One third of over 60s in poverty

Australia has a poverty rate of 33 per cent for those over 60.

One third of over 60s in poverty

The results of the 2015 Global AgeWatch Index have been released, revealing that Australia has a poverty rate of 33 per cent for those over the age of 60. 

The global list, which rates the economic and social wellbeing of people aged 60 and over in 96 countries, now places Australia at number 17 – a drop of four places from the previous year.

The new rate of 33 per cent of older Australians living below the poverty line is shocking, but it is slightly better than the 2014 figure of 35.5 per cent. Rankings aside, it’s clear that income security remains a serious issue for our Age Pensioners and older Australians in general.

Number one on the list is Switzerland, which has a 16 per cent occurrence of older people in poverty, making it the best place in the world for retirees and pensioners to live.

According to Combined Pensioners and Superannuants Association (CPSA), these results come as no surprise and, whilst poverty is a way of life for many pensioners, it’s even worse for those who aren’t yet 65 and cannot claim an Age Pension. The Newstart Allowance is at least $150 less per week than the single Age Pension.

As CPSA senior advisor Charmaine Crowe explains, “Our pension is well below the 50 per cent mark of the average wage here in Australia, and that’s why we’ve got such a high score in this report. It’s even worse for older people trying to find work later in life while living on Newstart, which is at least $150 a week less than the single age pension.”

Ms Crowe has called on the Government to ensure that the Age Pension at least covers the cost of life’s essentials, especially considering it plans to raise the pension age from 65 to 70 – a move the CPSA opposes, claiming it will lead even more people into poverty.

Australian National University’s Centre for Research on Health and Wellbeing’s Professor Hal Kendig believes that the retirement income of older women is an area of concern that needs to be addressed.

“We need to comprehensively look at superannuation over the lifespan, and for women it’s particularly difficult because many have broken labour force participation,” said Professor Kendig. “So they’re in superannuation and out of it, and they can recover the superannuation or they don’t, or they’re tied to a partner who has good superannuation or maybe they’re not by the time they get to later life.” 

The report showed that Australia is ranked 62nd when it comes to income security, falling behind countries such as Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Georgia. But, on a more positive note, we are ranked fifth in the world in terms of the health of older people.

Read more at www.sbs.com.au
Read more at www.abc.net.au

Do these figures alarm you? Are you one of the many aged over 60 living in poverty? What sort of action should the Government take to remedy this situation? Do these figures make you worry about the Government’s plan to raise the pension age?





    COMMENTS

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    Tassie
    10th Sep 2015
    9:59am
    We own our own home and have a super pension and part aged pension..it was difficult when the kids were little paying a mortgage and a super. But it's that owning you home which is the greater help..old age pensioners who don't own their own home for whatever reasons...it must be sooo difficult for them.I just couldn't do it...perhaps the government should be building more units for them at a minimum rent..
    thommo
    10th Sep 2015
    10:19am
    that would mean spending money on older australians tassie,not something this government is inclined to do,having said that we rent,having sold a house we could no longer afford,i have a pension from super,money in the bank,and still work part time with the pension,not a bad outlook if you ask me!!!
    MICK
    10th Sep 2015
    10:23am
    Saw a story last night showcasing a retired nurse who could not make ends meet. When the reporter used the word "renting" it was clear. It is as clear as mud (now) that people who lived away their incomes are now suffering whilst those who did the hard (tough) yards are coping even if not living the high life they had thought retirement was going to bring them. Very few can have it both ways.
    Old Silver Fox
    10th Sep 2015
    7:32pm
    Yes mick, bet the ones doing it hard now wish they could turn the clock back so they could save instead instead of spend.
    Anonymous
    11th Sep 2015
    5:13pm
    Actually, I wish we'd lived it up a bit because there are no rewards for doing it tough. This government has wiped out the retirement plans of tens of thousands of battlers who spent their working life scraping to save for old age.

