managing to blame the victim for their problems. But anyone capable of empathy should be objecting loudly to such a cruel and punitive system.
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    11:26am
    The sooner it is given to all those on welfare the better the system will cope. After all it is just another debit card. Awesome idea as why shouldn't people on welfare be only able to buy the things that welfare is provided to them for? Money in bank accounts for welfare for those on welfare has been abused so it's time to fix it so welfare can't be abused.

    People with welfare card is simply not enough people have one. Merchants will soon wake up when every one on welfare has one.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    16th Dec 2017
    3:47pm
    Pity they wouldn't make you use one, Bonny. You ''holier than though'' attitude is vile. Who said welfare has been abused? Who the hell are the privileged to decide what constitutes appropriate use of welfare dollars? All the card does is further suppress and stop people rising above their difficulties, but then, that's what the stinking privileged want. Feeds their sense of superiority when they can keep the strugglers DOWN IN THEIR PLACE! Vile selfish pigs can't stand the notion that some might actually save a few dollars to invest in tools that might lift them out of their difficulties. Can't allow that, can we?

    Sure, a small minority spend welfare dollars on grog, drugs, gambling, etc. Maybe because they have been stripped of all hope, or maybe just because they have a weakness in their character. So the stinking vile privileged among us want to condemn every battler and implement punitive measures that destroy hope and opportunity for all of them. Sick attitude!
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    4:08pm
    Rainey I would have no problem or feel inferior by using a welfare card.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    16th Dec 2017
    4:28pm
    So you say when you are safe. It would be a different story if you were at risk, Bonny. Go and walk in the shoes of those who are being persecuted with these cruel and punitive measures.

    I am a responsible citizen who manages money very well, but I would have a HUGE problem with the welfare card. I was on welfare at one time. It I'd been forced to use this disgusting card, I would still be on it today - instead of semi-retired with enough to self-fund, having run a lucrative business that employed 20+ people at a time and boosted our export trade. My kids would not have gone to university and be professionals today either. And I wouldn't own a home.
    Bonny
    16th Dec 2017
    5:14pm
    Well you must of wanted to use your welfare for drugs or booze then Rainey. So are you saying one needs drugs and booze to be successful? One would have thought the only way to be successful would be to on sell them not use them.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    18th Dec 2017
    1:24pm
    No, Bonny. I wanted to SAVE some of my welfare payment to put a deposit on a computer and software, and then pay the system off - which I did. You cannot do that with the card system. There are many things the card system prohibits that are actually productive can help people improve their situation.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    18th Dec 2017
    1:25pm
    This is the problem in this country. The ''holier than though'' egotists thrive on WILD ASSUMPTIONS, having never been in the situation and not taking any interest in learning the FACTS. They just want to judge and condemn because suppressing, blaming, and victimising eases their guilty conscience over allowing a system that treats some so badly to prevail.
    Old Geezer
    18th Dec 2017
    7:25pm
    It is a good thing those holier than thou egotists can see what is really happening and not what people want them to think what is happening. Yes Rainey they know the real facts and have statistics to prove it. If pensioners bank accounts are increasing or remaining the same it is blatantly obvious they are getting too much welfare.
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    19th Dec 2017
    10:57am
    Or maybe, Mr Holier-than-though IGNORANT egotist, the pensioner is going without a great deal of daily comfort to save enough to escape the welfare trap. Goodness, we can't have that, can we? Then the holier-than-though egotists couldn't boast about their superiority and beat their chests and rant about how people on ''welfare'' are irresponsible and therefore not entitled to a decent lifestyle.

    You don't know ANY real facts, OG. You just thrive on wild and nasty ASSUMPTIONS, making you a prize ASS - and a very smelly one at that.

    I lived on welfare. My bank account increased because I busted myself to make damned sure it increased enough that I could eventually buy my way into a business that would end reliance on welfare. That business ended up employing 20+ people at a time. Shame! How awful that welfare actually achieved its stated (but not real) purpose in my case. How disgraceful that pigs can't gloat over me being destitute in old age, because I got a little help when I genuinely needed it.

    People on welfare need to be able to save a little just as anyone else does - to cover unexpected expenses, less frequent expenses (like rates or a rental bond), expenses arising fro ma crisis or trauma, etc. AND to enable them to meet necessary costs of escaping the welfare trap, such as travelling a long distance for a job interview, buying decent clothing for an interview, engaging in training or education programs that enhance job prospects, or buying a tool that might position them to earn or enable them to master skills that would help them into the job market.

    Only an ignorant and vile selfish egotist would suggest that people on welfare are getting too much if they can save a little to survive a crisis or to help - over time - reduce their reliance on welfare.
    Old Geezer
    19th Dec 2017
    3:41pm
    Ha ha Rainey your ignorance Is mind boggling!
    OnlyGenuineRainey
    20th Dec 2017
    6:35pm
    It's obvious who is ignorant, OG. It's the fool who can't make a logical argument but merely makes an idiotic and baseless claim that someone else is ignorant. Try harder! At present, your gross ignorance is glaringly apparent.
    ex PS
    18th Dec 2017
    8:49am
    Credit Cards are so primitive. Go directly to implanted chips I say. Do away with shoplifting and the need for check out staff. Everyone gets a chip implanted at birth and everyone with a need to sell any goods or services gets a reader. You walk into a store and you are tagged, you can pick up anything you like and just walk out with it, the readers read the tag on the goods and your chip and the money is deducted from your account.
    This system could be used to pay utility bills, every computer sold could have a reader installed and when you get your bill you tick an electronic box and wave your chip over the reader. If we are gong to go down this track lets go big.
    Old Geezer
    18th Dec 2017
    11:29am
    They can already scan your tap and go in your purse or pocket so a chip is not much more advanced.
    ex PS
    19th Dec 2017
    9:04am
    Totally different strategy and generation of technology, none so blind as those that will not see. It is like comparing writing out a check to using a Credit Card.
    Johnny
    19th Dec 2017
    8:25am
    Get real real! Tecnology is not God as many think it is. It does let us down from time to time. What about older people who like cash in their wallets?
    Bonny
    22nd Dec 2017
    7:11am
    Yesterday I did my grocery shopping and my card failed to work. No big deal I filled out a form and paid for my groceries when I got home using my computer. So we already have the means available to pay when things fail.
    froggy
    23rd Dec 2017
    9:49am
    Armchair economists living in a fantasy bitcoin bureaucratic world...banknotes may disappear but coin will always be around to pay for necessities...how else would (black) markets survive??


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