Franking credits review on cards: tax expert

Government may need to review its policy on refundable franking credits, says KPMG.

franking credits

The Morrison Government may have to review its policy on refundable franking credits or consider spending cuts or an increase in the GST, according to major consultancy KPMG.

While Labor’s plan to close down the concession that gives cash refunds for excess dividend imputation credits, branded a “retiree tax”, was partly blamed for its shock loss on Saturday, KPMG tax specialist Damian Ryan said the treatment of the issue throughout the election campaign only clouded the reality.

“What was lost in much of the election discussion around the removal of the refund of franking credits for individuals and superannuation funds, was the tax policy issue that is trying to be addressed,” he said. “As the Australian population ages, and as more shares are held by retired Australian individuals and superannuation funds with a significant proportion of members in pension phase, a significant part of the corporate tax base is refunded, thereby putting a strain on the country’s tax base.

“Assuming that the current situation of refundable franking credits continues, then Australia will continue to refund part of its corporate tax base.

“The other alternatives are to accept the reduced tax base and correct spending accordingly, or to revisit the tax base, including consumption taxes, which is just as politically difficult.”

Franking credits were introduced by the Hawke/Keating Government in 1987 to stop shareholders being taxed twice on company profits.  Cash refunds for unused credits were introduced by the Howard Government in 2001 and cost $550 million. In 2014, according to the Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO), they cost $6 billion and its estimates they will cost $8 billion per year in the next few years.

“During the election campaign, on one side, refundable franking offsets were described as a tax rort by the big end of town,” Mr Ryan said. “On the other side, providing an offset but not a refund was described as a new tax on retirees. In reality, neither description is accurate.

“In Australia, income tax is levied at a company level. To avoid double taxation of the profits, we have a system of dividend imputation. When a company pays a dividend, it attaches a franking credit, being a credit for the tax paid by the company on that profit.

“When received by a shareholder, the shareholder receives a tax offset for the tax paid at the company level. Where an individual’s rate of tax is less than the corporate rate of tax, the excess franking offset is used to offset the tax liability on other income.

“Where the franking offset exceeds the tax liability, the excess is a refundable credit. To state the obvious, where the excess is refunded, the Federal Government is refunding part of the corporate tax base. This is not necessarily wrong. It is, however, a tax policy choice, with longer-term implications for the stability of the revenue base.”

An analysis by the PBO found that 53 per cent of excess franking credits claimed by self-managed super funds (SMSFs) were to funds with more than $2.44 million in assets. Funds with more than $1 million claimed 82 per cent of the franking credits, worth $2.1 billion a year, The Australian reports.

Mr Ryan said: “The policy issue, is whether income tax at a corporate level is a tax in itself, or rather a prepayment of tax, with the ultimate level of tax dependent upon the tax profile of the individual and the superannuation fund.

“Either position is defendable from a tax policy perspective, but it comes with fiscal consequences.”

Are you concerned that the Government may have to review the current franking credits policy? Did you believe the issue was done and dusted after the Government was re-elected?

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    COMMENTS

    To make a comment, please register or login
    Farside
    21st May 2019
    5:52pm
    KPMG tax specialist Damian Ryan said “As the Australian population ages, and as more shares are held by retired Australian individuals and superannuation funds ... a significant part of the corporate tax base is refunded, thereby putting a strain on the country’s tax base."

    Cue the SFRs claiming to know better than KPMG ... what was it? I remember - company tax is personal tax paid on my behalf, just like PAYG ... ROFL.
    Old Geezer
    22nd May 2019
    11:03am
    Yes fraNking credits are a with hokding t ax the same as PAYE and PAYG.
    ozrog
    22nd May 2019
    11:59am
    LNP is looking at it they just needed to win the election.
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    12:13pm
    The LNP tried to make ALP bad for wanting stop this tax burden but had it on their backlist any way.

    I wouldn’t be surprised they will take on many of Labor’s progressive policies because conservatism doesn’t allow for progressive thought and ideas.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    12:46pm
    Farside - the comparison with the percentage paid by the company on franked dividends with PAYE tax paid by the company on employees - was a comparison - and it remains absolutely true. It IS the same as PAYE tax paid in advance and is included in gross income (for the last time the second time around).

    You cannot confuse the issue by endless repeating of the mantra that there is no COMPARISON betrween the two (nobody said they were the same) *rolls eyes*. Just try to understand how it actually works and you'll be right.

    Better to simply abolish franking and pay your own taxes on full dividend payment - if you honestly already pay zero tax, you will not pay any.
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    9:07pm
    Trebor, you miss the point of dividend imputation for eliminating double taxation resulting in equal treatment of company debt and equity.
    Rae
    24th May 2019
    7:20am
    I wonder if KPMG has worked out how much the Nazi policy of privatisation has cost the tax base. Any one know?
    Anonymous
    24th May 2019
    7:48am
    We’ll never know now Rae , now that the architect Bob Hawke is gone
    And Keating will never tell

    22nd May 2019
    8:24am
    The LNP will not be reviewing franking credits during this term or the next
    KPMG and other like firms earn millions from governments for consultancy work. This is just a marketing ploy by KPMG

    The LNP is about growing the economy , reducing taxes and letting Aussies keep more of what they earn , not tax us more to find welfare
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    9:54am
    could not have said it any better
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    10:38am
    Maureen or one of your other aliases, they did consider it already and Labor beat them to it. LNP just wanted to win the election. They are in debt and they will look where to get their money and it will not be the top end of town.
    As for the $1000 tax refund they would have already known time was tight but they kept wanting more time instead of calling the election to allow for this to pass. No surprise for them at all!
    Mojobomber
    22nd May 2019
    10:39am
    You hope. Ha ha ha
    Old Geezer
    22nd May 2019
    11:02am
    Agree they won't touch it as they just won an election fighting against it.

    Franking credits are not going to solve the problem. The problem is the no tax after 60 on super pensions. However that has been largely solved by the $1.6 cap on super pension amount. There is now a maximum you can earn without paying tax. Labor never took this into account.
    Batara
    22nd May 2019
    11:49am
    Hi Maureen, I am curious as to which planet you were on when the KPMG dude studied economics. Just curious. Do you acknowledge that the Morrison Government will be short of money because they took no economic policy except tax cuts for the rich to the election? Labor worked out how much the Libs will need to cut from services to all tax payers because of their generosity to the wealthy. I think it was about $40b. Unfortunately they did not convey the message effectively. Make no mistake Morrison is going to have to get money from somewhere. Could be a hike in GST. Could be delay of his tax cuts to the well off. Could be more cuts to education, health and any other assistance that society values. Whatever he does he will be the most unpopular politician in Australia after six months and the hue and cry that goes up when his fake surplus is revealed as a myth will be music to my ears. Really glad I am not working in the Public Service. Things would be looking really shaky in the Public Service with a Liberal government short of money in power.
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    12:21pm
    Maureen, giving money away to the rich and corporations does not build our economy.

    That is why this Government has dug it’s own hole with the largest deficit ever.

    It can’t afford to create more poverty.
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    12:30pm
    Sorry Maureen but its coming New Zealand overhauled their tax system and abolished waste franking credits are no more in new Zealand and we are the last country in the world with such a burden on the tax payer and we cant afford them and if you think they will get another term think again the gap between rich and poor will only grow and like the UK and France changes are coming and they will have to raise the GST have a lovely day.
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    12:30pm
    Sorry Maureen but its coming New Zealand overhauled their tax system and abolished waste franking credits are no more in new Zealand and we are the last country in the world with such a burden on the tax payer and we cant afford them and if you think they will get another term think again the gap between rich and poor will only grow and like the UK and France changes are coming and they will have to raise the GST have a lovely day.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    12:56pm
    It could be as you say, Maureen - the black and white of the ATO's rundown on dividend franking is pretty simple and clear, and the entire issue is already handled by the ATO.


    https://www.ato.gov.au/Forms/You-and-your-shares-2013-14/?page=5

    The basis of the system is that if a company pays or credits you with dividends which have been franked, you may be entitled to a franking tax offset for the tax the company has paid on its income. The franking tax offset will cover or partly cover the tax payable on the dividends.

    A resident company, or a New Zealand franking company that has elected to join the Australian imputation system, may pay or credit you with a franked dividend. Dividends can be fully franked (meaning that the whole amount of the dividend carries a franking credit) or partly franked (meaning that the dividend has a franked amount and an unfranked amount). The dividend statement or distribution statement you receive from the company paying the franked dividend must state the amount of the franking credit and the amounts of the franked and unfranked parts of the dividend.

    Note the term – OFFSET! The franked component comprises part of GROSS INCOME (same as PAYE does, OK?) - and is NOT a guaranteed free handout..

    From ASIC:

    https://www.moneysmart.gov.au/investing/shares/keeping-track-of-your-shares/dividends

    Like any income, you need to include the dividends you receive on your tax return. Keep any transaction statements you get about your dividends, because you will need these to work out your tax.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    12:57pm
    Read the last bit - it's a pity this site will not permit any form of emphasis on a specific and relevant passage...

    Here it is again for the illiterate:-


    https://www.ato.gov.au/Forms/You-and-your-shares-2013-14/?page=5

    The basis of the system is that if a company pays or credits you with dividends which have been franked, you may be entitled to a franking tax offset for the tax the company has paid on its income. The franking tax offset will cover or partly cover the tax payable on the dividends.

    A resident company, or a New Zealand franking company that has elected to join the Australian imputation system, may pay or credit you with a franked dividend. Dividends can be fully franked (meaning that the whole amount of the dividend carries a franking credit) or partly franked (meaning that the dividend has a franked amount and an unfranked amount). The dividend statement or distribution statement you receive from the company paying the franked dividend must state the amount of the franking credit and the amounts of the franked and unfranked parts of the dividend.

    Note the term – OFFSET! The franked component comprises part of GROSS INCOME (same as PAYE does, OK?) - and is NOT a guaranteed free handout..

    From ASIC:

    https://www.moneysmart.gov.au/investing/shares/keeping-track-of-your-shares/dividends

    Like any income, you need to include the dividends you receive on your tax return. Keep any transaction statements you get about your dividends, because you will need these to work out your tax.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    1:03pm
    Trebor , I understand the imputation system and franking credit policy perfectly
    That is why it’s fair as it is

    No tweaking needed

    Labor was going to tweak it to make it grossly unfair to low income retirees
    ex PS
    22nd May 2019
    1:42pm
    Maureen, you can not believe what you have been told by this government, they have already broken the promise about reducing tax and it is doubtful they will meet the budget surplus target on time.
    The voters have been conned yet again. They will change the franking credit policy and they will change the negative gearing policy, they will do it soon so that their rusted on supporters will forget all about it come the next election. It is easy to sell a lie to the populace, just tell them what they want to hear.
    The only promises they intend to keep will be to big business and there financial backer Clive Palmer. The piper will have to be paid.
    Agnes
    22nd May 2019
    1:55pm
    Point taken PS, just as you could never believe what an ALP] govt told the electorate. Or how about how the electorate was conned by KRudd and Gillard.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    2:12pm
    It's only fair as long as shareholders do their taxes properly. That is the issue as outline already. People cannot claim to live on zero income all the time while enjoying the fat of the land - MorrisonCo could well be the government that brings in a deemed income level required for lifestyle.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    2:14pm
    .. and (once again) abolishing franking will make NO DIFFERENCE, since it is supposed to be included in gross income already. In fact franking is the fiddling around the edges that causes so much confusion and thus needs to be removed from the table.
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    8:35pm
    Actually Batara there will be cuts to the public service jobs already flagged preelection.
    There is a cut to what the doctors get via Medicare also flagged.
    ABC is to lose mor funding.
    The usual things targeted by LNP are on again.
    Anonymous
    23rd May 2019
    5:31pm
    i would not go off half cocked at this article!
    Chris B T
    22nd May 2019
    8:39am
    Those above the $18000 tax exempt level are not effected.
    The Proposal by Labor had OAP/Part OAP Exempt and Super Funds.
    This leaves only The Self Funded Retirees that Have Franking Credit Shares (Not all Shares Have This).
    The so called Culling of Franking Credits is Targeting only the Group that are below the $18000 Tax Exempt Level, there Asset Mix Excludes them from OAP/Part OAP.
    Changing there Asset Mix now Allows them Franking Credit Exemption.
    The Cost of this could be 20 times plus than Allowing Franking Credits.
    The Statement By Some About those Receiving These Credits Below the Tax Exempt Threshold are forgetting that OAP/Part are in the same situation as not Paying Tax on These earnings and receiving The OAP/Part OAP as well .
    The only Fair and Equitable Why of Dealing With The Franking Credit Issue is a Universal Pension. All Receive Full OAP and All Pay Tax ON ALL EARNINGS. That IS ALL EARNINGS NO EXEMPTIONS. That is EVERYONE NO EXEMPTIONS.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    9:03am
    I believe once we have a strong balance sheet with zero debt and $billions in surplus , the LNP can consider universal pension.

    unfortunately whenever the LNP fixes our balance sheet , greedy Australian voters put labor back in because they promise $trillions in handouts , emptying our piggy bank and going into debt in the process
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    9:56am
    Maureen. - you might want to be careful - there are quite a few on this site that have strongly opposing views - I am with you though
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    10:08am
    Bob Menzies - Shorten and Bowen wanted to do to pensioners what labor did last time when they destroyed universal pension
    They wanted to tax retirees even more
    Same policy objectives , except this time Aussies said NO MORE
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    10:42am
    Maureen, you are viewing them through rosy coloured spectacles. Universal pension?
    They are not even united and will struggle to agree. Just hope they do not go after you unless you are very wealthy then you are safe. You have it around the wrong way, LNP is the party anti workers and poor people, hospitals and schools, etc.
    Mojobomber
    22nd May 2019
    10:47am
    Maureen you are pretty rude calling people greedy because they vote for money to be spent on education, health, aged care, a good standard of living for all, in short, bettering the lives of all Australians. I can be just as rude. The Libs only look after their mates in the high end of town and its people like you two bob capitalists that want to keep the purse full while you clutch it high up to your chest lest some group of pensioners or parents on low income want some of it, which in fact they paid for out of their taxes. Oh and while we are at it, how are the tax cuts Slo Mo promised coming along? Three days in and already one policy broken. The Libs may hold a full purse but the economy is stuffed.
    Mojobomber
    22nd May 2019
    11:48am
    Perhaps you could explain this universal pension. Is that the Indue Card, which is provided by a company owned by the family trustee of Larry Anthony, son of Doug Anthony, former National Party Leader? Costs the Government $4000 for each card, payable to this company, and therefore billions to Anthony Family Trustee. https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/nationals-interest-larry-anthony-the-party-president-who-runs-a-lobbying-firm-20170929-gyr9wx.html
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    12:36pm
    Maureen, our Reserve Bank is owned by the Rothschild family. We will never get out of debt.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    12:58pm
    Those BELOW the $18,200 tax free zone are not affected....

