Tony out, Malcolm in

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In a dramatic day in Australian politics yesterday, Malcom Turnbull challenged incumbent Prime Minister Tony Abbott. And the winner was Malcolm.

But the numbers were super tight and the victory for Malcolm Turnbull is far from clear cut. A vote taken in the party room at 9.15 resulted in 54 votes for Malcolm Turnbull and 44 for Tony Abbott.

Events unfolded quickly. With the expectation of a significant swing against the government in Saturday’s upcoming Canning by-election, restive liberals had waited long enough. At 4 pm Malcom Turnbull addressed the media, stating that the Abbott Government had not been successful “in providing the economic leadership our nation needs. … We need a different style of leadership. … It is clear the people have made up their minds about Mr Abbott’s leadership”. He then confirmed that he had resigned as Minister for Communications and would be asking the Prime Minister for a leadership ballot.

Two hours later, Mr Abbott responded.

“We are not the Labor Party”, he said. “This country needs strong and stable government … at all costs avoiding the revolving door of the Labor leadership. You can trust me to deliver a stronger economy and a safer community… I will be a candidate and I expect to win. The destabilisation just has to stop.”

Over the following three hours many Cabinet ministers pledged their support for Mr Abbott, in particular Mr Hockey who said, “The disloyalty of some is outrageous. We have an economic plan that is working.”

The ballot was called for 9.15pm and just half an hour before, ABC TV reported the projected numbers to be separated by just two votes. But as we have since seen, the numbers were slightly better for now Prime Minister Turnbull, and decisive for Julie Bishop as Deputy Leader, at 70 votes compared to Kevin Andrews at 30 votes.

Opinion: The Abbott Legacy

What goes around usually does come around and yesterday it did for former Prime Minister Tony Abbott. It’s called karma.

A self-proclaimed ‘fighter’, his pugilistic political style – frequently described as ‘Dr. No’ – won him the prime ministership of Australia in September 2013. Yet a few days after his government’s second anniversary, the Prime Minister faced a leadership challenge from the man he deposed as party leader in 2007.

The trigger was increasingly dire predictions of a 10 per cent+ swing in the Canning by-election, which will take place on Saturday 19 September. But this leadership challenge has been coming since the ‘non-spill’ in February, when Tony Abbott faced off an empty chair, and won. He promised then that he would listen, that good government would start on that day, but his ‘fighter’ personality was hard to shrug off. And six months later, relentlessly consistent polling showing the Liberal Party on track to lose the next Federal Election on a two-party preferred basis became too hard to ignore. In particular, the perception that the conservative government was not able to manage our economy, with most indicators (unemployment, consumer confidence, business investment) confirming a lack of faith that economic growth was highly unlikely in the short term.

As commentators noted when ex-PM Abbott left the party room, it’s a long walk. No one enjoys anyone’s humiliation or distress. Politicians are human beings who hurt as much as the rest of us. But it would be dishonest to pretend that Mr Abbott’s prime ministership has been either successful or good for this country. His so-called ‘Captain’s picks’ have been foolish at worst, damaging at best. His lack of understanding of those in need – people on welfare, the unemployed or refugees – was a severe hindrance to social equity. And his strong views on climate change, alternative energy and same-sex marriage were out of step with most Australia. Additionally, his inability as Minister for Women to properly support the needs and rights of Australia women has basically sidelined half of the population.

It must be very difficult to work in Canberra and still keep your finger on the pulse of the priorities of ordinary Australians. But that is what prime ministers need to do. Our new Prime Minister is an extremely wealthy and successful man. Tellingly, he did not call for strong leadership, he said we need strong economic leadership. And while highlighting the need for us to be agile, innovative and creative, he did not once mention a vision for a fair and equitable country. He will need to work doubly hard to understand what really goes on in mainstream Australian life. 

What do you think? Are you happy with the result? Will the vote for Malcolm Turnbull mean we can now expect a more stable government?

And what are the implications for Bill Shorten and the Labor Opposition?

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Written by Kaye Fallick

358 Comments

Total Comments: 358
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    Wait and see !! But from what I see around the Net some Folks are up for a Ta Ta Tony Party tonight ! 🙂 🙂

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      Probably not worth engaging with some of the meat heads below. Always nice to have a debate based on logic and facts. Mostly crap and anti labor venom coming from the normal poster(s).
      Lets hope that Turnbull can kill of some of the anti-Australian policies from Abbott and his cronies which upset so many of us with their unfairness.
      I’ll come to the bye bye Tony party particolor. I need a drink at the moment!