    The bottom line is that more people are living longer and the government needs to find more money for aged pensions. Instead of making the rich pay their share, they prefer to allow the gap between rich and poor to widen and to try to somehow make the working class cover the extra cost - by making people work longer and stripping battlers who saved of the benefits of their sacrifice. Ultimately, human resources are finite. You can't get blood out of a stone. The choices are to increase poverty or tax wealth. This government has made it's choice clear, so expect the percentage of aged folk living in poverty to grow.
    Oldman Roo
    6th Dec 2016
    8:54pm
    Mick , for once I have to disagree with you , especially in view of what the pension reform will do from January 1917 . It will be the people who lived the high life and did not save that will be enjoying a considerable higher income than what I will be . I can not live with risky investments at my age and also do not think in my last few years I can ride out the highs and lows of shares . So I have to prepare myself to live in poverty or just spend my money and feel like a fool for having worked hard and saved .
    MICK
    10th Sep 2015
    10:17am
    As always those who could not or would not look towards retirement early on are in trouble. And then you have a vicious PM leading a government which lowered the assets test and is after the family home so that his government only needs to pay a pension to destitute Australians. What a system we live in seen over by vultures servicing the big end of town and refusing to collect taxes from mega rich multinationals and refusing to close the superannuation tax shelter put in place specifically for the rich.
    Whilst my wife and I prepared a long time ago we did not expect this regime to be as brutal as they have bee. Clearly older Australians who do not contribute to Liberal Party coffers are on the menu.
    oldsheila
    10th Sep 2015
    11:26am
    Mick there are reasons for not having enough super other than negligence or extravagant lifestyles. I personally have been defrauded of my super and not been able to recover it due to the perpetrator declaring bankruptcy. So I now face a very bleak retirement below the poverty line. You are a cynic
    Rae
    10th Sep 2015
    3:49pm
    My belief in human goodness is fast taking a beating too oldsheila.

    After a lifetime of work and saving to have the goalposts moved out of sight without the ability to do anything about it by uncaring greedy governments certainly adds to a cynical outlook.
    ranga
    10th Sep 2015
    11:42am
    What value determines the poverty line? Give us a figure to toss around.
    Theo1943
    10th Sep 2015
    4:12pm
    Melbourne Institute
    of Applied Economic and Social Research
    POVERTY LINES: AUSTRALIA
    ISSN 1448-0530
    MARCH QUARTER 2015
    Table 1: Poverty Lines: Australia,
    March Quarter, 2015 a, b

    Income Unit Including Housing Other than Housing
    Head in workforce $ per week $ per week
    Couple 682.45 499.14
    Head not in workforce
    Couple 585.96 402.55

    https://melbourneinstitute.com/downloads/publications/Poverty%20Lines/Poverty%20lines%20Australia%20March%202015.pdf
    Non
    10th Sep 2015
    11:46am
    my husband is about to retire& we have a rather small superannuation and the hoops that Centerlink are putting us through is unbelievable, we've worked hard to own our home plus raise our children with no hand outs plus paid taxes along the way so why do that want too include our security (Home) the PM is just a money grabbing person in power we voted him in and we can vote him out but then it will be to hard for anyone to rectify the laws etc he and his party have put in place no matter whose in power they are all the same - who will stand up for us pensioners
    Anonymous
    10th Sep 2015
    12:31pm
    much as it pains me to say I agree - there were several aspects of the first Hockey budget I agreed with but they couldn't sell it - the one I was totally opposed to was the indexation of aged pensions - I am a self funded retiree so get no pension - fair enough - but Abbott/Hockey attacking the aged pension was deplorable - and I wrote to them and told them so - I also thought it was dumb politically because when Rudd came back from Gillard and got his sugar hit of voters returning to labor the one group who stuck fast with coalition was over 60s.
    I read that 10,000 refugees will cost $1b - where is the money coming from? We are in debt our economy is not growing and why are the refugees all wanting to by pass Hungary, Italy, Greece - answer - because there are more job opportunities and welfare payments like ours - which they do not get where they came from.
    For all of that if Shorten is elected god help Australia.
    Mick - I did a little research on subsidies to Resources sector - some $18b was given to them between 2007 and 2013 (2014 figures not out till Dec) - but they paid in royalties and taxes - 121b. Also some of the $18b was normal business deductions as part of cost of doing business that all businesses can claim - this was vague but estimated to be somewhere between 4 an.d 9B
    Old Silver Fox
    10th Sep 2015
    7:39pm
    Non you are being put through the hoops by Centreline because all the scammers this country panders too have defrauded them in the past and are still at it. From experience the only person to stand up for me has been me, don't for a moment think any politician will, because as soon as you have voted for them they will forget the promises they made you.
    PensionTension
    13th Sep 2016
    4:46pm
    I read that 10,000 refugees will cost $1b - where is the money coming from? We are in debt our economy is not growing and why are the refugees all wanting to by pass Hungary, Italy, Greece - answer - because there are more job opportunities and welfare payments like ours - which they do not get where they came from.
    For all of that if Shorten is elected god help Australia.