    *rolls eyes*
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    5:04pm
    Maureen, the word, ‘greedy’ has identified you. You could not help yourself. People on low incomes are not greedy they are needy. Another thing that is about to go is the money given to doctors being reduced to $6 for a short visit. Health care cardholders will suffer and they are a range of different people but with one common thread, lack of funds.
    Not a Bludger
    22nd May 2019
    10:32am
    Again may I say that the writs rare not yet even returned on one of the biggest rejections of Labor policies in Australia’s political history.
    Yet, here is another rentseeking so-called professional continuing to push for changes to franking credit tax law - just like Labour.
    How on earth can we get people like this to accept that when voters say NO it means NO.
    Scomo’s Government knows how to listen and will never change this aspect of tax law.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    10:40am
    Bowen probably paid KPMG for helping him formulate his policy.
    KPMG’s largest consultancy office is in Canberra
    Mojobomber
    22nd May 2019
    10:51am
    We will see, shall we? Maureen, weren't KPMG investigated as part of the Banking Royal Commission that Labor CALLED FOR many times and found to be involved in wrongdoings. Therefore, I would say they would not be complying with Labor as you suggest. You are clutching at straws.
    Batara
    22nd May 2019
    12:25pm
    Must remember your pseudonym - Not a Bludger - and also Maureen. I will come back in a few months to check if you still support the Liar from the Shire. The man who promised tax cuts from 1 July and can't do it. He should have known - take your pick: dishonest or incompetent? You may choose "both". The man who promised to keep power prices under control but the producers of power on the first working day after the election hiked the wholesale price. Morrison is a fraud through and through. The Liar from the Shire.
    Batara
    22nd May 2019
    12:25pm
    Must remember your pseudonym - Not a Bludger - and also Maureen. I will come back in a few months to check if you still support the Liar from the Shire. The man who promised tax cuts from 1 July and can't do it. He should have known - take your pick: dishonest or incompetent? You may choose "both". The man who promised to keep power prices under control but the producers of power on the first working day after the election hiked the wholesale price. Morrison is a fraud through and through. The Liar from the Shire.
    Agnes
    22nd May 2019
    2:30pm
    And Batara is Paddington one of your multiple pseudonyms? You sound like his clone. Your phrase "dishonest or incompetent' is how many (clearly in view of the election result)of the Australian Public view Shorten, his entire front bench, ( many would add just evil) and the majority of ALP PM's and treasurers. We shall also be checking in a few months time as the ALP slowly eviscerates itself with its lack of talent, and the LNP continues to ride high in the eyes of the electorate.
    Not a Bludger
    22nd May 2019
    4:41pm
    Here is a question - is Batara Mick in a new guise?
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    7:27pm
    Ha ha! No, but it does apply to some on here for sure.
    Lookfar
    22nd May 2019
    7:55pm
    Claiming to not be a bludger without proof.
    The Govt is not a Majority, particularly in the Senate.
    Karenglp
    22nd May 2019
    10:40am
    Chris B T. You have it very wrong. Superfunds were not exempt unless they had a member who was age pension age as at a crazy 2017 date. This meant those coming into pension phase since then would be affected. If solely funding yourself on investments which have a franked dividend stream you would receive a tax refund up to around 100k which is when your average rate overall becomes equal to 30%. Self funded retirees under pension age most often women would be affected.
    Tax paid by companies is a witholding. Thisvis why foreign investors are not taxed on these earnings. To them we say wecare happy to keep the tax paid by the company. But for low income Australians they were wanting to also effectively tax at 30%.
    Bazza51
    22nd May 2019
    10:43am
    Wouldn't it be simpler to just pay the full dividend rate to shareholders and let them sort out the tax in their individual tax return. Everyone has a different tax situation and offsets, concessions etc. This would ensure that everyone pays what is required of them, just like the rest of the tax system. Also ensures that there is no double taxation on the company. Comments from the article back this up ( To avoid double taxation of the profits, we have a system of dividend imputation.) (Where an individual’s rate of tax is less than the corporate rate of tax, the excess franking offset is used to offset the tax liability on other income.)
    Karenglp
    22nd May 2019
    1:56pm
    Yes trusts operate like this. Only end recipient pays tax. The beneficiaries are credited with all earnings for the year in which income is earnt. However the earings of companies are deemedvto be that of the company until they are paid to the investor. So the company is taxed and whenever a net amount is received by investor they increase their dividend by the tax paid, get assessed on it and get a credit for the tax that was paid on that income.
    Bazza51
    22nd May 2019
    10:43am
    Wouldn't it be simpler to just pay the full dividend rate to shareholders and let them sort out the tax in their individual tax return. Everyone has a different tax situation and offsets, concessions etc. This would ensure that everyone pays what is required of them, just like the rest of the tax system. Also ensures that there is no double taxation on the company. Comments from the article back this up ( To avoid double taxation of the profits, we have a system of dividend imputation.) (Where an individual’s rate of tax is less than the corporate rate of tax, the excess franking offset is used to offset the tax liability on other income.)
    Jenny
    22nd May 2019
    11:04am
    Sounds like a better idea to me. I don't know why it was set up the way it is now, it has become too complicated and a source of much angst.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:04pm
    Exactly, Bazza. Far too much misconception and deliberate misleading about the way it is handled now.

    Pay your taxes, you lazy bums. There are already plenty of ways to circumvent paying tax on such income by putting it into more investment etc or sliding it into a non-taxpaying fund ... the whole system is too unwieldy and allows far too much 'scaping the lash, and carries the very real hazard for the unwary that they think they do not have to include their franking in their tax return...

    The ATO does not do every return every year - but if you are rorting the system and deliberately failing to include your franking - I'd advise you to mend your ways before Bro Morrison come on the rampage for you. Automated systems are rapidly closing the gap between personpower pure at the ATO and the chimera of totally analysing every return for every taxpayer..... if you haven't seen that writing on the wall, and are refusing to do the right thing - they WILL get you.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    1:07pm
    Bazaa - the current system
    Does the same thing and is a more elegant solution

    Your proposal is messy because you have components of a corporations profits that will be taxed and components that won’t under your proposal

    You and Trebor best not confuse yourselves with matters beyond your comprehension
    Karl Marx
    22nd May 2019
    1:37pm
    And you Maureen know better than most. You seem to know the system inside out & that the LNP are doing a terrific job. Good on you. lol
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    1:39pm
    By jingo you’ve got it SFR
    Finally
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    3:35pm
    Bazza51, the way it is handled is to confuse the public just like all legal tax avoidance loopholes are.

    The lot should be closed.

    I still can't comprehend how Australia voted against these things and found them so bad.

    Free & reduced childcare ages 3,3,5
    Free dental for pensioners
    Free cancer treatment and more money for hospitals
    Solar panels in every public school and more money across education
    Climate changed action and the Murray/Darling Basin
    Cutting welfare to the well off
    A Fed ICAC
    Increased funding to the ABC
    Reinstating penalty rate and action to increase wages to a living wage
    Refugees and asylum seekers rights
    A stable Government
    A fairer and more compassionate society.
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    5:08pm
    Well said Jackie. The other lot were just louder using Murdoch press to frighten people.
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    5:51pm
    jackie, do yourself a favour and stop trying to comprehend the reasons why and accept you have a different set of values. You will get another crack in three years time.

    I shall share with you a conversation with my brother who was overjoyed with the election result. Dave explained it to me in a way many on this forum would agree - "Labor governments just waste money on dropkicks, drug addicts and the lazy, then want to hit up the taxpayer for more taxes. We are already paying too much in taxes supporting child care, aged care, pensions, dole bludgers, immigrants and more. Most other countries do not waste money on these things. If we keep taxing and taxing then companies will not invest here. Greens are a stain on the landscape and should be jailed before they ruin Australia for those that work to make it a great place to live."

    ok, Dave is unashamedly uninterested in a fairer or compassionate society if he has to pay for it. He says his duty is to look after number one and those who say otherwise are hypocrites e.g. they do not invite homeless and street people into their homes or give away their money to help those who won't help themselves. So why should he agree to the government giving away his money? He believes taxes are too high and that Australians should be paying much less in personal taxes than in USA because it does not have all the illegal immigrants to deal with.

    And it will come as no surprise he lives in WA.
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    8:20pm
    KSS, my bad, I must of read some Fake news. They have almost sold off their American debt.
    Anonymous
    27th May 2019
    6:37pm
    Free dental for pensioners
    Free cancer treatment and more money for hospitals
    Solar panels in every public school and more money across education
    Climate changed action and the Murray/Darling Basin
    Cutting welfare to the well off
    A Fed ICAC
    Increased funding to the ABC
    Reinstating penalty rate and action to increase wages to a living wage
    Refugees and asylum seekers rights
    A stable Government
    A fairer and more compassionate society........and a "money tree" in everyone's back yard!!
    retvilldotnet
    22nd May 2019
    10:56am
    Just 'grandfather' the current situation and make it 'tax fee' income because the tax has already been paid.
    Old Geezer
    22nd May 2019
    10:58am
    LNP wont touch franking in this term or the next term of government and certainoy not in the way Labor proposed. It would be better to increase the GST or make old age pension amount received a debt upon your estate when you die.
    Tom Tank
    22nd May 2019
    12:13pm
    Well said Old Geezer make those who can least afford it pay more while giving tax cuts to the well off.

    Howard and Costello really stuffed up our taxation system with their welfare payments to the upper middle class through tax concessations when the mining boom was at it height. Norway on the other hand has used the income from its resources to build the overall wealth of the country.
    Tom Tank
    22nd May 2019
    12:13pm
    Well said Old Geezer make those who can least afford it pay more while giving tax cuts to the well off.

    Howard and Costello really stuffed up our taxation system with their welfare payments to the upper middle class through tax concessations when the mining boom was at it height. Norway on the other hand has used the income from its resources to build the overall wealth of the country.
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    12:41pm
    Tom Tank, Russia paid off its debt from its mining boom and broke away from the Rothschild bank that America and Australia will be in perpetual debt to.
    KSS
    22nd May 2019
    1:19pm
    jackie jackie jackie.

    As of May 2019, Russia is in debt to the tune of $467.8 Billion down from $523 b in 2016 but an increease from $453.7 in January this year. So they have not in fact paid off thier debt at all. In fact it is on the rise.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/external-debt

    Australia's position:

    Assets and Liabilities
    As at 31 March 2019:
    • net worth is negative $450,556 million;
    • net debt is $376,718 million; and
    • net financial liabilities are $656,411 million.

    https://www.finance.gov.au/publications/commonwealth-monthly-financial-statements/2019/mfs-march/
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:31pm
    They don't have to, OG - what they WILL do is install and run their automatic system in the ATO, and the actual result will be the same.

    Just when you thought the automated systems were only to catch 'dole bludgers' and social security cheats..... you're gonna need a bigger boat if you're cheating in any way.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:31pm
    **laughs at the discussion of some violation of Pension Rights*
    Polly Esther
    22nd May 2019
    2:05pm
    there goes that jackie again ROFLOL
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    4:22pm
    Old Geezer you and Maureen and the rest of you well offs are all dreaming 6 billion this year 8 billion next year it will keep increasing you don't have to be too intelligent to know that it will stop
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    4:22pm
    Old Geezer you and Maureen and the rest of you well offs are all dreaming 6 billion this year 8 billion next year it will keep increasing you don't have to be too intelligent to know that it will stop
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    5:34pm
    Yes OG that would be the LNP way for sure. Plus taking Medicare off the doctors. Mucking around with our medicines which are now a headache every month to sort out. Not giving funds to the poorest schools. We know the priorities of the LNP.
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    8:32pm
    KSS, I must have read some Fake news. My bad but they have almost sold off their American debt.
    Old Geezer
    23rd May 2019
    10:05am
    Ollie I earn enough income to be able to use my franking credits to pay less tax. It us nit the wealthy but the poorest of self funded retirees than would have been hurt the harder under this hideous Labor policy. I can't see the LNP even giving this hideous policy even athought.
    Anonymous
    29th May 2019
    11:21am
    i agree with your comments OG...it is the poorer retirees who would have been hit with the franking credits fiasco(ie those who do not earn enough to pay tax) if Labor had their way. those who earn enough income to pay tax will not be affected.
    Karl Marx
    22nd May 2019
    11:16am
    Time will tell. The LNP has lied to the people especially retirees for tbe last 6 years so I don't expect any change for the next 3. The pension is to complex, needs simplifying.
    Will be interesting to see if this government will close the loopholes that allow millionaires to pay no tax & companies making millions of dollars profit in Australia being allowed to pay no tax for years.
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    12:58pm
    SRF, it was a very close election. Morrison won nothing just his own terrible mess created by six years of Liberal great money management.

    It makes me sick when people and companies use legal loopholes to avoid paying tax.

    Taxes that should be going toward our infrastructure which everyone uses.

    Now many rich people resort to wage theft through legal loopholes.

    They are the real parasites of society working hard at rorting the system. They call that being clever. I call that a disease, Greed.

    We are all here on borrowed time. The earth does not belong to us and should be taken care of for future generations just as it was for us.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:32pm
    Too true, jackie.
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    5:57pm
    jackie, surely by now you must realise they don't care. Live in the present, look out for number one and let others look after themselves is the popular dogma.
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    6:52pm
    Great comment Jackie
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    6:52pm
    Great comment Jackie
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    7:24pm
    What did Jackie say that was true
    All she said was labor propaganda

    Show us some examples

    Easy to post rubbish
    Lots of people seem to do it on this site
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    8:52pm
    Maureen, calm down dear it’s not good for the health.

    Look back on your childhood and the joy you had with nature.

    Corporations don’t care about nature just their shareholders.