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    The left mantra was, ‘One Term Tony’ but bet they didn’t think that he would be replaced before the next election. Never know, Turnbull may turn out to be the best Labor leader they never had?

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    Turnbull will try, against significant opposition from the strong ultra-conservative “Christian” element, to turn the Libs back to their origins which was a Liberal Party with liberal values.
    If he succeeds we will all benefit but he could be in for a torrid time. A political commentator said last night the right wing of the Libs in NSW are very strong haters.
    Abbott was a disaster and only welded only “blind” LNP supporters could really be happy with him. The bulk of Australians had really had enough.
    The ALP will now have to extract their digits if they have any hope of success.

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      Good comment Tom Tank!

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      I was surprised at a couple of comments from Turnbull recently as I did not know that he also has a hate of Labor. It would be good to try and get some common ground so that bipartisan support happens (where it should) for the good of the nation. The last thing we need is more political point scoring for the sake of over-inflated egos.

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    Turnbull promises to keep the LNP going in Exactly the same direction. No gay marriage, no climate change, no refugees, no ABC, no SBS, no medicare, no public schools, no public hospitals, no social security, and absolutely No taxes on the rich.

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      No Knighting anyone ! 🙂

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      I dont care about Dames and Knights, As Long As we dont have to give them a penny,y let them have their gongs.

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      So I can keep my gong then.

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      was not a fan of abbott but he did keep the boats out. now i feel we are in for a hell of a time we will go the same way as Europe. he will have open boarders, the crime rate will increase as there will be no stopping these cultures they will have the support of the govt and funded by the govt the rich will get richer and the poor will starve.

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      maris, the word is borders not boarders.

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      marls
      Yes, Abbott did at a multi million dollar cost, employed a security corp that abused women and children and even raped them…. not bad aye marls.

      Oh! not to forget that the amount of Refugees over 15 years would not even fill the MCG AND is still less than the people who come in to Australia EVERY Y E A R by plane with visas (457 as well) and STAY illegally.
      Yes marls, more illegals come by plane in ONE (1) year than ALL the refugees for 15 years.

      YOU wouldn’t be a pom would you, they seem to come to Australia, as immigrants and bring their PHOBIA’s of other cultures with them?!? Once THEY get into Australia themselves, they are the most racial and haters of any other cultures, other than their own of course. They seem to think this is THEIR country and that THEY alone have the right to come here….. sick dudes aye, marls.

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      Google the number of rapes in places like Sweden by the immigrants that Sweden opened their doors to and get that great big chip off your shoulder. You should remember the troubles at those beaches south of Sydney that the white girls in Bikinis were being insulted on before the Ozzy guys took the law into their own hands.

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      longdistancerunner

      Oh! dear dear short distance stayer…. of which chip do you speak, wood or potato? They are very different, you know.

      So are countries interpretation of rape! Did you know that IF you don’t use a condom in Sweden, it is a form of RAPE! Don’t you think the number of so called rapes would have increased dramatically on that aspect alone… most immigrants may not have known this law. Do you know how many were for not using a condom and how many were for penetration without consent???

      Get a grip, dear thing and expand your RACIST horizon…. IF you want a country whereby women are treated like scum, then maybe you should take a closer look at Saudi Arabia, old thing.

      In regard to the 2005 Cronulla RACIAL riots. I didn’t know anyone was raped, only that some women were verbally harassed by people of a different culture….. yes, I can see that would be a great reason to form a huge GANG of WHITE RACIST people and go in there and beat up and terrorise Muslim FAMILIES with women and children.

      Besides, if you want to blame someone else for that DISGUSTING display of racism, then you could look at little Johnny Howard. He was the first to spew racist LIES for political purposes…. remember “babies overboard”… all bulldust and Howard was well aware of that!

      That was a very short sprint, doesn’t seem as if you can quite make the distance from your racist tendencies to looking at all the facts.

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      AND They were Being Insulted By those Gangs of Perverts LONG BEFORE They were Put Straight !! There !! 🙁

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      AND By The Way ! Pervert is not a RACE !! Before You get off Your Horsy ! 🙂

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    Will Turnbull reverse the d.changes to thevpart pensions. Retirees have worked hard and saved for their retirement under current gov guidelines only to have their retirement plans smashed by Hockey. A recent survey estimated approx 550000 former liberal retiree and soon to be retired voters will never vote Liberal again. Also will Turnbull get rid of Hockey and B Bishop?