    Amen to that, i agree!!! look if we went there do you think we would be helped "NO".....wed be showen the door..Sorry but time to shut the doors Period.....This is where i agree with Pauline..before its to late and we have acts of Terrorism here on a regular basis......Sorry guys fix your own country please!!
    particolor
    6th Dec 2016
    9:21pm
    EXACTLY !!
    fedup
    10th Sep 2015
    11:58am
    And all these boat people, refugees, all those on the dole who won't work who will contribute not a thing to this country will get all the benefits and full pension because there is too many bleeding hearts here who think that is their right to take what all of us weary tax payers have been working for all our lives.
    Happy cyclist
    10th Sep 2015
    3:12pm
    History shows that when refugees are allowed to work (and pay taxes) they can't be stopped. Its very unfair to slag-off refugees who want nothing more than to be allowed to get to work but instead who are put in dreadful camps which cost the taxpayer stacks of money. Let them settle and work - no-one will be happier to pay taxes and contribute. Don't say they jobs aren't there - again our history shows that immigrants including refugees create jobs and are very ingenious about starting up businesses. They are only costing us money because we won't let them get to work. It defies belief.
    Theo1943
    10th Sep 2015
    3:28pm
    I am an economic refugee from Europe, one of the 1953 boat people. I subsequently worked and paid taxes for 50 years. I agree with happycyclist, let them work and they will. It's the not allowing them to work that is costing us money.
    Old Silver Fox
    10th Sep 2015
    7:43pm
    Happy cyclist, your comments certainly don't apply to the current crop of Afghans and Iraquis...research out today tells us 91% are long term dole recipients. They weren't told by the government or any of the bleeding hearts that it is unAustralian to be a dole bludger.
    jackie
    14th Sep 2015
    11:44am
    Hey fedup! If you think NSA is a luxury then give up your pension and and find out. I bet now one will employ you too.
    Abby
    15th Sep 2015
    4:27pm
    In US they pay the refugees only welfare only for one year.
    PensionTension
    13th Sep 2016
    4:48pm
    Yes thats why there is a housing shortage government! Now think about it, I rock up a a boat there, they'd laugh not give me a house and income would they?...this money resources could be going to us!!!
    Oldman Roo
    6th Dec 2016
    9:13pm
    Happy Cyclist and Theo 1943 , I can not agree with your sentiments and I was one of the post war European migrants . We came here with a serious desire to work and succeed . And we were not given overgenerous handouts or soft glove treatment by the Government .We were not choosy about the type of work nor the distance we had to travel or living in a remote areas . It is this desire and endeavour , I can not see in most of the refugees and perhaps it is because they are having it too good without doing it the hard way .

    10th Sep 2015
    12:11pm
    Keep bringing in "refugees" and this number will go higher and higher, and funded by decreasing AUSTRALIANS' Aged Pensions. HVe a cigar!
    robin hood
    10th Sep 2015
    2:09pm
    Agree totally 100 per cent with you Fast Eddie they think more about refugees than their own people
    Theo1943
    10th Sep 2015
    3:30pm
    All of us white fellows started out as refugees only a generation or two ago.
    Tomaso
    10th Sep 2015
    12:16pm
    Totally agree with you Non, I'm in the same boat, and totally disgusted with the lying money grabbing rip off pollies all of them, they couldn't lye straight in bed the mongrels.
    BrianP
    10th Sep 2015
    12:19pm
    Fact - A very high number of seniors have worked hard, done the right thing by paying into super funds and put aside what they can for retirement.

    Unfortunately many are now living in poverty because super funds lost their money on the stock exchange during economic downturns. The small funds that are left are insufficient to provide much income.