    Good night
    Dave R
    22nd May 2019
    11:27am
    The LNP government will have to get money from somewhere. The economy is going backwards after six years of them running it. A recession is around the corner that's why interest rates are being cut to near zero. It will be panic stations before the end of this year.
    Karl Marx
    22nd May 2019
    11:35am
    They can cut interest rates as much as they want, history shows the banks won't pass it on & may even increase rates as they look for more money offshore. Biggest rort is credit card rates.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    11:49am
    Right you are about credit cards, SFR. In my old place in Europe my sister tells me that mortgage rates are 1%. Your savings do not yield anything and if you have more than $100'000 in the bank you are charged .5% pa negative. Might happen here as well. Wonder what the deeming rates are going to be then.
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    1:08pm
    Everything is pointing to a recession I don't think labour really wanted to win government they did everything possible to lose and they got rid of an unpopular leader but they know that things have to change there will be lots of pain and they are the opposition. This government keeps saying that we are in surplus we are not and it is very unlikely that we will be what is the debt I don't know can someone tell me the labour party did not tell us in their campaign last I heard it was 80 billion and growing more than doubled in the last six years
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    1:08pm
    Everything is pointing to a recession I don't think labour really wanted to win government they did everything possible to lose and they got rid of an unpopular leader but they know that things have to change there will be lots of pain and they are the opposition. This government keeps saying that we are in surplus we are not and it is very unlikely that we will be what is the debt I don't know can someone tell me the labour party did not tell us in their campaign last I heard it was 80 billion and growing more than doubled in the last six years
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    1:14pm
    Dave R, all these economists have tied a noose around their necks.

    Australia should have focused on being a leader in creating industries here. We have the space but chose to rely on cheap imports from developing countries. Selling off our assets to foreign ownership.

    The evidence is in our deficit.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:34pm
    Cutting interest rates is sticking a finger in the dyke in the hope that the flood will not break through...

    With no solid underpinning of productive infrastructure for the nation, but only for the mythical 'global economy', there is no hope for a future other than the economy staggering along like a ten day drunk ....
    ex PS
    22nd May 2019
    1:48pm
    Labor is probably secretly relieved it did not win government and inherit the mess that the Lib/Nats have created.
    The government will not be able to hide their incompetence much longer.
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    6:13pm
    Cutting interest rates can be an effective monetary tactic to stimulate the economy, except when rates are at historical low levels. Consumer confidence is in malaise with no change in sight. Much of the $1080 stimulus when it arrives will be spent on beer so best become used to staggering along like a ten day drunk (as Trebor so eloquently put it).
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    7:49pm
    TREBOR great comment I bet if the country goes into recession their propaganda machine Scomo Dutton and Von Matius will blame the Labour party
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    7:49pm
    TREBOR great comment I bet if the country goes into recession their propaganda machine Scomo Dutton and Von Matius will blame the Labour party
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    8:56pm
    Dave R, banks are getting desperate when they are lowering their home loan application standards.

    I feel for anyone getting a loan when they can’t really afford to.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    8:59pm
    HAHAHAHAHA

    banks have tightened LVR’s
    The Morrison government is offering to help bridge the gap between the banks high standards and what borrowers can afford

    What lies you tell Jackie - hahahahha
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    9:42pm
    Maureen, you didn’t the news this evening?
    Anonymous
    27th May 2019
    6:38pm
    if I have to pay my bank to keep my money I will be drawing the lot out!
    Placido1
    22nd May 2019
    11:32am
    The LP will probably take the lazy way out and increase the GST which surprise surprise will effectively be a tax on pensioners and have more negative effect onpeople with lower incomes. Else they will cut even more services.

    Say hello to the new RETIREE TAX.
    Karl Marx
    22nd May 2019
    11:38am
    Or GST for all purchases to encompass food & or an increase to 15% especially as the states keep demanding more & more from federal coffers.
    When the GST was introduced pensions etc where increased to help compensate for the added costs
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    1:18pm
    Placidity1, if all tax avoidance loopholes were closed GST would never had to be an option.
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    1:30pm
    The problem for them will be the senate
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    1:30pm
    The problem for them will be the senate
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:40pm
    but.... but.... but... the States already get the MASSIVE WINDFALL from royalties on resource extraction..... (LMAO) ... surely they have no need to constantly whine for more and more like Oliver Twist...

    Could it be, like in Lawrence of Arabia, that millions of pounds in gold pass through their hand, but still they are poor men, because they are rivers to their people?

    Don't make me laugh... all you do when you raise taxes etc is create higher costs and thus increased demand for wage rises and never-ending and runaway inflation.

    CUT the costs of living, and then we can discuss the fading value of the Australian dollar to its spenders (not interested much in any global rate - stoopid is as stoopid does)... the matter of concern is how much the dollar can buy for Australian citizens in AUSTRALIA - not what international comparison rate it possesses for 'trade' (another lie - Banana Republics don't trade - they give and offer obeisance while the self-appointed plantation owners and overseers are the only ones who profit - the rest work all night on a drink of rum)...
    older&wiser
    22nd May 2019
    11:35am
    I do not have any shares, and franking credits do not affect me. BUT - I am strongly against any tinkering of this.
    I am sick and tired of governments seeing seniors as a cash cow. People who have worked hard, organised and structured their finances with legal means, then have the rules changed. However, the biggest concern is - what next? Once they start with this, what will they target next?
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    6:18pm
    I heard many comments like this from seniors who believed loss of franking credit refunds made them worse off despite them not owning shares, not having superannuation and being on full pensions.
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    7:13pm
    The problem is Howard a Costello set this up for wealthy retirees when the economy was booming thanks to Hawk and Keating.The economy now has stagnated I too have no shares Like many Australians I did not even know what franking credits were until it became an election issue but I will say that I was shocked to hear how much money was involved 6 billion and increasing by 2 billion every year. They cut money from schools and hospitals our power prices are through the roof some families cant put 3 meals on the table daily and they give away billions to 8% of the wealthiest retirees SCAREY.
    ollie
    22nd May 2019
    7:13pm
    The problem is Howard a Costello set this up for wealthy retirees when the economy was booming thanks to Hawk and Keating.The economy now has stagnated I too have no shares Like many Australians I did not even know what franking credits were until it became an election issue but I will say that I was shocked to hear how much money was involved 6 billion and increasing by 2 billion every year. They cut money from schools and hospitals our power prices are through the roof some families cant put 3 meals on the table daily and they give away billions to 8% of the wealthiest retirees SCAREY.
    neil
    22nd May 2019
    11:48am
    Post election: Loaf of bread has just gone up 25% here.

    Neil.
    KSS
    22nd May 2019
    12:44pm
    And of course that is as a direct result of the election just 4 days ago right? Absolutely nothing to do with the fact there is a drought across much of the wheat growing areas, increasing the costs of the raw materials and also increasing production costs right neil?

    People have been warned for months that food is likely to rise in price and that would happen with or without an election and no matter who won. But that doesn't fit the anti NLP rhetoric does it?

    And what did it do, go from $1 to $1.25?
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    1:36pm
    KSS, the drought is a part of Climate Change. Farmers are opening up their farms are less productive than in the past.

    All good farming land was sold off to residential developers for our increasing population that requires food.

    The cost of food will soar because we have short sighted Governments.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:44pm
    .. and to overseas 'investors' who end up paying no tax or even employing more than a few .... I regularly used to drive past that lovely big green farm at Bunyan (south of Cambra - Heart Of The Nation), and it's 'owned' by the Chinkers... not leased - OWNED ... and they use masses of water from the river to wet it down and grow to produce food for China and profit for the New Mandarins there.... prime Snowies volcanic soil and above the salt table....

    Communists my ass .... same as it was under even the worst Emperor, same as Russia....
    KSS
    22nd May 2019
    1:46pm
    Sweeping statement much! "All good farming land was sold off to residential developers for our increasing population that requires food."

    All farning land sold! WT!

    Increasing population, and yet you wanted the party who promised to being 200,000 more people immediately on family reunion tickets, increase the refugee intake and increase temporary and permanent visas.

    You can't have it both ways jackie.

    As for climate change being the cause of drought, well no. There have always been droughts in Australia, we are the driest continent in the world. There have always been severe droughts too lasting several years. And we will again in the future once this one is over. Its is one of the reasons we cannot keep accepting more and more people into Australia. The land cannot support them!
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    9:26pm
    KSS, this has always been one of the driest continent on the planet. Farmers that have been on their prop ties for decades are admitting their farms are drier than ever. They are getting less wet spells than in the past.

    Water will end up being the most precious resource not money. Another reason to stop ignoring climate change.

    Neither major party has a population policy. This needs to be addressed because Australia can’t sustain a large population because of lack of water.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.news.com.au/technology/environment/how-many-people-can-australia-sustain/news-story/bd87286066e21c70a7b113818d2c8ee8
    Captain
    23rd May 2019
    8:52am
    No lack of water in the north of Australia. 90% of the rainfall up there flows directly into the sea. Makes you wonder what could be.
    Rae
    24th May 2019
    8:09am
    Wait until the east coast needs feed from the west coast? The main wheat acreage has just been sold to Saudi Arabia because nobody here gave a rats or wanted to farm it. Short sighted.

    We could buy water from Adani if necessary after giving them so much for free.

    Food is expensive in drought and with an excessive population competing on price and with millions of wealthy in other countries food can only get dearer.

    Saving as much as you can by cutting any excess spending is all retirees can do if they can't go out and find a job.

    Obviously Government after Government will see savers as an easy cow to cash.
    neil
    22nd May 2019
    11:48am
    Post election: Loaf of bread has just gone up 25% here.

    Neil.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:45pm
    Labor did it - ask Morrison ....
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    3:40pm
    TREBOR, the Labor Party must all be a bunch of magicians. ha ha
    4b2
    22nd May 2019
    11:49am
    These Murdoch Muppets need to address the +60 issues raised in the Banking Royal commission first. Any Australian Government needs to address the imbalance in raising taxes to meet the services required for the country we are living in an unsustainable environment at present. there is no magic wand. Reduce welfare for the wealthy. Provide an environment for full time employment and return weekend penalty rates.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    11:56am
    Maybe the answer would be to leave the wages the way they are with normal increases but lift the income tax threshold to $50'000 and then raise the GST to 15%. More taxes for the consumer and less for the earner. We do have very high minimum wages in this country if we look at our geographical area and our living standard are also high. Full employment is probably not possible at present.
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    1:43pm
    Cowboy Jim, stop comparing us to developing nations where wages are concerned. Our cost of living is 10 fold more than theirs.

    I am aware that we are heading down the American path where today their wages are less than what they were in the 70s and the place has turned into a developing country.

    Why want that for your family?
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:47pm
    Ah - tax the unemployed and the pensioner, Cowboy Jim, all under your $50k limit and thus massively impacted by GST - why didn't Morriscum, Fat Joe, Tony and Co think of that?

    After all - social security is the only direct cost to the budget.. everything else is sacrosanct and runs for free!

    22nd May 2019
    11:51am
    Anastasia P is now going to fastrack approval for Adani
    The people have spoken

    She need a good lock up her backside and now she’s off .

    Well done people of Queensland
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    11:58am
    Needed a good kick - apologies for typo
    Karl Marx
    22nd May 2019
    12:10pm
    Australia should not be dealing with Adani or any company that has very very questionable environmental & human rights issues in just about every country they have dealings with.
    Lets hope the Qld and federal governments put in place very stingent environmental policies with transparency so they they will be held accountable very swiftly with extremely severe penalties.
    Let's also hope Adani pay appropriate taxes & not become another multinational making billion of dollars profit and offsetting offshore like 100's of other companies to pay no tax, it's Australia's coal on Australian land some of which is indigenous owned they are mining remember that.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    12:35pm
    Thank you to Bob Brown too
    Where are you taking the bus next Bob
    We need more development in the Northern Terrority and W A
    Let us know when you coming won’t you
    Please and Thank You
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    1:46pm
    Maureen, Clive has got one in the area and it’s bigger than Adani.

    Goodbye Queensland.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:49pm
    Told yez for ages there is the thickness of a cigarette paper between Labor and LNP in reality when it comes to 'core' policy thrusts...

    Adani etc are NOT development - they are gouging out massive holes and paying no tax along the way while employing a very few people in reality. Royalties I've sliced and diced for yez upstairs a ways... the States reap it in hand over fist - they reckon - and then go with the begging bowl to Canberra for money out of YOUR pocket...

    waht it comes down ti is :- Just Like The Fed -
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:50pm
    (WRONG KEY) .. THEY CANNOT HANDLE THEIR MONEY!
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    3:49pm
    TREBOR, they are employing a handful of people that lack the capacity to be retrained for other job skills and can't get a DSP because there is nothing wrong with them.

    Gautam Shantilal Adani will be laughing all the way to the Cayman Islands.

    Queensland will find out it would have been cheaper for the economy and environment to put those workers on the DSP.
    Rae
    24th May 2019
    8:14am
    Queensland could have simply bottled the spring water and sold it to India and made more money. The whole situation is a grift from beginning to end.
    koshka
    22nd May 2019
    11:53am
    Two dogs are arguing about a “bone” grabbed by one of the dogs, the one which is big, strong, smart and powerful one. The other dog wishing to share the bone is: little, weak, frail and is dying of hunger. The powerful and dominant dog does not want to share the bone so runs away fast as it can and bury the bone…The other dog dies of starvation. The smart dog is joyful of course, hasn’t got a sense of right and wrong as some humans do…

    22nd May 2019
    11:53am
    No matter which way this subject is framed, the end result is that franking credit refunds have been shown to be a factor in Labor's loss. Why then would another political party want to go against public opinion? Labor's mish-mash of the policy wasn't helpful with some getting a refund and others missing out which clouded the issue to the extent that understanding it was difficult.