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      Well I think the Flying Nun has gone and the Treasurer that cant Treasure will be Replaced ! 😕

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      we wont see reversals, he has had to sleep with the devil to get the top seat back, he will toe the party line.
      The LNP are convinced that they are better than regular Australians, they are convinced that they are the brightest and the best, that they know better than us what incentives we need to push us back into jobs …they Ignore the fact that the jobs dont exist anymore.
      Turnbull will toe the party line 100%.

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      If retirees worked so hard why do they even need the pension? Or was it they didn’t work smart enough? The pension should only be given to those who need it not those who are entitled to it. If a couple has $1.1M they shouldn’t be getting the pension at the other taxpayers expense. The sooner the house in included the better off we will all be.

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      bonny I don’t see you complaining about abbotts pension you only complain about the people who have slaved and worked all their life

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      That was ‘bong’ Bonny – not gong – and no – you won’t have to return it.

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      I’m not complaining about people who you say slaved and worked all their lives but I am wondering why they are now on the pension?

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      No it’s definitely a gong what would I need a bong for anyway?

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      Bonny they are on the part pension because that is the decision they made at retirement.

      Those without superannuation didn’t need to make the decision at all.

      I would imagine future retirees will make entirely different decisions.

      The legislative changes will have far reaching impact and consequences that Hockey and Morrison can’t see.

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      Bonny , Your comments and figures you are quoting are the usual wealthy people comments of your party , who neither understood nor cared about the less fortunate in our country . Sure , just go on with your 1,1 Million , when the cut off rate is in fact 823 000 and includes assets that are necessities of daily life . Thanks to your wonderful Liberal philosophy and mismanagement , the cash rate is around 2 % and just do your figures on that and find out that this person is living in poverty . It does in fact send the wrong message to the young by making a mockery of saving and working hard . You are also forgetting that most of these elderly around the cut off figure made these savings in order to live free of welfare in their old age , and years ago that was the case until our Politicians let us down but naturally made sure they and the wealthy are fine in typical LNP style .

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      What I just don’t understand is how people who have worked much longer than I ever did got to be on a pension. The obvious answer must be they just didn’t provide for themselves for retirement even thought the writing has been on the walls for about 40 years now. I’m actually surprised that people can still make a choice about going on a part pension. The pension system is way too generous even with the changes to the assets test in 2017. You should have to use up you own resources before collecting the pension and not be putting your hand out to the taxpayers and then handing a windfall over to your heirs to spend tax free after your death.

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      Even with $823,000 you could provide for yourself for many years in retirement and when that runs out you get the pension. You can spend your capital as well as the income it generates. It’s a no brainer.

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      If you are only getting 2% on your money then you need to do some serious research as it’s not that difficult to get over 3% by just having your money invested in accounts with the major banks.

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      If you did the figure work right you would not be writing your comments and also do not miss out on addressing the problems this shift in goal posts causes for a couple of elderly people . I would like you to provide me with a major Bank that makes fortnightly payouts on a 3 % return . You also conveniently forget that I mentioned the figure of 823 000 includes assets essential for daily living that bring absolutely no return . You just can not get it that apart from the ultra rich , like you , not many made it to the 2 Million mark , which is what a couple needs in these days unless you are a Politician . Just continue with your opinion and you will see how the young people will not save and work hard and your Liberal Philosophy will really fall apart when everyone lines up for the full Pension .

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      Utter rubbish and obviously a welfare mindset. That is what is wrong with Australia today too many people think that they are owed a living for doing absolutely nothing. I personally can’t see the good times continuing for that much longer as put simply there will not be enough welfare money available for the demand so something has to give.

      I know of one of the big 4 banks that gives a return of over 3% on a couple of their accounts as I was working out which one to sue for a person a couple of days ago.

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      Bonny, you are obviously both very arrogant and very ignorant. Why do people who worked hard all their lives need a pension? Because investment returns have crashed to next to nothing. Maybe because they had to deal with expensive health issues or family crisis that drained their savings late in live. Maybe because the GFC or fraudulent conduct by superannuation fund managers reduced their savings nest egg. Maybe because economic change rendered land and property assets in some areas or certain resource assets worthless – or worth much less than they should be worth.