    For a large percentage of seniors the compulsory super scheme has failed.
    Anonymous
    10th Sep 2015
    12:37pm
    My understanding is there are still some 198 super funds out there. While you may be right we really won't have a basis to compare until 2031 - 40 years after compulsory super was introduced - then if average super payouts can offer superannuants and amount greater than aged pension then it is a pass. However it may still fail becauseKeating believed that for this to happen super had to eventually be 15% contribution - its still stuck at 9.25% (however all public servants,military and many in big business are getting 15% now - they should be OK). The GFC hit everyone hard - in my case nealry half my super went down but I stuck with my plan and over the next 5 years it all came back then some.
    Theo1943
    10th Sep 2015
    3:32pm
    I got to retire in the middle of the GFC. Absolutely wonderful.
    Rae
    10th Sep 2015
    3:56pm
    The old way of paying off the home and then perhaps a holiday home ready to sell up or live on the rent worked far better.

    If you moved into the retirement house the rent from the family home would be more than most super funds return each fortnight.

    The fund managers and funds are the only ones doing well out of super as well as the government getting 15% of the returns.
    Abby
    15th Sep 2015
    4:31pm
    You are spot on Rae
    Superannuation only pays big business
    Snowwhite
    10th Sep 2015
    12:36pm
    Mick why do you always imply people who are not as well off as yourself wasted their incomes over the years and didn't save?? There are cases where life hasn't been as successful as yours!! People do have catastrophic events in their life which isn't their fault and choose to look after serious injured children for life for example! I'm sick to death of some people deciding that if you don't own a home you've wasted your life on holidays etc etc.
    The ugliest thing that I have ever seen is a human being without compassion
    migmag
    10th Sep 2015
    2:22pm
    That really caught my attention, your last sentence, and how I agree with you. Nothing pleasant about people withot compassion and there seem to be so many here making unpleasant and ill informed comments!
    Foxy
    10th Sep 2015
    2:38pm
    Agrees 100% with the above two comments! Divorce later in life is also a main factor for pensioners doing it tough! Maybe they can build a few extra home/units for poor old Aussie pensioners and also our 100,000 homeless - when planning the homes required for the intake of the 12,000 refugee families???

    After all some Australian families have only been waiting on Dept. Housing lists for 10-15 years!! Pensioners also better not expect any increase in pensions for years now that Centrelink will be funding 12,000 extra people from scratch? Amazing how the Govt. can "find" money when pressed hard enough???
    Adrianus
    12th Sep 2015
    9:48am
    Snowwhite I was thinking exactly what you wrote when I read some of the above posts.
    People have varying circumstances and there will always be some people who get off to a rough start in life and never stop treading water.
    BJ
    10th Sep 2015
    1:21pm
    while its great that Australia are good humanitarians how do we afford to let 12,000 more refugees into the country that we have to house / clothe / feed and support when 33% of our elderly live in poverty I don't get it where does the government all or a sudden find the money
    robin hood
    10th Sep 2015
    2:11pm
    its amazing how the government can find money for refugees isn't it..but then Tony Abbott was pressured into accepting them by the opposition
    Anonymous
    10th Sep 2015
    5:42pm
    This is only a vote-getting ploy by the government who cares as little for "refugees" as they do their own citizens. Charity should start at home. Federal government money would be wiser spent by dropping bombs on Isis.
    Mags
    10th Sep 2015
    1:51pm
    One things for sure us oldies sure know how to whinge and bitch
    Not Senile Yet!
    10th Sep 2015
    1:58pm
    Oh Yes...Just what we need to be told......that the over 60's are living below the Poverty Line!!!!!
    Like all those that have been retrenched in the so-called downsizing.....led by the Government setting the example and getting rid of the DEAD WOOD!!!!
    Great....now Life Choices thinks that we are not aware of the Governments stealth against the elderly.....raising the retirement age wasn't about we are living longer nor about working longer....it was all about NOT paying a Pension when the Dole is $150 a week LESS.....thus a saving for the Government......while they take their overseas jaunts and fly around in Helicopters or take planes with their family under fraudulent perks!!!!!
    $150 p.w. for each Baby boomer unemployed prematurely between 60 and 70...10years .....1.5Million and counting is a massive saving that only comes by deliberately putting those unable to stay employed......mostly through the very Free Trade Policies that the Government has entered into blindly......into the category of living below the Poverty Line!!!!!
    Bloody absurd!!!
    Not to mention that the elderly all spend what they receive.....so it becomes a massive HIT to the economy as well......even the little business man gets hurt.....as the extra coffee and sandwich are no longer affordable!!!!
    As to all the Wankers on here stating it is their own fault if they did not save for retirement......what a purely repetitive of Propaganda think to state.....sold by the very Party in Government itself!!!!
    People get divorced....have to sell...can't afford to buy again....get sick....have medical challenges with children etc etc. Not all of life's challenges happen because you are lazy!!!!
    Divorces can get ugly and costly....and most happen because one decides the others fate.....cheating and wanting access to the marriages equity....are not something one of the two can stop!!!!
    What a bunch of small minded judgemental mob we have become!!!
    More and More we are becoming a Smaller Version of the USA that is governed by Greed is Good!!!!!
    It certainly appears that ALL the Party puppets think that way.....Family Parties be Dammed!!!!
    The Last straw is wanting access to the Family Home as a Asset to be Deemed or justified!!!!
    What a disappointment BOTH Parties have become!!!!
    As to the relaxation of the Laws to make people accountable for the Blatant Money Grab into Super and Retirement.......Please!!!!
    Maybe we are Gullible as they believe we are!!!!
    Cos everyone still believes that the Party Puppets do not have a vested interest and still care about the Country and their Voters!!!
    I for one....do not think that!!!
    They have all become Pigs at the Trough and want to change Australia into a Yankee State or Mini Version of it!!!!!
    Stop Voting the Corrupt Party puppets into Parliament!!!!!
    Theo1943
    10th Sep 2015
    3:35pm
    The pigs have been in charge since 1984!
    retiree
    10th Sep 2015
    1:58pm
    WHAT ? ONLY 33% in poverty the pollies, "advocates" and representatives for pensioners will be saying. Must work harder to achieve the target of 33% not in poverty. Need the money freed up from pensions for more refugees, pay increases for Pollies, Melbourne tram and train drivers.