    Just as an aside, Plibersek hasn't done Labor any favours by blaming the voters for not understanding Labor's policies. In effect, she called those who voted against Labor as being stupid.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    11:56am
    She must be on the drugs her husband is selling
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    12:02pm
    If I had four investment properties like Plibersek does, I would not worry about franking credits either and the higher taxes most probably would not worry me either (I am sitting pretty and you, the voter, are stupid).
    Karl Marx
    22nd May 2019
    12:14pm
    Maureen, be was convicted over 30 years ago & has been clean ever since he did his time. He would of been investigated very thoroughly on every job he's had especially within the public service.
    Would appreciate your comments more without the mudslinging
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    12:58pm
    What the problem is SFR, is that anyone with a conviction carrying a gaol term in excess of 12 months is not allowed to work for the NSW Public Service. Because her husband was accepted contrary to this regulation, he has been allowed to continue. You may be surprised to know that there was a Labor government in NSW when this anomaly happened.
    Julian
    22nd May 2019
    1:02pm
    Interesting..she pulled out of the race for the leadership. The real reason being the elephant in her lounge room. Where is Labor's policy on "more women in politics"?. Albo has just announced that his party will play gender politics and load the shadow ministry with women. The usual hypocrisy from the epitome of the top end of town.
    ex PS
    22nd May 2019
    1:56pm
    Not so Old Man, you have to disclose your conviction, but it does not exclude you from consideration. My wife worked in a state government department right next to an admitted and convicted murderer for three years. It was clear cut, he came home from work early and ended up stabbing the man he found in his bed and dragging his wife into the kitchen where he cut her throat.
    All this happened under an LNP government and the man had no connections. Seems facts are often strangers to the right.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:57pm
    Franking is but one way of approaching personal income tax of shareholders, OM - the difference is negligible in the very vast majority of cases - those that currently fall below the tax free threshold or into the categories in which they pay some tax but not as high as the franking percentage (read up on how that is determined), will continue to receive all or some back, depending on their personal income tax liability.

    What needs, and I've discussed this before, to be done, is to oversee and review exactly how it is that some continue to gain thousands and millions in franked dividends, have no or little personal income to declare, apparently live on fresh air, yet enjoy the life of Riley..

    THERE, My Lord - THERE is your enemy!

    And - as I said - MorrisonCo is creeping up on those who do not declare their tax concerns in full - via an automated system that they do not discuss publicly for fear of starting an anti-Labor type stampede.

    The reality is, and has been for many years - that what a government says publicly is not what it is doing privately.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    1:59pm
    When is Labor going to learn that the kind of 'feminism' they are trying to sell - of enforced preference for women - will not go over with the electorate?

    Do they have a death wish or something?
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    2:00pm
    Old Man, Morrison wanted the win bad that’s why he put Clive at two.

    Morrison appointed a PR team in 2018 to overall his image.

    They turned him into ScoMo. He used all their no sense slogans and succeeded to fool voters.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5c_UO5PCklY
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    2:34pm
    Well, Bob, I'm not sure if this is the answer but if a retiree has shares which generate sole income then they declare the income on a tax return. As they have no other income, there is no tax withheld such as PAYE and they get the first $18,200 tax free. The next $18,800 is at $0.19¢ then the first $37,000 of taxable income attracts a tax debt of $3,572. Company tax is $0.27.5¢ so the franking credit will be $10,175. This allows a person to pay no tax and get a refund. This could be how one can earn $37,000, pay no tax and live on more than fresh air.

    jackie, Shorten lost because voters didn't want him or Bowen's policies. Shorten wanted to win just as much as Morrison. I like what Shorten contributed to why Labor lost when asked to explain what went wrong. His in-depth answer was "We didn't get enough votes". Tell me jackie, are you going to spend the next three years sulking or will you accept the will of the people?
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    9:14pm
    Maureen, Tanya has children and by attacking her husband you are hurting them. That is why she is not standing. He did his time reformed and married and had a family. But because of people like you who cannot be kind she has had to protect her children. Tanya is actually a very kind person and her husband is a good man I am sure because she has married him and made a family with him. People change and move on. So unfair to attack them!
    simo60
    22nd May 2019
    11:56am
    This writer does compare 2001 to now . How much has taxation increased in other years.What percentage of tax did we pay in 2001, compare it to now . Prices have gone up so GST has increased. This is not rocket science.
    dstark
    22nd May 2019
    11:58am
    What Labor liked to describe as a Howard loophole was actually introduced by Hawke to stop double taxation.
    Karl Marx
    22nd May 2019
    12:15pm
    Not completely true
    Julian
    22nd May 2019
    8:32pm
    It was hatched by Beazley in 98.
    ozrog
    22nd May 2019
    12:00pm
    LNP will get rid of franking credits. Knew it.
    B5YCK
    22nd May 2019
    12:15pm
    So your left leaning YLC has found an "expert" to dispute the use of franking credits.
    Couldn't you also have looked for another viewpoint?
    The share holders "own" the company. So when that company makes a profit that company pays tax on that amount. So that amount should be returned to that shareholder and added to their income and tax paid on the total amount of their earnings.

    Any other way is double dipping.
    So
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    6:37pm
    the shareholders are not the company. Come back and talk when company shareholders accept responsibility for its financial obligations when they go broke or wind up.
    Rae
    24th May 2019
    8:29am
    Would it be better to not include dividend payments as income in tax returns. The tax has been paid. So issue the dividend as a seperate payment to shareholders not included in taxable income. So no double taxation and no need for refund cheques.

    The control over people in Australia makes me think we are still running as a penal colony.

    Enough interference already.
    Farside
    24th May 2019
    11:49am
    Rae, I don't know whether the approach you suggest was considered however it appears to achieve the desired end of eliminating double taxation with the bonus of being simple to implement and understand. Note that unfranked dividends and the unfranked portion of part-franked dividends would still need to be included in the recipient's taxable income.
    MO6B
    22nd May 2019
    12:33pm
    For those with a significant SMSF the name should be changed to TRMSF....Tax payer Refund Managed Super Fund. It is a rort and always has been since Howard brought it in. Surely there are better ways to spend our taxes than holding up non taxpayers and their incomes.
    Congratulations on a very successful scare campaign....just a shame that our schools, hospitals, child care and aged care are missing out on that 6 billion.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    12:37pm
    Whatever MO6B
    You have no idea what you’re talking about
    Agnes
    22nd May 2019
    1:51pm
    So you are arguing that the LNP's "scare campaign" was more successful than the ALP scare campaign? Doesn't say much about the ALP's debating skills, or ability to sell (an admittedly defective) product.
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    2:04pm
    MO6B, I agree. Well posted. Thank you.
    libsareliars
    22nd May 2019
    4:25pm
    M06B, totally agree with you. Nailed it.
    Captain
    22nd May 2019
    5:35pm
    MO6B, what amount makes a SMSF significant?
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    5:38pm
    The Murdoch press plus Palmer have to take a lot of credit. Advice to hide most of the LNP people was another winner. A bit like the Trump thing and Brexit, people will be sorry later on.
    Rae
    24th May 2019
    8:35am
    An expensive way to force people to save and invest. Tax concessions for saving for yourself in Superannuation. What a stupid idea.

    If we can't afford SMSFs we can't afford to rebate taxes to people in Industry or Retail Funds either can we?

    Tens of billions there for schools, hospitals etc. How come the public pay for private businesses anyway if we are broke? Just fund the public services and let the business owners sort their own funding out.
    MO6B
    22nd May 2019
    12:35pm
    The Liberal Party already had this on their agenda. They just didn't say it out loud. There are better ways to invest our money.....
    Agnes
    22nd May 2019
    2:22pm
    Define " better"
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    12:43pm
    Easy - abolish franked dividends, company pays company taxes - individual pays personal income tax - no more arguments and zero change for the majority who already don't pay tax.

    For the last time - Company Tax is NOT tax paid by shareholders and does not become part of their personal income tax - it is company tax pure paid by the company and individuals pay personal income tax as calculated. Dividend franking is tax paid ON BEHALF of the shareholder by the company and must be included as part of gross income by the shareholder for tax calculation, AS ALREADY APPLIES.

    There really is no argument here.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    12:45pm
    What a confusing post . Makes no sense and one sentence contradicts another
    No wonder labor lost with supporters Lomé yourself who just don’t get it
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    2:07pm
    Maureen, it’s simple abolish Franking Credits no more problems. That 4% can invest their money elsewhere.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    6:41pm
    Farside , you made sense until the last sentence
    Shows your logic to be zilch
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    8:04pm
    Trebor, there are good reasons for keeping franked dividends. Dividend imputation was the solution to inconsistent treatment of company capital. Interest on debt was taxed once, equity was taxed twice - once at company and again as shareholder income. Works fine for taxpayers but refunding to non-taxpayers is taxing that proportion of company profits zilch.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    8:07pm
    Omg tis the blind (farside) leading the blind (Trebor)

    Knock yer selves out kiddies
    Rae
    24th May 2019
    8:42am
    Farside don't include imputed dividend payments as income. Simple. If tax has been paid then it can be issued as a post tax payment and not added to income.

    That would of course lower income for a lot of people and mess the asset/income/ deeming /dreaming nonsense up but it's a pretty messed up and inequitable mess anyway about now.

    The whole thing needs a reboot.
    Farside
    24th May 2019
    11:52am
    Rae, your idea is worth considering as the old approach is not going to get up any time soon. A reboot of the tax system is decades overdue.
    Trueblueozzie
    22nd May 2019
    12:44pm
    Well I believe the ALP had it right when it came too changing some of the John Howard / Liberal Parties Tax Policies. With an ever fast growing Ageing Population the Country can not afford these handouts.
    Not forgetting negative gearing, that has to be rained in also. As a pensioner I know how hard it is living on it, but I stop a think of those worse off than myself.
    The unemployed !!! Yes they don't get free transport to job interviews, too the Shops or Social events. Their expected to live on approx $270 a F/N, pay rent out of that, buy groceries, medical expenses that don't come under the banner of free, cloth them selves for Job Interviews and that's all before Birthdays,Christmas etc. As seniors we need to think of others besides our selves especially the young, after all with out the young working and spending money there's no Taxes to pay our pensions.
    I've also read that we are in a recession but the Government won't admit to that either.

    The ALP had it right this time, but Clive Parmer, the Libs and Nats ran a hudge scare campaigns.
    Since the "white ant Abbott" lied about the ABC etc., we now, like the US have lieing and blanton dishonesty come into our political system.

    Above all I expect honesty from our political leaders.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    12:49pm
    That’s right . Keep blaming everyone else except the destructive policies labor put forward and the dishonest leaders spruiking their stupid policies
    Agnes
    22nd May 2019
    1:36pm
    Hate to point out the bleeding obvious TBO but if Labor had it so right, wouldn't they be in government now??? The electorate chose quite rightly to reject them. It was the ALP who invented scare campaigns after all, (Mediscare) and even then the electorate saw right through them, as they have done in the this recent election. You seem to be arguing that that the LNP are more competent than the ALP, in everything they do. As you say " I believe" and that is all it is , your beliefs and your opinions. The rest of the electorate clearly has a different set of beliefs, and values which include voting for the best party to be in government, governing for, and looking after all Australians....yes even you.
    KSS
    22nd May 2019
    1:58pm
    TBO get over yourself. Read the NLP budget papers released just before the election. The ABC gets $3.16 billion a year. The cut was just $14.6 million for next year.

    For goodness sake they can save that amount when Mr Jones and a couple more overpaid so called journalists leave. Finding savings of such a relatively small sum should not be beyond the capabilities of such an erstwhile organisation. Pretty sure Ms Buttrose will have no problem finding where jam can be spread a little thinner.
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    7:36pm
    Yes I agree we need to start caring about the youth. Some on here have given us oldies a bad name. Maybe use the franking credits towards building a better world for the young ones. Lots have said they would want that. Not everyone wants to keep the money from the franking credits.
    Also, the negative gearing on older homes from next year should be used towards helping our grandchildren into their own homes over the next 20 years.
    Hospitals and schools can be funded better as well.
    So sad people did not put the ones to come after us before having more than we need now.
    casey
    22nd May 2019
    12:46pm
    If money which I have invested is taxed on the profit it makes, why is it wrong to get a tax refund on a percentage of the tax paid. Is it any different to someone who pays PAYE tax getting a refund on the tax they have paid.
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    8:06pm
    yes, a company is different entity to a person
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    8:21pm
    How is profits made by a llc owned by shareholders different to profits attributable to partners in a partnership
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    8:44pm
    Maureen, I'm sure you know the difference hence why you ask about a llc so why troll unless you are trying to deliberately confuse people?

    But for casey, a company is a separate entity to a partnership, both are different to sole proprietors and trusts.

    https://www.business.gov.au/planning/business-structures-and-types
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    8:48pm
    So why do you propose that their profits he treated differently
    Taxed twice if you own a company , but taxed once if you are a sole proprietor or own a partnership
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    9:17pm
    Maureen, I don't propose profits be taxed twice. Dividend imputation results in company profits being taxed once; the FCs result in divs paid to individuals being incrementally taxed at individual marginal rate so franked amount not taxed again but you already know this. It is refunding to non-taxpayers that I disagree as it is giving the company tax paid to the shareholder. Repeal the Howard changes and I will be happy with it.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    9:22pm
    You just confirmed that you want company profits to be taxed differently (more oppresivelu) than partnerships , sole proprietorships , share investments or employment profits )

    Get your act together old chap
    Farside
    23rd May 2019
    12:29am
    I have no issue with company tax rate being different to individual tax rates. You see it as oppressive, I do not. Investors will choose the most appropriate business structure for their needs and taxation is only one of many factors to consider. I have never favoured a single tax rate for individuals let alone including companies in the mix.
    Fready
    22nd May 2019
    12:51pm
    If anything has to be done the existing arrangement should be grandfathered for those already in the system and the new arrangement phased in over several years so that those approaching retirement can modify their retirement arrangements.
    The next step is to look at the aged pension because it is similarly unsustainable. Best investment ever. You can get it without ever contributing a dollar in income tax.
    KSS
    22nd May 2019
    1:00pm
    Oh No! Its going to be a very long three years!

    Not one of you with all your 'I knew it conspiracy theories' are privy to the inner workings of any political party nor did you offer yourselves up for election.

    Can you all get over your 4 day pity party, stop blaming Mr Palmer, Ms Hanson, NLP scare campaigns and the next door neighbour's cat and just accept that the ALP, aided and abetted by the Greens and Get-Up, went to the electorate with an arrogant attitude and bad policies and lost.
    jackie
    22nd May 2019
    5:49pm
    KSS, and May I remind everyone to stop worrying about money if they are not starving or homeless. Enjoy and reap your rewards and go on a cruise. Life is too short. Just sayin.
    Lookfar
    22nd May 2019
    1:10pm
    Particularly Maureen, and also all who sail withal, I suspect you have ridden over base principles, which, when all others present, are absolute.
    Australia is an Island in the southern hemisphere, of the planet Earth, have you any disagreement with that? - if not I assume you agree with all my following arguments derived therefrom?
    The people who inhabit it call themselves Australians, they have, after destroying the previous bunch of people living here, basically, (although not totally, to their credit). divided up the country in accord with various values arising from essentially, the English nationals that conquered it by killing the previous inhabitants, - who had in their turn killed the earlier previous inhabitants also.
    However, the British Empire, supplanting the previous Roman Empire, established, at the time it invaded Australia, also the Legal principles it had, in Australia, which were basically around a developing Democracy.
    The white people, who came to live in Australia, (Oz) became the dominant group in Australia, adhered to these principles, and gradually developed Australia as a Nation, coming together in 1901 to formally separate from the British empire, although carrying many of it's legal systems and ways of thinking, (and also some ways of thinking from Roman times) but nontheless a Nation recognised by all the other nations at that time all over the planet Earth, and which is still the case, - so, Australia is owned by the Australians, not all could vote at that time, but since all can now vote, even the conquered indigenous people, because Australia was set up as a Christian country/Nation, on the basis that Christ died for all, that each person can accept the Christ within, - all our laws reflected that, eg the Law of Torts, and all of our National ceremonies included honouring of that, and it is written into our Constitution, the which can not be changed without the Agreement of the Majority of all Australians.