      It’s not a ”welfare mentality” that drives those who genuinely NEED a small pension and the accompanying benefits to survive maybe 30 years of inflation in retirement without income to complain that they have been stripped of what they were promised. It’s not a ”welfare mentality” that leads people to complain that after years of hard work and extreme sacrifice they now have less to live on than people who didn’t work as hard and/or didn’t save. It’s not a ”welfare mentality” that leads people to object to the Government rewarding people for spending heavily and punishing them for saving. (Asset-tested retirees in many circumstances can actually gain $174000 over 10 years if they spend $100,000 on a world cruise. Nowhere can most get that return by investing!)

      The aged pension is NOT welfare. It’s an entitlement that was bought and paid for by taxpayers, and it’s not the fault of today’s retirees that the government stole the money and misappropriated it. Many decades ago, an eminent Australian politician declared that the aged pension was an entitlement and should NEVER gain be regarded as ”welfare”. Sadly, cheats, liars and fraudsters are denying retired Australians their rights. But worse than that, politicians and the privileged are fostering a culture of disrespect, contempt, anger and jealousy toward retirees, assigning vile labels such as ”leaners” and making false accusations and false claims against them. It’s sick and disgusting.

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      Bonny, a few facts you conveniently ignore:
      1. Many people who are assessed by Centrelink as having ”assets” actually are stuck with worthless property or items that do not return and are unsaleable, often due to economic change, political decisions, or corruption in local or state government. These people may be living in poverty, ”deemed” to have sufficient assets to be self-supporting but in fact having very little.
      2. Many older people saved for a genuine and valid purpose or goal – to provide for some anticipated expense that will arise in their later years. How is it fair to deny them the right to preserve their capital to meet that expense while those who gambled, drank, traveled widely, dined in restaurants, dressed expensively, etc. receive pensions? That’s a denial of the right to make spending and lifestyle choices. It means people are punished for being responsible and putting a nest egg aside for a valid future need.
      3. Many retirees received compensation payments after an accident etc. to COMPENSATE them for being unable to continue to earn and/or to help them meet special needs resulting from their disability. It is grossly unfair to then say they should use that money to live on instead of receiving a pension. That denies them the fair benefit of the compensation payment and means the benefit of the compensation goes to the taxpayer, not to the injured party.

      You are quite wrong to suggest that it’s reasonable for people to have to spend their assets rather than getting a pension. Fair enough to expect folk to live on investment returns if they have adequate returns to fund a comfortable lifestyle, but it is NOT fair to deny people the right to enjoy their savings in their own time and in their own way – or even to pass them on to offspring when they die – while subsidizing the lifestyles of those who are less responsible. If someone put aside savings to fund a world trip when they are 70, or to pay for their grandchild to fly overseas for specialist medical care, or to help their children meet the cost of their grandchildren’s education, or to meet particular lifestyle needs arising from a health issue or disability, how is it fair to demand that they now forfeit the right to use those funds as planned and force them to live on that money while folk who took their world trip at age 50 or gave large monetary or asset gifts to children or grandchildren when they were 60 receive a pension?

      What you are saying is that those who work hard and save carefully, but are NOT privileged and cannot attain financial independence, should gift all the rewards of their endeavours to the taxpayer and gain no benefit from their efforts. Meanwhile, the rich and privileged enjoy massive tax concessions that cost the taxpayer much more than pensions, and the genuinely poor live in poverty. This is class warfare at its worst – a vicious attack on the upper working class and lower middle class to ensure they cannot improve their lot and all their work benefits others, not them.

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      Well said Rainey. No idea how it is that Bonny is unable to comprehend these basic facts.

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      Rainey, I agree with your view that many people can find themselves cash strapped by making poor decisions or even through no fault of their own.

      However, your rantings do not disprove Bonny’s claim that Australia is far too welfare dependent. That is a fact which can be supported by statistics.
      Treasury recently reported that the majority of superannuants died with more than half of their super balance. Many of whom (75%) were receiving welfare benefits.

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      Frank

      WELFARE DEPENDENT!!!!! What a horrible term to use.

      The Corporations may pay tax BUT their owners/shareholders, claim in back (Dividend Franking Credits)….. so very little remains in the coffers.