    Agree with BrianP comments, and add that Compulsory Super has been the biggest con to shift risk from the Govt to individuals ( except for Pollie super ).
    Rae
    10th Sep 2015
    4:03pm
    Yes the recent legislative changes don't apply to Commonwealth or Veteran pensions.


    Jackie must be terrifying them.
    Circum
    10th Sep 2015
    9:19pm
    Unfortunately you are correct Retiree.Compulsory super has turned into a con by the Govt.The original intention was that super was to SUPPLEMENT the age pension,not to replace it.But with the super pot growing governments cant resist in depriving retirees of the full value of those savings by changing the rules and reducing pension availability.Apparently now they tell us that "super is your money".Pity the taxes we paid towards pensions is no longer considered our money.
    Not Senile Yet!
    10th Sep 2015
    2:04pm
    That is 1.5 Million growing to 2 Million X $130 X 52Wks X 10yrs.....You do the Maths......forget that it saves the Government.....it is money removed from the Economy because most spend it as they get it in old age!!!
    THAT IS A MASSIVE HIT....in any person's language!!!!
    Totally absurd economic Policy!!!
    robin hood
    10th Sep 2015
    2:08pm
    why isn't the government helping these people instead of pouring millions into refugees??????
    migmag
    10th Sep 2015
    2:32pm
    Refugees are the result of making war. Tony Abbott wants to send more troops in - the government wouldn't help pensioners even if there was no war or refugees otherwise they would have done so already.
    sidney70
    10th Sep 2015
    4:51pm
    When I was younger I didnt trust banks ,so I stuffed all my life savings in my mattress. I am now older and needed a new mattress that would be better for my athritis. I Have Dementure and forgot where my money was. I traded my mattress in on a new one. If anyone has my old mattress could they bring it back. I am now over sixty and living in poverty.
    Anonymous
    10th Sep 2015
    8:55pm
    very funny - the best I've read today
    Foxy
    12th Sep 2015
    5:24pm
    ...least ya still got ya sense of humour! lol lol lol
    Peterrj
    11th Sep 2015
    2:02am
    Aussies living in poverty??? I find that very hard to believe when we can afford to resettle countless refugees???? What's Shorten promise? 30,000 refugees each year when he gains power??? And that's not counting the Syrian refugee commitment!!! So no, I don't accept the poverty claim ... Because if true then we surely could not afford to take no so many refugees? No?
    Ritza
    11th Sep 2015
    6:16pm
    Hold on a minute... there are also we single people... with one wage .. and the ability to miss out on any benefits ( first home grant etc)
    i have paid off my house, have a small pension and live a quiet life. I prepared as best I could for my retirement. I volunteer and pay my bills

    Now I am told I am greedy for owning this house and this horrible government wants to change the goal posts. Really phony Tony ?????
    JAID
    12th Sep 2015
    8:15am
    Finding balance across the breadth of the population cannot be easy. Our history and life choices may be large in our experience but can hardly be relevent in the face of the need to keep an entire community healthy, satisfactorily comfortable (and happy,) mobile at least in respect of information and communication and in a progressive state.