    At that time, wealthy people came into Australia, and since more and more, eager to grab a principle share of what the Australian Nation was growing, then mining, and inventing, etc. - they were and are not 'more" Australian than any other Australian, although they have bribed their way into so being treated by Australian politicians, totally Illegally.
    Now they have established their religion, - the religion of the Super Rich, which says - "Rich is good, therefore Rich people are smart, therefore Rich people should rule."
    That attitude is not supported by the Australian Constitution nor Australian Law, nor Christianity, ( - remember, "it is more difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle") nor the egalitarian lifestyle developed in Australia before the envelopment by American culture propaganda.
    This 'invasion by the rich has divided our nation, so some people have a bigger share of Australia's wealh than others, - which never seems to satisfy them, - they always want 'more and more' and characterise those who they have robbed and disenfranchised as Bludgers, leaners, whingers, etc. etc. who they will go to almost any step to deny those they have robbed of even the paltry bit they have, - being totally possessed by the rich rich rich thing, - a deviant sichness that destroyed tome by denying their soliers their wages, thus leaving the soldiers to leave te army thus leaving the Goths etc to walk into Rome, piss on the Senators, then kill them and take everything.
    Served them right, but why can't ordinary Australians learn that when you dance with the devil, you lose your soul? - After all, the Devil owns the media, isn't that obvious?
    Agnes
    22nd May 2019
    1:48pm
    Basic philosophy 101 tells us that there are no principles that are absolute. Perhaps you are not sure of the definition of absolute. But I take your point, the Australia of today is for all Australian rich or poor, of whatever race. Could you give me your reference for where I could verify your point whereby the "religion" of the rich has been established, and that they want more and more (there must be a random controlled trial to establish that). I am not sure what your definition of rich is,( but please tell us ) but I do know that the front bench of the ALP is very rich (in terms of money indeed). It is also widely reported that very wealthy in this country ( and other Western Countries) give a great deal to charity.
    Ronin
    22nd May 2019
    1:28pm
    Introduce the reform, but 'grandfather' it for current beneficiaries for 5 years. That should work.
    Agnes
    22nd May 2019
    2:19pm
    Agreed Ronin, Shorten et al made the classic Whitlam mistake....trying to do much all at once. With some grandfathering perhaps, some capping ( e.g. a limit of $20,000 for franking credits) the electorate may have listened a little more ( especially if the ALP had a better, more intellectually equipped leader, who didn't come across as either a con man or a dullard). The electorate is not unreasonable, they are by and large well considered when it comes to voting, and may have accepted more modest steps, and a slower more graded pace, on all that the ALP was offering.You see I have faith in the Australian Public, the attitude of the ALP supporters on here (and their front bench like Wong and Plibersek), is well the electorate didn't agree therefore they must be stupid, moronic and wrong etc. How unbelievably narcissistic, sneering and supercilious is that for an attitude. And that latter part perhaps explains the ALP loss even more than their unbelievably flawed policies.
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    8:12pm
    as I understand it grandfathering the reforms would have made little difference as many voters do not understand the term. I know from first hand experience that many pensioners, including some without shares, had the impression Labor was taking away their money.
    maelcolium
    22nd May 2019
    1:34pm
    One of the big four accounting firms signalling for their employer the Federal Government that franking credits are going to be blitzed by the LNP. I'm laughing my tits off on this one thinking about all the clowns in here who accused the ALP of dipping into their had earned! It was always going to happen just like the negative gearing arrangements, but now the LNP will write legislation that will benefit their mates at the expense of the wage earners and pensioners who have a bit of investment on the side. You got what you voted for idiots.

    Oh, and the QLD ALP are now so scared of Palmer that they are now paving the way for Adani approval so that other leaseholders of Galliea Basin can exploit the resource. Another own goal by the electorate!

    We are the most polluting, backward looking, self interested country in the world. And we imprison asylum seekers to boot. Ashamed to be an Australian.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    1:37pm
    Taking the next flight to Dunedin matey ?
    Bon Voyage
    Agnes
    22nd May 2019
    1:38pm
    That's right Mael. the electorate got it so right. They rejected those that would have made a great country worse.
    KSS
    22nd May 2019
    1:38pm
    Ashamed to be Australian? Well no one is forcing you to stay maelcolium. You are free to leave at any time and go somewhere you will feel happier.
    Lookfar
    22nd May 2019
    7:09pm
    Hi Maelcollum, I notice the three replies to your letter, inviting/demanding you to leave Australia, the which is interesting, as it is not the sort of response you would expect of people living in a Democracy, where we all have a point of view and try to sort it out, but rather the point of view of a hard line totalitarian regime, - my way or the highway, - N Korea, China, - lots of others, - it occurred to me that they, the Non-Democratic people should really be the ones that should leave, - only that there are huge numbers of displaced people all over the world fleeing from such regimes already and why should Maureen, Digby, etc. be added to that massive world problem, perhaps we could discuss with them so they could stay here and sort it out with us Ozzies? - perhaps a Re-hab program..
    Just a thought, Geoff, (Lookfar) Cheers.
    Paddington
    23rd May 2019
    8:09pm
    maelcolium, I hear you and agree with you. Many are feeling the same way.
    The NZ PM puts kindness as an important ingredient and when you think about it, she is right. The world admired her after their recent tragedy for how she handled the aftermath and kindness was her mantle.
    People on the right seem to be the most unkind.
    80 plus
    22nd May 2019
    1:39pm
    I own a hand full of shares, my income is sow low I do not pay income tax, part of my share dividend is taxed at 30%, the Franking credit is returned to me as my income is so low I am not required to pay income tax, taxing some of my $400 dividend cannot be fair when all around me people are getting tax refunds, tax credits and if a ABN holder a GST refund on VEHICLE,HOUSE INSURANCE. If the franking credit is cancelled I will be paying more tax than The News Corporaion.
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    7:41pm
    80 plus, you must be getting the Seniors Health Card then?
    I can’t actually follow hat you are saying?
    How much do you get?
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    8:17pm
    80 plus says " all around me people are getting tax refunds, tax credits and if a ABN holder a GST refund on VEHICLE,HOUSE INSURANCE.". Newsflash!!! those people all around you are paying tax .
    Lookfar
    22nd May 2019
    1:42pm
    Part 2, Why a slight majority of Australians voted for the Liberal Party despite it have'ing no vision for the future, having brought Australia's economy to an all time low?
    The answer is, condtioned responses stimulated by Fear.
    Start with, Government by the Majority of Voters = Democracy ! Of course it then requires that the Voters have an obligation to be well infomed, that is why they should rule, - voters who vote completely from time worn and usually false cliches are not well informed, and to the extent that they operate out of that automatic thoughtless mindless space, are arguably not even human at that time. - A good example is the assertion by the Liberal Party that Liberals are good economic managers, - yet at the last financial crisis, when Australia had the good luck to have a Labour Govt. the principle of stimulating the economy at such time was applied, meant that Australia was one of the few developed trading economies not to suffer very much. which goes to show that there should not be just one fixed way of economic management, but knowledgeable and flexible ways need to be applied appropriately to different circumstances, which tells us just how dangerous and useless voting out of cliches is; - indeed I may add drily, that the current state of Australia's economy, after two terms of Liberal Govt, is looking rather woeful, which just affirms the argument that neither the people nor the Govt can just run on Automatic, but both need to be informed and interactive with each other. - Voting from Cliches will not alter the situation of acting out of mindless habit, but rather set it in concrete, like a dictatorship. A living society is characterised by vigorous debate, lot's of new ideas, a willingness to change, and respect for all other members, - remembering that respect has now to be earned, as we have evolved beyond being happy to just do and think what we are told.
    I have no idea where a Govt elected from pressing peoples' button's by invoking fear will lead us, - except quite probably condemning our children to a miserable and declining existence, bit it doesn't look good.
    Agnes
    22nd May 2019
    2:05pm
    Well it certainly doesn't look good for those people who believed that Labor had some decent policies. "Not even human at the time"....judgemental much. Typical ALP voter with strong sense of narcissism, self entitlement, and very false sense of superiority. From a psychopathological point of view , primitive personality construction, disordered thinking, and archetypical defence mechanisms. see we can all throw a few long words around. The Liberals have consistently proved themselves the better economic managers at State and Federal level, but in the end analysis it's just various points of view, based on the perception of various bits of history. The fact that we have not had a recession in so many years is more to do with the LNP than anything else, after they have been in government for the longest.
    Lookfar
    22nd May 2019
    5:05pm
    Digby, your opening sentence makes no sense at all, a person operating on cliches is in the Associative Thinking mode, - the normal mode when you are walking around the supermarket and things 'leap out at you and you buy them,' - Advertisers drool at getting people into that non- human 'reactive to stimulus without the brain involved state'
    Watching television tends to encourage that state. Advertisers hate people that read the product labels, that is why they are always trying to get the labels to say nothing, - this has been a long battle by consumer group.
    As a very rare Labour voter, I find your insults laughable, it sounds like you are describing donald Trump, maybe you would like to be him?
    I understand you don' t know what you are talking about and have noticed you can be quite nasty on this website, - typical liberal voter.. - Whatever, there have been no major recessions in the last 6 years, Australia as a trading nation is mostly vulnerable to world wide recessions, - so the Liberals have had no recession to prove your point, but their blind adherence to feeding the big end of town is slowly destroying the Australian economy, - in the Economy, what goes around comes around, but if what goes around is syphoned overseas, there is nothing to come around, - no great amount of intelligence required to see that.
    Thing with Fear, is that fear constricts you, emotions like caring and sympathy are backlined, a more basic and less functional human happens when under the grip of fear, - simple basic fight or flight responses, no thought of any future except momentary.
    Voting requires more than momentary self interest because you are part of a Democracy.
    You may say that I think i am superior to everybody else, but I am just as susceptible to falling into fear in a life threatening situation, - so it is just that I am saying that you need to be aware that the politicians have activated that lower level of intellectual functioning in you, without you noticing, and that you need to be fully functioning when you vote because you are voting for the future of your Grand-Children, and possibly the whole Human race: certainly Australia is very/most vulneranle to Climate degradation
    All human beings are just as superior as me when calm and thinking clearly, only the ones in cliche mode are not properly human, - and Associative thinking can come with laziness as well.
    What I am telling you is not points of view, nor, in my humble opinion is what has been researched about with decaying climate.
    Agnes
    23rd May 2019
    9:11am
    Are you quite well Lookfar?. Your writings are thought disordered in the extreme, and make no sense whatsoever, there is no logical thread to follow, even when one takes poor language formation, and deficient grammatical use into account They are a rave and rant with no meaningful thought to be deduced. You are displaying classic "looseness of associations".On review, my opening sentence expressed my view of things perfectly adequately.What are trying to say are merely your points of view and nothing else. The ALP voters here are the ones with a moratorium on nastiness (typical of a Labor voter), they are only reaping what they sow. Those who predict catastrophe often secretly want it to increase their own perceived power and disordered sense of right. I hesitate to say anything else to you as I fear making your mental state worse.
    libsareliars
    22nd May 2019
    2:10pm
    Why didn't you bring this article out during the election?
    Lookfar
    22nd May 2019
    5:15pm
    Dear Libsareliars, sorry, - nobody asked me, I have posted many times on YLC, often I feel I have not communicated successfully, but get very little feedback, in terms of questions.
    I thrive on questions, then I can bring more creative ideas into the mix of YLC discussion.
    Not that I am the only one with creative ideas, but I am one.
    TREBOR
    22nd May 2019
    2:10pm
    I'm going to have 'Dividend Imputation' listed as a 'trigger' word requiring a space space... mere mention of the term means an instant junkyard dog fight...

    Government loves it... keeps you distracted from the realities....
    Agnes
    22nd May 2019
    2:21pm
    Well said Trebor, I think I will have the words" Franking Credit" as my call tone.
    Wake Up
    22nd May 2019
    2:36pm
    Liberals 2014 budget reduced the asset limit by $300,000 to stop retirees getting a small part pension. If they remove the imputation credit also from these same retirees they will just have to draw down more from there capital to make up the difference & then they will be back on a part Old Age Pension again. So I suppose the wise thinkers of this once lucky country will just prepose a further cut in the asset limit. Seems to me like small minded thinking & a spiral down the gurgler for retirees who have tried the save the country by planning for there retirement. And it will never be a level playing field until the family home is taken into the assets limit account.
    Wake Up
    22nd May 2019
    2:46pm
    And the big end of town as they call it wont be affected as they be able to offset the franking credit against income received from there property portfolios which also receive generous tax treatment
    Mad as Hell
    22nd May 2019
    2:37pm
    15 % GST would have been a better option in 2017 instead of stealing part pensioners assets with the changes to the Pensioner Assets Test.

    It was a budget emergency and all would have contributed, low incomes need to compensated for any increase in GST.
    Mad as Hell
    22nd May 2019
    3:07pm
    Now part pensioners have had a hit on their retirement pensions and probably a GST increase as well.
    KSS
    22nd May 2019
    4:03pm
    If you have a part pension then you must also have other assets to fund your retirement. So what is the issue?
    Mad as Hell
    22nd May 2019
    5:38pm
    KSS the issue is moving the goal posts after I retired.
    I’m now getting half of what I was entitled to before 2017.
    Did any retired politician take a cut in their entitlements?
    If you bought a new car that had five years warranty, you are entitled to five years warranty not two and a half years warranty.
    Farside
    22nd May 2019
    8:23pm
    agreed Mad As Hell, 15% no exemptions, compensate the vulnerable for the increase in cost of living would have been preferable. But many of the affected cohort are on board with changes or decided not to seek retribution.
    Sceptic
    22nd May 2019
    2:50pm
    We have the comments that you should not get a tax refund when you haven't paid tax, but no mention that the franking credit is entered onto the tax return as income that you have received when you haven't received it. Thus making the franking credit taxable income but not received.
    Adrianus
    22nd May 2019
    3:41pm
    "An analysis by the PBO found that 53 per cent of excess franking credits claimed by self-managed super funds (SMSFs) were to funds with more than $2.44 million in assets. Funds with more than $1 million claimed 82 per cent of the franking credits, worth $2.1 billion a year, The Australian reports."