      NO business pays GST ….. ONLY individuals do that.

      It is the ORDINARY people who FILL the coffers of Govt!!

      It is the ORDINARY people who pay for the HOSPITALS; SCHOOLS; ROADS; INFRASTRUCTURE (bridges; NBN; etc); Politicians wages and benefits and superannuation; ALL the SERVICES & BENEFITS received (which you call WELFARE); Subsidising mega corporations with their water and energy; paying out HUGE $$$ to foreign mega corps to destroy OUR environment (Great Barrier Reef for instance); etc, etc, etc

      SO WHY the HELL can’t the ORDINARY people PROVIDE for those LESS FORTUNATE than others. WHY can’t the ORDINARY people PAY for their OWN!!!

      So, FRANK, take your USA political bulldust and shove it where it hurts!

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      Mussitate, I think what you’re saying is why not increase taxes on ORDINARY people so that WELFARE DEPENDENT people can get a fairer go.
      I disagree. I am for REWARD FOR EFFORT and LOWER TAXES, especially for ORDINARY people. So Mussitate YOU can stick your COMMUNISM and UPPER CASE!!!

  6. 0
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    So now we have both the Labor and Liberal parties that have refined the art of double crossing and back stabbing. And the Greens lead the race for sarcasm.
    We have probably nudged out Italy and Thailand with the record of recycling and renewing Prime Ministers.

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      I heard this morning we already have !! 🙂 Were the Ringers ! 🙂
      And don’t mention Nationality’s on here or someone will come along and call You Racist !! 🙂 🙂

  7. 0
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    Proves once again that there is NO Honour Amongst Thieves!!

    You should have heard them when Julia did the same to Kevin !?!?!?!?
    Now THEY did the IDENTICAL ACT against Tony.

    Once again, proves that they are just a “Bunch of Hypocrites” who only care about themselves and NONE about the Country!

    • 0
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      Well I’m sure Mr Turnbull would say it is because he cares about the country that he did it. And he may be right. Why don’t we all ‘chilax’ and let him have a fair go.

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      Patriot

      You are 100% right. There was MASS HYSTERIA by mainstream corporate media AGAINST Julia and Rudd…. nothing nice was said and the ABC did not dedicate Capital Hill to Labor, as they have now done for Liberal henchmen and bean counters to tell us how terrific the move is. NO NEGATIVES at all anywhere!
      The corporate median and even the ABC are all rosy and excited and presenting Turnbull as the wonder dog BUT do not examine or point out that Turnbull has already tagged that he will not change any of Abbott’s policies (megacorp wish list in reality).
      So in reality NOTHING has changed except we have a prettier face (?) and someone who could be called a statesman.

      It just means he can con us better than Abbott.

      Happy cyclist
      Sure thing there…. we will all fall behind someone who wimped out and gave us the MOST EXPENSIVE (triple the cost of Labor’s brilliant NBN) and USELESS NBN that will put us behind the rest of the world by 20 years instead of ahead of it by 20 years. This NBN is so useless that it is not even considered broadband in the USA because it is so slow, it is unreliable, it is OUT of DATE already AND cannot be upgraded.

      SO Happy cyclist, we should just mellow out and give this glib statesman the green light when he has already shown that he is ready to SELL out AUSTRALIA and all AUSTRALIANS.

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      Because, Happy cyclist, he’s already confirmed he will stick with Abbott’s cruel and unfair policies and nothing will change. Anyone who makes such a statement does not deserve a ”fair go”. He’s put the nails in his own coffin.

  8. 0
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    Poor Tony!

    Tony Abbott is set to go off into the sunset with an annual pension of $307,542 per year. How will he ever manage on such a tight budget?

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      He will still have a very generous super to fall back on, plus the “entitlements” attached to being a former PM.
      I could live comfortably on the allowances alone.

      It’s the ego that will hurt most. Expect another exculpatory book along Battlelines lines to make him feel better.
      An LNP/IPA Latham in the making.

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      He’ll just “Have to scrimp & Save” like pensioners do !!!
      Won’t he???

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      Calm Down ! They only get 15+ Old Age Pensions, they need it for Payments on their Investment Properties ! 🙂

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      I understand that Tony will miss out on his PM pension because he was just shy of 2yrs in office. A reduced pension for the leader of the party that is reducing part pensioner’s support – that is a wonderful example of Karma!