    Limiting the burden on our children also maximises their potential.

    Poverty as a statistic is a comparative thing and takes no account of potential for other ways of addressing the values which are most important to balance and wellbeing. Where there is respect for all others, that is where enquiry would be best placed.
    worker
    8th Nov 2015
    5:16pm
    I do not hear of any Australian citizens employees members of parliament in poverty, I would suggest this reason is two fold (A)good wagers payed whiles in the job (B)after leaving the job parliament getting life time forms of pensions and perks including additional superannuation.

    THE ONLY FORMER EMPLOYEES OF A ENPLOYER TO BE PAYED FOR LIFE AFTER LEAVING THE JOB.
    HOW MUCH WEEKLY/YEARLY IS THIS AT FEDERIAL ,STATES AND TERRORTY LEVELS ????
    I NOTE HOLDENS ,FORDS AND TOYOTA WILL NOT BE PAYING LIFE TIME FORMS OF PENSIONS AND OTHER PERKS TO THOSES THEY ARE PUTTING OFF
    Remember no vote was sort from you the Australian citizens on this greedy matter but it was put in place by your employee's then self of parliament. Another reason taxation needs to increase and pension reduced because someone has to pay and who would this be .
    Peking
    8th Jan 2016
    1:07pm
    Given that the bulk of "savings" identified so far target the sick and elderly, we should send a strong message to the Coalition that the election must follow the budget, not precede it.

    If,as expected, the Coalition is elected with majorities in both houses, we would have to worry about what the budget would do for pensioners vs companies and very high wealth people paying little or no tax
    particolor
    19th Sep 2016
    3:07pm
    Give up Mate !! Its a Lost Cause :-(
    particolor
    13th Sep 2016
    8:52pm
    Make that A Half of all people over 60 after I just read the pittance increase for 20 Sept !!:-(
    John
    19th Sep 2016
    11:18am
    I'm sick to death of people saying why should the rich care for the poor people when we was working we have to pay for the poor people let's get things in perspective let's start with the government let's cook that pensions which starts off at 150,000 For the rest of the lives so even get 250,000 nothing when I pension only gets maybe 22 let's cancel all the free flights for the politicians let's cancel all chauffeur driven vehicles and this is just the start how much you think will say then billions I'll be living in car for the last two years throughout the challenge to any politician to come and live in my shoes for one day live in the real world you bastards
    particolor
    19th Sep 2016
    3:04pm
    Just finished hearing on the Radio that Beard was trying to take Obeadyeyes Parliamentary Pension off him for Being a Crook !! I wonder if he would like to take a Look in the Mirror while he's there !!
    :-( :-(
    Pamiea
    19th Sep 2016
    1:03pm
    Hey I wonder if the Government is behind this as it came from a Government hospital. My elderly mum aged 94 had a fall and was taken to hospital with a suspected broken rib and was in a lot of pain. One of the nursing staff told me they often don't resuscitate people over the age of 80 due to further complications caused by resuscitation!! I wonder if that further complication is the Government having to pay them a pension until they eventually pass away?!!
    particolor
    19th Sep 2016
    2:59pm
    Of coarse it is :-( :-( I'm glad its Pittance Day on Wednesday ! I'm Skint !! :-( :-(
    Pamiea
    19th Sep 2016
    3:11pm
    When people put comments on issues through Your Life Choices is there any chance they can reread their comments and correct their bad English so we can get an idea what they are trying to say please. A few sentences ie with fullstops would be helpful to.
    particolor
    19th Sep 2016
    3:39pm
    Ill shout them a few ....... That's all I can Afford. < LOOK Full Stop. :-) :-)
    particolor
    13th Dec 2016
    9:30pm
    One Third Of Over 60s In Poverty...
    TELL US ABOUT IT !! :-( :-( :-(