    A mute point really, considering the anti franking credit fraternity want big industry funds to keep their franking credits. By the way, why not talk in terms of member balance rather than the entire fund balance? The majority of SMSFs have 4 members or less and quite a few have more.
    Rae
    24th May 2019
    9:34am
    That was a sticking point.

    Also quarantining aged pensioners implied the whole thing was wrong. If it wasn't wrong why protect welfare recipients and hit up savers.

    And it's not about being "rich" as some full aged pensioners are very wealthy if you count their homes in the sums.
    Farside
    24th May 2019
    7:29pm
    I met full pensioners that did not even own shares but nevertheless were very upset about the prospect of them losing their franking credit refunds.
    Rae
    25th May 2019
    7:44am
    Yes Farside the election was dirty. Bowens contempt didn't help.
    Paddington
    26th May 2019
    7:09pm
    Farside, I mentioned franking credits to my sister and she asked, what’s that?
    I heard people were upset because Grandma would not be ale to buy birthday and Xmas presents any more. People who do not participate in all this have no idea what they are but assume it will affect because they heard it from someone.
    Bakka
    22nd May 2019
    3:45pm
    A little off topic here.. but just coped a phone survey call re effects of franking credits in voting influence
    Told the caller that in our wider family it cost Labour 6 votes !!!, being Dad,Mum and our 4 children ( who normally vote Labour) . Reason ... Labour not only threatened to take money away from us but they also vilified and humilitated us in the process to help justify the policy .. however in doing so they incurred the rath of our children who saw this attack as a personal affront to their parents..
    All to late now but maybe the strategists should have thought this through a bit more before they launched that personal attack on a section of the community who were after all doing nothing illegal.
    casey
    22nd May 2019
    3:47pm
    I agree.
    Adrianus
    22nd May 2019
    3:55pm
    Labor wants the big four accounting firms Deloitte, EY, KPMG and PwC to disclose how much tax they pay as a condition of winning big government contacts.
    The firms, which would fight the proposal fiercely, explained to the opposition during the ongoing inquiry into government procurement that in a partnership, income is generally distributed to individual partners who then pay income tax according to their personal circumstances.
    Labor, which is partly financed by public sector unions, raised the prospect of the private partnerships being made to file financial statements with the corporate regulator as part of an attack upon the firms over their lucrative government contracts.
    Rae
    24th May 2019
    9:41am
    If we knew how much taxes were being spent on this "contracting" business there would be riots.

    Close to 50% of funding for the NDIS and Aged Care now gets lost to the providers ( contracts) for management and profit costs.

    Similar problems exist for job provision, centrelink etc etc.

    The kickbacks to whoever must be huge to encourage contracts. Many not transparent but commercial in confidence and we mug punter savers are picking up the tab.

    Any plans for when all the savings are gone?
    Adrianus
    26th May 2019
    9:54am
    Now you're understanding the left ideology. Where do you think Labor's additional $14B donation to education was going? We know who was paying it, workers and retirees. There are only 3 classes in the left utopian future. Big Business, Proletarians and Political. Where do we fit in?
    DaveL
    22nd May 2019
    4:13pm
    Tax and welfare need reform. Singling out one item will not solve the greed problem. Increasing the GST is an economists approach, a very soft option to solve the poor systems we now have. Progressive style income tax system should be kept, not what LNP want.
    Paddington
    26th May 2019
    7:12pm
    Rubbish! Franking credits are costing billions and that is going to increase. At some point it will have to stop.
    Buggsie
    22nd May 2019
    4:34pm
    Franking credits and capital gains tax were handy anvils on which to bang Labor heads during the election campaign. They are probably both dead, at least in the medium term. However both State and the Federal governments will need more income to keep our economy afloat during the rapidly approaching economic downturn. The GST is the logical and fairest contender, probably to be raised to at least 15%, with suitable compensation for pensioners and those on very low incomes. Personally I am pleased that labor lost the election, not because of their policies but simply because they now cannot be blamed for the economic mess (with LNP massive cuts to health, education and welfare) that is fast approaching. I have taken action to recession proof my capital and will watch with interest as those of you with large share portfolios watch their values drop as they did in the GFC. Bet there will be less focus on franking credits then!
    GD
    22nd May 2019
    5:33pm
    This is a load of bunkum. How can you a magazine dedicated to the Seniors open up this can of worms, when it was declared by ScoMo that it would not happen. Franking credits taxes are paid for by the company and Australian doesn't need to have a scare campaign re-emerge. You should be a shame of yourself for publishing this.
    Lookfar
    22nd May 2019
    5:56pm
    GD, You can't tell us what and how to think, the Franking Credit issue has nothing to do with an Automaticman poilitician such as scomo, - who in their right mind would value such?
    The truth will out, and it should, how else can we bring these self weening reprobates to heel?
    What, you think we should just lie down and let them rape/run over us?
    Does that help us?
    Lookfar
    22nd May 2019
    6:00pm
    GD, You can't tell us what and how to think, the Franking Credit issue has nothing to do with an Automaticman poilitician such as scomo, - who in their right mind would value such?
    The truth will out, and it should, how else can we bring these self weening reprobates to heel?
    What, you think we should just lie down and let them rape/run over us?
    Does that help us?
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    6:21pm
    Eh I think that rape comment should be addressed to Shorten , don’t you ?
    Paddington
    22nd May 2019
    7:47pm
    You can leave him alone now Maureen as he has not got your fc.
    No wonder Tanya did not stand, people like you attack and attack...
    travelman
    22nd May 2019
    6:27pm
    Rankin Credits, tax cuts, big companies who owe millions in unpaid taxes through loopholes etc, because of a Tax Department that is so inept and incompetent; I just can't help wonder we either will go bankrupt as a nation or find of most of the nation living in abject poverty. This current government showed, by their undesired to bring the banks to 'account', I really can't see them doing a complete rebuild of the tax system. I firmly believe with a proper tax system bringing the correct taxes on all Australians, rich and poor, small companies and large companies, we would have millions more of money in the public purse; and I believe all would be paying less tax except for criminals who would be paying their unpaid taxes, accrued over a decade. We just need this government to start doing something positive with our economy. Then we might not be concerned by franking credits until further down the track and make it easier for the those who are not rich. I itch to get a chance to look at the operation of our Tax Dept. I believe I would be shocked by how they do things and how disorganised they are - so much to be changed - I sometimes think we should scrap the system and start anew from the ground up.
    travelman
    22nd May 2019
    6:27pm
    Rankin Credits, tax cuts, big companies who owe millions in unpaid taxes through loopholes etc, because of a Tax Department that is so inept and incompetent; I just can't help wonder we either will go bankrupt as a nation or find of most of the nation living in abject poverty. This current government showed, by their undesired to bring the banks to 'account', I really can't see them doing a complete rebuild of the tax system. I firmly believe with a proper tax system bringing the correct taxes on all Australians, rich and poor, small companies and large companies, we would have millions more of money in the public purse; and I believe all would be paying less tax except for criminals who would be paying their unpaid taxes, accrued over a decade. We just need this government to start doing something positive with our economy. Then we might not be concerned by franking credits until further down the track and make it easier for the those who are not rich. I itch to get a chance to look at the operation of our Tax Dept. I believe I would be shocked by how they do things and how disorganised they are - so much to be changed - I sometimes think we should scrap the system and start anew from the ground up.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    6:29pm
    You been listening to.too much b/s from labor and greens mate
    If I were you I’d keep travelling and forget about thinking
    travelman
    22nd May 2019
    6:38pm
    I read the comments of others and chickens, they are pecking away at the edges which will never change anything except to add more complexity to an already broken system.

    If you car is a problem, old and often breaking down, the best you can do, if you're not a mechanic, go and buy a new one. We have to do the same when governments or systems are broken; you have to replace them with a new one that is tested and works. An old saying is, 'that which is designed to be simple, it is usually the best and reliable'.
    travelman
    22nd May 2019
    6:47pm
    Well Maureen it is obvious your not a thinker otherwise you wouldn't write such crap. By the way I only spoke about our government and not about Labour or greens - you must get some reading lessons or some new glasses.
    travelman
    22nd May 2019
    6:47pm
    Well Maureen it is obvious your not a thinker otherwise you wouldn't write such crap. By the way I only spoke about our government and not about Labour or greens - you must get some reading lessons or some new glasses.
    Lookfar
    22nd May 2019
    7:31pm
    Well, Travelman, appreciate your comments, (btw u only need to press 'post Reply once,) and since here we are at the lonely end of the comments, I thought you might enjoy this essay, "Machines That Cannot Fail" - felt you may appreciate it..

    notes from a personal odyssey, by Don Cruse


    While still a young man, serving with the British army in Egypt, I was put in charge of daytime maintenance at the Fayid transmitter station on the Suez canal. It contained more than 50 medium and high power short-wave radio transmitters, used by the army to keep in contact with its bases in England and in other parts of the world. The reason I was given the job, was that I had demonstrated a certain knack. I knew how to get defective transmitters operating again quickly, and back on the air with minimum delay. For some reason this came naturally to me, but not to quite a few others with similar training, and I remember asking myself why this was the case. What was it that prevented certain technicians from finding defects that seemed to me fairly obvious?

    The answer came to me one day while watching someone experiencing this kind of difficulty. It was that the technician in question clearly did not fully understand the function or purpose of parts that he was trying to repair, and so could not go straight to the heart of the problem. Instead he played a game of trial and error, which took a great deal of time and often did more damage than good.

    I do not think that I was special in this regard. Every good technician or repairman needs first a thorough grasp of the function that the equipment they are working on was intended to perform by its original designer. Not to have this can be a serious impediment, one can neither repair nor improve upon something that one has not first understood. What was different for me was that in later years I came to formulate this into a kind of philosophic principle, which can be simply stated as follows: a machine can fail only in relation to its purpose, i.e. when it no can longer do the job for which it was designed.

    Machines that cannot fail
    After my stint in Egypt I returned to England, and then emigrated to Canada. Here I established my own business as a radio, TV and electronics technician, and also took up the part-time study of philosophy at the University of Alberta, where I recall how with growing puzzlement I gradually became aware that what was so obvious to me as a technician, that a machine can fail only in relation to its purpose, was for some reason not obvious to the great minds whose works I studied. They wrote, for example, of 'random mutations' occurring in a purposeless but mechanistic universe.

    At first I was sure that I had missed something important; everyone I talked to about it thought that I was wrong, but no one seemed able to tell me why. As the years went by and my studies continued and deepened, the conviction began to grow on me that something was indeed very seriously wrong in the abstract realm of modern philosophy. Because scientific materialism, that most influential of modern world views, had made use of the word 'mechanism' in a manner that contradicted all that experience had taught me, and had even turned this into a dictionary definition, i.e. that "mechanism = materialism." Materialism denies the possibility that 'ideas' are at work in the natural world (excepting, strangely enough, in human thought), and for purposes to exist in nature there would have to be ideas at work there also. Where science is concerned, to attribute purpose to any natural phenomena is to embrace teleology, a theological concept the overcoming of which had been an essential step in its own emancipation from religion. Imagine my state of mind, therefore, when faced with the following conundrum: If natural machines (organisms) have no purpose, then how can they ever be said to malfunction, because failure to function is possible only in relation to a purpose, i.e. in relation to an indwelling idea like that undeniably present in any man-made machine?

    That organisms do fail is self-evident, death and illness are all around us in nature, but I soon discovered that philosophers have explained this consciously, not as a failure in the sense that a machine fails, i.e. when caused by internal defects, but as a kind of cessation, such as we often see in the inorganic realm when the energy source that drives a given natural process becomes exhausted. This means—subject to appeal—that in materialistic philosophy no distinction whatever was being made between what happens when a natural organism develops an internal defect, and when it simply runs out of fuel. This is like failing to observe the essential difference between a car that won't run because its ignition switch is off, or its gas tank empty, and another with a broken crankshaft. Or a radio that is switched off, compared with one that has an internal short-circuit. In either case a technician who could not quickly discern the difference, would justifiably be fired on the spot. Yet philosophy, which normally thrives upon subtle distinctions, has yet to explore this one—how so?

    This is the essence of the problem that has troubled me now for many years: How is it possible that so vital a distinction, essential to any true understanding of man-made machinery, has not become the focus of intense interest and scrutiny in the discussion of so-called 'mechanistic' philosophy (materialism)? The reason for this, I have discovered, is as simple as its ramifications are profound. It is that the word 'mechanism' always carries the concept of purpose with it, it cannot help but do this because it is essential to its real meaning; and when left unexamined it helps greatly to make materialist philosophy appear plausible. The claim of 'purposelessness' can only be maintained if we ignore this word's subtle but undeniably powerful role in illegitimately importing the concept of purpose into materialism's explanatory equation, although it does this in an almost entirely unconscious manner. As matters now stand, the concept of purpose, for the reasons described above, is an anathema to materialistic and scientific thought; but because of the non-critical use of the word 'mechanism'.it is unconsciously active there, despite its claimed prohibition.

    To maintain this unconscious error, we must neglect to observe or to consider the evidence that points to the existence in nature of the kind of failure which can only occur in relation to a purpose. So we have uncritically substituted 'cessation.' I am not claiming that this was a deliberate deception. I suspect that at first it was an entirely unconscious one, required perhaps by the forces at work in the background of human understanding, but a mistake it clearly was, and a truly monumental one.