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      bohanka. jealously is on of the deadly sins, you will rot in hell.

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      longdistancerunner

      Grab a bit of sanity! My god how ridiculously savage you are. What the hell is wrong with you? bohanka is permitted to express his disgust at Abbott getting $307,542 per annum when Abbott fought to reduce ordinary peoples pensions….. especially considering that those ordinary people now on pensions PUT all that money into the coffers to pay Abbott’s EXCESSIVE pension!

      *Imagine*
      You are correct, he does miss out on the PM pension by THREE (3) days, I believe (haven’t checked though). The amount detailed by bohanka is WITHOUT the PM boost!

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      Oh Mussitate, talking of being savage, pot kettle. Look at your posting insulting Poms at 5.25. What an enormous chip you have on your shoulder. Where do you hail from originally may I ask?

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      Rearead and Never saw a Race Mentioned ?/ 🙂

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      particolor. You re read the posting of 5.25 and you will read the racist slur on poms.
      He was or is having a pop at he British who made Australia so please you re read.
      And he hasn’t said where he came from or his ancestors.

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      longdistancerunner

      Well, well a pom you must be. That is YOUR problem, the British did NOT make Australia…. ask any Aborigines whose ancestors were mass murdered and even in Tasmania genocide occurred. Lovely lot the poms, aye.

      On to the next thing…. whilst Britain was not looking, immigrants came from Italy, Greece (biggest number outside Greece), Vietnam, and many, many other nations. This made Australia cosmopolitan with great food, great variations of cultures and EVENTUALLY, each and every one of those cultures merged to become ONE.

      Every year we add more mixes to OUR wonderful Australian CULTURE. We DO NOT want to GO BACK to a single WHITE nation, we are NOT BRITAIN, we are NOT RACIST, we DO want more cultures than just poms and yanks…… BECAUSE we ARE AUSTRALIAN AND that is who we are ….. MULTICULTURAL mixed into ONE CULTURE… easy going and giving people a helping hand and after a few jokes ACCEPTING.

      Seriously, couldn’t think of anything worse that a WHITE Australia…. so bloody bland, just like pommy food.

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    I feel a degree of schadenfreude in Abbot getting his karmic comeuppance, but Turnbull still leads an ultraright wing party subordinate to the desires of Rupert Murdoch.

    No Australian outside the 1% can be comfortable with a Murdoch/IPA government, no matter how they pretty it up to fool the foolish.

    I suspect more fireworks. You can’t keep a determined ideologue down for long.

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    Yeee Haaa !! Finally happened, my prayers have been answered !

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      Not yet, but I did finally complete that R/C model yacht I started 10 years ago !

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      you will live to regret your prays being answered before to long wait till all the refugees get here and take and kill and rape

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      Damn – I’m still trying to finish the retirement home… then build the homebuilt aircraft…

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      Marls.. Settle down!! He’s only taking 14,000 at a time ( About a Big Country Towns worth) of the Owlhoot Dillberrys ! 🙁 🙁

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      marls

      We have hundreds of thousand 457 and other visa holders that have come to Australia by plane and illegally stayed after their visas have expired…… you know, those ECONOMIC refugees, that are here merely to STEAL Australian jobs. These people are NOT VETTED before they come to Australia because they are not requesting permanency in Australia, maybe just a holiday.

      The rape levels and the killings, so far have NOT risen, even with all those MINUSCULE number of REAL refugees WHO HAVE BEEN FULLY VETTED, who are fleeing USA bombs in Syria + ISIS who were originally funded, armed and trained by the USA and Saudi Arabia (the Saudi’s are still funding them).

      Oh! there was one NUTTER refugee from Iran (Man Haron Monis) that was NOT VETTED and that was ONLY because the USA & a USA charity (Amnesty International) said he was OKAY, even though Iran said that he was a ‘dangerous’ CRIMINAL. So much for our immigration system and our Security Agencies, doing their job for Australia…. there wasn’t even an enquiry into why this occurred, they just tried to blame the courts.

      What you are constantly SPEWING is abject RACISM and absolutely NO compassion toward your fellow man….. NOW THAT sort of ATTITUDE is NOT welcome in AUSTRALIA.

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      What’s with all the capital letters Musitate and where are you from?

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      Well – I’m from 1850’s free settlers from Germany and Ireland…. population was under 1 million then….and I agree with Mussitate.

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