    Anyone who has had the opportunity to read my book Evolution and the New Gnosis will be aware that this question has opened for me a veritable Pandora's box, filled with consequences of almost unimaginable magnitude for both philosophy and science. If I am right in what I am saying, then the entire philosophic and scientific community has been deceiving itself now for centuries, and especially since the advent of Darwinism, into believing (1) that such things as purposeless and Designer-less organisms can exist; and (2) that we may explain their failure to go on working indefinitely, by unconsciously comparing their malfunctioning to that of a humanly designed and constructed machine, while neglecting to observe that real machines can fail only in relation to their purpose. Starting from the prior and unproven assumption that organisms do not embody either internal or external purposes, materialism then believes them to fail just as man-made machinery fails. Clearly this is a complete impossibility!

    In my book, written with the aid of my friend Robert Zimmer, this question is examined and discussed in some detail. The book is respectfully dedicated to Charles Darwin, who unwittingly built his entire theory upon this error, but it is also a tribute to the work of my own mentor, Owen Barfield, who has led the way in uncovering it. To crudely sum up what I am saying, I argue in the book that the word 'mechanism' has been unconsciously hi-jacked and wrongly employed by materialistic thought for centuries now, and that without this step materialism as a critical world view could never have appeared plausible. I also argue that we really needed the stepping-stone of materialism, but for reasons I shall not go into here, this need has come to an end.

    Historically speaking, science did away with God the Designer but kept the language of design, and used it in trying to materialistically explain nature's workings. This resulted in an erroneous use of language, an error historically spearheaded by the misapplication of the word 'mechanism.' There is now a growing awareness of the outright contradiction that results from this misapplication, and once this is well established both Darwinism and materialism will be recognized for what they have been all along, i.e. interesting and even necessary but logically false world views.

    That is the way that I see it, and so far no one has been able to show me where my argument goes astray, even though I have appealed to many good and even great minds, asking them repeatedly to correct me if I'm wrong, but none have yet done so.

    To my knowledge, Michael Polanyi is virtually alone among modern philosophers of science, in that he has clearly identified the very serious logical error that I am pointing to. However, he does this in language that is just a little bit opaque. He calls the structure or design of a machine "a boundary condition," and states that in understanding machines two factors must be taken into account, not just one. Science has long claimed that organisms are single-factor entities, and as such, they would be unable to either to work or stop working, i.e. they would behave like minerals. What Polanyi does not make clear, no doubt because of the academic climate of his time, is that the second-factor is and can only be, an 'idea,' a fact which places Polanyi squarely in the long-neglected tradition of the medieval scholastic Realist, who claimed that ideas, then termed 'universals,' were an essential part of the world's reality—its spiritual part.

    Materialism wants to believe, and wants us to believe, that only one creative force is at work in nature, 'natural law,' but natural law as it is now understood is by definition non-mental and immutable, and so completely failure-proof. Alone, therefore, it cannot lead to the internal breakdown of either an organism or a machine—except and unless their functioning is seen to be the result of that vital second factor. It is the clear and conscious recognition in science and philosophy of the existence of that second factor, which has been and still is being thwarted by what Owen Barfield called "the great tabu," which will be the subject of a future work by Robert and myself.

    I cannot stress enough, that this problem only exists for philosophic or scientific materialism, which assumes, but does not always overtly claim, the existence of a Monism of matter. The moment we add any spiritual dimension whatever to our world picture, we must then choose between a Cartesian dualism and a Monism of Mind. In either case the second factor becomes logically valid. In dualism, however, it is only seen to be valid within the context of the miraculous. To my mind the Cartesian contradiction causes dualism itself to be a profoundly defective world view, and so we are, as rational beings, left only with a Monism of Mind or thought. A new realm of scientific enquiry then legitimately opens before us, one in which the vast works of Owen Barfield's mentor, Rudolf Steiner, are undeniably paramount.

    When I think back, I realize that I have carried this problem now for forty years, since my first meeting with Owen Barfield in his London office in 1962, and perhaps even longer, if I take into account the preparatory experiences mentioned above. It is no doubt highly presumptuous of me, as a complete academic nonentity, to say and write the things I have, both here and in my book; yet in doing so I am also carrying on a respected tradition, that of the 'outsider.' Perhaps because academic philosophy does not have an exacting discipline imposed upon it, as a mechanic does, for example, by the need to make a machine function properly (i,e. an objective way of determining the truth) it can find itself very seriously at odds with the truth. And when that happens, it becomes very difficult for anyone within academia, even if they know the answers, to say the things that need to be said without serious personal consequences. Owen Barfield, a London solicitor, stood within the outsider tradition, which oddly enough may have helped people to take him seriously—for sometimes the impulse for radical change has to come from without. For myself, though I respect the role of academia, I am also certain that what I now do and say is both right and necessary—though doubtless others more knowledgeable than I could have handled it much better.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    8:11pm
    Yawn!
    Lookfar
    22nd May 2019
    8:32pm
    Yes Maureen, I can easily imagine you worshipping Trump,- Perhaps you could go over there to experience the full idiocy, - do you really think we should follow that immoral trickster?
    Curious
    22nd May 2019
    8:54pm
    The argument on the tax base is a false contention of what franking credit is all about. A company is paying tax on the dividends on behalf of its shareholders without knowing their personal tax assessment for the tax year. If the personal tax assessment requires to pay income tax, the person concerned can use the franking credit to reduce the income tax, providing the income is more than $18,500.00. If a person income is less than $18,500.00, no tax is payable. In terms of superannuation, the concession tax therewith is different from the normal salary income tax and the tax rates need to be considered.

    The tax base is ranging from a myriad of taxes, personal income tax, corporate tax, GST, etc. To review the tax base, we need a broad tax reform for the whole economy. Just isolate a section of the tax base is unfair and dangerous, creating different classes of citizens. Whoever suggests this franking credit review is myopia to the issues of tax reform in a globalized economy.
    Anonymous
    22nd May 2019
    9:01pm
    Absolutely
    Hear hear
    GD
    23rd May 2019
    10:41am
    Well said, wish people would read what the truth. https://www.facebook.com/SkyNewsAustralia/videos/296324011256624/
    Rae
    23rd May 2019
    7:32am
    Isn't the Australian population relatively young?

    Just pay a universal aged pension, tax extra income appropriately and stop the savings distortions.

    There will be no need for tax concessions for saving into superannuation or negative gearing of PAYG income or imputation credits for non taxpayers at that point.

    It's why most of the civilised world pays a universal pension. It's equitable, doesn't encourage over investment in the family home or other unproductive hoarding of wealth and encourages saving as there is no penalty for being a saver.

    The bonus would be a streamlined Centrelink with simplified entitlement, no need to keep notifying changes to income etc, ability to work part time in retirement without penalty and treating everyone the same finally would be a very good move.

    The ATO could also benefit from increased funding as tax returns would be lodged. Far better once a year that notifying every fortnight or whenever you spend $2000.

    Our current retirement income system is a distorted shambles and needs fixing up.
    Anonymous
    23rd May 2019
    7:39am
    Yep
    Blame labor for ditching universal pension and putting us $billions in debt

    Perhaps one lay the LNP can bring back universal pension
    KSS
    23rd May 2019
    7:56am
    Not heard of the ageing population then Rae?
    Karl Marx
    23rd May 2019
    10:34am
    Very positive Rae my thoughts exactly.
    No point in blamining anyone as most LNP supporters do, oh it' The ALP's fault from 30 years ago as if the LNP are without any fault at all, everything is the ALP's doing rofl.
    Doesn't matter who past the legislation or how long ago it was, times change & governments need to change accordingly no matter who is in government.
    This LNP government should start upholding the old Aussie saying, a fair go for everyone.
    And remember this goverment has already ha 6 years to give Australia a fair go & failed miserably. Over 26% of over 65's live below the poverty line, one of the highest countries in the OECD
    GeorgeM
    23rd May 2019
    9:44pm
    Completely right, Rae. Universal Age Pension is the only possible and sane option left, after BOTH Liberals and Labor have destroyed the Age Pension system completely, punishing savers (aspirational people as they call them), and created a massive bureaucracy in Centrelink to administer, rather harass, their customers i.e. Age Pensioners.

    Yes, SFR, BOTH Liberals and Labor have taken turns to hit the Retirement incomes of retirees e.g. the Libs Asset Test changes of 2017 (reduced incomes of some part-pemnsioners by up to $14,000 p.a., without Grandfathering, based on a broken promise and a Budget Emergency lie), and previously Labor dishonestly changed Pension Age to 67 without revealing their plans to do that before getting elected in 2007.

    Yes, Liberals, if they have any contrition for their attacks on Age Pensioners since 2017, given their intention to give massive tax cuts to the rich in particular, need to seriously reconsider their priorities to Age Pensioners and implement Universal Age Pension. Morrison did talk about letting Retirees enjoy their retirement and not be hit by rule changes (attacking Labor) - rather hypocritical, wasn't it, when he did far worse to 420,000 part-pensioners (ongoing effect since 2017)?

    This time, as in 2016, voters (Retirees and pre-retirees in particular) once again voted stupidly and let the Liberals win again (although good to turf out the crazy, extremist Labor this time), however their next election can again be at risk if Retirees use their strength (being 20% of the electorate) and use their preferences sensibly.
    Rae
    24th May 2019
    9:58am
    KSS we have over 300 000 live births each year. And 270 000 odd immigrants and a couple of million visa holders. Add it together and no we haven't an excess of aged to other demographics at this point.

    Average age is actually falling as the birth rate ramps up.
    Trueblueozzie
    24th May 2019
    11:38am
    Rae,
    Australia's fastest growing population rate comes from the ""aged Baby Boomers"". This is why in recent years there's been real concern about the "Aged Pension" and it's affordability, the pressure these numbers places on our "Health System" with Dementia becoming the greatest illness among this group. Then there's also the "pressure to have more "Nursing Home's" and too have enough "Staff Experienced to run these Homes".

    Another concern for the Government's now and into the future is the Number of Tax Payer's ( full time workers 38hrs week ) that are on the Decline and will be into the future, with an ever shrinking Budget how will they address the ongoing Budget Blowouts in the Aged Population ???? Abbotts Government allowed the "Fudging of the Unemployment Rate" buy classing those who "Work as little as 2hrs a week" as employed. So when the Government says ""jobs have increased and unemployment is down"" I don't believe a word of what their saying, because it's "not full-time jods 38hrs a week their bragging about".

    Labour was smart by trying to start and address this issue now, instead of waiting for down the track went it will have a bigger impact on us all. Who knows, will we end up having our aged pensions cut in half ??? Like the young unemployed have had to live under since Abbotts Government.
    Farside
    24th May 2019
    11:58am
    Rae, we do have an ageing population.

    "In 2017, there were 3.8 million Australians aged 65 and over (comprising 15% of the total population) —increasing from 319,000 (5%) in 1927 and 1.3 million (9%) in 1977.

    The number and proportion of older Australians is expected to continue to grow. By 2057, it is projected there will be 8.8 million older people in Australia (22% of the population); by 2097, 12.8 million people (25%) will be aged 65 and over"

    https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/older-people/older-australia-at-a-glance/contents/demographics-of-older-australians/australia-s-changing-age-gender-profile
    Rae
    27th May 2019
    4:54pm
    The stats don't make a lot of sense when real numbers are used.

    3.8 million over 65

    6 million under 19

    an average age of 37.4 and falling.

    The over 65s dropping off the perch and over 311000 live births just last year.
    That's a million every 3 years at least.

    I'd suggest building schools should be a priority.

    23rd May 2019
    9:14am
    The only way Bowen could have sold their franking credits policy to the public is if he simultaneously introduced universal pension
    Just saying
    Adrianus
    23rd May 2019
    10:04am
    Maureen, That would require Labor to bury their ideological raison d' etre. No can do.
    Labor is committed to vindictive politics. They take from those who don't vote for them and give to those who do. Labor is too full of hate to see a realistic future let alone lead us to one.
    The problem they encounter over time is a depletion of their support base because of their strategy of making enemies. The Unions once had over 80% workplace membership, which is now around 14%.
    I don't really like giving advice to those who are too stupid to appreciate it, but if I were to give advice to Labor and their friends with benefits (Greens). Treat your enemies as if they are future friends, because one day they may be?
    Anonymous
    23rd May 2019
    10:09am
    You are right Adrianus
    Apparently the reason labor stuck to their guns with the franking credit policy is their research told them those who oppose it wouldn’t have voted labor anyway and in fact would strengthen their base . Hence the vile, spiteful and divisive mantra about “the top end of town” which Bowen, Shorten Plibersek , Albo and Wong relished using at every opportunity
    Paddington
    25th May 2019
    8:10pm
    OGR/Maureen/Anonymous/etc., you have come out finally. No more beating around the bush. You are a straight up liberal after all. No longer crying poor? “Vile, spiteful, divisive” ... you must be referring to your LNP because that is how many of us saw the Murdoch/Palmer/LNP lies and distortions. “Top end of town” refers to the wealthy people at the top like the banks and big corporations and some individuals so unless you are in that group don’t take offence.
    My brother actually worked at the pre polls in Qld and said Murdoch and Palmer had been very active up there. Murdoch reporting had been very biased and Palmer was behind much fear mongering which he readily admits to. We even got some here in our letter box which was not normal or fair. One attacked the independent and although she was not my preference I was appalled at the attack on her signed by LNP and backed by Palmer.
    This has been the dirtiest election I have ever seen.
    Paddington
    23rd May 2019
    5:47pm
    I love a timid country
    A land of scare campaigns
    Where mindless bogan slogans
    Just overtake our brains
    The stunted, short horizons
    Of those who will not see
    Who, presented with alternatives
    Think only: me, me, me.
    (Courtesy of Mike Funnell)
    Adrianus
    24th May 2019
    7:46am
    Of course Scott Morrison's Aunt, Dame Mary Gilmore was a poet and a socialist, the first woman member of Bill Shorten's Union(AWU). But I doubt she would have written a poem which despises the country and its people. What has happened to the left? They were once reasonable and logical? These days its my way or nothing. This is so sad for our country, because we need to look after each other and build together, while we relish disagreements on the best way to do that.
    Rae
    24th May 2019
    10:04am
    Labor policy seems to end in tears for whole groups of people. Not sure why the do things like end universal pensions, introduce franking credits, distort the tax base, set up un Fatr Work Commissions or any of the other divisive policies. And I'm still in a union and voted Labor.

    Even I can see them following the conservatives down the fascist road to poverty for the people and favours for cronies.
    Lookfar
    24th May 2019
    7:55am
    Everyday the Vampires and Vultures of our society work on the minds of the working class person.
    This election was a surprise for us all.
    A wake up call if there ever was one.
    Clearly we are not doing enough, not hitting the right chord, NOT GETTING THROUGH
    to convince the many common folk to choose hope over fear,
    to choose compassion over prejudice, understanding over persecution.
    That requires us to work on this in all the ways possible everyday.
    Because these monsters of greed and indifference, fear mongering warmongering controlling freaks work on us all everyday.
    Voting is not what makes change.
    Working on change makes change and the vote will reflect that.
    Dont lose hope, dont give up, dont stop instead just let's get better fiercer more determined.
    Because the other choice is unforgiveable
    Lookfar
    24th May 2019
    7:55am
    Everyday the Vampires and Vultures of our society work on the minds of the working class person.
    This election was a surprise for us all.
    A wake up call if there ever was one.
    Clearly we are not doing enough, not hitting the right chord, NOT GETTING THROUGH
    to convince the many common folk to choose hope over fear,
    to choose compassion over prejudice, understanding over persecution.
    That requires us to work on this in all the ways possible everyday.
    Because these monsters of greed and indifference, fear mongering warmongering controlling freaks work on us all everyday.
    Voting is not what makes change.
    Working on change makes change and the vote will reflect that.
    Dont lose hope, dont give up, dont stop instead just let's get better fiercer more determined.
    Because the other choice is unforgiveable
    Anonymous
    24th May 2019
    8:00am
    The LNP are already doing that Lookfar
    You can sleep easy
    We won’t let the monster back in kiddo . You’re safe
    Karl Marx
    24th May 2019
    12:55pm
    Anonymous, the LNP track record over the last 6 years speaks for itself. Lies, deceit, corruption, making the poor poorer & the rich richer, stripping more of our rights & freedoms, plunging more & more over 65's & those on newstart further into poverty, taking away or reducing penalty rates so workers earn less.
    I can't see the next 3 years being any better. Can we sleep easy, I don't think so.
    Karl Marx
    24th May 2019
    1:01pm
    Sorry Anonymous I meant Maureen lol
    Lookfar
    24th May 2019
    8:38am
    Maureen, You know the LNP is OWNED lock stock and barrel by the Vultures and Vampires, you must be a troll to not admit it.
    What wa needed was a party more open to doing something about the Climate Change that is driving Global Warming, Instead the old people who voted Liberal, have sentenced their grandchildren to suffering or death, and my grandchildren also, and what is more irresponsible, won't be around to witness the dire result of their foolish selfish voting, unless there is an afterlife, where they will have to suffer double.
    Perhaps we had to wait until Albanese became Labour Leader, as Shorten was only half a step away from being a climate denier himself, probably Albanese would have won this one though, certainly would not have allowed Bowen to do the Franking credit hard line.
    Maybe the fear crazed Liberal voters can spend their last days helping the rest of us fight the idiocy of Morrison and the coal lobby at least.
    Hawkeye
    24th May 2019
    12:36pm
    FRANKLY, MY DEAR, I DON"T GIVE A DAMN.
    Lookfar
    24th May 2019
    1:40pm
    Hawkeye, I assume you are replying to Maureen the Troll's (now degraded to anonymous,) vacuous articles, as Maureen is normally a female name, but I fail to fathom why you would expend the energy to post online, register, set up, etc. - if you don't give a damn, you would not post, yet you did.
    Perhaps there is a part of you that Does give a damn, - no shame in that, that is why we are all here, and if so I hope to represent the occasional list member, or only myself, by saying, "Welcome to the list YLC". - I would like to suggest you look at my article, "machines that never fail" above as a help to transform your conscious self to deeper understanding.
    Cheers.
    Hawkeye
    25th May 2019
    4:22am
    Lookfar, you have the uncanny ability to complicate the simplest of things to such an extent that you no longer make any sense (which is why I generally don't bother reading your contributions).

    It was simply a line from some old long-forgotten movie which started with "frank" just as does "franking credits". Ha ha ha.

    I read your sleeping pill about Machines That Never Fail, and the fact that you consider it worthy of inclusion here speaks volumes about your mental condition. (Or was it simply an attempt at the record for the longest LYC post ever.)

    The mind boggles at what you would have read into my post if I had simply said "FRANKFURT" or similar.
    Paddington
    28th May 2019
    12:44am
    It is franking ridiculous actually!
    koshka
    24th May 2019
    3:57pm
    Franking credits: Two dogs are arguing about a “bone” grabbed by one of the dogs which is the big, strong, smart and powerful one. The other dog wishing to share the bone is: little, weak, frail and is dying of hunger. The powerful and dominant dog does not want to share the bone so bury the bone…The other dog dies of starvation. The smart dog is joyful of course, hasn’t got a conscience as some humans do…
    Old Fella
    25th May 2019
    1:08pm
    Did think Franking Credits were done and dusted at the close of the recent 2019 elections. Disappointed in the suggestion there is more considerations to come. Perhaps the Government might choose to retain franking credit benefits to Australian shareholders and offset this choice by not providing Corporate Tax Cuts. At least Franking credits are spent by shareholders in Australia unlike real profits sent abroad as a Tax avoidance.
    Old Fella
    25th May 2019
    1:08pm
    Did think Franking Credits were done and dusted at the close of the recent 2019 elections. Disappointed in the suggestion there is more considerations to come. Perhaps the Government might choose to retain franking credit benefits to Australian shareholders and offset this choice by not providing Corporate Tax Cuts. At least Franking credits are spent by shareholders in Australia unlike real profits sent abroad as a Tax avoidance.
    Paddington
    26th May 2019
    11:30am
    Just remove the term, ‘franking,’ and let them disappear. They are not sustainable as they will keep going up by billions. Give people notice to adjust their affairs and it should be across the board as many on here seem to defend the notion if that is applied to all then it is fair.
    Another argument says cap them at $5000. This could cause trouble too though. Let them disappear from people’s future memories.
    Something will be done, that’s for sure!

    26th May 2019
    11:03am
    I believe the tax cuts "will" occur...they will be delayed as stated by the PM...something out of his control

    "Scott Morrison wants his tax cut plan to become law as soon as possible, so that it applies for tax returns lodged this financial year.

    But his efforts to do so may be blocked by a bureaucratic timeline beyond his control.

    The Prime Minister needs to wait for the election writs to be returned before Federal Parliament is recalled, which may not be until late June.

    "We obviously have to wait for the writs to be returned and there is a formal process for that,"

    26th May 2019
    11:03am
    I believe the tax cuts "will" occur...they will be delayed as stated by the PM...something out of his control

    "Scott Morrison wants his tax cut plan to become law as soon as possible, so that it applies for tax returns lodged this financial year.

    But his efforts to do so may be blocked by a bureaucratic timeline beyond his control.

    The Prime Minister needs to wait for the election writs to be returned before Federal Parliament is recalled, which may not be until late June.

    "We obviously have to wait for the writs to be returned and there is a formal process for that,"
    Paddington
    26th May 2019
    7:19pm
    Which they knew about and delayed the election to make more inroads into labor’s vote.
    So all through the campaign they knew this!
    Anonymous
    27th May 2019
    10:23am
    we will see!
    Gonfishing
    26th May 2019
    6:54pm
    https://www.afr.com/news/politics/greens-back-2-4b-pension-cuts-force-review-20150616-ghphf3
    We seem to have short memories. Scott Morrison teamed up with the Greens to cut aged pension in 2015. In light of the above article, I wonder what is in store for aged pensioners this time round.
    Paddington
    26th May 2019
    7:16pm
    And they do go after the poorest for sure.
    LNP were already looking st the franking credits but whether they will be game to touch them is another thing.
    Thank goodness we moved from Qld 15 years ago.
    Even the labor premier there is running scared and pushing through Adani.
    Chooky
    26th May 2019
    8:30pm
    Franking credits has been on the lib agenda for some time as is broadening the GST base to foods not correctly subject to GST. Franking credits are unsustainable and the Libs have stated this since last week!
    Further, a week out from the election Frydenberg has announced a full review of retirement income. Seniors you have been sucked in again.
    Anonymous
    27th May 2019
    10:22am
    no good going gung ho on this...saw the Minister on tv this am on channel 7 and that is definitely not the impression he conveyed.
    Paddington
    28th May 2019
    12:42am
    Of course Libs were looking at it. Labor just beat them to it.
    It is not sustainable.
    Adrianus
    27th May 2019
    8:41am
    All glue is not the same.
    When the leadership group in the Labor Party and the Unions finalised their book on Franking Credit Policy, when they glued the spine, little did they know that the glue being used was the same high quality glue used by the LNP when they wrote the Work Choices book. This stuff sticks to everything and lasts for decades.
    Adrianus
    27th May 2019
    8:41am
    All glue is not the same.
    When the leadership group in the Labor Party and the Unions finalised their book on Franking Credit Policy, when they glued the spine, little did they know that the glue being used was the same high quality glue used by the LNP when they wrote the Work Choices book. This stuff sticks to everything and lasts for decades.
    Paddington
    27th May 2019
    11:32am
    Apparently, Grandma won’t be able to buy birthday and Xmas presents for the grandkids (as was told to voters!)
    How on earth it got blown up into such huge thing is beyond me. People had not even heard of franking credits til this. Most pensioners and poor people have no shares.
    Some live from pension to pension.
    Yet the emergency situation with the environment was ignored. Greens were attacked for trying to make this a top priority. Children care and respect the science as it will be their world.
    Europe is going green based on recent elections.
    If the bees and other insects disappear so do we! But let’s make franking credits the top issue?!
    Adrianus
    27th May 2019
    8:25pm
    Paddo, you just don't get it. It goes to Labor's willingness to hypocritically claim to be fair while at the same time introducing one of the most unfair policies ever seen. The policy said more about Labor and their supporters than any words they could use to describe themselves. Pure evil. It will take a generation for Labor and their supporters to realise their mistake and this is digging their hole deeper.
    Paddington
    28th May 2019
    12:40am
    How is it pure evil? It was never meant to be permanent. It has ballooned out into billions.
    Needs to just go! Give people time to adjust their money but it is a massive amount.
    You are not taking their shares or dividends just the franking credits.
    It is on its way to 8 billion, how can we afford that?
    It is needed for hospitals and schools.
    Makes no sense!
    Adrianus
    28th May 2019
    8:29am
    As I posted, this stupidity of Labor will stick with them regardless of leadership changes.
    Adrianus
    28th May 2019
    8:29am
    As I posted, this stupidity of Labor will stick with them regardless of leadership changes.
    Bulla
    27th May 2019
    12:57pm
    Just a thought,if franking credit had been disallowed as contemplated by Labour,would it have been applicable to dividend received by shareholders from private companies as well?
    mike
    27th May 2019
    7:07pm
    Well when Kristina keneally was campaigning on the Central West, she stated that Shorten's Retiree tax Theft would only affect the wealthy and also why should retirees who pay Zero tax get a refund. Well that was a double lie, because the wealthy would not be affected but the low income retirees would be destroyed. Also if low income retirees come below the tax threshold, how can Labor describe them as wealthy, and in any case Tax has been paid on their behalf by the company on behalf of the shareholders.It is straight out theft, Labor Candidate Dr Jess Jennings also supported the Labor tax Theft, but when the member for Calare, Mr Gee was asked to support the retirees, he WAS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. So we wondered then whether the Liberal party was also considering this double taxation. In any case, being silent on this helped them win the election, so do not be surprised if the Liberal party does a backflip.
    Adrianus
    27th May 2019
    8:29pm
    mike, without franking credits the system is unfair.
    Adrianus
    27th May 2019
    8:29pm
    mike, without franking credits the system is unfair.
    MacI
    28th May 2019
    6:49am
    Obviously doing away with franking credit refunds for non-tax paying individuals is unpopular with those affected however the cost to the budget is ever increasing and needs to be reigned in. It is unfair to younger generations to carry the ever increasing burden as more and more baby boomers enter into retirement. It is a largess we cannot afford.

    The question is how to do it. Labor's policy was ill thought through. Personally, I think that retirees who do not qualify for the Age Pension by virtue of the assets they hold are in a position to absorb the loss of refunds - many simply don't want to draw down on their assets to fund their retirement. However, given that it is political poison perhaps a cap on the size of refunds may make it more palatable for current retirees and for those within say 5 years of retirement and then phased out completely for those with more than 5 years to retirement. This would allow time for those coming up towards retirement to adjust their expectations and plans for retirement.
    Adrianus
    28th May 2019
    8:26am
    You could say the same thing about welfare and the OAP.
    "The cost to the budget is ever increasing and needs to be reigned in."
    You could say the same thing about PAYG tax refunds or any tax which has been overpaid.
    "It is a largess we cannot afford."
    I'm not Ok with isolating a minority sector and disadvantaging them because they have low incomes. Only a Labor party would think of such a thing.
    Lookfar
    29th May 2019
    2:47pm
    Adrianus, tax which is overpaid or underpaid, or refunds claimed there-upon, has nothing to do with the Australian Support for pensioners, as they have already paid their money to deserve that Refund. - It is arguable as to whether folk who do not pay tax should be gifted by the Tax department as they have not paid the tax department, nor probably has the company that sold their victims the shares/whatever.
    Always you need to look at the whole situation, part of which is that the company would not be issuing Franking credits if it wasn't making money on so doing.
    Fairness requires looking at the total situation, not cherry picking just one aspect.
    Wstaton
    31st May 2019
    12:44pm
    This is a typical case of unintended consequences by a political party. Corporate tax was supposed to be a tax on the profits of a company. That how the rest of the world sees it. The problem then was exaggerated because off the super schemes coming into being.

    If it wasn't for the super them no-one would have cared a toss about it.

    Unfortunately it has turned out that no-one the company or the shareholders end up paying any tax. So why even bother having a corporate tax.

    I do not know if this is true but someone correct me if I am wrong. A private company operating as a sole proprietorship pays corporate tax albeit at a reduced rate. I assume the owner does not issue themselves franking credits. I also guess that the profits made from the business will then be assessed as income and taxed at the appropriate rate.

    If this is not true and the corporate tax paid can be entered as an expense why the heck do we have corporate tax at all.

    It makes one wonder.

    One other point. Why have corporate taxes. What one seems to forget is although a business has many expenses which they can claim They also get complete use of all the other facilities that other taxpayers use that they have paid taxes on order to have. They police, hospitals etc. So for example someone harasses their employees the police are called if no corp[orate taxes paid they get that for free while the rest of us pay for it. There are probably plenty of other examples of free use of the facilities we the ordinary.
    taxpayer pays for.